Comments on: The sea of faith: the ebb and flow of religion http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/ Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:02:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1 By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12947 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12947 No, sorry, not that link, this one:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=809" REL="nofollow">yeah, this one</A> No, sorry, not that link, this one:

yeah, this one

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12948 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12948 you might also want to read this:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="" REL="nofollow" HREF:HTTP://PEWGLOBAL.ORG/REPORTS/DISPLAY.PHP?PAGEID="809">This</A><BR/><BR/>Your 1% figure is a bit off. There are also many, many shades of grey, but there's quite a bit of the darker shades... you might also want to read this:

This

Your 1% figure is a bit off. There are also many, many shades of grey, but there’s quite a bit of the darker shades…

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12949 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12949 I guess when we see celebrations in the streets of things like McVeigh, and the KKK, then I'll get out and protest. In fact, I think we HAVE seen protests and attempts to stop celebrations of the KKK (Skokie for instance). Show me the equivalent in Muslim culture? Perhaps it's not because there aren't any 'moderate' muslims (my friends find distasteful and I don't believe would engage in terror, but they won't condemn it in any real way), but perhaps there aren't enough to do a counter protest without getting killed. Have you thought about that? 90-10%? Did you see the PRO-terror protests in the UK? Where were the 'moderates'? Invisible 'moderates' who allow the 'radicals' to be the voice of their group are in some way complicit, are they not? I'm not saying it's not a terrible personal dilemma to be in, but It's still true. If it really is 90-10 as you assert, surely you can show me links to hundreds of islamic websites denouncing terror and standing up against the radicals...<BR/><BR/>and of course, you know damn well McVeigh Wasn't 'Christian'...<BR/><BR/>I'd also ask you to come up with a longer list besides your few anomalies... It's a little different when talking about Islam, no? I guess when we see celebrations in the streets of things like McVeigh, and the KKK, then I’ll get out and protest. In fact, I think we HAVE seen protests and attempts to stop celebrations of the KKK (Skokie for instance). Show me the equivalent in Muslim culture? Perhaps it’s not because there aren’t any ‘moderate’ muslims (my friends find distasteful and I don’t believe would engage in terror, but they won’t condemn it in any real way), but perhaps there aren’t enough to do a counter protest without getting killed. Have you thought about that? 90-10%? Did you see the PRO-terror protests in the UK? Where were the ‘moderates’? Invisible ‘moderates’ who allow the ‘radicals’ to be the voice of their group are in some way complicit, are they not? I’m not saying it’s not a terrible personal dilemma to be in, but It’s still true. If it really is 90-10 as you assert, surely you can show me links to hundreds of islamic websites denouncing terror and standing up against the radicals…

and of course, you know damn well McVeigh Wasn’t ‘Christian’…

I’d also ask you to come up with a longer list besides your few anomalies… It’s a little different when talking about Islam, no?

]]> By: Spanky the Questioning http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12950 Spanky the Questioning Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12950 Cute, Douglas.<BR/><BR/>No, actually, I mean: at what point do you and your Christian, American neighbors get out in the streets and demonstrate against, say, Timothy McVeigh's compatriots, who are still active, or the Militia movement, or the KKK, or the IRA, or Jewish terrorist groups in Israel?<BR/><BR/>I don't like the KKK, but as an American I don't feel responsibility for organizing a mass protest movement to condemn it.<BR/><BR/>Has it ever occurred to you that 99% of a group doesn't bear responsibility for the actions of 1% of the group? That if the only thing they have in common is that both sets of people call themselves "Muslim", that they might not even consider themselves responsible in the same way that you probably don't consider yourself responsible for "Christians" like McVeigh? Or that to protest them, solely on the virtue that they are Muslims, is to assume that the problem is with Islam and not with the people commiting violence? Cute, Douglas.

No, actually, I mean: at what point do you and your Christian, American neighbors get out in the streets and demonstrate against, say, Timothy McVeigh’s compatriots, who are still active, or the Militia movement, or the KKK, or the IRA, or Jewish terrorist groups in Israel?

I don’t like the KKK, but as an American I don’t feel responsibility for organizing a mass protest movement to condemn it.

Has it ever occurred to you that 99% of a group doesn’t bear responsibility for the actions of 1% of the group? That if the only thing they have in common is that both sets of people call themselves “Muslim”, that they might not even consider themselves responsible in the same way that you probably don’t consider yourself responsible for “Christians” like McVeigh? Or that to protest them, solely on the virtue that they are Muslims, is to assume that the problem is with Islam and not with the people commiting violence?

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12951 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12951 <I>"and if you read my post i do not paint the battle of britain and dresden as moral equivalents. The former was a battle between two airforces. The latter was the ruel bombing of an open city that killed many civilians, refugees and pows. Which is wht the B of B is not on the list....but Shatila and My Lai are.</I>"<BR/><BR/>How about, 'the battle of britain was the cruel bombing of an open city that killed many civilians, and opened the door on aerial bombardment of civilian centers which cost the lives of literally millions of Europeans and Japanese.'<BR/><BR/>not exactly a simple crime like My Lai, and who can say exactly what Jenin, er, I mean Shatila was about...<BR/><BR/>BTW, I do respect you for your candor, David. I just don't always like your arguments. And I feel a bit badly about the 'personal attack', but it was a sensitive point with me. Sorry. “and if you read my post i do not paint the battle of britain and dresden as moral equivalents. The former was a battle between two airforces. The latter was the ruel bombing of an open city that killed many civilians, refugees and pows. Which is wht the B of B is not on the list….but Shatila and My Lai are.“

How about, ‘the battle of britain was the cruel bombing of an open city that killed many civilians, and opened the door on aerial bombardment of civilian centers which cost the lives of literally millions of Europeans and Japanese.’

not exactly a simple crime like My Lai, and who can say exactly what Jenin, er, I mean Shatila was about…

BTW, I do respect you for your candor, David. I just don’t always like your arguments. And I feel a bit badly about the ‘personal attack’, but it was a sensitive point with me. Sorry.

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12952 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12952 <I>"Interesting point: Muslims don't condemn terrorism of other Muslims.<BR/><BR/>Have you ever staged a demonstration against terrorism committed by members of your religion/religious community/religiously defined "civilization"?</I><BR/><BR/>If by "terrorism committed by members of your religion/religious community/religiously defined "civilization" you mean the United States, or Christianity, if there were something current like what's occuring from radical islam, then of course I would. But I am not at issue- There certainly are people in the United States demonstrating against the 'evils' of Bush, Halliburton, Big Oil, etc...<BR/>Where's the reciprocal from Islam? <BR/><BR/><I>"At what point do you feel responsibility to speak out against evil commited by people tangentially associated with you?"</I><BR/><BR/>I denounce you. “Interesting point: Muslims don’t condemn terrorism of other Muslims.

Have you ever staged a demonstration against terrorism committed by members of your religion/religious community/religiously defined “civilization”?

If by “terrorism committed by members of your religion/religious community/religiously defined “civilization” you mean the United States, or Christianity, if there were something current like what’s occuring from radical islam, then of course I would. But I am not at issue- There certainly are people in the United States demonstrating against the ‘evils’ of Bush, Halliburton, Big Oil, etc…
Where’s the reciprocal from Islam?

“At what point do you feel responsibility to speak out against evil commited by people tangentially associated with you?”

I denounce you.

]]> By: Spanky the Good http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12953 Spanky the Good Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12953 Interesting point: Muslims don't condemn terrorism of other Muslims.<BR/><BR/>Have you ever staged a demonstration against terrorism committed by members of your religion/religious community/religiously defined "civilization"?<BR/><BR/>At what point do you feel responsibility to speak out against evil commited by people tangentially associated with you? Interesting point: Muslims don’t condemn terrorism of other Muslims.

Have you ever staged a demonstration against terrorism committed by members of your religion/religious community/religiously defined “civilization”?

At what point do you feel responsibility to speak out against evil commited by people tangentially associated with you?

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12954 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12954 i was discussing the b of b from an anglocentric view not the whole list, which, as you noticed does th efull range. i was discussing the b of b from an anglocentric view not the whole list, which, as you noticed does th efull range.

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12955 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12955 <I>"To be honest when i was discussing the Battle of Britain it was from an anglo-centric view. We were in the right and fought nobly against an evil enemy. The bombing of Dresden was not such an event and may well come under the heading of war crime."</I><BR/><BR/>Not quite. Your list included atrocities from both sides. You can't now claim it was a one sided (anglo centric) list. What I was saying is perhaps you should've included B of B as a German atrocity, one which opened the door to, and perhaps legitimized things like Dresden (and Hamburg, and Berlin, and Tokyo, and Hiroshima...)<BR/><BR/><I>"As for the discussion around the nature of muslims i have to say i find it depressing. Are you seriously suggesting that at heart all muslims, secretly, are anti-western and pro-terrorism... ...It is racism and it is simplistic."</I><BR/><BR/>No, I'm saying they won't condemn it. They make excuses for it, they TOLERATE it. bad enough, isn't it. Perhaps even worse than supporting it, because it camoflages it from people like you... “To be honest when i was discussing the Battle of Britain it was from an anglo-centric view. We were in the right and fought nobly against an evil enemy. The bombing of Dresden was not such an event and may well come under the heading of war crime.”

Not quite. Your list included atrocities from both sides. You can’t now claim it was a one sided (anglo centric) list. What I was saying is perhaps you should’ve included B of B as a German atrocity, one which opened the door to, and perhaps legitimized things like Dresden (and Hamburg, and Berlin, and Tokyo, and Hiroshima…)

“As for the discussion around the nature of muslims i have to say i find it depressing. Are you seriously suggesting that at heart all muslims, secretly, are anti-western and pro-terrorism… …It is racism and it is simplistic.”

No, I’m saying they won’t condemn it. They make excuses for it, they TOLERATE it. bad enough, isn’t it. Perhaps even worse than supporting it, because it camoflages it from people like you…

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12956 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12956 <B>1. If i do not understand suicide bombers i do not understand muslims.</B><BR/><BR/>If you said to understand Muslims, then you say you don't understand Muslim suicide bombers, then yes, you are advocating do as I say not as I do.<BR/><BR/>Suicide bombers are Muslims. Muslims are muslims. Stop inverting the logic, david.<BR/><BR/>I don't know how they react, American Muslims don't like it. When the world Muslims rise up against suicide bombing, then I can tell you how they will react. 1. If i do not understand suicide bombers i do not understand muslims.

If you said to understand Muslims, then you say you don’t understand Muslim suicide bombers, then yes, you are advocating do as I say not as I do.

Suicide bombers are Muslims. Muslims are muslims. Stop inverting the logic, david.

I don’t know how they react, American Muslims don’t like it. When the world Muslims rise up against suicide bombing, then I can tell you how they will react.

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12957 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12957 let me get this right then ymar....<BR/><BR/><B>if you don't understand human psychology leading to Palestinian glorification of suicide operations, then you're not going to understand most Muslims,</B><BR/><BR/><BR/>you are saying<BR/><BR/>1. If i do not understand suicide bombers i do not understand muslims.<BR/><BR/>this is because <BR/><BR/>2. Muslims are different to me and all are potentially suicide bombers..<BR/><BR/>Have you any idea how scary this sounds?<BR/><BR/><BR/>x is a muslim,<BR/><BR/>therefore x is a suicide bomber<BR/><BR/>suicide bombers need to be dealt with as severely as possible. Ideally shot on sight<BR/><BR/>therefore it does not matter how badly you treat x<BR/><BR/><BR/>...and if it sounds scary to me, what if you are a muslim? How do you expect law abiding and peaceful muslims to react to this stuff? let me get this right then ymar….

if you don’t understand human psychology leading to Palestinian glorification of suicide operations, then you’re not going to understand most Muslims,

you are saying

1. If i do not understand suicide bombers i do not understand muslims.

this is because

2. Muslims are different to me and all are potentially suicide bombers..

Have you any idea how scary this sounds?

x is a muslim,

therefore x is a suicide bomber

suicide bombers need to be dealt with as severely as possible. Ideally shot on sight

therefore it does not matter how badly you treat x

…and if it sounds scary to me, what if you are a muslim? How do you expect law abiding and peaceful muslims to react to this stuff?

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12958 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12958 Well, david has already admitted he doesn't understand suicide bombers. So, I suppose he suggests we should do as he says, not as he does.<BR/><BR/>In the end, if you don't understand human psychology leading to Palestinian glorification of suicide operations, then you're not going to understand most Muslims, david. Because their life is not like yours, and neither are their reasoning for their actions. Well, david has already admitted he doesn’t understand suicide bombers. So, I suppose he suggests we should do as he says, not as he does.

In the end, if you don’t understand human psychology leading to Palestinian glorification of suicide operations, then you’re not going to understand most Muslims, david. Because their life is not like yours, and neither are their reasoning for their actions.

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12959 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12959 what a classy argument. anon. v impressed what a classy argument. anon. v impressed

]]> By: Anonymous http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12960 Anonymous Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12960 "Because to be honest it sounds like the same crap that has been said about Jews over the years. "<BR/><BR/>So would accusing the Peoples' Temple of Jim Jones of being pro-suicide.<BR/><BR/>So would accusing the Aztecs of being pro-human sacrifice.<BR/><BR/>So would accusing the Scientologists of being con artists, or accusing the Objectivists of being anti-religion.<BR/><BR/>Seems to me your real problem, david, is that accusations backed by fact are required, by your beliefs, to carry the same weight as accsautions backed only by prejudice.<BR/><BR/>It's not our fault you're stupid. “Because to be honest it sounds like the same crap that has been said about Jews over the years. “

So would accusing the Peoples’ Temple of Jim Jones of being pro-suicide.

So would accusing the Aztecs of being pro-human sacrifice.

So would accusing the Scientologists of being con artists, or accusing the Objectivists of being anti-religion.

Seems to me your real problem, david, is that accusations backed by fact are required, by your beliefs, to carry the same weight as accsautions backed only by prejudice.

It’s not our fault you’re stupid.

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12961 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12961 To be honest when i was discussing the Battle of Britain it was from an anglo-centric view. We were in the right and fought nobly against an evil enemy. The bombing of Dresden was not such an event and may well come under the heading of war crime.<BR/><BR/>As for the discussion around the nature of muslims i have to say i find it depressing. Are you seriously suggesting that at heart all muslims, secretly, are anti-western and pro-terrorism. Because to be honest it sounds like the same crap that has been said about Jews over the years. And for that matter Blacks, Irish, Chinese etc. etc. It is racism and it is simplistic. To be honest when i was discussing the Battle of Britain it was from an anglo-centric view. We were in the right and fought nobly against an evil enemy. The bombing of Dresden was not such an event and may well come under the heading of war crime.

As for the discussion around the nature of muslims i have to say i find it depressing. Are you seriously suggesting that at heart all muslims, secretly, are anti-western and pro-terrorism. Because to be honest it sounds like the same crap that has been said about Jews over the years. And for that matter Blacks, Irish, Chinese etc. etc. It is racism and it is simplistic.

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12962 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12962 This previous post by Neo, and commentary might interest you as well.<BR/><BR/>http://neo-neocon.blogspot.com/2006/03/<BR/>when-light-pierced-darkness-moslem.html This previous post by Neo, and commentary might interest you as well.

http://neo-neocon.blogspot.com/2006/03/
when-light-pierced-darkness-moslem.html

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12963 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12963 David, perhaps the Battle of Britain should've been on your list. From Wikipedia: <I>"Secondary objectives were to destroy aircraft production and ground infrastructure, as well as <B>terrorizing the British people with the intent of intimidating them into seeking an armistice or surrender</B>."</I><BR/>approx. 27,500 civilian casualties. Slightly more than Dresden.<BR/>Of course, that also means that I was wrong, you didn't paint B of B and Dresden as morally equivalent, you put Dresden in the war crime category, while the Battle of Britian was acceptable warfare. Sorry about that. <BR/><BR/>As for Sabra/Shatila- ever heard of Jenin?<BR/><BR/><I>"i really wonder about this point. who seems unhappiest about how other people construct their lives?</I><BR/><BR/>Huh?<BR/><BR/><I>"if you read this carefully you will see that your argument does not make sense, i think you may have misread me."</I><BR/><BR/>No, but my comment that you responded to was not well crafted.<BR/>What you were arguing is that they're all different just like we're all different... thus we're pretty much the same, right?<BR/>Look, let's be honest, we all generalize every day, and rightly so, you couldn't get through life without it. Some, perhaps even most generalizations are accurate and helpful. Of course, one must always realize that there are exceptions and treat individual cases as individual. What I'm getting at it that while Muslims are 'all different', there are things that run through the culture/society in most or a significant number of cases. Ultimately, the problem is that if you aren't a muslim, they owe you nothing, not even honesty (that is reserved for fellow muslims). That makes it difficult to get to the truth about things, but it's possible. If you push far enough, you'll almost always (not hyperbole) find that Muslims (practicing) won't condemn terrorism and won't condemn radical Islam, at least not in a meaningful way to them. you have to listen carefully to what they say, because they'll often make it <I>sound like</I> they're condemning those things, but they insert loopholes, or equivocate, or use any number of other tactics to veer away from a condemnation.<BR/><BR/>What do I base this on, you ask?- do I really know any Muslims, or am I just spouting the rhetoric of the right here?<BR/><BR/>We have Muslim friends who are close enough to us to have left their children with us when they left town, even though they haad other relatives in town. And I know you know what family means to them from your earlier comment, so you see where I'm coming from. I have to say it pains me that people that I know have basically good hearts, and who I like and consider friends, have beliefs that, frankly, make me shudder when I really think about it. David, perhaps the Battle of Britain should’ve been on your list. From Wikipedia: “Secondary objectives were to destroy aircraft production and ground infrastructure, as well as terrorizing the British people with the intent of intimidating them into seeking an armistice or surrender.”
approx. 27,500 civilian casualties. Slightly more than Dresden.
Of course, that also means that I was wrong, you didn’t paint B of B and Dresden as morally equivalent, you put Dresden in the war crime category, while the Battle of Britian was acceptable warfare. Sorry about that.

As for Sabra/Shatila- ever heard of Jenin?

“i really wonder about this point. who seems unhappiest about how other people construct their lives?

Huh?

“if you read this carefully you will see that your argument does not make sense, i think you may have misread me.”

No, but my comment that you responded to was not well crafted.
What you were arguing is that they’re all different just like we’re all different… thus we’re pretty much the same, right?
Look, let’s be honest, we all generalize every day, and rightly so, you couldn’t get through life without it. Some, perhaps even most generalizations are accurate and helpful. Of course, one must always realize that there are exceptions and treat individual cases as individual. What I’m getting at it that while Muslims are ‘all different’, there are things that run through the culture/society in most or a significant number of cases. Ultimately, the problem is that if you aren’t a muslim, they owe you nothing, not even honesty (that is reserved for fellow muslims). That makes it difficult to get to the truth about things, but it’s possible. If you push far enough, you’ll almost always (not hyperbole) find that Muslims (practicing) won’t condemn terrorism and won’t condemn radical Islam, at least not in a meaningful way to them. you have to listen carefully to what they say, because they’ll often make it sound like they’re condemning those things, but they insert loopholes, or equivocate, or use any number of other tactics to veer away from a condemnation.

What do I base this on, you ask?- do I really know any Muslims, or am I just spouting the rhetoric of the right here?

We have Muslim friends who are close enough to us to have left their children with us when they left town, even though they haad other relatives in town. And I know you know what family means to them from your earlier comment, so you see where I’m coming from. I have to say it pains me that people that I know have basically good hearts, and who I like and consider friends, have beliefs that, frankly, make me shudder when I really think about it.

]]> By: grackle http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12964 grackle Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12964 <I>Local Islamists received very low support, and the participants indicated their desire for greater democracy and lower corruption in their governments as their highest priorities. bin Laden was the only Islamist to receive high ratings among the participants. They said they liked him not because of his ideology, but rather because he "stood up to America" - that is, he had assumed the David role against Goliath, and people liked him for it.</I><BR/><BR/>The anti-warriors strive mightily to imbue bin Laden with hero status & apologize for the Moslem world’s lionization of the butcher. In this case it takes the form of trying to separate the butcher from his carcasses: Bin Laden didn’t murder Americans, oh no, what he did was stand “up to America.” He is a “David” going “against Goliath,” the writer thereby giving bin Laden biblical-level hero status & relegating America to the realm of evil giants. Why, bin Laden is a “Robin Hood,” & bin Laden’s band of merry men merely tweaking the nose of the evil Sheriff of Nottingham. <BR/><BR/>These metaphors are subconscious but not accidental. Subconsciously, large numbers of domestic anti-warriors hate America, so naturally their prose sometimes descends into a starry-eyed hero-worship to any personage they perceive as America’s opponent. Here the writer steals a method from the MSM: merely reporting on events, don’t you know, in this case a handy “scientific” study by an anti-warrior member of academia. Local Islamists received very low support, and the participants indicated their desire for greater democracy and lower corruption in their governments as their highest priorities. bin Laden was the only Islamist to receive high ratings among the participants. They said they liked him not because of his ideology, but rather because he “stood up to America” - that is, he had assumed the David role against Goliath, and people liked him for it.

The anti-warriors strive mightily to imbue bin Laden with hero status & apologize for the Moslem world’s lionization of the butcher. In this case it takes the form of trying to separate the butcher from his carcasses: Bin Laden didn’t murder Americans, oh no, what he did was stand “up to America.” He is a “David” going “against Goliath,” the writer thereby giving bin Laden biblical-level hero status & relegating America to the realm of evil giants. Why, bin Laden is a “Robin Hood,” & bin Laden’s band of merry men merely tweaking the nose of the evil Sheriff of Nottingham.

These metaphors are subconscious but not accidental. Subconsciously, large numbers of domestic anti-warriors hate America, so naturally their prose sometimes descends into a starry-eyed hero-worship to any personage they perceive as America’s opponent. Here the writer steals a method from the MSM: merely reporting on events, don’t you know, in this case a handy “scientific” study by an anti-warrior member of academia.

]]> By: snowonpine http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12965 snowonpine Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12965 It seems to me that one of, if not the key distinguishing feature of Islamic terrorism/violence is the result it is seeking. The Islamic terrorists, and many the Muslim clerics who talk about jihad, envision the result as the re-establishment of the Caliphate and this time on a world wide basis. <BR/><BR/>Many Islamic thinkers divide the world into two parts. The Dar Al Islam, the "House of Islam," where Islam and Shari'a rules all and the Dar Al Harb, the "House of War," consisting of all that part of the world that has not yet been brought under the rule of Islam. The House of War is basically a free fire zone and any tactic, any method can be used by Muslims to bring the lands and peoples of the House of War into the House of Islam.<BR/><BR/>Can anyone point to any such statements or concepts promulgated by current day Buddhist, Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian leaders? I don't think so. It seems to me that one of, if not the key distinguishing feature of Islamic terrorism/violence is the result it is seeking. The Islamic terrorists, and many the Muslim clerics who talk about jihad, envision the result as the re-establishment of the Caliphate and this time on a world wide basis.

Many Islamic thinkers divide the world into two parts. The Dar Al Islam, the “House of Islam,” where Islam and Shari’a rules all and the Dar Al Harb, the “House of War,” consisting of all that part of the world that has not yet been brought under the rule of Islam. The House of War is basically a free fire zone and any tactic, any method can be used by Muslims to bring the lands and peoples of the House of War into the House of Islam.

Can anyone point to any such statements or concepts promulgated by current day Buddhist, Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian leaders? I don’t think so.

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12966 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12966 ....a sensible comment Ymarsakar... i haven't. I suppose the truth is that i don't understand suicide bombers and tend to see them as a symptom of a damaged society. I will try and come up with something more controversial to say :-) ….a sensible comment Ymarsakar… i haven’t. I suppose the truth is that i don’t understand suicide bombers and tend to see them as a symptom of a damaged society. I will try and come up with something more controversial to say :-)

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12967 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12967 David doesn't have much to say concerning Palestinian suicide bombing and the discussion going on between Justin, me, and Anon.<BR/><BR/>If david is so fired up for understanding the enemy, you'd think he'd be curious enough to think and read more upon the subject. But all you get is a silence.<BR/><BR/>Real understanding doesn't come from wishful thinking. Real understanding comes from well, real understanding.<BR/><BR/>David said that people should understand the Palestinians. Yet I've demonstrated a real understanding and an effort at such a goal, than David has not in several days of comments David doesn’t have much to say concerning Palestinian suicide bombing and the discussion going on between Justin, me, and Anon.

If david is so fired up for understanding the enemy, you’d think he’d be curious enough to think and read more upon the subject. But all you get is a silence.

Real understanding doesn’t come from wishful thinking. Real understanding comes from well, real understanding.

David said that people should understand the Palestinians. Yet I’ve demonstrated a real understanding and an effort at such a goal, than David has not in several days of comments

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12968 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12968 So Douglas it is arrogance not ignorance that gets you down. if you read the posts above youwills ee i did retract the simlicity of my original statement - it is often difficult to rapidly communicate complex ideas. I live in a town that is more than a quarter muslim and spend a great deal of time with muslim people. That was the basis of my statement. I assumed that most people on this post don't have that level of contact and i thought it was relevant. You can say it is not...which one post argued, and that is fair enough. But all this ignorance and arrogance stuff is not debate...its just futile.<BR/><BR/>As for the statement about "all muslims" i meant you argue your point and i will argue mine, sorry if i was double guessing your opinion. Which is what exactly?<BR/><BR/>and if you read my post i do not paint the battle of britain and dresden as moral equivalents. The former was a battle between two airforces. The latter was the ruel bombing of an open city that killed many civilians, refugees and pows. Which is wht the B of B is not on the list....but Shatila and My Lai are.<BR/><BR/><BR/>---------------<BR/>"We are all different. The trick is to learn how to live with each other."<BR/><BR/>Who seems to have a bigger problem with this idea, The United States, Europe, or the Arab World?<BR/>---------------<BR/><BR/>i really wonder about this point. who seems unhappiest about how other people construct their lives?<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>--------------------------------<BR/><BR/>"Try to avoid thinking all muslims are the same becaause they really are not, just as all Americans are not."<BR/><BR/>Right, they're really all the same, eh? And you're just like an SS trooper, right? Or for that matter, just like Ymar? Yeah, righteeoooo...<BR/><BR/>---------------------------<BR/><BR/>if you read this carefully you will see that your argument does not make sense, i think you may have misread me.<BR/><BR/>happy saturday So Douglas it is arrogance not ignorance that gets you down. if you read the posts above youwills ee i did retract the simlicity of my original statement - it is often difficult to rapidly communicate complex ideas. I live in a town that is more than a quarter muslim and spend a great deal of time with muslim people. That was the basis of my statement. I assumed that most people on this post don’t have that level of contact and i thought it was relevant. You can say it is not…which one post argued, and that is fair enough. But all this ignorance and arrogance stuff is not debate…its just futile.

As for the statement about “all muslims” i meant you argue your point and i will argue mine, sorry if i was double guessing your opinion. Which is what exactly?

and if you read my post i do not paint the battle of britain and dresden as moral equivalents. The former was a battle between two airforces. The latter was the ruel bombing of an open city that killed many civilians, refugees and pows. Which is wht the B of B is not on the list….but Shatila and My Lai are.

—————
“We are all different. The trick is to learn how to live with each other.”

Who seems to have a bigger problem with this idea, The United States, Europe, or the Arab World?
—————

i really wonder about this point. who seems unhappiest about how other people construct their lives?

——————————–

“Try to avoid thinking all muslims are the same becaause they really are not, just as all Americans are not.”

Right, they’re really all the same, eh? And you’re just like an SS trooper, right? Or for that matter, just like Ymar? Yeah, righteeoooo…

—————————

if you read this carefully you will see that your argument does not make sense, i think you may have misread me.

happy saturday

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12969 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12969 <I>"oh dear Douglas have i upset you? Just giving an opinion. Sorry if i don't agree with you."</I><BR/><BR/>disagreement is fine. I get annoyed with those who have the arrogance to tell me they know muslims better because they chat with their neighbors, and know nothing of what I may know or not.<BR/><BR/><I>"To be honest i don't see how you can mount a personal attack on me....we don't know each other personally. You can say everything I write is crap, or to use your word, written by an idiot....but it isn't much of an argument."</I><BR/><BR/>I wasn't arguing. It was a statement, and intended as such.<BR/><BR/><I>"So you try arguing against the idea that not all muslims are violent fanatics who want to blow up America. And i in turn will argue back.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, the arrogance. Did I <B>say</B> 'all Muslims are violent fanatics that wish to personally blow us up' or even anything remotely close to that?<BR/><BR/><I>"As for my "ignorance" being offensive? Why? who is offended if i argue something different from you? Or would you rather have it that all arguments that offend you should be stopped?"</I><BR/><BR/>My bad, it's not your ignorance that's offensive, it's your arrogance. Your ignorance is an annoyance. I certainly never asked any offensive arguments stop.<BR/><BR/><I>"I thought i had made the point clear that all nations were capable of horrific violence; england, china, america etc etc."</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, you also tried to equivocate it all. As if the Battle of Britain and Dresden were morally equal...<BR/><BR/><I>"We are all different. The trick is to learn how to live with each other."</I><BR/><BR/>Who seems to have a bigger problem with this idea, The United States, Europe, or the Arab World?<BR/><BR/><I>"Try to avoid thinking all muslims are the same becaause they really are not, just as all Americans are not."</I><BR/><BR/>Right, they're really all the same, eh? And you're just like an SS trooper, right? Or for that matter, just like Ymar? Yeah, righteeoooo...<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Justin- <I>"which may seem surprising for people who think that EVERY Palestinian condones suicide bombings, infact MANY do not, especially now a days. It was different during the intifada, back then it was resistance, but these days it is really terror.</I><BR/><BR/>And what changed? 9/11. Suddenly the potential cost of terrorism looked like a bigger check than they wanted to cash, but when it was working with (relative) impunity... then it was o.k. Doesn't this say something to you? “oh dear Douglas have i upset you? Just giving an opinion. Sorry if i don’t agree with you.”

disagreement is fine. I get annoyed with those who have the arrogance to tell me they know muslims better because they chat with their neighbors, and know nothing of what I may know or not.

“To be honest i don’t see how you can mount a personal attack on me….we don’t know each other personally. You can say everything I write is crap, or to use your word, written by an idiot….but it isn’t much of an argument.”

I wasn’t arguing. It was a statement, and intended as such.

“So you try arguing against the idea that not all muslims are violent fanatics who want to blow up America. And i in turn will argue back.

Again, the arrogance. Did I say ‘all Muslims are violent fanatics that wish to personally blow us up’ or even anything remotely close to that?

“As for my “ignorance” being offensive? Why? who is offended if i argue something different from you? Or would you rather have it that all arguments that offend you should be stopped?”

My bad, it’s not your ignorance that’s offensive, it’s your arrogance. Your ignorance is an annoyance. I certainly never asked any offensive arguments stop.

“I thought i had made the point clear that all nations were capable of horrific violence; england, china, america etc etc.”

Yes, you also tried to equivocate it all. As if the Battle of Britain and Dresden were morally equal…

“We are all different. The trick is to learn how to live with each other.”

Who seems to have a bigger problem with this idea, The United States, Europe, or the Arab World?

“Try to avoid thinking all muslims are the same becaause they really are not, just as all Americans are not.”

Right, they’re really all the same, eh? And you’re just like an SS trooper, right? Or for that matter, just like Ymar? Yeah, righteeoooo…

Oh, and Justin- “which may seem surprising for people who think that EVERY Palestinian condones suicide bombings, infact MANY do not, especially now a days. It was different during the intifada, back then it was resistance, but these days it is really terror.

And what changed? 9/11. Suddenly the potential cost of terrorism looked like a bigger check than they wanted to cash, but when it was working with (relative) impunity… then it was o.k. Doesn’t this say something to you?

]]> By: snowpea http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12970 snowpea Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12970 In the main post, we are directed to a Front Page Magazine symposium as evidence that there is a struggle going on between moderate and extremist Muslims. If you read this symposium, you will find that one of the two featured "moderates" is a Muslim chauvinist who thinks that there is more intellectual freedom in Saudi Arabia than in the West; and the other bases his moderate religion on the principle that "perception is reality....reality is whatever you want it to be....the Koran says whatever you want it to say." In other words, one moderate is not a moderate in any sense recognizable to Westerners, while the other may be a genuine moderate, but lacks any basis for his moderation other than wishful thinking. (Which is not surprising, since wishful thinking is the only way you are going to get a moderate religion out of the Koran.) If he is a true representative of Muslim moderation, it is not surprising that they seem to have been losing the struggle for the past several decades. In the main post, we are directed to a Front Page Magazine symposium as evidence that there is a struggle going on between moderate and extremist Muslims. If you read this symposium, you will find that one of the two featured “moderates” is a Muslim chauvinist who thinks that there is more intellectual freedom in Saudi Arabia than in the West; and the other bases his moderate religion on the principle that “perception is reality….reality is whatever you want it to be….the Koran says whatever you want it to say.” In other words, one moderate is not a moderate in any sense recognizable to Westerners, while the other may be a genuine moderate, but lacks any basis for his moderation other than wishful thinking. (Which is not surprising, since wishful thinking is the only way you are going to get a moderate religion out of the Koran.) If he is a true representative of Muslim moderation, it is not surprising that they seem to have been losing the struggle for the past several decades.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12971 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12971 One of the principles in a propaganda war is that if you don't know about it, it doesn't exist for you. That applies to houses and anything else the Israelis do or don't do. One of the principles in a propaganda war is that if you don’t know about it, it doesn’t exist for you. That applies to houses and anything else the Israelis do or don’t do.

]]> By: Anonymous http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12972 Anonymous Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12972 "Remember we don't have law enforcement (because Israel govt will not allow us to-"<BR/><BR/>Full stop there.<BR/><BR/>"Because Israel will not allow us to-"<BR/><BR/>That one lie just invalidated anything else the little princess could say.<BR/><BR/>Do you know how many houses Israel built in the West Bank and Gaza Strip FOR PALESTINIANS TO USE?<BR/><BR/>No, they wouldn't do that. They couldn't do that. They're mean Israelis, who never built a house for any Palestinian, never paid a Palestinian a fair wage, and certainly never treated an injured Palestinian.<BR/><BR/>This "winning hearts and minds" thing? Israel never did it, only to watch their carpenters and managers and doctors get murdered over and over.<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't fit our nice, symmetrical world view.<BR/><BR/>If the Israelis won't let the Palestinians have law enforcement, why do we keep hearing about Palestinian police stations getting sacked by this or that terrorist faction?<BR/><BR/>I call bullshit on the whole thing. “Remember we don’t have law enforcement (because Israel govt will not allow us to-”

Full stop there.

“Because Israel will not allow us to-”

That one lie just invalidated anything else the little princess could say.

Do you know how many houses Israel built in the West Bank and Gaza Strip FOR PALESTINIANS TO USE?

No, they wouldn’t do that. They couldn’t do that. They’re mean Israelis, who never built a house for any Palestinian, never paid a Palestinian a fair wage, and certainly never treated an injured Palestinian.

This “winning hearts and minds” thing? Israel never did it, only to watch their carpenters and managers and doctors get murdered over and over.

Wouldn’t fit our nice, symmetrical world view.

If the Israelis won’t let the Palestinians have law enforcement, why do we keep hearing about Palestinian police stations getting sacked by this or that terrorist faction?

I call bullshit on the whole thing.

]]> By: Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12973 Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12973 Oh, oh! From the same blog:<BR/><BR/><I>What awed me when I went to Palestine was the strength of my hosts. Despite being shot at every day, their children murdered, hundred-year-old olive groves bulldozed, the daily humiliations at Abu Holi and Erez and Kalandia--where 18-year-olds pumped on testosterone and American made M-16s humiliated men and women just because they could, despite all of this and more, my hosts worked hard, fed their children and amazingly had hope for peace.<BR/><BR/>I am sick to death of expressions from Westerners and yes, Israelis too bemoaning the cycle of violence, as if an 18 month old child was shot in the head by a tornado or tsunami and not a bored soldier in Rafah. Hand wringers who are horrified by suicide bombers, but are not horrified when American made F16s bomb apartment buildings in Gaza City.</I> Oh, oh! From the same blog:

What awed me when I went to Palestine was the strength of my hosts. Despite being shot at every day, their children murdered, hundred-year-old olive groves bulldozed, the daily humiliations at Abu Holi and Erez and Kalandia–where 18-year-olds pumped on testosterone and American made M-16s humiliated men and women just because they could, despite all of this and more, my hosts worked hard, fed their children and amazingly had hope for peace.

I am sick to death of expressions from Westerners and yes, Israelis too bemoaning the cycle of violence, as if an 18 month old child was shot in the head by a tornado or tsunami and not a bored soldier in Rafah. Hand wringers who are horrified by suicide bombers, but are not horrified when American made F16s bomb apartment buildings in Gaza City.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12974 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12974 I was having a direct discourse with Princess, because she emailed me several months ago and I hadn't returned the favor. Why?<BR/><BR/>Because it was too emotional. I was caught up in a conflict between hating her and feeling sympathy for her, and at the same time I was considering the socio-political issues of Hamas, jihad, Israel, and etc.<BR/><BR/>I didn't know what to think or feel. Sad, happy, contempt, sympathy.<BR/><BR/>I wanted so much to blame her for believing in the lies of Hamas and being manipulated, and yet intellectually I knew that it really wasn't her fault. Now it seems she never did believe in Hamas's lies in the first place, or at least not in so far as she realized.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://palestinianprincess.blogspot.com/2006/04/psst-she-is-palestinian-so-she-hates.html#links" REL="nofollow">Link</A><BR/><BR/>Link has the comment thread where she and I talked. This is particularly relevant, and Justin might want to read it.<BR/><BR/><B>Your right... I think it is a way to fuel Palestinians to support hamas, but I do not agree with you on the second part much. Ok, we do not have the organization, or the weapons, but WE DO HAVE THE WILL...<BR/><BR/>You know the "thugs" you speak of, I WANNA RUN OVER THEM WITH MY CAR WHEN I SEE THEM (Ok, a bit much) but I can't stand them. They are really stupid. They are so stupid that if someone even says a word to them, they will shoot them dead.<BR/><BR/>So its not that we dont have the will, its just that if we say something we can easily be killed. Remember we don't have law enforcement (because Israel govt will not allow us to-so that sure doesnt help).</B><BR/><BR/>Her words, in reply to when I said that Hamas was manipulating people like Princess here, by getting Israelis to attack them.<BR/><BR/>See, it didn't change. It doesn't matter if you know Hamas's guerrila strategy, it still works. It works independent of whether you recognize it intellectually or not, because it is an emotional attack, not an intellectual debate.<BR/><BR/>Israel won't do the things we do in Iraq and Afghanistan, to win over the hearts and minds of Palestinians. It is not that they can't, because Israeli doctors perform free surgeries or whatever on Palestinian children. But they don't do it "actively" in occupied territories. Now that they don't have occupied territories for the most part, they lost the chance.<BR/><BR/>If the Israels are this bad at guerrila warfare, no wonder the French got their asses kicked in Vietnam and left the mess there for us to clean up. I was having a direct discourse with Princess, because she emailed me several months ago and I hadn’t returned the favor. Why?

Because it was too emotional. I was caught up in a conflict between hating her and feeling sympathy for her, and at the same time I was considering the socio-political issues of Hamas, jihad, Israel, and etc.

I didn’t know what to think or feel. Sad, happy, contempt, sympathy.

I wanted so much to blame her for believing in the lies of Hamas and being manipulated, and yet intellectually I knew that it really wasn’t her fault. Now it seems she never did believe in Hamas’s lies in the first place, or at least not in so far as she realized.

Link

Link has the comment thread where she and I talked. This is particularly relevant, and Justin might want to read it.

Your right… I think it is a way to fuel Palestinians to support hamas, but I do not agree with you on the second part much. Ok, we do not have the organization, or the weapons, but WE DO HAVE THE WILL…

You know the “thugs” you speak of, I WANNA RUN OVER THEM WITH MY CAR WHEN I SEE THEM (Ok, a bit much) but I can’t stand them. They are really stupid. They are so stupid that if someone even says a word to them, they will shoot them dead.

So its not that we dont have the will, its just that if we say something we can easily be killed. Remember we don’t have law enforcement (because Israel govt will not allow us to-so that sure doesnt help).

Her words, in reply to when I said that Hamas was manipulating people like Princess here, by getting Israelis to attack them.

See, it didn’t change. It doesn’t matter if you know Hamas’s guerrila strategy, it still works. It works independent of whether you recognize it intellectually or not, because it is an emotional attack, not an intellectual debate.

Israel won’t do the things we do in Iraq and Afghanistan, to win over the hearts and minds of Palestinians. It is not that they can’t, because Israeli doctors perform free surgeries or whatever on Palestinian children. But they don’t do it “actively” in occupied territories. Now that they don’t have occupied territories for the most part, they lost the chance.

If the Israels are this bad at guerrila warfare, no wonder the French got their asses kicked in Vietnam and left the mess there for us to clean up.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12975 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12975 Probably. A lot of people believe what they want to believe. The Left believes Amanie is lying about nukes in Iran, hrm right.<BR/><BR/>Self-deception isn't a trait the Left has a monopoly on. The right and Republicans and conservatives are human as well.<BR/><BR/>This should always be factored into any guerrila or counter-guerrila insurgency. If you don't, your projections will go bad. Probably. A lot of people believe what they want to believe. The Left believes Amanie is lying about nukes in Iran, hrm right.

Self-deception isn’t a trait the Left has a monopoly on. The right and Republicans and conservatives are human as well.

This should always be factored into any guerrila or counter-guerrila insurgency. If you don’t, your projections will go bad.

]]> By: Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12976 Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12976 *cough*<BR/><BR/><I>which may seem surprising for people who think that EVERY Palestinian condones suicide bombings, infact MANY do not, especially now a days. It was different during the intifada, back then it was resistance, but these days it is really terror.</I><BR/><BR/>---------------------------------<BR/><BR/><I>Tomer, "not as bad as the other major human rights violators" is hardly a robust defence of the Israeli occupation force.<BR/><BR/>Not that I haven't heard it before.<BR/><BR/>But I am not comforted that those who shoot children and bomb apartment houses see themselves as more moral than George W. Bush, Hu Jintao, or Vladimir Putin.</I><BR/><BR/>---------------------------------<BR/><BR/><I>why doesnt israel wipe gaza off the map? well its effectively doing so. by shelling its people, closing the borders so people don't get food; paralyzing the economy- i think this a reciepe for complete destruction, is it not? israel itself proclaimed it has placed gaza on 'a diet'.</I><BR/><BR/>---------------------------------<BR/><BR/><I>The Israeli occupation forces certainly made a good start wiping Rafah off the map</I><BR/><BR/>All that from just ONE <A HREF="http://palestinianprincess.blogspot.com/2006/04/6-israelis-killed-by-suicide-bomber-in.html" REL="nofollow">thread </A> on what seems to be a pretty moderate (as in nonextremist) Palestinian site. You gonna go tell them they're lying? *cough*

which may seem surprising for people who think that EVERY Palestinian condones suicide bombings, infact MANY do not, especially now a days. It was different during the intifada, back then it was resistance, but these days it is really terror.

———————————

Tomer, “not as bad as the other major human rights violators” is hardly a robust defence of the Israeli occupation force.

Not that I haven’t heard it before.

But I am not comforted that those who shoot children and bomb apartment houses see themselves as more moral than George W. Bush, Hu Jintao, or Vladimir Putin.

———————————

why doesnt israel wipe gaza off the map? well its effectively doing so. by shelling its people, closing the borders so people don’t get food; paralyzing the economy- i think this a reciepe for complete destruction, is it not? israel itself proclaimed it has placed gaza on ‘a diet’.

———————————

The Israeli occupation forces certainly made a good start wiping Rafah off the map

All that from just ONE thread on what seems to be a pretty moderate (as in nonextremist) Palestinian site. You gonna go tell them they’re lying?

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12977 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12977 <B>While this may doom Israel, I'll be damned if I let people like Justin try to pretend that there is similarity of any kind between the two sides.</B><BR/><BR/>Then you're going to lose, because you lack the tactical flexibility to adapt to new wars. And I wouldn't want you on my team of analysts.<BR/><BR/>If you can't override your emotional instances by the logic and the facts, then you are of no use in stopping the enemy and predicting what the enemy can or will do.<BR/><BR/>If a Special Forces operator got angry everytime he was compared to a terroist, because SF uses guerrila style tactics, then that SFer should never have passed his commando training.<BR/><BR/><B>Just because it lets you wash your hands of the whole thing, with a pious assertation of, "Both sides are equally bad," </B><BR/><BR/>The only person saying that is you, it is neither the position of Justin nor mine. While this may doom Israel, I’ll be damned if I let people like Justin try to pretend that there is similarity of any kind between the two sides.

Then you’re going to lose, because you lack the tactical flexibility to adapt to new wars. And I wouldn’t want you on my team of analysts.

If you can’t override your emotional instances by the logic and the facts, then you are of no use in stopping the enemy and predicting what the enemy can or will do.

If a Special Forces operator got angry everytime he was compared to a terroist, because SF uses guerrila style tactics, then that SFer should never have passed his commando training.

Just because it lets you wash your hands of the whole thing, with a pious assertation of, “Both sides are equally bad,”

The only person saying that is you, it is neither the position of Justin nor mine.

]]> By: Anonymous http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12978 Anonymous Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12978 The Israelis are too badly scarred by the Holocaust to ever engage in actions that aren't as clearly moral as it's possible to be. They will never execute terrorists that have already been captured, and the reason they bulldoze houses is because they can't bring themselves to bulldoze people. Even their assassinations are targeted as specifically and as precisely as their technology allows.<BR/><BR/>While this may doom Israel, I'll be damned if I let people like Justin try to pretend that there is similarity of any kind between the two sides. Just because it lets you wash your hands of the whole thing, with a pious assertation of, "Both sides are equally bad," DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.<BR/><BR/>And I'm pretty certain the Palestinians don't believe it either. If they think the Israelis are a bunch of asshat murdering terrorists, why are the Palestinians always clamoring for access to Israeli hospitals? The Israelis are too badly scarred by the Holocaust to ever engage in actions that aren’t as clearly moral as it’s possible to be. They will never execute terrorists that have already been captured, and the reason they bulldoze houses is because they can’t bring themselves to bulldoze people. Even their assassinations are targeted as specifically and as precisely as their technology allows.

While this may doom Israel, I’ll be damned if I let people like Justin try to pretend that there is similarity of any kind between the two sides. Just because it lets you wash your hands of the whole thing, with a pious assertation of, “Both sides are equally bad,” DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.

And I’m pretty certain the Palestinians don’t believe it either. If they think the Israelis are a bunch of asshat murdering terrorists, why are the Palestinians always clamoring for access to Israeli hospitals?

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12979 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12979 <B>To be honest i don't see how you can mount a personal attack on me....we don't know each other personally. You can say everything I write is crap, or to use your word, written by an idiot....but it isn't much of an argument.</B><BR/><BR/>Man, look at david go. Just look at him, whydontcha. To be honest i don’t see how you can mount a personal attack on me….we don’t know each other personally. You can say everything I write is crap, or to use your word, written by an idiot….but it isn’t much of an argument.

Man, look at david go. Just look at him, whydontcha.

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12980 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12980 oh dear Douglas have i upset you? Just giving an opinion. Sorry if i don't agree with you.<BR/><BR/>To be honest i don't see how you can mount a personal attack on me....we don't know each other personally. You can say everything I write is crap, or to use your word, written by an idiot....but it isn't much of an argument.<BR/><BR/>So you try arguing against the idea that not all muslims are violent fanatics who want to blow up America. And i in turn will argue back.<BR/><BR/>As for my "ignorance" being offensive? Why? who is offended if i argue something different from you? Or would you rather have it that all arguments that offend you should be stopped? <BR/><BR/>I thought i had made the point clear that all nations were capable of horrific violence; england, china, america etc etc.<BR/><BR/>So why don't you calm down from your outrage and start arguing. You never know, you might enjoy it.<BR/><BR/>happy friday<BR/><BR/>david oh dear Douglas have i upset you? Just giving an opinion. Sorry if i don’t agree with you.

To be honest i don’t see how you can mount a personal attack on me….we don’t know each other personally. You can say everything I write is crap, or to use your word, written by an idiot….but it isn’t much of an argument.

So you try arguing against the idea that not all muslims are violent fanatics who want to blow up America. And i in turn will argue back.

As for my “ignorance” being offensive? Why? who is offended if i argue something different from you? Or would you rather have it that all arguments that offend you should be stopped?

I thought i had made the point clear that all nations were capable of horrific violence; england, china, america etc etc.

So why don’t you calm down from your outrage and start arguing. You never know, you might enjoy it.

happy friday

david

]]> By: douglas http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12981 douglas Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12981 <I>"When churches fall completely out of use<BR/>What we shall turn them into..."</I><BR/><BR/>hmmm, Mosques?<BR/><BR/>Sounds like sooner rather than later in the UK...<BR/><BR/>Oh, and David, you are an idiot. Yes, I'm attacking you personally. Anyone who pulls out the 'I know muslims, and you obviously don't' line is an ass.<BR/>As for 'they are people', indeed. So were the citizens of Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany... 'people' are capable of all sorts of things that you might not be able to even imagine. I'm half Chinese, and the chinese are people too (in case you don't know any), and they perpetrated some of the most ghastly 'inhumanity' in history. Your ignorance is dangerous, and offensive. “When churches fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into…”

hmmm, Mosques?

Sounds like sooner rather than later in the UK…

Oh, and David, you are an idiot. Yes, I’m attacking you personally. Anyone who pulls out the ‘I know muslims, and you obviously don’t’ line is an ass.
As for ‘they are people’, indeed. So were the citizens of Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany… ‘people’ are capable of all sorts of things that you might not be able to even imagine. I’m half Chinese, and the chinese are people too (in case you don’t know any), and they perpetrated some of the most ghastly ‘inhumanity’ in history. Your ignorance is dangerous, and offensive.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12982 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12982 Guerrilas don't need host populations to like the guerrilas. Guerrilas just need the people to be more scared of the guerrilas than they are of the United States, and they can get the help of the locals in waging war vs America the Great Satan. It's a great psychological therapy for being helpless to fight domestic tyrannies. Like a bully, they'll pick on the weaklings who won't fight back, rather than the people who will slap them down with an iron rod at the first instance of rebellion. The Saudis figured this out like decades ago, it was far better socially for their citizens to hate America than for them to hate the Saudi Royal family. Hating America had boat loads of benefits pre 9/11, and no detriments at all, no risk, no interest payments.<BR/><BR/><B>Look at their actions, not at their words. Do you know how many times they have rejected offers to acvomodate all their demands? Do you know how many times Hamas has sent suicide bombers into Israel since they declared they were no longer going to launch terrorist attacks?</B><BR/><BR/>Anon, go look up Guerrila Manuals available on a lot of internet sources. You'll see that the "enemy" is almost never as monolithic as you describe it here and now. There is even a CIA Guerrila Manual for South America groups, out on the internet, with detailed instructions for how to conduct guerrila operations and armed propaganda "operations". Islamic Jihad doesn't call suicide bombing an "operation", for no good reason. They do it because they're going by a manual, and that manual dictates how they will and can manipulate the Palestinian and the Israeli people.<BR/><BR/>There's too much information lacking to discuss the multiple layers in guerrila insurgency, if a person hasn't even read the basic instruction books.<BR/><BR/>I don't really believe Justin is advocating the position Europeans advocate, that Israel is to blame or that both sides is to blame, or whatever. So it's useless trying to argue that we should believe Israel has the moral right, because we do, and it doesn't matter, Israel still falls for the guerrila insurgency trick everytime they bulldoze a house over instead of executing jihadist terroists in their jails. Palestinian Princess gives the insider info, that only the blogosphere allows. But all of that could be derived from simple deductive logic from basic guerrila insurgency principles, even if you didn't know what was going on in Palestine.<BR/><BR/>Justin makes the morale judgement that david does not. Regardless of the psychological perspectives, Israel still holds the moral high ground. But everyone knows in war, moral high grounds doesn't win you anything except some popularity. Poplarity don't win wars. And sometimes popularity don't even win popularity, ala isarel vis a vis europe.<BR/><BR/>A nuclear attack on America would spiral the world economy into a Great Depression. This means what exactly? It means the rise of Chinese and Russian superpowerness through economic and energy controls. It means the eruption of social discontent and guerrila insurgency in Europe, greatly accelerating the amount of nuclear weaponry available to the Islamic Jihad through capture or co-option of European nuclear stocks. It means, economic trouble and fatigue for the United States, thereby halting aggressive and expensive military projects, foreign aid projects, and anything projects that harm Al Qaeda publicly and boasts American PR.<BR/><BR/>The terroists believe a nuclear threat or even the actual use of a nuke, constitutes as the ultimate in psychological warfare rendition. Their problem is that they could over-extend themselves, like Osama did on 9/11. Osama just lost his homebase as the price for that over-extension. Iran would lose a lot more than that if they made a mistake with the "nuke game". There's two sides to all conflicts, which means double the risk of someone doing something stupid. When that happens, the body bags start piling up. Guerrilas don’t need host populations to like the guerrilas. Guerrilas just need the people to be more scared of the guerrilas than they are of the United States, and they can get the help of the locals in waging war vs America the Great Satan. It’s a great psychological therapy for being helpless to fight domestic tyrannies. Like a bully, they’ll pick on the weaklings who won’t fight back, rather than the people who will slap them down with an iron rod at the first instance of rebellion. The Saudis figured this out like decades ago, it was far better socially for their citizens to hate America than for them to hate the Saudi Royal family. Hating America had boat loads of benefits pre 9/11, and no detriments at all, no risk, no interest payments.

Look at their actions, not at their words. Do you know how many times they have rejected offers to acvomodate all their demands? Do you know how many times Hamas has sent suicide bombers into Israel since they declared they were no longer going to launch terrorist attacks?

Anon, go look up Guerrila Manuals available on a lot of internet sources. You’ll see that the “enemy” is almost never as monolithic as you describe it here and now. There is even a CIA Guerrila Manual for South America groups, out on the internet, with detailed instructions for how to conduct guerrila operations and armed propaganda “operations”. Islamic Jihad doesn’t call suicide bombing an “operation”, for no good reason. They do it because they’re going by a manual, and that manual dictates how they will and can manipulate the Palestinian and the Israeli people.

There’s too much information lacking to discuss the multiple layers in guerrila insurgency, if a person hasn’t even read the basic instruction books.

I don’t really believe Justin is advocating the position Europeans advocate, that Israel is to blame or that both sides is to blame, or whatever. So it’s useless trying to argue that we should believe Israel has the moral right, because we do, and it doesn’t matter, Israel still falls for the guerrila insurgency trick everytime they bulldoze a house over instead of executing jihadist terroists in their jails. Palestinian Princess gives the insider info, that only the blogosphere allows. But all of that could be derived from simple deductive logic from basic guerrila insurgency principles, even if you didn’t know what was going on in Palestine.

Justin makes the morale judgement that david does not. Regardless of the psychological perspectives, Israel still holds the moral high ground. But everyone knows in war, moral high grounds doesn’t win you anything except some popularity. Poplarity don’t win wars. And sometimes popularity don’t even win popularity, ala isarel vis a vis europe.

A nuclear attack on America would spiral the world economy into a Great Depression. This means what exactly? It means the rise of Chinese and Russian superpowerness through economic and energy controls. It means the eruption of social discontent and guerrila insurgency in Europe, greatly accelerating the amount of nuclear weaponry available to the Islamic Jihad through capture or co-option of European nuclear stocks. It means, economic trouble and fatigue for the United States, thereby halting aggressive and expensive military projects, foreign aid projects, and anything projects that harm Al Qaeda publicly and boasts American PR.

The terroists believe a nuclear threat or even the actual use of a nuke, constitutes as the ultimate in psychological warfare rendition. Their problem is that they could over-extend themselves, like Osama did on 9/11. Osama just lost his homebase as the price for that over-extension. Iran would lose a lot more than that if they made a mistake with the “nuke game”. There’s two sides to all conflicts, which means double the risk of someone doing something stupid. When that happens, the body bags start piling up.

]]> By: Anonymous http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12983 Anonymous Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12983 "Now you're a Palestinian trying to get on with your life. You're not a terrorist, but your house just got ransacked by crazy Israeli soldiers for some reason or other you're not quite sure of, and in the ensuing fight one of your family members got killed. It's not the first time this has happened, and you're sick of it, and sick of the people who just invaded your town."<BR/><BR/>See, there's the problem. That's not how Palestinians think. That's only what they SAY they think, because they've learned that, as long as they keep accusing everyone else of doing whatever they themselves do, regardless of whether it's true or not, they can keep people like you dithering about for however long it takes to overthrow your society.<BR/><BR/>Look at their actions, not at their words. Do you know how many times they have rejected offers to acvomodate all their demands? Do you know how many times Hamas has sent suicide bombers into Israel since they declared they were no longer going to launch terrorist attacks?<BR/><BR/>Do you even care whether they are lying or not any more? “Now you’re a Palestinian trying to get on with your life. You’re not a terrorist, but your house just got ransacked by crazy Israeli soldiers for some reason or other you’re not quite sure of, and in the ensuing fight one of your family members got killed. It’s not the first time this has happened, and you’re sick of it, and sick of the people who just invaded your town.”

See, there’s the problem. That’s not how Palestinians think. That’s only what they SAY they think, because they’ve learned that, as long as they keep accusing everyone else of doing whatever they themselves do, regardless of whether it’s true or not, they can keep people like you dithering about for however long it takes to overthrow your society.

Look at their actions, not at their words. Do you know how many times they have rejected offers to acvomodate all their demands? Do you know how many times Hamas has sent suicide bombers into Israel since they declared they were no longer going to launch terrorist attacks?

Do you even care whether they are lying or not any more?

]]> By: Spanky McSpankerton http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12984 Spanky McSpankerton Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12984 Jack,<BR/><BR/>I would argue that while support for bin Laden is high in many parts of the Muslim world, it is not high because there's support for his ideology.<BR/><BR/>In 2005, the Council on Foreign Relations conducted a series of focus groups in parts of the Muslim world. Local Islamists received very low support, and the participants indicated their desire for greater democracy and lower corruption in their governments as their highest priorities. bin Laden was the only Islamist to receive high ratings among the participants. They said they liked him not because of his ideology, but rather because he "stood up to America" - that is, he had assumed the David role against Goliath, and people liked him for it.<BR/><BR/>Mark Tessler of the University of Michigan conducted a series of statistical regressions of a series of factors in six Muslim countries. He was comparing rates of support for terrorism with other factors - gender, religiosity, income, etc. He found that the only correlations between support for terrorism were hostility towards US foreign policy and hostility toward one's own political system.<BR/><BR/>In other words, US foreign policy in the region is viewed negatively, and the US is perceived as supporting repressive regimes. bin Laden has portrayed himself as standing up to the US, which is unpopular. As a result, he is popular among Muslims not for his ideology, which most Muslims explicitly reject, but because they don't like us and he's hurting us. He's like their Robin Hood.<BR/><BR/>So, no. Most Muslims aren't terrorists. Nick, not everyone who's a Neocon or a conservative thinks this, and I never suggested otherwise. However, there ARE people of that persuasion - such as Jack here, or Yammr, who would argue that Muslims are the problem, and not a small sect of them. And the result of that is a) overheated, melodramatic rhetoric, and b) bad policies to respond to the problem when policy makers believe this crap. Jack,

I would argue that while support for bin Laden is high in many parts of the Muslim world, it is not high because there’s support for his ideology.

In 2005, the Council on Foreign Relations conducted a series of focus groups in parts of the Muslim world. Local Islamists received very low support, and the participants indicated their desire for greater democracy and lower corruption in their governments as their highest priorities. bin Laden was the only Islamist to receive high ratings among the participants. They said they liked him not because of his ideology, but rather because he “stood up to America” - that is, he had assumed the David role against Goliath, and people liked him for it.

Mark Tessler of the University of Michigan conducted a series of statistical regressions of a series of factors in six Muslim countries. He was comparing rates of support for terrorism with other factors - gender, religiosity, income, etc. He found that the only correlations between support for terrorism were hostility towards US foreign policy and hostility toward one’s own political system.

In other words, US foreign policy in the region is viewed negatively, and the US is perceived as supporting repressive regimes. bin Laden has portrayed himself as standing up to the US, which is unpopular. As a result, he is popular among Muslims not for his ideology, which most Muslims explicitly reject, but because they don’t like us and he’s hurting us. He’s like their Robin Hood.

So, no. Most Muslims aren’t terrorists. Nick, not everyone who’s a Neocon or a conservative thinks this, and I never suggested otherwise. However, there ARE people of that persuasion - such as Jack here, or Yammr, who would argue that Muslims are the problem, and not a small sect of them. And the result of that is a) overheated, melodramatic rhetoric, and b) bad policies to respond to the problem when policy makers believe this crap.

]]> By: Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12985 Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12985 I think Grackle and Ymarsakar's predictions are possible. Nationalism and hate of "terrorists" went through the roof after 9/11, and Bush's approval rating hit like 99% launching a counterattack on Afghanistan. If a nuke went off in the US, do you REALLY think that history wouldn't repeat itself, in intensity proportionate to the size of the terrorist attack (some 300-1000-fold, in this case)? Hell, if a nuke went off in the US right before the 2008 elections, they'd probably even give Bush a third term (constitution-tweaking and all). I think Grackle and Ymarsakar’s predictions are possible. Nationalism and hate of “terrorists” went through the roof after 9/11, and Bush’s approval rating hit like 99% launching a counterattack on Afghanistan. If a nuke went off in the US, do you REALLY think that history wouldn’t repeat itself, in intensity proportionate to the size of the terrorist attack (some 300-1000-fold, in this case)? Hell, if a nuke went off in the US right before the 2008 elections, they’d probably even give Bush a third term (constitution-tweaking and all).

]]> By: snowonpine http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12986 snowonpine Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12986 A few points. <BR/><BR/>As far as I was able to determine when I was researching the subject, there were two regimes responsible for killing the greatest number of people in the 20th century--the USSR and the PRC, the PRC probably edged out the USSr but they were both in the 10-20 million plus ranges and perhaps a whole lot more--at least that is what a congressionally mandated study found. The numbers weren't precise but they agreed generally with the other major sources for such statistics. The PRC twist was that recent publications by participants in the GPCR alleged that during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, "long pig" was on the menue at the mess halls used by some of the cadres in Beijing. <BR/><BR/>I spent some time studying nuclear weapons and chem/bio weapons effects. A nuclear attack on a U.S. city is not just an "It Sucks" event. This is not something the U.S. needs to experience and it is worth any and all efforts to prevent it happening. If anyone wants to see what is likely to happen, go the the FAS web site at www.fas.org and look for the Nuclear Weapons Effects Calculator, pick a major city and plug in some values. A few points.

As far as I was able to determine when I was researching the subject, there were two regimes responsible for killing the greatest number of people in the 20th century–the USSR and the PRC, the PRC probably edged out the USSr but they were both in the 10-20 million plus ranges and perhaps a whole lot more–at least that is what a congressionally mandated study found. The numbers weren’t precise but they agreed generally with the other major sources for such statistics. The PRC twist was that recent publications by participants in the GPCR alleged that during the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, “long pig” was on the menue at the mess halls used by some of the cadres in Beijing.

I spent some time studying nuclear weapons and chem/bio weapons effects. A nuclear attack on a U.S. city is not just an “It Sucks” event. This is not something the U.S. needs to experience and it is worth any and all efforts to prevent it happening. If anyone wants to see what is likely to happen, go the the FAS web site at www.fas.org and look for the Nuclear Weapons Effects Calculator, pick a major city and plug in some values.

]]> By: Jack Trainor http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12987 Jack Trainor Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12987 david -- Furthermore, in any other major religion such a declaration as Bin Laden's would be abominable.<BR/><BR/>If any major Christian leader said such a thing and bloodshed resulted, that leader would be reviled by virtually all Christians and massive demonstrations would follow to let the world know that terrorist acts are not Christian.<BR/><BR/>Clearly Muslims are upset by many things--cartoons of Muhammad for example--but not by the terrorist killings of civilian unbelievers by other Muslims in the name of Allah. david — Furthermore, in any other major religion such a declaration as Bin Laden’s would be abominable.

If any major Christian leader said such a thing and bloodshed resulted, that leader would be reviled by virtually all Christians and massive demonstrations would follow to let the world know that terrorist acts are not Christian.

Clearly Muslims are upset by many things–cartoons of Muhammad for example–but not by the terrorist killings of civilian unbelievers by other Muslims in the name of Allah.

]]> By: Jack Trainor http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12988 Jack Trainor Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12988 <I>The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it...<BR/><BR/>--Bin Laden, "Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders" 1998</I><BR/><BR/>david -- There is no current equivalent to this statement in any other major religion.<BR/><BR/>And this is not a tiny, crazed minority position within Islam either. Support for Bin Laden polls at 10%-60% of Muslims depending on the country.<BR/><BR/>A microscopic number of Muslims will unambiguously disavow Bin Laden and his methods, but that's it. The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies — civilians and military — is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it…

–Bin Laden, “Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders” 1998

david — There is no current equivalent to this statement in any other major religion.

And this is not a tiny, crazed minority position within Islam either. Support for Bin Laden polls at 10%-60% of Muslims depending on the country.

A microscopic number of Muslims will unambiguously disavow Bin Laden and his methods, but that’s it.

]]> By: Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12989 Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12989 <I>sorry snowonpine but there are lots of examples of non muslims committing barbaric acts.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually she (at least the name makes me think it's a she) said specifically "are there any Christian, Jewish or Buddhist groups committing similar atrocities?" Prune list and argue as needed. sorry snowonpine but there are lots of examples of non muslims committing barbaric acts.

Actually she (at least the name makes me think it’s a she) said specifically “are there any Christian, Jewish or Buddhist groups committing similar atrocities?” Prune list and argue as needed.

]]> By: snowonpine http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12990 snowonpine Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12990 I thought people would know what I meant. Perhaps I should have been more specific. In the present conflicts between Muslims and the West, who is practicing terrorism i.e. the deliberate infliction of maximum casualties on innocent civilians to incite terror as opposed to stand-up battles between uniformed national military units. <BR/><BR/>Non-uniformed civilians affiliated with no national military-- terrorists or guerillas--get little or no protection under the sections of the Geneva Conventions dealing with prisoners of war; an issue currently being adjudicated in cases before the U.S. Supreme Court. <BR/><BR/>By the way, I am not willing to buy the argument, deconstructing the phrase "innocent civilians," that civilians, because they happen to be of a particular country, race, religion or ethnic group are, ipso facto, not innocent and are, therefore, a legitimate target for terrorists. I thought people would know what I meant. Perhaps I should have been more specific. In the present conflicts between Muslims and the West, who is practicing terrorism i.e. the deliberate infliction of maximum casualties on innocent civilians to incite terror as opposed to stand-up battles between uniformed national military units.

Non-uniformed civilians affiliated with no national military– terrorists or guerillas–get little or no protection under the sections of the Geneva Conventions dealing with prisoners of war; an issue currently being adjudicated in cases before the U.S. Supreme Court.

By the way, I am not willing to buy the argument, deconstructing the phrase “innocent civilians,” that civilians, because they happen to be of a particular country, race, religion or ethnic group are, ipso facto, not innocent and are, therefore, a legitimate target for terrorists.

]]> By: grackle http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12991 grackle Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12991 <I>How can there be a horde when there are, at most, a few thousand active terrorists?</I><BR/><BR/>It always amuses me that the anti-warriors alternate between the claim that the US is ‘creating’ (Carl Sagan voice) <I>billions & billions</I> of bloodthirsty vengeful terrorists with contrary assertions that the terrorists are not a threat. <BR/><BR/><I>A nuked city would suck, to put it mildly. But would it be the end of the US? Only if you believe the US is made of tissue paper could you believe that the loss of a city means that the US would be destroyed, or that we'd surrender to al Qa'ida.<BR/><BR/>In fact, I would go so far as to argue that EVEN IF THEY DETONATED A NUCLEAR WEAPON IN THE US, they still would not succeed in destroying the US.</I><BR/><BR/>Paraphrase: A million or more Americans murdered? No problem, what are you afraid of? After all, the US would survive. So just pipe down & passively wait for the explosion.<BR/><BR/>Yes, it seems unbelievable, doesn’t it? But that is exactly how the anti-warriors feel about the situation. <BR/><BR/>Yes, the US would survive but there would be 2 or 3 Middle Eastern nations that wouldn’t. Each US nuclear submarine carries about 150 of these: Thermonuclear MIRV (Multiple Independently Targetable re-entry Vehicle). Upon re-entry each of these missiles launches several warheads at different targets. Allowing for some system failure that would represent around 750 targets for one submarine. <BR/><BR/>Let’s pretend Iran develops some nukes. Let’s imagine further that Syria then joined the nuclear club. What would happen if bin Laden managed to detonate a nuke in the US? Some very ancient cities would cease to exist & hundreds of lessor population centers.<BR/><BR/>To those who believe that the above wouldn’t happen consider the following mental problem: A poisonous snake bit one of your children & then ran into a room & hid in one of two boxes. You know that one of the boxes contains the snake but it is impossible to know which one. You have a flamethrower. What do you do? Anti-warriors believe the US President would do nothing. I believe the US President would burn both boxes. <BR/><BR/>Actually, it wouldn’t matter too much just which despot actually provided the nuke, the point would be grasped that either one <I>could</I> & <I>would</I> be eager to have obliged if given the opportunity, given that both boxes have been guilty of harboring the snake & the snake’s ilk from time to time. Damascus & Tehran would be eliminated. <BR/><BR/>With the loss of a city America’s consciousness would be raised as to the danger from terror sponsoring states in general. After such an event there would be very little worry by Americans about the ‘morality’ of war. The realization would finally come that belligerent, fanatically religious states can never be allowed access to nuclear weaponry because the odds are too high that they will opt for jihad. How can there be a horde when there are, at most, a few thousand active terrorists?

It always amuses me that the anti-warriors alternate between the claim that the US is ‘creating’ (Carl Sagan voice) billions & billions of bloodthirsty vengeful terrorists with contrary assertions that the terrorists are not a threat.

A nuked city would suck, to put it mildly. But would it be the end of the US? Only if you believe the US is made of tissue paper could you believe that the loss of a city means that the US would be destroyed, or that we’d surrender to al Qa’ida.

In fact, I would go so far as to argue that EVEN IF THEY DETONATED A NUCLEAR WEAPON IN THE US, they still would not succeed in destroying the US.

Paraphrase: A million or more Americans murdered? No problem, what are you afraid of? After all, the US would survive. So just pipe down & passively wait for the explosion.

Yes, it seems unbelievable, doesn’t it? But that is exactly how the anti-warriors feel about the situation.

Yes, the US would survive but there would be 2 or 3 Middle Eastern nations that wouldn’t. Each US nuclear submarine carries about 150 of these: Thermonuclear MIRV (Multiple Independently Targetable re-entry Vehicle). Upon re-entry each of these missiles launches several warheads at different targets. Allowing for some system failure that would represent around 750 targets for one submarine.

Let’s pretend Iran develops some nukes. Let’s imagine further that Syria then joined the nuclear club. What would happen if bin Laden managed to detonate a nuke in the US? Some very ancient cities would cease to exist & hundreds of lessor population centers.

To those who believe that the above wouldn’t happen consider the following mental problem: A poisonous snake bit one of your children & then ran into a room & hid in one of two boxes. You know that one of the boxes contains the snake but it is impossible to know which one. You have a flamethrower. What do you do? Anti-warriors believe the US President would do nothing. I believe the US President would burn both boxes.

Actually, it wouldn’t matter too much just which despot actually provided the nuke, the point would be grasped that either one could & would be eager to have obliged if given the opportunity, given that both boxes have been guilty of harboring the snake & the snake’s ilk from time to time. Damascus & Tehran would be eliminated.

With the loss of a city America’s consciousness would be raised as to the danger from terror sponsoring states in general. After such an event there would be very little worry by Americans about the ‘morality’ of war. The realization would finally come that belligerent, fanatically religious states can never be allowed access to nuclear weaponry because the odds are too high that they will opt for jihad.

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12992 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12992 and just to brighten everyone's day i found this link<BR/><BR/>http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm<BR/><BR/>right its late here an di have depressed myself<BR/><BR/>Love and Peace<BR/><BR/>david and just to brighten everyone’s day i found this link

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

right its late here an di have depressed myself

Love and Peace

david

]]> By: david http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12993 david Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12993 sorry snowonpine but there are lots of examples of non muslims committing barbaric acts.<BR/><BR/>The whole of ww1<BR/>Japanese treatment of POWs and civilians<BR/>Rwanda<BR/>the Unabomber<BR/>The former Yugoslavia<BR/>American use of Napalm in Vietnam<BR/>IRA nail bombs in England<BR/>IRA did a nice line in kidnap and murder<BR/>Partition of India<BR/>The Red Brigades<BR/>Oklahoma City Bombing<BR/>Stalin<BR/>Mao<BR/>Mozambique<BR/>Necklacing in South Africa<BR/>Everybody using anti personal mines<BR/>The Holocaust<BR/>The bombing of Dresden<BR/>My Lai <BR/>Biafara<BR/>Spanish Civil War<BR/>Basque separatists<BR/>American support of deathsquads in Latin America Chile, guatemala etc.<BR/>British concentration camps in South Africa<BR/>Shatila<BR/>etc etc<BR/><BR/>The truth is that wars are very nasty and violent. People on both sides do despicable things, in essence they are about cutting the bodies of your opponents into pieces - hard to do in a civilised manner. As Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) wisely pointed out each side perceives the other as evil. Those terrorists who murder civilian workers in Iraq point to the blockade of Iraq whih they argue killed thousands of children and say "what kind of devils could do this" and that justifies their brutality and on it goes. The individuals concerned are guilty. Not all Christians/muslims/americans/welsh/blonde haired/red haired/short/tall/people<BR/><BR/>and its no use saying some of these are not recent...all nations seem to be capable of some grim things it just depends if they are at war or not.<BR/><BR/>cheerful stuff. sorry snowonpine but there are lots of examples of non muslims committing barbaric acts.

The whole of ww1
Japanese treatment of POWs and civilians
Rwanda
the Unabomber
The former Yugoslavia
American use of Napalm in Vietnam
IRA nail bombs in England
IRA did a nice line in kidnap and murder
Partition of India
The Red Brigades
Oklahoma City Bombing
Stalin
Mao
Mozambique
Necklacing in South Africa
Everybody using anti personal mines
The Holocaust
The bombing of Dresden
My Lai
Biafara
Spanish Civil War
Basque separatists
American support of deathsquads in Latin America Chile, guatemala etc.
British concentration camps in South Africa
Shatila
etc etc

The truth is that wars are very nasty and violent. People on both sides do despicable things, in essence they are about cutting the bodies of your opponents into pieces - hard to do in a civilised manner. As Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) wisely pointed out each side perceives the other as evil. Those terrorists who murder civilian workers in Iraq point to the blockade of Iraq whih they argue killed thousands of children and say “what kind of devils could do this” and that justifies their brutality and on it goes. The individuals concerned are guilty. Not all Christians/muslims/americans/welsh/blonde haired/red haired/short/tall/people

and its no use saying some of these are not recent…all nations seem to be capable of some grim things it just depends if they are at war or not.

cheerful stuff.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12994 Ymarsakar Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12994 <B>Ymarsakar: and when i said that you said you would fit right right in. back your kung fu and elves</B><BR/><BR/>And you need to stop lying, because the sentence you are refering to didn't mean that and anyone could see it if they could read it, and that is why you don't quote it. It's all from your memory, meaning they were fabricated.<BR/><BR/>All that still doesn't explain why Mr. British David here has the right to be a hypocrite, now does it.<BR/><BR/>To Justin and Co,<BR/><BR/><B>In fact there is nothing of the sort going on; the Israel / Palestine war is as asymmetrical as they come.</B><BR/><BR/>If you look up asymmetrical warfare, it includes guerrila warfare. Classical guerrila war doctrine mandates that you pick an enemy base to attack, thus inciting the enemy to slaughter innocent villagers in frustration. This gives you more support among the population, allowing you to carry on more operations. If you don't have enough force to assault a base successfully, then you do suicide bombings, or you kidnap people and execute them on tv, or you assassinate Israeli politicians. You get the picture.<BR/><BR/>The Palestinians have been mastering guerrila warfare for decades now. Even though the United States has less experience than Israel, the US is far better at guerrila warfare than Israel at the moment. Our doctrine in Iraq focuses on a melding and separation of hardcore/softcore terroists, as well as reducing US footprints. The Israelis have been doing this for decades, and they've fortified their defenses up, but they still go into people's houses and either bulldoze them or frighten the local Palestinians.<BR/><BR/>Attempts to turn the population on the guerrilas are done about the same as the US does in Iraq and Afghanistan, only a bit more ruthless. Attempts to turn the population against the Jews/occupation Americans are sorta like Fallujah on steroids. Whoever is more ruthless and smart, wins. Whoever gives up first, loses. Whoever can get the support of the native population for the longest period of time and with the greatest fervor, have a very high chance of ultimate victory eventually.<BR/><BR/>The variables are however, numerous. Depending upon foreign aid, sanctuary zones, firepower, discipline, munitions, funds, and so on.<BR/><BR/>If you read, google Palestinian Princess, you will see the Palestinian side of it, and I suggest you might want to go there and learn something.<BR/><BR/>Whoever can convert more of the population to his side, wins. If both sides have half and half, guerrila wars continue on through attrition until everybody dies. Israel came up with the Wall. But the Wall itself would never be enough. The election of Hamas is a good thing, because it brings symmetry to the war, and guerrilas can't fight a symmetrical warfare. Even though they are terroists and should rightfully be called that, their military goals are exactly like those from classical guerrila manuals by the Chinese for example.<BR/><BR/>If people want to solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem, they have to choose one side. If they want to choose Both sides, then they have to bring the war to a more symmetrical layout. If you can get Hamas's funds cut off, permanently, then Hamas will not have the resources to convince the Palestinian people that Hamas is their friend and Israel is their enemy.<BR/><BR/>You can break out of cycles of violence, but you have to increase the violence to the point where the reaction completes itself by running out of a reagent. Ymarsakar: and when i said that you said you would fit right right in. back your kung fu and elves

And you need to stop lying, because the sentence you are refering to didn’t mean that and anyone could see it if they could read it, and that is why you don’t quote it. It’s all from your memory, meaning they were fabricated.

All that still doesn’t explain why Mr. British David here has the right to be a hypocrite, now does it.

To Justin and Co,

In fact there is nothing of the sort going on; the Israel / Palestine war is as asymmetrical as they come.

If you look up asymmetrical warfare, it includes guerrila warfare. Classical guerrila war doctrine mandates that you pick an enemy base to attack, thus inciting the enemy to slaughter innocent villagers in frustration. This gives you more support among the population, allowing you to carry on more operations. If you don’t have enough force to assault a base successfully, then you do suicide bombings, or you kidnap people and execute them on tv, or you assassinate Israeli politicians. You get the picture.

The Palestinians have been mastering guerrila warfare for decades now. Even though the United States has less experience than Israel, the US is far better at guerrila warfare than Israel at the moment. Our doctrine in Iraq focuses on a melding and separation of hardcore/softcore terroists, as well as reducing US footprints. The Israelis have been doing this for decades, and they’ve fortified their defenses up, but they still go into people’s houses and either bulldoze them or frighten the local Palestinians.

Attempts to turn the population on the guerrilas are done about the same as the US does in Iraq and Afghanistan, only a bit more ruthless. Attempts to turn the population against the Jews/occupation Americans are sorta like Fallujah on steroids. Whoever is more ruthless and smart, wins. Whoever gives up first, loses. Whoever can get the support of the native population for the longest period of time and with the greatest fervor, have a very high chance of ultimate victory eventually.

The variables are however, numerous. Depending upon foreign aid, sanctuary zones, firepower, discipline, munitions, funds, and so on.

If you read, google Palestinian Princess, you will see the Palestinian side of it, and I suggest you might want to go there and learn something.

Whoever can convert more of the population to his side, wins. If both sides have half and half, guerrila wars continue on through attrition until everybody dies. Israel came up with the Wall. But the Wall itself would never be enough. The election of Hamas is a good thing, because it brings symmetry to the war, and guerrilas can’t fight a symmetrical warfare. Even though they are terroists and should rightfully be called that, their military goals are exactly like those from classical guerrila manuals by the Chinese for example.

If people want to solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem, they have to choose one side. If they want to choose Both sides, then they have to bring the war to a more symmetrical layout. If you can get Hamas’s funds cut off, permanently, then Hamas will not have the resources to convince the Palestinian people that Hamas is their friend and Israel is their enemy.

You can break out of cycles of violence, but you have to increase the violence to the point where the reaction completes itself by running out of a reagent.

]]> By: Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12995 Justin Olbrantz (Quantam) Sun, 23 Apr 2006 09:56:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/04/19/sea-of-faith-ebb-and-flow-of-religion/#comment-12995 <I>No we don't. In fact there is nothing of the sort going on; the Israel / Palestine war is as asymmetrical as they come. Only a madman would call Israel identical to Palestine, but then, the madmen would seem to be running the asylum these days.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you missed my point, completely. I never said they were the same, only that they can be perceived as the same with the right conditions.<BR/><BR/>A terrorist blows himself up in Israel, killing say 20 people, including a couple of your family members. This has been going on for years, and you're sick of it, and sick of the people doing this to you. And so is your government. <BR/><BR/>They respond in their usual manner: send a military troop to hunt down the culprits responsible for the blasts. Maybe sack a few homes looking for evidence or materials for further terrorist attacks. Maybe get in some fights with terrorists at the scene, maybe in the fighting a few civilians get killed.<BR/><BR/>Now you're a Palestinian trying to get on with your life. You're not a terrorist, but your house just got ransacked by crazy Israeli soldiers for some reason or other you're not quite sure of, and in the ensuing fight one of your family members got killed. It's not the first time this has happened, and you're sick of it, and sick of the people who just invaded your town.<BR/><BR/>Lacking the power to make an actual military assault on the people responsible, you settle for the best hope of inciting change that you have