Comments on: Iranian elections: free and fair, or changing the display windows? http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/ Fri, 29 Aug 2008 03:37:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1 By: Steve http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21544 Steve Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:18:27 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21544 I'm not surprised that Ahmadenijad is getting into hot water. He's just too much of a goofball to be a representative leader of any country. I appreciate the acknowledgment, via Ledeen, that the Iranian Prez is just a figurehead, in other words, he has little power. I’m not surprised that Ahmadenijad is getting into hot water. He’s just too much of a goofball to be a representative leader of any country.

I appreciate the acknowledgment, via Ledeen, that the Iranian Prez is just a figurehead, in other words, he has little power.

]]> By: Ariel http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21545 Ariel Sat, 23 Dec 2006 02:33:37 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21545 The question is what purpose did he serve for the mullahs who represent the real power? The question is what purpose did he serve for the mullahs who represent the real power?

]]> By: Curious http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21546 Curious Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:32:19 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21546 Out of curiosity, I was wondering if you or anyone on the "Sanity Squad" actually knows anything about Iran? I mean, actual knowledge, not what you read in a blog post about a blog post about an essay about an op-ed about a news story, but rather first-hand knowledge (been to Iran? Speak Farsi?) or second-hand knowledge (read an actual scholarly book, not some Ken Pollack garbage, or something along those lines - maybe an ICG report or two?). Anything? Out of curiosity, I was wondering if you or anyone on the “Sanity Squad” actually knows anything about Iran? I mean, actual knowledge, not what you read in a blog post about a blog post about an essay about an op-ed about a news story, but rather first-hand knowledge (been to Iran? Speak Farsi?) or second-hand knowledge (read an actual scholarly book, not some Ken Pollack garbage, or something along those lines - maybe an ICG report or two?). Anything?

]]> By: expat http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21547 expat Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:41:00 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21547 I've read that Ahmadinejad is really hurting the economy. I have no expertise to evaluate this. I’ve read that Ahmadinejad is really hurting the economy. I have no expertise to evaluate this.

]]> By: PhilinFL http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21548 PhilinFL Sat, 23 Dec 2006 07:36:45 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21548 Hey, N-NC! Love this blog, where have you been all my life! I went into exile from the People's Republic of Moscowchusetts in 1998, down to (central) Florida...We may be rednecks, but WE'RE NORMAL, knowwhuttimean? I grew up in PRM, so I can really empathize w/those "friendly family chats." But I was a Repub since the Reagan days, I was mugged much younger than you!! Hey, N-NC! Love this blog, where have you been all my life!

I went into exile from the People’s Republic of Moscowchusetts in 1998, down to (central) Florida…We may be rednecks, but WE’RE NORMAL, knowwhuttimean?

I grew up in PRM, so I can really empathize w/those “friendly family chats.” But I was a Repub since the Reagan days, I was mugged much younger than you!!

]]> By: Isaiah Hunahun http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21549 Isaiah Hunahun Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:03:40 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21549 Good podcast and post -- keep up the great work -- and Merry Christmas :) Good podcast and post — keep up the great work — and Merry Christmas :)

]]> By: strcpy http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21550 strcpy Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:14:44 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21550 Amusingly enough, the same one who tend to treat Iran's election as above the board honest are the same who think the ones in the US are totally fixed. Amusingly enough, the same one who tend to treat Iran’s election as above the board honest are the same who think the ones in the US are totally fixed.

]]> By: Sergey http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21542 Sergey Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:56:14 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21542 The question in headline of this post is not a real question for me. Who in his true senses can believe in honest elections under totalitarian regime? I also "voted" in Soviet Union, and nobody except a handful of crazy "real believers" took this ritual as a real thing. The question in headline of this post is not a real question for me. Who in his true senses can believe in honest elections under totalitarian regime? I also “voted” in Soviet Union, and nobody except a handful of crazy “real believers” took this ritual as a real thing.

]]> By: dacher http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21543 dacher Sat, 23 Dec 2006 22:50:40 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21543 And what exactly would regime change in Iran accomplish? Iran's current form of government already sounds suspiciously like Iraq's post-Saadam government - an Islamic Democracy based on Sharia. Iraqi politicians are "blessed" by the religious leaders of Iraq before running for office. Clerics like Al Sistani and Al Sadr are most powerful than the "elected" civilian leadership. Study history, that's just how the Muslim Mideast worked. All secular leaders are dictators. The democracies all become theocracies (Yeman as an example). Ironically, burying the hatchet, making peace with Saadam would have been the strongest counter to Islamicism and Iran. And what exactly would regime change in Iran accomplish? Iran’s current form of government already sounds suspiciously like Iraq’s post-Saadam government - an Islamic Democracy based on Sharia. Iraqi politicians are “blessed” by the religious leaders of Iraq before running for office. Clerics like Al Sistani and Al Sadr are most powerful than the “elected” civilian leadership. Study history, that’s just how the Muslim Mideast worked. All secular leaders are dictators. The democracies all become theocracies (Yeman as an example). Ironically, burying the hatchet, making peace with Saadam would have been the strongest counter to Islamicism and Iran.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21551 Ymarsakar Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:08:51 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21551 Everything, it would accomplish everything, in relation to the Shias. Everything, it would accomplish everything, in relation to the Shias.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21552 Ymarsakar Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:11:21 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21552 Amanie is the propaganda head and the controller of the mob in Iran. The clerics were losing popular support, so they needed a "new face". We have clerical power, secret police power, military power, and propaganda/political/people power. based upon how the clerics set up their military, they may have 1 or 2 or 3 of the above. But they don't have all the trappings under their thumb. Amanie is the propaganda head and the controller of the mob in Iran. The clerics were losing popular support, so they needed a “new face”. We have clerical power, secret police power, military power, and propaganda/political/people power. based upon how the clerics set up their military, they may have 1 or 2 or 3 of the above. But they don’t have all the trappings under their thumb.

]]> By: Ariel http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21553 Ariel Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:35:22 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21553 Ymar, That was a very good summation. And it depends on how the powers align as to whether the regime continues. Ymar,

That was a very good summation. And it depends on how the powers align as to whether the regime continues.

]]> By: dacher http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21554 dacher Sun, 24 Dec 2006 02:38:50 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21554 Sounds just like how Iraq operates right now. You know if al-Maliki is replaced as PM it will be someone hand picked by the Shia clerics of Iraq. In Muslim democracies there is no distinction between religion and state. The mob will just vote for whomever their clerics tells them to vote for. I don't disagree with you on Iran. I'm just pointing out how the US created democracy in Iraq is looking very much like democracy in Iran. Sounds just like how Iraq operates right now. You know if al-Maliki is replaced as PM it will be someone hand picked by the Shia clerics of Iraq. In Muslim democracies there is no distinction between religion and state. The mob will just vote for whomever their clerics tells them to vote for.

I don’t disagree with you on Iran. I’m just pointing out how the US created democracy in Iraq is looking very much like democracy in Iran.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21555 Ymarsakar Sun, 24 Dec 2006 03:39:25 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21555 Every non-transparent nation operates in such a secretive and factionalistic fashion. Saddam had the police and military under him, but his tyrann was de-centralized. The people power were amongst the tribal and Sunni chiefs, mostly. Not in Saddam. Oh he liked attention, but that wasn't really people power. If he was out on the street alone, powerless, he couldn't count on any help from the "people", you know. If you saw the funeral for Khomeini in Iran, you would have been amazed at the fanaticism shown. Khomenini had definite "people" power. But if so, why the hell did the clerics believe that they needed an election? Eh? Tyrants only give elections if they believe it might benefit them. A lot of nations like NOrth Korea and China, are opaque. Meaning, I do not have the data necessary to analyze how their politics and factions work out. Not as I do with Britain. Mostly because there are no insider information specialists, because of restrictions on speech. But also mostly because China and NK and Iran have a HUGE propaganda and misinformation apparatus. You don't know what is true, or whether there are 1 or 2 or 3 layers to the data, all of a different sort and color. It takes time and effort to puzzle out what is true, what the Chinese believe to be true, and what is false. A job that is for intel agencies, not decentralized analysis. The internet is very good when the data is free and open and plentiful. In Iran and such, it is very hard to get information. Every non-transparent nation operates in such a secretive and factionalistic fashion. Saddam had the police and military under him, but his tyrann was de-centralized. The people power were amongst the tribal and Sunni chiefs, mostly. Not in Saddam. Oh he liked attention, but that wasn’t really people power. If he was out on the street alone, powerless, he couldn’t count on any help from the “people”, you know.

If you saw the funeral for Khomeini in Iran, you would have been amazed at the fanaticism shown. Khomenini had definite “people” power. But if so, why the hell did the clerics believe that they needed an election? Eh? Tyrants only give elections if they believe it might benefit them.

A lot of nations like NOrth Korea and China, are opaque. Meaning, I do not have the data necessary to analyze how their politics and factions work out. Not as I do with Britain. Mostly because there are no insider information specialists, because of restrictions on speech. But also mostly because China and NK and Iran have a HUGE propaganda and misinformation apparatus. You don’t know what is true, or whether there are 1 or 2 or 3 layers to the data, all of a different sort and color. It takes time and effort to puzzle out what is true, what the Chinese believe to be true, and what is false. A job that is for intel agencies, not decentralized analysis.

The internet is very good when the data is free and open and plentiful. In Iran and such, it is very hard to get information.

]]> By: grackle http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21556 grackle Sun, 24 Dec 2006 06:49:03 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21556 <I> … the US created democracy in Iraq is looking very much like democracy in Iran.</I> Only if you are not looking very hard. The elections in Iraq are monitored and fair; the elections in Iran are a farce. Another way the governments of the two countries differ is that the Iraqis are a government that no longer wages war against the US; the Iranians have yet to be stopped. And so far the Iraqis, unlike the Iranians, are not interfering in the internal affairs of neighboring countries. It seems these distinctions are missed by some.   … the US created democracy in Iraq is looking very much like democracy in Iran.

Only if you are not looking very hard. The elections in Iraq are monitored and fair; the elections in Iran are a farce. Another way the governments of the two countries differ is that the Iraqis are a government that no longer wages war against the US; the Iranians have yet to be stopped. And so far the Iraqis, unlike the Iranians, are not interfering in the internal affairs of neighboring countries. It seems these distinctions are missed by some.
 

]]> By: Michael Brazier http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21541 Michael Brazier Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:08:01 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21541 Dacher, the constitution of Iran defines a body called the "Guardian Council of the Constitution". One of its powers is to vet candidates for all elective offices in Iran -- anyone whose politics are "unconstitutional", as interpreted by the Guardian Council, is not allowed to hold elective office in Iran. And the constitution says explicitly that shari'a is its basis. (The Guardian Council's members are not elected, by the way.) The effect of this is that only Shi'a, and Khomeinist Shi'a at that, can ever hope to be elected to any office. The new Iraqi constitution doesn't contain anything like this. Ali Sistani is, as it happens, opposed to things like this -- he has said in so many words that mullahs should not have direct political power, and points to Iran as a horrible example. So no, Iraq's new government is not like Iran's, and if Sistani has his way it never will be. Dacher, the constitution of Iran defines a body called the “Guardian Council of the Constitution”. One of its powers is to vet candidates for all elective offices in Iran — anyone whose politics are “unconstitutional”, as interpreted by the Guardian Council, is not allowed to hold elective office in Iran. And the constitution says explicitly that shari’a is its basis. (The Guardian Council’s members are not elected, by the way.) The effect of this is that only Shi’a, and Khomeinist Shi’a at that, can ever hope to be elected to any office.

The new Iraqi constitution doesn’t contain anything like this. Ali Sistani is, as it happens, opposed to things like this — he has said in so many words that mullahs should not have direct political power, and points to Iran as a horrible example. So no, Iraq’s new government is not like Iran’s, and if Sistani has his way it never will be.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21557 Ymarsakar Mon, 25 Dec 2006 04:34:17 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21557 If Sadr kills Sistani and the Democrats allow this to happen, then it will become like Iran's. If Sadr kills Sistani and the Democrats allow this to happen, then it will become like Iran’s.

]]> By: Ymarsakar http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21558 Ymarsakar Mon, 25 Dec 2006 04:37:50 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2006/12/22/iranian-elections-free-and-fair-or/#comment-21558 They did it in Vietnam, not so hard to visualize the Democrats doing it again in Iraq. They did it in Vietnam, not so hard to visualize the Democrats doing it again in Iraq.

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