Missing the Big Story in Iraq
Look at this Ralph Peters column and Michael Totten’s latest report from Fallujah as companion pieces. They tell the same tale, that of the discrediting and defeat of terrorist forces in Iraq.
Peters focuses on the meagerness of US press coverage of this most important story. Totten fills in for that scarcity.
Why isn’t Totten’s work being picked up by one of the major papers? If the New Republic is so hungry for news from the front that it published the inferior (not to mention mendacious) work of one Scott Beachamp, surely similar publications should be able to find a place in their hearts—and their pages—for the far superior “you are there” reporting of Totten.
Yes, I know the basic storyline actually has been covered by the MSM. But in a sort of whisper. It has been given nowhere near the prominence it should.
As Peters writes:
The greatest media story of 2007 was the one you never read (unless you read The Post): The year was a strategic catastrophe for Islamist terrorists – and possibly a historic turning point in the struggle against al Qaeda and its affiliates.
Why is it that our own media is so reluctant to spread the word? In some ways, of course, that’s a rhetorical question. We know the answer, at least in part: hatred of George Bush, reluctance to print anything that would reflect poorly on the Democratic Party and its candidates, and even a sort of general press reluctance to print good news (“if it bleeds, it ledes”).
An even greater factor is that the MSM itself took a stand, and a strong one at that: this war is bad and by definition unwinnable. Whether this press position originated in its liberal politics and disdain for anything George Bush might do, a generalized pacifism, an adherence to a Europe-centric worldview, and/or use of the favored “narrative” (see, I can be postmodern, too) about Vietnam as the template for all conflicts involving the US and insurgencies, the fact is that once that position was taken and hammered home over many months and years, to turn back would require a massive course correction.
Why do I harp so relentlessly (and perhaps tiresomely) on the press, and on the war? After all, it’s practically disappeared from the subject matter of the 2008 Presidential campaign, a telling fact in and of itself about how things have changed in Iraq. Does anyone doubt that, if things were still going poorly there, we’d be hearing no end of it?
Because it’s very important, that’s why.
If you read Totten’s work, you’ll see all is not sweetness and light in Fallujah. Corruption still exists, as does some violence. But his report on a city that until fairly recently was a synonym for the some of the most bloodcurdling events in the entire postwar Iraq period (and that’s saying quite a bit) is staggering in the contrast it presents with those bad old days.
Totten writes:
Most of the Marines I spoke to were stunned…especially those who had previously served in Fallujah when it was still the catastrophically violent city most Americans think it still is….[Fallujah is] a paradise compared with, say, a shantytown-packed Mexican border town like Juarez or Tijuana.
Let that sink in for a minute.
And there’s much more. Here’s what Joint Security Station (combined Iraqi police and US Marine) commanding officer Second Lieutenant Gary Laughlin had to say when Totten asked him what surprised him most about the current state of the city:
“The most surprising thing,” he said, “is how friendly people are. I expected people here to just hate us after Al-Fajr. You kind of have to take it with a grain of salt, though. Some of them really just want the Iraqi Police to take over, and they only smile at us to be polite.”
That has to be right. Some unknown percentage of Fallujahns are still disgruntled with the American presence. But there is almost no surface-level evidence that this is true. Very nearly 100 percent of the people who live there are friendly.
You can be cynical and skeptical about this if you like. In fact, as Totten’s piece indicates, the Marines themselves are careful to maintain a hefty dose of wariness because—as their signs point out—“complacency kills.” But it’s an amazing and very encouraging fact that the situation in Fallujah has improved so much that these signs—as well as special classes in counter-complacency for the Marines stationed there—are necessary at all.
Whether this change is a sometime thing or a lasting one, it represents a situation so much better than before, and one that turned around so relatively quickly, that this should be a very, very Big Story indeed.
[NOTE: the title of this post is meant to be an ironic commentary on the title of Washington Post journalist Peter Braestrup’s seminal work on how the press got its reporting of the Tet Offensive in Vietnam so wrong: Big Story.]
[ADDENDUM: This is another column of interest on a similar theme. And for the opposite side, see this and this.]
“The most surprising thing,” he said, “is how friendly people are.
They are, as other Iraqis, but what triggered the area is those pictures that Backwater guys, and the reactionary collective punishment that US forces did in the area which triggered and killed more civilians and destroyed a town with almost 250,000, this created a recruit ground for terrorists and their mad ilk’s.
Great post as usual, Neo. Thought I should let you know that in your addendum all three of your links are set to go to this very page.
did in the area which triggered and killed more civilians and destroyed a town with almost 250,000, this created a recruit ground for terrorists and their mad ilk’s.
Apparently not. Wishing for it won’t make it happen.
BTW, talking about
Ralph Peters he is the man with conversational views and naivety, you may remember his article “Blood borders” in this article he went far beyond the limits which can be viewed as creating Warlords, Tribes conflicts, chaos and Terrorists in ME which give US the lead to targeting all the conflicts and terrorists all around.
So the point is Ralph Peters should be treated with cautious
as far as his views about ME
Ore by Michael Totten ” A Plan to Kill Everyone”
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/01/a-plan-to-kill.php
More about Ralph Peters
“In place of the civil war that elements in our media declared, I saw full streets, open shops, traffic jams, donkey carts, Muslim holiday flags – and children everywhere, waving as our Humvees passed,” he recalled.
“Even the clouds of dust we stirred up didn’t deter them. And the presence of children in the streets is the best possible indicator of a low threat level.”
So, why is the U.S. press full of reports that Iraq is spinning into chaos?
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/5/121111.shtml
Isn’t it great to have the US marines spreading the Feminist Matriarchy all around the world! Soon, Iraq will be a miserable place for men just like the USA! Iraqi Men, you get to look forward to legalized misandry, an anti-male, anti-father culture that will aim to destroy the traditional family in your country. Before you know it, your country will be a pussified/feminized mess just like the USA! Your women will become masculine and unbearable just like American Women. Thanks US Marines! Hey Marines, you do realize that you’re actually destroying the few remaining patriarchies of the world and replacing them with the same socialist/feminist matriarchy found in the west. One thing I know for sure, Women are definitely smarter than men. Marines are actually fighting for their own enslavement to the feminist matriarchy. Incredible! Congrats to Feminists for biting the hand that feeds & protects them … and getting away with it!
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Ralph Peters he is the man with conversational views and naivety, you may remember his article “Blood borders” in this article he went far beyond the limits which can be viewed as creating Warlords, Tribes conflicts, chaos and Terrorists in ME which give US the lead to targeting all the conflicts and terrorists all around.
Are you arguing that arabs like the borders drawn artbitrarily by the British Empire after WWI?
It’s Margaret Bell’s goofy borders that split up and consolidated a lot of tribal land in Iraq!
I met Ralph Peters a few times when I was in the Army and I’ve read his books. He is a thoughful, educated and sincere retired officer and gentleman.
Jonson, you’re raving. I went through a crappy divorce too, get over it. Life gets better….
Good post Neo. I love it when you give the media hell!
I have been interviewed before and I have been party to events that were later reported (no, I’m not telling) and I assure you, they never get anything right not even the names and places.
I can further tell you that I knew more than a few journalism and ‘communications’ majors in college and they were uniformly the stupidest and least curious people I have ever met.
Um gray, it’s Gertrude Bell, not Margaret. And, it wasn’t HER carving up the countries in the Middle East but rather against HER suggestions, carving it up the way it was done by countries in the west, supplying their puppet leaders and setting the stage for part of the misery we see today in the Middle East.
TE Lawrence and Bell both had much to say about how the ME would never be peaceful again.
Why is it that our own media is so reluctant to spread the word? In some ways, of course, that’s a rhetorical question. We know the answer, at least in part: .
It is unethical to report news that would bolster the morale of your enemies and discourage your allies, Neo.
the fact is that once that position was taken and hammered home over many months and years, to turn back would require a massive course correction.
They never disagreed with Bush’s staying the course rhetoric, on principle. It just so happens to be that even if an enemy has things right on principle, you can’t and shouldn’t admit it in public for morale reasons. They are still the enemy; enemies that must be destroyed. And it makes your job of destroying the enemy harder if you take their side. So why would the media help Bush when their job is to do the exact opposite? To turn back and alter their course is to admit defeat to the enemy.
If you read Totten’s work, you’ll see all is not sweetness and light in Fallujah. Corruption still exists, as does some violence.
The best you can expect from the media is that they ignore you.
To expect anything more would be like expecting a tiger to refuse to eat meat, Neo.
You can be cynical and skeptical about this if you like. In fact, as Totten’s piece indicates, the Marines themselves are careful to maintain a hefty dose of wariness because–as their signs point out–”complacency kills.”
Tea meets and greets are nice but one can never forget that this is war, not a social party.
And the point to war is to kill the enemy, not have fun.
I assure you, they never get anything right not even the names and places.
What else do you expect? Is Hitler supposed to now, all of a sudden, devote his life to saving Jews instead of exterminating them? You cannot expect a man’s fundamental behavior to change when you have not changed the nature of a man.
Whether man or woman, there is no use expecting one’s enemies to be on our side. If they are, that’s a bon[u]s, but usually they aren’t.
I can further tell you that I knew more than a few journalism and ‘communications’ majors in college and they were uniformly the stupidest and least curious people I have ever met.
You can’t run a propaganda and psychological warfare operation with people that keep opening their mouths to ask inconvenient questions about classified information that they don’t have a need to know.
Not having curiosity is a virtue in the media.
Btw, anything that our side releases for public consumption and could be beneficial for individuals to know, is classified data to the media. So they have no problems covering things up, modifying data, and not telling the whole truth. That’s how intel and counter-espionage operations are run, for the most part. Deception is the point of the game.
You libs (and everyone else) should check out this speech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEDBMhVusk
This guy is right on about the threat we’re facing.
“A turning point in America, certain things said that would not have been acceptable to say a few years ago are received with thundering applause today. United American Committee’s Jim Horn addresses 1,800 people at the National Federation of Republican Women convention September 2007″
Gertrude Margaret Lowthian Bell Old Baghdad “Khatun” in iraq before, the American made their new Khatun for them in Baghdad “Meghan O’Sullivan”
Motherless those with low IQ mind hard to them to understand this tact called Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules
Bonnie, my error, it is “Gertrude” Bell….
However, from gertrudebell.com:
Adventurer, archaeologist and arabist, Gertrude Bell (1868-1926) was a counsellor to Lloyd George and Winston Churchill, and a confidante of sheikhs. To T E Lawrence she was ‘Gerty,’ and he was her ‘Little One.’ She cut a unique figure in the turbulent politics of the Middle East at the turn of last century.
Instrumental in defining modern Iraq’s borders, and in choosing its first king, she was generally considered the most powerful woman in the British Empire.
Wikipedia says:
Bell’s influence led to the creation of a country inhabited by a Shi’ite majority in the south, and Sunni and Kurdish minorities in the center and north respectively. By denying the Sunni Kurds a separate, autonomous area or state, the British tried to balance the heavy predominance of Shi’ites in Iraq and keep control of the potential oilfields in their territory.
And that’s what we’ve got now.
The sources I find on the web just flat out say: “She drew the map of modern Iraq”.
TE Lawrence and Bell both had much to say about how the ME would never be peaceful again.
Sure, not without a Caliphate….
it is unethical to report news that would bolster the morale of your enemies and discourage your allies, Neo.
But its moral to full the media with ugly pic’s and dead bodies of Iraqis showing the horrifying people because of the war, or cheering live launching of Tomahawk missiles on civilians in Iraq just as a game and internments for the viewers who pay FOX, CNN and others, but when pictures of captured US pilots on TV its against UN regulations, POW regulations and human rights and its immoral and a big crime.
Wonder how many standards and personalities some holding with their naive souls?
Truth: American made their new Khatun for them in Baghdad “Meghan O’Sullivan”
“Wonkette” is not a credible source. She’s an imbecile and, by her writing, clearly holds arabs in contempt.
hard to them to understand this tact called Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules
So you don’t like the British Boundaries of Iraq?
You want us to leave arabs alone and save them at the same time.
Adventurer, archaeologist and arabist,
One thing missing here A SPY!!
cheering live launching of Tomahawk missiles on civilians in Iraq just as a game and internments for the viewers who pay FOX, CNN and others, but when pictures of captured US pilots on TV its against UN regulations, POW regulations and human rights and its immoral and a big crime.
Certainly, those are our pilots You’re an arab, you understand….
Don’t pretend to be naive yourself.
“Wonkette” is not a credible source. She’s an imbecile
Adviser Has President’s Ear as She Keeps Eyes on Iraq
One thing missing here A SPY!!
Of course: The Turks lost the war and the Caliphate was divided up among the victors–just like arabs.
From Truth’s link:
“who colleagues say is instrumental in shaping Mr. Bush’s views: Meghan L. O’Sullivan, the 36-year-old deputy national security adviser for Iraq and Afghanistan, and the most senior official working on those nations full time at the White House.”
Well, at least she’s not a weird old hippy. What’s the problem?
certainly, those are our pilots you’re an Arab, you understand….
Hah,
Very clear racist and very sick. Well done dude the supporter of freedom and democracy and saving Iraqis from tyrant regime hah?
Abu Griab specks more of your mind then. Yes those Arab!!
Tell us what God gave you more to be better than Arab? One leg more , no one eye more, no open mind, oh yes full of sickness views
Abu Griab specks more of your mind then. Yes those Arab!!
No, those sick people are in military jail.
Of course we ask for our pilots not to be beaten and humiliated, they are our pilots.
Well, at least she’s not a weird old hippy. What’s the problem?
Read my comment well, I did not having problem, go read what I said.
WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM?
You trying hardly manipulating the words and views here
Gertrude Margaret Lowthian Bell Old Baghdad “Khatun” in iraq before, the American made their new Khatun for them in Baghdad “Meghan O’Sullivan”
OK. That is a good thing if she is advising Bush and has an understanding of Arab culture and politics like a “Khatun” in court.
Read my comment well, I did not having problem, go read what I said.
I’m sorry if I didn’t understand your message.
>Tell us what God gave you more to be better than Arab?
God gave us the Bible.
Satan gave the Arabs the Koran.
The results speak for themselves.
neoneocon, Are you aware of what comments made here with regards of discriminations of humans and race?
Are you supporting his view?
What action then you should do to show this guy his limits and stop his sick views with disgusting words about other race and humans.
God gave us the Bible.
Satan gave the Arabs the Koran.
I don’t think that is Right: The Koran has many, many Biblical and Christian ideas. It recognizes Jesus (Issa) and Moses (Musa) as Holy Men.
Just this past Christmas, Shi’ite and Sunni alike came to Christmas services to show solidarity with Iraqi Christians.
You’re comment is unhelpful and untrue.
But if you’re talking about Kurdish Yezidi, or Yaresan, that’s a different issue….
Gray: Do you have any idea what this Muslim Isa is supposed to do when he comes back to earth?
Here is what the Muslims believe will happen…. please I hope this Isa never comes down.
Sorry, I have a full understanding of Islam and I will speak the truth about it.
According to Surah 2:177, A Muslim must accept all these things:
Quote
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets
The Last Day is the most important thing after belief in Allah.
The Last Day consists of the coming of the Imam Mahdi along with the appearance of the Muslim Jesus. For the Last Day to come, the Muslims must go to war and slaughter the Jews
Quote
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
But the Muslims don’t stop there.. once that’s accomplished:
Quote
al-Mahdi will receive a pledge of allegiance as a caliph for Muslims. He will lead Muslims in many battles of jihad. His reign will be a caliphate that follows the guidance of the Prophet. Many battles will ensue between Muslims and the disbelievers during the Mahdi’s reign…
Harun Yahya, a moderate and very popular Muslim author refers to the Mahdi’s invasion of numerous non-Muslim lands:
Quote
The Mahdi will invade all the places between East and West.
In today’s world.. non-Muslims are not killed or forced to convert if they pay the Jizya in Muslim lands and agree to live as dhimmis. Well apparently even that wonderful option will be eliminated during the Muslim Last Day. I’m assuming the pigs in this quote means Jews.
Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656: Narrated Abu Huraira:
Quote
Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 1368) from The Reliance of the Traveller, the classic Shafi manual of Islamic jurisprudence states:
Quote
“… the time and the place for [the poll tax] is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus’ descent (upon him and our Prophet be peace) …”
Ayatollah Ibrahim Amini clearly articulates this vision:
Quote
The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.
Sheikh Kabbani, Chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America clearly articulates the Islamic perspective regarding Jesus’ evangelistic role when He returns.
Quote
Like all prophets, Prophet Jesus came with the divine message of surrender to God Almighty, which is Islam. This verse shows that when Jesus returns he will personally correct the misrepresentations and misinterpretations about himself. He will affirm the true message that he brought in his time as a prophet, and that he never claimed to be the Son of God. Furthermore, he will reaffirm in his second coming what he prophesied in his first coming bearing witness to the seal of the Messengers, Prophet Muhammad. In his second coming many non-Muslims will accept Jesus as a servant of Allah Almighty, as a Muslim and a member of the Community of Muhammad.
Al-Sadr and Mutahhari, likewise articulate this same expectation:
Quote
Jesus will descend from heaven and espouse the cause of the Mahdi. The Christians and the Jews will see him and recognize his true status. The Christians will abandon their faith in his godhead (sic).
What do you think all these Muslim paramilitary enclaves in rural areas all over the USA are training for?
They’re preparing for the call to Jihad by a future Caliph.
And I’m supposed to be SENSITIVE TO THEM?
The Sunnis and Saddam loyalists got tired of having their women and goods confiscated by the al qaida types and the Americans began to attune to Iraqi/tribal cultures – COIN, small wars mentality where technocracy does not automatically rule, where mingling becomes the essence of patoling, where trainers and trainees live together and fight together, where language and customs are learned out of respect and not manipulation. Human Terrain Teams are deployed, their thrust being anthropological/cultural assessment. It is a major shift in war fighting, theory and practice with General Patareus (sp) the driving force.
Gray: Do you have any idea what this Muslim Isa is supposed to do when he comes back to earth?
You’re not quoting the Q’uran, you are quoting some extreme interpretations of it.
However, there is no one correct interpretation: Mullahs and Imams have different interpretations–you clearly do not have a full understanding of Islam.
We aren’t fighting a religious war. I didn’t join the Army to spread The Gospel. Our troops aren’t in Iraq to spread Christianity.
The US military is not a Christian organization, we leave our pets at home.
I’m quoting from Bukhari Hadith.. that and Muslim Hadith are the most well established. When Muslims want to make sense out of the Koran (since the Koran is a context-less mess) they consult the Hadith and the Sira for contextualized and meaningful spiritual and legal advice. You do know this right? You are trying to correct me, so you are aware of the various texts and their place in the Islamic religion, right?
It’s all there in black and white… there is no “extreme” interpretation.. it says quite clearly and quite plainly what it says.
Don’t kid yourself and try to whitewash it.
If the Muslims ever succeed in establishing a recognized Caliphate. the Muslims will act on these Hadith.
That’s their major objection about what Bin Laden did.. it’s not that he attacked us… it’s that he attacked us too soon and without a Caliph to provide authority.
And we are fighting a religious war. That’s the big secret no one is supposd to say.. but we are. A war the Muslims started 1,400 years ago and will never end.
This war is nothing new.. and neither is our (America’s) involvement in it.
Fighting against Muslims was one of the keys that exposed the problems wtih the Articles of Confederation and prompted the Constitutional Convention. The US needed a Navy very badly because the Muslims were attacking our commerce in the Mediterrean Sea.
“In 1786 Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli’s envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman or (Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves. Jefferson reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:
The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman (or Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven”
Nothing has changed. Other than they went into decline in the 1800s but now they have flourished again with the money we give them for oil.
they consult the Hadith and the Sira for contextualized and meaningful spiritual and legal advice. You do know this right? You are trying to correct me, so you are aware of the various texts and their place in the Islamic religion, right?
Of course:that’s what I said: You’re not quoting the Q’uran, you are quoting interpretations of it.
Hey, I’m fighting “to defend the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic”, that’s what my oath said:
The First ammendment of that Constitution has the “Establishment Clause”. I’m not fighting for or against a particular religion.
The Hadith are not interpreations of the Koran. they are the sayings of the Prophet. They go way beyond what is just found in the Koran.
So anyway, I hope I defended my opinion sufficiently. This religion is a brutal, anti-human system.
Go read your Bible well before acusing others Holly book
Some passage from New Century Version Bible:
The Hadith are not interpreations of the Koran. they are the sayings of the Prophet.
No, not at all.
It’s not a settled issue in Islam: some believe the Koran is enough and others look to the ‘sunnah’ or way of life of Muhammed and put less weight on hadith… Some believe the Hadith as written and others don’t.
Islam doesn’t have one authority, there are entire schools of disagreeing Islamic Jurisprudence.
You just have a big ol’ axe to grind.
They go way beyond what is just found in the Koran.
Yeah, that’s what I’ve been saying….
Truth: A valid rebuttal would be to indicate where Islamic authorities state that Jihad no longer applies to our world.
A false rebuttal, what you did, is to change the subject.
Changing the subject does not refute me, though it is one of the very common tactics that Muslims employ when the spotlight is shined on their religion.
The other tactics you might use are
1 – State I took things out of context
2 – State that the Koran/hadith/siras real meaning does not translate into English and could only be properly understoood in Arabic
3 – State the translation into English is flawed
4 – State that the topic is not in Islam at all and is a local custom.
Y’know Vince, when we succeed in Iraq and it is a prosperous, stable country that is not a threat to us, it’s still going to be a majority Muslim country.
You can’t be both anti-Muslim and pro-victory in Iraq.
We are partnered with, training, and counting on many devout Muslims there.
We’re not there to convert them: You’re going to have to set aside your anti-Muslim attitudes if you are going to support our efforts….
>Y’know Vince, when we succeed in Iraq and it is a prosperous, stable country that is not a threat to us, it’s still going to be a majority Muslim country.
Thank you Captain Obvious
>You can’t be both anti-Muslim and pro-victory in Iraq.
That’s your platitude, I don’t need to accept it.
>We are partnered with, training, and counting on many devout Muslims there
Thank you Captain obvious
>We’re not there to convert them:
Straw man.
>You’re going to have to set aside your anti-Muslim attitudes if you are going to support our efforts….
That’s your platitude.
Do me a favor and take your condescension and direct it towards someone else.
I’m not Anti-Muslim. I am Anti-Islam. Islam is an ideology. Muslims are people.
If the Muslims of Iraq form a consensus that Jihad, Dawa and Sharia no longer apply it will be in spite of Islam and not because of it. We will have succeeded in our bold and risky experiment.
The jury is still out regarding Iraq. Yes the Sunnis rejected Al Qaida but it wasn’t for our sake. They rejected AQ because the AQ was slaughtering them!
So it is not I who has to change my totally justified suspicion of Muslims.. but rather it is they who have to change.. They are the ones with the problem. It is not a problem to notice this and to talk about it.
You know what you can do with your Political Correctness?
Watch this video and then tell me Islam is not of the Devil
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1637.htm
Wrong video… I meant this one…
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1646.htm
Satan’s representative demanding child sacrifices.
Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astal: Holiday Offerings Teach Us that Fathers Need to Sacrifice Their Sons and Sons Need to Sacrifice Themselves
Following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astal, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on December 27, 2007.
Yunis Al-Astal: The offerings slaughtered by the pilgrims teach us how fathers should sacrifice their sons by encouraging them to wage Jihad for the sake of Allah. They also teach us how young people should sacrifice themselves. Our forefather Ismail, who was also a prophet, said: “Oh father, do what you are commanded,” and he sacrificed himself. The holiday and the offerings remind us of the need for fathers to sacrifice their sons and the need for sons to sacrifice themselves.
Fixed the links in the addendum.
neo: Sorry for ranting in your comments 🙂
Someone explain to me why I can’t understand a thing that “truth” says.
Totten’s report is fabulous.
It shows what happens when a photographer and journalist reports what he sees with the intention of understanding it and helping other people understand it.
“Have a plan to kill everyone you see” is shocking, and he finds it shocking, but instead of going off on a self-indulgent offended joy ride he asks, what does that mean? Why is the sign there? What is it like for soldiers and Marines to have to stay ready all the time, even when nothing happens?
It’s a fabulous report.
Back to the reliability of Ralph Peters reports and view specially with his visit to Baghdad claiming back that Iraq ‘Civil War’ a Media Myth, let’s take a look to this maps Changing Baghdad Showing the Ethnic violence that gripped the Iraqi capital in the spring of 2006 has changed the city.
So if the civil war is a myth as Ralph Peters believes, so what’s happening then there on the ground?
Who drove those people in Baghdad?
Why 1.8-2.0 Million Iraqis refugees inside Iraq and 2.0-2.5 Millions Iraqi refugees outside Iraq, who did these crimes?
Iran?
Shiites?
Sunni?
Americans?
…… is it THIS!
“I’m not Anti-Muslim. I am Anti-Islam. Islam is an ideology. Muslims are people.”
WTF does this mean?
The definition of a Muslim is a believer in Islam, just as a Christian is a believer in Christianity.
Think of it this way:
I’m not anti-Christian. I am anti-Christianity. Christianity is an ideology. Christians are people.
Great post, Neo. You know why Totten’s work is not being picked up by the MSM. He challenges their narrative of Iraq as “another Vietnam.”
““I’m not Anti-Muslim. I am Anti-Islam. Islam is an ideology. Muslims are people.”
WTF does this mean? ”
It means I’m against the Islam that is expressed in the Koran, Hadith, and Sira.. particularly that section of it that states that Muslims must rule the world and are free to use any tactic in order to do so.
Amoung the various sects there is no disagreement in that area of Islam. So lest people point out that Islam is not a monolith, in regards to Dar al Haarb, Islam is.
Muslims, on the other hand, are people born or deceived into the religion. As people it can not be said that all of them act in a certain way. Some are more pious than others.
My enemy is the Muslim who believes in spreading sharia beyond the borders Dar Al Islam by any means and those Muslims who support them by means including but not limited to: doing nothing, obfuscating, deflecting criticism away from Muslims and back toward to the Non-muslim, providing an enclave from which jihad or dawa is launched.
Etc…
So Islam is Islam…. Muslims are people who run the spectrum from secular/cultural Muslims to dangerous devout Muslims.
Vince P is forwarding an argument similar to the CHristian doctrine hating the sin but loving the sinner.
Most of the peoples who are now Muslim were once something else. In a few places, like Turkey, Egypt and Iraq, some of the original Christians remain. The Iranians have all but wiped out Zoroastrianism, the once-major religion of Persia.
Over time, some of these conquered peoples may rediscover their pre-Islamic heritage.
I beg your pardon, Neo, for being somewhat off-topic, but the really Big Story of today is in this must-read:
http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000172.html
I am Pro- Human Rights, universal Human Rights, including the right to believe as you choose, or not, and to change your belief.
Islam is currently against Human Rights, both against allowing one to change away from being a believer, and against allowing allowing non-Muslims to live and believe as they choose in Mecca (and possibly not in Medina?).
It took many Catholic – Protestant wars before Christians allowed other Christians “freedom of belief”. And the early US Puritans were NOT among the tolerant.
I hope that devout, Human Rights supporting Muslims will gain accendancy in Iraq, with tolerance between Arab & Kurd Sunnis, and between Shia and Sunni.
Bush is looking like he’ll be getting a “B” by next year (less than 5000 Americans killed).
Hey Truth, any note on Abu Ghraib in 2002 or before? Do you really think torture there went up or down in 2003? I think it was reduced by some 99%, which is pretty good but not perfect.
Sort of like imperfect America, better in fact than any other reality.
Jesus Christ, but that must have gotten someone’s attention. Yes, the Surge is working. But I believe it is not a surge of boots that is doing the work so much as it is a surge of hope.
Let just add this, whatever theory may we hear from vast media and with all reports some prizing surge some don’t, but there few facts working behind this war from the start.
1- Iraq as a country and as nation was brought to its knees due to inhuman sanction for 13 years people in Iraq seeing the death and no hope to they can continue their journey in this world peacefully they suffer and suffer they were patient for so long on hope this not can last there is end to it, but their hope day after day months after months year after year faded.
2- Before that Iraqi as nation fought for 8 years of bloody war which cost millions life and left widows mother kids hopeless and suffer fro war that thought to be push the evil from the east the united because their love to their land they did lesson to that lunatic Mullah and his ugly head who like to bring live to back age and drive people like sheep on their land in name of Islam.
3- After 8 years Iraqi nation again bombed and destroyed for its lunatic leader sin they suffer and lost more lives and can found their loved ones aftermath of that war no one tell them where are they but the new that they under the sand buried in their shelters as if earth quake in the desert taken them but its not God well it’s a military weapon invented to create and taken their lives but the lunatic leader a live.
So if a nation like Iraq suffered and went through all this and after four bloody years of occupation with chaos every where they left prisons in their homes waiting for the death at any moment, suddenly we hear YES it’s a surge working we wining , what a win we got?
How many lives this adventure cost how many Mums, kids suffer year there are 5 million Iraqi orphans now and more suffering.
The nation now under the fatigue of wars , a fatigue of chaos, a fatigue of suffering that why surge work, you using them as a cloning media in library now they just don’t know but you cheering your surge on a lake of blood.
Jesus Christ, but that must have gotten someone’s attention. Yes, the Surge is working. But I believe it is not a surge of boots that is doing the work so much as it is a surge of hope.
Let just add this, whatever theory may we hear from vast media and with all reports some prizing surge some don’t, but there few facts working behind this war from the start.
1- Iraq as a country and as nation was brought to its knees due to inhuman sanction for 13 years people in Iraq seeing the death and no hope to they can continue their journey in this world peacefully they suffer and suffer they were patient for so long on hope this not can last there is end to it, but their hope day after day months after months year after year faded.
2- Before that Iraqi as nation fought for 8 years of bloody war which cost millions life and left widows mother kids hopeless and suffer fro war that thought to be push the evil from the east the united because their love to their land they did lesson to that lunatic Mullah and his ugly head who like to bring live to back age and drive people like sheep on their land in name of Islam.
3- After 8 years Iraqi nation again bombed and destroyed for its lunatic leader sin they suffer and lost more lives and can found their loved ones aftermath of that war no one tell them where are they but the new that they under the sand buried in their shelters as if earth quake in the desert taken them but its not God well it’s a military weapon invented to create and taken their lives but the lunatic leader a live.
So if a nation like Iraq suffered and went through all this and after four bloody years of occupation with chaos every where they left prisons in their homes waiting for the death at any moment, suddenly we hear YES it’s a surge working we wining , what a win we got?
How many lives this adventure cost how many Mums, kids suffer year there are 5 million Iraqi orphans now and more suffering.
The nation now under the fatigue of wars , a fatigue of chaos, a fatigue of suffering that why surge work, you using them as a cloning media in library now they just don’t know but you cheering your surge on a lake of blood.
neo, I asked but you neither responding nor took action what I asked, sham on you if you live with people who are racist hatemongering driving this space.
providing an enclave from which jihad or dawa is launched.
Then go after OBL and his family like what you doing in Iraq you had 50,000 in camps, some of those are family members who have done nothing, why them OBL family still their touring US and other part or word or their long tail of money there in Saudi. Did that need a genius brain to know this?
Oh yes they are our friends keep them signing billion of dollars deals with small bribe to princes they are good.
We have camps right here in our country.
What’s with your petualant demand for perfection? It’s never going to happen.
I have hard time accepting arguments such as “Why didn’t you attack country X instead.”
Because of all the ME countries , Iraq was the most politically acceptible nation to invade.
The idiocy of Saddam was like a sort of begging to be attacked.
So we went into Iraq first.. and boy oh boy listen to the baseless charges “Illegal war” “War criminal”. “war based on lies” etc…. and this is from a war that will probably be the war wth the most UN justification.
Can you imagine all the emotional reaction had the US invaded another country!!
And secondly, you’d be against that war no matter what.
So your argument is disingenious.
>Vince P is forwarding an argument similar to the CHristian doctrine hating the sin but loving the sinner.
Well I saw it more like, I hate NAZI’ism.
Were all German’s NAZIs? No of course not.
Slightly off the topic of the proximate posts, but putting the thread back on its original topic…
Last night I watched “Under Fire,” a 1983 movie about journalists covering the fighting in Nicaragua.
Very enlightening, in a Rathergate kind of way. Long story short, the “journalists” fall in love with the Sandinistas (I know you’re surprised), fake a photograph to help them win, and then cover it up. Closing shot of happy throngs, flags waving, etc.
No mention that the Sandinistas were Castro and the Soviets proxies (that got left on the cutting room floor, I guess), but lots of indication that Somoza was our proxy. The communist revolutionaries were, of course, sweetness and light, and merely bored opponents to death with Marxist ideology, whereas government forces brutally killed all and sundry.
But most telling of all was the frank, matter of fact, and unapologetic admission that journalists make up stories to advance left-wing goals.
No wonder Rather was stunned to be caught out. It was business as usual.
Vince P, stick to the point I made, try to restrain your though and DO NOT change the subject, answer straight the point rise accordingly about your hateful views.
So did you know who changing the subject NOW?
Truth:
1. Please use correct English…and learn to spell.
2. A good friend of mine – female, as it happens – was put up against a wall in Iran and shot dead. Her mistake? Starting a medical college for women.
She was both a PhD and an MD from Harvard Medical School. trying to do something that would help Iranian women. And men too when you come down to it.
Now I should retain sympathy for Islam? The excuse for her death was that she violated the Qu’ran rules for women.
Nice religion, eh?
“Islam is the stupidest of the monotheisms”: Schopenhauer. I have to agree with that Kraut.
ONe of the biggest contributions the Internet makes to society is that it acts as a flytrap for all manner of bigots, criminals and deviants.
How many criminals get nailed after either organizing or bragging about their crimes via email or on the Internet?
In politics, people like neo-neocon destroy any potential political career they may have by welcoming hate-mongering nonsense like the idiocy spouted by Vince P and many other Muslim-haters here, while banning people like me, who simply voice liberal views and answer ad hominem in kind with wit.
I really appreciate that neo-neocon banned me from posting here, because the record of that will last forever, as will the record of the people here who haven’t been banned after calling for killing all Muslims and overthrowing the government by violence and so on.
Had neoneo not banned me and others, she could argue that this is simply a free forum and she can’t control what people say.
But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.
Should she ever harbor any thoughts of seeking political office or a government position, her embrace of anti-Muslim hate will be all right here for anyone to see at the blog she controls.
Thanks neo-neocon!
Bunkerbuster:
You’re welcome, jerk.
There…I have become EVIL.
A nice feeling, all in all.
Good Ole Charlie, first apologies to you and other friends here for my English mistakes.
Secondly Khomeini and his ilk’s were an Iranian Shiite Muslim, and Ayatollah is Iranians a Shiite title.
Shiite Muslims account for less than 10% of the Muslim population, and are therefore not representative of Islam. Also you need to understand that not all Shiite same as Iran Shiite, may be your commanders on the ground in Iraq tells the truth about what I mentioned.
May also pick your attention that your administrations support Iranian /Iraqi Mullah Al-Hakim who now the Iraqi women and Iraqi Christians killed because of this lunatic mullah and he enjoy his time of US support for him and his brigade “Bader Force” Iran crated and trained Militia!
But I feel the sorrow in you about your poor friend with the crimes done for here by those criminals also who hold the US embassy hostages, but keep in mind what 25 Millions in Iraq suffering and some killed because of REGIM CHANGE WAR?
Is it same sorrow for Arab/Iraqi or THEY ARE DIFFERENT?
ONe of the biggest contributions the Internet makes to society is that it acts as a flytrap for all manner of bigots, criminals and deviants.
We had to find something to fulfill that function between Democratic National Conventions.
Sorry. Couldn’t resist.
Say, Bunkie:
If you were banned, and are gloating about how being banned makes you such a Good Person…
WHY ARE YOU COMMENTING HERE?
Tom Grey – Liberty Dad Says:
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Islam is currently against Human Rights,
It’s not Islam, those leaders in charge of Islamic nations, those some of them US friendly regimes who are violating currently against Human Rights, like Al-Saud, Al-Subah, Al-Thani, Qdaffi, Hussni Mubark and on and on
“But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.
Should she ever harbor any thoughts of seeking political office or a government position, her embrace of anti-Muslim hate will be all right here for anyone to see at the blog she controls.
Thanks neo-neocon!”
———————————————
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I used to post here too and was blocked because I was too “liberal”. Why not just have your audience understand the “comments will be posted after approval of the site” instead of blocking dissenting opinions? This act of blocking those who don’t tow the line, and allowing the outrageous anti muslim spew from those like Vince P speaks volumes about how much you truly value (or more likely not) a dailogue. As I have said under my previous posting name (Laura), you people are only interested in hearing yourselves think.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Gray, even though we didn’t see eye to eye on a number of things. The military is not fighting a Holy war Vince. Vince, by saying that you don’t accept Islam and that it has nothing to do with accepting Muslims is just like Coulters quote “we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them all to Christianity”. This sort of sentiment is counter productive to our long term security interests in the long term, as it drives moderate Muslims into the shadows when they’re lumped into the “islamofascist” stew.
Good Day.
So “Laura” was “Bonnie” all along, and got “bumped” because she was “too liberal.” Funny, I thought it was because she just didn’t have a clue. Also funny, that she had oodles of time as “Laura” to post inane comments ad nauseam.
…and if they’re “banned,” how come they’re still showing up?
BTW, it’s “toe the line.” As in bare-knuckles boxing. See “Far and Away.”
“Had neoneo not banned me and others, she could argue that this is simply a free forum and she can’t control what people say.
But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.”
Exactly! You are perfectly fine with Vince P skinhead remarks yet ban people like myself (posting on a different computer) as well as others who dissent? How democratic is that? Perhaps it’s not supposed to be democratic. Perhaps it’s more a matter of reflecting in your comments what YOU feel comfortable with. I find it curious that you allow some of these comments at all without at least making a boundary statement to those who’s posts are consistently full of hate and no substance.
Stumbley, they have been blocked for weeks. My computer IP address was blocked altogether. I am posting on a different computer.
Looking back over the previous comments, I grabbed a fabulous book that I read in the Fall called “desert queen”, which is a biography of Gertrude Bell. I found it very interesting that after all the work she did to try and bring the Kurds, Sunni and Shiites together, in the end, her loyalty lied with her country in backing a Faisal (her choice) and the distince diffences with Al Saud. It’s interesting as well to see how fragile the construction was even at that time. The Brits counted on the tribes to help to defeat the Turks with promises of sovereignty, only to be held back by a mandate that Britain have controlling interests in their oil fields.
It’s really interesting to re read this book and recommend it to others, for whatever it’s worth.
Stumbley, they have been blocked for weeks. My computer IP address was blocked altogether.
Good job too, neo.
Blaura, I suspect you weren’t blocked for being too liberal, but for being too inane. There’s a difference between the two, although it’s sometimes hard to discern.
Blaura, it’s neo-neocon’s blog. She makes the rules. She can exercise control over what gets posted here. She’s the one who says who can post here, and who can’t. And, obviously she isn’t controlling what you say, because you’re here, still blabbering away (on a borrowed computer, to get around her block—nice.).
And, seeing what a twit you are, and how desperate for attention, I could not care less about your book recommendations, or anything else you have to say. Undemocratic of me (heh, heh), but there you are.
Makes me think of certain evangelicals who, because the Bible says that the gospel will be met with persecution, believe that when they meet with persecution that it’s the gospel and not the fact that they’re insufferable jerks.
“…while banning people like me, who simply voice liberal views and answer ad hominem in kind with wit.”
Yesh, this is why you were banned. *simply* for liberal views and *wit*.
Sadly and ironcly the comment went far beyound the mainlines and main topis, suprisisngly neoneo did not control that whatsover.
but let go back to main topic, this artical very intersting one and really rises many important issue in rgards to Iraq.
Doomed international
I’m always amused by the Leftist obsession with calling people racist or whatot who have views that they dont like .
Its not enough to simply disagree with me.. NOOOO , i have to be made into a skinhead or a racist.
Note that I backed up my opinion with detailed facts about the Islamic religion. Did any of these smear-peddlers correct any errors I made? Nope.
Until the Thought Police learn how to actually rebut arguments they dont like, they should get used to having their Police action of labelling people be laughed at.
Get out of my house,
Wonder how many doors kicked and broken through Iraqi’s houses with the did not counted inMissing the Big Story in Iraq
From Truth’s story:
“We are here to help. We are here to search for bad people,” said Lieutenant Harmon.
“The quicker people like you start to help us the better,” he said, adding: “We apologise and we will fix your door. You have my word. But you must try to help.”
We’ve got to be the nicest and most polite “War Criminals” in the History of War.
She got paid for the damage as well….
Note that I backed up my opinion with detailed facts about the Islamic religion.
Not so much. You claimed, in a looney rant, that Koran “was given by Satan”.
I told you you were loopy and unhelpful and then you quoted the Hadith instead of the Koran to prove your point.
I corrected you and called you on that.
I don’t like the dirty leftists and I don’t like the crazy Christian ranting.
It’s unhelpful….
>Not so much. You claimed, in a looney rant, that Koran “was given by Satan”.
It was. Do you honestly think God sent Gabriel to Mohemmed?
>I told you you were loopy and unhelpful and then you quoted the Hadith instead of the Koran to prove your point.
Yeah.. so ? Why do you think that is significant? I dont know why you think you’ve proved anything… I never claimed they were from the Koran.
>I don’t like the dirty leftists and I don’t like the crazy Christian ranting.
It’s unhelpful….
My religion has nothing to do with this. most christians quite happily accept Islam’s lie that they worship the same God of the Bible.
It’s been helpful to call people crazy loopy ranters though, right?
Bunk: But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.
Should she ever harbor any thoughts of seeking political office or a government position, her embrace of anti-Muslim hate will be all right here for anyone to see at the blog she controls.
Thanks neo-neocon!
Heyy, Bunk’s back, and loony as ever! And Bonnie too, the terrorist symp!! And both of them whining, in harmony, that they can’t posstt!!! Whyy, mom — I mean neo?! Why does that horrible Vince P get to post and we don’t?!! Huh?! Whhyyy??!!!
Ah, well. It’s not good to feed the trolls, I know (especially for the trolls themselves, since it only worsens their already neurotic, juvenile, narcissitic obsessions), but that bit about how shutting down, on her own blog, driveling and boring attempts at heckling from trolls will end neo’s future political career forever is too funny to let pass. Because you just know that what Bunker’s doing (like so many of these psychically damaged lefties) is projecting his own worst fears upon his enemies — as though everyone fantasizes, as he so obviously does, of a future career with power and patronage, and the adoring huzzahs of the masses. Can’t speak for neo, of course, Bunker, but — no, they don’t.
Nothing upsets the anti-america crazies more than someonne who isn’t apologitic when discussing the enemies of America.
On a more substantive note:
I think Vince P has made some valid points, though I don’t, yet, agree with his conclusions. Just to be clear about where I’m coming from, I’m not a Christian, nor even a theist. Nevertheless, I think this struggle has some definite religious overtones, more so even than did the struggles with two of the past century’s evil ideologies, fascism and communism (and both of those had religious overtones as well). Note first that the “bloody borders of Islam” aren’t just those abutting the Christians and Jews, but the ones next to Hindus, Buddhists, and any other non-muslim belief group they encounter as well. But, second, note that the real existential threat to Islam doesn’t stem from any traditional religion but simply from the modern world itself. The modern world, of course, is a largely secular world, based upon science, technology, and freedom — but if we enlarge the notion of “religion” to encompass any system of deeply held beliefs and values, then the modern world is based upon such a system as well, with reason, efficiency, and the sanctity of the individual at its core. Such a world, of course, represents a problem for all the great religions, arising as they do from simpler, traditional societies, based primarily on faith — but it represents a special threat to the youngest, most violent from birth, and most brittle of those religions, which is Islam. Whether such a religion can co-exist with the modern world is a very real question — I don’t think we know the answer yet, but I don’t think the question can simply be waved or wished away either.
I think those are good points, Sally.
I am, in fact, a Christian.
Whether such a religion can co-exist with the modern world is a very real question – I don’t think we know the answer yet, but I don’t think the question can simply be waved or wished away either.
Well, if the modern world makes it too painful not to coexist peacefully, they will find a way to re-interpret it to make it less painful–
like Mormons did….
The real reasons behind better security are 1) the cooperation of Iran; 2) the freeze on all paramilitary activity by the Mahdi Army of Muqtada al-Sadr; 3) the anti-al-Qaeda Sunni groups (the Anbar Awakening Council) that currently number approximately 30,000.
Speaking from his new home in Damascus, where he has fled terrorist bombings in his own country, the young man added: “I long for the days of Saddam Hussein. If you stayed away from politics, you lived a decent and respectable life. Nowadays, you are a target for terrorist attacks whether you are a grocer, a barber, a painter or a politician. Nobody is safe in this Iraq.” He wrapped up: “My mother’s generation used to go out in Baghdad wearing mini-skirts in the 1950s. Do you think they, or your people in their 20s, can do that today without being accused of being infidels?”
So who killing these Iraqi, who is behind killing of women in Iraq because of their dress or not cover their head which never been a case in the modern history of Iraq?
Look for Mullah supported by thier iranian Militia?
This is the cooperation of Iran in Iraq.
Sally,
“bloody borders of Islam” aren’t just those abutting the Christians and Jews,
Very clever,
Jews killed in France in Eastern Europe and finely the biggest crimes ever in the history in Germany, no such crimes done to Christians and Jews at this scale by Muslims in the last 1400 years, if you try to deform the history its your choose go for it, but the abutting Jews killed and massacred by their abuttingChristians.
Further East ask your HERO Dr. H. Kissinger what he did in Cambodia, Philippines, and South East Asia what crimes done their the history recorded all, we do not learn history from Sally’s mouth.
Trying to change the subject doesn’t help, “Truth”. Try reflecting instead.
The modern world, of course, is a largely secular world, based upon science, technology, and freedom –
Did you read the history of Islam?
Did you ever hear those theorist and Islamic philosophy in Medicine, Mathematics in physics and Geography, astronomy so none so forth?
Did you know the medical sciences toughs in Europe in 1700 based and referenced to those Muslims Sciences and Muslim scientists?
The fact is there is no conflict whatsoever what you list of the modern world today based upon science, technology, and freedom and Islam as a religion.
Good try Sally,
There is no change on the subject here, like your follow VP doing, but I am putting the facts in front of your rambling that can not be deniable
The real reasons behind better security are 1) the cooperation of Iran; 2) the freeze on all paramilitary activity by the Mahdi Army of Muqtada al-Sadr; 3) the anti-al-Qaeda Sunni groups (the Anbar Awakening Council) that currently number approximately 30,000.
OK, sounds good. What’s the problem?
From the article it seems like the author just wants more Shi’a killed.
As I said, I don’t expect Syrians to support Iraq becoming stable and free. It would cause trouble for well-off Syrians.
I’ve always wanted to visit Damascus, maybe someday I will be able to go as a tourist….
Speaking from his new home in Damascus, where he has fled terrorist bombings in his own country, the young man added: “I long for the days of Saddam Hussein.
Coward! Stop longing and go fight for your country. If you are smart and resourceful, maybe you can even be the next Saddam.
Truth, the fact is, like it or not, that Islam does not get along with *any* of its neighbors. Americans tend to only see and accept claims that it’s something that *we’ve* done. Sally brings up the question, what about Hindus? What about people who aren’t Western and aren’t American? Which neighbor does Islam get along with well or at all?
Frankly, I’d love an example of that because it would give a lot of hope that peace and coexistence is possible.
And Vince is right when he says that *we* want to believe that it’s not Islam. We want to believe that we can all get along. I sincerely hope that Vince is wrong.
Show us some examples of tolerant Muslim society.
You said:
“Did you read the history of Islam?
Did you ever hear those theorist and Islamic philosophy in Medicine, Mathematics in physics and Geography, astronomy so none so forth?”
“Did you know the medical sciences toughs in Europe in 1700 based and referenced to those Muslims Sciences and Muslim scientists?”
The answer? Yes. I’m entirely aware that the middle East has been a source of mathematical and scientific thought.
In 1700 or earlier. Waaaaay earlier. The region gives us our numbering system and a great many foundational concepts. Most of them, it seems, before Muhammad arrived and took over. That golden age? Where did it go?
What I’d like to know is… What has Islam done for the world lately?
The fact is there is no conflict whatsoever what you list of the modern world today based upon science, technology, and freedom and Islam as a religion.
That’s not entirely true.
You know that Salahfis reject many modern ideas, technology and culture. They wish to turn back the clock to the days of The Prophet.
You can’t have it both ways….
As I said, I don’t expect Syrians to support Iraq becoming stable and free. It would cause trouble for well-off Syrians.
Gray not just Syrians fears the democracy’s and freedom’s birth and raising in Iraq, but all neighbours around Iraq fears same in some degree or in another, the only differences some are friendly regime to US more than Syrians that may be your reasons putting Syrian only in your list.
OK, sounds good. What’s the problem?
I second your statement Gray it’s sound good and OK, I wish none of Iraqi killed after GW announced “mission Accomplished” but what some Iraqi’s neighbours have interest beyond what US went to Iraq to help Iraqis, that make US lost her way and directions in Iraq which in the end we seeing Iraqi paying very high price for this war instead of thrown tyrant regime and start building the country.
I’ve always wanted to visit Damascus, maybe someday I will be able to go as a tourist….
It should not be a problem Gray, Syria more save that Lebanon or Algeria or Sudan, go and do it you never regret it, enjoy your time and the hospitality of Arab and from Muslims Christians, and Jews there.
See you soon
I long suscribed to the flypaper theory, that several thousand blooded jihadist veterans from Afghanistan, Kamir, Chechyna, Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza would come to Iraq to fight US troops. Our men volunteer, why wouldn’t they? These men were capable NCO types, able to recruit, train, lead, lay ambushes, maintain and use all manner of small arms and explosives, maneuver, plan, anticipate, feint, attack, establish grids for fire suppression, etc. There has been serious attrition in their ranks since 2003 and they are not at all easily replaced. The very professional fight they put up in Fallujah for instance, cost them roughly 1500 men. The Left would have us believe that Abul the shoe clerk from Cairo is able to leave Egypt one day and in a week’s time be in Iraq and able to bring expertise to a war zone equal to that of our troops. What an absurd notion but it has traction amongst those who listen to pundits and civilian analysts who have not been in the fight, or any fight for that matter. The tide has clearly turned as evidenced by the jihadist being only able to lash out at civilians, Iraqi civilians in markets, mosques and recruting stations. Iraqis are saying no to the thuggery and are not buying into the myth that they are valiantly engaging the imperilist infidels from America, who by the way are in an unprecedented manner learning about the culture they are enmeshed with and respecting it. The Saddamites offer nothing to the Iraqi people either and can provide no security or national development. Al Sadr knows the corner has been turned too and there is enough stability and growth that he can be easily replaced once killed and he will not be missed. I don’t buy into the notion that the current level of stability exists by the grace of Al Sadr. No wonder the Dems are not pushing Iraq anymore as a campaign issue.
You know that Salahfis reject many modern ideas,
I argue all the time that if we got people in ME educated and knew how to right and to read in the right way (Not Saudi Madrash) we will beet these “Salahfis”.
If you ask some Iraqi around what’s their country doing in 1960 , 1970 ( UN report counted 85% of Iraqi educated at that time) the society was all rejecting these bad and old fashion Mullah and those Mullah was humiliated there as most Iraq went to school , high school university get a job and live their life, but again now days what we seeing these turban Mullah running high each one trying to arrange his house to get a group of people with some support from outsider to be A Mullah which will end like Nasarallah in Lebanon and Stat inside State case these are Mullah creation society and thinking.
Synova
like it or not, that Islam does not get along with *any* of its neighbours. Americans tend to only see and accept claims that it’s something that *we’ve* done.
May I ask you how many Americans worked and working specifically in Saudi from 1960 if not earlier till criminal lashed from his land and run the disgusting show using name of Islam?
Ask any American who worked in Saudi what tells you?
Is it Muslims bad? Is Islam bad? Did they threaten them because they are Christians?
Please let be very clear here westerns touring ME, before in 1900 and after you hardly find accidents of killing because they are “infidels” this ME this Muslims this Islam what change is many factors from inside the Arab/Muslims nations and some factor from outside ME both worked together give birth what we seeing now of hatred and killing whatever name of label used for that.
But if US went to Iraq without those BIG mistakes they done withouth listen to normal Iraq (not those Thugs poppet who living on you tax) Iraq will be a start in ME but as I said none of these surrounding love to see the rise of Star.
Show us some examples of tolerant Muslim society.
I don’t know what to say, you can change society in one day or month, Noah Freedman went to Iraq and produce nation building as if there is no nation this lets start from scratch and all falling down.
But may I ask you if you go inside US (Presumably you are US citizen) did you far walking talking making friends from Muslim community there?
the only differences some are friendly regime to US more than Syrians that may be your reasons putting Syrian only in your list.
That is true, but not the only reason–Syria is fairly stable (if not friendly), but both democracy and radicalism are threats to that stability.
…. in the end we seeing Iraqi paying very high price for this war instead of thrown tyrant regime and start building the country.
Saddam gave Iraqis something to die for. I think the new Iraq will give people something to live for.
Remember, we never wanted to ‘build a country’. We aren’t very good at that (but we are learning).
I can tell you right now that soldiers I know have come back from Iraq with a greater understanding, and appreciation, for Arab culture and hospitality–and food!
I think there will be long-lasting benefits from this conflict that people haven’t realized yet. Benefits that will prevent future conflicts….
enjoy your time and the hospitality of Arab and from Muslims Christians, and Jews there.
See you soon
Thank you. Someday I’ll bring my family: My wife really wants to visit the Middle East as well.
I argue all the time that if we got people in ME educated and knew how to right and to read in the right way (Not Saudi Madrash) we will beet these “Salahfis”.
I hope that American efforts are helping that. At the lowest level, soldiers are building schools and donating books and protecting teachers in schools.
Mullah running high each one trying to arrange his house to get a group of people with some support from outsider to be A Mullah which will end like Nasarallah in Lebanon and Stat inside State case these are Mullah creation society and thinking.
I understand you concern, but trust me, the America soldiers, officers and diplomats over there understand that concern.
They are not stupid and we absolutely do not want to see Iraq end up like Afghanistan after the Soviets: That won’t happen.
Did you read the history of Islam?
Did you ever hear those theorist and Islamic philosophy in Medicine, Mathematics in physics and Geography, astronomy so none so forth?
Granted. Now in the interests of saving a great deal of time, could we perhaps confine the discussion to discussing the Islamic contributions of the last millennium?
Oops.
Should have read:
“Granted. Now in the interests of saving a great deal of time, could we perhaps confine the discussion to the Islamic contributions of the last millennium?”
PIMF.
Truth: …what change is many factors from inside the Arab/Muslims nations and some factor from outside ME both worked together give birth what we seeing now of hatred and killing whatever name of label used for that.
Yes, something changed. Many things changed, actually, but they all come under the heading of the spreading and globalization of the modern world, particularly if we include in that the sudden influx of oil wealth to what were largely desert tribes of the Middle East. This enormous expansion in wealth within a formerly undeveloped region, with all the access to a foreign technology, including especially of course weapons, that brings with it, combined with the steady, implacable pressure of Western, but really just modern, culture, through globalized communications, transportation, and industrialization — that would be enough to dislocate any tribal culture. But overlay that with a religion that has historic difficulties with any deviation from written texts and a proclivity toward violence from its inception, and you have the problem that Islam presents today, not only to its “infidels” but to its own believers as well.
Yes, “Truth”, once, when the world was a much darker place, Islam was among its lights. That makes it all the sadder that it’s been unable to keep pace since then.
sudden influx of oil wealth to what were largely desert tribes of the Middle East.
May I add this please to clear your above statement?
from the time the oil discovered and in ME by Britt’s and then the Americans specially after Roosevelt meeting Al-Saudi the west enjoying first low prices of oil and continuous flow of oil which serve your development and building your country your societies for decade opposite what we see more and more corrupts leaders in ME specially Al-Saudi and most the gulf states who they interested in collecting and building their monarchy wealth and build their huarache of princes and kingdom both these option used to downgrading the society under these regimes, by left the society uneducated living on level of poverty far from the wealth that their land produces and restricting and spreading culture of fear and restrictions and adapted version of Islam that far from the soul of Islam but the enforce it to protect their regimes.
As for Iraq and Egypt may be Syria in thee places things are different but the counting wars after 1948 and conflicts with friendly regimes in the regions make things complicated.
So those wealth from oil spent on weapons yes but let be frankly who seduce those kings and bribe them to sing millions and billions of weaponry?
I addition to that how many American/ Britt’s served those kingdoms regimes and protecting them just to continue the flow of dollars.
That not mean in ant way there is problem to have western investments and companies employees working in ME but when its come as a tool that the regime protected by its their native people and their citizens here the problem set, and doubt that those American who worked in the desert land did know this fact and they knew that the wealth got to those tribes who help in 1900 before and after to get control of the desert.
Its same as the tyrant regime in Iraq f left withy interfering by US and get control of the oil wealth the scenario will same if not disastrous as he is ambitions to take control of the oil around the region to satisfy his hunger and greedy for wealth.
How many Saudi and Gulf youth went to US universities for decades who went to study and come back the serve the country, ten of thousands of them but because they are regime tribal selected they did care mush about society and its development as much as they get their share from the wealth of oil.
In other word I think the west have failed morally in the eyes of ME nations and people in its relation with wealthy regimes in ME
Truth, we *want* to believe that Islam can live peacefully with its neighbors. In that regard, reports from Iraq such as those from Totten and others who do more than report headlines and car bombs, are quite reassuring.
On the other hand, you ask us not to believe what we can see with our own eyes. And you make excuses and tell us it’s our fault that we notice that the people who set out on purpose to blow up market places, or discos, or train stations, or children, or saw people’s heads off or torture and kill and desecrate prisoners… *our* prisoners are alive, fed, and still have their private parts *and* their heads… that people who *deliberately* undertake war in this manner are Islamic.
Because they are.
They might not be *representative* and I’d prefer to think that they aren’t. But just now in History, the people who undertake war by using terror methods on civilian populations, who routinely do vile things, those people are Islamic more often than not.
Oh, go ahead and charge that America violates the Geneva Conventions. Do you know why no one EVER accuses the people we fight of doing so? Because how do people conform to civilized conventions of war they’ve apparently never even heard of? The people we fight don’t violate one or two elements of the conventions, they systematically, purposefully, violate ALL of them as POLICY.
We are not bigots to notice that this is true.
As I said, military blogs and reports such as those from Michael Totten and Yon and others give me much hope because they show us people with families who aren’t trying to gas women and children in market places, who help to fix local christian churches and work together with others and make friends of our soldiers and who do seem, if they don’t have more sense than the neighbors we know, at least don’t have less.
You say a whole bunch of stuff that is so *right*, Truth, and then you say this…
“…but let be frankly who seduce those kings and bribe them…”
“In other word I think the west have failed morally in the eyes of ME nations and people in its relation with wealthy regimes in ME.”
Yeah, my kids like to blame others for their own decisions as well. Wait, that’s unfair to my kids, who even though they are youths, know far better than to pretend that their actions are the responsibility of someone else’s seduction and not their own desires.
The money did what you say that it did, but it’s nothing more or less than old fashioned self-interest in the absence of effective checks and balances that made it work that way.
The oil isn’t going away any time soon.
Is the West going to be blamed forever for the sin of buying it from you?
On the other hand, you ask us not to believe what we can see with our own eyes. And you make excuses and tell us it’s our fault that we notice that the people who set out on purpose to blow up market places,
I never said that and never meant that.
Do not put your words in my moth, go read my comments well and correct you thoughts.
Criminal are criminals Muslim. Or others there are no differences in fact if some one claiming he is Muslims and do killing innocents people we can not put him and regard him as Muslim according to Quranic teaching.
There was interview with one Iraqi official (some references tells he is Iranian guy) a while ago reported in Alsharq Alawsat newspaper he said there are 23 foreign intelligence agencies working in Iraq!
So what are they doing? God knows
Also from many report those hired mercenaries and snipers and killers from around the world on of them very famous sniper from Yugoslavia working in Iraq.
On top of that those gangs and killers who are looking for the opportunities in lawlessness land which Iraq land.
So all those sharing with the terrorists in the land of Mesopotamian now what we seeing of killing we can not be sure which one have the Iraqi blood in his hand.
can you tell?
Appendix: Names and country of identified suicide bombers in Iraq
This list contains the names and country of origins of 101 known suicide bombers in Iraq.
Three of the known bombers are females. The bombers came from the following countries:
Saudi Arabia (44), Italy (8), Kuwait (7), Iraq (7), Syria (6), Libya (3), Belgium (2), France
________________________________________
Suicide Terrorism in Iraq
(2), Spain (2), Jordan (2), Egypt (2), Lebanon (1), Tunisia (1), Morocco (1), Britain (1),
Turkey (1), and Unknown (9).
Name
Country
1 Adnan, Muhammad Zayd Muhammad (Abu’Umayer al-Shami)
Syria
2 Afalah, Mohammed
Spain (Moroccan)
3 al-’Anizi, Ahmed (Abu Ma’az)
Iraq
4 al-’Anizi, Rawaf
Kuwait
5 al-Abdo, Uruha (Abu Abdel Karim)
Syria
6 al-Ajami, Khaled (Abu Al-Zubayr al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
7 al-Ansari, Abu-Basir
N/A
8 al-Bahili, Naser Bin Fahd (Abu Fahd)
Saudi Arabia
9 al-Banna, Raed Mansoor
Jordan
10 al-Baqmi, Abu Zayad
Saudi Arabia
11 al-Dhaleai, Wail
Britain (Yemeni)
12 al-Dousari, Abu Abdullah (brother of Abu Harith)
Saudi Arabia
13 al-Dousari, Abu Harith
Saudi Arabia
14 al-Dulaymi, Widad Jamil Jasim (female suicide bomber)
Iraq
15 al-Fahmi, Suluh Salih
Saudi Arabia
16 al-Falaj, Adel Bin Ali
Saudi Arabia
17 al-Ghamidi, Ahmed Said Ahmed
Saudi Arabia
18 al-Ghuninam, Sami Bin Sulieman
Saudi Arabia
19 al-Hajari, Mansoor (Abu-Wadha al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
20 al-Halil, Mohammed
Saudi Arabia
21 al-Harbi, Faris Abdullah
Saudi Arabia
22 al-Hijazi, Abi Amama
Saudi Arabia
23 al-Hijazi, Abu Hurayrah
Saudi Arabia
24 al-Iraqi, Abu Ayoub
Iraq
25 al-Iraqi, Yassin Jarrad
Iraq
26 al-Jumayli, Abu Amar
Iraq
27 al-Libi, Abu Abdullal
Libya
28 al-Libi, Abu Bara
Libya
29 al-Maghribi, Abu Osama
Morocco
30 al-Masri, Abu Farid
Italy (Egyptian)
31 al-Masri, Abu Omar
Egypt
32 al-Muhajir, Abu Abdullah
Egypt
33 al-Muhajir, Abu-Zubayr
N/A
34 al-Mutayri, Abu al-Walid
Saudi Arabia
35 al-Mutayri, Haydarah
Saudi Arabia
36 al-Mutayri, Majid Bin Sahnt
Saudi Arabia
37 al-Najdi, Abu Abdel Malik
Saudi Arabia
38 al-Najdi, Abu Na’im
Saudi Arabia
39 al-Najdi, Abu Nur
Saudi Arabia
40 al-Najdi, Abu Ubayda (Abdullah)
Saudi Arabia
(Continued on next page)
618
M. M. Hafez
Name
Country
41 al-Nufay’i, Abu al-Zubayr
N/A
42 al-Qahtani, Abu Ans al-Tahami
Saudi Arabia
43 al-Qarnamri, Hamoud ’Ayad
N/A
44 al-Qarni, Abdullah al-Buhayri
Saudi Arabia
45 al-Qurayshi, Abdul Rahman Sa’ad (Abu Sa’ad al-Makki)
Saudi Arabia
46 al-Rahimi, Ahmed (or Ahmed al-Fawal Abu Hassan)
Saudi Arabia
47 al-Rashid, Abdel Aziz Hamd
Saudi Arabia
48 al-Rashid, Yazid Bin Qayid (Abu Juhayman)
Saudi Arabia
49 al-Rumi, Fahd (Abu ’Amshi)
N/A
50 al-Ruwayli, Farhan Mayes
N/A
51 al-Ruwayli, Jamil Battah
N/A
52 al-Sa’ayri, Abu Mashari
Saudi Arabia
53 al-Saraqibi, Warid al-Qudur
Syria
54 al-Sarmini, Muhammad Sha’aban Abu Abdullah
Saudi Arabia
55 al-Shamali, Abu-Mu’awiyah
Saudi Arabia
56 al-Shamari, Abd-al-Aziz (Abu-Ahmad al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
57 al-Shamari, Abdullah al-Zuba’i
N/A
58 al-Shamari, Abu Abd
N/A
59 al-Shamari, Abu Musab
Saudi Arabia
60 al-Shamari, Fahd Nayef al-Shulaqi (Abu ’Amshi al-Shamari) Saudi Arabia
61 al-Shamari, Khaled Bin Khalaf al-Sulayti (Abu Mut’ib)
Saudi Arabia
62 al-Shamari, Majid Salamah al-Haqs
Saudi Arabia
63 al-Shamari, Muhammad Bin Rahayman al-Tawmi (Abu Salih) Saudi Arabia
64 al-Shamari, Nawaf bin Mishl Al Khalil
Saudi Arabia
65 al-Shamari, Nusha Mujalli Munayfir (female suicide bomber) Iraq
66 al-Shamari, Walid al-Asmar
Saudi Arabia
67 al-Shayi’a, Ahmed Bin Abdullah Bin Abdel Rahman
Saudi Arabia
68 al-Shukri, Salih (Abu Ibrahim al-Makki)
Saudi Arabia
69 al-Subay’i, Nayif Salih (Abu-Salih al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
70 al-Suri, Abu ’Umayr
Syria
71 al-Suri, Abu Khaled or Abu Khaled al-Falastini
Syria
71 al-Suri, Abu Muhammad
Syria
73 al-Suri, Abu Ubayda
Syria
74 al-Tamimi, Abdelaziz Bin Saud Bin Mahmoud al-Gharbi
al-Mufidi
Saudi Arabia
75 al-Tunisi, Abu Samir
Tunisia
76 al-Turki, Abu Abdullah (Azzad Akanji)
Turkey
77 al-Urduni, Abu Sulaiman
Jordan
78 al-Usaymi, Nawaf
Saudi Arabia
79 al-Usaymi, Safr bin Matr
Saudi Arabia
80 al-Utaybi, Abdel Rahman Bin-Shuja (Abu-Awf al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
81 al-Utaybi, Azzam Turki al-Muraybadh
Saudi Arabia
82 al-Utaybi, Muqrin Majid Shayb
Saudi Arabia
83 al-Utaybi, Nashi Dhayb
Saudi Arabia
84 al-Zahrani, Fawaz Hussein
Saudi Arabia
(Continued on next page)
Suicide Terrorism in Iraq
619
Name
Country
85 al-Zayidi, Khaled
Libya
86 Badjoudj, Abdelhalim
France (Algerian)
87 Bazis, Idris
France (Algerian)
88 Ben Amor, Mohammed
Italy (Tunisian)
89 Bengacem, Bellil
Spain (Algerian)
90 Degauque, Muriel (female suicide bomber)
Belgium
91 Goris, Issam (foiled bomber killed by U.S. forces)
Belgium (Moroccan)
92 Khalifa, Mohammed
Italy (Tunisian)
93 Khalifa, Muhammad
Lebanon
94 Marwan Abu Ubeida
Iraq
95 Morchidi, Kamal
Italy (Moroccan)
96 Nassim, Fahdal
Italy (Algerian)
97 Rihani, Lotfi (Abdel Rahman)
Italy (Tunisian)
98 Saadi, Fadhal
Italy (Tunisian)
99 Sa’id al-Hajari (Abu-Hamzah al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
100 Sayf al-Umma al-Mankuba (not the actual name; real name
unknown)
Saudi Arabia
101 Waddani, Habib (Said)
Italy (Tunisian)
I’m consolidating a few of the various discussions I’m having in this one response:
Regarding the great contributions that Islam gave to the world thousands (just joking) of years ago, this is the response I wrote on a different blog to a Muslim who made the same claim:
“The guy said>Secondly, “your techonology”? Thats laughable…the Islamic world was responsible for the greatest leaps in technology, medicine, mathematics, etc.
I said>You stole it all from the dhimmis and pretended it was yours. In any case, after you stopped finding new dhimmis that was the end of Islam contributing anything of value that didn’t involve death to the world”
Things like Numerals and the zero.. the Hindus came up with them.. the muslims appropiated it.. and now everyone thinks the Muslims came up with it.
Regarding the history of Islam, here is what some great minds knew about Islam hundreds of years ago… no one should be fooled that Islam’s problems are new:
John Wesley (1703-91) who wrote,
“Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it…have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind”.
Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica, 1354:
“For these impious people, hated by God and infamous, boast of having got the better of the Romans by their love of God…they live by the bow, the sword and debauchery, finding pleasure in taking slaves, devoting themselves to murder, pillage, spoil…and not only do they commit these crimes, but even – what an aberration – they believe that God approves of them. This is what I think of them, now that I know precisely about their way of life.”.
Patriarch Cyrus of Alexandria, while negotiating the surrender of Alexandria to the Muslims, 640 AD:
“I am afraid that God has sent these men to lay waste the world”.
And prophetically Hilaire Belloc who wrote in 1938:
“Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Mohammedan world, which will shake off the domination of Europeans — still nominally Christian — and reappear as the prime enemy of our civilization? The future always comes as a surprise, but political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial judgment of what that surprise may be. And for my part I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam”.
(See more quotes at my site http://home.comcast.net/~vincep312/islam.html)
And finally, there’s a great book out there that explores the unique inheritance of Islam… it being the religion of the moon god, who is also a war god. The god represented by the Crescent and Venus.
The god mentioned here:
Isaiah 14:12 Look how you have fallen from the sky,
Helel son of Shachar (mistranlated to “Lucifer” in most English bibles)!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O conqueror of the nations!
Helel ben Shachar is a god whose representation is a crescent and a star.
Isiah 14 is about the redemption of Israel, so it’s more than interesting that Isaiah feels the need to include the judgement of the god of the crescent moon and morning star (venus).
The Bible is filled of these Last Day allusions to a horrible spiritual force coming from the desert. The Left Behind money machine has everyone’s attention diverted to Europe.
Anyway , here’s the book, as far as i know, free for reading via google. The stuff i wrote about Isaiah is my own reserach , and not from the book, as far as i know.. it might be in there. but i haven’t read it there (yet)
Moon-o-theism
Published 2006
Yoel Natan
http://books.google.com/books?id=G55KFxBo7ioC&printsec=frontcover
Truth: So those wealth from oil spent on weapons yes but let be frankly who seduce those kings and bribe them to sing millions and billions of weaponry?
Ah, so it’s the sellars of the weapons, not the willing buyers and willing users of the weapons who are to blame?
No. It is the buyers and users who are to blame. Just as it is the “youth went to US universities for decades”, “ten of thousands of them”, who are to blame because they did NOT “care mush about society and its development as much as they get their share from the wealth of oil”, regardless of whether or not they’d been selected by the tribal regime. Just, finally, as it is the “ME nations and people” who are to blame for their own terrible record of active or passive support of corrupt regimes, not to mention the terrorists and extremists in their midst.
Let’s, for once, try to be clear, and let’s drop the silly attempt to forever deflect blame for your troubles onto societies that have simply bought the good they’ve found beneath the soil, and sold goods they’ve been asked to sell, bought with that same newfound wealth. Nobody likes the rotten, corrupt regimes that rule the countries of the Middle East — but, like it or not, its oil makes the region strategically and economically vital, and we have to deal with somebody. Nobody would be happier to find an honest and decent regime, that worked for the good of its own people (and if democratic so much the better), to deal with than the West — why would they not? But, for reasons that have very much to do with the violent tribal rivalries of the region, such regimes are very rare and hard to find, and, as I said, you have to deal with somebody. So until the “the eyes of ME nations and people” learn to reflect on themselves, see that they themselves are the ones who have “failed morally”, and see that both their problems and the solutions to their problems rest not in the hands of foreigners but in their own hands — until, in other words, the nations and people of the region grow up and take responsibility for their own fate, rather than forever trying shake it off on someone else — the nations and people will remain in their state of relative ignorance, futility, misery, oppression, and degradation. The moment they are willing to take on that responsibility, on the other hand, they’ll find a West and a world willing and happy to deal with them with respect and equality. There’s a chance such an event is starting to happen in Iraq.
Sally: Muslims are raised to believe in their superiority over all the rest of the people on earth.
Allah has bestowed on them the best intelligence, morals, ethics, why even look at their great science! They gave the world someone else’s ZERO!
They been coasting on that one thing for a thousand years now it was so great.
In our time, they now take credit for the geologic process that created the oil under them and believe their new wealth is a testiment of their superiority over everyone else.. so you see whenever a Muslim country stumbles it can’t be their fault.
It’s the fault of Satan.. offerring compelling temptations that even Allah might spend a few seconds contemplating.
And who on earth is the personification of Satan none other than the Earth’s most supreme power, the United States.
Islam in its core is extremely intolerant teaching advocating world domination through military conquest. Its political ambitions are incompatible with peace and democracy and could not be tolerated by any civilized society. Islam will not voluntary give up these ambitions until compelled to do so by overwhelming force. This is the central conflict of this century, and I see no other resolution of it except forming a world-wide empire like Roman empire with leading role of Christian nations, especially US.
“So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people, greedy, barbarous, and cruel.”
– T.E. Lawrence (of Arabia) as written by Robert Bolt in Lawrence of Arabia 1962.
As noted by others, Arabia hasn’t always been under Islam’s control. The Muslim conquests of Zoroastrian and Persian territories was the start of the destruction of technological progress and scientific achievements. It is also truly questionable whether the Persians could have achieved scientific progress had it not been for Alexander the Great’s Hellenization of the Persian Empire. The various Successor kingdoms, the Diadochai, were Greek rulers in foreign territories and thus brought the fruits of the Hellenistic world, including the scientific method and open source philosophy, to the rest of the world. Alexandreia in Egypt was founded by Alexander, and the Ptolemies eventually brought Alexander’s body there to be interned in a golden crystal sarcophagus for popular individuals to come and pay their respects to. Emperor Augustus was just one of many to pay their respects to the single individual that changed history for most of the known world.
Both Egypt, Baktria (North West India across the Hindu Kush), the Seleucids (Jerusalem to Babylonia to Charax), and Makedonian were Alexander’s successor states. States that were the successors of Alexander’s Empire, when it broke apart after his death. These empires were still around in 272 BC, decades before Rome’s wars with Carthage.
The Muslim conquests in around 500 AD started from Arabia, yes. But they were faced with decadent and weak empires. The ideology of Islam made for a great catalyst and motivator for the successful conquest and holding of territories. At about the same time the Catholc Church rose to supremacy because of the fall of the Western Roman Empire, Islam had already perfected a workable system of control using religious beliefs. Whereas Rome used to divide up conquered people for the slave markets and in order to decrease the population of the locals to prevent revolt, waiting for the eventual Romanization of their provinces, Islam spread like a wildfire due to their ability to call upon the loyalty of the faithful. It was their faith in Mohammed, much more so than their faith in Allah, that defeated the decadent Sassassnid Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire eventually.Mohammed’s generals also used the traditional Arab rivalry in order to defeat the Sassanid’s historical Arab allied tribes. Islam was always about pitting Arabs against other Arabs, as a first step to the conquering of the infidel.
Alexander’s campaign of “Hellenization” which is the bringing of the fruits of Hellenic civilization such as aqueducts, science, philosophy, and warfare methods is mirrored by Mohammed’s campaign of Islamization. Zoroastrianism, which survived and flourished for centuries in Persia, no longer exists as anything but a memory of a memory in the boondocks of Persia. Such is the efficient of the methods of Islam.
The only way to defeat the Arabs is to bring them something new that they find a need for. Whether that is the Hellenic fruits of civilization or Mohammed’s commandments. First, however, you have to solve the thorny issue of tribalism, which faced both Alexander and Mohammed’s generals. America tried to bring the fruits of American civilization, Americanization, first , which was rejected by the Iraqis as Westernization, a decadent and sorry replacement for Saddam and Shariah. Only the Kurds accepted Americanization as something that would benefit them. Now we are solving and dealing with the tribal dynamics, which was always the first barrier to any attempt to spread something new to the Arabic and Persian world.
Because of Arabia and Persia’s intense tribalism rather than nationalism, they have been severely retarded in their progress towards civilization. During the Dark Ages and the recovery of civilization in the Western Roman Empire, when people learned that it was a good thing to bathe, the Greek works that inspired the European Enlightenment were preserved by Persians and Catholic Monks. The Monks because they were the only ones consistently literate and the Persians because of Alexander’s successor empires that brought Greek customs, colonists, armies, and fruits to that part of the world. The various Sultans kept the works around because of hubris in a fashion. They thought of these achievements or historical documents as belonging to the Persian, Arabian, or Islamic world. I suppose after killing and wiping out the original authors of these achievements, the Islamic Caliphates had a right to their own version of history.
The Islamic world has passed from many hands to many hands. They deserve a strong ruler, that is why they keep looking towards us or someone else for solutions to their problems. Even if they want to help themselves, like in Iraq, they cannot do so without the strong hand of American military might that is confident and faithful there to help them. Both Alexander and Mohammed understood the strengths and weaknesses of Arabia and Persia. We shoud not throw away their hard learned knowledge.
Some comments after reading the topic about Lawrence of Arabia. There are certain types of leaders, like Alexander, that knew how the tribal mind worked and functioned. They were able to lead Arabs and see the strength of the Arabic people precisely because they knew the weaknesses and strengths of the Arabs and Persians.
When such people, as Alexander, was empowered by their entire nation and civilization, great things can be accomplished. When they are not backed by their nation, then you can only get a TE Lawrence. Which in the end, will only filter down to us as legends and stories. Nothing fundamental will have changed.
The bedouin Arabs relying upon Desert Power is the same now as they were before in our ancient’s past. We have changed, they have not. And in this, we have found our salvation. Our Western culture is rotten at the core, for the core contains parasite inumerable. We need to purge such malcontents from our system in order to make it healthy once again, but where do we find our medicine? In the Arabic world where armies and legions have contested land and might for centuries. They will remind us of what it takes to survive and solve factionalism and tribalism in our own nation, or they will kill us. Simple as that. A harsh solution for a harsh world of corrupt bureacrats, child rapist/murderers, and politicians.
Islam, with the influx of oil wealth and Western weakness, is having a resurgence. Although technically, dead Empires like the Caliphate and Ottoman Empire are supposed to stay dead. Only their children may flourish. Arabic oil wealth and Western decadence may indeed bring about the resurrection of the Muslim conquests of Constantinople and renaming the Hagia Sophia, Emperor Justinian’s commissioned work, a Mosque for the Faithful. Instead of the Cathedral for Christianity it was meant to be.
Turks and Muslims are justifiably proud of the Hagia Sophia. It is a magnificent work. It was meant to be handed down to the descendants of the Eastern ROman Empire, of course, but inheritances don’t always come through. Because of estate taxes if nothing else.
They conquered it and so they keep it. That is the law of warfare and the laws of a vital world.
However, what one has taken can also be taken from them. That is part of the laws of warfare as well. Including the law of the jungle.
Empires fall because they grow weak, as the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphates did. And the Eastern Roman Empire with their capital in Constantinople and the Persian Empire of the Sassanids. Yet they can be resurrected by their children, at least in part.
Even Europe is attempting to get into the resurgent game of Empires. One of the EU commissioners said that the EU is the first non-colonial or expansionist Empire in the world. Another quiped that you had to be either French or God to understand.
500 years after the birth of Christ, Rome had fallen to the Barbarians with a Vatican sitting amongst their barbarian hordes. The beginnings of Islam was just about to stir. Now a few years after the 2 millenium mark, things are starting up once again.
Humanity is caught in this circle because we are mortal and we make mistakes. Weak Empires are replaced by those with a stronger sense of certainty and implacable will. That will be our fate should we prove unworthy. Just as it will be the fate of Islam should they prove unworthy.
Germany is still around and so is Japan, but their defeats changed them as much as our victory changed us. Some for the better, some for the worse, but they are no longer world powers or military powers because they have lost the right to such. They can reclaim it, as the EU is trying to do for their former Imperial and Colonial historical glories, but as with all things, it requires effort. Incompetent and feckless effort on the part of the EU or bloodthirsty and suicidal effort on the part of the Islamic war on goodness.
There may not be such a thing as Divine Right behind the power of monarchs and dynasties, but there is certainly a score card kept by someone for entire nations, cultures, and civilizations.
Score too low and you’ll end up like Carthage.
Hold on a second. Didn’t Bonnie cheer for the Marxists and other revolutionaries that killed man, woman, and babe in their quest for dominance?
How did she warp into Laura? That’s some multiple personality stuff going on there.
For someone that takes great pride in telling us that she represents military families and all that good stuff, she sure spends a lot of her time and effort here. This is not exactly a site designed for Blackfive like actions. I stopped expecting sense from the Left awhile ago, of course. Best to just figure out the moon battery aspect first.
Btw, Venus isn’t the god of war. nor even the goddess.
Btw, Neo, it would be interesting to see whether this “banning” was because of someone they said or because they ran themselves into your spam blockers and became impaled. Impaling oneself and then shouting that martyrship is here, is a bit extreme if you ask me.
I didnt’ say Venus is a god of war.
The moon god is, and the symbology of Allah and previous gods used Crescents and stars (venus).
Gray>I told you you were loopy and unhelpful and then you quoted the Hadith instead of the Koran to prove your point.
Vince>Yeah.. so ? Why do you think that is significant? I dont know why you think you’ve proved anything… I never claimed they were from the Koran.
This was never answered.
One of the things most people don’t know is that Muslims are to consider Mohammed’s entire life as a model for them to live their lives.
The Koran is a book authored by Allah himself. In the first person. There’s a copy of the Koran in heaven too.
The Hadith are the recorded says of Mohemmed. And because Allah says that Mohemmend’s life in its entirely should be seen as an example for all Muslims, the Hadith are just as important as the Koran. The Hadith are way more detailed and contextualized than the Koran is.
Then there’s a third class of text called the Sira. The Sira are sacrilized biographies of Moheemed. The Hadith are disjoined sayings of Mohemmed, the Sira is like a story of his life.
So all of these texts form the written holy texts of Islam.
I tried to read the Koran recently, but it’s tough going. It’s like reading the collected thoughts (such as they are) of Charles Manson.
So all of these texts form the written holy texts of Islam.
And Satan gave them to the Muslims?
I can’t make it through the Koran either.
The way the Koran is organized is pretty stupid… the Koran is not a narrative like the Bible is.
The BIble starts it’s text at the beginning of time and it naturally progresses through Human/Israeli history and it has an ending set in the future.
The Koran has no structure to the text. It’s not a story, it’s not topical… it’s the writings of a possessed madman. (BTW: Mohemmed was illiterate)
The Koran is organized by the length of its chapters.. The chapter with the most text is first, and on down to the chapter with the least words.
Even within the chapters there is no organization.
Keep in mind that most Muslims have to MEMORIZE the entire thing.. it’s amazing more of them aren’t mentally disturbed.
>And Satan gave them to the Muslims?
I’m not mind-reading what your real question is.. so was your sarcasm an end to itself?
Goodness, Neo, 121 heated comments and still going strong two days later. Way to go! I still want to know why I can’t make heads or tails of Truth’s comments. Can anyone explain the trick of deciphering them, or is it more bother than they’re worth?
FMM:
Here’s the easy “Truth” decoder:
Arabs=Good
America=Bad
Vince P.
I’m not trying to stick up for Muslims, but I just do not believe the vast majority of Muslims are fundamentalists. There are fundamentalists in every religion. Christianity has had its share of fundamentalists that took the Bible as the literal word of God. You do know that the Bible has passages that advocate killing all non-believers, slavery, polygamy, stoning sinners to death, etc. Most Christians have taken those texts to be indicative of life as it was in those times and have moved on to the teachings of Jesus, which were about love, peace, and tolerance.
Christianity went through a Reformation and the Thirty Years War, not to mention other blood letting along the way. Those experiences brought the concept of tolerance and freedom of religion as being a more workable way to live in the world.
Islam needs to go through its own Reformation. There are about 1.5 billion Muslims world wide. If what you say is true, the non-Muslims are going to have to kill or convert all those people. Probably not going to happen.
I’ve seen many comments in the blogosphere that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Yet our soldiers are meeting moderate Muslims everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan. Read “LONE SURVIVOR” by Marcus Luttrell. Some Afghani Muslims risked their lives to save his life. I’ve only known two Muslims personally, but both of them were decent, tolerant human beings that wouldn’t hurt a fly. Do you know any Muslims personally?
If only 10% of Muslims are fundamentalists that is 150 million; quite a formidable force. I agree that they are dangerous and must be stood up to. We must help the moderates to get reform going inside Islam. The problems lie in the Madrassas and some mosques where imams are preaching all this fundamentalist hate. Moderates need to have some backing against the thugs if they are to stand up to the forces of hate. That is what we’re trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If you’re right about all Muslims being fundamentalists, then it is going to be much worse than the Thirty Years War if we are to win.
Proverbs 17 (New International Version)
Bribery
Iraqi bloggers at home and abroad
Moderates need to have some backing against the thugs if they are to stand up to the forces of hate. That is what we’re trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Jimmy J. You are so blunt guy saying this statement, obviously you know what, you see not far from your nose with the info about Iraq.
Read this may open your eyes Iraq not Afghanistan
Felicity Arbuthnot is a journalist and activist who has visited the Arab and Muslim world on numerous occasions. She has written and broadcast on Iraq, her coverage of which was nominated for several awards. She was also senior researcher for John Pilger’s award-winning documentary, “Paying the Price: Killing the Children of Iraq.” and author, with Nikki van der Gaag, of “Baghdad” in the “Great Cities” series for World Almanac Books (2006).
I’ve seen many comments in the blogosphere that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.
Can you tell us in 1991 in order to expel the armed forces of Iraq from Kuwait US sent 500,000 men to the region, where those 500,000 US Military personal landed please?
Is it Islamic Land? The most holy Land to the Muslims do you know that?
And How many Muslim Military Personal joined them from Kuwait, Saudi, Morocco, and Syria (you forgot here now its terrorist state) did those Muslim/Arab fired on US Military?
For some they should “shut up” and speak the truth not lies here.
Jimmy J: You threw every cliche counter-argument at me… all I have to say is re-read what I wrote.. I believe everything I have already written addresses what you said.
Do you thikn you’re the first one to come up wth “have you met any Muslims before”?
Give me a break. stupid question.. do you think I live on Mars?
I just happened to run across this video clip from TV in Turkey:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1643.htm
There you find reference to the Mulsim belief in the return of Isa, who will end Christianity and Judiasm, and kill all the Jews and take over the world.
Maybe Jimmy J should ask his Muslims friends why they belong to a religion that says they must kill him sometime in the future
Maybe Jimmy J should ask his Muslims friends why they belong to a religion that says they must kill him sometime in the future
If you are right then your president will never be touring Gulf state and Muslim lands other wise he will be killed as with all rubbish talk here.
Answer us how many Americans NOW in the Gulf states on Muslim’s land? Are they a life, are Muslims killing them?
Get a life dude and don’t fish in muddy water man, be real go read your Bible there are more stories to add to your rambles collection.
BTW, memritv.org is not truthful site, its biased with lack of credibility, managed and founded by ISRAEL or Israelis
Vince, why would the star in the crescent flag be Venus, the Roman god of love?
The Romans weren’t the only or first peoples to worship Venus.. thus to the people in the Middle East Venus did not represent love.
Felicity Arbuthnot is a journalist and activist who has visited the Arab and Muslim world on numerous occasions. She has written and broadcast on Iraq, her coverage of which was nominated for several awards. She was also senior researcher for John Pilger’s award-winning documentary
Oh, no Truth….
I enjoy your talk about arab self-determination and fighting both the Mad Mullah’s “and their ilks” and the Corrupt Princes, but Pilger and Stupid Felicity are just European Leftists.
They aren’t your friends.
You don’t want to see the Arabs just become footsoldiers in the dirty, dirty leftist war against capitalism and freedom.
You can’t quote Islam and Arab Self-determination and then quote the anti-religion, anti-human leftists.
I want to see Iraq become like UAE, not like Venezuela!
Then call the planet what the Musilms called it, Vince. It’s ridiculous that you claim that they worship Venus when Venus isn’t what they worshipped.
I ddn’t say they worshipped Venus, Ymar. Maybe you want to cut and paste where I said they did.
I said the symbology is the same.
If anyone isn’t well versed in Islam I recommend this documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHf1sOzCcpQ&feature=PlayList&p=1A045388288AF6ED&index=0&playnext=1
Islam: What the west needs to know
Does Vince P get paid by bin Laden, or is he pro-bono advocate of the radical interpretation of Islam?
Truth,
How about giving us the truth.
1. Are you Muslim?
2. Do you live in the Middle East?
3. If you are Muslim, do you agree that it is the duty of all Muslims to convert or kill non-believers?4. What would you like to see happen in Iraq?
Vince P.
I’m sorry you don’t get my point. You are preaching, yes that’s a good word, the same kind of hate about Islam that the imams are preaching about Jews and Christians.
I just don’t believe all Muslims are fundamentalists. One case in point: Most Afghanis were not happy living under strict sharia enforced by the Taliban. The Taliban are Muslim fundamentalists who do believe all the violent interpretations of the Koran, hadiths, and sura. They are a danger to both us and moderate Muslims. If that example makes you think I’m a naive fool, so be it.
Truth’s talk about Arab self-determination is a thing of conceit. Their culture, forget their religion, is incapable of self-determination with such lovely habits as inshallah. It is never the individual Arab’s responsibility or decision to make, it is their sheiks, leaders, the omnipotent American’s, Allah’s, and so forth’s decision to make. Never the individual’s fault or problem to solve. It took something like Iraq to even get somebody in that culture to start making decisions for themselves. It seems the Kurdish wasn’t making any Arabs envious enough to emulate them. So we had to do something in Iraq that could get through the heads of such conceited folks.
The Arabs can blame their problems on us if they wish, that simply means that they yearn for overlords. Some of us are happy to oblige them, if only because it would be a better situation than them accepting Shariah and AQ/Iran.
it pains me i have to respond to poor logic and thinking.
>I’m sorry you don’t get my point. You are preaching, yes that’s a good word, the same kind of hate about Islam that the imams are preaching about Jews and Christians.
Imams teach hate against people. You’re telling me that’s the same thing about holding in contempt the belief system of Islam?
It’s not.. hating people and hating idelogogy is not the same thing.
>I just don’t believe all Muslims are fundamentalists. One case in point: Most Afghanis were not happy living under strict sharia enforced by the Taliban. The Taliban are Muslim fundamentalists who do believe all the violent interpretations of the Koran, hadiths, and sura. They are a danger to both us and moderate Muslims. If that example makes you think I’m a naive fool, so be it.
I never said ALL muslims are anything. So you constructed a straw man.
This is what I said before… so i dont know why you distort what i said and false claim that I said all men Muslims are fundamentalists:
“Muslims, on the other hand, are people born or deceived into the religion. As people it can not be said that all of them act in a certain way. Some are more pious than others.
My enemy is the Muslim who believes in spreading sharia beyond the borders Dar Al Islam by any means and those Muslims who support them by means including but not limited to: doing nothing, obfuscating, deflecting criticism away from Muslims and back toward to the Non-muslim, providing an enclave from which jihad or dawa is launched.
Etc…
So Islam is Islam…. Muslims are people who run the spectrum from secular/cultural Muslims to dangerous devout Muslims.”
“………..So Islam is Islam…. Muslims are people who run the spectrum from secular/cultural Muslims to dangerous devout Muslims.”
Okay Vince, I get the distinction you are making. Sorry to push you on the issue, but I was not getting your point. I learned something from the exchange. Thanks.
I enjoy your talk about arab self-determination and fighting both the Mad Mullah’s “and their ilks” and the Corrupt Princes, but Pilger and Stupid Felicity are just European Leftists.
Gary same argument I applied to this post, if you consider Ralph Peters and Michael Totten as neocone guys so it’s same.
But if you go back and read my comments is to bring broad view what’s going and what’s Iraq was and all the info.
You should care and consider what in the links I posted and try to discussing the contents but if you stick to run after who right this or that then we wasting our time as if all issue here is where is the truth in all of this war and what’s happening now in Iraq and how to get think sort out for better for both side in this war.
Its not matter left and right folks here, but in my mind people like Felicity Arbuthnot from Korea and others may be china and other countries when they right its easy to say those view more independent and based that US or Iraq reporters and views.
Anyway your choose to understand what I am trying to do and to convey my views in this way.
Anyway your choose to understand what I am trying to do and to convey my views in this way.
Felicity Arbuthnot isn’t from Korea. She’s a weird old hippy from Britain. John Pilger is a weird old hippy from Australia.
They don’t care about arabs or the Middle East, they just hate America and Britain.
They aren’t your friends. They are weird old white people who will use arab suffering to advance their own leftist agendas! They love arab suffering because it advances their cause.
They miss the Soviet Union.
I think you are more pro-leftist than pro-arab, and that’s a shame.
Ralph Peters isn’t a neocon. I’ve met him, he’s not even very conservative, but he’s right sometimes….
Gray you missed the main key point in our discussion here.
My The discussion did not argue I am right or left, neither the reporters/links to judge me left or right, off course its your view which I disagree, but the point is what in the Felicity’s report contents about Iraq and Iraqis were been and where are now forgot the years of lunatic man and his mentality and wars, but the level Iraq were till 1979 and before that the key point I try to make and show some friends here who put Iraq Afghanistan in same level which far from the truth. Off course Gray Iraq third world country for Americans looks different.
So if you have any reference telling the opposite please do show us or if you have any other reports let take a look to it.
The matter is not those “ weird old white people here, the case also still valid of the other side like Michael Yon or Nir Rosen when he was a child he had “dreamed of joining Israel’s elitie special forces.”
So both sides make themselves from the suffering of Arab or others no matter which war Gray.
Jimmy J. Says:
3. If you are Muslim, do you agree that it is the duty of all Muslims to convert or kill non-believers?
I am relevant here, but please read Islamic history will give you more answers and clear picture of Islam and what this religion adds to civilization.
May I pick your attention Arab countries have Christian and Jews till now between them living together and more Iran (One of Axis of Evil) and regarded as aggressive Mullah regime and extremist there are 20,000 Jews there in addition to Christians.
You need to think about it before believing what hatemongering telling.
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So both sides make themselves from the suffering of Arab or others no matter which war Gray.
Did Truth just say that Michael Yon makes his living from the suffering of Arabs?
Jack Schwager Says:
Does Vince P get paid by bin Laden,
Ayatollah D’Souza
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I was going to respond to some previous posts, but there’s just too much. Briefly, I will state that, in my opionin, the United States of America IS engaged in a religious war in the middle east. It’s just that OUR religion–being definitively outside the mandate of government–has nothing to do with it.
Somewhere above someone disputed Islam’s bid to world domination on the basis that the “only” 1.5 billion Muslims would have a lot of converting to do to dominate the world. This is true, but they aren’t focussed on achieving in a single lifetime. Check out some maps of Islamic territory over time and see how it expands through conquest.
While I generally agree with Vince P’s assertions, I must insist that the Q’ran was NOT imparted to the Arabs by Satan. It was constructed sura by sura at need by a bullish, pedophilic thug who found religiosity to be the perfect vehicle for his inhuman cruelty and lust.
Well, maybe Muhammed WAS Satan, after all…
If anyone wants a good global scale of the conflict the world finds itself in today vis a vis Islam, check out these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKne9k08iNc
2miin 49sec
the “meat” is at to 4min 40sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vypKSWHlnKA
I recommend the whole thing
but the “meat” is at 5min 11sec
Plus I plotted jihad attacks 2003 – Jan 2007 here
http://home.comcast.net/~vincep312/attacks.html