June 24th, 2006

And the voice of neo-neocon is heard in the land

If you’ve ever had a yen to hear my voice, now’s your chance. Here’s an interview I did for “Blog Week in Review” at Pajamas Media.

I was in illustrious company, at least in blogosphere terms: Austin Bay is the moderator, and my fellow-interviewees were Glenn Reynolds and Marc Cooper.

88 Responses to “And the voice of neo-neocon is heard in the land”

  1. confusedforeigner Says:

    From Wiki…

    [edit]
    Medals awarded

    While issuing notes of regret over the loss of human life, the U.S. government has, to date, neither admitted any wrong-doing or responsibility in this tragedy, nor apologised, but continues to blame Iranian hostile actions for the incident. The men of the Vincennes were all awarded combat-action ribbons. Commander Lustig, the air-warfare co-ordinator, even won the navy’s Commendation Medal for “heroic achievement,” his “ability to maintain his poise and confidence under fire” having enabled him to “quickly and precisely complete the firing procedure.”[2] According to a 23 April 1990 article in The Washington Post, the Legion of Merit was presented to Captain Rogers and Lieutenant Commander Lustig on 3 July 1988. The citations did not mention the downing of the Iran Air flight at all. It should be noted that the Legion of Merit is often awarded to high-ranking officers upon successful completion of especially difficult duty assignments and/or last tours of duty before retirement.
    The incident continued to overshadow U.S.-Iran relations for many years. Following the explosion of Pan Am Flight 103 six months later, the British and American governments initially blamed the PFLP-GC, a Palestinian militant group backed by Syria, with assumptions of assistance from Iran in retaliation for Iran Air Flight 655.[7] The cause of the crash was later determined to be a bomb associated with the Libyan intelligence service, though an Iranian group had claimed responsibility for it.[citation needed]
    The Flight 655 incident has often been compared to that of Korean Air Flight 007 interception by the Soviet Air Force in 1983.
    The Vice-President George H. W. Bush declared a month later, “I will never apologise for the United States of America, ever. I don’t care what it has done. I don’t care what the facts are.” [8][9][10][11]
    [edit]
    Compensation

    On February 22, 1996 the United States agreed to pay Iran US$ 61.8 million in compensation ($300,000 per wage-earning victim, $150,000 per non-wage-earner) for the 248 Iranians killed in the shootdown. This was an agreed settlement to discontinue a case brought by Iran in 1989 against the U.S. in the International Court of Justice.[12] The payment of compensation was explicitly characterised by the US as being on an ex gratia basis, and the U.S. denied having any responsibility or liability for the incident.
    The United States has not compensated Iran for the airplane itself, to date. The aircraft was worth more than $30 million.

  2. confusedforeigner Says:

    And still, never owned up to. And the captain was decorated FFS.

    Hypocrites. No credibility, no moral high ground.

  3. confusedforeigner Says:

    Sally……Which may not be strictly an “apology”, but which is pretty close

    So, I was right. NO APOLOGY. And how long did it take for threm to pay the compensation Sally? Clinton wasn’t it?

  4. Ymarsakar Says:

    I don’t care, so it is easy for me to tune it out.

  5. Ariel Says:

    Sally, Dougla, et al.

    I do thank you for your replies, however, I had earlier decided, and promised, to no longer engage the trolls. I look at their nasty insults, challenges, etc. as comic relief.

    I have broken that promise once only, in Neo’s post “Islam: tear down this wall”, because I could not let stand neo-nazi/Aryan Nation anti-semitic tripe. If you haven’t read her post and comments I suggest you do.
    I will not engage trolls again.

    If you run across such quotes and are suspicious, please go to The Talmud Exposed (google it) which is “a project to provide responses to the anti-Semites who post alleged quotes from the Talmud and other anti-Jewish propaganda in a way intended to promote hatred of Jews.”

  6. Sally Says:

    Charlie (and Douglas, and for the record):

    Regarding this 18 year old incident —

    Here’s what, and all of what, Ariel said:
    The downing by the Vincinnes was a mistake and owned up to, as well as paid for. Reagan gave his apologies to all concerned.

    Here’s what Reagan said at the time:
    This is a terrible human tragedy. Our sympathy and condolences go out to the passengers, crew and their families.
    (Which may not be strictly an “apology”, but which is pretty close.)

    And here’s what the US paid to the families involved: US$61.8 million.

  7. confusedforeigner Says:

    At 7:38 AM, June 26, 2006, douglas said…
    “At 10:45 PM, June 25, 2006, confudeforeigner said…
    Ariel said…

    The downing by the Vincinnes was a mistake and owned up to, as well as paid for. Reagan gave his apologies to all concerned.

    So, Ariel, care to comment on these factually incorrect statements?”

    She is factually correct. I just read the entire transcript you linked to. When you re-read it, keep in mind the block-quote boxes used to insert references are inserted by secondary authors.

    Hmmm, well no Douglas. The shooting down may have been an accident, but it was certainly avoidable and would NOT have occurred if the Vincennes had been in international waters as they claimed. They then also tried to create a story regarding a tanker being in distress. Only problem was, the tanker didn’t exist. Funny that.

    Your statement that Rogers had no way of knowing what the aircraft was is palpably false. Read the story again.

    There are serious doubts about who actually set the mines that hit the tankers too.

    Reagan never apologised, the US lied regarding ALL the circumstances and they fought paying compensation right to the bitter end when they settled out of court. Reagan lied to congress and the UN and was responsible for false testimony being submitted to the World Court in the Hague.

    The treatment of the story that I’ve linked to is pretty mild on the US, being a proUS media outlet.

    The hard evidence is even more damning.

    Yet Rogers was decorated and the Libyans got blamed for Lockerbie.

    Reagan was never censured for misleading the people of the USA, the UN and the World Court.

    But, the statement was made by Obersturmfeuhrer Ariel who hasn’t the balls to defend it. War, lies and videotape. Family values eh?

  8. neoneoconned Says:

    I’m a visual and auditory learner for some weird reason.
    is this because it is the form your hallucinations arrive in.

    Good luck charlie I give it a week before you are declared a troll.

    I met a traveler from an antique land
    Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed,
    And on the pedestal these words appear:
    “My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
    Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.

    -Percy Bysshe Shelley
    1792-1822

  9. Ymarsakar Says:

    I’m a visual and auditory learner for some weird reason.

    But the visuals aren’t words, but rather diagrams and pictures, sort of like 5% dyslexia.

  10. neo-neocon Says:

    douglas: I’m a visual learner, too, and don’t do as well with taking in information auditorially. See this.

  11. douglas Says:

    Good. I’m not sure why you assume (particularly after many links from non-left sites) that we, generally, ‘don’t get out much’…

    On-Topic: Neo sounded good, I thought, but I’m not much for the podcast thing- I like the control of my time that I have in reading a post and comments, rather than the binding linearity of an audio track- which doesn’t even have visual cues that I can fast forward to. Text is good.

  12. Charlemagne Says:

    Well, I haven’t checked out any “left-wing” blogs either. I’m quite new to the blogosphere.

    I do browse conservative/neocon journals such as Commentary and New Criterion from time to time.

  13. douglas Says:

    “At 10:45 PM, June 25, 2006, confudeforeigner said…
    Ariel said…

    The downing by the Vincinnes was a mistake and owned up to, as well as paid for. Reagan gave his apologies to all concerned.

    So, Ariel, care to comment on these factually incorrect statements?”

    She is factually correct. I just read the entire transcript you linked to. When you re-read it, keep in mind the block-quote boxes used to insert references are inserted by secondary authors.

    The assertion of the Nightline investigation that you linked is that the details of the Vincennes incident were not discussed honestly in public. No surprise.
    The report actually verifies that the shoot-down was accidental- it was not an intended consequence or target of the alleged mission, and the captain of the Vincennes, under the circumstances of the immediate issue of being in a naval action and having a limited time to respond, took appropriate action to protect his ship. Of course, the problem was it wasn’t an actual threat and he could not have known that. The Nightline investigation does nothing to dispel that assertion. It points out apparent inconsistancies in accounts of the event and documentation, and outlines an apparent cover-up, but that’s it. Still an accident. You also need to keep in mind that Iran was actively mining the Persian Gulf at that time, and that is an act of aggression in international waters- you and Nightline like to gloss over that fact. If you want to discuss culpability or liablility, that might be a different issue, but there’s a lot to discuss on that regard- it’s a complex picture.

  14. douglas Says:

    Charlemagne said…
    neoneoconned wrote:

    “… It seems to me that what is developing are groups of people who agree with each other mutually supporting the group-think of that faction.”

    Exactly — I hadn’t checked out any right-wing/neocon blogs before, and this one and the freerepublic blogs were the first (and only) ones I checked out.

    Perhaps you should get out of your ‘group-think faction’ more often.

  15. Senescent Wasp Says:

    esad

  16. Charlemagne Says:

    Wasp,

    Confudeforeigner has posted the link (since you wanted links):

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ir655-nightline-19920701.html

    Now refute it, please.

    I hope you won’t “cut and run”, but will refute the contents of the link.

    Awaiting your response.

  17. confusedforeigner Says:

    Ariel said…
    Wasp,
    Go to Neo’s post “Patience” and read all.

    1:13 AM, June 26, 2006

    No balls?

  18. confusedforeigner Says:

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ir655-nightline-19920701.html

  19. Ariel Says:

    Wasp,
    Go to Neo’s post “Patience” and read all.

  20. confusedforeigner Says:

    Buzzybee, I presented the evidence. As is usual, Obersturmfuehrer Ariel changed the subject and proclaimed ‘victory’. Apparently all that was a manipulation though. Geeez, given your several faux pas in the thread, it was at best a Pyrrhic.

    He really is an unconscionable liar.

    I’d be happy to dissect the White Australia policy with him too. Between you and me though, it doesn’t look that great from a pro US conservative stance, so he’ll cut and run from that too no doubt.

    That’s what you guys are really good at ain’t it? Cutting and running. No heart I guess.

  21. Senescent Wasp Says:

    Fudd, that was an assertion. Can’t you do any better than that? Let’s have a few links; a marshaling of facts, s presentation.

    Once again you tell other people to do your work for you. Dishonest.

    Return, out of bounds. Advantage Ariel. Play on.

  22. confusedforeigner Says:

    Ariel said…

    The downing by the Vincinnes was a mistake and owned up to, as well as paid for. Reagan gave his apologies to all concerned.

    So, Ariel, care to comment on these factually incorrect statements? Telling lies seems to be about the only thing you do, and not very well.

    Master manipulator indeed.

  23. confusedforeigner Says:

    According to neo Kim Jong-Il has his feet firmly planted “on this earth” but Ali Khamenei and the rest of the ayatollahs don’t.

    Interesting. It’ll take me a while to get my head around that.

  24. confusedforeigner Says:

    We not be as sheltered as ye think.

    Oh yeah. the old “my best friend is ……… (insert minority of choice), so I can’t be a racist” line.

    Great manipulation Ariel. Your a master alright. :-)

  25. confusedforeigner Says:

    Senescent Wasp said…
    From an odd little motel sitting practically on top of the San Andres Fault.

    In Re: Stahl/Albright 5-12-96. This is the Clinton Administration’s mouth speaking. Their foreign policy was not renown for its’ “efficiency”. q.v. no armor for the Somalia Mission.

    The reason the food was not getting to the “little chillrin” was that the Sunni kleptocracy was stealing the money allocated to food and medicine with the connivance of the UN kleptocrats who had their muzzles buried in the “Food for Oil” trough.

    This is discredited Leftist Meme 96-331-A4 from The Golden Book of Leftist Lies and distortions.

    1:19 AM, June 25, 2006

    This is a classic example of the referential disconnect.

    2 points.

    1. The amount of money syphoned out was relatively small and, in most instances (eg the AWB payments) didn’t actually come out of the oil money. The total effect on the quantities of food and medecines was negligable. You can look it up and do the maths.

    2. The neocon notion that your ideological opponents are necessarily for pro GWBs domestic political opponents. Quite wrong.

    Clinton/Albright were disasters in the middle east and totally craven in their lack of spine in dealing with Israeli expansionism and mass murder.

    Clinton used to brag that he was the most proIsraeli president the US ever had.

  26. confusedforeigner Says:

    Ariel…
    The “no rules” they espouse should be a dead give away. Every logical fallacy, every sophistry, every insult, every disrespect is thus a tool on their belt. Nothing is gained, nothing is learned, from them. The knowledge you gain trying to argue back can be had without indulging them. Don’t involve them.

    Conned’s last two posts are simply more examples of the use of those tools. Analyze them and you’ll see what I mean. Much was out of context, and he graciously left out the part he played in those responses.

    Sally put it quite succinctly.

    Anyway, Neo has reiterated her policy. I’m going to abide by it. Besides, I disagree with enough here to keep it lively. Although, I may get my feelings hurt.:-)

    Which all just goes to prove…..there’s no fool like an old fool. All that smugness. Tsk tsk.

    Classical liberal eh? Heehee.

  27. gatorbait Says:

    Neo, loved your voice. sounded clear , concise and alluring. Thank God no one had to hear mine.

  28. Ymarsakar Says:

    And what does that mean, that McVeigh is a good model of what you’re aiming for for yourself — the elimination of “societal boundaries”? All I can say is that I hope not.

    If you will recall sally, I made the point about acids and bases. To apply my reasoning thus to McVeigh, he was never under any type of internal controls in the first place. I am. Psychopaths can never be chained by guilt because they feel no guilt, thus it is quite impossible for me to achieve McVeigh level psychopathy.

    In essence, Boot Camp trains civilians and city boys how to take orders and how to do what is necessary, because there is no other choice. They teach them how to react correctly, they teach officers to give the right orders. And the NCOs are the oil that allows the machine to operate. If you believe that military training does not make human beings into psychopaths, then you cannot in good conscience disagree with my points as I laid it out.

    Why would I hope not? Do you think that’s just some sort of liberal squeamishness?

    Forgive the lack of clarification, but I was refering to Ariel’s comments about 30 years from now and the comments she made concerning assassination. My narative will skip to the commentator that I was reading currently when I wrote what I wrote.

    at the rate that tuition is going up in US universities,

    To provide the reasoning that people like charles contribute no energy into producing, the tuition in ivy league liberal arts colleges are increasing. The tuition for technical institutes and communal colleges are quite affordable.

    And, you know, is the price worth it?”

    Charles, maybe you missed out when I said to Conned that I was a true believer in the United States Constitution. How many people do you believe I would sanction the death of giving this context? And for what?

    Albright has no core philosophical beliefs.


    I think he might be, folks, inadvertantly revealing the undercurrent of real racism that underlies much of contemporary left liberalism. You can see the same thing in his mentor, conned, by the way.

    Sally, stop talking about people being racist or having undercurrents of real racism. You think becoming like Confude will make you any more pleansant to read?

    We not be as sheltered as ye think.

    Well Ariel, if that was true, then Charles might have to admit that his opposition has some cuttingly devastating arguments and solid positions. He might then have to consider them in a new light, which would threaten his previous beliefs.

    my guess, people, is that these are all the same person and that person is a resident troll.
    Mrswhatsit
    I differ on that because I am quite sensitive to the mental voice tones of people, and I try and pay hard attention to writing technique and inconsistencies. There are too many inconsistencies in Conned vs Confude vs Charles vs um the other, for them to be the same person. So I’d have to disagree here.

    Best comment from wasp yet, in the above.

  29. Senescent Wasp Says:

    Since certain people seem to have trouble with nuance let’s try something.

    It is one thing to advocate political change. Politicians fear losing power. Of course, a free people always have the option of overturning or resisting tyranny by force of arms. It is right that advocacy of overturn should have some penalty attached to it, and even Jefferson, pointing to the right of overthrow,The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants., acknowledged the right. It is also the reason why the Second Amendment to the Constitution involving the right to bear arms was inserted.

    The US also has a long tradition of respecting the liberties of its citizens and gives prosecutors broad discretion.

    It’s all a very complicated and subtle balancing act in which all rights are, in certain degrees, circumscribed. The most famous illustration being the proscription that disallows yelling “fire” in a crowded theater unless there really is one. Likewise all powers and liberties are to some degree or another, limited, and the constant judicial dialog should remind all of this.

    A good deal of this give and take is incomprehensible to the binary mind of the totalitarians. And, the totalitarian mind is ever with us. We, as a free citizenry of a republic framed on the federal model, know this, giving citizens broad latitude; even giving non-citizens, on occasion, the right to express themselves without fear. This is because we know how to take the temperature of the political atmosphere and trim our sails accordingly.

    And, this also is incomprehensible to the totalitarian, binary mind. The free citizen is comfortable with subtlety and some ambiguity. The totalitarian is not.

    We know that it is necessary in our foreign policy as well. Sometimes we must accept some ambiguity in allies, for example, the promulgation of Wahhabism in a strategic partner because we know that we have no permanent friends, just permanent interests. When the time comes a formerly strategic ally will, in its turn be given a choice, as Saddam was given a choice, and will bear the consequences or fruits of those actions. And, again, the totalitarian mind will find this incomprehensible gibberish.

    Even the totalitarians among us are tolerated as long as they do not pose active threat to the polity. And, yet again, they do not understand this, taking it as a sign of weakness or fear. A prominent illustration of this lack of understanding can be found in their reactions to the political phenomena currently known as the Neo-Con movement.

    Neo-cons, those refusing to drink the poison Koolaid of the totalitarian left, are attacked relentlessly as apostates lest their thinking infect others. the totalitarian mind sees some ideas as virulent germs that must be scrubbed out. When their scrubbing becomes a little too vigorous they find themselves; in the case of blogs, scrubbed out themselves.

    The totalitarian Left understands none of this. All of the delicate balancing of a free citizenry is lost on them. They are like insects, programmed with a few simple patterns, doomed to repeat those patterns over and over, even when they don’t work. They’ll never understand insecticides, the swatter or the heel when their infestations pass a certain threshold and they are liable to the methods of control. And, like, for example ants, they will find openings to re-infest until the openings are sealed.
    At a certain point the totalitarian mind is programmed in a recursive loop at that point they are lost to political dialog and yet we persist because we never really like to acknowledge that a soul is ever lost or irredeemable.

    There is something comforting in that thought. Even here we constantly engage them and they constantly reject the engagement. They’re lost souls, wandering in the wilderness, but we keep shouting to help them find the way.

    Sorry for the length of this and sorry for the inevitable reaction of the totalitarian trolls. They’re chained to their oars, ears full of wax.

  30. neoneoconned Says:

    so..

    1. why not attack saudi instead of all the other places if they are the ones you are so mad at.

    and

    2. - We’re also tired of having some real concerns we have, like uncontrolled immigration that depresses wages and other issues about the direction this country is headed ignored by the DC slime. We know that GWB is an empty suit owned by interests and is a Saudi bumboy. But, since, right now, security is uppermost on our minds we’ve been willing to overlook his shortcomings. We are a patient people but our patience is wearing thin.

    And we’ve been sh*t on a lot lately. It’s well past time we put some fear on the bastards in DC and some state capitols. But, we’re also pretty smart in that we know that our biggest asset is the fear we can instill when we get pissed off.

    when are you turning yourself in?

  31. Senescent Wasp Says:

    In re: Khobar Towers.

    On June 25, 1996, Iran again attacked America at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, exploding a huge truck bomb that devastated Khobar Towers and murdered 19 U.S. airmen as they rested in their dormitory.

    Quote in above link, LOUIS J. FREEH, Former Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation.

    Iranian terrorists bombed Khobar Towers with non official support of Saudi citizens aligned with al Queda.

  32. Senescent Wasp Says:

    Relevant Section of US Code 18, Part 1:Chapter 115 para 2385:

    Advocating Overthrow of Government>Advocating Overthrow of Government

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
    If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

  33. neoneoconned Says:

    woah sally has learned parody and mrswhatsit is developing paranoia – although it is actually a good argument. but i can assure you none of them are me. Ask neo to check the IP’s…….hmm i think mine says i live in Iran, although i have lost track of them a bit – no it is Bogota Columbia

    and sally you are really not meant to be talking to me however witty your ripostes.

  34. neoneoconned Says:

    oh well more stuff from Quartermaster Putrescent Wasp (retd) It will pass the time until the football starts again.

    hmmm the point of the penultimate comment was?

    Saudis keep killing Americans?

    …on the subject of prosecution do you think that people who threaten to overthrow the federal authorities should be prosecuted?

  35. MrsWhatsit Says:

    I am trying to respect Neo’s don’t-feed-the-trolls wishes, and it’s so pointless to “discuss” anything with them that generally, I’m content to wait until she gets her changes made. But on this thread, I do want to point out the flock of brand-new troll posts that arrived under various different names all at once — Natasha, Charlemagne, “happy warrior” (no way that one’s genuine, sorry)– my guess, people, is that these are all the same person and that person is a resident troll.

    Take this, for example, from “Charlemagne”:

    Something that I think would happen within the next ten years or so: at the rate that tuition is going up in US universities, higher education will start to get outsourced at some point to places like India (which have plenty of English-speaking professors willing to work at cheap rates). Universitites will be forced tooutsource to India and US students will spend 4 years in India learning from Indian professors.

    I will confidently bet that the person who wrote this 1) does not live in the United States and 2) knows zilch about college education in this country. The first big clue is the use of the word “university” as the generic descriptor for post-secondary education. Nobody who lives in the United States uses that terminology. American usage is to say “college” when we mean to talk about the larger world of post-secondary education, and “university” only when we mean to talk about institutions that fit within our specific definition of that term. The generic use of “university” where we would say “college” is a British usage — and, oddly enough, an Australian one. Hmm.

    Also, anyone who could imagine that within 10 years, American families would be sending kids to India to avoid the high cost of college education here does not know the first thing about the private/public structure of American education, the financial aid system, or, most importantly, the fierce and growing protectiveness of the typical American family sending a child off to college right now and the intense focus of such families on the perceived value of a “status” degree. The chance that such a family would see India, with its “cheap” professors (!!) as a better educational destination for their 18-year-old child than, say, a private college with good merit/need aid or the state university system, or that the current “helicopter parent” approach to secondary education could change that much in 10 years is, well, zero.

    Outsourcing is a real issue in many industries, of course, but if it is ever going to affect college education in the United States, it is not going to happen in this generation. Nobody who lives here would suggest such a thing. This post is the work of a person from somewhere else who read a headline about rising tuitions in the US, knows nothing else about post-secondary education here, jumped to the rest of his conclusions, and has no problem with making know-it-all comments about subjects he completely fails to understand. Oh, yes, and he’s from Britain or a British colony.

    Connect the dots . . . and don’t bother to engage.

  36. Sally Says:

    Hey, good one spotting “thanotos” there conned — maybe you should get a job as a proof reader? Oh, but … “lets”? “coment”? Maybe not. But I’m sure there’s something you can do.

    Neo!?!? Neeooo, they’re being mean to me again!! Can’t you make them stop, neeooo? Are these “people” supposed to be your friends, neeoo?! Do you want me to call you a racist again, neo? Because i will unless you scold them, neeoo. Do you want to get trolled, neo? i will, i really will, i’ll troll, unless….

    Oh well. enjoy.

  37. Senescent Wasp Says:

    From Patterico:

    One of the podcast topics:

    A Shorter Argument for Prosecuting Reporters From the NYT and the LAT

  38. Senescent Wasp Says:

    June 25, 1996
    Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia

    Killed
    Captain Christopher Adams
    Technical Sergeant Daniel B. Cafourek
    Sergeant Millard D. Campbell
    Senior Airman Earl R. Cartrette Jr
    Captain Leland Haun
    Technical Sergeant Patrick P. Fennig
    Master Sergeant Michael G. Heiser
    Staff Sergeant Kevin Johnson
    Sergeant Ronald King
    Master Sergeant Kendall K. Kitson
    Airman 1st Class Christopher Lester
    Airman 1st Class Brent E. Marthaler
    Airman 1st Class Brian W. McVeigh
    Airman 1st Class Peter W. Morgera
    Technical Sergeant Thanh V. Nguyen
    Sr. Airman Jeremy A. Taylor
    Airman 1st Class Joseph E. Rimkus
    Airman 1st Class Justin Wood
    Airman 1st Class Joshua E. Woody

    Never Forgive. Never Forget

  39. neoneoconned Says:

    Real combat veterans rarely talk about that kind of thing; it’s tasteless.

    hmmm… so how come your big mouth is always flapping away in the wind?

    and Sally it is spelled Thanatos and i will think you may find that neo has told you not to talk to me so you had better do what you are told. And, lets face it, most of it is well out of your spelling range. Mind you there is a real talent for bitchy little coments in you.

    enjoy

    ….by their friends shall ye know them neo and you have some beauties.

  40. Senescent Wasp Says:

    Conned are you trolling for killers now? Recruiting?

    There are a several veterans here; some may even have seen combat. If you’re looking for stories like that you should go to what ever passes for an American Legion Post where you live. In the bar there will usually be some one willing to tell you combat stories of killing and maiming if that gets you off. Problem is they will probably have been cooks or clerks. Real combat veterans rarely talk about that kind of thing; it’s tasteless.

    BTW the person with the palm sap was a credentialed Federal officer running CI operations in violence prone groups.

  41. Sally Says:

    Whiney, isn’t he?

    Let’s see if I can write his next comment:

    I see you lot would rather whine about whiners than debate. So it goes. Something to think about. Well, neo? Do you approve of people calling other people whiners? Or are you just a racist? A racist cheerleader? For death? You know — thanotos? Well, neo? Neo? Hello?

    Brown shirts! Brown shirts! [no wait, that was the other one]

  42. neoneoconned Says:

    yeah well you are probably too old and putrescent for therapy to do any good.

    I’m sure glad nobody has to walk home in the dark from here. The Left has a bad reputation for physical re-education. One night they jumped the wrong person. They’d never seen a palm sap before.

    it is a right collection of violence enthusiasts you have here neo. Which one do you think will actually be the first to kill?

    My money is on yrmdwnkr as he feels a strong need to live up to something.

    If you have any sense you might start handing out a bit of advice to these wannabe psychopaths before the laptop fantasy gets out of hand.

    But no, you would rather spend your time getting annoyed about “trolls”.

    so it goes

  43. Senescent Wasp Says:

    Conned, just a reminder not to feign a horror of violence. We both know All political power grows out of the barrel of a gun

    Mousey Dung,
    Cited in, “Favorite Sayings of the Left”.

  44. Senescent Wasp Says:

    Conned, do you do anything with that pie hole other than run it?

    Gonna love to see moderation and IP blocking around here so we can plan the world takeover in peace without the buzzing of annoying insects.

    I notice an upturn in the troll population. It must have something to do with the Left’s tolerance for apostasy. People like Neo who turn from the True Faith must be handed over to the kommisars for a nice long stretch in the gulag. Until then turning up the knob on the Leftist Noise Distortion and Noise Machine will have to suffice. After all, the kommisars are not endlessly patient.

    Reminds me of watching the Trots take over groups. By I’m sure glad nobody has to walk home in the dark from here. The Left has a bad reputation for physical re-education. One night they jumped the wrong person. They’d never seen a palm sap before.

  45. neoneoconned Says:

    We not be as sheltered as ye think.

    yeah if they live in your neighbourhood you are aware of them……hmmmmm

    see you lot have found yourselves another troll. My these pesky people coming on here and disagreeing how it riles you. If you are so keen on democracy and grown up can you not find a way to deal with dissenters? Well no because you have the authoritarian streak in you that makes you so right wing.

    As for whoever made thecomment does the group think apply to both left and right – well unfortuanately yes it does, you can hear the same predictable troll nonsense on many sites and it is harmful. As i said above we are heading for narrow casting to the converted with people like “neo” in the role of pied piper.

    To you lot she is a hero of free speech to me she is a mildly racist, nationalist, cheerleader for death with an increasingly authoritarian tone.

    I might be wrong but I am certainly entitled to argue it particularly given how dangerous the application of the foreign policies she supports is.

    ..and finally read your own coments. If you spent as much time arguing substantive points as you do shouting troll! everytime someone has the temerity to disagree the whole thing might be more impressive.

    ..oh and yrmdwnkr, it is not a good thing to break down the barriers on your violence. Violence is not big or clever get some therapy man before you do something stupid. And neo if you really are a therapist you should not be passively encouraging his violence – talk to the guy for god’s sake.

  46. Senescent Wasp Says:

    From an odd little motel sitting practically on top of the San Andres Fault.

    In Re: Stahl/Albright 5-12-96. This is the Clinton Administration’s mouth speaking. Their foreign policy was not renown for its’ “efficiency”. q.v. no armor for the Somalia Mission.

    The reason the food was not getting to the “little chillrin” was that the Sunni kleptocracy was stealing the money allocated to food and medicine with the connivance of the UN kleptocrats who had their muzzles buried in the “Food for Oil” trough.

    This is discredited Leftist Meme 96-331-A4 from The Golden Book of Leftist Lies and distortions.

  47. Wickedpinto Says:

    No Offense.

    You sounded like an older lady who is unfamiliar with being in the “national” mind, even on a podcast.

    I don’t have a problem with that, but, I was a little disappointed that as soon as you developed strength in your voice, and thereby your own confidence, you didn’t ONCE put forth your own opinions conflidently and clearly.

    Thats not necessarily a bad thing, but, I figured you could have handled it first time. I trust you will on the second.

    Not everyone is adaptable to the FIRST expression of broad expression, and, actually it makes me MUCH MUCH more sypathetic to you than your clear recursive logic as to why you explain yoru “conservativism,” hearing your voice shows that you are NOT! a fascist, but rather an active politcal player who can’t understand the current liberal ideaology.

    I explained so far as best I can at the moment.

    I tend to go outright crazy after midnight, I will read the comments in the morning.

    Night NEO, you sounded fine, and you sounded serious, but you did not sound articulate, though I know you are MUCH more articulate than I.

  48. Charlemagne Says:

    With 55 0f the top hundred Universities situated in the US, I don’t think we’ll be doing the outsourcing.

    You’re forgetting that the reason why outsourcing happens has little to do with quality and everything to do with price. Walmart’s shelves are stocked with products made in China not because the Chinese make higher-quality products, but because they make them cheaply.

    The point is that undergraduate tuition has been rising very steeply at US universities, making going to college increasingly difficult financially. Of course the top US universities will continue to attract international students, as will graduate schools for specialized education. But my prediction is that the standard 4-year undergraduate degree education is on the way to be outsourced within a few years. (Take an analogy: Specialized, custom-made software is still written in the US and will continue to be, while run-of-the-mill, generic software is increasingly outsourced. The same thing holds for education as well.)

  49. Ariel Says:

    Charles the Great,

    With 55 0f the top hundred Universities situated in the US, I don’t think we’ll be doing the outsourcing. Thirty years ago in engineering, i was running with Persians, Chinese (Taiwan), and others in a podunk University. There are even more foreign students now than before, many of them Indian.

    My neighborhood has Russian and Ukrainian emigres. And I finished talking to an Iranian just a half hour ago, first time, he introduced himself as Persian. I teased him for that. And I am still trying to track down an Iraqi friend of mine but have been unsuccessful so far.

    We not be as sheltered as ye think.

  50. Goesh Says:

    -and getting back to hearing Neo’s voice, I know you can dance but I don’t recall you saying if you are a singer or were a singer too? I realize this is not as much fun as troll-baiting and having sport with them but,”…the voice of Neo-Neocon is heard in the land”….?

  51. Charlemagne Says:

    Sally said:

    “US sanctions” against Iraq??

    I thought they were UN sanctions, Charlie? Weren’t they UN sanctions? I’m pretty sure they were UN sanctions.

    Sally,

    The sanctions were imposed by the U.N. Security Council on August 6, 1990, i.e. right after Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait.

    The economic sanctions remained in place thereafter, even though it was clear that the sanctions were having no effect whatever in terms of removing Saddam Hussein from power. (As you yourself pointed out, Saddam, being totally unconcerned with Iraqi lives, couldn’t care less that so many innocent children and ordinary Iraqis were dying on account of the economic sanctions). So, increasingly large sections of people around the world started calling for lifting or easing of the sanctions, seeing that the sanctions were only hurting and killing ordinary Iraqis and not hurting Saddam one bit.

    But the US, and its sidekick, the UK, made clear that it would block lifting or easing of sanctions as long as Saddam remained in power. As you know, the US has veto power in the Security Council, and can veto or block any decision taken by the Security Council, such as the decision to lift or ease sanctions.

    So you had a peculiar situation: children and ordinary Iraqis were dying in Iraq because of the sanctions, the sanctions weren’t hurting Saddam at all, and yet the US wasn’t going to allow the sanctions to be lifted.

    That’s what I was referring to:

    Lesley Stahl to Madeleine Albright on U.S. sanctions against Iraq (on “60 Minutes”, Dec 5, 1996):

    “We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”

    Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.”

    –”60 Minutes” (December 5, 1996)
    As cited in: Freedom Daily,
    http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401b.asp

  52. Sally Says:

    But it will be devastating for the neocons and others similarly cut off from reality.

    Unless of course it’s the people ironically named “liberals” and/or absurdly labelled “progressives” who are cut off from reality, and it’s — surprise! — the neocons who are the true reality-based community.

    But broad slurs and mere assetions of blinkered, bigoted sentiments are not argument, and so I’ll stop at this point. I’d hoped Charlie might actually be one of those open to genuine debate — instead, he’s content to slavishly echo the the inane, predictable, and boringly familiar “thoughts” of a common troll. We’ve heard it before, Charlie. You’d do better playing with toys.

  53. Sally Says:

    “US sanctions” against Iraq??

    I thought they were UN sanctions, Charlie? Weren’t they UN sanctions? I’m pretty sure they were UN sanctions.

    I guess you’re saying, though, that the rest of the world can and should be held hostage by any tyrant willing to hold a gun to the heads of his own people and their children. Interesting policy, and I suppose to a sufficiently weak mind it can even appear to be a “moral” one — until the rest of the world’s aspiring tyrants, psychopaths and thugs catch on how easy it is to put one over on the feeble “leaders” of the rest of the world.

  54. Weary G Says:

    Wow,

    I am beginning to understand Neo’s posts regarding Trolls from a few days back, and why it was becoming a concern for her.

    I just scimmed most of what was written in this current thread because , quite frankly, I see a whole of trash going on. I thought there was room for honest debate regarding the issues posted, and I gave it a shot on a couple of previous threads.

    However, I am seeing alot of inflammatory claptrap here. The few reasonable voices here are drowning in a sea of boilerplate and angry spittle.

    I am beginning to remember why I stopped reading comment threads. People complain when certain cites don’t have them, or keep them behind registration, but I understand why now.

    Neo-neocon, I understand your earnest request for people to stop feeding the Trolls, but its gotten beyond that. It looks like they are feeding one another at this point. For myself, I think I’ll need to stick to reading your posts alone.

    For those of you who consider themselves so well-informed, brilliant and needing to write immense posts, why not start your own blog, or would that require too much thought and effort?

    Flame away, because I ain’t going to be reading it. I have better things to do.

    Neo, I love your work, please keep it up.

  55. Charlemagne Says:

    Sally wrote:

    What would those consequences be, in your imagination, Charlie? I mean, you’re not making a racist point here, are you?

    Not at all. The consequences I was pointing to is this: as I mentioned previously, many in this country (the neocons like many in this forum, for example), live in this coccooned, self-referential world, which is curiously cut off from reality and oblivious to what is going on in the rest of the world and to world opinion.

    Now, when the time comes when higher education gets outsourced and a large number of US students are forced to spend 4 years in another country learning from professors in another country, they will get a wonderfully new perspective about the world and about reality, so that the neocon trick of shutting out the real world and living in a fanciful make-believe self-referential world will become increasingly difficult to pull off on young minds who have lived and learned in a foreign country and studied with professors who have, in many cases, a perspective completely different from what they are used to.

    The consequences, in other words, would be good and salutary for the USA and USians. But it will be devastating for the neocons and others similarly cut off from reality.

  56. Sally Says:

    Charle: Universitites will be forced tooutsource to India and US students will spend 4 years in India learning from Indian professors.

    Imagine the consequences of that.

    What would those consequences be, in your imagination, Charlie? I mean, you’re not making a racist point here, are you?

    I think he might be, folks, inadvertantly revealing the undercurrent of real racism that underlies much of contemporary left liberalism. You can see the same thing in his mentor, conned, by the way.

  57. Charlemagne Says:

    Ymarsakar wrote:

    I do not believe I will hate terrorism, the murderer of children, and all those thugocracies any less in 30 years than now.

    Lesley Stahl to Madeleine Albright on U.S. sanctions against Iraq (on “60 Minutes”, Dec 5, 1996):

    “We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”

    Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.”

    –”60 Minutes” (December 5, 1996)
    As quoted in: Freedom Daily,
    http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401b.asp

  58. Sally Says:

    Charle: It’s a self-referential world — fully consistent internally, but with a curious disjunction from reality.

    Sorry, was that the left or the right you were talking about?

  59. Charlemagne Says:

    Natasha wrote:

    Wait up till the super-power ends up as a super-boob as China and India gobble up everything American,at dirt cheap rates. Dont believe me doya??

    Something that I think would happen within the next ten years or so: at the rate that tuition is going up in US universities, higher education will start to get outsourced at some point to places like India (which have plenty of English-speaking professors willing to work at cheap rates). Universitites will be forced tooutsource to India and US students will spend 4 years in India learning from Indian professors.

    Imagine the consequences of that. It will be a very, very interesting time.

  60. Charlemagne Says:

    neoneoconned wrote:

    Well i listened to this nonsense and it left me wondering if this whole blogging business is a dangerously divisive enterprise. It seems to me that what is developing are groups of people who agree with each other mutually supporting the group-think of that faction. The web could be the end of broadcasting and the rise of a narrow cast to competing groups.

    This blog provides a great example of this. Whatever happens you give a predictable right wing response and the other, increasingly violent cheerleaders for death, join in. There are then the dismal links to other right wing sites and the careful process of quoting out of context of perceived “left-liberal” sites.

    The end point of all this neo-con nonsense will be a series of wars. The USA will win all of these in open battle but they will create an increasing number of “asymmetric” – terrorist type situations.

    And the route to this is paved with the kind of low level racism, ignorance of the world outside the USA, nationalism and militarism neo exhibits in every posting. The real motivation for it is US economic supremacy and neo tries to provide an ideological justification for this. Commentators such as putrescent wasp and yrmdwnkr give us an unvarnished version of the neo-con approach which neo constantly fails to criticise as she probably, more or less agrees with them.

    Exactly — I hadn’t checked out any right-wing/neocon blogs before, and this one and the freerepublic blogs were the first (and only) ones I checked out. It’s like a parallel universe out here. They also have their own publishing houses, did you notice, which sell books from a predictably neocon/right-wing perspective, which they then cite as references. It’s a self-referential world — fully consistent internally, but with a curious disjunction from reality.

  61. Sally Says:

    Ymar: Balance is the key, if you go too far to acid or base, you will get burned chemically.

    And metaphorically. Okay, good point.

    Given that point, I was tempted to take conned up on his PNAC bait, by the way, but then I remembered how he wimped out of the “racism” argument, yet continues to throw the slur around, and resisted.

    But then you say this, speaking to Ariel:

    Perhaps you feel uncomfortable when you see people like me, because you’d favor a more amenable and reasonable conduct towards violence. Are you afraid of your capacity for violence and for enjoying the destruction of your enemies? That’s society speaking, and the bonds society places upon us is dependent upon what kind of person we are. If we are violent psychopaths like McVeigh, well then, societal boundaries are not very effective.

    And what does that mean, that McVeigh is a good model of what you’re aiming for for yourself — the elimination of “societal boundaries”? All I can say is that I hope not.

    Why would I hope not? Do you think that’s just some sort of liberal squeamishness? No, it’s because societal boundaries are part of what make a society possible at all. And even if you think of yourself as some sort of Neitzschean superman, or aspire to that, you still need a society, without which you’re just a “poor, bare, forked animal”. That is, without a moral sanction — which is simply another facet or aspect of societal boundaries — violence just makes you weaker, not stronger.

  62. Ymarsakar Says:

    I’m just replying as I read the comments. So Sally and Ariel’s responses are staggered according to when they made their comments, in chronological order.

    You keep it going by playing directly. Simple as that. Its a game you only lose.

    I don’t play that game. I might have started some back and forth going on, but I tried to minimize the space it took up after I saw how many comments I wrote and how hard it was to find any specific comment I wanted.

    So I made the decision to instead of point by point talk and discourse, I engaged in summarization and logical premise analysis.

    We can disagree on assassination, which we of course do. So that’s an issue removed from the subject.

    However, I do bring up the point that is relevant to what neo said and what I said about neo’s standards. Neo standards, are not just about trolls, but it is also about not using gratuitous curse words F*** or other gratuitous insults.

    You can see my response about individualism mattering more than any narrow characteristic of blogs, as feeding the trolls, but I’d prefer to see it as giving information to the audience so that people know what the arguments and what the counter-arguments are.

    I believe I’ve demonstrated self-restraint on this blog through the time I’ve been here. If people ask me questions via insults, I don’t answer them or engage in any substantial or lengthy manner. I am disappointed that people are unable to control themselves in talking to others, but their conduct is in their hands, not mine. I can only control my behavior, not anyone else’s.

    I’ve seen agent provacateur behavior before, but it was usally a one time or a short time deal. However, some people seem to have attached themselves to this blog, so that even if you don’t talk to them, they will quote pieces of stuff other commentators write and get in on the discussion that way. And it works, since there are so many commentators here that are more or less regulars.

    I’m not disagreeing with neo’s recommendations about agent provacateurs, but I do recognize that there are substantial problems in the details. The situation as it exists now, for complete disengagement from agent provacateurs, we’d have to basically resist the temptation everytime we read a comment or read a new thread-post. It’s similar to the defense strategy. It has to be 100% or else bad things happen, while the attackers can succede once and they’ll win.

    I liked reading Ariel’s earlier work to Confude, as well as Kcom’s, because it used reason, logic, and rationality. It made sense. It was talking about subjects that were independent of the existence of agent provacateurs and what not. However, the most recent comments of Ariel, were different. And I presume that Ariel agrees.

    The point, however, Ymar, isn’t that you should “live in fear of making a comment” — the point is just that you should recognize when you’re being manipulated to suit someone else’s agenda.

    I mean it in the sense that it is an anti-troll policy problem. Taking my specific example, I would not have made my comment the way it was if I had not read Conned’s post about comformity, since that gave me the idea. Thus I am supposed to ignore the method by which I came to do what I do? That seems overly deceptive and clouded. Balance is the key, if you go too far to acid or base, you will get burned chemically. Thus, you shouldn’t embroil yourself into a meaningless argument here, but neither should you or I ignore things that are worthwhile just because we fear to engage the agent provacateurs or say something that might refer to them. Fear is not preferable to rage and rage is not preferable to fear. Serenity, cold hard rationality, that is my preference at least.

    I do not believe I am guilty of not recognizing when I am being manipulated. I’ve tried to distance myself emotionally, and even logically since I no longer use logic but some sort of.. fabricated reasoning in if I am speaking directly to Confude or Conned. Ymar fabricated it, he’s good at that.

    If you chase after every pointless comment made by a troll, regardless of how it bears upon a topic of conversation, then you’re just letting yourself be used, whether or not you’re aware of it.

    I use what I can get. I do what I can do. I don’t chase after every pointless comment made by a troll, and I can’t make others avoid doing that as well. They can stop themselves, and they know it.

    Ariel – But you’ll likely feel and think differently 30 years from now.

    You mean about assassination? The price of killing I have learned peripherally. Related to it, I actually learned lately in recent terms, that there is a societal barrier that has been indoctrinated into my core beliefs, that somehow prevent me from acting violently if I am not angry. Very powerful, I had not realized this until I had actually tried to summon the violence up. After I realized, I also realized another thing, that the limits placed on my ability to do violence is not powered by society or any kind of “liberal brainwashing” (although that contributed). Rather it was due to my core beliefs, I never believed in violence as a way to solve things, independent of what the media taught me. I was a non-violent kind of guy, I would warn people that their glue bottle was dripping onto their paper because it was the right thing to do, even if they later accused me in front of the teacher of doing it myself. Since I didn’t speak English back then, it was hard to defend myself, I learned a certain stoicism. Take the punishment, and it’ll go away.

    I’ve been dismantling this rather prohibitive restraint on my violent impulses piece by piece, from the conscious mind down to the subconscious. Perhaps you come from experience in the opposite direction. Why am I dismantling my non-violent core beliefs? Because, they are preventing me from doing what I believe is necessary, and anything that prevents me from becoming better and more able to do what is necessary, I hate with a ferocity that is as cold as it is complete and undeniable.

    Perhaps you feel uncomfortable when you see people like me, because you’d favor a more amenable and reasonable conduct towards violence. Are you afraid of your capacity for violence and for enjoying the destruction of your enemies? That’s society speaking, and the bonds society places upon us is dependent upon what kind of person we are. If we are violent psychopaths like McVeigh, well then, societal boundaries are not very effective.

    I do not believe I will hate terrorism, the murderer of children, and all those thugocracies any less in 30 years than now. That reads to me, like “Zarqawi will hate America less after 30 years of jihad”. Maybe, maybe not. For me, not.


    Neo doesn’t want us to feed the trolls because you aren’t actually engaging in a real argument when you do.

    Well, like I explained, I’m not arguing with Conned, I’m presenting a good argument for the benefit of people like Sally, to show them my position and beliefs and my arguments. I’ve seen and read Confude’s comments since the moment he stepped onto this blog, I was the first person to give him the benefit of the doubt when he kicked my olive branch away. I think I understand what neo says when she says there is no “real argument” with those people. You’re preaching to the choir here, Ariel.

    I don’t do it to people who argue sincerely, with give and take.

    I do not believe that you do it to people who argue sincerely, and it really doesn’t matter to me one way or another in the sense of if I dont like it, I’ll not read it. I only quote your comments to Confude, to make the point that I consider it becoming bad and that I should stop, if I get to the level where I’m emotionally out of control and insulting them for pleasure. That’s like killing people and enjoying it, you start to understand there’s something wrong, and you need to stop like right now.

    I believe you also have that right, but I know when it’s pointless and I know whose house I am in. My momentary breach was addressed in that last post you didn’t read.

    I believe I have the privilege of posting comments here, under Neo’s guidelines. Her guidelines being don’t gratuitously insult people, don’t F*** them out, and etc. The last post at National security? I just read that now.


    Conned’s last two posts are simply more examples of the use of those tools. Analyze them and you’ll see what I mean.

    I skipped them. I do that a lot. You want me to read them? Sorry, no can do.

    Nat,

    Wait up till the super-power ends up as a super-boob as China and India gobble up everything American,at dirt cheap rates. Dont believe me doya??

    I believe you, but China will take about 500 years to supersede us assuming they do eventually (Historically Empires last 500 to 1000 years, Rome being one of the longest Empires). And India? India’s our pal, our comrade in arms, our battle brother, you think they’re going to kick us out of the house? hehe, no way H.

  63. neoneoconned Says:

    I am, unlike George Bush (or any male of the Bush family, for that matter) a Jacksonian:

    The whole point of Jacksonianism is “You leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone. You play fair with me and I’ll play fair with you. But if you fuck with me, I’ll kill you.”

    trouble is that usa does not leave others alone or play fair.

    And it was me and not confud who provided the summary of your unpleasant work of which you, and neo are so proud.

  64. Senescent Wasp Says:

    Posted from the a mountain top with a wireless phone card that can hit a cell phone tower six miles away. Amazing. But not as amazing as spending an hour watching a wild turkey family feed and drink.

    I’d like to thank Fudd for the highlights reel, “I Just Love the Smell of Invective In the Morning”. I came to the top thread because I liked the podcast and what do I find? Fudd tattling to Teacher.

    Will somebody explain to the creature about Jacksonian’s? I’ll post this link. I’m trying not to run the laptop’s battery down to far.

    Saw a condor this afternoon using the flyway to Monterey County. Lazy carrion eater, using free thermal lift; extinct without government intervention and support. Pregnant with implications, that is.

  65. the happy warrior Says:

    bliss is when we take over the whole deal. Like it or not the US is the strongest and has won the right to tell the rest what to do. Fortunate that we are such freedom loving types

  66. natasha Says:

    Only in America,can people afford to take their silliness to such extremeties.
    Necons are no different than the Nazis, The Neo-Nazis, The Klansmen, and the Bushies of the day. They all must pass and will just as George and his pack in 2009. Even if they Neos succeed in getting another Republican in, the world wont stand for it. Its time you folks syop thinking that the world with a population of six billion is an easily-dispensable unnecessary appendage to a land of 150 Miliion Neocons and 140 Million level headed Americans. Wait up till the super-power ends up as a super-boob as China and India gobble up everything American,at dirt cheap rates. Dont believe me doya??

    See there is the blessing. Ignorance is BLISS..

  67. Cappy Says:

    I look forward to the filtering of trolls on this blog. Neo is not providing a party for trash like Confud to crash. They can whine to the MSM

  68. Ariel Says:

    Neo,

    Thanks for the link to Marc Cooper, which also leads to Michael Berube, an interesting leftist.

  69. neoneoconned Says:

    ok then ariel what has your comment to do with the subject of this thread? Nothing.

    But if you want to ignore me fine. that is your right.

  70. Sally Says:

    PS: Just wanted to say thanks for the tip re: the interview, neo. FWIW, you’re sultry enough to suit me, also well-spoken.

    From a fellow “cheer-leader for death”(!), etc.

  71. neoneoconned Says:

    I think the PNAC statement is quite good in itself too now i know you dont want to talk to an evil person like me but are you serious? Do you agree that

    American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle.

    and what on earth are you planning on doing with this leadership? And what about those of us who do not care to be led?

  72. Ariel Says:

    Ymar,

    If I were speaking, my tone would be gentle, slightly reproachful, as a much older man to a younger man. I’ve done all this before, long ago. I read Clausewitz, Sun-Tzu, and even Musashi before you were in kindergarten. I was sending 5″ rounds into targets before you were born. I was arguing fascism, communism, and all the rest before you were born. Given what you’ve written about yourself, you’ve come a long way. And that is something to be proud of. But you’ll likely feel and think differently 30 years from now.

    Neo doesn’t want us to feed the trolls because you aren’t actually engaging in a real argument when you do. I actually used little or no insults against Fudd until after I had him frothing at the mouth. Thats what I used to do to people who were the predecessors to today’s troll. I indulged myself in an evil pleasure with Fudd, I admitted it even as I did it. I don’t do it to people who argue sincerely, with give and take.

    Of course Fudd and Conned “believe” you have the right to talk to anyone, even if it goes against the blogger’s wishes, because it feeds them. I believe you also have that right, but I know when it’s pointless and I know whose house I am in. My momentary breach was addressed in that last post you didn’t read.

    The “no rules” they espouse should be a dead give away. Every logical fallacy, every sophistry, every insult, every disrespect is thus a tool on their belt. Nothing is gained, nothing is learned, from them. The knowledge you gain trying to argue back can be had without indulging them. Don’t involve them.

    Conned’s last two posts are simply more examples of the use of those tools. Analyze them and you’ll see what I mean. Much was out of context, and he graciously left out the part he played in those responses.

    Sally put it quite succinctly.

    Anyway, Neo has reiterated her policy. I’m going to abide by it. Besides, I disagree with enough here to keep it lively. Although, I may get my feelings hurt.:-)

  73. Sally Says:

    much as it pains me to do this yrmdwnkr is right.

    Aww, now isn’t that cute — those two, together at last!

    The point, however, Ymar, isn’t that you should “live in fear of making a comment” — the point is just that you should recognize when you’re being manipulated to suit someone else’s agenda. If you chase after every pointless comment made by a troll, regardless of how it bears upon a topic of conversation, then you’re just letting yourself be used, whether or not you’re aware of it.

    That said, I thought your comment about indivdiualism was quite good in itself. (And by the way — violating my own point above — I think the PNAC statement is quite good in itself too.)

  74. neoneoconned Says:

    in neo speak

    opposition = troll

    cowardly action will kill off debate. The whole thing will become a dreary neo-con love in.

    ..a mind is difficult to change

  75. neo-neocon Says:

    As I’ve said before, I don’t have the time to police every comment on this blog. And yet I value comments–I believe the comments section here is a very important part of the whole blog. And of course everyone here is free to comment or not comment, as you wish.

    That said–yes, I have requested that people refrain from feeding the trolls. And yes, every response to a troll is feeding that troll, unfortunately. That’s the way it works.

    I am going to change the system here. But, as I said before, it will require some time and effort. My best guess is that it will occur some time next week.

  76. Ariel Says:

    Ymar,

    The tone it down was on assassination, which is not an appropriate method. It just isn’t.

    Neo had asked us not to feed the trolls. That was what the request to reread was about. We both are violating her wishes and its her blog. As for insults, conned’s and fudd’s every reply is laced with some insult, even after the ones they anger have calmed down . You keep it going by playing directly. Simple as that. Its a game you only lose.

  77. neoneoconned Says:

    much as it pains me to do this yrmdwnkr is right. He can say what he likes about who the hell he likes. I profoundly disagree with more or less everything he says but….

    The point I made about blogs being divisive is a serious one and this whole trolls nonsense is part of it. A blanket refusal to take the views of others seriously – to find an excuse to dismiss them.

    I do not expect to change your minds as I am sure you have thought a great deal about what you say – but i am entitled to say I think it is nationalistic, racist etc etc.

    I do think that narrow groups blogging in agreement are a waste of time and can only lead to trouble.

    The truth is that there are many ways to view the world. but the neo-con one is inherently dangerous.

  78. Ymarsakar Says:

    If people need help connecting the dots, then I make the observation that individualism is really the whole point of blogging and the Army of Davids. Individualualism… not comformity. Comformity also applies to Neo’s reference to changing one’s philosophy or beliefs.

    And Ariel tells me I should not make responses to Conned when Conned was the one who (pardon the language) inspired the idea of individualism in the first place?

    Well i listened to this nonsense and it left me wondering if this whole blogging business is a dangerously divisive enterprise.

    Tell me again I should not make a comment about the value of individualism in response to the anti-divisiveness position of comformisists. It is not a valid argument.

    Keeping quiet about it is acceding to uniform comformity, and if you read my links ariel, you will see the reasoning for why that is a bad thing.

  79. Ymarsakar Says:

    I don’t agree. I’m not here to read insults, but I’m also not here to live in fear of making a comment just because I said something to someone I shouldn’t have.

    In the case you mentioned Ariel, you recommended to me to tone it down. Now I made a specific response to that. However, my initial response to your tone it down remark, was to make note of that if you wanted to tone things down, look towards yourself. Thus it was not me dictating to you who you should speak to, but rather pointing out the logic of your own words.

    I have no need nor desire to go reread something I have already made a good response to. I don’t like to read insults, and that was my primary contention with any criticisms I levered. I don’t do back and forths without considering the consequences. I do independent analysis since i prefer it. Conned gave me a reason and a pretext to provide good information and content on things that are beneficial, you should read some of that Ariel before saying I shouldn’t have made the comment.

    Checkmate you silly little fool.
    Look at what you’ve written. You’re way too easy to minipulate, I eschewed this for years as to guilty a pleasure but now its time. And you go on and on….

    I don’t believe that people should not talk to trolls if they are curious. Curiosity should not be limited. However, gross distorted comments via continuous insult barrage reproduction should be limited. For the sake of the readership if not for anyone else.

    I don’t like it when you reproduce the insult game. You don’t like me making a response to Conned, even if my subject was individualism which isn’t at all about Conned. Do you see the difference?

    If people are afraid of making comments that the agent provacateurs talk about, then aren’t we just self-censoring ourselves based upon what they choose to write about?

  80. Ariel Says:

    Neo,
    Nice to put a voice to the words.

    Ymar,

    Go back to “Why we should consider a National Secrets Act” and read Sallys, yours, and my last comment. Avoid responses to long non-sequiturs.

  81. neoneoconned Says:

    look yrmdwnkr although you may not know what your leaders are about they are actually quite open.

    The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle.

  82. Ymarsakar Says:

    The United States has not yet begun to Empire build. Pray you are not alive to see this happen, for your soul and body will be laid bare to the elements should you resist such liberal actions to an extent that our Iraqi shock troops would be forced to render you As Un Der.

    The history of nations is quaint, and complex, yet everything has a beginning. Such beginnings such as this comment to blackfive, is a good example.

    Americans believe in our individuality, the diversity of human and individual accomplishments, for good or ill. We could have implemented John RIngo’s strategy for Iraq and Afghanistan, but we would then be as acting like Britain, and not in a way true to the character of the United States. Individuality is inefficient, that is its charm. In the short term, it is messy and loud, but in the long term, the power that will be produced is unimaginable.

    As Thornton wrote at VDH, individuality is the bane of totalitarian nations, systems, and people. Did you believe there were no totalitarian people? Oh there are, plenty to go around. Plenty to kill as well. Too many to live with to be honest.

    Here’s a little sample of individualism, via VDH, and my own comments

  83. neoneoconned Says:

    Well i listened to this nonsense and it left me wondering if this whole blogging business is a dangerously divisive enterprise. It seems to me that what is developing are groups of people who agree with each other mutually supporting the group-think of that faction. The web could be the end of broadcasting and the rise of a narrow cast to competing groups.

    This blog provides a great example of this. Whatever happens you give a predictable right wing response and the other, increasingly violent cheerleaders for death, join in. There are then the dismal links to other right wing sites and the careful process of quoting out of context of perceived “left-liberal” sites.

    The end point of all this neo-con nonsense will be a series of wars. The USA will win all of these in open battle but they will create an increasing number of “asymmetric” – terrorist type situations.

    And the route to this is paved with the kind of low level racism, ignorance of the world outside the USA, nationalism and militarism neo exhibits in every posting. The real motivation for it is US economic supremacy and neo tries to provide an ideological justification for this. Commentators such as putrescent wasp and yrmdwnkr give us an unvarnished version of the neo-con approach which neo constantly fails to criticise as she probably, more or less agrees with them.

  84. Ymarsakar Says:

    Ah, his voice inflections were different, probably due to his teasing, when he first was refering to you. I just thought it weird that a host would do that to a guest. I didn’t know the host was Austin though. Skipped all the names I guess since I don’t know the voice patterns yet.

  85. neo-neocon Says:

    No, no, Austin’s a good guy. We are acquainted with each other (we met at the PJ kickoff bash in NY). He was just teasing me.

  86. Ymarsakar Says:

    Your voice sounds like Melannie Phillips. And did you hear the way the host called you “Neo”? Lol

    There is some under vibrations going on there, especially after Bay (was it Bay?) who said you could make a fool of yourself in public with blogs.

    Be a bay, be e bee, be a bicky bay bee oh bo.

    I’m not sure, but is the announcer annoyed? His voice changes some inflection when he talks about you Neo. Without the face and body language, I can’t verify it however.

  87. Ymarsakar Says:

    Almost all the Fox news women hosting shows and what not, have sultry contralto pitched voices. As well as that of other comparable networks like CNN.

    The shrillness of soprano really, for some reason, is not seen as “authoritative or pleasant”.

  88. Goesh Says:

    Not sultry enough to suit me (kidding)- well metered, mature, the inflection shows one given to introspection. You didn’t get to talk alot….

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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