I think stevie acts like he doesn’t understand what I say, because Sally’s an easier person to talk to.

No man. You have a weird way of writing. I honestly don’t know what your on about half the time.

Apart from that - you don’t really leave much room for me to comment, Ymar.

I suppose I could come up with some clever insult as an equivalent response, but I just can’t be bothered right now…

Otherwise, nice parallel. You’re right about drawing the semblance between the seductive nature of the Piper’s tune and the seducing nature of the martyrdom environment.

http://www.allthingsbeautiful.com/all_things_beautiful/2006/07/the_kid_is_dead.html#comments

Alexandra has some good stuff to say about Israel. Namely, in my words, Israel is in the pit they are, because Israel acts weak, and does not do total war. And Israel does not do total war in part because of the Holocaust.

America should never act like Israel. Never, regardless of how many people toute Israel’s superior CT skills. The cost isn’t worth it.

They negotiated with terroists, they gave over 400 Hizbollah prisoners in return for one Israel. That, is why Israel is getting blown up.

Oh.

Of course there will not be.

They are terrorists, aren’t they? They don’t deserve any justice.

Ka whakapohani!!

It’s like an Arab version of the Heaven’s Gate cult.

Typical liberal response. As if this ever came as close.

Probligo, aside from naturally assuming on your part that Israel is actually jailing innocent women and children, is that ANYWHERE near as equal as conditioning them to become human shields?

(Hell, thats probably the best way to keep them alive.)

How the hell is anyone supposed to take your kind seriously?

Do you really care? Or is this just automatic on your part?

Makes it cheaper just to send your kids to the great “Never-Neverland Ranch” in the sky.

Your last line is completely senseless. How were the Vietnamese children “recruited”? What do you mean? Their country had been invaded, and the Vietnamese, men, women and children, were all defending their homeland any way they could. I doubt that there was any need to “recruit”.

Remember how the Roman historian Joseph Flavius described how the Jewish defenders of the Masada — men, women and children — defended themselves?

“Some 75 years after Herod’s death, at the beginning of the Revolt of the Jews against the Romans in 66 CE, a group of Jewish rebels overcame the Roman garrison of Masada. After the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple (70 CE) they were joined by zealots and their families who had fled from Jerusalem. With Masada as their base, they raided and harassed the Romans for two years. Then, in 73 CE, the Roman governor Flavius Silva marched against Masada with the Tenth Legion, auxiliary units and thousands of Jewish prisoners-of-war.

“Josephus Flavius dramatically recounts the story told him by two surviving women. The defenders – almost one thousand men, women and children – led by Eleazar ben Ya’ir, decided to burn the fortress and end their own lives, rather than be taken alive. “And so met (the Romans) with the multitude of the slain, but could take no pleasure in the fact, though it were done to their enemies. Nor could they do other than wonder at the courage of their resolution, and at the immovable contempt of death which so great a number of them had shown, when they went through with such an action as that was.” ”

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/Masada1.html

Nate: “Your last line is completely senseless.”

Your entire comment misses the point of her last line. Children don’t naturally march off to war. As for the Jewish resistance, they carried their children with them. That’s how the kids were recruited. The Vietnamese, indeed, fought the invading NVA tooth and nail (at least until our Congress denied them funding), but we’re talking about the VC using kids.

They were recruited the usual way. Exterminate a friendly US village, take the women and children hostage, kill the men. Hold the mothers hostage, train the children, then unleash the children by threatening to kill the mothers. When children are used up, get rid of the women. Simple. Food might be a problem though, but the village probably has enough.

The reason why the Jewish women and children had to fight back, is because the ROmans didn’t give a damn and would have crucified everyone. The children and the women would have suffocated to death on the cross.

led by Eleazar ben Ya’ir, decided to burn the fortress and end their own lives, rather than be taken alive.

Good choice mofo, you don’t want to be the prisoners of Rome after rebelling. Bad mojo.

Nor could they do other than wonder at the courage of their resolution, and at the immovable contempt of death which so great a number of them had shown, when they went through with such an action as that was

Courage? Romans expected people to suicide before they fell into enemy hands, it was a more “honorable death”. Trying to use human shields to make the Romans feel ashamed, would have been a losing proposition, obviously.

Nate doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about, because this is obviously not relevant to Nate’s point that the women and children of Vietnam resisted to the death.

“Your entire comment misses the point of her last line. Children don’t naturally march off to war. As for the Jewish resistance, they carried their children with them. That’s how the kids were recruited. The Vietnamese, indeed, fought the invading NVA tooth and nail (at least until our Congress denied them funding), but we’re talking about the VC using kids.”

————

Nate replies:

See the article “Back to Vietnam, and Its Myths,” by Michael Lind, New York Times, June 19, 1997. It’s available online here: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/lindviet.htm

It says:

“Until the Tet offensive, however, most of the guerrillas and the supplies came from the South itself.“

Thay could start by taking out the TV and Radio stations that broadcast the Pied Pipers message.

Just giving you Nate’s response so Nate doesn’t have to bother.

Y,

Make war on other countries, great way to free up widows for marriage and getting rid of the excess “male” population.

Mallory. I just love the ability of people like yourself to deny truth.

There are “some 400 women and children” prisoners in Israeli jails. Are you saying that is untrue?

Those women and children are being held without trial. Are you saying that is untrue?

Ka whakapohani!!

This brainwashing of children is morally repugnant. Any society which condones it is sick and diseased. Every Westerner who has moral confidence should be unafraid to declare so, in frank and confident language.

It is untrue. Now prove it.

If the Palestinians were raping every child above the age of three, we might stand up and declare their culture to be sick and diseased.

From what I’ve read, Arabs already doing that.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/183793.php

Sakar then replied: “It is untrue. Now prove it.”

Amnesty International confirms what Probligo says.

If you click on the following page:

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-action-detention

at Amnesty International’s website, you’ll see the following (I quote):

“Administrative detention is a procedure under which detainees are held without charge or trial. No charges are filed, and there is no intention of bringing a detainee to trial. [..]

“Currently, more than 600 Palestinians remain in administrative detention. Most of them are held in Ofer Military Camp (in the West Bank) and the Ansar 3/Ketziot Military Camp in the Negev desert, where conditions are extremely harsh.

“‘Etaf ‘Alyan, 42 years old, mother of a 20 months girl, is serving her second consecutive administrative detention order. She was arrested on 22 December 2005 by the Israeli army at her house in the West Bank town of Ramallah, and has since been detained without charge or trial.[..] Her daughter was initially not allowed to be with her in detention but was eventually allowed to join her in prison in March 2006.”

– Amnesty International website,
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-action-detention

Source: B’Tselem, January 2006″

Yes, those are the totals and I have been talking only of the women and children. They are included in those numbers. Don’t you just LOVE the euphemisms involved; “administrative detention” for “without trial”. Further investigation will show that the larger number of those in “administrative detention” are “awaiting trial”. That B’Tselem is unable to obtain any detail of the length of detention surprises me not.

Have a read here, and here for a more partisan description.

Sakar (Y?) Your turn, prove that wrong and untrue. A link to a verifiable web page or news item that SAYS that every one of those 100 women and 300 under-18 aged children have faced charges in Court and been sentenced to imprisonment, and that the time waiting for trial is not excessive. I am sure that B’Tselem would publish your figures if they are verifiable.

Nate, thanks for the Amnesty detail.

The problem with the war in the Levant, AFAIAC is that there is equal wrong on both sides, as there is equal right on both sides.

Not to worry, probligo — they will now say that Amnesty International can’t be trusted because it’s a “liberal” source

I’ll even hand that to you. What Im asking you how this equates? Why do you ignore the foundation of my question?

How is this even as bad as making those same children human shields?

When they are playing on the roof of their house? Or when they are playing soccer in the street? Or how about walking home from school with their father?

Why do I need to prove it untrue, all I got to tell you is “that it doesn’t matter” if it is true. Detaining suicide bombers (and their helpers) and providing them their children to care for is…. not inhumane.

Not to worry, probligo — they will now say that Amnesty International can’t be trusted because it’s a “liberal” source

Ymar isn’t as predictable as that, I’m afraid.

So long as he children and mothers are in IDF jails, they aren’t free to kill each other out in the real world.

They are simply a branch office of the worldwide Jihad.

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

For the worldwide left, the Israel/Paleo conflict is a gateway recruitment mechanism. First you have to believe something according to their dogma that transcends observable reality, then you can be a member of their really Kewl Sekret Klub. Every opposition group has a version of this from the Kikuyu Mau-Mau Blood Oath to the German National Socialist Party on up to the Islamists.

If you believe in principles and values which can be empirically proven to deliver the greatest good for the greatest number you are derided. By the True Believers.

So that it is clear -

If the provenance of the story is correct, and I am not going out of the way to prove it wrong or right but accept it as “probable” -

Then personally I think it stinks.

BUT -

I ask again, if this is the honest expression of opinion, what are each of you teaching your children about Palestine, Palestinians, and Moselms in general?

ps; and Harry, I ignore questions that are couched in insult and sophistry. I have it on the very good authority of MHW that that kind of conduct will not be tolerated on this site. I am refraining as best I can…

Ka Whakapohani!!

Bush wouldn’t know how to lie if his life depended upon it.

Btw, this is more important than Israelis locking up Palestinian insurgents.

http://ymarsakar.blogspot.com/2006/07/un-scores-another-one-for-guys-at-loot.html

To add: What is being described in this article is not a ‘phenomena’, these are individual cases only.

The uncles, ants, fathers and mothers are NOT those who is feeding these palestinian children with hatred..yu know what is feeding these children with hate ? see :
http://peacepalestinedocuments.blogspot.com/
See the Hebron kids vs IDF..

But then the rationale behind my statement would take more space than I am permitted here (see the rather cryptic little post by the wasp - that is the alarm bell) to fully explain.

It is as I said earlier - there is much wrong on both sides, as there is right on both sides.

Tell me again how many tanks and F16s the Palestinian Defence Forces (or the terrorists for that matter) have…

I post here for the underdogs simply because of the attitudes on show. Think about what has been said for a moment or three to see what I mean.

And I would dearly like to hear at least one person say what they teach their children about Muslims and Palestinians.

As for the claim by some professional bligo that “innocent women and children” are being held in Israeli custody, well I suppose that the bligo wouldn’t mind if only innocent men were in custody, eh? Sheesh, pinko bligos are sooo often blatant anti-man sesists!

Furthermore, just because those the professional bligo is bligoing over are in Israeli “Administrative detention” doesn’t for a second show that those palis are “innocent”. (Duh.)

“Furthermore, just because those the professional bligo is bligoing over are in Israeli “Administrative detention” doesn’t for a second show that those palis are “innocent”.”

As you must well know,

(1) whether an accused is guilty can only be determined if the accused is given a fair trial, and
(2) an accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty, and
(3) “administrative detention” is a procedure under which the detainees are held without charge or trial.

So, the detainees are to presumed innocent. Not only have they not been brought to trial, they have not even been charged with anything.

If Israel wants the world to consider the detainees as “not innocent”, Israel needs to (a) charge them, and (2) bring them to trial.

“Amnesty International is a corrupt organization. Its claims are so often biased that no reasonable person can trust that they are a fair and balanced portrayal of any given situation.”

Funny, I have in the past seen neocons trumpeting Amnesty International’s claims when AI criticizes the government of Cuba (a country that neocons dislike). The charge that “AI is a corrupt organization” is reliably trotted out only when the government that AI criticizes is one the neocons happen to cheerlead (in this case, Israel).

There’s a name for such selective blindness. It’s spelled h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y

If Israel wants the world to consider the detainees as “not innocent”, Israel needs to (a) charge them, and (2) bring them to trial.

They need to hold them hostage and have prisoner exchanges. 1 Palestinian woman and child for 10 Israelis. That’s fair.

It is as I said earlier - there is much wrong on both sides, as there is right on both sides.

No, there there ain’t. You guys keep wanting to stack the deck to make the chem reaction go until there are not reagents left. All you are doing is sustaining the cycle of violence.

Tell me again how many tanks and F16s the Palestinian Defence Forces (or the terrorists for that matter) have…

How many hostages have the IDF executed and then sold the DVDs for it?

I post here for the underdogs simply because of the attitudes on show. Think about what has been said for a moment or three to see what I mean.

Go over to Palestinian Princess if you want to “post” for the underdogs. Aren’t we acting morally superior here, or is it just you?

OK. That pretty much says everything about where your at right there.

The Palestinians are justified in teaching martyrdom to their children so that they can use them as weapons against Israel who are using their high tech weapons to defend themselves from fanatic psychopaths who use children as weapons.

Of course this perfect circle of insanity will continue largely because world opinion doesnt slam down on the Palestinians, get them to cease the violence so that victimhood and martyrdom wallowing Palestinians might come up with another way to solve their problems. (Negotiation maybe?)

That way, Israel could actually turn over more than just the Gaza strip and not feel afterwards that they’re going to get screwed by fanatic psychopaths using children as weapons.

But, we’re not going to see that.

Porbligo, you are concerned about what we here might tell our children about Palestinians or Moslems in general. Again, as if this equates with promoting martyrdom among them.

If I had children, I would not offer an opinion unless asked and then Id tell them that the Moslem world creates its own problems and that liberals in the west enable them to do so. Id tell them that because of it, the violence will continue well into the next century.

No, I think we can safely say that AI is biased and corrupt pretty much all the time, but when it feels itself forced to criticize a nation the left-libs happen to cheerlead (e.g., Cuba), then we can be fairly assured that the abuse is at least as bad as they portray — which is not the case, obviously, when their criticism simply reflects their bias.

Answer is obvious. If you want to take the gloves off, don’t act like you didn’t start the fight. And if you take the gloves off and I don’t, and I still beat you, don’t whine and complain that I’m “cheating”.

That country was Nazi Germany. And when avenging Allied tanks encountered resisting German villages, they reduced the buildings to mere memorials, and the villagers to penury.

No one seems to consider these actions a crime today. What would be wrong if Israel levelled Gaza and drove its inhabitants away tomorrow?

Yes ,Y, you are. The emphasis is on the operative words.

Pretty damned poor thespianship it is too - ham footed and cow tongued.

Thanks for the thoughts on what you might teach your children. About what I figured. As is the rest of the vapours around this topic.

Ka whakapohani!!

Israel has been killing Palestinians daily while Hamas observes a cease fire, starts to muse about offically recognizing Israel(for what it’s worth I have no idea - apparently for Israel to negoiate what it should have been negoiating 40 years ago - but manages to find an excuse to not negoiate every time - and which point Israel starts provoking Palestinian response.

So typical.

And even more typical is the no brained analysis of people like neo-con who know nothing about the conflict demonizing the Palestinians for fighting back. What a crock.

Don’t you realize that sane people can see right through such nonsense?

I guess not because you repeat it like clockwork while the evidence stacks up around you.

Israel is the closet thing we have to Nazi’s today. Hands down.

And they are Jews.

Go figure….

Once upon a time, a country existed that rocketed its neighbors indiscrimately, kidnapped noncombatants for later execution, and whose population sought to conquer as much territory as possible and reduce the rest of the world to slavery.

He’s talking about Palestinians. He’s equating a rag tag bunch - in the poorest strip of land on the planet without adequete water, no electricity who have have their homes destroyed their land stolen, their children and women imprisoned and tortured - and these people are supposed to remind us of Nazi Germany?

Wow. Just when I think I’ve read idiocy beyond my basic comprehension.

There’s a new one every day.

By the way - the soldier they ‘kidnapped’ - a soldier - like the ones who regularly shoot and kill civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, beating, abuse etc.

They should hand him back in pieces.

It is Israel which is occupying territory illegally, in violation of international law and US resolutions.

Palestine isn’t occupying Israeli territory illegally. It’s the other way round.

Countries that violate international law are called rogue states.

If the U.S. were to invade the “rogue state” of Israel, set up a democratic government, ask for amnesty of the “insurgent” Palestinians, and then leave, would that satisfy the left? (Since the Israelis violated UN resolutions, disobeyed international law, etc., etc.)

By the way, does this sound familiar, at all?

Only by indiscrimiante lefties. The rest of us would say that if a country attacks another country and then is defeated and occupied, the attacking country should remain occupied until, at a bare minimum, it formally recognizes the other’s right to exist. Most sensible people (i.e., not counting gullible lefties) would also recognize that “international law” is often little more than a facade for various other tyrannies, dictatorships, theocracies, failed states, and real rogue states a cover for their international machinations.

Only by indiscrimiante lefties. The rest of us would say that if a country attacks another country and then is defeated and occupied, the attacking country should remain occupied until, at a bare minimum, it formally recognizes the other’s right to exist. Most sensible people (i.e., not counting gullible lefties) would also recognize that “international law” is often little more than a facade for various other tyrannies, dictatorships, theocracies, failed states, and real rogue states a cover for their international machinations.

Rubbish. And it’s not ‘indiscriminate lefties’ it’s the vast, vast majority of the world’s population.

Even in the U.S.

Israel is by definition - even by ‘righties’(?)- a rouge state.

International law is a guideline for international behavior and cooperation. It was formed as a response to World War 2 and as a framework for minimizing conflict. It has become a facade mainly - and the record bears this out as clear as day - because of American hegemony and it’s ability to undermine the U.N to suit it’s needs and those of it’s allies while maintaining some kind of semblence of legitimacy where it has none - outside of the military industrial complex.

And thats well known and understood.

Please, Sally - you’ll have to do much better than just rehashing rightwing horsecrap.

Nobody’s buying it except for your fringe, lunatic no-brainers….

If the U.S. were to invade the “rogue state” of Israel, set up a democratic government, ask for amnesty of the “insurgent” Palestinians, and then leave, would that satisfy the left? (Since the Israelis violated UN resolutions, disobeyed international law, etc., etc.)”

Stumbley: invasion of country A by country B when B has not attacked A is also a violation of international law, and is therefore not acceptable.

I think the proper analogy of Israel is not with Iraq but with apartheid-era South Africa. The world needs to start treating Israel in the way it treated apartheid-era South Africa: like a pariah. Until Israel withdraws from all the occupied territories, dismantles all settlements in the occupied territories (building settlements in occupied territories is in violation of international law) and recognizes the right to return, with full citizenship, of all Palestinians who had had to leave their homes.

Are you for real girl?

Who in god’s name do you think your fooling?

Put away the crayons and lets talk….

From Amnesty International’s website:

“Among the key human rights principles enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is the right to return. Article 13 of the UDHR states: ”Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.”

“The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), the treaty which gives legal force to many of the rights proclaimed in the UDHR, codifies the right to return, stating in Article 12.4: ”No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.””

“Amnesty International believes that the right to return applies not just to those who were directly expelled and their immediate families, but also to those of their descendants who have maintained what the Human Rights Committee calls ”close and enduring connections” with the area.

“International law provides a standard for measuring the existence of a ”close and enduring connection” between a person and his or her ”own country” through a set of criteria established by the International Court of Justice in 1955.”

– From Amnesty International’s website, http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150132001?open&of=ENG-PSE

If the Palestinians live in abject poverty, slums, and third-world conditions, they have only their “leaders” and themselves to blame.

Appeals to mythical “international law” are vaporous. Show me your “international police badge” and your “international warrant” and then back it all up with your “international gun” and your “international jail”. States are the ultimate arbiters of what will be; and, as Mao so aptly put it, we all know from whence comes power.

How many divisions does the does “International Law” have. (Adapted from a famous remark by Stalin) Israel is a state confronting the localized manifestation of criminal gangs, deranged by “faith”, masquerading as a state.

Oh, and by the way for Probligo: I taught my children values, principles, ethics, gave them first class crap detectors and gave them the latitude to make up their own minds about politics. As it happens both became conservatives, as did most of their schoolmates, even after years of exposure to socialist memes. Gosh, where do you suppose I went wrong?

Lets see if I kill your family, destroy your house, confine you in your backyard with no water or energy, take your money and then whup your useless ass in front of your neighours whenever I frickin’ feel like it - and we’ll see how fiercely independent you are - we’d see how you quickly you blame others for your woes…bloody imbecile….

“your useless ass”

Yep, that about describes their situation, doesn’t it?

All of what you describe *may* be true, but so what? Does that justify the training of children to be martyrs? How does that improve the Palestinian’s situation in the least? That, as I understand it, was the point of neo’s post. Your blathering on about the miserable state of the Palestinians says nothing about their perpetuating it by using their children as pawns instead of instilling in them a hope for the future and the education and training that they can put to use attaining it.

Again, I say: If the Palestinians want respect and/or sympathy for their situation, they had best stop complaining, act to stop the most violent among them, turn their attentions to building instead of destroying, and improve relations with their neighbors instead of rocketing them.

Seems simple to me. Anyone who says that the endless cycle of violence cannot be stopped is foolish. All it takes is for one side to stop. And the Israelis don’t attack unless provoked.

Didn’t your government use 16 U.N resolutions to justify the invasion of Iraq by which you support?

Do you believer in U.S federal laws? State laws?

Or maybe you just think that because I am bigger, stronger and am just damn able too - that it’s quite natural for me to kick you ass just because I feel like it or because I don’t like you. Or steal from you because I want to.

Is that right?

What rubbish. ….

All of what you describe *may* be true, but so what? Does that justify the training of children to be martyrs? How does that improve the Palestinian’s situation in the least? That, as I understand it, was the point of neo’s post. Your blathering on about the miserable state of the Palestinians says nothing about their perpetuating it by using their children as pawns instead of instilling in them a hope for the future and the education and training that they can put to use attaining it.

What I wrote is true. The question isn’t whether it justifies it dumbley.
The question is why does it happen? And neo doesn ‘t go there. Because we and anybody with an ounce of honesty knows why it happens. 40 years of brutal(brutal by ANY standards)occupation. Israeli rejectionism, flagarent human rights violations, 60 odd U.N resolutions and mountains of evidence that Israel is conducting a slow and deliberate ethnic cleansing - contrary to what it says. It does not recognize Palestinian rights to the land that they have inhabited for centuries as a majority in Palestine.

Which if it was any other nation would face sanctions, and even possible military intervention - almost certain military intervention if you consider the number of wars it started and aggressive attacks on it’s neighbours.

Using children as pawns is horrible. So are suicide bombers. So are occupations.

If your so godammn concerened about Palestinians children Stumbley - and Neo and whoever else wants to use this bullshit as pro-fascist propaganda - than you ask why this is happening. And then you be honest.

And if you can’t be honest or must support Israel for religous reasons or facist ideology well than at least show the minimum decency and shut your stupid cakehole.

You don’t sit on your throne of shit and point fingers at a people who are being murdered, and disspossed as we speak.

Where is your frickin decency?

And the Israelis don’t attack unless provoked.

Yes they do. And they have been attacking Palestinian’s daily in Gaza BEFORE the rocket attacks and WHILE Hamas observed a cease fire for over a year. They have a long, undefenseable history of provoking Palestinians - and Syrians and others if they want to attack - 1967 was an excellent example and one well documented and necessarily avoided at all costs by liars for… I mean, supporters of Israel.

Hamas was also openly discussing full recognition of Israel - and then Israel stepped up it’s attack in Gaza - all to save this soldier, of course.

Those of us familiar with the history of the conflict and Israel tactics in conflict and it’s image in the international community are only too familiar with the latest lies and atrocities….

Sorry, but “occupation”, brutal or otherwise, still does not excuse or justify suicide bombers, or the willful indoctrination of children into a suicide death cult, no matter what your opinion of Israel. And your use of profanity and invective don’t bode well for rational discussion, which is what we’d like to have at neo’s site. Insult, frothing at the virtual mouth, and bile will get you banned, so I’d suggest that you clean up your act, and attempt a civil discourse.

No one is suggesting that Israel is blameless in this conflict, but to call Palestinian suicide bombers morally equivalent to the Israelis imprisoning suspects without trial is simply wrong. And you keep ignoring the fact that if the Palestinian leaders would simply turn their energies and resources (however meager) to improving the