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	<title>Comments on: Grieving parents, revisited</title>
	<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 06:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: goy</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3649</link>
		<author>goy</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3649</guid>
					<description>- &lt;I&gt;I don't know what name to give this thing; perhaps it's wisdom.&lt;/I&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;neo-', if I might, I'd like to submit that the thing you may be searching for here is 'familiarity'.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Years ago, my wife was driven quite literally beyond hope with the loss of both parents, six months apart. Numerous family dynamics exacerbated this loss, but none so viciously as the reversal of roles that had taken place during their lives, turning parent into child and child into parent in many ways. This reversal led to her never having 'left home', but instead to her remaining--to support and care for both parents (as well as a sibling) through elder years, strokes, seizures, terminal cancer, sepsis, ICU, hospice and finally, death.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Effective therapy was required to get beyond this monumental trauma and continues today. As explained to me, coping with this involves understanding that in some ways the experience was very much like the loss of a child &lt;I&gt;and&lt;/I&gt; a parent at the same time, and that recovery required, among other elements, the passage of time.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Having spent 40 years in their presence, that presence became the normal, dependable, bedrock reality of her life. Their absence is alien, grating and saddening in every way, and the notion is that many years will have to pass without them before that absence begins to approximate anything remotely resembling normal.   She needs to become &lt;I&gt;familiar&lt;/I&gt; with life without them, which involves making years of new memories that don't include them as active, day-to-day participants.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Having spent 8+ years of my life as part of this process prior to their passing, 6 years ago, I can vouch for the validity of this idea in our case.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;So perhaps the metaphor holds, at least inasmuch as time may heal all wounds, but the scars from the deepest of those will never fade at all and will never be anything but agonizing to touch. And perhaps that's as it should be.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;As a postscript, and to your notes on Walsh, Lightner, et al., I'm glad to relate that today's memory-making finds my wife well into the process of turning her High School education into a Psy. D., with planned certifications in Gerontology, Transgender and Family Counseling, and Male Victimization, and I anxiously await the experience of seeing the monuments and poetry I know she will create in this field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>- <i>I don&#8217;t know what name to give this thing; perhaps it&#8217;s wisdom.</i></p>
<p>neo-&#8217;, if I might, I&#8217;d like to submit that the thing you may be searching for here is &#8216;familiarity&#8217;.</p>
<p>Years ago, my wife was driven quite literally beyond hope with the loss of both parents, six months apart. Numerous family dynamics exacerbated this loss, but none so viciously as the reversal of roles that had taken place during their lives, turning parent into child and child into parent in many ways. This reversal led to her never having &#8216;left home&#8217;, but instead to her remaining&#8211;to support and care for both parents (as well as a sibling) through elder years, strokes, seizures, terminal cancer, sepsis, ICU, hospice and finally, death.</p>
<p>Effective therapy was required to get beyond this monumental trauma and continues today. As explained to me, coping with this involves understanding that in some ways the experience was very much like the loss of a child <i>and</i> a parent at the same time, and that recovery required, among other elements, the passage of time.</p>
<p>Having spent 40 years in their presence, that presence became the normal, dependable, bedrock reality of her life. Their absence is alien, grating and saddening in every way, and the notion is that many years will have to pass without them before that absence begins to approximate anything remotely resembling normal.   She needs to become <i>familiar</i> with life without them, which involves making years of new memories that don&#8217;t include them as active, day-to-day participants.</p>
<p>Having spent 8+ years of my life as part of this process prior to their passing, 6 years ago, I can vouch for the validity of this idea in our case.</p>
<p>So perhaps the metaphor holds, at least inasmuch as time may heal all wounds, but the scars from the deepest of those will never fade at all and will never be anything but agonizing to touch. And perhaps that&#8217;s as it should be.</p>
<p>As a postscript, and to your notes on Walsh, Lightner, et al., I&#8217;m glad to relate that today&#8217;s memory-making finds my wife well into the process of turning her High School education into a Psy. D., with planned certifications in Gerontology, Transgender and Family Counseling, and Male Victimization, and I anxiously await the experience of seeing the monuments and poetry I know she will create in this field.</p>
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		<title>By: Dymphna</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3650</link>
		<author>Dymphna</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3650</guid>
					<description>Mainly, I want copies so I can touch them and move around them. It's needs some tactile reference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mainly, I want copies so I can touch them and move around them. It&#8217;s needs some tactile reference.</p>
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		<title>By: Dymphna</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3651</link>
		<author>Dymphna</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3651</guid>
					<description>Neoneo, you are very kind. Poetry heals the soul, the heart, the mind.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;When Norm Geras asked what my favorite quote was, I immediately thought of the one from Flaubert:&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;"words are instruments we use to beat out tunes on broken drums &lt;BR/&gt;for bears to dance to, when all we really want to do is move the stars to pity."&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;When I was able to write "Your Death" to Shelagh, my poem about her leaving and my grief, I knew I'd passed a landmark...when I get a chance I'll find it and post it on Neighborhood.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;The statues are stunning. I went to your post and looked for a long time but I didn't comment. Too moved. Wish they had copies you could order..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neoneo, you are very kind. Poetry heals the soul, the heart, the mind.</p>
<p>When Norm Geras asked what my favorite quote was, I immediately thought of the one from Flaubert:</p>
<p>&#8220;words are instruments we use to beat out tunes on broken drums <br />for bears to dance to, when all we really want to do is move the stars to pity.&#8221;</p>
<p>When I was able to write &#8220;Your Death&#8221; to Shelagh, my poem about her leaving and my grief, I knew I&#8217;d passed a landmark&#8230;when I get a chance I&#8217;ll find it and post it on Neighborhood.</p>
<p>The statues are stunning. I went to your post and looked for a long time but I didn&#8217;t comment. Too moved. Wish they had copies you could order..</p>
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		<title>By: Baron Bodissey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3652</link>
		<author>Baron Bodissey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3652</guid>
					<description>Richard Aubrey -- you're right about Kipling. "Gethsemane" is another poem that I think directly relates to the death of his son. At the risk of incurring Neo's wrath, I'll post it here (it's short):&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;The Garden called Gethsemane&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;In Picardy it was,&lt;BR/&gt;And there the people came to see&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;The English soldiers pass.&lt;BR/&gt;We used to pass -- we used to pass&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;Or halt, as it might be,&lt;BR/&gt;And ship our masks in case of gas&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;Beyond Gethsemane.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;The Garden called Gethsemane,&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;It held a pretty lass,&lt;BR/&gt;But all the time she talked to me&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;I prayed my cup might pass.&lt;BR/&gt;The officer sat on the chair,&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;The men lay on the grass,&lt;BR/&gt;And all the time we halted there&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;I prayed my cup might pass.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It didn’t pass -- it didn’t pass --&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;It didn’t pass from me.&lt;BR/&gt;I drank it when we met the gas&lt;BR/&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;Beyond Gethsemane!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Aubrey &#8212; you&#8217;re right about Kipling. &#8220;Gethsemane&#8221; is another poem that I think directly relates to the death of his son. At the risk of incurring Neo&#8217;s wrath, I&#8217;ll post it here (it&#8217;s short):</p>
<p>The Garden called Gethsemane<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In Picardy it was,<br />And there the people came to see<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The English soldiers pass.<br />We used to pass &#8212; we used to pass<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Or halt, as it might be,<br />And ship our masks in case of gas<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Beyond Gethsemane.</p>
<p>The Garden called Gethsemane,<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It held a pretty lass,<br />But all the time she talked to me<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I prayed my cup might pass.<br />The officer sat on the chair,<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The men lay on the grass,<br />And all the time we halted there<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I prayed my cup might pass.</p>
<p>It didn’t pass &#8212; it didn’t pass &#8211;<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It didn’t pass from me.<br />I drank it when we met the gas<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Beyond Gethsemane!</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3653</link>
		<author>Richard Aubrey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3653</guid>
					<description>I suppose we all struggle with the question of whether we want our kids to be live cowards or dead heroes.&lt;BR/&gt;If I were to try to be objective, it would be in remembering the maxim that a hero dies but once, a coward dies a thousand times.  Would I want to watch my kid dying at the memory of having been a coward?&lt;BR/&gt;Which is better for him?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose we all struggle with the question of whether we want our kids to be live cowards or dead heroes.<br />If I were to try to be objective, it would be in remembering the maxim that a hero dies but once, a coward dies a thousand times.  Would I want to watch my kid dying at the memory of having been a coward?<br />Which is better for him?</p>
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		<title>By: Assistant Village Idiot</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3654</link>
		<author>Assistant Village Idiot</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3654</guid>
					<description>We do indeed understand our ancestors' grief only at a distance.  They lost children, spouses, parents, with much greater frequency.  Keeping the genealogy and wandering through cemeteries will often bring you up against an unimaginable grief: a mother of six dying in childbirth; three of five children swept away in a single week of epidemic.  It is numbing.  &lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It is much the same in learning about the Holocaust or the Gulag, or in my case, the persecution of Baptist friends in Romania.  People endure the unendurable all the time.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I have four sons, nearly all grown.  None have been in the military (yet).  But each of them at one time or another has had to knowingly walk into situations of heightened danger.  I recall the first time I choked out to my oldest "You may be called upon to be heroic.  Be ready," trying to transfer all my thin courage to him.  I wondered if I were some sort of madman to even say such things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We do indeed understand our ancestors&#8217; grief only at a distance.  They lost children, spouses, parents, with much greater frequency.  Keeping the genealogy and wandering through cemeteries will often bring you up against an unimaginable grief: a mother of six dying in childbirth; three of five children swept away in a single week of epidemic.  It is numbing.  </p>
<p>It is much the same in learning about the Holocaust or the Gulag, or in my case, the persecution of Baptist friends in Romania.  People endure the unendurable all the time.</p>
<p>I have four sons, nearly all grown.  None have been in the military (yet).  But each of them at one time or another has had to knowingly walk into situations of heightened danger.  I recall the first time I choked out to my oldest &#8220;You may be called upon to be heroic.  Be ready,&#8221; trying to transfer all my thin courage to him.  I wondered if I were some sort of madman to even say such things.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3655</link>
		<author>Richard Aubrey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3655</guid>
					<description>I notified next of kin a couple of times when I was in the Army.&lt;BR/&gt;Three of four parents had heart attacks within one year of finding out.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Kipling's son had bad eyes.  Kipling pulled strings to get him in and commissioned.  He was killed in 1915, fighting with the Irish Guards (of whom Kipling wrote a poem).  One of his friends said the last he'd seen of the young man, he was crying from the pain of a mouth wound.  I expect his wound was less painful than his father's, and sooner over.&lt;BR/&gt;Try Kipling's "Epitaphs from The Great War"  There's something for everybody.  &lt;BR/&gt;Or see the throw-away lines about lost children in "Daughter of The Regiment" and "Without Benefit of Clergy".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notified next of kin a couple of times when I was in the Army.<br />Three of four parents had heart attacks within one year of finding out.</p>
<p>Kipling&#8217;s son had bad eyes.  Kipling pulled strings to get him in and commissioned.  He was killed in 1915, fighting with the Irish Guards (of whom Kipling wrote a poem).  One of his friends said the last he&#8217;d seen of the young man, he was crying from the pain of a mouth wound.  I expect his wound was less painful than his father&#8217;s, and sooner over.<br />Try Kipling&#8217;s &#8220;Epitaphs from The Great War&#8221;  There&#8217;s something for everybody.  <br />Or see the throw-away lines about lost children in &#8220;Daughter of The Regiment&#8221; and &#8220;Without Benefit of Clergy&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Grey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3656</link>
		<author>Tom Grey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3656</guid>
					<description>I think the world may become more peaceful with more single child families -- spoiled, loved, exclusive attention from parents.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Yet it may become worse, as spoiled kids become spoiled adults, unable to practice compromises they never had to do before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the world may become more peaceful with more single child families &#8212; spoiled, loved, exclusive attention from parents.</p>
<p>Yet it may become worse, as spoiled kids become spoiled adults, unable to practice compromises they never had to do before.</p>
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		<title>By: colagirl</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3657</link>
		<author>colagirl</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3657</guid>
					<description>I've always thought one of the best pieces dealing with parents' grief over the wartime loss of a child is Kipling's "The Children"--he lost a son in World War I and oh, my god, it shows in this poem.  I can't quote it--could barely stand to read it once.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always thought one of the best pieces dealing with parents&#8217; grief over the wartime loss of a child is Kipling&#8217;s &#8220;The Children&#8221;&#8211;he lost a son in World War I and oh, my god, it shows in this poem.  I can&#8217;t quote it&#8211;could barely stand to read it once.</p>
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		<title>By: chuck</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3658</link>
		<author>chuck</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3658</guid>
					<description>My grandmother had eleven children and lost two -- one to pneumonia at about three years of age and the other to diabetes as a teenager. I don't think such losses were terribly unusual back in the first quarter of the last century. I am sure that the parents grief was no less, but still, the death of children was a fact of life that many had to deal with, nor could they stay home and grieve when to be idle was to starve. Crops had to come in, jobs had to be kept.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Without a doubt, church and family were a big help. The weakness of these institutions today is perhaps a luxury attendent on antibiotics and vaccines. If these should fail we will need to relearn old, hard, lessons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My grandmother had eleven children and lost two &#8212; one to pneumonia at about three years of age and the other to diabetes as a teenager. I don&#8217;t think such losses were terribly unusual back in the first quarter of the last century. I am sure that the parents grief was no less, but still, the death of children was a fact of life that many had to deal with, nor could they stay home and grieve when to be idle was to starve. Crops had to come in, jobs had to be kept.</p>
<p>Without a doubt, church and family were a big help. The weakness of these institutions today is perhaps a luxury attendent on antibiotics and vaccines. If these should fail we will need to relearn old, hard, lessons.</p>
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		<title>By: Baron Bodissey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3659</link>
		<author>Baron Bodissey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2005/08/24/grieving-parents-revisited/#comment-3659</guid>
					<description>Thanks for the associated material, neo. They seem very apropos.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Dymphna is traveling right now -- but I'm sure you'll hear from her later.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Since you're doing poetry, here's the sonnet I wrote to recite at Shelagh's funeral:&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;REMEMBERING SHELAGH&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Of the many who knew the many of you&lt;BR/&gt;there were few enough who knew you well,&lt;BR/&gt;and of the stories that are ours to tell,&lt;BR/&gt;a myriad versions, and all of them true:&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;A gutsiness of life and love,&lt;BR/&gt;an eyebrow arched, a toss of the hair,&lt;BR/&gt;the level gaze and the withering stare,&lt;BR/&gt;a fist of iron in a velvet glove.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Mother and daughter, sister and friend:&lt;BR/&gt;how shall we cope with your laughter gone?&lt;BR/&gt;Too lately begun to have reached this end,&lt;BR/&gt;a spring afternoon on a shaded lawn.&lt;BR/&gt;Accept if you will this bitter rhyme,&lt;BR/&gt;and be with us here this one last time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the associated material, neo. They seem very apropos.</p>
<p>Dymphna is traveling right now &#8212; but I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll hear from her later.</p>
<p>Since you&#8217;re doing poetry, here&#8217;s the sonnet I wrote to recite at Shelagh&#8217;s funeral:</p>
<p>REMEMBERING SHELAGH</p>
<p>Of the many who knew the many of you<br />there were few enough who knew you well,<br />and of the stories that are ours to tell,<br />a myriad versions, and all of them true:</p>
<p>A gutsiness of life and love,<br />an eyebrow arched, a toss of the hair,<br />the level gaze and the withering stare,<br />a fist of iron in a velvet glove.</p>
<p>Mother and daughter, sister and friend:<br />how shall we cope with your laughter gone?<br />Too lately begun to have reached this end,<br />a spring afternoon on a shaded lawn.<br />Accept if you will this bitter rhyme,<br />and be with us here this one last time.</p>
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