Look at this Ralph Peters column and Michael Totten’s latest report from Fallujah as companion pieces. They tell the same tale, that of the discrediting and defeat of terrorist forces in Iraq.
Peters focuses on the meagerness of US press coverage of this most important story. Totten fills in for that scarcity.
Why isn’t Totten’s work being picked up by one of the major papers? If the New Republic is so hungry for news from the front that it published the inferior (not to mention mendacious) work of one Scott Beachamp, surely similar publications should be able to find a place in their hearts—and their pages—for the far superior “you are there” reporting of Totten.
Yes, I know the basic storyline actually has been covered by the MSM. But in a sort of whisper. It has been given nowhere near the prominence it should.
As Peters writes:
The greatest media story of 2007 was the one you never read (unless you read The Post): The year was a strategic catastrophe for Islamist terrorists - and possibly a historic turning point in the struggle against al Qaeda and its affiliates.
Why is it that our own media is so reluctant to spread the word? In some ways, of course, that’s a rhetorical question. We know the answer, at least in part: hatred of George Bush, reluctance to print anything that would reflect poorly on the Democratic Party and its candidates, and even a sort of general press reluctance to print good news (”if it bleeds, it ledes”).
An even greater factor is that the MSM itself took a stand, and a strong one at that: this war is bad and by definition unwinnable. Whether this press position originated in its liberal politics and disdain for anything George Bush might do, a generalized pacifism, an adherence to a Europe-centric worldview, and/or use of the favored “narrative” (see, I can be postmodern, too) about Vietnam as the template for all conflicts involving the US and insurgencies, the fact is that once that position was taken and hammered home over many months and years, to turn back would require a massive course correction.
Why do I harp so relentlessly (and perhaps tiresomely) on the press, and on the war? After all, it’s practically disappeared from the subject matter of the 2008 Presidential campaign, a telling fact in and of itself about how things have changed in Iraq. Does anyone doubt that, if things were still going poorly there, we’d be hearing no end of it?
Because it’s very important, that’s why.
If you read Totten’s work, you’ll see all is not sweetness and light in Fallujah. Corruption still exists, as does some violence. But his report on a city that until fairly recently was a synonym for the some of the most bloodcurdling events in the entire postwar Iraq period (and that’s saying quite a bit) is staggering in the contrast it presents with those bad old days.
Totten writes:
Most of the Marines I spoke to were stunned…especially those who had previously served in Fallujah when it was still the catastrophically violent city most Americans think it still is….[Fallujah is] a paradise compared with, say, a shantytown-packed Mexican border town like Juarez or Tijuana.
Let that sink in for a minute.
And there’s much more. Here’s what Joint Security Station (combined Iraqi police and US Marine) commanding officer Second Lieutenant Gary Laughlin had to say when Totten asked him what surprised him most about the current state of the city:
“The most surprising thing,” he said, “is how friendly people are. I expected people here to just hate us after Al-Fajr. You kind of have to take it with a grain of salt, though. Some of them really just want the Iraqi Police to take over, and they only smile at us to be polite.”
That has to be right. Some unknown percentage of Fallujahns are still disgruntled with the American presence. But there is almost no surface-level evidence that this is true. Very nearly 100 percent of the people who live there are friendly.
You can be cynical and skeptical about this if you like. In fact, as Totten’s piece indicates, the Marines themselves are careful to maintain a hefty dose of wariness because—as their signs point out—”complacency kills.” But it’s an amazing and very encouraging fact that the situation in Fallujah has improved so much that these signs—as well as special classes in counter-complacency for the Marines stationed there—are necessary at all.
Whether this change is a sometime thing or a lasting one, it represents a situation so much better than before, and one that turned around so relatively quickly, that this should be a very, very Big Story indeed.
[NOTE: the title of this post is meant to be an ironic commentary on the title of Washington Post journalist Peter Braestrup’s seminal work on how the press got its reporting of the Tet Offensive in Vietnam so wrong: Big Story.]
[ADDENDUM: This is another column of interest on a similar theme. And for the opposite side, see this and this.]
January 2nd, 2008 at 5:36 pm
“The most surprising thing,” he said, “is how friendly people are.
They are, as other Iraqis, but what triggered the area is those pictures that Backwater guys, and the reactionary collective punishment that US forces did in the area which triggered and killed more civilians and destroyed a town with almost 250,000, this created a recruit ground for terrorists and their mad ilk’s.
January 2nd, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Great post as usual, Neo. Thought I should let you know that in your addendum all three of your links are set to go to this very page.
January 2nd, 2008 at 5:56 pm
did in the area which triggered and killed more civilians and destroyed a town with almost 250,000, this created a recruit ground for terrorists and their mad ilk’s.
Apparently not. Wishing for it won’t make it happen.
January 2nd, 2008 at 6:04 pm
BTW, talking about
Ralph Peters he is the man with conversational views and naivety, you may remember his article “Blood borders” in this article he went far beyond the limits which can be viewed as creating Warlords, Tribes conflicts, chaos and Terrorists in ME which give US the lead to targeting all the conflicts and terrorists all around.
So the point is Ralph Peters should be treated with cautious
as far as his views about ME
January 2nd, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Ore by Michael Totten ” A Plan to Kill Everyone”
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/01/a-plan-to-kill.php
More about Ralph Peters
“In place of the civil war that elements in our media declared, I saw full streets, open shops, traffic jams, donkey carts, Muslim holiday flags - and children everywhere, waving as our Humvees passed,” he recalled.
“Even the clouds of dust we stirred up didn’t deter them. And the presence of children in the streets is the best possible indicator of a low threat level.”
So, why is the U.S. press full of reports that Iraq is spinning into chaos?
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/5/121111.shtml
January 2nd, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Isn’t it great to have the US marines spreading the Feminist Matriarchy all around the world! Soon, Iraq will be a miserable place for men just like the USA! Iraqi Men, you get to look forward to legalized misandry, an anti-male, anti-father culture that will aim to destroy the traditional family in your country. Before you know it, your country will be a pussified/feminized mess just like the USA! Your women will become masculine and unbearable just like American Women. Thanks US Marines! Hey Marines, you do realize that you’re actually destroying the few remaining patriarchies of the world and replacing them with the same socialist/feminist matriarchy found in the west. One thing I know for sure, Women are definitely smarter than men. Marines are actually fighting for their own enslavement to the feminist matriarchy. Incredible! Congrats to Feminists for biting the hand that feeds & protects them … and getting away with it!
January 2nd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
[…] the News Out of Iraq Jump to Comments Neo-Neocon offers some cogent commentary on the muted good news coming out of Iraq these days. In response to the stunning turnaround in the […]
January 2nd, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Ralph Peters he is the man with conversational views and naivety, you may remember his article “Blood borders” in this article he went far beyond the limits which can be viewed as creating Warlords, Tribes conflicts, chaos and Terrorists in ME which give US the lead to targeting all the conflicts and terrorists all around.
Are you arguing that arabs like the borders drawn artbitrarily by the British Empire after WWI?
It’s Margaret Bell’s goofy borders that split up and consolidated a lot of tribal land in Iraq!
I met Ralph Peters a few times when I was in the Army and I’ve read his books. He is a thoughful, educated and sincere retired officer and gentleman.
Jonson, you’re raving. I went through a crappy divorce too, get over it. Life gets better….
Good post Neo. I love it when you give the media hell!
I have been interviewed before and I have been party to events that were later reported (no, I’m not telling) and I assure you, they never get anything right not even the names and places.
I can further tell you that I knew more than a few journalism and ‘communications’ majors in college and they were uniformly the stupidest and least curious people I have ever met.
January 2nd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Um gray, it’s Gertrude Bell, not Margaret. And, it wasn’t HER carving up the countries in the Middle East but rather against HER suggestions, carving it up the way it was done by countries in the west, supplying their puppet leaders and setting the stage for part of the misery we see today in the Middle East.
TE Lawrence and Bell both had much to say about how the ME would never be peaceful again.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Why is it that our own media is so reluctant to spread the word? In some ways, of course, that’s a rhetorical question. We know the answer, at least in part: .
It is unethical to report news that would bolster the morale of your enemies and discourage your allies, Neo.
the fact is that once that position was taken and hammered home over many months and years, to turn back would require a massive course correction.
They never disagreed with Bush’s staying the course rhetoric, on principle. It just so happens to be that even if an enemy has things right on principle, you can’t and shouldn’t admit it in public for morale reasons. They are still the enemy; enemies that must be destroyed. And it makes your job of destroying the enemy harder if you take their side. So why would the media help Bush when their job is to do the exact opposite? To turn back and alter their course is to admit defeat to the enemy.
If you read Totten’s work, you’ll see all is not sweetness and light in Fallujah. Corruption still exists, as does some violence.
The best you can expect from the media is that they ignore you.
To expect anything more would be like expecting a tiger to refuse to eat meat, Neo.
You can be cynical and skeptical about this if you like. In fact, as Totten’s piece indicates, the Marines themselves are careful to maintain a hefty dose of wariness because—as their signs point out—”complacency kills.”
Tea meets and greets are nice but one can never forget that this is war, not a social party.
And the point to war is to kill the enemy, not have fun.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I assure you, they never get anything right not even the names and places.
What else do you expect? Is Hitler supposed to now, all of a sudden, devote his life to saving Jews instead of exterminating them? You cannot expect a man’s fundamental behavior to change when you have not changed the nature of a man.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Whether man or woman, there is no use expecting one’s enemies to be on our side. If they are, that’s a bon[u]s, but usually they aren’t.
I can further tell you that I knew more than a few journalism and ‘communications’ majors in college and they were uniformly the stupidest and least curious people I have ever met.
You can’t run a propaganda and psychological warfare operation with people that keep opening their mouths to ask inconvenient questions about classified information that they don’t have a need to know.
Not having curiosity is a virtue in the media.
Btw, anything that our side releases for public consumption and could be beneficial for individuals to know, is classified data to the media. So they have no problems covering things up, modifying data, and not telling the whole truth. That’s how intel and counter-espionage operations are run, for the most part. Deception is the point of the game.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:17 pm
You libs (and everyone else) should check out this speech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EEDBMhVusk
This guy is right on about the threat we’re facing.
“A turning point in America, certain things said that would not have been acceptable to say a few years ago are received with thundering applause today. United American Committee’s Jim Horn addresses 1,800 people at the National Federation of Republican Women convention September 2007″
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Gertrude Margaret Lowthian Bell Old Baghdad “Khatun” in iraq before, the American made their new Khatun for them in Baghdad “Meghan O’Sullivan”
Motherless those with low IQ mind hard to them to understand this tact called Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Bonnie, my error, it is “Gertrude” Bell….
However, from gertrudebell.com:
Adventurer, archaeologist and arabist, Gertrude Bell (1868-1926) was a counsellor to Lloyd George and Winston Churchill, and a confidante of sheikhs. To T E Lawrence she was ‘Gerty,’ and he was her ‘Little One.’ She cut a unique figure in the turbulent politics of the Middle East at the turn of last century.
Instrumental in defining modern Iraq’s borders, and in choosing its first king, she was generally considered the most powerful woman in the British Empire.
Wikipedia says:
Bell’s influence led to the creation of a country inhabited by a Shi’ite majority in the south, and Sunni and Kurdish minorities in the center and north respectively. By denying the Sunni Kurds a separate, autonomous area or state, the British tried to balance the heavy predominance of Shi’ites in Iraq and keep control of the potential oilfields in their territory.
And that’s what we’ve got now.
The sources I find on the web just flat out say: “She drew the map of modern Iraq”.
TE Lawrence and Bell both had much to say about how the ME would never be peaceful again.
Sure, not without a Caliphate….
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:30 pm
it is unethical to report news that would bolster the morale of your enemies and discourage your allies, Neo.
But its moral to full the media with ugly pic’s and dead bodies of Iraqis showing the horrifying people because of the war, or cheering live launching of Tomahawk missiles on civilians in Iraq just as a game and internments for the viewers who pay FOX, CNN and others, but when pictures of captured US pilots on TV its against UN regulations, POW regulations and human rights and its immoral and a big crime.
Wonder how many standards and personalities some holding with their naive souls?
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Truth: American made their new Khatun for them in Baghdad “Meghan O’Sullivan”
“Wonkette” is not a credible source. She’s an imbecile and, by her writing, clearly holds arabs in contempt.
hard to them to understand this tact called Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules
So you don’t like the British Boundaries of Iraq?
You want us to leave arabs alone and save them at the same time.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Adventurer, archaeologist and arabist,
One thing missing here A SPY!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:35 pm
cheering live launching of Tomahawk missiles on civilians in Iraq just as a game and internments for the viewers who pay FOX, CNN and others, but when pictures of captured US pilots on TV its against UN regulations, POW regulations and human rights and its immoral and a big crime.
Certainly, those are our pilots You’re an arab, you understand….
Don’t pretend to be naive yourself.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:38 pm
“Wonkette” is not a credible source. She’s an imbecile
Adviser Has President’s Ear as She Keeps Eyes on Iraq
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:39 pm
One thing missing here A SPY!!
Of course: The Turks lost the war and the Caliphate was divided up among the victors–just like arabs.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:41 pm
From Truth’s link:
“who colleagues say is instrumental in shaping Mr. Bush’s views: Meghan L. O’Sullivan, the 36-year-old deputy national security adviser for Iraq and Afghanistan, and the most senior official working on those nations full time at the White House.”
Well, at least she’s not a weird old hippy. What’s the problem?
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:45 pm
certainly, those are our pilots you’re an Arab, you understand….
Hah,
Very clear racist and very sick. Well done dude the supporter of freedom and democracy and saving Iraqis from tyrant regime hah?
Abu Griab specks more of your mind then. Yes those Arab!!
Tell us what God gave you more to be better than Arab? One leg more , no one eye more, no open mind, oh yes full of sickness views
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Abu Griab specks more of your mind then. Yes those Arab!!
No, those sick people are in military jail.
Of course we ask for our pilots not to be beaten and humiliated, they are our pilots.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Well, at least she’s not a weird old hippy. What’s the problem?
Read my comment well, I did not having problem, go read what I said.
WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM?
You trying hardly manipulating the words and views here
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Gertrude Margaret Lowthian Bell Old Baghdad “Khatun” in iraq before, the American made their new Khatun for them in Baghdad “Meghan O’Sullivan”
OK. That is a good thing if she is advising Bush and has an understanding of Arab culture and politics like a “Khatun” in court.
Read my comment well, I did not having problem, go read what I said.
I’m sorry if I didn’t understand your message.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:03 pm
>Tell us what God gave you more to be better than Arab?
God gave us the Bible.
Satan gave the Arabs the Koran.
The results speak for themselves.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:05 pm
neoneocon, Are you aware of what comments made here with regards of discriminations of humans and race?
Are you supporting his view?
What action then you should do to show this guy his limits and stop his sick views with disgusting words about other race and humans.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:08 pm
God gave us the Bible.
Satan gave the Arabs the Koran.
I don’t think that is Right: The Koran has many, many Biblical and Christian ideas. It recognizes Jesus (Issa) and Moses (Musa) as Holy Men.
Just this past Christmas, Shi’ite and Sunni alike came to Christmas services to show solidarity with Iraqi Christians.
You’re comment is unhelpful and untrue.
But if you’re talking about Kurdish Yezidi, or Yaresan, that’s a different issue….
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Gray: Do you have any idea what this Muslim Isa is supposed to do when he comes back to earth?
Here is what the Muslims believe will happen…. please I hope this Isa never comes down.
Sorry, I have a full understanding of Islam and I will speak the truth about it.
According to Surah 2:177, A Muslim must accept all these things:
Quote
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets
The Last Day is the most important thing after belief in Allah.
The Last Day consists of the coming of the Imam Mahdi along with the appearance of the Muslim Jesus. For the Last Day to come, the Muslims must go to war and slaughter the Jews
Quote
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
But the Muslims don’t stop there.. once that’s accomplished:
Quote
al-Mahdi will receive a pledge of allegiance as a caliph for Muslims. He will lead Muslims in many battles of jihad. His reign will be a caliphate that follows the guidance of the Prophet. Many battles will ensue between Muslims and the disbelievers during the Mahdi’s reign…
Harun Yahya, a moderate and very popular Muslim author refers to the Mahdi’s invasion of numerous non-Muslim lands:
Quote
The Mahdi will invade all the places between East and West.
In today’s world.. non-Muslims are not killed or forced to convert if they pay the Jizya in Muslim lands and agree to live as dhimmis. Well apparently even that wonderful option will be eliminated during the Muslim Last Day. I’m assuming the pigs in this quote means Jews.
Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656: Narrated Abu Huraira:
Quote
Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 1368) from The Reliance of the Traveller, the classic Shafi manual of Islamic jurisprudence states:
Quote
“… the time and the place for [the poll tax] is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus’ descent (upon him and our Prophet be peace) …”
Ayatollah Ibrahim Amini clearly articulates this vision:
Quote
The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.
Sheikh Kabbani, Chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America clearly articulates the Islamic perspective regarding Jesus’ evangelistic role when He returns.
Quote
Like all prophets, Prophet Jesus came with the divine message of surrender to God Almighty, which is Islam. This verse shows that when Jesus returns he will personally correct the misrepresentations and misinterpretations about himself. He will affirm the true message that he brought in his time as a prophet, and that he never claimed to be the Son of God. Furthermore, he will reaffirm in his second coming what he prophesied in his first coming bearing witness to the seal of the Messengers, Prophet Muhammad. In his second coming many non-Muslims will accept Jesus as a servant of Allah Almighty, as a Muslim and a member of the Community of Muhammad.
Al-Sadr and Mutahhari, likewise articulate this same expectation:
Quote
Jesus will descend from heaven and espouse the cause of the Mahdi. The Christians and the Jews will see him and recognize his true status. The Christians will abandon their faith in his godhead (sic).
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:18 pm
What do you think all these Muslim paramilitary enclaves in rural areas all over the USA are training for?
They’re preparing for the call to Jihad by a future Caliph.
And I’m supposed to be SENSITIVE TO THEM?
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:23 pm
The Sunnis and Saddam loyalists got tired of having their women and goods confiscated by the al qaida types and the Americans began to attune to Iraqi/tribal cultures - COIN, small wars mentality where technocracy does not automatically rule, where mingling becomes the essence of patoling, where trainers and trainees live together and fight together, where language and customs are learned out of respect and not manipulation. Human Terrain Teams are deployed, their thrust being anthropological/cultural assessment. It is a major shift in war fighting, theory and practice with General Patareus (sp) the driving force.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Gray: Do you have any idea what this Muslim Isa is supposed to do when he comes back to earth?
You’re not quoting the Q’uran, you are quoting some extreme interpretations of it.
However, there is no one correct interpretation: Mullahs and Imams have different interpretations–you clearly do not have a full understanding of Islam.
We aren’t fighting a religious war. I didn’t join the Army to spread The Gospel. Our troops aren’t in Iraq to spread Christianity.
The US military is not a Christian organization, we leave our pets at home.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I’m quoting from Bukhari Hadith.. that and Muslim Hadith are the most well established. When Muslims want to make sense out of the Koran (since the Koran is a context-less mess) they consult the Hadith and the Sira for contextualized and meaningful spiritual and legal advice. You do know this right? You are trying to correct me, so you are aware of the various texts and their place in the Islamic religion, right?
It’s all there in black and white… there is no “extreme” interpretation.. it says quite clearly and quite plainly what it says.
Don’t kid yourself and try to whitewash it.
If the Muslims ever succeed in establishing a recognized Caliphate. the Muslims will act on these Hadith.
That’s their major objection about what Bin Laden did.. it’s not that he attacked us… it’s that he attacked us too soon and without a Caliph to provide authority.
And we are fighting a religious war. That’s the big secret no one is supposd to say.. but we are. A war the Muslims started 1,400 years ago and will never end.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:42 pm
This war is nothing new.. and neither is our (America’s) involvement in it.
Fighting against Muslims was one of the keys that exposed the problems wtih the Articles of Confederation and prompted the Constitutional Convention. The US needed a Navy very badly because the Muslims were attacking our commerce in the Mediterrean Sea.
“In 1786 Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli’s envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman or (Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves. Jefferson reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:
The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman (or Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven”
Nothing has changed. Other than they went into decline in the 1800s but now they have flourished again with the money we give them for oil.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:42 pm
they consult the Hadith and the Sira for contextualized and meaningful spiritual and legal advice. You do know this right? You are trying to correct me, so you are aware of the various texts and their place in the Islamic religion, right?
Of course:that’s what I said: You’re not quoting the Q’uran, you are quoting interpretations of it.
Hey, I’m fighting “to defend the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic”, that’s what my oath said:
The First ammendment of that Constitution has the “Establishment Clause”. I’m not fighting for or against a particular religion.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:52 pm
The Hadith are not interpreations of the Koran. they are the sayings of the Prophet. They go way beyond what is just found in the Koran.
So anyway, I hope I defended my opinion sufficiently. This religion is a brutal, anti-human system.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Go read your Bible well before acusing others Holly book
Some passage from New Century Version Bible:
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:03 pm
The Hadith are not interpreations of the Koran. they are the sayings of the Prophet.
No, not at all.
It’s not a settled issue in Islam: some believe the Koran is enough and others look to the ’sunnah’ or way of life of Muhammed and put less weight on hadith… Some believe the Hadith as written and others don’t.
Islam doesn’t have one authority, there are entire schools of disagreeing Islamic Jurisprudence.
You just have a big ol’ axe to grind.
They go way beyond what is just found in the Koran.
Yeah, that’s what I’ve been saying….
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Truth: A valid rebuttal would be to indicate where Islamic authorities state that Jihad no longer applies to our world.
A false rebuttal, what you did, is to change the subject.
Changing the subject does not refute me, though it is one of the very common tactics that Muslims employ when the spotlight is shined on their religion.
The other tactics you might use are
1 - State I took things out of context
2 - State that the Koran/hadith/siras real meaning does not translate into English and could only be properly understoood in Arabic
3 - State the translation into English is flawed
4 - State that the topic is not in Islam at all and is a local custom.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Y’know Vince, when we succeed in Iraq and it is a prosperous, stable country that is not a threat to us, it’s still going to be a majority Muslim country.
You can’t be both anti-Muslim and pro-victory in Iraq.
We are partnered with, training, and counting on many devout Muslims there.
We’re not there to convert them: You’re going to have to set aside your anti-Muslim attitudes if you are going to support our efforts….
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:07 am
>Y’know Vince, when we succeed in Iraq and it is a prosperous, stable country that is not a threat to us, it’s still going to be a majority Muslim country.
Thank you Captain Obvious
>You can’t be both anti-Muslim and pro-victory in Iraq.
That’s your platitude, I don’t need to accept it.
>We are partnered with, training, and counting on many devout Muslims there
Thank you Captain obvious
>We’re not there to convert them:
Straw man.
>You’re going to have to set aside your anti-Muslim attitudes if you are going to support our efforts….
That’s your platitude.
Do me a favor and take your condescension and direct it towards someone else.
I’m not Anti-Muslim. I am Anti-Islam. Islam is an ideology. Muslims are people.
If the Muslims of Iraq form a consensus that Jihad, Dawa and Sharia no longer apply it will be in spite of Islam and not because of it. We will have succeeded in our bold and risky experiment.
The jury is still out regarding Iraq. Yes the Sunnis rejected Al Qaida but it wasn’t for our sake. They rejected AQ because the AQ was slaughtering them!
So it is not I who has to change my totally justified suspicion of Muslims.. but rather it is they who have to change.. They are the ones with the problem. It is not a problem to notice this and to talk about it.
You know what you can do with your Political Correctness?
Watch this video and then tell me Islam is not of the Devil
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1637.htm
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:23 am
Wrong video… I meant this one…
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1646.htm
Satan’s representative demanding child sacrifices.
Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astal: Holiday Offerings Teach Us that Fathers Need to Sacrifice Their Sons and Sons Need to Sacrifice Themselves
Following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astal, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on December 27, 2007.
Yunis Al-Astal: The offerings slaughtered by the pilgrims teach us how fathers should sacrifice their sons by encouraging them to wage Jihad for the sake of Allah. They also teach us how young people should sacrifice themselves. Our forefather Ismail, who was also a prophet, said: “Oh father, do what you are commanded,” and he sacrificed himself. The holiday and the offerings remind us of the need for fathers to sacrifice their sons and the need for sons to sacrifice themselves.
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:50 am
Fixed the links in the addendum.
January 3rd, 2008 at 1:22 am
neo: Sorry for ranting in your comments
January 3rd, 2008 at 1:30 am
Someone explain to me why I can’t understand a thing that “truth” says.
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:34 am
Totten’s report is fabulous.
It shows what happens when a photographer and journalist reports what he sees with the intention of understanding it and helping other people understand it.
“Have a plan to kill everyone you see” is shocking, and he finds it shocking, but instead of going off on a self-indulgent offended joy ride he asks, what does that mean? Why is the sign there? What is it like for soldiers and Marines to have to stay ready all the time, even when nothing happens?
It’s a fabulous report.
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:11 am
Back to the reliability of Ralph Peters reports and view specially with his visit to Baghdad claiming back that Iraq ‘Civil War’ a Media Myth, let’s take a look to this maps Changing Baghdad Showing the Ethnic violence that gripped the Iraqi capital in the spring of 2006 has changed the city.
So if the civil war is a myth as Ralph Peters believes, so what’s happening then there on the ground?
Who drove those people in Baghdad?
Why 1.8-2.0 Million Iraqis refugees inside Iraq and 2.0-2.5 Millions Iraqi refugees outside Iraq, who did these crimes?
Iran?
Shiites?
Sunni?
Americans?
…… is it THIS!
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:56 am
“I’m not Anti-Muslim. I am Anti-Islam. Islam is an ideology. Muslims are people.”
WTF does this mean?
The definition of a Muslim is a believer in Islam, just as a Christian is a believer in Christianity.
Think of it this way:
I’m not anti-Christian. I am anti-Christianity. Christianity is an ideology. Christians are people.
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:59 am
Great post, Neo. You know why Totten’s work is not being picked up by the MSM. He challenges their narrative of Iraq as “another Vietnam.”
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:01 am
““I’m not Anti-Muslim. I am Anti-Islam. Islam is an ideology. Muslims are people.”
WTF does this mean? ”
It means I’m against the Islam that is expressed in the Koran, Hadith, and Sira.. particularly that section of it that states that Muslims must rule the world and are free to use any tactic in order to do so.
Amoung the various sects there is no disagreement in that area of Islam. So lest people point out that Islam is not a monolith, in regards to Dar al Haarb, Islam is.
Muslims, on the other hand, are people born or deceived into the religion. As people it can not be said that all of them act in a certain way. Some are more pious than others.
My enemy is the Muslim who believes in spreading sharia beyond the borders Dar Al Islam by any means and those Muslims who support them by means including but not limited to: doing nothing, obfuscating, deflecting criticism away from Muslims and back toward to the Non-muslim, providing an enclave from which jihad or dawa is launched.
Etc…
So Islam is Islam…. Muslims are people who run the spectrum from secular/cultural Muslims to dangerous devout Muslims.
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:45 am
Vince P is forwarding an argument similar to the CHristian doctrine hating the sin but loving the sinner.
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
Most of the peoples who are now Muslim were once something else. In a few places, like Turkey, Egypt and Iraq, some of the original Christians remain. The Iranians have all but wiped out Zoroastrianism, the once-major religion of Persia.
Over time, some of these conquered peoples may rediscover their pre-Islamic heritage.
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:01 pm
I beg your pardon, Neo, for being somewhat off-topic, but the really Big Story of today is in this must-read:
http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000172.html
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
I am Pro- Human Rights, universal Human Rights, including the right to believe as you choose, or not, and to change your belief.
Islam is currently against Human Rights, both against allowing one to change away from being a believer, and against allowing allowing non-Muslims to live and believe as they choose in Mecca (and possibly not in Medina?).
It took many Catholic - Protestant wars before Christians allowed other Christians “freedom of belief”. And the early US Puritans were NOT among the tolerant.
I hope that devout, Human Rights supporting Muslims will gain accendancy in Iraq, with tolerance between Arab & Kurd Sunnis, and between Shia and Sunni.
Bush is looking like he’ll be getting a “B” by next year (less than 5000 Americans killed).
Hey Truth, any note on Abu Ghraib in 2002 or before? Do you really think torture there went up or down in 2003? I think it was reduced by some 99%, which is pretty good but not perfect.
Sort of like imperfect America, better in fact than any other reality.
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Jesus Christ, but that must have gotten someone’s attention. Yes, the Surge is working. But I believe it is not a surge of boots that is doing the work so much as it is a surge of hope.
Let just add this, whatever theory may we hear from vast media and with all reports some prizing surge some don’t, but there few facts working behind this war from the start.
1- Iraq as a country and as nation was brought to its knees due to inhuman sanction for 13 years people in Iraq seeing the death and no hope to they can continue their journey in this world peacefully they suffer and suffer they were patient for so long on hope this not can last there is end to it, but their hope day after day months after months year after year faded.
2- Before that Iraqi as nation fought for 8 years of bloody war which cost millions life and left widows mother kids hopeless and suffer fro war that thought to be push the evil from the east the united because their love to their land they did lesson to that lunatic Mullah and his ugly head who like to bring live to back age and drive people like sheep on their land in name of Islam.
3- After 8 years Iraqi nation again bombed and destroyed for its lunatic leader sin they suffer and lost more lives and can found their loved ones aftermath of that war no one tell them where are they but the new that they under the sand buried in their shelters as if earth quake in the desert taken them but its not God well it’s a military weapon invented to create and taken their lives but the lunatic leader a live.
So if a nation like Iraq suffered and went through all this and after four bloody years of occupation with chaos every where they left prisons in their homes waiting for the death at any moment, suddenly we hear YES it’s a surge working we wining , what a win we got?
How many lives this adventure cost how many Mums, kids suffer year there are 5 million Iraqi orphans now and more suffering.
The nation now under the fatigue of wars , a fatigue of chaos, a fatigue of suffering that why surge work, you using them as a cloning media in library now they just don’t know but you cheering your surge on a lake of blood.
Jesus Christ, but that must have gotten someone’s attention. Yes, the Surge is working. But I believe it is not a surge of boots that is doing the work so much as it is a surge of hope.
Let just add this, whatever theory may we hear from vast media and with all reports some prizing surge some don’t, but there few facts working behind this war from the start.
1- Iraq as a country and as nation was brought to its knees due to inhuman sanction for 13 years people in Iraq seeing the death and no hope to they can continue their journey in this world peacefully they suffer and suffer they were patient for so long on hope this not can last there is end to it, but their hope day after day months after months year after year faded.
2- Before that Iraqi as nation fought for 8 years of bloody war which cost millions life and left widows mother kids hopeless and suffer fro war that thought to be push the evil from the east the united because their love to their land they did lesson to that lunatic Mullah and his ugly head who like to bring live to back age and drive people like sheep on their land in name of Islam.
3- After 8 years Iraqi nation again bombed and destroyed for its lunatic leader sin they suffer and lost more lives and can found their loved ones aftermath of that war no one tell them where are they but the new that they under the sand buried in their shelters as if earth quake in the desert taken them but its not God well it’s a military weapon invented to create and taken their lives but the lunatic leader a live.
So if a nation like Iraq suffered and went through all this and after four bloody years of occupation with chaos every where they left prisons in their homes waiting for the death at any moment, suddenly we hear YES it’s a surge working we wining , what a win we got?
How many lives this adventure cost how many Mums, kids suffer year there are 5 million Iraqi orphans now and more suffering.
The nation now under the fatigue of wars , a fatigue of chaos, a fatigue of suffering that why surge work, you using them as a cloning media in library now they just don’t know but you cheering your surge on a lake of blood.
neo, I asked but you neither responding nor took action what I asked, sham on you if you live with people who are racist hatemongering driving this space.
January 3rd, 2008 at 1:08 pm
providing an enclave from which jihad or dawa is launched.
Then go after OBL and his family like what you doing in Iraq you had 50,000 in camps, some of those are family members who have done nothing, why them OBL family still their touring US and other part or word or their long tail of money there in Saudi. Did that need a genius brain to know this?
Oh yes they are our friends keep them signing billion of dollars deals with small bribe to princes they are good.
January 3rd, 2008 at 1:25 pm
We have camps right here in our country.
What’s with your petualant demand for perfection? It’s never going to happen.
I have hard time accepting arguments such as “Why didn’t you attack country X instead.”
Because of all the ME countries , Iraq was the most politically acceptible nation to invade.
The idiocy of Saddam was like a sort of begging to be attacked.
So we went into Iraq first.. and boy oh boy listen to the baseless charges “Illegal war” “War criminal”. “war based on lies” etc…. and this is from a war that will probably be the war wth the most UN justification.
Can you imagine all the emotional reaction had the US invaded another country!!
And secondly, you’d be against that war no matter what.
So your argument is disingenious.
January 3rd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
>Vince P is forwarding an argument similar to the CHristian doctrine hating the sin but loving the sinner.
Well I saw it more like, I hate NAZI’ism.
Were all German’s NAZIs? No of course not.
January 3rd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Slightly off the topic of the proximate posts, but putting the thread back on its original topic…
Last night I watched “Under Fire,” a 1983 movie about journalists covering the fighting in Nicaragua.
Very enlightening, in a Rathergate kind of way. Long story short, the “journalists” fall in love with the Sandinistas (I know you’re surprised), fake a photograph to help them win, and then cover it up. Closing shot of happy throngs, flags waving, etc.
No mention that the Sandinistas were Castro and the Soviets proxies (that got left on the cutting room floor, I guess), but lots of indication that Somoza was our proxy. The communist revolutionaries were, of course, sweetness and light, and merely bored opponents to death with Marxist ideology, whereas government forces brutally killed all and sundry.
But most telling of all was the frank, matter of fact, and unapologetic admission that journalists make up stories to advance left-wing goals.
No wonder Rather was stunned to be caught out. It was business as usual.
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Vince P, stick to the point I made, try to restrain your though and DO NOT change the subject, answer straight the point rise accordingly about your hateful views.
So did you know who changing the subject NOW?
January 3rd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Truth:
1. Please use correct English…and learn to spell.
2. A good friend of mine - female, as it happens - was put up against a wall in Iran and shot dead. Her mistake? Starting a medical college for women.
She was both a PhD and an MD from Harvard Medical School. trying to do something that would help Iranian women. And men too when you come down to it.
Now I should retain sympathy for Islam? The excuse for her death was that she violated the Qu’ran rules for women.
Nice religion, eh?
“Islam is the stupidest of the monotheisms”: Schopenhauer. I have to agree with that Kraut.
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
ONe of the biggest contributions the Internet makes to society is that it acts as a flytrap for all manner of bigots, criminals and deviants.
How many criminals get nailed after either organizing or bragging about their crimes via email or on the Internet?
In politics, people like neo-neocon destroy any potential political career they may have by welcoming hate-mongering nonsense like the idiocy spouted by Vince P and many other Muslim-haters here, while banning people like me, who simply voice liberal views and answer ad hominem in kind with wit.
I really appreciate that neo-neocon banned me from posting here, because the record of that will last forever, as will the record of the people here who haven’t been banned after calling for killing all Muslims and overthrowing the government by violence and so on.
Had neoneo not banned me and others, she could argue that this is simply a free forum and she can’t control what people say.
But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.
Should she ever harbor any thoughts of seeking political office or a government position, her embrace of anti-Muslim hate will be all right here for anyone to see at the blog she controls.
Thanks neo-neocon!
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Bunkerbuster:
You’re welcome, jerk.
There…I have become EVIL.
A nice feeling, all in all.
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Good Ole Charlie, first apologies to you and other friends here for my English mistakes.
Secondly Khomeini and his ilk’s were an Iranian Shiite Muslim, and Ayatollah is Iranians a Shiite title.
Shiite Muslims account for less than 10% of the Muslim population, and are therefore not representative of Islam. Also you need to understand that not all Shiite same as Iran Shiite, may be your commanders on the ground in Iraq tells the truth about what I mentioned.
May also pick your attention that your administrations support Iranian /Iraqi Mullah Al-Hakim who now the Iraqi women and Iraqi Christians killed because of this lunatic mullah and he enjoy his time of US support for him and his brigade “Bader Force” Iran crated and trained Militia!
But I feel the sorrow in you about your poor friend with the crimes done for here by those criminals also who hold the US embassy hostages, but keep in mind what 25 Millions in Iraq suffering and some killed because of REGIM CHANGE WAR?
Is it same sorrow for Arab/Iraqi or THEY ARE DIFFERENT?
January 3rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm
ONe of the biggest contributions the Internet makes to society is that it acts as a flytrap for all manner of bigots, criminals and deviants.
We had to find something to fulfill that function between Democratic National Conventions.
Sorry. Couldn’t resist.
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Say, Bunkie:
If you were banned, and are gloating about how being banned makes you such a Good Person…
WHY ARE YOU COMMENTING HERE?
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Tom Grey - Liberty Dad Says:
January 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Islam is currently against Human Rights,
It’s not Islam, those leaders in charge of Islamic nations, those some of them US friendly regimes who are violating currently against Human Rights, like Al-Saud, Al-Subah, Al-Thani, Qdaffi, Hussni Mubark and on and on
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
“But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.
Should she ever harbor any thoughts of seeking political office or a government position, her embrace of anti-Muslim hate will be all right here for anyone to see at the blog she controls.
Thanks neo-neocon!”
———————————————
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I used to post here too and was blocked because I was too “liberal”. Why not just have your audience understand the “comments will be posted after approval of the site” instead of blocking dissenting opinions? This act of blocking those who don’t tow the line, and allowing the outrageous anti muslim spew from those like Vince P speaks volumes about how much you truly value (or more likely not) a dailogue. As I have said under my previous posting name (Laura), you people are only interested in hearing yourselves think.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Gray, even though we didn’t see eye to eye on a number of things. The military is not fighting a Holy war Vince. Vince, by saying that you don’t accept Islam and that it has nothing to do with accepting Muslims is just like Coulters quote “we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them all to Christianity”. This sort of sentiment is counter productive to our long term security interests in the long term, as it drives moderate Muslims into the shadows when they’re lumped into the “islamofascist” stew.
Good Day.
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
So “Laura” was “Bonnie” all along, and got “bumped” because she was “too liberal.” Funny, I thought it was because she just didn’t have a clue. Also funny, that she had oodles of time as “Laura” to post inane comments ad nauseam.
…and if they’re “banned,” how come they’re still showing up?
BTW, it’s “toe the line.” As in bare-knuckles boxing. See “Far and Away.”
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:59 pm
“Had neoneo not banned me and others, she could argue that this is simply a free forum and she can’t control what people say.
But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.”
Exactly! You are perfectly fine with Vince P skinhead remarks yet ban people like myself (posting on a different computer) as well as others who dissent? How democratic is that? Perhaps it’s not supposed to be democratic. Perhaps it’s more a matter of reflecting in your comments what YOU feel comfortable with. I find it curious that you allow some of these comments at all without at least making a boundary statement to those who’s posts are consistently full of hate and no substance.
January 3rd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Stumbley, they have been blocked for weeks. My computer IP address was blocked altogether. I am posting on a different computer.
Looking back over the previous comments, I grabbed a fabulous book that I read in the Fall called “desert queen”, which is a biography of Gertrude Bell. I found it very interesting that after all the work she did to try and bring the Kurds, Sunni and Shiites together, in the end, her loyalty lied with her country in backing a Faisal (her choice) and the distince diffences with Al Saud. It’s interesting as well to see how fragile the construction was even at that time. The Brits counted on the tribes to help to defeat the Turks with promises of sovereignty, only to be held back by a mandate that Britain have controlling interests in their oil fields.
It’s really interesting to re read this book and recommend it to others, for whatever it’s worth.
January 3rd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Stumbley, they have been blocked for weeks. My computer IP address was blocked altogether.
Good job too, neo.
Blaura, I suspect you weren’t blocked for being too liberal, but for being too inane. There’s a difference between the two, although it’s sometimes hard to discern.
January 3rd, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Blaura, it’s neo-neocon’s blog. She makes the rules. She can exercise control over what gets posted here. She’s the one who says who can post here, and who can’t. And, obviously she isn’t controlling what you say, because you’re here, still blabbering away (on a borrowed computer, to get around her block—nice.).
And, seeing what a twit you are, and how desperate for attention, I could not care less about your book recommendations, or anything else you have to say. Undemocratic of me (heh, heh), but there you are.
January 3rd, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Makes me think of certain evangelicals who, because the Bible says that the gospel will be met with persecution, believe that when they meet with persecution that it’s the gospel and not the fact that they’re insufferable jerks.
“…while banning people like me, who simply voice liberal views and answer ad hominem in kind with wit.”
Yesh, this is why you were banned. *simply* for liberal views and *wit*.
January 3rd, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Sadly and ironcly the comment went far beyound the mainlines and main topis, suprisisngly neoneo did not control that whatsover.
but let go back to main topic, this artical very intersting one and really rises many important issue in rgards to Iraq.
Doomed international
January 3rd, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I’m always amused by the Leftist obsession with calling people racist or whatot who have views that they dont like .
Its not enough to simply disagree with me.. NOOOO , i have to be made into a skinhead or a racist.
Note that I backed up my opinion with detailed facts about the Islamic religion. Did any of these smear-peddlers correct any errors I made? Nope.
Until the Thought Police learn how to actually rebut arguments they dont like, they should get used to having their Police action of labelling people be laughed at.
January 3rd, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Get out of my house,
Wonder how many doors kicked and broken through Iraqi’s houses with the did not counted inMissing the Big Story in Iraq
January 3rd, 2008 at 7:59 pm
From Truth’s story:
“We are here to help. We are here to search for bad people,” said Lieutenant Harmon.
“The quicker people like you start to help us the better,” he said, adding: “We apologise and we will fix your door. You have my word. But you must try to help.”
We’ve got to be the nicest and most polite “War Criminals” in the History of War.
She got paid for the damage as well….
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Note that I backed up my opinion with detailed facts about the Islamic religion.
Not so much. You claimed, in a looney rant, that Koran “was given by Satan”.
I told you you were loopy and unhelpful and then you quoted the Hadith instead of the Koran to prove your point.
I corrected you and called you on that.
I don’t like the dirty leftists and I don’t like the crazy Christian ranting.
It’s unhelpful….
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
>Not so much. You claimed, in a looney rant, that Koran “was given by Satan”.
It was. Do you honestly think God sent Gabriel to Mohemmed?
>I told you you were loopy and unhelpful and then you quoted the Hadith instead of the Koran to prove your point.
Yeah.. so ? Why do you think that is significant? I dont know why you think you’ve proved anything… I never claimed they were from the Koran.
>I don’t like the dirty leftists and I don’t like the crazy Christian ranting.
It’s unhelpful….
My religion has nothing to do with this. most christians quite happily accept Islam’s lie that they worship the same God of the Bible.
It’s been helpful to call people crazy loopy ranters though, right?
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Bunk: But we now have proof, archived forever, that she does exercise control.
Should she ever harbor any thoughts of seeking political office or a government position, her embrace of anti-Muslim hate will be all right here for anyone to see at the blog she controls.
Thanks neo-neocon!
Heyy, Bunk’s back, and loony as ever! And Bonnie too, the terrorist symp!! And both of them whining, in harmony, that they can’t posstt!!! Whyy, mom — I mean neo?! Why does that horrible Vince P get to post and we don’t?!! Huh?! Whhyyy??!!!
Ah, well. It’s not good to feed the trolls, I know (especially for the trolls themselves, since it only worsens their already neurotic, juvenile, narcissitic obsessions), but that bit about how shutting down, on her own blog, driveling and boring attempts at heckling from trolls will end neo’s future political career forever is too funny to let pass. Because you just know that what Bunker’s doing (like so many of these psychically damaged lefties) is projecting his own worst fears upon his enemies — as though everyone fantasizes, as he so obviously does, of a future career with power and patronage, and the adoring huzzahs of the masses. Can’t speak for neo, of course, Bunker, but — no, they don’t.
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Nothing upsets the anti-america crazies more than someonne who isn’t apologitic when discussing the enemies of America.
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:18 pm
On a more substantive note:
I think Vince P has made some valid points, though I don’t, yet, agree with his conclusions. Just to be clear about where I’m coming from, I’m not a Christian, nor even a theist. Nevertheless, I think this struggle has some definite religious overtones, more so even than did the struggles with two of the past century’s evil ideologies, fascism and communism (and both of those had religious overtones as well). Note first that the “bloody borders of Islam” aren’t just those abutting the Christians and Jews, but the ones next to Hindus, Buddhists, and any other non-muslim belief group they encounter as well. But, second, note that the real existential threat to Islam doesn’t stem from any traditional religion but simply from the modern world itself. The modern world, of course, is a largely secular world, based upon science, technology, and freedom — but if we enlarge the notion of “religion” to encompass any system of deeply held beliefs and values, then the modern world is based upon such a system as well, with reason, efficiency, and the sanctity of the individual at its core. Such a world, of course, represents a problem for all the great religions, arising as they do from simpler, traditional societies, based primarily on faith — but it represents a special threat to the youngest, most violent from birth, and most brittle of those religions, which is Islam. Whether such a religion can co-exist with the modern world is a very real question — I don’t think we know the answer yet, but I don’t think the question can simply be waved or wished away either.
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:46 pm
I think those are good points, Sally.
I am, in fact, a Christian.
Whether such a religion can co-exist with the modern world is a very real question — I don’t think we know the answer yet, but I don’t think the question can simply be waved or wished away either.
Well, if the modern world makes it too painful not to coexist peacefully, they will find a way to re-interpret it to make it less painful–
like Mormons did….
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:49 pm
The real reasons behind better security are 1) the cooperation of Iran; 2) the freeze on all paramilitary activity by the Mahdi Army of Muqtada al-Sadr; 3) the anti-al-Qaeda Sunni groups (the Anbar Awakening Council) that currently number approximately 30,000.
Speaking from his new home in Damascus, where he has fled terrorist bombings in his own country, the young man added: “I long for the days of Saddam Hussein. If you stayed away from politics, you lived a decent and respectable life. Nowadays, you are a target for terrorist attacks whether you are a grocer, a barber, a painter or a politician. Nobody is safe in this Iraq.” He wrapped up: “My mother’s generation used to go out in Baghdad wearing mini-skirts in the 1950s. Do you think they, or your people in their 20s, can do that today without being accused of being infidels?”
So who killing these Iraqi, who is behind killing of women in Iraq because of their dress or not cover their head which never been a case in the modern history of Iraq?
Look for Mullah supported by thier iranian Militia?
This is the cooperation of Iran in Iraq.
Sally,
“bloody borders of Islam” aren’t just those abutting the Christians and Jews,
Very clever,
Jews killed in France in Eastern Europe and finely the biggest crimes ever in the history in Germany, no such crimes done to Christians and Jews at this scale by Muslims in the last 1400 years, if you try to deform the history its your choose go for it, but the abutting Jews killed and massacred by their abuttingChristians.
Further East ask your HERO Dr. H. Kissinger what he did in Cambodia, Philippines, and South East Asia what crimes done their the history recorded all, we do not learn history from Sally’s mouth.
January 3rd, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Trying to change the subject doesn’t help, “Truth”. Try reflecting instead.
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:01 pm
The modern world, of course, is a largely secular world, based upon science, technology, and freedom —
Did you read the history of Islam?
Did you ever hear those theorist and Islamic philosophy in Medicine, Mathematics in physics and Geography, astronomy so none so forth?
Did you know the medical sciences toughs in Europe in 1700 based and referenced to those Muslims Sciences and Muslim scientists?
The fact is there is no conflict whatsoever what you list of the modern world today based upon science, technology, and freedom and Islam as a religion.
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Good try Sally,
There is no change on the subject here, like your follow VP doing, but I am putting the facts in front of your rambling that can not be deniable
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:19 pm
The real reasons behind better security are 1) the cooperation of Iran; 2) the freeze on all paramilitary activity by the Mahdi Army of Muqtada al-Sadr; 3) the anti-al-Qaeda Sunni groups (the Anbar Awakening Council) that currently number approximately 30,000.
OK, sounds good. What’s the problem?
From the article it seems like the author just wants more Shi’a killed.
As I said, I don’t expect Syrians to support Iraq becoming stable and free. It would cause trouble for well-off Syrians.
I’ve always wanted to visit Damascus, maybe someday I will be able to go as a tourist….
Speaking from his new home in Damascus, where he has fled terrorist bombings in his own country, the young man added: “I long for the days of Saddam Hussein.
Coward! Stop longing and go fight for your country. If you are smart and resourceful, maybe you can even be the next Saddam.
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Truth, the fact is, like it or not, that Islam does not get along with *any* of its neighbors. Americans tend to only see and accept claims that it’s something that *we’ve* done. Sally brings up the question, what about Hindus? What about people who aren’t Western and aren’t American? Which neighbor does Islam get along with well or at all?
Frankly, I’d love an example of that because it would give a lot of hope that peace and coexistence is possible.
And Vince is right when he says that *we* want to believe that it’s not Islam. We want to believe that we can all get along. I sincerely hope that Vince is wrong.
Show us some examples of tolerant Muslim society.
You said:
“Did you read the history of Islam?
Did you ever hear those theorist and Islamic philosophy in Medicine, Mathematics in physics and Geography, astronomy so none so forth?”
“Did you know the medical sciences toughs in Europe in 1700 based and referenced to those Muslims Sciences and Muslim scientists?”
The answer? Yes. I’m entirely aware that the middle East has been a source of mathematical and scientific thought.
In 1700 or earlier. Waaaaay earlier. The region gives us our numbering system and a great many foundational concepts. Most of them, it seems, before Muhammad arrived and took over. That golden age? Where did it go?
What I’d like to know is… What has Islam done for the world lately?
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:29 pm
The fact is there is no conflict whatsoever what you list of the modern world today based upon science, technology, and freedom and Islam as a religion.
That’s not entirely true.
You know that Salahfis reject many modern ideas, technology and culture. They wish to turn back the clock to the days of The Prophet.
You can’t have it both ways….
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:45 pm
As I said, I don’t expect Syrians to support Iraq becoming stable and free. It would cause trouble for well-off Syrians.
Gray not just Syrians fears the democracy’s and freedom’s birth and raising in Iraq, but all neighbours around Iraq fears same in some degree or in another, the only differences some are friendly regime to US more than Syrians that may be your reasons putting Syrian only in your list.
OK, sounds good. What’s the problem?
I second your statement Gray it’s sound good and OK, I wish none of Iraqi killed after GW announced “mission Accomplished” but what some Iraqi’s neighbours have interest beyond what US went to Iraq to help Iraqis, that make US lost her way and directions in Iraq which in the end we seeing Iraqi paying very high price for this war instead of thrown tyrant regime and start building the country.
I’ve always wanted to visit Damascus, maybe someday I will be able to go as a tourist….
It should not be a problem Gray, Syria more save that Lebanon or Algeria or Sudan, go and do it you never regret it, enjoy your time and the hospitality of Arab and from Muslims Christians, and Jews there.
See you soon
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:50 pm
I long suscribed to the flypaper theory, that several thousand blooded jihadist veterans from Afghanistan, Kamir, Chechyna, Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza would come to Iraq to fight US troops. Our men volunteer, why wouldn’t they? These men were capable NCO types, able to recruit, train, lead, lay ambushes, maintain and use all manner of small arms and explosives, maneuver, plan, anticipate, feint, attack, establish grids for fire suppression, etc. There has been serious attrition in their ranks since 2003 and they are not at all easily replaced. The very professional fight they put up in Fallujah for instance, cost them roughly 1500 men. The Left would have us believe that Abul the shoe clerk from Cairo is able to leave Egypt one day and in a week’s time be in Iraq and able to bring expertise to a war zone equal to that of our troops. What an absurd notion but it has traction amongst those who listen to pundits and civilian analysts who have not been in the fight, or any fight for that matter. The tide has clearly turned as evidenced by the jihadist being only able to lash out at civilians, Iraqi civilians in markets, mosques and recruting stations. Iraqis are saying no to the thuggery and are not buying into the myth that they are valiantly engaging the imperilist infidels from America, who by the way are in an unprecedented manner learning about the culture they are enmeshed with and respecting it. The Saddamites offer nothing to the Iraqi people either and can provide no security or national development. Al Sadr knows the corner has been turned too and there is enough stability and growth that he can be easily replaced once killed and he will not be missed. I don’t buy into the notion that the current level of stability exists by the grace of Al Sadr. No wonder the Dems are not pushing Iraq anymore as a campaign issue.
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:54 pm
You know that Salahfis reject many modern ideas,
I argue all the time that if we got people in ME educated and knew how to right and to read in the right way (Not Saudi Madrash) we will beet these “Salahfis”.
If you ask some Iraqi around what’s their country doing in 1960 , 1970 ( UN report counted 85% of Iraqi educated at that time) the society was all rejecting these bad and old fashion Mullah and those Mullah was humiliated there as most Iraq went to school , high school university get a job and live their life, but again now days what we seeing these turban Mullah running high each one trying to arrange his house to get a group of people with some support from outsider to be A Mullah which will end like Nasarallah in Lebanon and Stat inside State case these are Mullah creation society and thinking.
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Synova
like it or not, that Islam does not get along with *any* of its neighbours. Americans tend to only see and accept claims that it’s something that *we’ve* done.
May I ask you how many Americans worked and working specifically in Saudi from 1960 if not earlier till criminal lashed from his land and run the disgusting show using name of Islam?
Ask any American who worked in Saudi what tells you?
Is it Muslims bad? Is Islam bad? Did they threaten them because they are Christians?
Please let be very clear here westerns touring ME, before in 1900 and after you hardly find accidents of killing because they are “infidels” this ME this Muslims this Islam what change is many factors from inside the Arab/Muslims nations and some factor from outside ME both worked together give birth what we seeing now of hatred and killing whatever name of label used for that.
But if US went to Iraq without those BIG mistakes they done withouth listen to normal Iraq (not those Thugs poppet who living on you tax) Iraq will be a start in ME but as I said none of these surrounding love to see the rise of Star.
Show us some examples of tolerant Muslim society.
I don’t know what to say, you can change society in one day or month, Noah Freedman went to Iraq and produce nation building as if there is no nation this lets start from scratch and all falling down.
But may I ask you if you go inside US (Presumably you are US citizen) did you far walking talking making friends from Muslim community there?
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
the only differences some are friendly regime to US more than Syrians that may be your reasons putting Syrian only in your list.
That is true, but not the only reason–Syria is fairly stable (if not friendly), but both democracy and radicalism are threats to that stability.
…. in the end we seeing Iraqi paying very high price for this war instead of thrown tyrant regime and start building the country.
Saddam gave Iraqis something to die for. I think the new Iraq will give people something to live for.
Remember, we never wanted to ‘build a country’. We aren’t very good at that (but we are learning).
I can tell you right now that soldiers I know have come back from Iraq with a greater understanding, and appreciation, for Arab culture and hospitality–and food!
I think there will be long-lasting benefits from this conflict that people haven’t realized yet. Benefits that will prevent future conflicts….
enjoy your time and the hospitality of Arab and from Muslims Christians, and Jews there.
See you soon
Thank you. Someday I’ll bring my family: My wife really wants to visit the Middle East as well.
I argue all the time that if we got people in ME educated and knew how to right and to read in the right way (Not Saudi Madrash) we will beet these “Salahfis”.
I hope that American efforts are helping that. At the lowest level, soldiers are building schools and donating books and protecting teachers in schools.
Mullah running high each one trying to arrange his house to get a group of people with some support from outsider to be A Mullah which will end like Nasarallah in Lebanon and Stat inside State case these are Mullah creation society and thinking.
I understand you concern, but trust me, the America soldiers, officers and diplomats over there understand that concern.
They are not stupid and we absolutely do not want to see Iraq end up like Afghanistan after the Soviets: That won’t happen.
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Did you read the history of Islam?
Did you ever hear those theorist and Islamic philosophy in Medicine, Mathematics in physics and Geography, astronomy so none so forth?
Granted. Now in the interests of saving a great deal of time, could we perhaps confine the discussion to discussing the Islamic contributions of the last millennium?
January 3rd, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Oops.
Should have read:
“Granted. Now in the interests of saving a great deal of time, could we perhaps confine the discussion to the Islamic contributions of the last millennium?”
PIMF.
January 4th, 2008 at 1:17 am
Truth: …what change is many factors from inside the Arab/Muslims nations and some factor from outside ME both worked together give birth what we seeing now of hatred and killing whatever name of label used for that.
Yes, something changed. Many things changed, actually, but they all come under the heading of the spreading and globalization of the modern world, particularly if we include in that the sudden influx of oil wealth to what were largely desert tribes of the Middle East. This enormous expansion in wealth within a formerly undeveloped region, with all the access to a foreign technology, including especially of course weapons, that brings with it, combined with the steady, implacable pressure of Western, but really just modern, culture, through globalized communications, transportation, and industrialization — that would be enough to dislocate any tribal culture. But overlay that with a religion that has historic difficulties with any deviation from written texts and a proclivity toward violence from its inception, and you have the problem that Islam presents today, not only to its “infidels” but to its own believers as well.
Yes, “Truth”, once, when the world was a much darker place, Islam was among its lights. That makes it all the sadder that it’s been unable to keep pace since then.
January 4th, 2008 at 2:59 am
sudden influx of oil wealth to what were largely desert tribes of the Middle East.
May I add this please to clear your above statement?
from the time the oil discovered and in ME by Britt’s and then the Americans specially after Roosevelt meeting Al-Saudi the west enjoying first low prices of oil and continuous flow of oil which serve your development and building your country your societies for decade opposite what we see more and more corrupts leaders in ME specially Al-Saudi and most the gulf states who they interested in collecting and building their monarchy wealth and build their huarache of princes and kingdom both these option used to downgrading the society under these regimes, by left the society uneducated living on level of poverty far from the wealth that their land produces and restricting and spreading culture of fear and restrictions and adapted version of Islam that far from the soul of Islam but the enforce it to protect their regimes.
As for Iraq and Egypt may be Syria in thee places things are different but the counting wars after 1948 and conflicts with friendly regimes in the regions make things complicated.
So those wealth from oil spent on weapons yes but let be frankly who seduce those kings and bribe them to sing millions and billions of weaponry?
I addition to that how many American/ Britt’s served those kingdoms regimes and protecting them just to continue the flow of dollars.
That not mean in ant way there is problem to have western investments and companies employees working in ME but when its come as a tool that the regime protected by its their native people and their citizens here the problem set, and doubt that those American who worked in the desert land did know this fact and they knew that the wealth got to those tribes who help in 1900 before and after to get control of the desert.
Its same as the tyrant regime in Iraq f left withy interfering by US and get control of the oil wealth the scenario will same if not disastrous as he is ambitions to take control of the oil around the region to satisfy his hunger and greedy for wealth.
How many Saudi and Gulf youth went to US universities for decades who went to study and come back the serve the country, ten of thousands of them but because they are regime tribal selected they did care mush about society and its development as much as they get their share from the wealth of oil.
In other word I think the west have failed morally in the eyes of ME nations and people in its relation with wealthy regimes in ME
January 4th, 2008 at 3:10 am
Truth, we *want* to believe that Islam can live peacefully with its neighbors. In that regard, reports from Iraq such as those from Totten and others who do more than report headlines and car bombs, are quite reassuring.
On the other hand, you ask us not to believe what we can see with our own eyes. And you make excuses and tell us it’s our fault that we notice that the people who set out on purpose to blow up market places, or discos, or train stations, or children, or saw people’s heads off or torture and kill and desecrate prisoners… *our* prisoners are alive, fed, and still have their private parts *and* their heads… that people who *deliberately* undertake war in this manner are Islamic.
Because they are.
They might not be *representative* and I’d prefer to think that they aren’t. But just now in History, the people who undertake war by using terror methods on civilian populations, who routinely do vile things, those people are Islamic more often than not.
Oh, go ahead and charge that America violates the Geneva Conventions. Do you know why no one EVER accuses the people we fight of doing so? Because how do people conform to civilized conventions of war they’ve apparently never even heard of? The people we fight don’t violate one or two elements of the conventions, they systematically, purposefully, violate ALL of them as POLICY.
We are not bigots to notice that this is true.
As I said, military blogs and reports such as those from Michael Totten and Yon and others give me much hope because they show us people with families who aren’t trying to gas women and children in market places, who help to fix local christian churches and work together with others and make friends of our soldiers and who do seem, if they don’t have more sense than the neighbors we know, at least don’t have less.
January 4th, 2008 at 3:18 am
You say a whole bunch of stuff that is so *right*, Truth, and then you say this…
“…but let be frankly who seduce those kings and bribe them…”
“In other word I think the west have failed morally in the eyes of ME nations and people in its relation with wealthy regimes in ME.”
Yeah, my kids like to blame others for their own decisions as well. Wait, that’s unfair to my kids, who even though they are youths, know far better than to pretend that their actions are the responsibility of someone else’s seduction and not their own desires.
The money did what you say that it did, but it’s nothing more or less than old fashioned self-interest in the absence of effective checks and balances that made it work that way.
The oil isn’t going away any time soon.
Is the West going to be blamed forever for the sin of buying it from you?
January 4th, 2008 at 3:32 am
On the other hand, you ask us not to believe what we can see with our own eyes. And you make excuses and tell us it’s our fault that we notice that the people who set out on purpose to blow up market places,
I never said that and never meant that.
Do not put your words in my moth, go read my comments well and correct you thoughts.
Criminal are criminals Muslim. Or others there are no differences in fact if some one claiming he is Muslims and do killing innocents people we can not put him and regard him as Muslim according to Quranic teaching.
January 4th, 2008 at 3:48 am
There was interview with one Iraqi official (some references tells he is Iranian guy) a while ago reported in Alsharq Alawsat newspaper he said there are 23 foreign intelligence agencies working in Iraq!
So what are they doing? God knows
Also from many report those hired mercenaries and snipers and killers from around the world on of them very famous sniper from Yugoslavia working in Iraq.
On top of that those gangs and killers who are looking for the opportunities in lawlessness land which Iraq land.
So all those sharing with the terrorists in the land of Mesopotamian now what we seeing of killing we can not be sure which one have the Iraqi blood in his hand.
can you tell?
January 4th, 2008 at 3:58 am
Appendix: Names and country of identified suicide bombers in Iraq
This list contains the names and country of origins of 101 known suicide bombers in Iraq.
Three of the known bombers are females. The bombers came from the following countries:
Saudi Arabia (44), Italy (8), Kuwait (7), Iraq (7), Syria (6), Libya (3), Belgium (2), France
________________________________________
Suicide Terrorism in Iraq
(2), Spain (2), Jordan (2), Egypt (2), Lebanon (1), Tunisia (1), Morocco (1), Britain (1),
Turkey (1), and Unknown (9).
Name
Country
1 Adnan, Muhammad Zayd Muhammad (Abu’Umayer al-Shami)
Syria
2 Afalah, Mohammed
Spain (Moroccan)
3 al-’Anizi, Ahmed (Abu Ma’az)
Iraq
4 al-’Anizi, Rawaf
Kuwait
5 al-Abdo, Uruha (Abu Abdel Karim)
Syria
6 al-Ajami, Khaled (Abu Al-Zubayr al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
7 al-Ansari, Abu-Basir
N/A
8 al-Bahili, Naser Bin Fahd (Abu Fahd)
Saudi Arabia
9 al-Banna, Raed Mansoor
Jordan
10 al-Baqmi, Abu Zayad
Saudi Arabia
11 al-Dhaleai, Wail
Britain (Yemeni)
12 al-Dousari, Abu Abdullah (brother of Abu Harith)
Saudi Arabia
13 al-Dousari, Abu Harith
Saudi Arabia
14 al-Dulaymi, Widad Jamil Jasim (female suicide bomber)
Iraq
15 al-Fahmi, Suluh Salih
Saudi Arabia
16 al-Falaj, Adel Bin Ali
Saudi Arabia
17 al-Ghamidi, Ahmed Said Ahmed
Saudi Arabia
18 al-Ghuninam, Sami Bin Sulieman
Saudi Arabia
19 al-Hajari, Mansoor (Abu-Wadha al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
20 al-Halil, Mohammed
Saudi Arabia
21 al-Harbi, Faris Abdullah
Saudi Arabia
22 al-Hijazi, Abi Amama
Saudi Arabia
23 al-Hijazi, Abu Hurayrah
Saudi Arabia
24 al-Iraqi, Abu Ayoub
Iraq
25 al-Iraqi, Yassin Jarrad
Iraq
26 al-Jumayli, Abu Amar
Iraq
27 al-Libi, Abu Abdullal
Libya
28 al-Libi, Abu Bara
Libya
29 al-Maghribi, Abu Osama
Morocco
30 al-Masri, Abu Farid
Italy (Egyptian)
31 al-Masri, Abu Omar
Egypt
32 al-Muhajir, Abu Abdullah
Egypt
33 al-Muhajir, Abu-Zubayr
N/A
34 al-Mutayri, Abu al-Walid
Saudi Arabia
35 al-Mutayri, Haydarah
Saudi Arabia
36 al-Mutayri, Majid Bin Sahnt
Saudi Arabia
37 al-Najdi, Abu Abdel Malik
Saudi Arabia
38 al-Najdi, Abu Na’im
Saudi Arabia
39 al-Najdi, Abu Nur
Saudi Arabia
40 al-Najdi, Abu Ubayda (Abdullah)
Saudi Arabia
(Continued on next page)
618
M. M. Hafez
Name
Country
41 al-Nufay’i, Abu al-Zubayr
N/A
42 al-Qahtani, Abu Ans al-Tahami
Saudi Arabia
43 al-Qarnamri, Hamoud ’Ayad
N/A
44 al-Qarni, Abdullah al-Buhayri
Saudi Arabia
45 al-Qurayshi, Abdul Rahman Sa’ad (Abu Sa’ad al-Makki)
Saudi Arabia
46 al-Rahimi, Ahmed (or Ahmed al-Fawal Abu Hassan)
Saudi Arabia
47 al-Rashid, Abdel Aziz Hamd
Saudi Arabia
48 al-Rashid, Yazid Bin Qayid (Abu Juhayman)
Saudi Arabia
49 al-Rumi, Fahd (Abu ’Amshi)
N/A
50 al-Ruwayli, Farhan Mayes
N/A
51 al-Ruwayli, Jamil Battah
N/A
52 al-Sa’ayri, Abu Mashari
Saudi Arabia
53 al-Saraqibi, Warid al-Qudur
Syria
54 al-Sarmini, Muhammad Sha’aban Abu Abdullah
Saudi Arabia
55 al-Shamali, Abu-Mu’awiyah
Saudi Arabia
56 al-Shamari, Abd-al-Aziz (Abu-Ahmad al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
57 al-Shamari, Abdullah al-Zuba’i
N/A
58 al-Shamari, Abu Abd
N/A
59 al-Shamari, Abu Musab
Saudi Arabia
60 al-Shamari, Fahd Nayef al-Shulaqi (Abu ’Amshi al-Shamari) Saudi Arabia
61 al-Shamari, Khaled Bin Khalaf al-Sulayti (Abu Mut’ib)
Saudi Arabia
62 al-Shamari, Majid Salamah al-Haqs
Saudi Arabia
63 al-Shamari, Muhammad Bin Rahayman al-Tawmi (Abu Salih) Saudi Arabia
64 al-Shamari, Nawaf bin Mishl Al Khalil
Saudi Arabia
65 al-Shamari, Nusha Mujalli Munayfir (female suicide bomber) Iraq
66 al-Shamari, Walid al-Asmar
Saudi Arabia
67 al-Shayi’a, Ahmed Bin Abdullah Bin Abdel Rahman
Saudi Arabia
68 al-Shukri, Salih (Abu Ibrahim al-Makki)
Saudi Arabia
69 al-Subay’i, Nayif Salih (Abu-Salih al-Kuwaiti)
Kuwait
70 al-Suri, Abu ’Umayr
Syria
71 al-Suri, Abu Khaled or Abu Khaled al-Falastini
Syria
71 al-Suri, Abu Muhammad
Syria
73 al-Suri, Abu Ubayda
Syria
74 al-Tamimi, Abdelaziz Bin Saud Bin Mahmoud al-Gharbi
al-Mufidi
Saudi Arabia
75 al-Tunisi, Abu Samir
Tunisia
76 al-Turki, Abu Abdullah (Azzad Akanji)
Turkey
77 al-Urduni, Abu Sulaiman
Jordan
78 al-Usaymi, Nawaf
Saudi Arabia
79 al-Usaymi, Saf