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	<title>Comments on: Dinner party politics and how to avoid them</title>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-35207</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2007 01:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-35207</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been thinking about some of your posts about this subject lately, as I was invited to another dinner party this past weekend that I dreaded because I knew one of the guests would bring up Bush or Iraq, and again I&#039;d be faced with the choice of saying something.  Now the host of the party knew my views and knew that we didn&#039;t agree, but I wonder sometimes if he forgets that and assumes everyone will agree, since his primary sources of information are the New York Times and CBS News.  Well, he was the one who brought up the subject of uranium and Africa and the red herring that is that Italian document which supposedly disproves the connection, but which does nothing to debunk all the other evidence that is out there.  So I pointed that out, and I went on to make my case with enough energy and force--mixed with civility, of course--that it evolved into an interesting conversation mostly between me and one of the dinner guests--who obviously didn&#039;t agree with me, but who was intelligent enough and informed enough to discuss the issues reasonably and dispassionately.  I was quite satisfied.  It was the first real, substantive conversation I have had in that situation in a few years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about some of your posts about this subject lately, as I was invited to another dinner party this past weekend that I dreaded because I knew one of the guests would bring up Bush or Iraq, and again I&#8217;d be faced with the choice of saying something.  Now the host of the party knew my views and knew that we didn&#8217;t agree, but I wonder sometimes if he forgets that and assumes everyone will agree, since his primary sources of information are the New York Times and CBS News.  Well, he was the one who brought up the subject of uranium and Africa and the red herring that is that Italian document which supposedly disproves the connection, but which does nothing to debunk all the other evidence that is out there.  So I pointed that out, and I went on to make my case with enough energy and force&#8211;mixed with civility, of course&#8211;that it evolved into an interesting conversation mostly between me and one of the dinner guests&#8211;who obviously didn&#8217;t agree with me, but who was intelligent enough and informed enough to discuss the issues reasonably and dispassionately.  I was quite satisfied.  It was the first real, substantive conversation I have had in that situation in a few years.</p>
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		<title>By: Shane</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5684</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5684</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it wonderful that the Iraqi people feel safe enough to say it aloud? Of course they want us to go home. We want to come home too. They can shout it from the rooftops without fear of retribution. They can say it to a US soldier on the street without being shot. They can say it on TV and magazines and newspapers and they won&#039;t disappear in the middle of the night. They can say it to anyone they want.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It&#039;s called freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it wonderful that the Iraqi people feel safe enough to say it aloud? Of course they want us to go home. We want to come home too. They can shout it from the rooftops without fear of retribution. They can say it to a US soldier on the street without being shot. They can say it on TV and magazines and newspapers and they won&#8217;t disappear in the middle of the night. They can say it to anyone they want.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s called freedom.</p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5685</link>
		<dc:creator>Ymarsakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5685</guid>
		<description>I wish Bush would have lied, then fewer Americans and Iraqis would have had to die.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;This is not a war of honor and duty, but one in which we match our ruthlessness to theirs.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Cruel people always assume that other kinder, more merciful people, lack their ruthlessness.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It is justice incarnate to prove them utterly wrong, and to be proud in the proof.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;A war of mercy, simply gets more people killed, which is fine if the United States cares to lose their best and brightest over the decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish Bush would have lied, then fewer Americans and Iraqis would have had to die.</p>
<p>This is not a war of honor and duty, but one in which we match our ruthlessness to theirs.</p>
<p>Cruel people always assume that other kinder, more merciful people, lack their ruthlessness.</p>
<p>It is justice incarnate to prove them utterly wrong, and to be proud in the proof.</p>
<p>A war of mercy, simply gets more people killed, which is fine if the United States cares to lose their best and brightest over the decades.</p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5686</link>
		<dc:creator>Ymarsakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5686</guid>
		<description>&lt;B&gt;And now? Now when I go to a party and the inevitable comments come up, apropos of nothing--Bush is evil, we are a pack of murdering marauders in Iraq, Abu Ghraib was the equivalent of the political killings and imprisonments in Iran under the mullahs, etc. etc. etc.; I turn red in the face and have to leave and go cool off.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;/B&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Maybe you could use these statements next time, they are not political rebukes. Rather, they are rapier witticisms meant to slip beneath an opponent&#039;s guard and gut him without him ever knowing his ignominous defeat.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Bush is evil, why else would he make it harder for our Special Forces to fight terrorism by spreading tales of cowardice about how burning dead Taliban bodies to psychologically upset the terroists, is somehow &quot;not representative of America&quot;.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Only a pack knows another pack of people howling for vengeance, as America knows the fury of the Kurds and the Shia. Therefore we supply them with weapons of murder, mayhem, and terror, though we are polite enough to leave most of the killing to them, even though we are slavering at the mouth to kill some ourselves. Especially those Southern crackers that killed Vincent, a free lance journalist.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Ya, I wish we could have sent the National Guardsmen that embarassed America to a death camp. Not a fitting reward for people who have exposed the truth, but order must be kept.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;B&gt;They just turn into Jekyl-Hyde dimwits when politics rears its ugly head.&lt;/B&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;That is probably cause they are nearing maximum entropy. Any strictly ordered system becomes chaotic in the end through decay, and any fully chaotic system has an order to it. They have just reached so high up in &quot;international Law&quot; order, that they are approaching maximum entropy, the state of absolute and ignoramus like collapse.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Their balance is lost. Only through ironies, can they ever understand the joke of their circumstance.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;To lose one&#039;s balance in chaos and order, is to not know water from sewage.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Quite sad. On your part, quite frustrating perhaps as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>And now? Now when I go to a party and the inevitable comments come up, apropos of nothing&#8211;Bush is evil, we are a pack of murdering marauders in Iraq, Abu Ghraib was the equivalent of the political killings and imprisonments in Iran under the mullahs, etc. etc. etc.; I turn red in the face and have to leave and go cool off.<br /></b></p>
<p>Maybe you could use these statements next time, they are not political rebukes. Rather, they are rapier witticisms meant to slip beneath an opponent&#8217;s guard and gut him without him ever knowing his ignominous defeat.</p>
<p>Bush is evil, why else would he make it harder for our Special Forces to fight terrorism by spreading tales of cowardice about how burning dead Taliban bodies to psychologically upset the terroists, is somehow &#8220;not representative of America&#8221;.</p>
<p>Only a pack knows another pack of people howling for vengeance, as America knows the fury of the Kurds and the Shia. Therefore we supply them with weapons of murder, mayhem, and terror, though we are polite enough to leave most of the killing to them, even though we are slavering at the mouth to kill some ourselves. Especially those Southern crackers that killed Vincent, a free lance journalist.</p>
<p>Ya, I wish we could have sent the National Guardsmen that embarassed America to a death camp. Not a fitting reward for people who have exposed the truth, but order must be kept.</p>
<p><b>They just turn into Jekyl-Hyde dimwits when politics rears its ugly head.</b></p>
<p>That is probably cause they are nearing maximum entropy. Any strictly ordered system becomes chaotic in the end through decay, and any fully chaotic system has an order to it. They have just reached so high up in &#8220;international Law&#8221; order, that they are approaching maximum entropy, the state of absolute and ignoramus like collapse.</p>
<p>Their balance is lost. Only through ironies, can they ever understand the joke of their circumstance.</p>
<p>To lose one&#8217;s balance in chaos and order, is to not know water from sewage.</p>
<p>Quite sad. On your part, quite frustrating perhaps as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Judith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5687</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5687</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why not talk directly to Iraqis?&quot;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;We do (or at least read their blogs and the things they say to reporters), that&#039;s why we supported the removal of Saddam, and the reconstruction of Iraq. Since they have enough hope for their country to buy real estate and durable goods and volunteer in droves for their new military and police force, we have hope too.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;How many Iraqis spoke at any of the huge world-wide antiwar rallies of the past 3 years? The antiwar movement has repeatedly shown it only cares about Iraqis when it can position them as victims of the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why not talk directly to Iraqis?&#8221;</p>
<p>We do (or at least read their blogs and the things they say to reporters), that&#8217;s why we supported the removal of Saddam, and the reconstruction of Iraq. Since they have enough hope for their country to buy real estate and durable goods and volunteer in droves for their new military and police force, we have hope too.</p>
<p>How many Iraqis spoke at any of the huge world-wide antiwar rallies of the past 3 years? The antiwar movement has repeatedly shown it only cares about Iraqis when it can position them as victims of the US.</p>
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		<title>By: MP Martin</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5688</link>
		<dc:creator>MP Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5688</guid>
		<description>I too, have encountered the awkward dinner conversation style comments of the Useful Idiots who think that the whole world shares their liberal beliefs.  It seems that Politics of Fear is all the rage lately.  I have this recent email from my uncle (who happens to be gay), telling a story of the little boy who is too embarassed that his daddy works for the Republican National Committee and helped re-elect George Bush, and instead lies that his dad is a gay cabaret strip dancer and gay prostitute.  There was another email linking to a web site with an &lt;A HREF=&quot;http://toccionline.kizash.com/movies/i_cant_afford_my_gasoline/&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;animated song&lt;/A&gt; showing Bush, Cheney, and Rice getting rich from the rising price of gasoline.  Not to mention a series of 9/11 conspiracy-theory and election conspiracy-theory web sites.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I would like to respond that I voted Republican, and that I&#039;ve been growing even more conservative lately, and find these messages somewhat offensive.  I could consult The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense (1980, Suzette Haden Elgin), and look up an appropriate response to the empowering &quot;Everyone knows&quot; claim.  I&#039;m more inclined to send back a snappy comeback, and go about my business:&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;I&gt;&quot;You better watch it with your Bush-Bashing, you terrorist sympathasizing &lt;A HREF=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dhimmi&lt;/A&gt;-crat, or I&#039;ll have my good friend and co-conspirator, President George W. Bush sic his Roveian Hurricane Machine on you!  And George Bush Hates Black People!&quot;&lt;/I&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;My gay uncle Jerry is White, but if I wanted to be mean, I would substitute Kayne West&#039;s use of &quot;black people&quot; with &quot;gay people&quot; (not that there&#039;s anything wrong with that.)  I&#039;m not certain that would help salvage the relationship with this relative, while stemming the influx of unwanted liberal commentary.  So, with reluctance, I opened the Verbal Self-Defense book to chapter 8, &quot;Everyone Understands Why You...&quot;  This is more of a personal attack than the &lt;A HREF=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_fallacy&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bandwagon fallacy&lt;/A&gt; of &quot;everyone agrees with me.&quot;  The best advice I can come up with is something like... respond in Computer Mode and nominalize the presupposition, which produces a response like this:&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;I&gt;&quot;Yes, the shame and embarassment of the 51% of us who voted for Bush (or who support the war on terror) certainly is astounding, isn&#039;t it?&quot;&lt;/I&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;A snarky response like that might get through to the smarter ones.  Anymore, I don&#039;t care to spend the energy to construct such a response, and remember to use it the &lt;I&gt;next time&lt;/I&gt; that particular attack comes up.  But a decisive response is necessary, otherwise they assume that silence is acquiescence.  So, I think I&#039;d be better off sending back the first response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too, have encountered the awkward dinner conversation style comments of the Useful Idiots who think that the whole world shares their liberal beliefs.  It seems that Politics of Fear is all the rage lately.  I have this recent email from my uncle (who happens to be gay), telling a story of the little boy who is too embarassed that his daddy works for the Republican National Committee and helped re-elect George Bush, and instead lies that his dad is a gay cabaret strip dancer and gay prostitute.  There was another email linking to a web site with an <a HREF="http://toccionline.kizash.com/movies/i_cant_afford_my_gasoline/" REL="nofollow">animated song</a> showing Bush, Cheney, and Rice getting rich from the rising price of gasoline.  Not to mention a series of 9/11 conspiracy-theory and election conspiracy-theory web sites.</p>
<p>I would like to respond that I voted Republican, and that I&#8217;ve been growing even more conservative lately, and find these messages somewhat offensive.  I could consult The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense (1980, Suzette Haden Elgin), and look up an appropriate response to the empowering &#8220;Everyone knows&#8221; claim.  I&#8217;m more inclined to send back a snappy comeback, and go about my business:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;You better watch it with your Bush-Bashing, you terrorist sympathasizing <a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi" REL="nofollow">Dhimmi</a>-crat, or I&#8217;ll have my good friend and co-conspirator, President George W. Bush sic his Roveian Hurricane Machine on you!  And George Bush Hates Black People!&#8221;</i></p>
<p>My gay uncle Jerry is White, but if I wanted to be mean, I would substitute Kayne West&#8217;s use of &#8220;black people&#8221; with &#8220;gay people&#8221; (not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with that.)  I&#8217;m not certain that would help salvage the relationship with this relative, while stemming the influx of unwanted liberal commentary.  So, with reluctance, I opened the Verbal Self-Defense book to chapter 8, &#8220;Everyone Understands Why You&#8230;&#8221;  This is more of a personal attack than the <a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_fallacy" REL="nofollow">bandwagon fallacy</a> of &#8220;everyone agrees with me.&#8221;  The best advice I can come up with is something like&#8230; respond in Computer Mode and nominalize the presupposition, which produces a response like this:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Yes, the shame and embarassment of the 51% of us who voted for Bush (or who support the war on terror) certainly is astounding, isn&#8217;t it?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>A snarky response like that might get through to the smarter ones.  Anymore, I don&#8217;t care to spend the energy to construct such a response, and remember to use it the <i>next time</i> that particular attack comes up.  But a decisive response is necessary, otherwise they assume that silence is acquiescence.  So, I think I&#8217;d be better off sending back the first response.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5689</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5689</guid>
		<description>Brad, you could always, you know, try listening to the lecture.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;peace&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;B&gt;82% Of Iraqis Oppose Foreign Troops&lt;/B&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;A new poll commissioned by the British military has found that 82 percent of Iraqis strongly oppose the continued presence of foreign troops. Less than 1 percent of the population feels foreign troops have helped improve security in Iraq. The poll also found 45 percent of Iraqis feel attacks against US troops are justified.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;A HREF=&quot;http://washingtontimes.com/world/20051023-112228-5108r.htm&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Poll finds support for attacks on coalition forces&lt;/A&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, you could always, you know, try listening to the lecture.</p>
<p>peace</p>
<p><b>82% Of Iraqis Oppose Foreign Troops</b><br />A new poll commissioned by the British military has found that 82 percent of Iraqis strongly oppose the continued presence of foreign troops. Less than 1 percent of the population feels foreign troops have helped improve security in Iraq. The poll also found 45 percent of Iraqis feel attacks against US troops are justified.</p>
<p><a HREF="http://washingtontimes.com/world/20051023-112228-5108r.htm" REL="nofollow">Poll finds support for attacks on coalition forces</a></p>
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		<title>By: troutsky</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5690</link>
		<dc:creator>troutsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5690</guid>
		<description>Consider another scenario; perhaps all your analysis is wrong and your arguments have no merit.That too would make it difficult to argue with your friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consider another scenario; perhaps all your analysis is wrong and your arguments have no merit.That too would make it difficult to argue with your friends.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5691</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5691</guid>
		<description>correction &quot;they are now going to declare we will all die now from....&quot;  (sorry, I was laughing so hard I failed to preview)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>correction &#8220;they are now going to declare we will all die now from&#8230;.&#8221;  (sorry, I was laughing so hard I failed to preview)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/22/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid/#comment-5692</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2005/10/dinner-party-politics-and-how-to-avoid.html#comment-5692</guid>
		<description>Today I loudly laugh at the anti-liberators, not because they are against war but because they are filfilling the requirements asks of Stalin&#039;s useful idiots.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Liberalism eventually leads  useful idiots down The Road to Serfdom, this is why they are slaves to their cause.  To recognize otherwise would admit they were used as idiots. A purple finger scares them.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Today, for example, I am laughing loudly at the anti-liberators because the people of Brazil rejected the gun-ban proposed by their own useful idiots of artists, governmental oppressors and peace for genocide people.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Around the world the common person is not as stupid as the useful idiots would lead us to believe. Power to the people, down with Serfdom!&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;That said, the useful idiots are bringing out the death under an Ice Age arguement, only unlike in the 1970&#039;s, they they say are now going to declared we will all die now from a climate change of an Ice Age caused by Global Warming.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Useful idiotism make for great comedy.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I laugh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today I loudly laugh at the anti-liberators, not because they are against war but because they are filfilling the requirements asks of Stalin&#8217;s useful idiots.</p>
<p>Liberalism eventually leads  useful idiots down The Road to Serfdom, this is why they are slaves to their cause.  To recognize otherwise would admit they were used as idiots. A purple finger scares them.</p>
<p>Today, for example, I am laughing loudly at the anti-liberators because the people of Brazil rejected the gun-ban proposed by their own useful idiots of artists, governmental oppressors and peace for genocide people.</p>
<p>Around the world the common person is not as stupid as the useful idiots would lead us to believe. Power to the people, down with Serfdom!</p>
<p>That said, the useful idiots are bringing out the death under an Ice Age arguement, only unlike in the 1970&#8242;s, they they say are now going to declared we will all die now from a climate change of an Ice Age caused by Global Warming.</p>
<p>Useful idiotism make for great comedy.</p>
<p>I laugh.</p>
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