Sudan is a terror-sponsoring country – no dispute about that.

The Government of Saudi Arabia maintains close relationships with other state sponsors of terrorism and has provided safe haven to members of al Qaeda.

I don’t dispute that Saudi Arabia may maintain diplomatic relations with embassies, etc. with Iran and other terror-sponsoring nations. Such a relationship would be very useful for those ‘back-channel’ contacts with the US. But when I Google “Saudi Arabia al Qaeda” all I get is a lot of examples of the Saudis killing al Qaeda.

The Government of the U.A.E. maintains close relationships with other state sponsors of terrorism and has provided safe haven to members of al Qaeda.

Sorry, Mary, but I can’t just take your word. Your going to have to provide some credible links before I’ll buy into it.

ETA, FARC and the ELN have not murdered thousands of American citizens.

You mean that if terrorists murder other people and not Americans, that’s OK?

But, the UAE, the Sudan and Saudi pretend to cooperate with our government. That’s why they’re our close allies.

I don’t think the UAE and Saudi Arabia deserve to be placed in the same category as Sudan. I think that they do more than “pretend.” Although I’ll grant you that ultimately the Saudis and the UAE are not to be trusted too far.

I am interested in any links you may have about “the realpolitik mess.” I’m not sure just what you mean by “the realpolitik mess” but it sounds interesting.

We’re not fighting a war against terrorism. We’re fighting a war against anyone who won’t do what we say, we’re fighting the desiccated remains of the cold war because we’re used to doing that, we’re fighting a war against some bad guys but not the bad guys who pretend to do what we say because they’re pretending to help us fight the other bad guys.

That’s your interpretation. My analysis: The US is fighting the chief “bad guys” and saving the little “bad guys” for later. One war at a time is enough, don’t you think?

Mary, at least you recognize that there is a terrorism problem and seem to be for action against terror-sponsoring states.

The Government of the Sudan maintains close relationships with other state sponsors of terrorism and has provided safe haven to members of al Qaeda. The Government of Saudi Arabia maintains close relationships with other state sponsors of terrorism and has provided safe haven to members of al Qaeda. The Government of the U.A.E. maintains close relationships with other state sponsors of terrorism and has provided safe haven to members of al Qaeda.

ETA, FARC and the ELN have not murdered thousands of American citizens. But, the UAE, the Sudan and Saudi pretend to cooperate with our government. That’s why they’re our close allies.

We’re not fighting a war against terrorism. We’re fighting a war against anyone who won’t do what we say, we’re fighting the dessicated remains of the cold war because we’re used to doing that, we’re figting a war against some bad guys but not the bad guys who pretend to do what we say because they’re pretending to help us fight the other bad guys.

Do you think the American people would have supported a some bad guys but not the bad guys who pretend to do what we say because they’re pretending to help us fight the other bad guys. . Do you think Americans would have support the realpolitik mess that we’re currently ‘fighting’ now? No. That’s why Bush sold it as a war against terror.

I’m not saying that we should fight this war another way, although I really think we should. But, our politicians will always work in their own interests, the are happy in their cold war rut, so they’ll do what they please.

However, when they try to sell the next war as ‘anti-terrorism’ there’s no way I’m buying it.

The worst part is, even though we’re not really trying, we’re fighting terrorism much more effectively than the Europeans. They’re hopeless. Sometimes I seriously doubt that nation-states (’helped’ by the UN, of course) are able to handle the problem at all.

Carter did trust the Ayatollahs, Komeini. Bush trusted Chirac and Blair. But Bush does not trust Saudi Arabia however, or Syria, or Iran, or even particularly Pakistan and Libya.

Mary’s reply: Saudi Arabia and the Sudan are as culpable as the Taliban. So was the UAE. So was Iran. If you read Robert Baer’s Sleeping with the Devil or Robert Baer’s Hatred’s Kingdom you’ll see that members of the Saudi government directly supported terror. Members of the Saudi government are currently encouraging Saudi suicide bombers to go into Iraq.

I repeat: Mary, I don’t dispute that individuals in Saudi Arabia are probably funding terrorism. In fact, there are probably individuals in government and elsewhere in society in every Muslim country in the world who are giving money and other aid to terrorists – individual Muslim business leaders, Muslim politicians, Muslim government officials and Muslim clerics all over the Muslim world are probably contributing, in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. In fact, Muslim “charities” in Europe and the US are probably also doing their part to contribute to the terrorists in the world wide religious war currently playing on the world stage. But your assertion was that the Saudis and the Sudanese were culpable specifically for 9/11 and I see nothing in the linked articles to support it.

I wrote earlier: Yes, I agree with Rumsfeld that the larger world-wide religious war, above and beyond Iraq and Afghanistan, may take decades.

Mary’s reply: The way we’re fighting it, yes, it will. It can take forever to get somewhere if you stand in place, shooting yourself in the foot.

So your answer is to declare war on all Muslim states? Really? Or do I have your strategy wrong? Maybe you could give us a condensed version of what you think the US should do about terrorism because I think I may be interpreting your statements incorrectly in regards to a strategy against terrorism.

I wrote earlier: Cuba, Iran, Sudan and North Korea may take awhile to win over diplomatically or subdue militarily.

Mary’s reply: What do Cuba and North Korea have to do with the fight against Islamist terrorism? This is the problem with this ‘war against terrorism’. Are we fighting the commies or the fascists? If we’d tried to fight both at the same time back in the early ’40’s, we would probably have lost both wars.

Terror-sponsoring states are the problem, not religion.

More from Mary: And why is Cuba still an enemy? They’re a toothless regime.

Tell it to the political prisoners jailed and executed by Castro. Read the State Department’s blurb on Cuba, an excerpt from which I’ll quote: “The Government of Cuba maintains close relationships with other state sponsors of terrorism such as Iran and North Korea, and has provided safe haven to members of ETA, FARC, and the ELN.” Castro will do anything he can to screw the US.

I wrote earlier: The US has recently deposed 2 belligerent governments. And how many governments did Carter’s administration depose?

Mary’s reply: According to some accounts, Carter’s administration deposed the Shah.

Only in the sense that Carter’s passive, apologetic foreign policy played into the mullahs’ hands. And the Shah was friendly toward the West, not belligerent, so your example does not pertain to my question – but we both know the real answer – Carter did nothing in retaliation and by doing nothing encouraged Iran to do more mischief.

Mary wades in: Our actions are similar to Carter’s because our government is willing to tolerate oppressive Islamist governments in order to achieve their goals.

Mary, the problem is not Islamic regimes. The problem is Islamic regimes that attempt to wage war against the US and its allies by using terrorists as their proxy military. As far as I’m concern anyone has the right to adhere to any religion they want, as long as they don’t try to use the religion as an excuse to perform murder.

Mary asserts: We allied with the Wahhabis to depose the Soviets. We invaded Iraq, in part, in order to help our Wahhabi ‘allies.’ Since these alliances are currently bleeding our economy, this time the Islamists are helping the Reds defeat us.

In WW2, the US allied with the Soviets to defeat Hitler. Much later the US assisted the Afghans against the Soviets. In diplomatic terms it’s known as ‘shifting alliances.’ We invaded Iraq for a lot of reasons but none of them had anything to do with “Wahhabi allies.” You do understand, don’t you Mary, that if the US has an alliance with a country that that alliance is not necessarily forever? That a country may not be an ally in one era but may become an ally later?

I wrote earlier: I’m aware that there are monetary exchange and trade deficit points of contention between the US and China, but that is hardly reason to believe as you originally asserted that China is causing US politicians very much anxiety.

Mary’s reply: US politicians are more interested in maintaining their power and status than in protecting Americans. That’s what their actions indicate. China’s growing economy doesn’t threaten me all that much, nor does it threaten most people, but it does threaten politicians.

I’ve seen a growing realization among US politicians that China is an economic opponent. Nothing new in economic opponents. There’s always an economic competitor on hand. Remember when the media had a feeding frenzy because Japan was going to ‘own’ America? But I really don’t think China’s economic shenanigans are causing a lot of anxiety in DC. Economic shenanigans are too commonplace to cause anxiety.

Mary asserts: They’re still at war with Cuba, because Cuba is a commie state. Cuba doesn’t threaten the lives of American citizens, but they don’t respect the US government. Therefore, they’re an enemy.

Cuba is a repressive state run by a dictator that used murder and pretended to want democracy to achieve his position. Cuba was the beginning of the Communist movement in Latin America and Castro has never given up trying to export Communism. As long as Castro is in power Cuba is a threat.

Mary asserts: Saudi Arabia directly threatens the lives of American citizens, but they pretend to respect the US government. They’re our “good friends”.

I repeat: I don’t trust the Saudis but then I’m sure Roosevelt didn’t trust Stalin, either; strategic alliances are not based on trust but on mutual interests and power.

Mary says: Politicians don’t see things the way we do.

You can say that again.

If they are all culpable as you say, then there should have been no target preference. One country owuld have been as good as another. But that doesn’t seem to be what you are arguing however.

If you read Robert Baer’s Sleeping with the Devil or Robert Baer’s Hatred’s Kingdom you’ll see that members of the Saudi government directly supported terror. Members of the Saudi government are currently encouraging Saudi suicide bombers to go into Iraq.

The question remains however, why Mary believes Iraq and Afghanistan were the WRONG first targets. We’re not talking about if Saudi Arabia did or did not support terrorism, we’re talking about why Saudi Arabia in Mary’s view, is a superior first target than Iraq or Afghanistan.

According to some accounts, Carter’s administration deposed the Shah.

Since the Shah was a US ally and progressive, and presumably Saddam was neither progressive nor an ally, there’s really no comparison between what Bush did and what Carter did.

Our actions are similar to Carter’s because our government is willing to tolerate oppressive Islamist governments in order to achieve their goals.

Carter did a bit more than “tolerate” oppressive regimes, he installed one in Iran.

We invaded Iraq, in part, in order to help our Wahhabi ‘allies.’

Again, Mary’s ignoring the fact that Kuwaitt was helped more by Iraq invasion than Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia and the Sudan are as culpable as the Taliban. So was the UAE. So was Iran.

If you read Robert Baer’s Sleeping with the Devil or Robert Baer’s Hatred’s Kingdom you’ll see that members of the Saudi government directly supported terror. Members of the Saudi government are currently encouraging Saudi suicide bombers to go into Iraq.

Yes, I agree with Rumsfeld that the larger world-wide religious war, above and beyond Iraq and Afghanistan, may take decades.

The way we’re fighting it, yes, it will. It can take forever to get somewhere if you stand in place, shooting yourself in the foot.

Cuba, Iran, Sudan and North Korea may take awhile to win over diplomatically or subdue militarily.

What do Cuba and North Korea have to do with the fight against Islamist terrorism? This is the problem with this ‘war against terrorism’. Are we fighting the commies or the fascists? If we’d tried to fight both at the same time back in the early ’40’s, we would probably have lost both wars.

And why is Cuba still an enemy? They’re a toothless regime.

The US has recently deposed 2 belligerent governments. And how many governments did Carter’s administration depose?

According to some accounts, Carter’s administration deposed the Shah.

Our actions are similar to Carter’s because our government is willing to tolerate oppressive Islamist governments in order to achieve their goals.

We allied with the Wahhabis to depose the Soviets. We invaded Iraq, in part, in order to help our Wahhabi ‘allies.’ Since these alliances are currently bleeding our economy, this time the Islamists are helping the Reds defeat us.

I’m aware that there are monetary exchange and trade deficit points of contention between the US and China, but that is hardly reason to believe as you originally asserted that China is causing US politicians very much anxiety.

US politicians are more interested in maintaining their power and status than in protecting Americans. That’s what their actions indicate. China’s growing economy doesn’t threaten me all that much, nor does it threaten most people, but it does threaten politicians.

They’re still at war with Cuba, because Cuba is a commie state. Cuba doesn’t threaten the lives of American citizens, but they don’t respect the US government. Therefore, they’re an enemy.

Saudi Arabia directly threatens the lives of American citizens, but they pretend to respect the US government. They’re our “good friends”.

Politicians don’t see things the way we do.

My response: I’m sorry, but no. I don’t believe the Sudan or Saudi Arabia were culpable for 9/11, except perhaps very, very indirectly. Before I swallow an assertion of this type I’m going to have to know just why Mary thinks Saudi Arabia and the Sudan were culpable.

Mary’s reply: Do you have time to do a few hours of reading?[links to articles]

Mary, I don’t dispute that individuals in Saudi Arabia are probably funding terrorism. And I certainly don’t trust the Saudis. The situation in Saudi Arabia with terror-funding is like the US had with IRA funding – not officially sanctioned but nothing much done to stop it, either(BTW, I concede the Brits have every right to be miffed at US hypocrisy on the IRA issue). And Sudan is definitely a terror-sponsoring state. But your assertion was that the Saudis and the Sudanese were culpable specifically for 9/11 and I see nothing in the linked articles to support it. BTW, if you believe Sudan and Saudi Arabia are the “worst terror supporting states’” you haven’t been paying attention. The country that sponsors the most terror is Iran.

On the “decades” assertion, I think it rather obvious from my response(“The US deposed Saddam only 3 years ago.”) that I was referring only to Iraq and thought you were referring only to the Iraq war. Yes, I agree with Rumsfeld that the larger world-wide religious war, above and beyond Iraq and Afghanistan, may take decades.

Why should a fight against Grenada-strength opponents take decades? It makes no sense at all.

In fairness, I don’t believe all the countries on the State Departments list of terror-sponsoring states are as militarily weak as Grenada was. Cuba, Iran, Sudan and North Korea may take awhile to win over diplomatically or subdue militarily. Three are off the list(Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan) but it has taken several years of military actions to get them off the list. Four more could easily take decades, don’t you think?

It’s militarily unfeasible to mount a military action against Iran because we’re tied up in Iraq, following the Carter doctrine.

No, actually the US could mount a devastating military action against Iran from afar using just one or two US nuclear submarines. After such a strike Iran would be reduced to the Stone Age. It’s political opposition here at home that prevents such an action, not any lack of military resources.

No, we allowed Islamist governments to take over. Just like Carter.

The US has recently deposed 2 belligerent governments. And how many governments did Carter’s administration depose? Just like Carter? Mary, you really do need to watch the exaggerations. Were you wanting the US to totally dictate the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq? Puppet governments? Oh how the anti-war crowd would scream if that were the case! Bush would be impeached by now!

I’m aware that there are monetary exchange and trade deficit points of contention between the US and China, but that is hardly reason to believe as you originally asserted that China is causing US politicians very much anxiety. This type of bloodless economic conflict happens too often with too many countries to cause anxiety.

Defunding Hamas is not drying up terroist funds. Invading terroist sponsoring nations like Iraq and Afghanistan, is not going after terroists where they live.

You want some complete Total War thing, which is not the same thing as saying Bush hasn’t done these things. You want him to do more of these things, you want him to committ the United States to Total War through obliteration. Don’t call that doing Bush’s strategy for him. That’s an entirely different strategy.

As I said, actions speak louder than words.

But you don’t believe what you say. Since you’re talking about Al Gore doing what you think he would have done, but since he wasn’t President he didn’t do what you think he would have done, now did he?

Actions of hypothetical characters aren’t real actions. And Afghanistan and Iraq are real actions, regardless of the hypothetical character actions you said would have happened.

As I said, actions speak louder than words. Bush says that we’re fighting Islamism and the states that support and aid terrorism. He said:

We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism.

But he didn’t do that. Instead, he allies with those states and allows them to continue to fund terrorism. If Al Gore had been in office he would have done the same thing, because allying with terror-supporting nations has been our policy for years. We have no alternative plan.

If the reason you believe that our government is beholden to China is because of economic reasons, then why isn’t China beholden to the US given our superior army, navy, and air force?

In Cheney’s own words, he was following the Cater doctrine.

Which would make Cheney different from Carter, in that Cheney actually follows Carter’s doctrine.

In Cheney’s own words, democracy and terrorism were not relevant in his decision.

Cheney doesn’t have any words. Because Cheney isn’t here, and he didn’t say he supported what you said he supported. So it is not as if Cheney is the authoritative God people like me should bow down to cause you say he says what you think is right. Being supported by Cheney is not an indication of either Godhood or Correctness. Besides, Cheney doesn’t decide American policy, that would be his boss, Bush. The one that actually got elected.

Conversely, can you prove that we are fighting Islamism or terrorism?

Can you prove Cheney doesn’t take into account democracies or terrorism in his decision? I know, rhetorical question. Let’s be clear here. Nobody’s going to prove anything to you Mary, if you won’t believe it. Convincing or persuading you that America’s strategic goal is to spread democracy in the Middle East to replace dictatorships, is an entirely separate matter. I do know that it wasn’t solely the forces of dictatorships that blew up US Marines with IEDs, you know. So, presumably, we are fighting Islamism and terrorism because Islamism and terrorism are fighting us. That’s not even a logic chain, that’s a double take.

How many Islamist regimes have we overthrown?

1

How many have we allowed to take over?

-1 Kuwaitt’s voted in women’s voting rights. A stronger argument can be made that we went into iraq twice to protect Kuwaitt… not Saudi Arabia.

If you’re arguing that Carter did this or that, or the anti-Soviet Polish guy did this or that, and this means “we”, meaning whomever you are talking about at any specific time, are not fighting Islamism and terrorism then you have a problem. It’s called common sense. Obviously, if you mean “we” to include Carter as well as Bush and everyone else, “we” is not “we” but “everyone”. Everyone, does not do the same thing all the time. Carter is not we. If Carter was we, then we would not be fighting Islamism because Carter loves Islamicfascism. We, meaning me and people who agree with me, are fighting Islamic fascism instead of supporting dictators, because presumably “we”, are the ones fighting Islamic fascism instead of supporting dictators.

How many Chinese embassies have we bombed?

1

Is there like a point to your questions, or what?

If we really are fighting a war against terrorism, I can’t imagine a less efficient way of doing it.

Conclusions. After some back and forth about why mary believes America is not fighting against terror, I still don’t know much more than I started out with. It’s obvious what Mary believes, about Saudi Arabia, Cheney, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, etc. But if you remember, I asked why Mary believed in those things. That’s a different question, and I still don’t know the answer to be honest. But that’s okay.

Maybe I need to elaborate on what I’m seeking here. I’m not seeking to convince you, Mary, that the sun is black or that the lunar eclipse is blue, to use hyperbole. To the extent that I am curious, I am only curious as to what your justifications are for your own personal beliefs. This means what exactly? It means I’m asking for your logical premises, I am not asking for any corrolaries, evidence, facts, cites, events, or anything else.

Let’s take Mary’s reasoning about Saudi Arabia. The same applies to Kuwaitt, so why doesn’t Mary believe it is Kuwaitt we are protecting, not Saudi Arabia?

Let’s another one of your reasons, Mary. Dick Cheney. Dick Cheney didn’t mention democracy… therefore Mary believes democracy did not factor in his decision makings. Problem is, why does Dick Cheney’s decisions matter compared to Bush’s?

Do you have time to do a few hours of reading?

Road block 1. Look, when people ask the question of why, it doesn’t take long to answer once you get the answer. It does take awhile to figure out the answer. Which means, there are probably only 1 or 2 logical premises at the root of a person’s beliefs. Everything else, concerns the how, the whats, and the when.

No, we allowed Islamist governments to take over. Just like Carter.

So I guess it goes something like this. We are using Carter’s pro-Islamic strategy because we are just like Carter.

Are you talking about Karzai, the leader of the sharia-led Islamic Republic of Afghanistan?

I am talking about Karzai. Why? Because that was the name I used. I don’t see a problem here, because when I say list your justifications about x and karzai being the leader of a fundementalist government, presumably I am asking about Karzai. Just to be clear, of course.

Are you talking about Karzai, the leader of the sharia-led Islamic Republic of Afghanistan? Or are you talking about the Islamist warlords who helped us fight the Islamist Taliban?

I’m sorry, but no. I don’t believe the Sudan or Saudi Arabia were culpable for 9/11, except perhaps very, very indirectly. Before I swallow an assertion of this type I’m going to have to know just why Mary thinks Saudi Arabia and the Sudan were culpable.

Do you have time to do a few hours of reading?

A few links (leading to many more links)

Saudi Arabia still funding terrorism

Hate is a WMD

Terrorism isn’t a desperate act fueled by revenge

The Grand Strategy of the Headless Chicken

Ambassador Turki

Fahd Death lifts crude

Proof that Sudanese government officials were as involved with al Qaeda as the Taliban:

from the US State Department:

Does Sudan sponsor terrorism?

Yes. The country has been on the State Department’s list of states that sponsor terrorism since 1993, and the U.N. Security Council imposed sanctions on Sudanfrom 1996 to 2001 because of its involvement with terrorism. The Islamist Arab government that controls most of the country has provided sanctuary to terrorists, including Osama bin Laden, and has let terrorist groups plan and carry out operations from Sudan.

.. State Department officials stress major areas of concern still remain. In October 2004, theUnited States designated the Khartoum-based NGO Islamic African Relief Agency as a supporter of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

Has Sudan harbored al-Qaeda or other terrorist groups?

Yes. The country has given shelter to Islamist and Middle Eastern terrorist groups, including al-Qaeda, which used Sudanas its main operational and training base from 1991 to 1996. International investigators suspected that at one point it had become a financial hub for the terror network since September 11; al-Qaeda operatives have reportedly spirited large amounts of gold into Sudan.

[that gold came from Iran]

One of the Saudi government officials involved with al Qaeda is currently our Ambassador from Saudi Arabia, Prince Turki.

Saudi officials were named when Sept. 11 families attempted to sue them. All were aquitted due to diplomatic immunity, not because they were innocent.

Mary descends into hyperbole with “decades.” The US deposed Saddam only 3 years ago.

Actually, it’s Rumsfeld who is descending into hyperbole. The ‘decades’ estimate is from his ‘long war’ speech:

The United States is engaged in what could be a generational conflict akin to the Cold War, the kind of struggle that might last decades as allies work to root out terrorists across the globe and battle extremists who want to rule the world, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said yesterday.

Rumsfeld, who laid out broad strategies for what the military and the Bush administration are now calling the “long war,” likened al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden to Adolf Hitler and Vladimir Lenin while urging Americans not to give in on the battle of wills that could stretch for years. He said there is a tendency to underestimate the threats that terrorists pose to global security, and said liberty is at stake.

Osama may be as nasty as Lenin and Hitler, but miltarily, he and his supporters are comparable to Grenada. As Mark Steyn said, the Arab armies combined make Belgium look butch. Proof of their weakness - the Six Day War. Why should a fight against Grenada-strength opponents take decades? It makes no sense at all.

Why not Iran? Because, as we are finding out today, it is politically unfeasible to mount a military action against Iran. I wish it were not.

It’s militarily unfeasable to mount a military action against Iran because we’re tied up in Iraq, following the Carter doctrine.

The US hasn’t “installed” governments in Afghanistan or Iraq.

No, we allowed Islamist governments to take over. Just like Carter.

The US is cozying up to Russia and China in hopes they can intimidate the terrorists

We may be cozying up to them because they kind of own us, but I don’t think the members of our government are happy about that.

Actually, it is more like after America has invested billions in the Chinese economy. Since America is buying stuff from China, not the other way around, it isn’t Chinese dollars being invested in our economy but American trade dollars being invested in Chinese manufacturing.

No. China has invested billion in US treasury bonds in an effort to keep the dollar from sinking. From ‘The Economist’:

Not only has China’s disinflationary impact caused low short-term interest rates, but China is also partly responsible for the low level of long-term bond yields. To keep its exchange rate pegged to the dollar, China was the biggest buyer of American Treasury bonds over the past year. In the first six months of 2005, its foreign-exchange reserves increased by more than $100 billion, to $711 billion, of which about three-quarters are in dollars. This has also kept capital costs artificially low.
Who calls the shots?

For many decades, global monetary policy has been set in Washington. When the Fed raised interest rates, global monetary conditions would tighten. Today, however, thanks in part to China’s purchases of T-bonds, low long-term bond yields have offset the rise in American short-term interest rates over the past year. The yield on ten-year bonds is currently lower than before the Fed started to lift interest rates in June 2004. America’s sovereignty over its monetary policy has therefore been eroded, with a given rise in short-term rates producing much less monetary tightening than in the past. To that extent, global monetary policy is increasingly being set in Beijing as well as in Washington

China’s rising status as an economic superpower (with nukes!) directly threatens the status of our government, and they don’t like it. Haven’t you read any of the hundreds of articles about the Chinese century?

Then we have Cheney prattling about the the “Soviet bear”

In 2002, Cheney explained why we invaded Iraq. It had nothing to do with terrorism. We went in to protect the Sauds.

.. in August, 2002, seven months before the war started, Cheney warned that Saddam would be able to seize control of the world’s economic lifeline if he acquired weapons of mass destruction: “Armed with an arsenal of these weapons of terror, and seated atop ten per cent of the world’s oil reserves, Saddam Hussein could then be expected to seek domination of the entire Middle East, take control of a great portion of the world’s energy supplies, directly threaten America’s friends throughout the region, and subject the United States or any other nation to nuclear blackmail.”

In Cheney’s own words, he was following the Cater doctrine.

In Cheney’s own words, democracy and terrorism were not relevant in his decision.

Conversely, can you prove that we are fighting Islamism or terrorism? How many Islamist regimes have we overthrown? How many have we allowed to take over?

How many times have we criticized or directly threatened Islamist regimes? How many times have we directly threatened the red menace? How many Chinese embassies have we bombed? How many Islamist-state embassies have we bombed?

Are there any circumstances under which we have definitely promised to go to war with an Islamist nation? How about China?

If we really are fighting a war against terrorism, I can’t imagine a less efficient way of doing it.

If China attacked the U.S. the world economy would collapse, millions would starve, an unfathomable dark age would ensue, yet this might be the surprise attack we weren’t counting on. In a way, the American Left is like the Muslim squatters of Europe, singular drops of innocent water, a flashflood waiting for an earthquake.

There is that theory that Osama put so many Saudis because he wanted the US to attack Saudi Arabia, trash mecca and medina, inciting an Islamic backlash and increasing Osama support. Bush didn’t seem to fall for it.

It doesn’t really matter what I, or we, or Bush wanted to invade Iraq for. Those reasons are individual based and none of them are automatically going to be Mary’s regardless of whether Mary hears them or not.

We could say, I guess, that Iraq was the low hanging fruit, the weak spot, of Arabia. With a guaranteed pro-American and militaristic faction called the Kurds in the north, and one of the few Arab nations that has a majority Shia population, which would give us allies against the Sunni and Sufi based Al Qaeda. This would set up a roadblock for both Saudi Arabia, Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, and Syria’s Baathists.

The real question is, why Mary thought Iraq was not the better target.

His actions and his support of Brzezinski indicate that he was anti-Soviet, for his own reasons. Actions speak louder than words.

The only reason why you believe that is because of the Taheri article. You’re just going to buy whatever Taheri says is the case?

- If we’re fighting Islamism, why have we installed an Islamist government in Afghanistan? Why are we planning to install an Islamist government in Iraq?

People see Bush and they see a fundamentalist Christian theocracy. They have about as much justification believing that as you do believing that Karzai is an Islamist fundamentalist leader of a theocratic government.

Go ahead, list your justifications for why you’re right, and Karzai is a fundamentalist Islamic leader.

- Islamist terror-supporting states are, for the most part, economically and strategically vulnerable, militarily weak and intellectually backwards. Why should a war against these weak states take decades?

Cleans wars are expensive, they also take longer. Asymmetrical warfare is also very long. The main reason why it should take decades is because very short wars and immediate victories don’t really matter. The war is not going to end just cause you have a victory parade after Saddam is gone.

The shorter the war you want us to make, the more casualties we will take in the long term and the less success we will have crushing the guerrilas and terroists. You think the USA is omnipotent and can just wave a wand, and everyone’s heads will fall off? Be realistic. We could do that, but that would be extermination, not war.

Do we really believe that the Chinese are planning to attack us after they’ve invested billions in our economy?

Actually, it is more like after America has invested billions in the Chinese economy. Since America is buying stuff from China, not the other way around, it isn’t Chinese dollars being invested in our economy but American trade dollars being invested in Chinese manufacturing.

So, the politicians market their realpolitik games as a war against terrorism.

Your belief that the United States leadership in charge of military and strategic goals, is focusing on real politek as the strategic foundation is laid out in this manner. With some pro and anti justifications.

The United States refuses to support the status quo, instead favoring self-autonomy in Iraq and Afghanistan. You would have us believe the US focuses on realpolitek, inspite of the sacrifices in blood and treasure liberating the Iraqis and Afghanistanis, because of Amir Taheri and some anti-Soviet strategist.

That’s not a favorable balance for belief. Realpolitek is Carter getting rid of the Shah cause he prefered someone else. People power, Carter has always favored. Real politek is not liberating two countries in the Middle East. It makes no sense for people who support dictators to want to get rid of them, and spend a huge amount of cash and lives to do it.

Let me outline it for doug.

Do you have any evidence that Carter wanted the Shah overthrown? If Iran had been invaded by the Soviet Union, Carter would clearly have used military force - he said so explicitly in the Carter Doctrine. But he wasn’t willing to do so to suppress a popular revolution.

First of all, any evidence that Carter wanted the Shah overthrown is not believed. Ex Post Facto. One defense. Provide the evidence, and he shall disbelieve it. Fair, I suppose.

Second defense used by doug. Carter does things because Carter says he will do them. No, that can’t be assumed. Politicians say a lot of things, like they will rescue the hostages or not negotiate with terroists. They fail to do them anyways.

First it was, Carter let the Shah get overthrown because the revolution was a Leftist popular one, and Carter wasn’t willing to interfere. Then it was Zbigniew Brzezinski’s strategy that made Carter support the overthrowing of the Shah in favor of Muj forces. Which one should we believe? I suggest neither.

On the one hand, we have the facts and cites and evidence about Carter’s actions while president.

Ja, like the fact that Carter said he’d use military force in his Carter Doctrine therefore he obviouslly would have done it! Carter didn’t use military force to repel Soviets, that’s not a fact, a cite, or an evidence. Except the evidence that it didn’t occur. That’s not a fact, that’s called circular logic to believe Carter used military force to support the Shah cause he said he would if the Soviets invaded. Look, he didn’t, it didn’t happen, and nobody’s going to believe it would have happened based upon the “evidence” that he said he would have done it.

Brzezinski also became a leading critic of the Bush administration’s “war on terror.” Some painted him as a neoconservative because of his links to Paul Wolfowitz and his 1997 book The Grand Chessboard, which frankly discussed U.S. empire. He wrote The Choice in 2004 which expanded upon The Grand Chessboard but sharply criticized the Bush administration’s foreign policy.

In this case, presumably Mary is arguing that Bush is doing Brzezinsky’s strategy and Brzezinsky is disagreeing with his own strategy… There’s too many inconsistencies and senseless statements that don’t jibe.

On the other hand, we have Ymar’s syllogism that Carter was a leftist and no leftist would fight communism. Which should we believe provides the better description of the real world in which we live?

Obviously Doug believed my syllogism because Doug believed that Carter did not move against the Revolution against the Shah, cause it was a popular (read Leftist) one. I suppose asking people to disbelieve things that Doug already believes in, makes a lot of sense to some people, but I hope this kind of sloppy reasoning isn’t indemic.

I really don’t think it’s wise to believe that Carter was anti-Soviet just cause one of his advisors came from Poland and was quite anti-Soviet. That’s about as believable as saying we should believe that Carter would have used military force to support the Shah, cause that was what was in Carter Doctrine (and that sentence was written by Zbigniew Brzezinski too).

Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force. (full speech)

This, the key sentence of the Carter Doctrine, was written by Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s National Security Adviser. Brzezinski modeled the wording of the Carter Doctrine on the Truman Doctrine, and insisted that the sentence be included in the speech “to make it very clear that the Soviets should stay away from the Persian Gulf.”

It seems more and more, like whatever carter would do against the Soviets came directly from Brzezinski. Ain’t that convenient.

Besides, Carter lied. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, Carter didn’t use military force against the Soviets. Carter sold some weapons, and that was about it, to the muj.

It’s really sloppy argumentation and methodology on doug’s part. The cites he is refering to is actually not quotes, but just anecdotes he recalls directly from memory. That would be valid if he is arguing from a common sense perspective, but that’s not why Doug says he is right. Doug says he is right cause he has the evidence and the cites on his side. Recollections of dim memories of what happened 2 decades ago is neither evidence nor a cite, just to be clear.

you wouldn’t accept that kind of “evidence” in an MSM piece, and you shouldn’t accept it here just because you like the conclusions the article draws!

Let me outline the logic so that people don’t get confused.

While I wouldn’t believe a MSM story about Marine atrocities cause their anonymous sources said it happened, I would believe a reasoned and logical conclusion that is both consistent in the framework of reality and does not bear any logical flaws. What’s the difference? The difference is believing something is true cause somebody’s source said it was true, and believing something is true because the logic and reasoning is persuasive. Nyo’s link has both a persuasive and logical argument. Your argument, Doug, is that because Jimmy Carter didn’t use military force to support the Shah as a US ally, we should believe that based upon Jimmy Carter’s actions that he was anti-Soviet.

No, that doesn’t work.

See this is the problem with people who treat debates based upon whose source they believe in. That’s just the logical fallacy of believing things based upon authority. They don’t use logic, they don’t scan their reasoning, and thus we end up with this junk in their argumentation.

Beyond its factual problems, the observant reader will note that it is entirely based on third-hand reporting by anonymous sources

Keep talking about the “source” and you might even qualify for argumentum ad nauseam as well as Argumentum ad verecundiam.

We already know that Doug doesn’t believe in Nyo’s sources. But then again, Nyo didn’t say Nyo believes X cause of the sources. And neither did I, I said I am inclined to believe Nyo’s first link’s analysis because it makes sense. What part of it “makes sense” do people not get?. I call this the lawyer version of debating. Using evidence only and never basic reasoning.

Hmmm (2 seconds later)

ineffectual and plainly opposed are pretty much synonymous in the business of foreign policy ESPECIALLY when you are dealing with a barbaric Islamist mindset.

- If we’re fighting terrorism, why did we choose to attack Iraq, the nation that had the least amount of involvement in the 9/11 attacks? Why didn’t we attack Iran then?

If your wanting to subdue some more dangerous despots after you’ve just deposed a dangerous regime in Afghanistan you’ve got to start somewhere and for 13 years Saddam had been violation his terms of surrender after his foiled invasion of Kuwait. Saddam was shooting at US aircraft, kicking UN inspectors out of Iraq, refusing to account for his WMD arsenal, had tried to assassinate an American ex-President, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum. He was a good start.

Why not Iran? Because, as we are finding out today, it is politically unfeasible to mount a military action against Iran. I wish it were not.

- If we’re fighting terrorism, why are we allied with the worst terror supporting states? Saudi Arabia and the Sudan were about as culpable as the Taliban were in the 9/11 attacks.

I’m sorry, but no. I don’t believe the Sudan or Saudi Arabia were culpable for 9/11, except perhaps very, very indirectly. Before I swallow an assertion of this type I’m going to have to know just why Mary thinks Saudi Arabia and the Sudan were culpable.

- If we’re fighting Islamism, why have we installed an Islamist government in Afghanistan? Why are we planning to install an Islamist government in Iraq?

The US hasn’t “installed” governments in Afghanistan or Iraq. Those countries are forming their own governments, having their own elections, etc. The fact that some aspects of the governments that these countries are forming are distasteful to Western democratic sensibilities only serves to underscore the relative independence of the political process in both countries. Other than specifying an elective process and forbidding some figures from former regimes from taking part I don’t think the US has been particularly dictatorial in the post-war government building.

- Islamist terror-supporting states are, for the most part, economically and strategically vulnerable, militarily weak and intellectually backwards. Why should a war against these weak states take decades? Why should a war against such pathetic enemies be called the ‘long war’?

Mary descends into hyperbole with “decades.” The US deposed Saddam only 3 years ago.

There is no war against terrorism. We’re cozying up to Islamists who want to kill us in the hopes that we can use them to intimidate the Chinese and the ’soviets’. We’re willing to go to war to save Taiwan but we look the other way as Islamists destabilize governments around the world. Do we really believe that the Chinese are planning to attack us after they’ve invested billions in our economy?

I think Mary has it backwards. The US is cozying up to Russia and China in hopes they can intimidate the terrorists. China planning to attack? I certainly don’t think anyone in the administration or Congress thinks China is planning to attack the US. I do agree that the US has in the past looked the other way in regards to terrorists. In fact this passivity may have much to do with the current terrorism boom.

Both parties, Republicans and Democrats, are more threatened by challenges to their power than by terrorism. A powerful China threatens their status, and that frightens them more than 9/11 ever did. They’re more interested in playing expensive realpolitik games than in fighting terrorism.

I don’t think either party feels much intimidated by China’s ability to threaten their status. I will agree that the Democratic Party is lackadaisical in respect to terrorism. Their main concern seems to be to somehow bring Bush down.

On the one hand, we have the facts and cites and evidence about Carter’s actions while president. On the other hand, we have Ymar’s syllogism that Carter was a leftist and no leftist would fight communism. Which should we believe provides the better description of the real world in which we live?

I would recommend you read the wiki entries for Carter Doctrine and Zbigniew Brzezinski. Carter’s foreign policy was ineffective, but he was plainly opposed to Soviet expansionism.

I would also like to point out that nyomythus’s first link is bunk. It asserts that Carter planned the hostage takeover with Iranian Prime Minister Mehdi Bazargan to help his domestic political fortunes. In fact, Bazargan’s government fell as a result of the hostage seizure, and it was a major factor in Carter’s loss to Reagan in 1980. Beyond its factual problems, the observant reader will note that it is entirely based on third-hand reporting by anonymous sources - you wouldn’t accept that kind of “evidence” in an MSM piece, and you shouldn’t accept it here just because you like the conclusions the article draws!

I don’t know if Carter was anti-communist, but he was anti-Soviet. Brzezinski was also anti-soviet.

Brzezinski is still fighting imaginary Soviets and we’re still listening to the lunatic.

Carter may have been fighting the Soviets to make a buck or to shore up the military industrial complex. Whatever. His actions and his support of Brzezinski indicate that he was anti-Soviet, for his own reasons. Actions speak louder than words.

The problem is, we’re still following his policies, allying with Islamists to fight Brzezinski’s shadowy red menace. The current war is being sold to us as a war against terrorism because that’s the only war that Americans will support, but it’s not.

- If we’re fighting terrorism, why did we choose to attack Iraq, the nation that had the least amount of involvement in the 9/11 attacks? Why didn’t we attack Iran then?

- If we’re fighting terrorism, why are we allied with the worst terror supporting states? Saudi Arabia and the Sudan were about as culpable as the Taliban were in the 9/11 attacks.

- If we’re fighting Islamism, why have we installed an Islamist government in Afghanistan? Why are we planning to install an Islamist government in Iraq?

- Islamist terror-supporting states are, for the most part, economically and strategically vulnerable, militarily weak and intellectually backwards. Why should a war against these weak states take decades? Why should a war against such pathetic enemies be called the ‘long war’?

There is no war against terrorism. We’re cozying up to Islamists who want to kill us in the hopes that we can use them to intimidate the Chinese and the ’soviets’. We’re willing to go to war to save Taiwan but we look the other way as Islamists destabilize governments around the world. Do we really believe that the Chinese are planning to attack us after they’ve invested billions in our economy?

Both parties, Republicans and Democrats, are more threatened by chanllenges to their power than by terrorism. A powerful China threatens their status, and that frightens them more than 9/11 ever did. They’re more interested in playing expensive realpolitik games than in fighting terrorism.

Most Americans care about terrorism because it threatens their lives. So, the politicians market their realpolitik games as a war against terrorism. But their actions indicate that they have no real plans to fight terror.

My only comment is that a lot of these things can be tweaked based upon what else you want to do. For example, any naval blockade can be split between either after China vetoes or before China vetoes. Depending upon the time chosen, the results and leverage is different.