–Defense Secretary Gates, January 11, 2007

http://tinyurl.com/ytep23

What’s your point? What do you think is going to happen if we leave Iraq?

Will Muslims stop putting propane, nails and gas in cars in Haymarket?

Will Muslims stop murdering Buddhists and Christians in Thailand?

Will Hamas and Fatah immediately kiss and make up?

Will Iran cease attempting to produce of nuclear devices, stop supporting Hizb’allah, and stop trying to destabilize and take over Lebanon?

Will Arab nations immediately recognize Israel and sign peace agreements?

Or will Islamic fascists become emboldened by the collapse of the “paper tiger” and step up terrorist activities around the globe in quest of a worldwide Ummah?

You tell me.

Idiot.

Let’s focus on the topic at hand for a sec.

At first glance, the claim that the “surge,” which began six months ago and has already cost the lives of over 500 Americans, thousands of Iraqis and the dollar equivalent of China’s annual defense expenditures, has “just begun” would seem to mark a complete break from reality for the pro-war crowd.

But then, you realize it is just a loyalty to oath to be repeated by the remaining true believers so Bush can get a head count.

Efforts by the administration to reclaim the support of a mjority of Americans for our operations in Iraq have now been officially abandoned.

A scary realization.

Might I suggest a better song?

The Carpenter’s We’ve Only Just Begun…to Surge

Needed for what?

The “surge” depended on Iraqi politicians and security forces doing their jobs, too.

They haven’t.

Whatever our troops in Iraq do now is almost irrelevant.

What’s it all about, anyway?

The surge began last week, when the final battalion of troops arrived. You really don’t pay attention to facts, which is your big problem. I’m with Louise from the last thread. It’s time for you to go.

What do you suppose Joe Lieberman meant when he wrote in an article neo linked to over 4 months ago:

What is remarkable about this state of affairs in Washington is just how removed it is from what is actually happening in Iraq. There, the battle of Baghdad is now under way. A new commander, Gen. David Petraeus, has taken command, having been confirmed by the Senate, 81-0, just a few weeks ago. And a new strategy is being put into action, with thousands of additional American soldiers streaming into the Iraqi capital.

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009715

Does “now underway” really mean sit around until the very last guy shows up with…what?

The maps?

The plan?

Halliburton address in Iran? Projects?

Your take on what happens if we leave Iraq?

Step up to the plate, debate, or leave. It’s really that simple. You are one tiring dude.

Remember that you can practically make nuclear weapons by mixing dirt in a washing machine.

This is why you cant talk to liberals.

Q:Will Muslims stop putting propane, nails and gas in cars in Haymarket?
A: Who’s Haymarket are you referring to? Thiers? Ours?
Q:Will Muslims stop murdering Buddhists and Christians in Thailand?
A: Perhaps when the government accepts concensus building that includes the Muslim community. It usually helps when a government is equitable to it’s citizens.
Q:Will Hamas and Fatah immediately kiss and make up?
A: well at least it wouldn’t be the US starving one side and funding the other. I think that creates a problem right there and I hate for my country to make all these messes all over the place in my name. It’s not just evil but really getting stupid.
Q:Will Iran cease attempting to produce of nuclear devices, stop supporting Hizb’allah, and stop trying to destabilize and take over Lebanon?
A: Iran is not doing anything unique or unusal so what are you complaining about? Besides, If Israel has nuclear capabilities then everyone in the region should have equal capability. Israel threatens everyone in the region. The U.S. threatens everyone in the region. Hezbolla, they are Lebanese and deal with issues which effects them. Are you Lebanese? Is Hezbollah your business?
Q:Will Arab nations immediately recognize Israel and sign peace agreements?
A: geez, I would hope not. Israel belongs in Europe where it hails from. The folks who commited genocide against them in their countries where they come from should make room for their “Israel”. The others Jews, Christians and Muslims should belong as brothers and sisters in Palestine as before.
Q:Or will Islamic fascists become emboldened by the collapse of the “paper tiger” and step up terrorist activities around the globe in quest of a worldwide Ummah?
A: If the U.S. and Israel did not militarily occupy their lands they would hardly have a raison d’etre. As for Islamic fascists quests of a worldwide Ummah, they are doing a damn good job of it in your democratic systems. better then they can do at home under the US puppet regimes. GW Bush keeps telling us that we are fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them here. That’s a joke. They are here building an Ummah in the west in default of not being anywhere else and US is elsewhere fighting some Islamic boogeyman. That’s funny, isn’t it?

So you’re a member of the Kumbaya School Of International Politics.

Love and Daisies hasn’t worked since the Dawn of Time. Why should it work now? All you need is one bastard who takes advantage of all the other saps…and we’re off to the races.

You will always find that bastard…there will be a long line of them waiting for fools like you to do their thing.

“Without Me, Sister”

There’s a strong whiff of Anti-Semitics in your little screed. Hope I’m only being paranoid…

Bonnie, I really don’t mean to be rude but you are either woefully uniformed (misinformed?) or intentionally delusional. The history of Israel/Palestine/the Levant has not been all that peaceful, going back to ancient times. If you don’t like reading history texts, have a look at the Tanakh.

After the establishment of Christianity and Islam the region did not experience peaceful coexistence between the faiths. Mohammed drove the Jews out of Medina and Chaibar either killing them, selling them as slaves, or turning them into serfs. And you forgot two centuries of wars fought between Christians and Muslims over Jerusalem. You know, the Crusades? They were hardly times of brotherly love.

In more recent times, there were major Arab riots across Palestine in 1929 that left a lot of Jews dead and from 1936-1939 was the Arab Revolt headed by Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini. The Mufti demanded an end to Jewish immigration and an end to sales of land to Jewish owners. By the 1940s he was collaborating with Hitler.

If you doubt the imperial aspirations of the Islamists, I highly recommend reading historian Efraim Karsh’s “Islamic Imperialism: A History” (Yale University Press, 2006). Here is a brief bit from a book review at “Democratiya” (http://www.democratiya.com/review.asp?reviews_id=32)

Contrary to most explanations popular in Middle Eastern Studies, then, Karsh does not see Islamism as a response to the domination of European imperialism or to the growing embrace of Western ideals and practices by Muslim societies. Rather, the early Muslim Brotherhood traced the societal breakdown in the Islamic world ‘to the disintegration of the first umma and the creation of the Umayyad and Abbasid empires, where the notion of Allah’s universal sovereignty succumbed to the reality of human kingship and hereditary rule in the most decadent and un-Islamic forms’ (p.110). Thus, just as the first umma included an enormously diverse number of peoples, the Islamists’ ‘vision of peace and harmony under the banner of Islam was a worldwide, transnational order’ (p.212). As the first umma was produced by Muhammad’s military triumphs, so this new transnational Islamic order would be ushered in by politically motivated violence.”

The Jews belong in Europe?

You mean the Europe that tried to exterminate them, during the 20th Century? Don’t read much history, do you.

http://www.juancole.com/2007/06/sunni-bloc-pulls-out-of-government-5-us.html

As stated in that link, what is the surge for if not to give the government of Iraq a chance to succeed? The biggest problem in Iraq is the lack of cooperation between political parties, religious sects, tribes. Regardless of what happens with the surge, these different groups in Iraq need to start getting along better, or all our military efforts will be in vain.

Also, it is very dangerous to place faith in the activities of the Sunni tribes of the Anbar province. I see no indication that, in the long run, they want to cooperate with Shiites in Iraq, or even support a democratic, secular government in that country. If you have evidence of this, please point me to it.

Stumbley, I’m afraid that I don’t see how our military involvement in Iraq is helping with respect to any of the questions you listed in your comment.

The “surge” depended on Iraqi politicians and security forces doing their jobs, too.

I guess some people just can’t learn anything new, Neo. And that’s sad, given the progress some folks have had since 9/11. It simply contrasts the lack of progress by others in far uglier tones.

Ignorancy may be cured, but after 6 years… the opporunity for learning has long passed you by. There’s a time for everything, and thus you can always miss your opportunity.

Whatever our troops in Iraq do now is almost irrelevant.

Whatever the soldiers do to protect women and children have nothing to do with the Iraqi government’s ability to function in a terrorist environment in which their children and wives are threatened with execution if they do not behave according to Shariah Law.

Everyone here obviously agrees with the above summated Alphie position, right?

“They”? Don’t you mean “we”, Bonnie?

With that little adjustment, I’d say Bonnie actually has a point, as recent events in Britain are illustrating. We do need to recognize that there are fascist terrorists amongst us, along with their sympathizers, enablers and abettors — “Bonnie” herself being a good illustration — and that they mean us harm, unless, of course, we do as they tell us. We need to decide either to do as we’re told, or fight back. And if we decide on the latter, we better mean it, for as long as it takes.

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