Home » Dancing in a ring (a response to a query posed by Norm Geras)

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Dancing in a ring (a response to a query posed by Norm Geras) — 12 Comments

  1. I’ve been trying to find a way to deal with my circle dancing friends for some time now. Some of them are literally very into circle dancing and ideologically related activities. Others are into conspiracy theory – like Bush caused the Tsunami with a mini nuke, and brought the Twin Towers down and so forth. I have been coming to the same conclusion – it is twisting everything to fit the ideology no matter what. Circle dancer: “War never works.” Me: “What about WW2?” Circle dancer: “Oh, that’s different.” My good friend the conspiracy theorist (and that is said without irony) seems to be prefer the most outlandish ideas to seeing that sometimes his belief system is failing to explain what is happening. I think what is important is that the denial is pretty extreme in both of the above cases. I do denial too, but stop myself fairly quickly when I catch myself – the problem here is the extent of the denial. Terminal denial as opposed to – well – say situational denial. Part of it may be Stockholm syndrome- particularly when you see so many who are emotionally on the side of the enemy – regardless of how loudly they clear their throat. I also sense that a lot of it is simply defending a received collective worldview that has not been critically examined. I mean what is taught in schools and colleges and what might be termed the liberal consensus since WW2 – and I say that knowingly as someone who grew up a card carrying member of the Eastern Intellectual Establishment. Bush so obviously and unattractively contradicts that world view that he is reflexively and totally rejected rather than just selectively rejected where his views are sharply divergent. Lgude

  2. It’s amazing how many people ‘run to mummy’ when you talk about Halabja, and al-Anfal, and say that ‘Churchill wanted to gas the Kurds too’.
    It’s worth noting here that whatever Winston said (and he did come out with some crap at times), the British did not use chemical weapons against rebel Iraqis during the 1920s.

  3. Anonymous,

    I do have one correction to make. My cutoff date for the Iraqi civilian casualties is off by two months… It should have been May 1, 2003 NOT March 1, 2003.

    Sorry for the error.

    I have double checked all other figures and they are correct.

  4. Anonymous,

    You said: “Brian, Are you really arguing relative morality as it relates to historical examples? That body count is in some way determinate in terms of justice?”

    No, I am not saying that because we are killing fewer civilians we are more moral. But I was pointing out that you were wrong when you said that our military had a “lack of concern for civilian safety”. That is a flat out lie. Our military has more concern for civilian safety than any military in the history of war. They have avoided bombing legitimate military targets for the simple reason that it was deemed too dangerous for civilians in the area. They delayed entering mosques until the Iraqi security forces were trained and ready to do it so that our “infidel” soldiers wouldn’t “defile” their “holy” firebase.

    You said: “Even if your figures were accurate, which they are not”

    Actually, my numbers are right on the mark. The Iraqi civilian casualties are based on various sources but one of the most reliable I’ve found is the left-wing http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ which has been very consistent in the manner in which they count “casualties”. Their figures include 7350 deaths prior to March 1st, as well as those killed by the opposition. I was not able to reliably sort the data to differentiate between causes, so I left them comingled.

    The figures for other conflicts are in the historical record.

    “My point was if ones motive for invasion was to free a people would a viable tactic be to soften up your target through intensive bombing? How would a regime of sanctions which resulted in the death of tens of thousands of children benefit the cause of liberation?”

    If you are going to have an invasion, then yes, you should bomb first. We bombed the crap out of France before D-day. We tried sanctions hoping to avoid an invasion. Perhaps we should have just attacked Iraq in 1991, but after liberating Kuwait we thought the mission was done. We were wrong. Sorry. Or perhaps you are suggesting that we shouldn’t have gone there in the first place, in which case Kuwait and perhaps all of Arabia would now belong to Saddam.

    You said: “My point about freedom and capitalism was a bit oscure, sorry,but as a socialist I believe capitalism to be a totalitarian system (hence,not free)in that totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society,but a non-terroristic economic-technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested interests.”

    Actually, all of your definitions of “totalitarian” are wrong. Totalitarian systems are centralized control. While much of capitalism is over-regulated it is far from centralized control. Perhaps you are correct as I have often thought that my “need” for a new Harley was being manipulated, but then again, maybe you are so enamoured of the socialist Utopian ideal that you have never been able to see that once your socialist society is actually begun it never lives up to that ideal. I’m sure that somebody waiting in the bread line during a Moscow winter felt like he was in heaven, or perhaps the Chinese peasant boy who won’t be able to find a wife in 20 years because of the 4:1 gender imbalance, or the millions of North Koreans who starved to death during the famine.

  5. Fantastic post. I know liberals who can’t express enough disgust with Bush and the U.S… these same people are then strangely silent on the abuses of Saddam, the slaughter in Sudan, and the abuses of the UN. There is indeed a sort of willful ignorance going on, expressed perfectly in the “circle dance” metaphor you discussed.

  6. Brian, Are you really arguing relative morality as it relates to historical examples? That body count is in some way determinate in terms of justice? Even if your figures were accurate, which they are not,is there some way they relate to Stalin or Ghengis Khan I just don’t get? My point was if ones motive for invasion was to free a people would a viable tactic be to soften up your target through intensive bombing? How would a regime of sanctions which resulted in the death of tens of thousands of children benefit the cause of liberation? How would it fit into your scheme of numerical moral relativity? My point about freedom and capitalism was a bit oscure, sorry,but as a socialist I believe capitalism to be a totalitarian system (hence,not free)in that totalitarian is not only a terroristic political coordination of society,but a non-terroristic economic-technical coordination which operates through the manipulation of needs by vested interests. Not to equate this with the brutality of Baathist fascism but simply to question the system which we intend to impose on Iraqi society. The “police in the head” is also a little obscure but it has to do with his same system of “molecular, integral,invisible control”(Debord) of the modern state.As for anonymous #1’s ant-globalization violence, I believe you underestimate the state/ corporate violence at which the protest is directed.Not to condone any violence, but yesterday over three hundred thousand people died of causes related to malnutrition worldwide.They are “violent” deaths.

  7. Hi Neo-neo, your blog looks fine! (Ever visit mine at Liberty Dad?)

    The Left is today composed of “anti-Vietnam War” protesters, and their progeny.
    In Vietnam, the US was fighting evil communism (and doing a lousy job, and using an immoral draft).

    The Left wanted the US to leave; the US left. The evil commies murdered and murdered by the thousands and hundreds of thousands — murdered civilians who were, basically, no longer resisting nor being supplied with equipment.

    The Left, perhaps yourself and many, many friends, has steadfastly refused to honestly accept their support fot the victory of evil communism. Their denial has become morally corrupting–the only evil they can conceive of is the evil Hitler fascism. So that’s what they call anybody who disagrees.

    (Oh, and the other evil is the Spanish Inquisition … no one expects the Spanish Inquisition, our cheif weapon is surprise, and fear, …)

  8. Anonymous #2,

    You said: “Many of us marching during the phase of intensive bombing,cluster bombs,smart bombs striking wedding parties, depleted uranium,shock and awe,were as alarmed at military tacticsand lack of concern for civilian safety as we were disgusted at the lies of the administration used to justify their actions.”

    I just want to point out a few facts:

    1) World War I had 13 million civilian deaths.
    2) 80,000 Japanese were killed by the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima Aug. 6, 1945.
    3) The Nazis killed six million Jews
    4) Millions of Chinese died at the hands of the Japanese.
    5) The Khmer Rouge killed two million people.
    6) 800,000 civilians died in the systematic slaughter of men, women, and children in the Rwanda Civil War in 1994.

    and finally…

    7) Since March 1, 2003 there have been between 9,883 and 12,258 civilian deaths from all causes including coalition military action, insurgent violence, and disease.

    Admittedly, the conflict in Iraq is not of the scale that some of the other wars have been, so let’s compare it to Vietnam.

    According to an official release by the Hanoi government dated 4 April 1995, there were 4,000,000 civilian deaths during the war from 1954 to 1975 split about evenly between north and south. That’s more than 521 per day.

    In Iraq, since March 1, 2003, civilian casualties average out to less than 17 per day. And keep in mind that the US doesn’t use car bombs.

    You also said: “No more secret police, now the policeman will be in your head.No more mass graves, now the graves will be those buried by capital, and terror and your new freedom.”

    What in the hell are you talking about? Don’t wish for freedom because capitalism is bad?

    For such a long post you sure didn’t say much that was very meaningful.

  9. Version available at smallprecautions:

    Liberal Hawks and the Fight Against Fascism
    A Reply To Norm Geras’ Critique of the Left on Iraq
    (“The Reductions of the Left,” Dissent, Winter 2005)
    Bill Barnes

    (This is a compilation, revision and rearrangement of my side of a series of email exchanges with Norm Geras over the week of Feb 7, 2005)

  10. Sorry for the test and for the anonymity, I am unable to complete the registration process due to screen configuration.I read Norms reductionism article in Dissent, reacted poorly to what I felt was an unfair attack and sent him a regrettably abrasive comment.He now,quite understandably, does not desire any further correspondence, but I check out his site fascinated at this liberal pro-war sentiment I had no idea existed.This has led me to pro-war socialist sites, Iraqi bloggers, US soldier blogs (all new to me) and now to your site via Norms attention to it.As a socialist involved in the peace movement (it is my habit to list contradictions, anti-war/ peace being #1)for over thirty five years I admit to mixed feelings as I marched in D.C. in the huge rallys both leading up to and following the invasion of Iraq.Despite the easy generalization(indeed, reduction)that anti-war slogans did not include anti-Saadam sentiment there was in fact a great deal of internal ideological wrestling going on.Many of us marching during the phase of intensive bombing,cluster bombs,smart bombs striking wedding parties, depleted uranium,shock and awe,were as alarmed at military tacticsand lack of concern for civilian safety as we were disgusted at the lies of the administration used to justify their actions.As a marxist I knew we should be marching in support of all oppressed people,including those in our own nation, rather than this bourgeois-democratic analysis of blood for oil etc.But this is yet another contradiction when trying to build solidarity in an advanced capitalism.I saw 9/11 not as an epiphaninal event but as another in a long line of spectacular spectacles (the broadcast of nuclear tests on Bikini, the fall of the wall, images with terrible impact).Terror was the property of the state (your own hero, Winston Churchill said”I do not understand this squemishness about the use of gas.. I am strongly in favor of using poisened gas against uncivilized tribes(recalcitrant Arabs) to spread a lively terror”)
    The young Iraqi blogger said”at least now I have hope” Are you able to encourage that hope? If your patient wakes up and says thankyou doctor, I no longer feel that terrible pain,will you tell him that is because you have removed both his legs at the hip? Perhaps we are all dancing in a ring and as Adorno so aptly put it” we are all free to dance and enjoy ourselves…but freedom to choose an ideology, since ideology always reflects economic coercion,everywhere proves to be freedom to choose what is always the same”. One in seven Iraqis participated in the oppression, was an informer etc..collaberated in some way,it was not the power of one evil man as much as we would like to reduce it to such. Iam not casting stones, but it is tose “mind -forged manacles” I truly fear and the new manacles your new friend Bush wishes to introduce. No more secret police, now the policeman will be in your head.No more mass graves, now the graves will be those buried by capital, and terror and your new freedom.
    Will you support a new Platt amendment ,the US (maybe Israel)may exercise the right to interfere for the preservation of Iraqi independence? To maintain bases? Norm dismisses the leftist obsession with imperialism as reductionist.So how will they not be a colony? I do not wish to dance in this ring, nor on this dance floor at all.

  11. Tnanks for this fine meditation on the extraordinary political extremism that has overcome so many in recent years (not just since 9-11 – the anti-globalization violence of the late 90s and the hysteria over the 2000 Florida elections seem to have been precursors). To watch a friend, an ebulliant standard-model-liberal suburban soccer mom turn into a raging fanatic Bush-hater – now that’s a truly frightening experience.

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