Also, I don’t know if you caught the news, something about an NIE report, how Bush may have misled the nation, again? Don’t know if you heard that one.

“That’s when you start going hmmm…because they (conservative bloggers) reach people who are influential…that’s what I mean about influential. Talk about a direct IV into the vein of your support. It’s a very efficient way to communicate. They regurgitate exactly and put up on their blogs exactly what you say to them.”
–Bush advisor Dan Bartlett

“Meet the regurgitation chorus. So much more reliable than the MSM.”–Andrew Sullivan

Now will come all the posts about how the libs conspired to forge the NIE report to undermine Bush. I can hardly wait. Paranoia runs deep…

How “Bush may have misled the nation again”? “Bush” is the one writing the NIE, right? The one that said in 2005 that Iran was actively working on a nuclear program?

Weeeelllll, let’s see… have a look at this:

“Thomas Fingar, one of the three principal authors of the new and controversial National Intelligence Estimate, makes my point for me — or at least he made the point in 2001.

Yet Fingar concludes in the new NIE report that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in the fall of 2003. He reaches this conclusion despite knowing that Iran today is obtaining highly enriched uranium by producing it IN PLAIN SIGHT.”

Mr. Fingar had a slightly different take in July:

“Just four months ago, Fingar told the House Armed Services Committee:

What happened between then — July 11 — and three days ago, when the NIE declared the Iranian regime probably stopped the weapons program four years ago?”

…and you believe ANYTHING these bozos say?

Hush woman! Get thee hie! Bah, I am not too worried, we are talking about the Democrats. They actually used to be good at this stuff, now they know (and mostly correctly) that they do not have to worry. The people who vote for them do so without a thought. Who else could a criminal (who wants to vote, gets it auto here in Iowa after parole), welfare recipients, the babyboomers who are bust because of their lifestyle choices, and anyone who wants to do things which are immoral, unethical, or just socially out (think gays, drug users, torte lawyers as a sampling)?

“…into your heart it’ll creep…”

“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”

Do you ever hurt your back moving those goalposts around?

If so, then Bob Dylan really nailed it. Maliki could sing this to Murtha:

You got a lotta nerve
To say you are my friend
When I was down
You just stood there grinning

You got a lotta nerve
To say you gota helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that’s winning

Who exactly is coming for you?

“…it starts when you’re always afraid…”

Btw, I’ve been lamely quoting Stephen Stills (sorry again, Brad)

Dems will claim credit over and over and over, until their claims become just as accepted as their claims that Bush lied over WMDs, and just as accepted as their claims that Clarence Thomas harassed Anita Hill, and just as accepted as their claims that higher taxes equate to more tax revenue for the government.

If Iraq continues to go well, Dems will become the heroes of Iraq. The eventual OIF War Monument will prominently credit Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi for leading us to victory - and I am not being sarcastic. It truly will - just as many of the 9/11 monuments either blame the U.S. for being attacked, or attempted to blame the U.S. before sufficient outrage prompted changes in the original designs.

D’Souza is a friend, of sorts, very likable fellow. But, yeah, the book gets out there. He thinks American conservatives and militant muslims actually have much in common, and should join up to smash “the Left,” whoever that may be. He equates gayness with murderers,etc. Most disheartening, he doesn’t even attempt to argue on spiritual grounds, sees religion as a means of controlling people. Pretty cynical stuff, but some may think he’s just being a cold-blooded truth-teller.

We were a tremendous help to the war effort behind the scenes. Sure, we had to do some public posturing, for political purposes. But behind the scenes, we were invaluable friends to President Bush, and to the troops, and to the Iraqi people. Behind the scenes,where there were no cameras, we went above and beyond the call - courageously and untiringly, again and again - for Pres. Bush, for the troops, and for OIF and the Iraqi people. OIF could not have succeeded without our tremendous, beyond-the-pale efforts. In fact, without us, i.e. if somebody else had been in our posts, we truly suspect OIF would have failed. We are just so grateful we could do some things for our boys and girls in uniform.

I am already sensing this story line, in current media, even before the historical rewrites come out in hardback.

Please.

“…think it’s time we stop.”

And when those of us who are concerned about actual countries who are actually threatening us, who have supplied terrorists with funds and weapons, who have taken hostages at our embassy, and are killing our soldiers in Iraq, we’re being unreasonably wary.

Who is truly paranoid, eh?

Have you ever actually read your “name” and tried it? Give it a go big guy… or tulip boy, or girl/boy, or… whatever. Well, I initially thought to give it a shot. I realize my error. Carry on jimfocus.

You’re right, there’s lots of irony in the song. Stills was also admonishing the demonstrators to not overreact and get paranoid. Stills was/is a devotee of Alinsky–if you practice civil disobedience don’t be outraged when you get cracked over the head, expect it. Stills is actually fairly conservative in his views. Very underrated artist. His favorite line in the song is people carrying signs, mostly saying “hooray” for our side–an unprecedented shot at some of the demonstrators from the rockocracy of the times.

Re: Bush, it’s becoming more apparent by the hour that Bush was less than truthful at his news conference, plus Cheney and he kept up the jingoistic rhetoric on Iran when they were both told in August that the intel was showng a much different situation.

Do you neocons realize how silly you look complaining about the NIE now? Why would anyone take you seriously on this subject ever again? You guys have been wrong on everything for the past 5 years. That’s Bush-Cheney’s problem, too. They have no cred left. Is this the de facto end of the Bush Adm.?

I prefer “Big Boy.” “Tulip Boy” second.

When neocons quickly run out of arguments they always come with the ad hominen. No game.

You hot temptress, you. Did you draw your eyebrows on today?

Uh, btw, you have an argument? No.

I’m not sure MSM punditry would survive the experience. Their failure to make Hillary! less than agonizing in one-on-one interviews comes to mind.

But to have them attempt to coopt success in Iraq… you must realize that we’re talking cognitative dissonance on a scale to level continents here.

Neo… they can’t stand up for success. Not because success is upon us, or even a nearly sure thing - but because if they allow that U.S. involvement in Iraq to be anything short of economic exploitation or some weird flavor of patriarchal white colonialism they’ll lose their base. They would violate The Narrative ™

LOSE the base it. Not merely inspire luminaries like Mother Sheehan to jump into political races.

The Left’s opposition to Iraq was never about outcomes. It was first and always about protecting their fantasy world where America is the first evil , plus the spice of BDS.

Other peoples’ children, as my mom used to say.

Did you guys even hear what Patraeus said this week?

Please. How stupid.

My my…pretty amazing how some can get all lathered up over Clinton and at the same time slip right into the codependent children of Bush blaming the intel community and making excuse after excuse for the actions of one who has done more to damage our credibility in the world.

And you call yourselves therapists?

That explains it I guess.

You should be worried.

Try being like me or Laura, if you can (NOT!) Like when Laura just keeps repeating over and over and over, “It’s not working, it’s not working, it’s not working,…” Sometimes you can throw in another repetition, like “you make me laugh, you make me laugh, you make me laugh,…”

See, that’s how you argue!

Heebie, jeebie. (Fatty Arbuckle)

Did I mention that I’m an undercover ATF agent? And a social worker? I did? When?

Okay, well, I also used to play concert piano! For Procul Harem! Yeah! Bet ya didn’t know that, smart guys! Oh, And I’m a physio too, just like neo!

Hey, hugga muggah! (Jean-Paul Belmondo)

Whoop de doop. (Babe)

Ho, ho! (Bugs Bunny)

Asdfhsdfg! (From some movie. I mean filum. Look it up.)

I agree, it seems it’s change-the-subject time in high gear here in neoneoconland. Also, when they do talk about it, they zero in on the substance of the NIE, when the world and everybody else has rightfully pounced on Bush’s disengenuousness and ginning up war fears this fall when he knew there were potentially big holes in the story. His cred is gone.

Stumpley, I’m going to the link now and I will read it, promise.

“I understand the issues.”–Pres. Bush, 2 days ago

Do you even realize that today we find out the millions more are missing in Iraq? That the Iraqis have what, about 4 weeks left to make some progress in this session and they aren’t moving the ball down the field, AT ALL? Did you hear what Patreaus has said about the “window” of opportunity?

No, you are too busy cheering for war and MORE WAR, regardless of what CAREER PROFESSIONALS

You want war?

As long as it doesn’t cost you or your family anything. Bloodlust.

Hubris and ego makes a very deadly cocktail

You know, we could change Iraq/Iraqis to “the U.S. Congress”, and Patreus’ name to that of any historian/economist who has been sounding the warnings about our unfunded entitlements bomb, and it would fly like a bird.

Just saying.

It’s almost Christmas. Will our troops be home from Kosovo then?

Cheers.

NY Times: A CIA officer, an employee at the agency for more than 20 yrs, including several years in a clandestine unit assigned to gather intelligence related to illicit weapons, was fired in 2004. This agent says that in the spring of 2001 that Iraq had abandoned a major element of its nuclear weapons program, but the agency did not share the information w/ other agencies or w/ senior policy makers. This agent says that just like in the Plame case, he brought unwelcome information on WMD in the period prior to the Iraq invasion, and retribution followed.

Sound familiar. Gee, how many people have officially come out to debunk bush and how many remain? Hmmm

Can he fire the whole intel community? I wonder. Well, there is that little National Security Directive.

But seriously, we should defer to her when she characterizes something as “stupid,” because in that area, at least, she has extensive firsthand experience.

Desperate stuff. I know it’s been a bad 3 days for you, so I’ll try to understand the extreme, out of control anger of, some of you.

BTW, got any arguments? At least Stumbley’s got me thinking over several things, and he makes me laugh, too.

I was not ATF, that one really hurt.

Right, Occam, and the lame insults you cons constantly throw are so adult–give me a break–LOL

And you guys aren’t making many astute points lately.

“Wait, what was wrong with the NIE? I think it’s going to come out that we got some evidence or information about their program.

What is wrong with refining Intell based on new and current information?

Besides, it’s an Estimate. It’s not evidence in a court, it’s a best guess. The previous best guess, along with Amadinejad’s rhetoric, said that Iran was building nukes.

New info will show that he’s bluffing. That is the way the system is supposed to work.

It didn’t work with Iraq. Do you know why?”

As information reveals itself, national policy gets refined. I just don’t see the problem….

Of course we are betting our lives that the current NIE is correct.

How would you like to be in charge of betting American lives? Instead of just being poo-flinging monkeys?

Debunking her nonsense (see yesterday’s thread re Cheney and money) takes time, during which time she’s produced two more risible points. Rebutting that rubbish, and thereby iInterjecting a note of rationality, is like trying to cut off the head of the Hydra: two more heads appear each time.

That’s why I’m focusing on the source, with ad feminam criticisms, which in general I would not do. The arguments themselves aren’t worth the effort to debunk.

I think everybody gets frustrated with their opposition, especially someone as feisty and relentless as Laura, she’s a fighter. I was the first to post on this thread and I sorta predicted this would happen.

One thing I see here from the war supporters is a strong, sometimes intense patriotism attached to your views, which is fine. What many of you fail to acknowledge is that the opposition is just as patriotic as you–yet you guys insist it’s your province alone. From that comes an attitude that your opposition can just be dismissed. I might be overstating in an attempt to be brief, because I could go on. You go through this thread and honestly assess who’s been insulting and childish.

Another quick point, if a post so annoys you and you think so little of it, why do you respond?–just stick to your points if you feel it’s the truth. Or, why even let it get to you? If you are secure in your positions? I know my posts can be annoying, but I try not to be mean or polemic, but gently teasing and sarcastic, funny even? Sure. And I get a charge out of it when one of you gets a good one back at me.

And look what you’ve done to poor Laura. You’ve got her wearing her fingers out typing in ALL CAPS, because lower case just doesn’t have the persuasive power she feels she’s been lacking up till now. But does she give a rat’s ass? Heck no! Atta girl, L! Keep typing those upper cases at em!

Now go away, or I will mock you again. Ha ha.

well jim, because the NIE is irrelevant, we all know the preponderant truth about the world we live in, from 14 year old thai girls beheaded on their way to school, to the wackos running iran right now, please don’t just hide behind the border and obfuscate the truth of their enthusiastic interest in wmd programs for the purpose of putting the westerners in their place, especially the jews; how dangerous the world is right now is partly because of kgb gangsters who are more smug than scared, because the russians have always been a little dumb… dumb makes a good dhimmi. mo’s hoards figure they have time and numbers on their side..
i trust john bolton a lot more than anybody left of center…. that’s why you should take me seriously jimmi dhimmi…..

Boo-yaa! (Henry Winkler)

– drive you away, or silence you? I don’t understand. I mean, if your secure in you’re positions? Because really, your insecure, aren’t you? But look at Laura and I — nothing shakes our rock-thick confidence, not “logic”, not “facts”, not “changed conditions”, nothing! Or, as Laura would say, NOTHING!

No game.

BTW, I’m still LOL

Right now I think Bush and the neocon advocates left in the adm. have blown it with the revelations of the NIE and how long they really knew about it. I agree that the accuracy is somewhat secondary, but what about their incompetence in managing the information?

Why do so many of you still support Bush, aren’t you angry at his incompetence?

cue the clone troll

Either they’re (1) right, (2) wrong, or (most likely) (3) pretty much useless with respect to ME WMDs. I tend to favor (3).

History has borne that out. I wouldn’t blame the President for anything other than keeping any of those bozos employed.

I just got through reading through the link you gave me–that site is fairly amazing, lots of issues raised re: the NIE–it has got me thinking in another direction, I’m going back to reread.

You also raise the same questions I have, in a way, about these estimates. You’re right, why should Bush trust these same people over and over. But also, why is he leaving these same people in place? He is the Chief Executive. After this latest dust-up how do you trust any of the ME intel we’re getting?
We’ve been told by Bush that he’s greatly strengthened our intel capability since 9/11. Really?

Anyway, after going to the belmont site I have to concede you some points–but I still hold to the other issue, Bush-Cheney’s mishandling of the changing intel on Iran–why in the world did they let McConnell get up there 3 days ago? He killed them.

Thanks for linking me to that site.

No, I wasn’t arguing with you. I simply fail to see you with an argument. Some odd opinions, often based on the best new leftist ideas, meaning… not really interesting, correct, or in-line with being focused. I don’t care what you say, and won’t debate. It would be like debating drug use with a cocaine addict, pointless and with no points of mutual belief to cover the gaps, the results are meaningless. No, I just realized that your name was really off, then went off on a tangent. Tulip boy and big guy? Odd, but… it’s not my call… now.

Don’t worry, I thought it was funny. BTW, the takes I’ve been posting really aren’t that far out. They’re, fairly mainstream. I try to include facts and quote informed sources. Like I’ve said over and over, when you neos & war supporters run out of argument (which is pretty fast) you often assume dismissive poses and hurl insults. Many of you make no valid points whatsoever, which your post demonstrates. And the anger and bitterness is off the charts.

Also, unfortunately, I’ve talked to a lot of addicts in my time, cocaine and otherwise. Almost all have great insight into what they’re doing, hate their addiction, but they can’t stop.

Just to finish that thought: — not like me, for example, or Laura. We can stop any time we want to. Well, I can anyway. I just don’t want to … yet.

So you see, I’m not like some poor, addicted troll, who hangs around blog comment threads because he’s never got over a schoolyard obsession with taunting — like you neocons who can only hurl insults, not real arguments like these. And by the way, all my ideas are normal — not like yours, which are wierd. And look what a funny, sunny guy I am — I always think what you say is funny! Always yukking! Not like you neocons with your anger and bitterness. See, that’s because I’m a normal, regular guy, right smack in the middle of the mainstream, that’s me. Normal. I’m different from you. Really.

(Please, let me have the last word….)

But silly, irrational ramblings delivered in a childish style are irritating. Also, the transmogrification from earnest, concerned mom into addled leftist idealogue raises suspicions that the former persona was merely a vehicle for the latter.

Having everyone working on the same team for the same goal, doing whatever they do best seems like a no-brainer. (Can’t win by military might alone? Why not have all those inclined to non-military solutions sit it out and preach failure… makes sense to me. We’re missing half our team.)

I don’t mind the thought of the Dems taking credit if they can, if it gets them doing something other than constantly undermining our effort for political gain.

I know people who get mad at the idea but I think it’s important to remember that the issue is more important than domestic political advantage and take the high ground. Let the other guys wallow in the mud.

With doublethink you don’t need such rationalizations for seemingly contradictory behavior or beliefs, Occam.

As for the Democrats co-opting the surge, I think they will have to make the same decision that the Sunnis made. Which is whether they should keep fighting and killing Americans, or whether they should join together as a team to benefit themselves. The Sunnis got hammered by Al Qaeda, so that made them change their minds about their pride and conceit.

I don’t see anything that has hammered the Democrats hard enough to make them lessen their preening pride and conceit. So while the Democrats can co-opt, they won’t decide to.

Better that we go it alone with our presentation with half our team missing than to have the team show up and embarass us.

i blame Bush for keeping those bozos alive.

Bush’s problem has always been because he hasn’t killed enough people. That is why he gets all that Bush Hitler accussations. You think Hitler was called out when he was slaughtering people in the 1930s? No, cause he killed enough people. Stalin killed enough people and you didn’t hear people calling him the End of Humanity from the Left.

Do you somehow believe, L, that just because you believe you speak for all those thousands of military families about Iraq, that you are somehow then… humble? As opposed to the military families and Americans that dont’ agree with your politics, that is.

It is always better to find fault in others, than to deal with your own problems that you can’t solve, Promethea.

It is why Saudi Arabia exports religious war. It is also why Europe and Hollywood exports anti-Americanism.

Maybe Bush should tap their phones and find out who they really are.

I heard that his Stasi was so tied up in Iraq with executing babies and American malcontents that they have had to strip down the wiretapping teams to skeleton numbers. Hauling and incinerating all those bodies at night is a major manpower intensive business. Even with Haliburton contracted to do the disposal of the remains.

It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another

-Lucretius

Prom.,
I am as I’ve described myself, no bull. I notice a lot of you demand extensive bio material from some, but tell little about yourselves. Why? Also, as far as my views being bizarre, I’m pretty much where 60% of military families are right now–the country is rejecting the neocon orthodoxy and the Bush’s incompetency overwhelmingly.

Swordfish.

Blowfish.

I think the reason people on this board demand extensive bio material on you, is because for a former federal agent, you dont sound very professional. As a matter of fact Jim, you come off like a sullen teenager. Besides the snark and snide It seem lately, your argument on why neocon policy is the wrong policy boils down to an argument from popularity. All my friends parents let them smoke dope, why shouldnt I?

“I’m busy taunting you about the polls every chance I get! How do you stand it?””

Now, I ask you; Is that anyway for an adult to conduct himself?

Your grounded, go to your room.

people don’t respect and appreciate how much has been accomplished… some of my posts will appear to be disjointed rambling if your perspective is incapable of connecting dots (remember the dots?). recognizing that waterboarding is not morally acceptable, but preferential to accepting mass murder in certain cases, is not a “game”. LOL all you want, you are still just the good dhimmi do nothing crowd… a little solidarity in the war against america’s real enemies would go a long way.

Sally’s still very, very angry.

Stumbley, I’m still plowing through the belmont post a second time, but so far he’s raising some interesting possibilities, especially why Iran stopped in 2003, if they really did. Get back to you.

Actually not. Mildly amused, though. Looks like the “clone troll” is just making your “points” a little more obvious, and maybe a little better. No wonder you feel put down.

Keep on plowing though, Jimmy. With our “bad week” and all, we enjoy the amusement. Try a good old boogah boogah, why don’t you?

Blowfish indeed.

Blackfive recently gave us a open source intel analysis of Qods Force operations in Iraq

I recommend people read it if they wish to gather some intel on Iranian operations.

You weren’t the one that said that neo-cons demaned biographical information?

I talk with authors, writers and columnists all the time, left, right and center, and I have identified some of them here–they don’t have a problem with me, I’ve known these folks for years.

And, you neocons on this site can’t make a consistent argument. All you guys ar doing is engaging in petty personal attacks (I predicted this is what you guys would do on this thread), which confirms what a terrible week it’s been for you, and how discredited the neocon orthodoxy has become. Most of the country was with you, now most of it is against you. Anyone who disagrees with you is juvenile, stupid, etc–as childish as it gets. It’s very funny to watch you guys act like, well, neocons.

Sorry Sally, you are obviously very, very angry–happy trolling.

Yeeeh Haaah! Indeed.

cue the clone troll

Yeeeh Haaah! Indeed.

Hey, that’s more like it, Jimmy. You were sounding a little down there a while back. No goomba goombas, no yee haws. Now you’re getting back to your old, rational self.

But, yeah, I must be pretty angry — you little therapist, you. And you’re pretty sorry.