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	<title>Comments on: Let&#8217;s not sully that narrative with anything as picayune as facts</title>
	<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hyman Rosen</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39684</link>
		<author>Hyman Rosen</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39684</guid>
					<description>Someone posted a very funny counterexample to Pascal's wager recently on Pharyngula. Say you get an e-mail from Nigeria promising you $1M in exchange for $1. Should you accept it? What if they offer $1B in exchange for 1¢? Pascal's wager would have you believe  that the more money the letter promises you, the more you should be willing to follow its terms!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone posted a very funny counterexample to Pascal&#8217;s wager recently on Pharyngula. Say you get an e-mail from Nigeria promising you $1M in exchange for $1. Should you accept it? What if they offer $1B in exchange for 1¢? Pascal&#8217;s wager would have you believe  that the more money the letter promises you, the more you should be willing to follow its terms!</p>
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		<title>By: gcotharn</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39686</link>
		<author>gcotharn</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39686</guid>
					<description>I would be interested in opinions(esp. of any psychologists!) about if any of the following has legitimacy:

I think many on the left find their sense of self, and of righteousness, from being on the left.  If they were to leave the left, they would feel dirty and immoral.  

I think they have bought into the leftist dogma w/o making a careful study of what they bought into.  They sort of join the club, and buy into all the rules/dogma.  I think, in some sense, they fear if one part of their unexamined dogma is incorrect, then large parts of the unexamined dogma may be incorrect.  I suspect this is why many on the left are so slow - or completely unwilling - to change positions on even a single issue - even when a huge number of facts are lined up against their original position.

I can change positions without feeling as if I am immoral or dirty.  They cannot.  Changing positions is, for me, a very moral thing.  It makes me feel good about myself that I am willing to examine all sides of an issue.  For a leftist, the thought of changing positions is terrifying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be interested in opinions(esp. of any psychologists!) about if any of the following has legitimacy:</p>
<p>I think many on the left find their sense of self, and of righteousness, from being on the left.  If they were to leave the left, they would feel dirty and immoral.  </p>
<p>I think they have bought into the leftist dogma w/o making a careful study of what they bought into.  They sort of join the club, and buy into all the rules/dogma.  I think, in some sense, they fear if one part of their unexamined dogma is incorrect, then large parts of the unexamined dogma may be incorrect.  I suspect this is why many on the left are so slow - or completely unwilling - to change positions on even a single issue - even when a huge number of facts are lined up against their original position.</p>
<p>I can change positions without feeling as if I am immoral or dirty.  They cannot.  Changing positions is, for me, a very moral thing.  It makes me feel good about myself that I am willing to examine all sides of an issue.  For a leftist, the thought of changing positions is terrifying.</p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39690</link>
		<author>Ymarsakar</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39690</guid>
					<description>&lt;b&gt;Pascal’s wager would have you believe that the more money the letter promises you, the more you should be willing to follow its terms!&lt;/b&gt;

pasca's wager is based upon the assumption that you can't find out what the payout will be. In scams, we already what the payout is and therefore there is no point wagering on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Pascal’s wager would have you believe that the more money the letter promises you, the more you should be willing to follow its terms!</b></p>
<p>pasca&#8217;s wager is based upon the assumption that you can&#8217;t find out what the payout will be. In scams, we already what the payout is and therefore there is no point wagering on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39691</link>
		<author>Ymarsakar</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 02:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39691</guid>
					<description>Remember when they said Bush lied. A nice little routine for figuring out what the Left is up to is find what they accuse their enemies of, and then assume that this is what the Left had been doing, has been doing, or is currently doing.

It's not even about whether they are right or not. Obviously WMDs and whatever actually happened, but they never happen the way they say it happened.

Putin and Amanie and Chavez are always quick to accuse the US of being just as evil as the US says they are. It is why Mexican leaders said the wall that was being considered for the southern border, was another Berlin Wall. Even as Mexicans send gestapo police to crush revolts down south.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember when they said Bush lied. A nice little routine for figuring out what the Left is up to is find what they accuse their enemies of, and then assume that this is what the Left had been doing, has been doing, or is currently doing.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not even about whether they are right or not. Obviously WMDs and whatever actually happened, but they never happen the way they say it happened.</p>
<p>Putin and Amanie and Chavez are always quick to accuse the US of being just as evil as the US says they are. It is why Mexican leaders said the wall that was being considered for the southern border, was another Berlin Wall. Even as Mexicans send gestapo police to crush revolts down south.</p>
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		<title>By: shirley</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39697</link>
		<author>shirley</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39697</guid>
					<description>Why Rove resigned.

&lt;blockquote&gt;By Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 14, 2007; Page A02

Five reporters must reveal their government sources for stories they wrote about Steven J. Hatfill and investigators' suspicions that the former Army scientist was behind the deadly anthrax attacks of 2001, a federal judge ruled yesterday.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
and the small pox and bird flu scare? Yep. Now your catching on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why Rove resigned.</p>
<blockquote><p>By Carol D. Leonnig<br />
Washington Post Staff Writer<br />
Tuesday, August 14, 2007; Page A02</p>
<p>Five reporters must reveal their government sources for stories they wrote about Steven J. Hatfill and investigators&#8217; suspicions that the former Army scientist was behind the deadly anthrax attacks of 2001, a federal judge ruled yesterday.
</p></blockquote>
<p>and the small pox and bird flu scare? Yep. Now your catching on.</p>
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		<title>By: Grimmy</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39698</link>
		<author>Grimmy</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39698</guid>
					<description>That journalism is about truth and integrity driven objectivity is a modern fantasy that has never had any foundation in reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That journalism is about truth and integrity driven objectivity is a modern fantasy that has never had any foundation in reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39710</link>
		<author>Tom Grey - Liberty Dad</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39710</guid>
					<description>"If one is not a Socialist when young, one has no heart; if not a Conservative when older, one has no brain" or something similar.

The "get in touch with feelings" Left wants to stay young and heartful -- even if means giving up using brains.

There is also the TV based Unreal Perfection, in relationships as well as policies, where it is assumed that some solution exists with no costs or negative aspects.


On facts changing minds, there is the inherent issue about intentions.  Bad results, but based on good intentions, are more highly valued by the Left than good results without the good intentions (e.g. free markets don't have the good intentions).

On the Iraq war, how many people have given any quantity estimates for evaluation?  Over many years I have (</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If one is not a Socialist when young, one has no heart; if not a Conservative when older, one has no brain&#8221; or something similar.</p>
<p>The &#8220;get in touch with feelings&#8221; Left wants to stay young and heartful &#8212; even if means giving up using brains.</p>
<p>There is also the TV based Unreal Perfection, in relationships as well as policies, where it is assumed that some solution exists with no costs or negative aspects.</p>
<p>On facts changing minds, there is the inherent issue about intentions.  Bad results, but based on good intentions, are more highly valued by the Left than good results without the good intentions (e.g. free markets don&#8217;t have the good intentions).</p>
<p>On the Iraq war, how many people have given any quantity estimates for evaluation?  Over many years I have (</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39711</link>
		<author>Tom Grey - Liberty Dad</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39711</guid>
					<description>***Hmm, using the left / right arrows caused the comment truncation.

My quantities: less than 2500 Americans killed, Bush gets an "A"; less than 5000, "B"; less than 10,000 a "C".

Neo, I know you are an Iraqi Freedom supporter.  Is there any number of US casualities which would lead you to say the war is not worth it?

[The reviews of "Explaining Postmodernism" seem great! Have you read it?]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>***Hmm, using the left / right arrows caused the comment truncation.</p>
<p>My quantities: less than 2500 Americans killed, Bush gets an &#8220;A&#8221;; less than 5000, &#8220;B&#8221;; less than 10,000 a &#8220;C&#8221;.</p>
<p>Neo, I know you are an Iraqi Freedom supporter.  Is there any number of US casualities which would lead you to say the war is not worth it?</p>
<p>[The reviews of &#8220;Explaining Postmodernism&#8221; seem great! Have you read it?]</p>
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		<title>By: Tatterdemalian</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39717</link>
		<author>Tatterdemalian</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39717</guid>
					<description>Dunno about her, but my judgement of a military strategy depends more on the number killed over a given period of time, instead of just a scorecard by itself.

In OIF, we have a rate of about 3000 dead over a period of four years, which comes to about 750 dead per year. In peace time, the US has a violent death rate of around 16,000 per year, during the same period.

When the losses among our troops reach 20,000 per year, then I'll start demanding a new strategy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunno about her, but my judgement of a military strategy depends more on the number killed over a given period of time, instead of just a scorecard by itself.</p>
<p>In OIF, we have a rate of about 3000 dead over a period of four years, which comes to about 750 dead per year. In peace time, the US has a violent death rate of around 16,000 per year, during the same period.</p>
<p>When the losses among our troops reach 20,000 per year, then I&#8217;ll start demanding a new strategy.</p>
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		<title>By: armchair pessimist</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39720</link>
		<author>armchair pessimist</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39720</guid>
					<description>Didn't Stalin's secret police have this motto? &lt;i&gt;Give us the man and we'll make the case&lt;/i&gt;

And credit where credit is due,   the "narratives" they came up with and put into the mouths of the accused surpass in the scope of inventiveness anything the mediocrity Thomas could ever write-- not if he had a case of Scotch to inspire  him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t Stalin&#8217;s secret police have this motto? <i>Give us the man and we&#8217;ll make the case</i></p>
<p>And credit where credit is due,   the &#8220;narratives&#8221; they came up with and put into the mouths of the accused surpass in the scope of inventiveness anything the mediocrity Thomas could ever write&#8211; not if he had a case of Scotch to inspire  him.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39721</link>
		<author>Richard Aubrey</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39721</guid>
					<description>My father's division was known for getting the job done in the ETO with (relatively) few casualties.  Correcting for the larger number, longer time, and presumed replacements, his division's KIA rate was fifteen times, being conservative, the KIA rate in Iraq.

Obviously, a larger number of US casualties is desireable as a tool with which to change the policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My father&#8217;s division was known for getting the job done in the ETO with (relatively) few casualties.  Correcting for the larger number, longer time, and presumed replacements, his division&#8217;s KIA rate was fifteen times, being conservative, the KIA rate in Iraq.</p>
<p>Obviously, a larger number of US casualties is desireable as a tool with which to change the policy.</p>
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		<title>By: neo-neocon</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39723</link>
		<author>neo-neocon</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39723</guid>
					<description>Tom Grey: there is no exact number of casualties.  It's the whole picture: the casualty &lt;i&gt;rate&lt;/i&gt; vs. the importance of the fight.  I take it for granted that most wars these days will be unlike the Gulf War (short and relatively easy) and more like the Iraq War (long and dirty).  

As for &lt;i&gt;Explaining Postmodernism&lt;/i&gt;: yes, I have read it, and it's excellent.  Especially the second half.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Grey: there is no exact number of casualties.  It&#8217;s the whole picture: the casualty <i>rate</i> vs. the importance of the fight.  I take it for granted that most wars these days will be unlike the Gulf War (short and relatively easy) and more like the Iraq War (long and dirty).  </p>
<p>As for <i>Explaining Postmodernism</i>: yes, I have read it, and it&#8217;s excellent.  Especially the second half.</p>
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		<title>By: The Unknown Blogger</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39729</link>
		<author>The Unknown Blogger</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39729</guid>
					<description>"The narrative was right, but the facts were wrong."

How anyone can write this post and not mention &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller_(journalist)#New_York_Times_career:_2002-2005" rel="nofollow"&gt;Judith Miller&lt;/a&gt; is beyond me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The narrative was right, but the facts were wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>How anyone can write this post and not mention <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller_(journalist)#New_York_Times_career:_2002-2005" rel="nofollow">Judith Miller</a> is beyond me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39738</link>
		<author>Ymarsakar</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-39738</guid>
					<description>&lt;b&gt;How anyone can write this post and not mention Judith Miller is beyond me.&lt;/b&gt;

Because we care and you don't. At least not about the same things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>How anyone can write this post and not mention Judith Miller is beyond me.</b></p>
<p>Because we care and you don&#8217;t. At least not about the same things.</p>
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		<title>By: Religion and the Presidency &#124; NeoConstant</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-64950</link>
		<author>Religion and the Presidency &#124; NeoConstant</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2007/08/13/lets-not-sully-that-narrative-with-anything-as-picayune-as-facts/#comment-64950</guid>
					<description>[...] religious who have irrational beliefs, or who make decisions based on what we might call faith. No, that’s an equal-opportunity (and a human) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] religious who have irrational beliefs, or who make decisions based on what we might call faith. No, that’s an equal-opportunity (and a human) [&#8230;]</p>
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