“Here is but one. There are many more, official and not. Not too many in your rightwing bubbleworld I guess.”

LOL, there’s no bubble here, only the facts. And the fact is much of this can be explained by the simple fact that there’s an insurgency going on by your friends in Al-Qaida and Co. It’s kinda hard to rebuild a country when aid workers are being killed, kidnapped, and beheaded on Snuff…Al-Jazeera TV. I guess you missed that point in your lefty blogs, or in my last point but I’ll be happy to point it out again. And again. And again. lol. Hey…still waiting for your proof.

“It is telling that you would blithely discard a report from the COE as a “whacko publication”. Who should we refer to for data then smartboy?”

I believe it was a different ‘publication’ I was dissing. Oh yeah, that Zmag thing you were peddling. LOL, what a joke. Just another of your wacko lefty sites inventing new atrocities committed by big bad Americans. I love how your link quotes people claiming American snipers were shooting at them. It offers no context like perhaps they were shooting at the Americans first? LOL. And no attempts were made by the writers, it seems, to gain the American point of view. What are they too lazy to do some homework? lol

Oh but maybe you ought to read some more about the liberation of Naples by the Allies in WWII when you’re not immersed in hate-America fiction. Not a smooth operation there either and they had a huge army at their disposal without the threat of insurgent attacks to deal with. Just kleptomaniacal mafioso. Sorta like your friend Saddam with the UNICEF supplies. lol

As for reliable sources, try reading mine. Our side doesn’t have a history of inventing atrocities or exaggerating the negative (CBS memogate anyone?). They may accentuate the positive, but that’s not the same as lying now is it? Don’t be scared. lol.

“Malkin and her band of rabid racist cheerleaders for death?”

Malkin racist? Lol that’s the most asinine thing you’ve said yet. Her hate mail is filled with racist rants from your troll brethren. The only death cheerleaders comes from your camp when they slay Iraqi journalists who’s tortured, (the real kind, not the imagined kind at Club Gitmo) stripped, and ultimately killed in public by having her throat slit. Nice going…

Malkin and the conservative blogosphere are actually performing a service by highlighting the hateful, insane, racist behavior of the left in supporting and promoting terrorism worldwide.

“BTW the Iraqi Baathists and the Syrian Baathists haven’t been pals for 40 odd years. You need to read up before pontificating.”

Oh sure, they’ve only belonged to the same idealogy, based on your Nazi -Socialist buddies, for the last 40 years but that means nothing of course. lol. Assad and Saddam may not have been pals but neither is Bush and Chirac but they manage to work together occassionally.

“There are hundreds of thousands of Iraqi refugees in Syria alone.”

Where was the token outrage from you folks when millions were refugees under Saddam? hmmm? And many are probably former Baathists looking for a new home. Good riddance. Hardly a sympathetic groups of victims are they?

“If you’d rather let them starve because they might one day oppose US occupation, then I suggest that that is reason enough for them to hate you and your kind with a passion.”

Who said anything about starving? You kookamungas really do exaggerate. Where’s the proof that the US is behind a starvation policy. Hmmm?

“It takes a particularly twisted mind to wish to punish refugees on the basis of what a few may do in the future. You’re a sick little boy.”

Nah, that’s something you folks on the left specialize in, what with your ‘re-education camps’ and boat people. We don’t try to punish anybody but the guilty. The Sunnis are punishing themselves by supporting a terrorist insurgency that’s sinking they’re only hopes of retaining some of their old power. Anyhow who’s sick here? We who seek democracy and a stable ally in the Arab world or appeasers like you who support tyrants who gas their own people? Hmmm?

The left embraces every known terrorist and ignores genuine moves towards freedom and prosperity. Korea, Vietnam, Europe all prove the feeble intellectual seriousness of you folks. That’s why yours is a dustbin idealogy. Happy down there? lol

“Just a teensy weensy billion dollars eh?”

Money well spent compared to the alternative eh? I bet you folks think the billions in the Marshall Plan were all efficiently allocated as well. lol

“You’re the archetypical neocon idiot.”

Nah, there’s nothing idiotic in the verbal smackdown I’m delivering to you bub. You represent the perfect appeasenik idiot. Ignorant of the facts, historical context and in love with self hatred. How’s that going for you?

“The more you invent my thoughts, heros etc the weaker your argument sounds.”

Nah, I’m only working with what you give me son. You need to make your
blistering bigotry more clear for us if you feel misunderstood. LOL!

“At the base, it is all supposition anyway. You refute documented facts and offer none in return.”

Documented facts, you mean the leftists publications you consider gospel? lol What about my links detailing the reconstruction efforts? Still too scared to read that dread Muslim Zionist Amir Taheri or the Zarqawi letter? Here I am offering plenty of facts which you feign such interest in and you claim they don’t exist. How sad and typical.
Here they are again when you have the moral courage to read them.
I knew you couldn’t argue and running from my links only strengthens my point. Thx for letting us all know. lol

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12106023_1
http://www.nationalreview.com/document/zarkawi200402121818.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2004/02/040212-al-zarqawi.htm

Oh and here’s some more opinions you’ll love. Try and read it before you blather okay kiddo? It looks bad for you. lol
http://www.conservative.org/pressroom/2006/060628iraq.pdf

Most of what I refute was fiction not fact. And your statement actually describes you-except for the refute part. You can replace that word with another like hide, ignore, flee, cower behind the skirt of terror. lol

“Attacking hospitals is a war crime, and there is no credible evidence that they have been used by fighters at any time as a firing position.”

Riigght. So all the credible reports of Islamists using Red Crescent ambulances as personnel carriers was all invention too? Since when did you care about war crimes when your side appeases every one committed by your friends in Al-Qaida? Hospitals can be rebuilt, and allowing them to be used as sanctuaries for terrorists would be a greater crime. Just ask the folks in Fallujah, Ramadi, Samarra, Baghdad…

“Look it up between your lols you nonce.”

LOL, so embittered and incoherent you couldn’t spell dunce properly? Or was nonce your intent? I guess it’s a word in that fantasy world you live in. lol

“I really did lol at your Castro reference. You wingnuts will believe anything won’t you?”

You like being proven wrong? You’re welcome. lol. Deep down I think it you know it to be true, which is why you’ve offered no proof to doubt Forbes’s analysis of Castro’s fortune. Forbes magazine is certainly more credible than some of the wacko sources you’ve linked here. LOL

Here is but one. There are many more, official and not. Not too many in your rightwing bubbleworld I guess.

http://www.brusselstribunal.org/DahrReport.htm

It is telling that you would blithely discard a report from the COE as a “whacko publication”. Who should we refer to for data then smartboy?

Malkin and her band of rabid racist cheerleaders for death?

There are hundreds of thousands of Iraqi refugees in Syria alone. If you’d rather let them starve because they might one day oppose US occupation, then I suggest that that is reason enough for them to hate you and your kind with a passion.

It takes a particularly twisted mind to wish to punish refugees on the basis of what a few may do in the future. You’re a sick little boy.

You’re the archetypical neocon idiot. The more you invent my thoughts, heros etc the weaker your argument sounds. At the base, it is all supposition anyway. You refute documented facts and offer none in return.

Attacking hospitals is a war crime, and there is no credible evidence that they have been used by fighters at any time as a firing position.

Look it up between your lols you nonce.

I really did lol at your Castro reference. You wingnuts will believe anything won’t you?

“Oh and BTW, Halliburton was given US$1 billion to rebuild Iraqs hospitals.

So far, nothing has happened and several hospitals have been destroyed by US troops. Nice one Dick.”

I love it when you throw crap like that out without offering any proof to back it up. Still waiting…

Maybe nothing has happened (which is unlikely given how poorly it would reflect on the company thereby harming their public image and losing future contracts). Could it be because of something called the insurgency? Hmmm? We know they sabotage oil refineries, pipelines, attack doctors and destroy clinics, assassinate opposition leaders-all in the name of Allah. And all the things you enjoy hearing about.

Now lets ask a hypothetical question. Why would troops (of any flag) ‘destroy’ hospitals? Could it be insurgents were inside firing on them? Should we treat hospitals and mosques as safe zones where terrorists can fire on our guys at will? What if they want to shoot women and kids? How bout old timers like you? Would that be okay? Well maybe if they shot just you heh? lol

“You’re living in a smug little fantasy land you twit. And get this, the US is actively stopping aid getting to refugees in Syria. What great guys. Compassionate conservativism. What a sick joke”

Am I? Or am I just able to penetrate that fog you live in with cold hard facts and logic that dismay you. It seems you’re the only one making a twit of his fantasy self here. You shamefully ignored and fled from my points to post another biased and unreliable article from a wacko publication. LOL I at least offered genuine rebuttals and argument when you can only descend into terrified name calling…pathetic.

As for the report about Syrian refugees, you basically rehashed one of your earlier links didn’t ya? lol. Ah but the writer conveniently ignores whether these newly arrived refugees are Sunnis. Since Syria is a Baathist state, therefore an idealogical brother of Hussein’s Sunni dictatorship, it’s likely these folks are former Baathists. It still doesn’t disprove my point that the number of Iraqi refugees across the Middle East have largely declined substantially since the war ended.

And what makes you so sure we stopped giving aid? Or are we just restricting aid from being used by potential terrorists? Is it so hard to think a place like the one described might be a breeding ground for future terrorists the way the ones in Jordan and the West Bank are? Syria, after all, is a transit point for your heroes in the ‘insurgency’. lol

“Are you suggesting that Palstinian refugees aren’t worth considering or counting? It wouldn’t surprise me if you were given the rabid antiPalestinian nature of most of the regulars here.”"

What I’m saying is that they aren’t native Iraqis are they? When I spoke of millions of refugees returning home was I referring to Palestianian Arabs? Hmmmm? As for being anti-Palestinian…what simplistic crockitude, folks here simply don’t support terrorism. Whether it’s Hamas, Fatah, Al-Qaida, or Timothy McVeigh (you’ve got posters of them all, don’t ya kiddo?). I’m sure we’d all support a Palestinian state in the West Bank if we were gauranteed that they’d be free of terrorists like that pig Arafat. If Hamas would recognize Israel’s right to exist that might mean something but until your friends get their act together it’s going to be a hard road for mass-murdering Islamists over there. Not to hard to see eh?

“And personally, I find it repulsive that companies associated with the ruling clique are making huge amounts of money out of war. If you can’t see the danger of those sorts of cosy arrangements then you don’t have much respect for democracy as a principle rather than just a meaningless slogan.”

The ‘ruling clique’ as you simplistically label them seem to be having quite a lot of difficulty passing key points of their agenda aren’t they? Social security reform was killed along with repeals to the death tax so don’t be so sure they rule much of anything. As for making money, what are you so offended by? You’re third world heroes like Castro are worth hundreds of millions.
http://articles.news.aol.com/business/_a/castro-is-worth-900-million-report-says/20060505092609990013
Granted it’s not from war but through the enslavement of his people. I bet it’s a model you would love to emulate, hey governor? lol

As for Halliburton-good for them. This witch hunt against a corporation is the sort of activity often carried out by folks who don’t understand and fear capitalism and economics. As long as Cheney did nothing to aid his former employer from gaining contracts, where’s the scandal? Given that it’s probably the most scrutinized company in America it would be very hard for them to accomplish fraud undetected so again, where’s the scandal? Nice try

Here’s something about your favorite company:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/12/29/165459.shtml

This snippet might interest you:
‘So far this year, Halliburton’s profits from Iraq have been minimal,” the Times admitted. “The company’s latest report to the Securities and Exchange Commission shows $1.3 billion in revenues from work in Iraq and $46 million in pretax profits for the first nine months of 2003.’

Not the sort profit margin common among war profiteers is it?

“Your sneering style is annoyingly Sally-like.”

LOL, you’re the one to criticize annoying aren’t you? LMAO!!!
And good for Sally. Face it chuckles, you’re not the victim here. I can argue straight when the other party does. I’m waiting….lol

So far, nothing has happened and several hospitals have been destroyed by US troops. Nice one Dick.

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/RMOI-6QCVK8?OpenDocument

You’re living in a smug little fantasy land you twit.

And get this, the US is actively stopping aid getting to refugees in Syria. What great guys. Compassionate conservativism. What a sick joke.
Are you suggesting that Palstinian refugees aren’t worth considering or counting? It wouldn’t surprise me if you were given the rabid antiPalestinian nature of most of the regulars here.

And personally, I find it repulsive that companies associated with the ruling clique are making huge amounts of money out of war. If you can’t see the danger of those sorts of cosy arrangements then you don’t have much respect for democracy as a principle rather than just a meaningless slogan.

Your sneering style is annoyingly Sally-like.

“http://coe-dmha.org/HARIraq.cfm”

Interesting…it doesn’t contradict my article does it? The refugee camps that existed prior to the war were emptied and this link doesn’t prove otherwise. Many of the refugees don’t seem to be Iraqis, such as the Palestinian Arabs who lived and worked in Iraq. Given their history of siding with Saddam during the last war, it might have left the local Iraqis a little less than happy to have them as neighbors. Although there are some reported refugees, nothing on the scale that existed before. Oh wait, look, it actually quotes Al-Jazeera as a legitimate news source. LOL, oh well that kills it. Is this the best you can do?

“Note the date on this article. But it all seems to have been a massive surprise to your chickenhawks in Washington. Welcomed as liberators indeed. Amoral idiots.”

Now there’s no need to get snippy Al, just try and stick to the point.
According to your left wing Guardian, it’s all just speculation about the potential refugee situation. And notice the date, February 2003-about a month before the actual invasion. So most of the predicted crises never came to pass since the war was over quickly (just 3 weeks-unless you believed Baghdad Bob-lol). Nice try man, I said I wanted fact, not fiction. LOL

“Maybe the Reagan administration missed this (just like you seem to have), along with the thousands of other reports. They wouldn’t have suppressed or glossed over them would they? Shock! Again, note the date.”

Yeah, a little bit late on the ball wouldn’t you say? I was asking about something more germane to my point. Maybe a report from the 80s, or the 70s about Cambodia, Vietnam, or Saddam. But you’d think these leftists would be happy we eliminated Saddam but noooooo. It’s funny, looking over it, it seems anyone reported hurt or killed by our military actions were considered victims of a war crime. I’d have loved to see such hypersensitivity regarding Dresden, or Tokyo, or Hamburg, or Naples, or Berlin…

“USAID is well known as being a defender of US corporate interests over the needs of the third world. Tied aid is worse than no aid in many instances and mostly it works like extortion.”

Well known huh? I’ll treat such attacks more seriously if you offer actual proof beyond opinion. Sorry…Now I’ve addressed some of this as a time saving measure in an emergency situation. Is it perfect to your liking…no it never is, is it? But is it proof of a neocon conspiracy to defraud the folks in Iraq of their hard earned freedom? That’s a stretch dude. Keep stretching…

“Thatguy, you are quite the cheerleader aren’t you?”

Nah, you are quite the troll, ain’t ya? Gimme a T. Gimme an R. Gimme an O….What you’re really saying is, ‘Thatguy, you’re making too much sense, please stop.’ Hmmm…..nope.

Is that why you ran from many of my points? Interesting…

“Pretty much all your “facts” are quite wrong and can be refuted easily by reading plain black and white numbers.”

I’m still waiting for you to refute them old chap. If you have any numbers then bring it on or are you just blustering? I’m waiting…

“George Galloway is no friend of mine, but he did go up in my estimation when he cut your silly little guttersnipe senator down to size. For that only mind you.”

Sure he’s no friend. He only agrees with you 99.9998% of the time…the traitorous bastard. You know he actually perjured himself on his Senate testimony claiming to have no knowledge of his associate’s oil (or should we say ‘oily’) dealings with Saddam. You might wanna ask his wife where she suddenly got $150,000 from. It wasn’t from the Rose law firm or Whitewater I can tell ya…lol

http://www.seixon.com/blog/archives/2005/10/every_penny_in.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/_files/PSIREPORTGallowayOct05FINAL.pdf

“Your link is to a nationalist zionist web page. Do you expect me to take that seriously?”

LOL, that as silly as I expected from ya man. How Zionistic is an Iranian muslim columnist? Any proof of that or are you just hiding? What are you afraid of? If the numbers are false, than it should be relatively easy to debunk these ‘Zionists’. I’m waiting….

“Halliburton, Bechtel, Amoco and others with strong links to the republican party under Bush/Cheney are making billions out of this war,”

There’s no crime making money or being closer to one political party than another. Since few companies are qualified to do the work Halliburton and Bechtel are capable of, it’s no accident they would be selected for much of the rebuilding in Iraq. Still waiting for proof that billions were siphoned off for no work. Again, explain how it helps a company to develop a reputation for failing to deliver on it’s contractual obligations. Next….

“largely through no-tender or closed tender contracts. The facts can be found in your congressional oversight committee records. Simple.”

It’s done that way to save time. I heard a similar measure was being used in the Katrina rebuilding to avoid the lengthy, bureaucratic process of bidding and filings that take a mountain of time to complete. So you see, there are rational explanations that don’t imply wrongdoing.

There has been some fraud, as is unavoidable in such large endevours, but much of it is attributed to Iraqi corruption, which is unfortunate. Still waiting for proof offered by you of largescale fraud from Halliburton or any of your favorite friends. lol

“It remains to be seen how much the death of Zarqawi will affect the ‘insurgency’. I don’t hold much stead in the propaganda from your military though with respect to his importance. Until a couple of months ago they were telling us he had only one leg, so there intelligence is questionable in more ways than one.”

I don’t think they were reporting he had only one leg. I think they were saying his leg injuries (incurred in Afghanistan) were treated by doctors in Iraq in 2002, after he escaped the asswhipping delivered to his Al-Qaida masters by the US military. The loss of his files, address and contacts books, and incidentally his life lead to over 400+ raids withing 72 hours of his rude awakening in hell. It netted 700+ prisoners and 100+ dead terrorists. It’s hard to imagine the terror network can recover from such a huge blow. Good luck trying though. The propaganda blow was tremendous. And it’s unclear how much effect Zarqawi was having even when he was alive. Captured letters show an increasing difficulty finding skilled recruits and safe houses while commenting on the increased effectiveness of the Iraqi army and police. See it for yourself. Don’t be scared, lol:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2004/02/040212-al-zarqawi.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/document/zarkawi200402121818.asp

“Amnesty, UN agencies and many others were reporting Saddam’s abuses long before you republicans and no, US/Saudi aid to Saddam didn’t stop in the early 80s. You should check your facts, they are freely available from official sources. The tacit and covert support of Saddam was a well known ’secret’. The large scale killing happened mostly while he was your client. If it didn’t make the evening news in the US then more fool you.”

Don’t be bitter little man. And how do ya know I’m even Republican? Can a Democrat or Independent express a Conservative viewpoint? No? What a narrow minded world you must live in-steeped in leftist dogma and doctrine. Re-read my last post dude.

I never said US aid stopped during the early 80s. My point was that US aid dried up soon after the Kurdish massacres (as far as I knew), which would make that the late 80s, wouldn’t it? But I’m sure you’re right and that there were some complaints from human rights groups but far out of proportion to their collective wail about our presence there now. Doesn’t that strike you as strange? They peep and offer token outrage over 300,000 murdered, raped, and tortured by Saddam but launch a breathtakingly silly group cryathon about the comparatively benign administering by us?

“The lap dog reputation of the mainstream press in the US is widely known and despised. The neocon conspiracy theories regarding a left wing bias in the media are, possibly, the silliest and saddest aspects of your wingnuttery. Unbelievably naive and stupid.”

Really? Tell that to the New York Times and Los Angeles Times since they love publishing details of classified programs that are either useful or essential to our national security. Or go ask Judith Miller why she spent several nearly 80 days in prison for refusing to reveal a government source. It’s a convenient fiction to call them subservient but their past and present behavior is hardly that of people friendly to the current administration. How do ya explain that dude?

“If you think it is clever to use “lol” so often, if at all, you aren’t clever. It makes you read like a prat. Just a thought.”

It’s sweet of you to consider my image but I thing I’ll keep on with what I like thank you. If I read like such a prat than why reply? What does it make someone like you who replies to the pratly? Hmmm? Just a thought.

6. Reconstruction contracts
In recent weeks the US Agency for International Development (USAID) awarded contracts to US consortia for projects worth US$1.7 billion. The projects range from building schools and roads, to managing the oil sector and advising the Iraqi central bank. Energy industry analysts are openly speculating that some oil companies would like the occupying powers to tear up existing contracts between Iraq and other companies so that they can explore in one of the world’s largest oil reservoirs.(40) The process of awarding initial contracts has been criticized as arbitrary, and there is no guarantee that due process will be followed in awarding oil concessions.

Disbursements from the Development Fund are controlled by the occupying powers, and Resolution 1483 directs that the needs of Iraqi people ought to guide such decisions. There is no provision made, however, to allow a complaint mechanism or some such procedure so that Iraqis might contest particular projects or how contracts are awarded. The former head of the US-affiliate of the Anglo-Dutch Shell Group has been appointed to run the Iraqi National Oil Co.,(41) with an advisory board made up of Iraqis and foreigner nationals, assisting him. A senior Iraqi professional has been named as the equivalent of a chief executive officer.

Since the announcement of the USAID contracts, companies from the UK have lobbied their government to represent their business interests. In late May, Bechtel Corporation, a US company which won the main reconstruction contract, organized meetings in the USA, the UK and the Middle East with potential subcontracting bidders from a number of countries.

USAID is well known as being a defender of US corporate interests over the needs of the third world. Tied aid is worse than no aid in many instances and mostly it works like extortion.

They wouldn’t have suppressed or glossed over them would they? Shock!

Again, note the date.

http://www.phrusa.org/research/iraq/docs/iraqsurvey.pdf

Welcomed as liberators indeed. Amoral idiots.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,,886603,00.html

Pretty much all your “facts” are quite wrong and can be refuted easily by reading plain black and white numbers.

George Galloway is no friend of mine, but he did go up in my estimation when he cut your silly little guttersnipe senator down to size. For that only mind you.

Your link is to a nationalist zionist web page. Do you expect me to take that seriously?

Halliburton, Bechtel, Amoco and others with strong links to the republican party under Bush/Cheney are making billions out of this war, largely through no-tender or closed tender contracts. The facts can be found in your congressional oversight committee records. Simple.

It remains to be seen how much the death of Zarqawi will affect the ‘insurgency’. I don’t hold much stead in the propaganda from your military though with respect to his importance. Until a couple of months ago they were telling us he had only one leg, so there intelligence is questionable in more ways than one.

Amnesty, UN agencies and many others were reporting Saddam’s abuses long before you republicans and no, US/Saudi aid to Saddam didn’t stop in the early 80s. You should check your facts, they are freely available from official sources. The tacit and covert support of Saddam was a well known ’secret’. The large scale killing happened mostly while he was your client. If it didn’t make the evening news in the US then more fool you.

The lap dog reputation of the mainstream press in the US is widely known and despised. The neocon conspiracy theories regarding a left wing bias in the media are, possibly, the silliest and saddest aspects of your wingnuttery. Unbelievably naive and stupid.

If you think it is clever to use “lol” so often, if at all, you aren’t clever. It makes you read like a prat. Just a thought.

While I favor agent provocateur as a more proper label than troll, I have to say after having read Apocalypse Troll by david Weber, the title has a certain ring to it.

I have to admit, old chap that guy, I could do a better job of criticizing Bush, convincing Republicans that they are on the wrong path, and being praised for such compared to Conned here.

How and Why? Simply because, I try and seek out the true beliefs of a person, what they really want. Once I obtain that, I can convince them with specific arguments tailored to their desires and specific concerns.

The Left wants to supplant America into some super-perfect uber-nation of noblesse oblige rich people. I can never give them what they want or even consider doing so. So, negotiations break down, we get out the guns, and assassinations start. (like IRA)

If we win, there’ll be peace and joy, if we lose, well let’s not lose, okay?

“widely acknowledged by the unthinking neo-con denizens of this blog”

LoL. If you read the recent posts by neo con herself and other commenters regarding trolling, you’ll see postsby other liberals who were appalled by the trollish behavior of the their idealogical cousins. Certainly you’ve read their remarks or were you too afraid and unthinking to do so?

widely acknowledged by the unthinking neo-con denizens of this blog

“Of course, but as Weary G recognized, just because people don’t favor each other’s beliefs, doesn’t mean there is a need to assassinate each other personally or metaphorically though our character. “

Now I don’t get personal unless I’m attacked first. But it’s widely acknowledged here that certain liberals posting here are trolls so I’d almost be remiss if I didn’t point out the obvious, wouldn’t I?

Damn you’re good. Point by point refutation, dead on.

But (no pun intended) perhaps you know better than I how often he practices the rear end denials. You seem to have posted more often than I.

Indeed, but there’s less pressure recently to reply to Confude since everyone now wants a piece of Confude. Very very different from back when Confude was just talking to me and me alone. Which was several, several threads back, back to when he first visited this site to “honestly understand the opposition views”.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt. You know the rest.

A well reasoned essay shouldn’t be dismissed so easily.

Of course, but as Weary G recognized, just because people don’t favor each other’s beliefs, doesn’t mean there is a need to assassinate each other personally or metaphorically though our character. Weary G did not call me an extremist when I favored taking the UN staff dudes hostage, and I didn’t call him a wuss or pro-UN genocider when he favored more peaceful means.

However, “well reasoned” is subjective, based upon whether you, the person, has any “ability to reason”. Some people don’t use the same reasoning you or I do, others don’t even use the same “metaphysical epistemology”. Which is different than saying someone has different reasons. Epistemology was very useful for me to learn. Although it took awhile to learn how to apply it to human psychology and internet arguments.

I hear the CIA card thrown around a lot but not much proof to back it up. Maybe you have some. Please share.

The only proof I have is that I read Iraq the Model, and if I was a CIA operative, I wouldn’t do it the way it has been done. That’s a reason to disbelieve the CIA charge of course, but then again, I never believed the CIA had enough balls and brains to do anything as subtle and effective as Iraq the Model in the first place.

But, that doesn’t mean I can’t do the devil’s advocate position and tell you that people see things another way, i.e. CIA operatives.

People who believe as I think they believe, has many operative paths to choose if you knock our their neo-con route. It’s like a terroist cell in methodology, if not morality. One falls down, another activates.

Takes Charles (charlemagne) for example. He posited that Iraqis have a position of hate and fear of the US (not exactly his exact wording), because Confude asked him a question about what Iraqs probably believe. So I countered with Iraq the Model’s comments about the subject. Charles didn’t believe it, said that Iraq the Model could be be propaganda via the CIA or Bush, and that was it. Innuendo vs actuality.

The epistemology is not the same. Charles believes that the possibility of corruption invalidates the results, I believe you need more reasons and justifications and evidence than a “possibility” to discount something.

I don’t take truck with the ad hominem argument that just because someone is biased, that what they say is inaccurate. The global media’s history of disinformation and inaccuracy is much more persuasive than say, their internal biases.

“Is there a particular reason you believe he needs practice with that, that guy?”

Judging by his attacks and assertions, I was curious if he could provide something besides his opinion to back up his point. But (no pun intended) perhaps you know better than I how often he practices the rear end denials. You seem to have posted more often than I.

“People don’t have to be a neo con to be a paid CIA agent and crackpot, you know.”

A well reasoned essay shouldn’t be dismissed so easily. Any proof Taheri is anything other than what he says he is? I’ve read several columns of his and I detect nothing hinting at a crackpot point of view.

I hear the CIA card thrown around a lot but not much proof to back it up. Maybe you have some. Please share.

Is there a particular reason you believe he needs practice with that, that guy?

This report from Amir Taheri (as far from a neo-con as you can get),

People don’t have to be a neo con to be a paid CIA agent and crackpot, you know.

“This is some sort of a joke isn’t it? Have they built as many schools as they destroyed yet? No.”

Why do you find facts which contradict your fixed opinions sickly funny? Actually, I was wondering if you were serious since it’s been reported that schools are open with new ones being built. There are 8.5 million Iraqi kids now in school, an all time high, and yet that’s not a sign of progress to you. Wow. And unless, you can provide a reliable accounting of the number of schools destroyed by us, I can’t take your opinion as gospel, sorry…

“Electricity for all? No. Supplies even in the main cities are spasmodic at best.”

True enough but there never was electricity for all in Iraq under Saddam either. But they have more now in many places than when Saddam was rationing it off in favor of Baghdad. Restoring the electrical grid will be a long, laborous process which wasn’t helped by the dilapitaded state Saddam left it in. And don’t blame the sanctions, the electrical grid was well run down long before the first Gulf war.

As for this talk of Halliburton and Co. siphoning off billions, do you have actual proof? Anything at all? Even a genuine article from Al-Reuters might be something. Or are you praciticing a ‘talk outta your anus’ moment? But for the life of me, I can’t see how it helps Halliburton’s image or any company to be accused of corruption or incompetance. Just how would such an image foster confidence from nation states to award further contracts?

And it doesn’t seem to be going too badly in Iraq. This report from Amir Taheri (as far from a neo-con as you can get) offers a fairly reasoned and balanced analysis of conditions in Iraq and suggests reasons to be optimistic. Take your time.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12106023_1

“A less corrupt police force? No, there are numerous credible reports of police militias and death squads and involvement in organized crime.”

Reports from Al-Jazeera, Al-Reuters, and Al-AP? You’ve got to be kidding. lol. Any organization that was known for jailing children, raping women and videotaping the act, and carrying out brutal executions (including feeding live prisoners through wood chippers) will likely be perceived by history as the more corrupt and vile. Compare that with the largely scattered and less than reliable reports of death squads operating in Iraq killing terrorist sympathizing Sunnis. Good luck with that moral equivalence thing. So yeah, the current police is less corrupt, not perfect, but better than their predecessors.

“Expats returning? That really is a sick joke.”

Nothing funny about it my man. It’s been reported that the refugee camps that existed prior to the war (in some cases for decades) have largely emptied since the end of the war. There were millions there who now have returned to Iraq. You know enter a war torn country. You didn’t miss that story did ya?

“Stalinists favourite son? Reagan’s “rock in the middle east” don’t you mean?”

The Baathist party was a Socialistic entity. Most of their military hardware came from the French and the Soviet Union. Sounds like a son of Stalin to me. In fact the French were still owed billions in unpaid bills by their boy before the war. Maybe that was part of the reason they chose to oppose the intervention? Hmmm?

“Terrorist appeasers? I’ll ask one if I ever meet one.”

Go talk to your ally Galloway then. lol

“There were plenty of people calling for action in all the situations you mention.”

Were there? Then name one. A significant group of leftists who loved Saddam who actually criticized his mass murder? Give it a try. How about Cambodia? Or Rwanda? Go ahead…

“Reagan administration when he was committing those crimes against humanity? No, they were paying him $1 billion a year to carry on, supplied him with weapons and arms, cheered him on and actively assisted in the gulf war.”

Did not Reagan restrict ties with Saddam after the Kurdish massacres? I thought I read that somewhere. But even so, what contacts Reagan had with Saddam seemed to have ended sometime around that time. Why would that be? However, the French and Russians never. Maybe it also had something to do with certain oil fields near Mosul?

“I’m not going to grace your ‘gentle occupation’ comment with a response.”

Well because I suspect deep down, you know my point to be true. Compared with our not too gentle conquest and/or liberation of Italy, Germany, France. South Korea, South Vietnam… How many died at Dresden? 100,000? 200,000? 300,000? All towards the end of the war when the Germans’ military strength was almost spent? I think an Iraqi would prefer Baghdad 2003-present day to being in Dresden on April 13-15, 1945. LOL

“You need to read some facts about what is happening. Not ultranationalist cheerleader blogs. Your ignorance of the reality is stunning. “

Now you know that ain’t true. Alternative media has owned the Saddam/Al-Qaida/Iraq story which the mainstream press won’t cover. It may be biased in favor of Iraq but when your side won’t seemingly offer any substantive rebuttals on things like the WMDs found in Iraq or Hikmak Shakir, it sorta proves their points, doesn’t it?

Your definition of reality is what’s stunning, which is the reason I felt the need to comment on your ignorance here. You shouldn’t drink all that Al-Jazeera kool aid, it’s not nice for your teeth or your mind dude. lol

“No you haven’t. Electricity, sewage , health care facilities and accessability remain well below pre-invasion levels. Preventable disease is on the rise - unemployment is at 50%, inflation is massive while living wages….”

I haven’t seen any credible sources indicating that. In fact, the reports I’ve read indicated a general parity, even improvement from pre-war levels. Are the inflation levels anywhere near the record heights reported during the 90s when people in neighboring countries refused it? The countrys’ electrical grid is more evenly distributed as compared to the days when Saddam was siphoning it off to favor select areas of Baghdad. Much of the reported problems stem from violence and terrorist sabotage. But even with the reported problems, would the majority of Iraqis have preferred their rapist-in-chief (no, not Bill CLinton, lol) to the current establishment? Would the Kurds, the Shias? hmm….

Read Amir Taheri, an Iranian journalist who recently reported on conditions in Iraq. It seems there’s reason to be optimistic?
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12106023_1

“Tell me mate - how would you know there was nary a peep from the left about civilian deaths during Saddam’s time? Where were you? You ‘ve got to be joking? Is this a point?”

Are you making one now matey? Do we not all sense a hesitation from the UN from condemning what’s plainly happening in the Sudan as genocide? And was Galloway decrying the hundreds of thousands his patron Saddam was killing? I don’t quite remember, remind me please…

“Same with displaced populations in Cambodia and Vietnam. I guess you missed the fact that the U.S dropped more tonnage of bombs on Indochina than was dropped during the entire Second World War - but I suppose that had nothing to do with it lol. Unbelievable.”

That’s silly, the bombings didn’t help, but don’t forget it was the Leftist Khoumer Rouge who carried out the mass killings and starvations in Cambodia, not the US Air Force. How could the US Air Force do such a thing when your feet need to touch the ground for that little messy business of shooting and burying someone? lol

As for Vietnam, I was specifically referring to the mass exodus of people after the Communist takeover of South Vietnam. You might wanna blame Uncle Ho’s minions, who succeeded him after his death, for pushing millions of his own people to flee the country. And maybe add a little more blame to the Democrats for cutting military aid to South Vietnam after 1972.

But my point again is not the amount of death from above we delivered but whether the Stalinist Left or the Democrats actually offered any protest during the killing fields of Cambodia, the executions of Hue, the ‘re-education camps’ in Vietnam, the mass refugee exodus after Saigon fell, or Rwanda. What little, if any protests, they offered in the past is paltry in comparison to less violent and bloody present.

“Gentle? Wow. How’s that for intelligent analysis. Good models for comparison lol. See my above post and others for the current plight of Iraqis after three wars, 12 years of sanctions, a corrupt occuption and no end in sight. Unbelievable….”

Awww, now where’s the hate coming from homey? I thought it was a good enough model, if I do say so myself, since it ain’t that hard to follow the fact that we killed hundreds of thousands to several million civvies during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam while killing a far lower amount today in Iraq. Not too hard to understand, is it matey? lol The best the left can seemingly offer as a counter is a flawed Lancet study which has been debunked. Oh yeah, you didn’t forget that Saddam stole much of the Oil for Food money earmarked for his people did ya? Ya know, it’s what the whole ‘oil for food’ scandal is mainly about? And why Benon Sevon, former head of the Oil for Food Program, is hiding in Cyprus (last I checked) to escape prosecution? lol

Insurgencies like this do not end quickly but require suppression over a gradual period of time. When the Iraqi police and Army display sufficient counter-insurgency proficiency, our role can be scaled back. Already there is talk of troop reductions by the end of this year, largely due to the terrorist roll up we conducted after capturing much of Zarqawi’s personal files and records. Counter-insurgency takes time but it’s no excuse to cut and run prematurely is it?

“No comment. And this type of innane nonsense derserves none.”

Yet you take the time to reply to me, what does that make you? hmmm…. Even though you describe your post precisely, I still feel the need to comment on your angry and flawed attack. Hope you enjoy it and maybe take a breath before your next response. lol

Does it really matter to the survivors and victims who started the annihilation of humanity in WWIII? What matters is what happens now and later because of that. It matters a lot who engages in extreme violent actions and who refuse to tone it down in favor of political self-interest. Insurgents and terroists like the IRA have left their arms in favor of politics, because it was better to live in peace than in the sea of blood red violence. When people say we should focus on the intial “obvious crime” (in your view), this justifies continual blood feud and devastation with no end in sight.

There is nothing immoral about the IRA setting down their arms in the hopes of peaceful co-existence and the safety of their children. Honest resistances want peace and prosperity and would give up the gun if they could be assured they wouldn’t be exterminated once they did.

When terroists blow up civilians on a continuous basis, and we have you here saying the initial problem that must be considered is the invasion, you present a problem that does not serve the interests of peace nor prosperity.

There is nothing obvious about your opinion that the Iraq invasion was a crime and the initial problem.

Arguing that the insurgency are the problem and that defeating them will make everything allright is immoral.

That would be the duly elected Iraqi government. I suppose you might believe that elected governments do not have the moral authority to decide what the policy should be in the best interests of the voting citizens, but I’d have to disagree with you.

Consider in terms of how you support the U.S troops in Iraq - you support them but don’t support what they did in Haditha(I would hope not) - but for you that doesn’t negate the righteousness of their mission(if I may be so presumptous.

Your analysis is wrong. Simply because, if that is all that the US soldiers did in Iraq, the purported propaganda that is called Haditha, then there is no righteousness in their mission. We didn’t send soldiers to sacrifice life and limb so they can shoot a bunch of women and children, your unbeatable insurgent terroists however, did.

Drawing a distintion or proclaming the high ground by pointing to corruption in ‘there’ forces while defending your own from comparable atrocities gives it away.

I’ll make a stand and say that Haditha is an enemy propaganda project conducted in order to sow disinformation amongst Americans and the global media.

A refreshing change from the conservatives who usually say that “they don’t know what happened”. Ah, but I’m taking a gamble.

The US Marines have no comparable atrocities, and you are unable to prove it one way or the other.

Weary Can anyone else name something which might have contributed to the current plight of the Iraqi people?

I’ll bite. Saddam and the Nazi inspired Baathists. More Nazi than Baathist I’d wager, they even favor the same amount of meticulous paperwork for some reason.

Saddam, Steve. Saddam, right?

I’m reading this in sequence, so I guess I got it right cause I didn’t peek.

While I share Justin’s disdain of teachers who waste class time asking questions that don’t really teach us anything, (Socratic Method is not asking a bunch of questions to start a lecture) I don’t see Weary as being a teacher, so the dynamic isn’t the same. Besides, he wasn’t asking me the question so much as steve. If steve doesn’t want to answer, that’s between him and weary. Since I figured the answer out when I started considering, it’s not a big frustration with me.

I’m a life long rugby bloke. Sorry.

I did sneak a look at that game though and have to say I was very proud of the way they played and the commitment shown. Hard to see us going all the way but as you would know, you write an Aussie team off at your peril.

If they beat Italy I’ll take my place on the bandwagon for sure.

I noticed your thread about the World Cup - if you are congrats - the match against the Croats was the wildest, best game I’ve seen yet - good stuff.

I’m a Liverpool supporter so it was great to see Kewell finally get on the scoresheet in a big way(he should have had a hat-trick against Brazil)…

“s we are being objective, I’d like a bit more from you on the above statement, please. Which resolutions and what ACTUAL noncompliance?

This is an important issue because it recurs through your rightwingnut world endlessly, without explanation.

Should every country that doesn’t comply with UN resolutions incur sanctions, invasion and indiscriminate destruction of its civilian infrastructure and population?”

To add to that I’d say the sanctions regime was placed punitivley and not because of any recurrent violations of international law(after the Gulf War and unconditional surrender) and were placed almost entirely at the behest of the U.S.

The U.N has quite often remained silent on major crimes of the U.S - there was absolute silence at the U.N during Vietnam, next to the Nazi holocaust, the most horrific and outrageous case of pure aggression of the 20th century.