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	<title>Comments on: Vaccinations and the demon-haunted world</title>
	<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 07:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Trimegistus</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61619</link>
		<author>Trimegistus</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61619</guid>
					<description>The anti-vaccination movement is partly driven by chiropractors.  I'm not blaming all of them, mind, but I do notice that the medical "authorities" quoted in anti-vaccination letters to the editor, etc., are often chiropractors.  The whole premise of their quackery is that all disease is caused by misalignments of the spine, so obviously vaccination and the germ theory of disease don't really fit into that paradigm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The anti-vaccination movement is partly driven by chiropractors.  I&#8217;m not blaming all of them, mind, but I do notice that the medical &#8220;authorities&#8221; quoted in anti-vaccination letters to the editor, etc., are often chiropractors.  The whole premise of their quackery is that all disease is caused by misalignments of the spine, so obviously vaccination and the germ theory of disease don&#8217;t really fit into that paradigm.</p>
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		<title>By: Vanderleun</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61624</link>
		<author>Vanderleun</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61624</guid>
					<description>This is just another phase of what I think of as the "sacrifice of the innocents to the gods of intellectual insanity."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just another phase of what I think of as the &#8220;sacrifice of the innocents to the gods of intellectual insanity.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: suedenim</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61633</link>
		<author>suedenim</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61633</guid>
					<description>It's ironic that the same problem is arising both among rich liberal Western idiots and among ignorant medieval death-cult victims in the poorest parts of the world (Polio is making a comeback in Afghanistan....)

As a kid (b. 1969), I remember wondering what happened to all these "childhood diseases."  On reruns of old TV sitcoms (some as late as "The Brady Bunch"), things like measles and chicken pox were recurring plot points.  And generally not terribly serious ones, just a "oh, something every kid gets once" sort of thing.

How come these TV kids regularly got these diseases, but it had never happened to either me &lt;i&gt;or any kid I knew?&lt;/i&gt; 

It wasn't until much later that I realized Beaver Cleaver, the Bradys, et al, hadn't gotten those annoying shots I had to suffer through, and just how effective they were....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s ironic that the same problem is arising both among rich liberal Western idiots and among ignorant medieval death-cult victims in the poorest parts of the world (Polio is making a comeback in Afghanistan&#8230;.)</p>
<p>As a kid (b. 1969), I remember wondering what happened to all these &#8220;childhood diseases.&#8221;  On reruns of old TV sitcoms (some as late as &#8220;The Brady Bunch&#8221;), things like measles and chicken pox were recurring plot points.  And generally not terribly serious ones, just a &#8220;oh, something every kid gets once&#8221; sort of thing.</p>
<p>How come these TV kids regularly got these diseases, but it had never happened to either me <i>or any kid I knew?</i> </p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t until much later that I realized Beaver Cleaver, the Bradys, et al, hadn&#8217;t gotten those annoying shots I had to suffer through, and just how effective they were&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: nyomythus</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61639</link>
		<author>nyomythus</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61639</guid>
					<description>What's the use of mysticism, spiritualism, even in traditional theology without divine intervention from time to time ... who are we humans to mess around with destiny, god's design, or as I've said mess around, over-ride, attenuate the judgment of god. Human beings are unique from nature according to theism; it's said that we have souls, that we are the masters and caretakers of the nature, and we believe we are until the earths crust cracks erupting and innocent people die, or disasters from what we should expect from meteorological sources. This is not exclusive to any one political affiliation, these people are on both sides, but again we begin to see the source of such stupidity, and the inability for one to argue against the other for when they do they argue against themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the use of mysticism, spiritualism, even in traditional theology without divine intervention from time to time &#8230; who are we humans to mess around with destiny, god&#8217;s design, or as I&#8217;ve said mess around, over-ride, attenuate the judgment of god. Human beings are unique from nature according to theism; it&#8217;s said that we have souls, that we are the masters and caretakers of the nature, and we believe we are until the earths crust cracks erupting and innocent people die, or disasters from what we should expect from meteorological sources. This is not exclusive to any one political affiliation, these people are on both sides, but again we begin to see the source of such stupidity, and the inability for one to argue against the other for when they do they argue against themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61643</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61643</guid>
					<description>I must correct the assertion that 100% of vaccination is needed to prevent epidemic. Real figures are more modest, usually 70-80% coverage is enough. And, also, by the very nature of the procedure in some cases autoimmune complications, such as asthma (the most severe of them) in some fraction of vaccinated is inevitable. These vaccines usually contain not only target antigen, but a lot of other proteins and polysaccharides that can provoke autoimmune response. The number of such complications is now many, many times bigger than it was 40 years ago, because for healthy development of infant immune system, breast feeding for a year at least is needed; this was routine then and almost ceased now, so autoimmune maladies of babies are many times more frequent now.
In my family a very disastrous thing happened with our elder son. For three years my wife was against smallpox vaccination of him, but at last she has to agree to make him attend day care centre. He got tubecular encephalomeningitis as a result, this deformed his whole development afterward: he got a form of epilepsy and all subsequent psychologic troubles. And all this was in vain, because the next year after vaccination it was advertised that natural smallpox was globally eradicated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must correct the assertion that 100% of vaccination is needed to prevent epidemic. Real figures are more modest, usually 70-80% coverage is enough. And, also, by the very nature of the procedure in some cases autoimmune complications, such as asthma (the most severe of them) in some fraction of vaccinated is inevitable. These vaccines usually contain not only target antigen, but a lot of other proteins and polysaccharides that can provoke autoimmune response. The number of such complications is now many, many times bigger than it was 40 years ago, because for healthy development of infant immune system, breast feeding for a year at least is needed; this was routine then and almost ceased now, so autoimmune maladies of babies are many times more frequent now.<br />
In my family a very disastrous thing happened with our elder son. For three years my wife was against smallpox vaccination of him, but at last she has to agree to make him attend day care centre. He got tubecular encephalomeningitis as a result, this deformed his whole development afterward: he got a form of epilepsy and all subsequent psychologic troubles. And all this was in vain, because the next year after vaccination it was advertised that natural smallpox was globally eradicated.</p>
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		<title>By: Bugs</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61644</link>
		<author>Bugs</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61644</guid>
					<description>Interesting how, in the field of public health, "big government" was actually a positive thing. I wonder if its success in fighting epidemic diseases convinced many people that it could succeed in fighting social and economic "diseases" as well.

I'm just old enough to remember stuff on TV about iron lungs and kids with crutches and massive metal leg braces - polio. And I used to be scared of ending up like that. Maybe some of these parents didn't watch the same stations I did.

On the other hand, I think a lot of parents feel the need (consciously or not) to have more control over their children's lives - and their own. Refusing vaccines is probably just their way of "caring."

Unfortunately, unless the government cracks down on them, they won't reconsider their position until another outbreak of flu or TB kills some of their loved ones. Then, of course, they'll blame the government for letting it happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting how, in the field of public health, &#8220;big government&#8221; was actually a positive thing. I wonder if its success in fighting epidemic diseases convinced many people that it could succeed in fighting social and economic &#8220;diseases&#8221; as well.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just old enough to remember stuff on TV about iron lungs and kids with crutches and massive metal leg braces - polio. And I used to be scared of ending up like that. Maybe some of these parents didn&#8217;t watch the same stations I did.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think a lot of parents feel the need (consciously or not) to have more control over their children&#8217;s lives - and their own. Refusing vaccines is probably just their way of &#8220;caring.&#8221;</p>
<p>Unfortunately, unless the government cracks down on them, they won&#8217;t reconsider their position until another outbreak of flu or TB kills some of their loved ones. Then, of course, they&#8217;ll blame the government for letting it happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Bugs</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61645</link>
		<author>Bugs</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61645</guid>
					<description>sergey - That's a terrible thing, and I'm sorry it happened to your son. Obviously the issue looks different when your own family is affected. My apologies if I sounded callous in my previous comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sergey - That&#8217;s a terrible thing, and I&#8217;m sorry it happened to your son. Obviously the issue looks different when your own family is affected. My apologies if I sounded callous in my previous comment.</p>
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		<title>By: nyomythus</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61646</link>
		<author>nyomythus</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61646</guid>
					<description>Sergy &lt;i&gt;In my family a very disastrous&lt;/i&gt; Man, Sergy, I am sorry to hear this, you remind us how very serious this issue is. Because of your post I'm going to make it a special point this evening to review with my wife our sons recent vaccinations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergy <i>In my family a very disastrous</i> Man, Sergy, I am sorry to hear this, you remind us how very serious this issue is. Because of your post I&#8217;m going to make it a special point this evening to review with my wife our sons recent vaccinations.</p>
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		<title>By: neo-neocon</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61658</link>
		<author>neo-neocon</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61658</guid>
					<description>sergey: Sorry to hear about what happened to your son.

Your story reminds me that the son of some very good friends of my parents almost died from the smallpox vaccination he got as a baby.  He was exempt from having another, even though in those years it was required.

My point is not that complications of vaccines never happen.  They do.  The point is that vaccines are necessary to keep the diseases from spreading the way they used to, which would be far worse.  And yes indeed, it doesn't require 100% immunization to do this.  But if measles could get going in a place like San Diego, with its extremely high rate of immunization, it doesn't take much to realize that if this trend to refuse vaccinations catches on it could be very dangerous.  Life requires that we all assume risks; we cannot eliminate them.  I'd like to see people use logic when evaluating the relative risk of two competing alternatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sergey: Sorry to hear about what happened to your son.</p>
<p>Your story reminds me that the son of some very good friends of my parents almost died from the smallpox vaccination he got as a baby.  He was exempt from having another, even though in those years it was required.</p>
<p>My point is not that complications of vaccines never happen.  They do.  The point is that vaccines are necessary to keep the diseases from spreading the way they used to, which would be far worse.  And yes indeed, it doesn&#8217;t require 100% immunization to do this.  But if measles could get going in a place like San Diego, with its extremely high rate of immunization, it doesn&#8217;t take much to realize that if this trend to refuse vaccinations catches on it could be very dangerous.  Life requires that we all assume risks; we cannot eliminate them.  I&#8217;d like to see people use logic when evaluating the relative risk of two competing alternatives.</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61702</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 05:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61702</guid>
					<description>After reading _The Dragons of Eden_ I agree with Walker Percy:  Carl Sagan was an unfortunately undereducated person--so much so that when he praised Newton as liberating thought from religious superstition, he didn't realize he was praising the world view of the medieval church.  Sagan desperately wanted to wear the mantle of Jacob Bronowski, the true renaissance scientist, a role for which he was not suited--whether by intelligence or lack of education I leave to others to determine.

Magic, and the supernatural generally, is the consequence of not knowing the medium through which effects are caused, and none of us are immune.  Anyone who cannot burn or discard all those unwanted photos of relatives in the attic is to some degree a mystic.  While it is satisfying to be smugly scientific and empirical in a social arena where so many live in "The demon-haunted world,” the difference between us and them is not so great.  You could be a top notch internist graduated from the top medical school in this country and yet believe that demons and devils caused all human ailments.  Got a bad case of appendicitis?  That's Azazel's doing.  He likes to attack humans there.  A relatively minor surgery and some antibiotics for the bad bugs Azazel deals in will have you feeling like new.  What?  The surgeon didn't see Azazel in your appendix?  What an idiot!  Azazel is a spirit; you don't see spirits, you see their effects.  Science is a method, and will carry amost any belief piggyback.  Ultimately, the sole basis science has for rejecting spiritualism is that, like weeds and trash, it is misplaced matter relative to the objectives of science.  I think that is an excellect reason for an empiricist to reject spiritualism.  It is a grossly inadquate basis for Saganesque aggrandizement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading _The Dragons of Eden_ I agree with Walker Percy:  Carl Sagan was an unfortunately undereducated person&#8211;so much so that when he praised Newton as liberating thought from religious superstition, he didn&#8217;t realize he was praising the world view of the medieval church.  Sagan desperately wanted to wear the mantle of Jacob Bronowski, the true renaissance scientist, a role for which he was not suited&#8211;whether by intelligence or lack of education I leave to others to determine.</p>
<p>Magic, and the supernatural generally, is the consequence of not knowing the medium through which effects are caused, and none of us are immune.  Anyone who cannot burn or discard all those unwanted photos of relatives in the attic is to some degree a mystic.  While it is satisfying to be smugly scientific and empirical in a social arena where so many live in &#8220;The demon-haunted world,” the difference between us and them is not so great.  You could be a top notch internist graduated from the top medical school in this country and yet believe that demons and devils caused all human ailments.  Got a bad case of appendicitis?  That&#8217;s Azazel&#8217;s doing.  He likes to attack humans there.  A relatively minor surgery and some antibiotics for the bad bugs Azazel deals in will have you feeling like new.  What?  The surgeon didn&#8217;t see Azazel in your appendix?  What an idiot!  Azazel is a spirit; you don&#8217;t see spirits, you see their effects.  Science is a method, and will carry amost any belief piggyback.  Ultimately, the sole basis science has for rejecting spiritualism is that, like weeds and trash, it is misplaced matter relative to the objectives of science.  I think that is an excellect reason for an empiricist to reject spiritualism.  It is a grossly inadquate basis for Saganesque aggrandizement.</p>
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		<title>By: david</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61705</link>
		<author>david</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 06:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61705</guid>
					<description>Wow. Excellent defense of Science of Reason. Thank you. I hope that at least some people have the veil lifted from their eyes upon reading this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. Excellent defense of Science of Reason. Thank you. I hope that at least some people have the veil lifted from their eyes upon reading this.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61742</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61742</guid>
					<description>Polio and smallpox were the most urgent and successful cases of vaccination, but they were also plagued with serious complications. In both cases a live, attenuated virus was used, which usually do not cause a disease but gives you immunity. These small round scars on forearms of all persons older 40 are lesions where virus was reproduced. But in certain fraction of vaccinated it reproduced also at cerebral membranes, leaving here leisions, or even in cerebral tissue as well. These complications are potentially fatal and almost always incure some neurological damage.
I have seen on TV a story from early days of polio vaccination. In some batch of a polio vaccine in USA the vaccine strain used has reverted to virulent form, and instead of immunity gave infantile paralysis. There were handred of cases before alarm started. 
In nowdays bioethics an informed consent to any medical intervention is required. But how can we be informed? Even for me, a mathematician with some expertise in epidemiology (I was a scientific editor of the Russian translation of Anderson and May monograph "Infectious diseases: Prevention and Control" - the official publication of World Health Organization, which embodies its policy) it is hard to make robust cost-risk-benefit analysis. It is impossible to do from anecdotic evidence, and comprehensive statistics in most cases is not available. 
There is a small dirty secret which medical professionals would not let you know: It is not in the best interest of your child to be vaccinated, when coverage is already high enough. This is in interest of somebody else, to keep coverage adequate, that is, high coverage is a common good. Would you risk your child health for common good - and at what risk treshhold? How to introduce moral considerations in risk assessment calculus? I have no solution to this dilemma. I simply refused to vaccinate all our next children, four of them, because smallpox and polio are now eradicated, and all other infections are not so hazardous, being effectively treated by antibiotics, antiviral drugs and anatoxins, applied only if disease actually present and seems serious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Polio and smallpox were the most urgent and successful cases of vaccination, but they were also plagued with serious complications. In both cases a live, attenuated virus was used, which usually do not cause a disease but gives you immunity. These small round scars on forearms of all persons older 40 are lesions where virus was reproduced. But in certain fraction of vaccinated it reproduced also at cerebral membranes, leaving here leisions, or even in cerebral tissue as well. These complications are potentially fatal and almost always incure some neurological damage.<br />
I have seen on TV a story from early days of polio vaccination. In some batch of a polio vaccine in USA the vaccine strain used has reverted to virulent form, and instead of immunity gave infantile paralysis. There were handred of cases before alarm started.<br />
In nowdays bioethics an informed consent to any medical intervention is required. But how can we be informed? Even for me, a mathematician with some expertise in epidemiology (I was a scientific editor of the Russian translation of Anderson and May monograph &#8220;Infectious diseases: Prevention and Control&#8221; - the official publication of World Health Organization, which embodies its policy) it is hard to make robust cost-risk-benefit analysis. It is impossible to do from anecdotic evidence, and comprehensive statistics in most cases is not available.<br />
There is a small dirty secret which medical professionals would not let you know: It is not in the best interest of your child to be vaccinated, when coverage is already high enough. This is in interest of somebody else, to keep coverage adequate, that is, high coverage is a common good. Would you risk your child health for common good - and at what risk treshhold? How to introduce moral considerations in risk assessment calculus? I have no solution to this dilemma. I simply refused to vaccinate all our next children, four of them, because smallpox and polio are now eradicated, and all other infections are not so hazardous, being effectively treated by antibiotics, antiviral drugs and anatoxins, applied only if disease actually present and seems serious.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs Whatsit</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61745</link>
		<author>Mrs Whatsit</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61745</guid>
					<description>Besides mumps, measles, and chickenpox, the other childhood illness that everyone once got was what we used to call "German measles," or rubella -- the "R" in the MMR vaccine. It is usually mild, so much so that you might not even know you had it. But it is very contagious, and if a pregnant woman contracts it, the consequences for her unborn child can be catastrophic. The symptoms of congenital rubella syndrome include deafness, blindness, mental retardation, congenital heart disease, bone disease, and much more -- often all at once. 

In the mid-60s, after a rubella epidemic, tens of thousands of kids were born in one year with CRS. One of my first jobs after college was working at a boarding school for the blind, in a classroom of kids with CRS. They were all eleven or twelve. (If any of them are still surviving now, they're in their mid-60s.) 

All of the kids in that class were profoundly retarded and unable to hear or see. All were completely non-verbal. None were toilet-trained. Their capacities were so devastated that our classroom goals were limited to trying to teach them the simplest skills of daily living like putting on their socks or washing their hands, one tiny step at a time. It could take an entire school year for one of those kids to master the step, say, of turning a faucet. 

Worse, they were so deeply frustrated or lonely or neurologically damaged -- I don't know which -- that they were sad and angry all day long, all the time. Most of them were emotionally unreachable. You might calm one of them down with a hug, and for a moment or two she'd relax in your arms. But in another minute, she wouldn't know any more who you were or remember the encounter. Some went home on weekends, but most never saw their families. The caretakers tried to love them, but in most cases couldn't.

One of them, Ross (a made-up name) would launch himself at anyone near him at random intervals every day, hitting, biting, kicking. This was hard enough to deal with in a little boy, but he was hitting puberty, getting muscles, and growing. Another, Vera (also made up) had little psychomotor seizures every few minutes all day long that led her to scratch and bite herself, drawing blood if you didn't stop her quickly enough. She had diabetes in addition to her other disabilities, so the dozens of little wounds always all over her arms were slow to heal and quick to get infected.    

New cases of CRS have been effectively eradicated in the US by the MMR vaccine. Google tells me that  there have been something like 4 cases in the past five years, only one in a baby whose mother was born in this country. When I hear some young parent now, pontificating about how she's protecting her child by avoiding vaccines, or how "Big Pharm" just wants to make money by selling vaccines without regard to the side effects, I wish I could make her watch the memories of those kids that play in my head. Vaccines are the reason that oblivious young mother has never seen a child with such a condition. Ironically, vaccines are the reason that she can't understand the value of vaccines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Besides mumps, measles, and chickenpox, the other childhood illness that everyone once got was what we used to call &#8220;German measles,&#8221; or rubella &#8212; the &#8220;R&#8221; in the MMR vaccine. It is usually mild, so much so that you might not even know you had it. But it is very contagious, and if a pregnant woman contracts it, the consequences for her unborn child can be catastrophic. The symptoms of congenital rubella syndrome include deafness, blindness, mental retardation, congenital heart disease, bone disease, and much more &#8212; often all at once. </p>
<p>In the mid-60s, after a rubella epidemic, tens of thousands of kids were born in one year with CRS. One of my first jobs after college was working at a boarding school for the blind, in a classroom of kids with CRS. They were all eleven or twelve. (If any of them are still surviving now, they&#8217;re in their mid-60s.) </p>
<p>All of the kids in that class were profoundly retarded and unable to hear or see. All were completely non-verbal. None were toilet-trained. Their capacities were so devastated that our classroom goals were limited to trying to teach them the simplest skills of daily living like putting on their socks or washing their hands, one tiny step at a time. It could take an entire school year for one of those kids to master the step, say, of turning a faucet. </p>
<p>Worse, they were so deeply frustrated or lonely or neurologically damaged &#8212; I don&#8217;t know which &#8212; that they were sad and angry all day long, all the time. Most of them were emotionally unreachable. You might calm one of them down with a hug, and for a moment or two she&#8217;d relax in your arms. But in another minute, she wouldn&#8217;t know any more who you were or remember the encounter. Some went home on weekends, but most never saw their families. The caretakers tried to love them, but in most cases couldn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>One of them, Ross (a made-up name) would launch himself at anyone near him at random intervals every day, hitting, biting, kicking. This was hard enough to deal with in a little boy, but he was hitting puberty, getting muscles, and growing. Another, Vera (also made up) had little psychomotor seizures every few minutes all day long that led her to scratch and bite herself, drawing blood if you didn&#8217;t stop her quickly enough. She had diabetes in addition to her other disabilities, so the dozens of little wounds always all over her arms were slow to heal and quick to get infected.    </p>
<p>New cases of CRS have been effectively eradicated in the US by the MMR vaccine. Google tells me that  there have been something like 4 cases in the past five years, only one in a baby whose mother was born in this country. When I hear some young parent now, pontificating about how she&#8217;s protecting her child by avoiding vaccines, or how &#8220;Big Pharm&#8221; just wants to make money by selling vaccines without regard to the side effects, I wish I could make her watch the memories of those kids that play in my head. Vaccines are the reason that oblivious young mother has never seen a child with such a condition. Ironically, vaccines are the reason that she can&#8217;t understand the value of vaccines.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61748</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61748</guid>
					<description>In Britan they accepted the policy to vaccinate against rubella only girls in age from 12 to 16, and only if they have not already reported to have this disease in their anamnesis; in this age group occurence of autoimmune complications is much less than in earlier age group. That seems reasonable for me, because for boys this infection has no serious consequencies. Congenital fetus brain damage from rubella can occur only if it strike during the first trimester of pregnancy, and alternative measure would be avoid any contacts with small children in this period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Britan they accepted the policy to vaccinate against rubella only girls in age from 12 to 16, and only if they have not already reported to have this disease in their anamnesis; in this age group occurence of autoimmune complications is much less than in earlier age group. That seems reasonable for me, because for boys this infection has no serious consequencies. Congenital fetus brain damage from rubella can occur only if it strike during the first trimester of pregnancy, and alternative measure would be avoid any contacts with small children in this period.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61752</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61752</guid>
					<description>In early 1970 I worked as a laborant in Moscow Gamaleya Institute of Epidemiology and Microbiology, the leading Russian research center in immunology and vaccines development. The official line was that vaccines are neccessary and safe, all propaganda machine asserted this, but we, who actually developed them, knew better. There was a panic when it became known that our anti-measles vaccine inflicts autoimmune brain damage, and our senior immunologist, prof. Svet-Moldavsky, was sent to investigate. The vaccine was produced by inoculation of young rats with virus, whose brain tissue was then harvested for vaccine production. It turned out that in producing laboratory they used overgrown rats, in violation of protocol demanding using very young rats only. This was the source of the problem. All such incidents were kept secret, in a fear that information leaks can result in general panic and mass refusal from vaccination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In early 1970 I worked as a laborant in Moscow Gamaleya Institute of Epidemiology and Microbiology, the leading Russian research center in immunology and vaccines development. The official line was that vaccines are neccessary and safe, all propaganda machine asserted this, but we, who actually developed them, knew better. There was a panic when it became known that our anti-measles vaccine inflicts autoimmune brain damage, and our senior immunologist, prof. Svet-Moldavsky, was sent to investigate. The vaccine was produced by inoculation of young rats with virus, whose brain tissue was then harvested for vaccine production. It turned out that in producing laboratory they used overgrown rats, in violation of protocol demanding using very young rats only. This was the source of the problem. All such incidents were kept secret, in a fear that information leaks can result in general panic and mass refusal from vaccination.</p>
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		<title>By: Vince P</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61754</link>
		<author>Vince P</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61754</guid>
					<description>I would love to know what happened to SARS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would love to know what happened to SARS.</p>
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		<title>By: Hellen Harvey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61756</link>
		<author>Hellen Harvey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 13:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61756</guid>
					<description>If the opinions on your blog represents what neocons are really like - you are sadder than I thought. What a deluded, souless group you are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the opinions on your blog represents what neocons are really like - you are sadder than I thought. What a deluded, souless group you are.</p>
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		<title>By: Cappy</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61757</link>
		<author>Cappy</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 13:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61757</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt; I was one of the first children to get the Salk vaccine, bravely offering up my arm and closing my eyes. &lt;/i&gt;

Not me!  I swear, my doctor dulled those needles!  It scared the cr*p out of me!  I can still remember the relief when the Sabin Oral Vaccine came out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> I was one of the first children to get the Salk vaccine, bravely offering up my arm and closing my eyes. </i></p>
<p>Not me!  I swear, my doctor dulled those needles!  It scared the cr*p out of me!  I can still remember the relief when the Sabin Oral Vaccine came out.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61759</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61759</guid>
					<description>I have three university educations: in mathematics, in biology and linguistics, and PhD in math. ecology and genetics, but these rants about how science has replaced spiritualism looks for me very childish and obsolete. Science by definition can not use supernatural causation in its discourse, but this in no way can exclude its reality; science simply has nothing to say on this matter.
Undereducated persons naively believe that natural causation is enough to account for every event and development in universe. This is called mechanical determinism, a 18-century philosophy, completely undermined by quantum mechanics and nonlinear dynamics revolutions. But understanding these concepts requires advanced mathematical training. So anti-supernaturalism actually is outmoded superstition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have three university educations: in mathematics, in biology and linguistics, and PhD in math. ecology and genetics, but these rants about how science has replaced spiritualism looks for me very childish and obsolete. Science by definition can not use supernatural causation in its discourse, but this in no way can exclude its reality; science simply has nothing to say on this matter.<br />
Undereducated persons naively believe that natural causation is enough to account for every event and development in universe. This is called mechanical determinism, a 18-century philosophy, completely undermined by quantum mechanics and nonlinear dynamics revolutions. But understanding these concepts requires advanced mathematical training. So anti-supernaturalism actually is outmoded superstition.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61761</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61761</guid>
					<description>What scientific revolution of 20 century really achieved is that it liberated us from both atheism and theology dictatorships. Now rational, skeptical, well-educated and critically thinking person can with clear conscience embrace any spiritual doctrine at his wish (atheism included). Realm of spiritual is now what it should be: a realm of freedom. What a pity that most of the public is completely unaware of this great liberation, and its very foundations can not be explained to undereducated folks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What scientific revolution of 20 century really achieved is that it liberated us from both atheism and theology dictatorships. Now rational, skeptical, well-educated and critically thinking person can with clear conscience embrace any spiritual doctrine at his wish (atheism included). Realm of spiritual is now what it should be: a realm of freedom. What a pity that most of the public is completely unaware of this great liberation, and its very foundations can not be explained to undereducated folks.</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61762</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61762</guid>
					<description>Polio, measles and other infectious diseases are bad.  Autism is bad too---I speak from experience.  It's also becoming an epidemic, just as much as polio. back in the 50's.  

It might help if science, assisted by reason, would actually try tackling autism, the way it did polio and smallpox; hunting for a cure and trying to find out why we have so much of it now, instead of telling parents---and their autistic kids---that they will just have to learn to cope somehow, there's nothing we can do, nup, nup, nup, but there are so many wonderful social programs out there to help you (no there aren't), and we think it might be genetic---um, no, it might be environmental---er, uh, maybe it is those vaccines!  Or misalignment of the spine.  Or evil spirits.  Hey, we've just narrowed it down to 50 chromosomes that might have something to do with it!  Isn't that great?  Maybe in another few decades, we'll figure out what's actually going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Polio, measles and other infectious diseases are bad.  Autism is bad too&#8212;I speak from experience.  It&#8217;s also becoming an epidemic, just as much as polio. back in the 50&#8217;s.  </p>
<p>It might help if science, assisted by reason, would actually try tackling autism, the way it did polio and smallpox; hunting for a cure and trying to find out why we have so much of it now, instead of telling parents&#8212;and their autistic kids&#8212;that they will just have to learn to cope somehow, there&#8217;s nothing we can do, nup, nup, nup, but there are so many wonderful social programs out there to help you (no there aren&#8217;t), and we think it might be genetic&#8212;um, no, it might be environmental&#8212;er, uh, maybe it is those vaccines!  Or misalignment of the spine.  Or evil spirits.  Hey, we&#8217;ve just narrowed it down to 50 chromosomes that might have something to do with it!  Isn&#8217;t that great?  Maybe in another few decades, we&#8217;ll figure out what&#8217;s actually going on.</p>
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		<title>By: Vince P</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61763</link>
		<author>Vince P</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61763</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Hellen Harvey Says: 

March 22nd, 2008 at 8:37 am 
If the opinions on your blog represents what neocons are really like - you are sadder than I thought. What a deluded, souless group you are.
&lt;/i&gt;

Hellen: Since you made a comment here, you are now a neo-con.  

So are you saying you're self-deluded?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Hellen Harvey Says: </p>
<p>March 22nd, 2008 at 8:37 am<br />
If the opinions on your blog represents what neocons are really like - you are sadder than I thought. What a deluded, souless group you are.<br />
</i></p>
<p>Hellen: Since you made a comment here, you are now a neo-con.  </p>
<p>So are you saying you&#8217;re self-deluded?</p>
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		<title>By: Vince P</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61764</link>
		<author>Vince P</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61764</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt; Sergey said: I have three university educations: in mathematics, in biology and linguistics, and PhD in math. ecology and genetics&lt;/i&gt;

Um but according to Hellen you're a neocon which means that you are souless and deluded.

Clearly Hellen knows more about the biochemical implications of pathogens in the context of former liberals changing thier political persusion and how that influences the prescene of an eternal spirit dwelling in one's mind.

Why should anyone listen to you Sergey?

/s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Sergey said: I have three university educations: in mathematics, in biology and linguistics, and PhD in math. ecology and genetics</i></p>
<p>Um but according to Hellen you&#8217;re a neocon which means that you are souless and deluded.</p>
<p>Clearly Hellen knows more about the biochemical implications of pathogens in the context of former liberals changing thier political persusion and how that influences the prescene of an eternal spirit dwelling in one&#8217;s mind.</p>
<p>Why should anyone listen to you Sergey?</p>
<p>/s</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61765</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61765</guid>
					<description>A child lost to autism is just as lost as the boy in Jonson's poem---or one lost to polio, or some infectious disease.  Yes, they're still alive, but you're always haunted by the person they could have grown up to become---and now, never will.  And by the fact that they'll always have to be dependent, taken care of by others after you die.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A child lost to autism is just as lost as the boy in Jonson&#8217;s poem&#8212;or one lost to polio, or some infectious disease.  Yes, they&#8217;re still alive, but you&#8217;re always haunted by the person they could have grown up to become&#8212;and now, never will.  And by the fact that they&#8217;ll always have to be dependent, taken care of by others after you die.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Bensky</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61767</link>
		<author>Alex Bensky</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61767</guid>
					<description>de Kruif also wrote _Hunger Fighters,_, which I recall as being pretty good, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>de Kruif also wrote _Hunger Fighters,_, which I recall as being pretty good, too.</p>
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		<title>By: neo-neocon</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61770</link>
		<author>neo-neocon</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61770</guid>
					<description>sergey:  Those are questions I plan to take up in Part II, if I ever manage to get around to it.  One huge issue is how to evaluate relative risk/benefit: personal vs. societal.  Obviously, if everyone did as these parents do, then the pendulum would swing back to these diseases being endemic, which would be a higher risk than any problem arising from vaccinations today.  But where is the break-even point?  What is the real risk of vaccination right now?  Obviously it's small, but how small?  Is it worth risking the return of such diseases by non-vaccination, and at what point does that risk become far greater than the risk of vaccination (these parents in San Diego were probably very surprised that their children actually got measles at this point)?   

In addition, even many educated people (not yourself!) have become, unfortunately, almost unable to evaluate scientific data.  I see this time and again---anecdotal evidence of things happening in succession becomes equal to causation, for example.  If event A follows event B, many many people believe that proves causation.  Science is not the answer to everything, for sure, nor is it perfect.  But a good grounding in scientific method is extremely important for the population to have.    </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sergey:  Those are questions I plan to take up in Part II, if I ever manage to get around to it.  One huge issue is how to evaluate relative risk/benefit: personal vs. societal.  Obviously, if everyone did as these parents do, then the pendulum would swing back to these diseases being endemic, which would be a higher risk than any problem arising from vaccinations today.  But where is the break-even point?  What is the real risk of vaccination right now?  Obviously it&#8217;s small, but how small?  Is it worth risking the return of such diseases by non-vaccination, and at what point does that risk become far greater than the risk of vaccination (these parents in San Diego were probably very surprised that their children actually got measles at this point)?   </p>
<p>In addition, even many educated people (not yourself!) have become, unfortunately, almost unable to evaluate scientific data.  I see this time and again&#8212;anecdotal evidence of things happening in succession becomes equal to causation, for example.  If event A follows event B, many many people believe that proves causation.  Science is not the answer to everything, for sure, nor is it perfect.  But a good grounding in scientific method is extremely important for the population to have.</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61774</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61774</guid>
					<description>Sergey wrote:  "Undereducated persons naively believe that natural causation is enough to account for every event and development in universe."  Yes, the materialism of Newtonian physics is the boundary of the popular imagination.   I wonder what will happen in the popular mind to notions of cause and effect when the implication of anti-matter are understood</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergey wrote:  &#8220;Undereducated persons naively believe that natural causation is enough to account for every event and development in universe.&#8221;  Yes, the materialism of Newtonian physics is the boundary of the popular imagination.   I wonder what will happen in the popular mind to notions of cause and effect when the implication of anti-matter are understood</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61776</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61776</guid>
					<description>Shortly after the Salk vaccination program was swung into action, the American Public Health Service (June 23, 1955) Announced that there had been "168 confirmed cases of poliomyelitis among the vaccinated, with six deaths……How many vaccinated children will eventually be reported as developing the disease is as yet unknown . .

"The interval between inoculation and the first sign of paralysis ranged from 5 to 20 days and in a large proportion of cases it started in the limb on which the injection had been given. Another feature of the tragedy was that the numbers developing polio were far greater than would have been expected had no inoculations been given. In fact in the state of Idaho, according to a statement by Dr. Carl Eklund, one of the Government’s chief virus authorities, polio struck only vaccinated children in areas where there had been no cases of polio since the preceding autumn; in 9 out of 10 cases the paralysis occurred in the arms in which the vaccine had been injected." (News Chronicle, May 6, 1955)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shortly after the Salk vaccination program was swung into action, the American Public Health Service (June 23, 1955) Announced that there had been &#8220;168 confirmed cases of poliomyelitis among the vaccinated, with six deaths……How many vaccinated children will eventually be reported as developing the disease is as yet unknown . .</p>
<p>&#8220;The interval between inoculation and the first sign of paralysis ranged from 5 to 20 days and in a large proportion of cases it started in the limb on which the injection had been given. Another feature of the tragedy was that the numbers developing polio were far greater than would have been expected had no inoculations been given. In fact in the state of Idaho, according to a statement by Dr. Carl Eklund, one of the Government’s chief virus authorities, polio struck only vaccinated children in areas where there had been no cases of polio since the preceding autumn; in 9 out of 10 cases the paralysis occurred in the arms in which the vaccine had been injected.&#8221; (News Chronicle, May 6, 1955)</p>
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		<title>By: neo-neocon</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61781</link>
		<author>neo-neocon</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 18:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61781</guid>
					<description>sergey: I remember that incident well.  A good friend of mine received one of these tainted inoculations.  

As I said, there are always risks involved.  And the risks in the early days of the development of a vaccine (or a drug, for that matter) are greater.  My point is that many people exaggerate or misunderstand these risks, and underestimate the risks of the diseases involved, precisely because of the enormous success of the inoculation programs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sergey: I remember that incident well.  A good friend of mine received one of these tainted inoculations.  </p>
<p>As I said, there are always risks involved.  And the risks in the early days of the development of a vaccine (or a drug, for that matter) are greater.  My point is that many people exaggerate or misunderstand these risks, and underestimate the risks of the diseases involved, precisely because of the enormous success of the inoculation programs.</p>
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		<title>By: FredHjr</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61785</link>
		<author>FredHjr</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 18:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61785</guid>
					<description>Within the popular imagination of our times there seems to be an unfortunate tendency to confuse correlation with causation.  I'm sure Sergey and neo-neocon will agree with me on this.  The implications for this kind of ignorance is far-ranging, and is most exemplified in the "global warming" controversy.

Sergey, your contribution to this discussion is much appreciated.  Always a pleasure to read your posts.  I also appreciate your comments directed at those who blithely disparage the role of the spiritual in people's lives.  I happen to think that we are on the last legs of a long period whereby many people have been anchoring their lives to various kinds of what are called "reductionisms."  The most widespread of these is called physicalist reductionism.

One can be a person of both faith and reason.  The importance of that cannot be overstated.  Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI, a couple of years ago at Regensburg, put the issue of faith and reason back on the front burner when he was commenting on a 13th century Greek's thoughts about Islam.

Science and faith need not be mutually antagonistic.  The reconciliation of these is actually well underway, although in the popular consciousness most people are still stuck in the 19th century or early 20th century mentality.  Academic/educational institutions still encourage and inculcate the older consciousness, but those on the cutting edge know that it's dead as a doornail.  It only continues to kick back in certain vituperative rants that still have not incorporated what's been happening in physics and astrophysics.

I strongly support the programs we have had to administer the inoculations that head off a host of childhood diseases.  At the same time, I have read some recent articles from inside the medical community that give some pause about a more complex relationship between genetics, diet, AND certain chemicals in the injection serums.  We are not talking about causality here; the phenomenon simply cannot admit of it and defies such an easy reductionism (there, I've used that word again!).  The fact is that there has been an alarmingly high incidence of autism going on for some years now.  One out of 160 kids developing some form of it, ranging from the most severe location on the spectrum on up to the most mild forms of Asperger's is not an insignificant thing.

Sorry, Sergey, to hear about what happened to your son.  I know it's hard to convey empathy across keystrokes, but certainly respect can be communicated in this way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Within the popular imagination of our times there seems to be an unfortunate tendency to confuse correlation with causation.  I&#8217;m sure Sergey and neo-neocon will agree with me on this.  The implications for this kind of ignorance is far-ranging, and is most exemplified in the &#8220;global warming&#8221; controversy.</p>
<p>Sergey, your contribution to this discussion is much appreciated.  Always a pleasure to read your posts.  I also appreciate your comments directed at those who blithely disparage the role of the spiritual in people&#8217;s lives.  I happen to think that we are on the last legs of a long period whereby many people have been anchoring their lives to various kinds of what are called &#8220;reductionisms.&#8221;  The most widespread of these is called physicalist reductionism.</p>
<p>One can be a person of both faith and reason.  The importance of that cannot be overstated.  Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI, a couple of years ago at Regensburg, put the issue of faith and reason back on the front burner when he was commenting on a 13th century Greek&#8217;s thoughts about Islam.</p>
<p>Science and faith need not be mutually antagonistic.  The reconciliation of these is actually well underway, although in the popular consciousness most people are still stuck in the 19th century or early 20th century mentality.  Academic/educational institutions still encourage and inculcate the older consciousness, but those on the cutting edge know that it&#8217;s dead as a doornail.  It only continues to kick back in certain vituperative rants that still have not incorporated what&#8217;s been happening in physics and astrophysics.</p>
<p>I strongly support the programs we have had to administer the inoculations that head off a host of childhood diseases.  At the same time, I have read some recent articles from inside the medical community that give some pause about a more complex relationship between genetics, diet, AND certain chemicals in the injection serums.  We are not talking about causality here; the phenomenon simply cannot admit of it and defies such an easy reductionism (there, I&#8217;ve used that word again!).  The fact is that there has been an alarmingly high incidence of autism going on for some years now.  One out of 160 kids developing some form of it, ranging from the most severe location on the spectrum on up to the most mild forms of Asperger&#8217;s is not an insignificant thing.</p>
<p>Sorry, Sergey, to hear about what happened to your son.  I know it&#8217;s hard to convey empathy across keystrokes, but certainly respect can be communicated in this way.</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61804</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61804</guid>
					<description>In my reading, Sergey's posts are less about being opposed to inoculation programs, and more about full disclosure as to both the risks and the fact that at a certain point of population saturation, getting an inoculation is taking a risk pro bono.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my reading, Sergey&#8217;s posts are less about being opposed to inoculation programs, and more about full disclosure as to both the risks and the fact that at a certain point of population saturation, getting an inoculation is taking a risk pro bono.</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61812</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 22:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61812</guid>
					<description>One cam imagine how infuriated, hopeless and eager to grasp at straws, any straws, the parents of children stricken with polio would have felt if, instead of scientists working to find a cure, they'd been told, "Polio is a veeeeery mysterious disease, with a broad spectrum.  We don't know a damn thing about it, but not to worry!  Here's a social worker to take care of you, and here's a nice iron lung to stick your kid in, and you can always join a support group and why don't you become politically active?  That will help a lot!  We don't know how, but we're sure it will."  

Well, this is exactly what parents of autism are being told all the time.  Yes, some of them are getting frustrated.  Some of them are turning to quacks, or latching on to vaccines to blame, because nobody's telling them a damned thing!  

As I pointed out above, a child lost to autism is just as lost as one crippled by polio, or struck down by influenza.  And, as FredHjr points out, it's an epidemic, and the number is rising---one in every 160  (and I've seen some studies that put it even higher.)  A parent with an autistic child isn't comforted by talk of anti-matter, speculations about what would have happened, or what might happen, or the glories of science, or how proximate causes are always the cause of something, etc., and so forth.  Okay, it's not vaccinations responsible?  (And I, myself, don't think that it is), fine!  Tell us what IS doing it!  Try finding an actual cure, or a way of at least dealing with the problem, other than sending us to support groups and lumbering us with doltish social workers, who talk to us reading off a list of questions, from a mimeographed page!  ("What do you see little autistic Timmy doing in three years?  What are you hopes for him?"  Feel good stuff, none of it actually intended to accomplish anything.  Parents of polio-stricken kids would have rioted, if they'd been treated the way parents of autistic kids are today.)

And while I can understand the fear of forgotten diseases returning, we've got an actual epidemic on our hands right now.  So, if it's not caused by vaccines, find out what is causing it!  We were assured that products from China were perfectly safe; then came the rash of pet food poisonings.  We were assured that our own food supply was safe, healthy and clean, and, more and more, we're hearing about spinach, or beef or some other sort of food being contaminated with some sort of junk, and being withdrawn.  It may not be rational, it may not be scientific, but the public is, I think, losing faith in all those reasonable, scientific voices that keep telling us not to worry, it's alright, everything's fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One cam imagine how infuriated, hopeless and eager to grasp at straws, any straws, the parents of children stricken with polio would have felt if, instead of scientists working to find a cure, they&#8217;d been told, &#8220;Polio is a veeeeery mysterious disease, with a broad spectrum.  We don&#8217;t know a damn thing about it, but not to worry!  Here&#8217;s a social worker to take care of you, and here&#8217;s a nice iron lung to stick your kid in, and you can always join a support group and why don&#8217;t you become politically active?  That will help a lot!  We don&#8217;t know how, but we&#8217;re sure it will.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Well, this is exactly what parents of autism are being told all the time.  Yes, some of them are getting frustrated.  Some of them are turning to quacks, or latching on to vaccines to blame, because nobody&#8217;s telling them a damned thing!  </p>
<p>As I pointed out above, a child lost to autism is just as lost as one crippled by polio, or struck down by influenza.  And, as FredHjr points out, it&#8217;s an epidemic, and the number is rising&#8212;one in every 160  (and I&#8217;ve seen some studies that put it even higher.)  A parent with an autistic child isn&#8217;t comforted by talk of anti-matter, speculations about what would have happened, or what might happen, or the glories of science, or how proximate causes are always the cause of something, etc., and so forth.  Okay, it&#8217;s not vaccinations responsible?  (And I, myself, don&#8217;t think that it is), fine!  Tell us what IS doing it!  Try finding an actual cure, or a way of at least dealing with the problem, other than sending us to support groups and lumbering us with doltish social workers, who talk to us reading off a list of questions, from a mimeographed page!  (&#8221;What do you see little autistic Timmy doing in three years?  What are you hopes for him?&#8221;  Feel good stuff, none of it actually intended to accomplish anything.  Parents of polio-stricken kids would have rioted, if they&#8217;d been treated the way parents of autistic kids are today.)</p>
<p>And while I can understand the fear of forgotten diseases returning, we&#8217;ve got an actual epidemic on our hands right now.  So, if it&#8217;s not caused by vaccines, find out what is causing it!  We were assured that products from China were perfectly safe; then came the rash of pet food poisonings.  We were assured that our own food supply was safe, healthy and clean, and, more and more, we&#8217;re hearing about spinach, or beef or some other sort of food being contaminated with some sort of junk, and being withdrawn.  It may not be rational, it may not be scientific, but the public is, I think, losing faith in all those reasonable, scientific voices that keep telling us not to worry, it&#8217;s alright, everything&#8217;s fine.</p>
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		<title>By: neo-neocon</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61814</link>
		<author>neo-neocon</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 23:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61814</guid>
					<description>TalkinKamel:  What you're describing is also at least in part the result of advances in science.  Let me explain.  It used to be that all a doctor could do in so many cases was to provide comfort and maybe make a prediction (one that didn't always pan out): this patient will die; that patient will recover.  Cures were few and far between, and usually provided by nature or providence.  As science and medicine and diagnosis and treatment and prevention advanced, people began to believe that medicine could be able to find a cure for almost everything some day.  And then it segued into a belief that medicine &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; be able to find a cure for everything, and soon.  And then it became a belief---in some cases a demand---that medicine &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; be able to find a cure for everything, and now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TalkinKamel:  What you&#8217;re describing is also at least in part the result of advances in science.  Let me explain.  It used to be that all a doctor could do in so many cases was to provide comfort and maybe make a prediction (one that didn&#8217;t always pan out): this patient will die; that patient will recover.  Cures were few and far between, and usually provided by nature or providence.  As science and medicine and diagnosis and treatment and prevention advanced, people began to believe that medicine could be able to find a cure for almost everything some day.  And then it segued into a belief that medicine <i>would</i> be able to find a cure for everything, and soon.  And then it became a belief&#8212;in some cases a demand&#8212;that medicine <i>should</i> be able to find a cure for everything, and now.</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61820</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 00:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61820</guid>
					<description>neo-neocon, I am not convinced that, in this case, science is even looking for a cure for autism, or even to find why it's risen so dramatically in the past few decades.  The whole thing is getting shuffled over to the "helping" industries, i.e., social workers, special ed schools and the like.  Out here in California, it's starting to become grafted onto the whole illegal alien industry; when I asked about a recent support group for autism, I was first asked if I spoke Spanish.  When I went to the meeting, it was mostly about how those on welfare, or getting government benefits, could get more goodies from the state, for any number of disabilities, not just autism.  

If something is going drastically wrong with our children, all the political activism, support groups and government benefits in the world aren't going to help.  If science really can't come up with the answers, and if psychologists remain more interested in tending monied neurotics dribbling on about their sad childhoods then helping the autistic, the retarded, the schizophrenic---the truly mentally ill---then people are going to look for answers where they can.  It's not rational, it's not scientific, but this is an epidemic; this is a good chunk of a generation that will never live a full life, and may always be dependent, because the medical industry can't be bothered to do anything about it.  There's an obscene amount of money and energy expended on the plastic surgery industry, yet when it comes to autism, and the mysteries of the human mind, it's suddenly, "well, science really can't everything!"  Neo, I love your writing, but, I'm sorry, that's a load of. . . stuff!  The medical industry is continually coming up with ways to inject garbage like botox into aging flesh, and new plastic surgery techniques; I live in a world where nothing can be done to help my autistic son, but, if I wanted, I could get a humongous pair 40-D breasts (if I wanted such an idiotic thing.)

If the medical industry really is turning its back on those most in need, it should just admit it, stop pretending it can do anything to help, and let us find our own answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neo-neocon, I am not convinced that, in this case, science is even looking for a cure for autism, or even to find why it&#8217;s risen so dramatically in the past few decades.  The whole thing is getting shuffled over to the &#8220;helping&#8221; industries, i.e., social workers, special ed schools and the like.  Out here in California, it&#8217;s starting to become grafted onto the whole illegal alien industry; when I asked about a recent support group for autism, I was first asked if I spoke Spanish.  When I went to the meeting, it was mostly about how those on welfare, or getting government benefits, could get more goodies from the state, for any number of disabilities, not just autism.  </p>
<p>If something is going drastically wrong with our children, all the political activism, support groups and government benefits in the world aren&#8217;t going to help.  If science really can&#8217;t come up with the answers, and if psychologists remain more interested in tending monied neurotics dribbling on about their sad childhoods then helping the autistic, the retarded, the schizophrenic&#8212;the truly mentally ill&#8212;then people are going to look for answers where they can.  It&#8217;s not rational, it&#8217;s not scientific, but this is an epidemic; this is a good chunk of a generation that will never live a full life, and may always be dependent, because the medical industry can&#8217;t be bothered to do anything about it.  There&#8217;s an obscene amount of money and energy expended on the plastic surgery industry, yet when it comes to autism, and the mysteries of the human mind, it&#8217;s suddenly, &#8220;well, science really can&#8217;t everything!&#8221;  Neo, I love your writing, but, I&#8217;m sorry, that&#8217;s a load of. . . stuff!  The medical industry is continually coming up with ways to inject garbage like botox into aging flesh, and new plastic surgery techniques; I live in a world where nothing can be done to help my autistic son, but, if I wanted, I could get a humongous pair 40-D breasts (if I wanted such an idiotic thing.)</p>
<p>If the medical industry really is turning its back on those most in need, it should just admit it, stop pretending it can do anything to help, and let us find our own answers.</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61828</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 01:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61828</guid>
					<description>When physicians can't help patients, they send them to counseling to get help accepting that they can't be helped.  It is an old story for lots of diseases/disorders/disabilities science can't deal with.  Should you ever want some company for your misery, google RSD or Complex Regional Pain Syndrome.  I reference that disease or whatever it is because a member of my close family has been to hell and back with it--relentless pain 24/7 and short of general anaesthesia, no one  knows how to stop it.

I understand that you think your anguish has nothing to do with the deification of science, but neo-neocon is right:  your high expectations versus the reality of medical science clash in almost every sentence you write.  Sergey is exactly on target with his observation that the deification of science is but the mirror image of superstition.

You have drunk and seen the spider, but were you really better off when you believed?  Rather than transform the God Science into its mirror image Devil, why not accept it as simply another human enterprise, some times glorious, heroic and triumphant, some times mundane, cowardly, and failed.

As someone who has also run the medical gamut of hope and despair, I wish you and your son all the best.  I should probably stop there, but let me suggest that neither "medical science" nor "the medical industry" is monolithic.  They are abstracts, convenient fictions.  It does not help your son, and ultimately harms you, to hate a fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When physicians can&#8217;t help patients, they send them to counseling to get help accepting that they can&#8217;t be helped.  It is an old story for lots of diseases/disorders/disabilities science can&#8217;t deal with.  Should you ever want some company for your misery, google RSD or Complex Regional Pain Syndrome.  I reference that disease or whatever it is because a member of my close family has been to hell and back with it&#8211;relentless pain 24/7 and short of general anaesthesia, no one  knows how to stop it.</p>
<p>I understand that you think your anguish has nothing to do with the deification of science, but neo-neocon is right:  your high expectations versus the reality of medical science clash in almost every sentence you write.  Sergey is exactly on target with his observation that the deification of science is but the mirror image of superstition.</p>
<p>You have drunk and seen the spider, but were you really better off when you believed?  Rather than transform the God Science into its mirror image Devil, why not accept it as simply another human enterprise, some times glorious, heroic and triumphant, some times mundane, cowardly, and failed.</p>
<p>As someone who has also run the medical gamut of hope and despair, I wish you and your son all the best.  I should probably stop there, but let me suggest that neither &#8220;medical science&#8221; nor &#8220;the medical industry&#8221; is monolithic.  They are abstracts, convenient fictions.  It does not help your son, and ultimately harms you, to hate a fiction.</p>
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		<title>By: neo-neocon</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61835</link>
		<author>neo-neocon</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 02:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61835</guid>
					<description>TalkinKamel:  I would love for more to be known about autism.  It's a terrible problem that I first became interested in long ago, back when the going theory of its origins was far more pernicious than anything current today---Bruno Bettelheim and the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother" rel="nofollow"&gt;"refrigerator mother&lt;/a&gt;."  This theory was an example of "blame the parents" of children suffering from a tragic illness the cause of which no one really had a clue about.  

I know many people who work in the field of child pscyhology and they say it is clear that the incidence of autism is on the rise.  But it's not even clear whether that represents an actual increase, or whether it is simply that diagnosis has become better and also broader, with milder cases being more frequently diagnosed.  It is possible there is in fact an actual increase of autism, and it is possible it is an artifact of diagnostic changes.  

The desperation and the suffering of parents of these children are profound.  I am almost certain there isn't a parent of an autistic child who hasn't been treated badly by some helping professional at some point, and perhaps many at many points.  But in general, as with cancer, diabetes, heart disease, AIDS, schizophrenia and other complex medical problems, medicine &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; interested in finding the answers.  It is an unfortunate fact that the answers are often very difficult to come by.

No doubt you're familiar with the controversy about better diagnosis vs. actual increase in autism cases.  If not, however, &lt;a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6947652/" rel="nofollow"&gt;here's&lt;/a&gt; a typical summary article about the issue.

I wish you and your family the best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TalkinKamel:  I would love for more to be known about autism.  It&#8217;s a terrible problem that I first became interested in long ago, back when the going theory of its origins was far more pernicious than anything current today&#8212;Bruno Bettelheim and the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother" rel="nofollow">&#8220;refrigerator mother</a>.&#8221;  This theory was an example of &#8220;blame the parents&#8221; of children suffering from a tragic illness the cause of which no one really had a clue about.  </p>
<p>I know many people who work in the field of child pscyhology and they say it is clear that the incidence of autism is on the rise.  But it&#8217;s not even clear whether that represents an actual increase, or whether it is simply that diagnosis has become better and also broader, with milder cases being more frequently diagnosed.  It is possible there is in fact an actual increase of autism, and it is possible it is an artifact of diagnostic changes.  </p>
<p>The desperation and the suffering of parents of these children are profound.  I am almost certain there isn&#8217;t a parent of an autistic child who hasn&#8217;t been treated badly by some helping professional at some point, and perhaps many at many points.  But in general, as with cancer, diabetes, heart disease, AIDS, schizophrenia and other complex medical problems, medicine <i>is</i> interested in finding the answers.  It is an unfortunate fact that the answers are often very difficult to come by.</p>
<p>No doubt you&#8217;re familiar with the controversy about better diagnosis vs. actual increase in autism cases.  If not, however, <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6947652/" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s</a> a typical summary article about the issue.</p>
<p>I wish you and your family the best.</p>
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		<title>By: nyomythus</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61842</link>
		<author>nyomythus</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 06:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61842</guid>
					<description>Sergey “…how science has replaced spiritualism looks for me very childish and obsolete.”

I for one would push that door open with you. The numinous is innate for the spiritualist or the scientist, the faith-based or the skeptic; nothing has been replaced, it’s our common-ground. The numinous is hard wired in our species, for normal individuals, from the ten of thousands of years of short-lived generations, when we knew next to nothing about the physical world, today we use art, music, discovery, and even prayer to evoke this unique feeling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergey “…how science has replaced spiritualism looks for me very childish and obsolete.”</p>
<p>I for one would push that door open with you. The numinous is innate for the spiritualist or the scientist, the faith-based or the skeptic; nothing has been replaced, it’s our common-ground. The numinous is hard wired in our species, for normal individuals, from the ten of thousands of years of short-lived generations, when we knew next to nothing about the physical world, today we use art, music, discovery, and even prayer to evoke this unique feeling.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61847</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 10:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61847</guid>
					<description>I have a hypothesis about autism epidemic, relating it not with vaccination (for which there is no evidence at all), but with widespread modern pattern of abandonment breast feeding of infants and early termination of a close relationship between mother and child due to expansion of day care centers used by working mothers. Both are ill effects of women emancipation from their primal duties.
Nothing can be more devastating for infant psychical development than dysfunctional mother, and one need not be a therapist or neocon to understand a profound psychologic importance of breast feeding in infancy. This is not about nutrition or even immune system development (while these considerations are also important); this is about early and most crucial stages of emotive formation of personality.
There is a syndrom called hospitalism, which is rampant in orphanages, children hospitals and other institutions where small children are held without maternal care. Even when nutritional, hygienic and other conditions are adequate, children are retarded in their intellectual, physical and especially emotional development. Many symptoms of autism and hospitalism are the same. This is, in my view, is an indication (not proof, but indication) of causal relationship of early emotional deprivation due lack of breast feeding and 24/7 maternal care with autism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a hypothesis about autism epidemic, relating it not with vaccination (for which there is no evidence at all), but with widespread modern pattern of abandonment breast feeding of infants and early termination of a close relationship between mother and child due to expansion of day care centers used by working mothers. Both are ill effects of women emancipation from their primal duties.<br />
Nothing can be more devastating for infant psychical development than dysfunctional mother, and one need not be a therapist or neocon to understand a profound psychologic importance of breast feeding in infancy. This is not about nutrition or even immune system development (while these considerations are also important); this is about early and most crucial stages of emotive formation of personality.<br />
There is a syndrom called hospitalism, which is rampant in orphanages, children hospitals and other institutions where small children are held without maternal care. Even when nutritional, hygienic and other conditions are adequate, children are retarded in their intellectual, physical and especially emotional development. Many symptoms of autism and hospitalism are the same. This is, in my view, is an indication (not proof, but indication) of causal relationship of early emotional deprivation due lack of breast feeding and 24/7 maternal care with autism.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris White</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61850</link>
		<author>Chris White</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61850</guid>
					<description>Such a fascinating post; the divisions revealed are not the usual ones of neo-cons = US = Good versus liberal = THEM = Bad. While some of those who do not vaccinate their children may well be selfish, unthinking, liberal soccer moms doing so for all the wrong reasons, Sergey shows that the issue is far more complex and personal than that. 

What I find most curious from a political standpoint is that the topic shows one of the major big government programs in healthcare in such a positive light. It is pretty easy to see today how effective it was to have government subsidized and directed, (near) universal, inoculation programs for polio, measles, chicken pox, small pox, etc. However great the costs may have been in mid-XX century dollars, the direct savings and indirect benefits pretty obviously add up to show that the overall effort paid off in so many ways, not the least of which are the tens of thousands of healthy productive adults who might well have succumbed to these diseases and been left crippled for life.

Is it then too great a leap to suggest that healthcare may be among those areas where individual consumers operating in a free market is &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; necessarily the better choice for us as a society to make? When there is, as TalkinKamel points out, &lt;i&gt;an obscene amount of money and energy expended on the plastic surgery industry&lt;/i&gt; while research into the surge in autism appears under funded, doesn't it reveal the inherent flaw in viewing health as a commodity and healthcare an industry? Ultimately, as an industry, healthcare must place profits for shareholders above the needs of patients, as all industries have the fiduciary responsibility to do. Whether it is autism or AIDS, are market forces sufficient to induce the needed investment in research and to focus that research on prevention and cures rather than long term treatment options which may well, from a purely business standpoint, have a better return on investment? 

All in all a fascinating post; one that has shown the depth of the pain and frustration so many of those personally affected by serious medical issues face. Like everyone here, let me convey my best wishes and sympathy to all those for whom these are not abstract issues, but are all too personal and painful daily realities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Such a fascinating post; the divisions revealed are not the usual ones of neo-cons = US = Good versus liberal = THEM = Bad. While some of those who do not vaccinate their children may well be selfish, unthinking, liberal soccer moms doing so for all the wrong reasons, Sergey shows that the issue is far more complex and personal than that. </p>
<p>What I find most curious from a political standpoint is that the topic shows one of the major big government programs in healthcare in such a positive light. It is pretty easy to see today how effective it was to have government subsidized and directed, (near) universal, inoculation programs for polio, measles, chicken pox, small pox, etc. However great the costs may have been in mid-XX century dollars, the direct savings and indirect benefits pretty obviously add up to show that the overall effort paid off in so many ways, not the least of which are the tens of thousands of healthy productive adults who might well have succumbed to these diseases and been left crippled for life.</p>
<p>Is it then too great a leap to suggest that healthcare may be among those areas where individual consumers operating in a free market is <b>not</b> necessarily the better choice for us as a society to make? When there is, as TalkinKamel points out, <i>an obscene amount of money and energy expended on the plastic surgery industry</i> while research into the surge in autism appears under funded, doesn&#8217;t it reveal the inherent flaw in viewing health as a commodity and healthcare an industry? Ultimately, as an industry, healthcare must place profits for shareholders above the needs of patients, as all industries have the fiduciary responsibility to do. Whether it is autism or AIDS, are market forces sufficient to induce the needed investment in research and to focus that research on prevention and cures rather than long term treatment options which may well, from a purely business standpoint, have a better return on investment? </p>
<p>All in all a fascinating post; one that has shown the depth of the pain and frustration so many of those personally affected by serious medical issues face. Like everyone here, let me convey my best wishes and sympathy to all those for whom these are not abstract issues, but are all too personal and painful daily realities.</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61865</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61865</guid>
					<description>Sergey, my son was breast feed, neither my husband nor I ever terminated our relationships with him and he never spent a day in a child care center.  Try another, 'kay?  

Before the current autism epidemic---and, yes, I believe it is an actual epidemic---autism was, supposedly, a rare mental disorder, that appeared in children who had been abandoned, or raised in institutional environments, and who had become extremely withdrawn.  Now, it is widespread, and it is happening to children who were loved and wanted, and who'se upbringing was reasonably normal.  The refrigerator momma, bad institution stuff, won't fly any more.  As for breast feeding, here in the US, breast feeding has been encouraged, and a great number of America women at least try to breast feed their kids.  Yet still, autism.  So I don't think that's the answer.  If bottle feeding were the problem, why didn't the boom generation suddenly become autistic?  Because they were mostly bottle fed.  

Yes, I'm aware of the the controversy between diagnosis, and the rise of the disease, and, quite frankly, I think it's sailing down a river called Da-Nile.  It allows would-be researchers to say, "Oh, it's not really so bad, it's just the way they classify it, we're doing so much better at catching autism early these days, la-la-la."  It also allows some parents to deny their kids have real problems.  "There's nothing really wrong, they just put all kids with language problems into this category.  It's not really serious!"

What we seem to have is a growing number of kids who, for whatever reason, have severe communication problems, mimicking classic autism. This is happening all over the world, not just in America, or in places where kids are routinely institutionalized.  You can call it autism, you can call it whatever you like.  But it's a problem.  I don't think it's caused by vaccinations, but the medical profession, in ignoring or brushing off parents of autistic kids, has pretty much left itself open for things like widespread vaccination scares, and paranoia about toxins in the atmosphere.  (Look, I've gone to some of those support groups, and I've heard "experts" there assuring parents that evil vaccinations, and food and diet, are responsible for their kids' problems!  On the one hand, I sympathetize with those who fear the outbreak of diseases, but, on the other hand, the medicos have left themselves wide open for this sort of thing by deciding they can't be bothered with this problem, and dumping it all on the "helping" industries.)

I don't know about the market in general, vis-a-vis healthcare; I am seeing "support" industries for autistic kids blossoming into big business.  I hate the thought that a cure, or at least prevention, might be out there somewhere, but no one's going to try and find it, because it would put too many support workers out of a job, and because vaginoplasty is ever so much more lucrative.  After all, we'll teach you how to ADJUST to your son's condition, won't that be lovely?  And you can always get the state to get you some more money, yeah, right. . . 
  
DuMaurier-smith, your little fairy tale about drinking and seeing the spider makes no sense to me whatsoever. 

I thank all for your good wishes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergey, my son was breast feed, neither my husband nor I ever terminated our relationships with him and he never spent a day in a child care center.  Try another, &#8216;kay?  </p>
<p>Before the current autism epidemic&#8212;and, yes, I believe it is an actual epidemic&#8212;autism was, supposedly, a rare mental disorder, that appeared in children who had been abandoned, or raised in institutional environments, and who had become extremely withdrawn.  Now, it is widespread, and it is happening to children who were loved and wanted, and who&#8217;se upbringing was reasonably normal.  The refrigerator momma, bad institution stuff, won&#8217;t fly any more.  As for breast feeding, here in the US, breast feeding has been encouraged, and a great number of America women at least try to breast feed their kids.  Yet still, autism.  So I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the answer.  If bottle feeding were the problem, why didn&#8217;t the boom generation suddenly become autistic?  Because they were mostly bottle fed.  </p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;m aware of the the controversy between diagnosis, and the rise of the disease, and, quite frankly, I think it&#8217;s sailing down a river called Da-Nile.  It allows would-be researchers to say, &#8220;Oh, it&#8217;s not really so bad, it&#8217;s just the way they classify it, we&#8217;re doing so much better at catching autism early these days, la-la-la.&#8221;  It also allows some parents to deny their kids have real problems.  &#8220;There&#8217;s nothing really wrong, they just put all kids with language problems into this category.  It&#8217;s not really serious!&#8221;</p>
<p>What we seem to have is a growing number of kids who, for whatever reason, have severe communication problems, mimicking classic autism. This is happening all over the world, not just in America, or in places where kids are routinely institutionalized.  You can call it autism, you can call it whatever you like.  But it&#8217;s a problem.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s caused by vaccinations, but the medical profession, in ignoring or brushing off parents of autistic kids, has pretty much left itself open for things like widespread vaccination scares, and paranoia about toxins in the atmosphere.  (Look, I&#8217;ve gone to some of those support groups, and I&#8217;ve heard &#8220;experts&#8221; there assuring parents that evil vaccinations, and food and diet, are responsible for their kids&#8217; problems!  On the one hand, I sympathetize with those who fear the outbreak of diseases, but, on the other hand, the medicos have left themselves wide open for this sort of thing by deciding they can&#8217;t be bothered with this problem, and dumping it all on the &#8220;helping&#8221; industries.)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about the market in general, vis-a-vis healthcare; I am seeing &#8220;support&#8221; industries for autistic kids blossoming into big business.  I hate the thought that a cure, or at least prevention, might be out there somewhere, but no one&#8217;s going to try and find it, because it would put too many support workers out of a job, and because vaginoplasty is ever so much more lucrative.  After all, we&#8217;ll teach you how to ADJUST to your son&#8217;s condition, won&#8217;t that be lovely?  And you can always get the state to get you some more money, yeah, right. . . </p>
<p>DuMaurier-smith, your little fairy tale about drinking and seeing the spider makes no sense to me whatsoever. </p>
<p>I thank all for your good wishes.</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61866</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61866</guid>
					<description>Sergey:  I doubt anaclitic depression is a factor in autism; it is too reversible.  As soon as Spitz's finding received publicity, hospital staff began providing stimulus for the infants, and the situation turned around.  There is some indication that early trauma can lead to depression in later life, so perhaps the infants, contrary to perceptions back then, were not restored to normalcy.

What the anaclitic infants required was not a mother, as such, but sensory stimulation.  Neo-neocon mentions an earlier time when psychopathology was blamed upon parents--who were both mystified and anguished by what they'd done wrong.  The behavior of "schizophrenogenic" parents was scrutinized and causes found--typically materal--impervious, intrusive, double-binding mothers caught most of the blame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergey:  I doubt anaclitic depression is a factor in autism; it is too reversible.  As soon as Spitz&#8217;s finding received publicity, hospital staff began providing stimulus for the infants, and the situation turned around.  There is some indication that early trauma can lead to depression in later life, so perhaps the infants, contrary to perceptions back then, were not restored to normalcy.</p>
<p>What the anaclitic infants required was not a mother, as such, but sensory stimulation.  Neo-neocon mentions an earlier time when psychopathology was blamed upon parents&#8211;who were both mystified and anguished by what they&#8217;d done wrong.  The behavior of &#8220;schizophrenogenic&#8221; parents was scrutinized and causes found&#8211;typically materal&#8211;impervious, intrusive, double-binding mothers caught most of the blame.</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61867</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61867</guid>
					<description>Sorry for the error:  "materal" should be "maternal."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the error:  &#8220;materal&#8221; should be &#8220;maternal.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: nyomythus</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61870</link>
		<author>nyomythus</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61870</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;widespread modern pattern of abandonment breast feeding of infants and early termination of a close relationship between mother and child&lt;/i&gt; excellent  point, needs to be heard more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>widespread modern pattern of abandonment breast feeding of infants and early termination of a close relationship between mother and child</i> excellent  point, needs to be heard more.</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61872</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61872</guid>
					<description>Except that, in America, where breast feeding is pretty widespread, autism is still prevalent, and it occurs even in families where the mother has a close relationship with her child.  

Look, breast feeding is a good thing.  Early termination of the mother and child relationship is a bad thing, but I doubt the lack of one, or the presence of the other, causes autism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except that, in America, where breast feeding is pretty widespread, autism is still prevalent, and it occurs even in families where the mother has a close relationship with her child.  </p>
<p>Look, breast feeding is a good thing.  Early termination of the mother and child relationship is a bad thing, but I doubt the lack of one, or the presence of the other, causes autism.</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61873</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61873</guid>
					<description>DuMaurier-Smith

They've eased off somewhat, but mothers are still expected to shoulder a lot of the responsibility, and still catch a lot of blame, if their children don't immediately turn into perfect, silent angels, under whatever autistic treatment program they're put under.  Some programs ask the mom to spend 4-6 hours a day in floor play with her child (a schedule even a normal child would balk under; and what if she has a job?  What if she has other kids?).  And all mothers of autistic kids are pressured to become "politically active", to involve themselves in their IEP programs (which the schools won't much like, by the way). to become advocates of their kids, to work 24 hours on their behalf.  

Some of this might be necessary, but it puts an awful burden on the mother, and, of course, she is the one blamed when the kid still "acts autistic".  The unspoken expectation seems to be that she, single-handedly, can somehow "fix" the kid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DuMaurier-Smith</p>
<p>They&#8217;ve eased off somewhat, but mothers are still expected to shoulder a lot of the responsibility, and still catch a lot of blame, if their children don&#8217;t immediately turn into perfect, silent angels, under whatever autistic treatment program they&#8217;re put under.  Some programs ask the mom to spend 4-6 hours a day in floor play with her child (a schedule even a normal child would balk under; and what if she has a job?  What if she has other kids?).  And all mothers of autistic kids are pressured to become &#8220;politically active&#8221;, to involve themselves in their IEP programs (which the schools won&#8217;t much like, by the way). to become advocates of their kids, to work 24 hours on their behalf.  </p>
<p>Some of this might be necessary, but it puts an awful burden on the mother, and, of course, she is the one blamed when the kid still &#8220;acts autistic&#8221;.  The unspoken expectation seems to be that she, single-handedly, can somehow &#8220;fix&#8221; the kid.</p>
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		<title>By: benning</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61882</link>
		<author>benning</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61882</guid>
					<description>"Stupidity is its own reward."

Why these supposedly intelligent people refuse to investigate the claims is beyond me. They are condemning their own children to diseases because of unfounded fears. Idiocy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Stupidity is its own reward.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why these supposedly intelligent people refuse to investigate the claims is beyond me. They are condemning their own children to diseases because of unfounded fears. Idiocy!</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61883</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61883</guid>
					<description>TalkinKamel:
And as with schizophrenia, I think autism will be found to be a structural, bio-chemical disorder, rather than an acquired disorder.  When you see such stereotypic behavior, it seems to me very unlikely to be caused by or much affected by parental behavior.

There's a flaw in our system:  we don't have to have done anything wrong to feel guilt; feeling guilt only requires that others act toward us as if we are guilty.  And when those people wear the robes and lab coats, it's hard to fight off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TalkinKamel:<br />
And as with schizophrenia, I think autism will be found to be a structural, bio-chemical disorder, rather than an acquired disorder.  When you see such stereotypic behavior, it seems to me very unlikely to be caused by or much affected by parental behavior.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a flaw in our system:  we don&#8217;t have to have done anything wrong to feel guilt; feeling guilt only requires that others act toward us as if we are guilty.  And when those people wear the robes and lab coats, it&#8217;s hard to fight off.</p>
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		<title>By: neo-neocon</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61885</link>
		<author>neo-neocon</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 17:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61885</guid>
					<description>In the sequel to this post I plan to tackle some of the evidence about autism, TalkinKamel.

But suffice to say here that it was never primarily a disease of institutionalized or abandoned children.  There was no actual evidence that children with autism, even many decades ago, were unloved or unwanted or raised any differently than their normal siblings.  The theories about this were generated by people such as Bettelheim (who, by the way, recommended institution---in his own facility---as treatment) from their own personal anecdotal observations of what they believed they saw in the families of autistic children.  These theories did not hold up under scrutiny.  In those days, blaming the parent was all the rage, and it was done with the flimsiest of excuses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the sequel to this post I plan to tackle some of the evidence about autism, TalkinKamel.</p>
<p>But suffice to say here that it was never primarily a disease of institutionalized or abandoned children.  There was no actual evidence that children with autism, even many decades ago, were unloved or unwanted or raised any differently than their normal siblings.  The theories about this were generated by people such as Bettelheim (who, by the way, recommended institution&#8212;in his own facility&#8212;as treatment) from their own personal anecdotal observations of what they believed they saw in the families of autistic children.  These theories did not hold up under scrutiny.  In those days, blaming the parent was all the rage, and it was done with the flimsiest of excuses.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61891</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61891</guid>
					<description>I know, of course, that hospitalism is completely reversable, even easily reversable, and that its victims are very responsive to attention - of any person attention - and even more responsive than normal children are, while in genuine case of autism you are before a stone wall, which no amount of love and care can bring down. We have to assume that serious psychical disorders, unlike neuroses, are mysterious diseases, and about them science has very little to say. More generally, we know almost nothing about other developmental epidemics, like acceleration, that come like tidal waves and than recede. Developmental biology is still in its infancy due to decades of neglect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know, of course, that hospitalism is completely reversable, even easily reversable, and that its victims are very responsive to attention - of any person attention - and even more responsive than normal children are, while in genuine case of autism you are before a stone wall, which no amount of love and care can bring down. We have to assume that serious psychical disorders, unlike neuroses, are mysterious diseases, and about them science has very little to say. More generally, we know almost nothing about other developmental epidemics, like acceleration, that come like tidal waves and than recede. Developmental biology is still in its infancy due to decades of neglect.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61900</link>
		<author>Sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61900</guid>
					<description>See also http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/569281/another-piece-in-the-jigsaw.thtml
about first in USA court ruling establishing causal relation between vaccination and autism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also <a href="http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/569281/another-piece-in-the-jigsaw.thtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/569281/another-piece-in-the-jigsaw.thtml</a><br />
about first in USA court ruling establishing causal relation between vaccination and autism.</p>
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		<title>By: DuMaurier-Smith</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61903</link>
		<author>DuMaurier-Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61903</guid>
					<description>Sergey:  I've never read of human developmental acceleration qua species or within the species as opposed to within an individual system.  Has such been demonstrated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergey:  I&#8217;ve never read of human developmental acceleration qua species or within the species as opposed to within an individual system.  Has such been demonstrated?</p>
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		<title>By: TalkinKamel</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61905</link>
		<author>TalkinKamel</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61905</guid>
					<description>Sergey, my own son is anything but a "stone wall"---he's very affectionate, very sweet-natured, always smiling, usually cheerful.  It's language, and communicating, he has a problem with.  I'm wondering if some new condition hasn't developed over the past few decades, and is being called "autism" simply because nobody's been interested enough, up till now, to really investigate what's happening, so "autism" seems the most likely thing to call it.   

I look forward to seeing the sequel to this post, Neo, and  many thanks for letting me vent here.  Happy Easter, to you and your family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergey, my own son is anything but a &#8220;stone wall&#8221;&#8212;he&#8217;s very affectionate, very sweet-natured, always smiling, usually cheerful.  It&#8217;s language, and communicating, he has a problem with.  I&#8217;m wondering if some new condition hasn&#8217;t developed over the past few decades, and is being called &#8220;autism&#8221; simply because nobody&#8217;s been interested enough, up till now, to really investigate what&#8217;s happening, so &#8220;autism&#8221; seems the most likely thing to call it.   </p>
<p>I look forward to seeing the sequel to this post, Neo, and  many thanks for letting me vent here.  Happy Easter, to you and your family.</p>
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		<title>By: sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61932</link>
		<author>sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61932</guid>
					<description>See also
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/568226/the-wakefield-witchhunt.thtml
Here is a discussion on a hypothesis of american surgeon Wakefield about possible connection of autism and MMR vaccination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also<br />
<a href="http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/568226/the-wakefield-witchhunt.thtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/568226/the-wakefield-witchhunt.thtml</a><br />
Here is a discussion on a hypothesis of american surgeon Wakefield about possible connection of autism and MMR vaccination.</p>
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		<title>By: sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61933</link>
		<author>sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61933</guid>
					<description>Acceleration was a big story in 1970, when in many developed countries pediatrics specialists reported about shift in onset of puberty in both girls and boys: it began earlier, so period of rapid growth became longer, and height of adolescents became up to 10 cm bigger. Furniture and clothes manufacturers had to change their range of sizes. Only half of population were affected, so in schools it created a problem, when half of class were pre-pubertat, and another half was already in a heat of it and and a head above them. Than this epidemics receded, but nobody can explain the phenomenon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acceleration was a big story in 1970, when in many developed countries pediatrics specialists reported about shift in onset of puberty in both girls and boys: it began earlier, so period of rapid growth became longer, and height of adolescents became up to 10 cm bigger. Furniture and clothes manufacturers had to change their range of sizes. Only half of population were affected, so in schools it created a problem, when half of class were pre-pubertat, and another half was already in a heat of it and and a head above them. Than this epidemics receded, but nobody can explain the phenomenon.</p>
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		<title>By: sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61934</link>
		<author>sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61934</guid>
					<description>See also
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=376203&#38;in_page_id=1774&#38;in_a_source</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also<br />
<a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=376203&amp;in_page_id=1774&amp;in_a_source" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=376203&amp;in_page_id=1774&amp;in_a_source</a></p>
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		<title>By: sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61938</link>
		<author>sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61938</guid>
					<description>Nobody can persuade me that measles vaccine containing live attenuated virus can be safe. I was in epicenter of a debacle with such type of vaccine, when a small, seemingly insignificant modification of protocol for its preparation triggered an epidemic of measles meningitis among vaccinated. This was not some dubious statistical correlation, but a proved diagnosis, established also by autopsy (there were dozens of letal outcomes). This scandal never poured intopress, beyond our Institute, due to Soviet era secrecy, but everybody working there knew the gloomy details.
Of course, I do not know the exact procedure of vaccine production in case of MMR, but I know that it contains live virus, and this is enough for me. From the days of Pasteur attenuated viruses are produced by passage on animal brains (rabbits or rats), they can not be sterilized (this will kill the virus which need to be alive), and can contain all kinds of neurotrophic viruses not known to science or other non-viral infectious agents of prion nature. The main target tissues for all viruses (except embrionic) are small intestine epithelium and brain tissue, so connection between gut problems due vaccine-induced persistent viral infection and brain damage is very plausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody can persuade me that measles vaccine containing live attenuated virus can be safe. I was in epicenter of a debacle with such type of vaccine, when a small, seemingly insignificant modification of protocol for its preparation triggered an epidemic of measles meningitis among vaccinated. This was not some dubious statistical correlation, but a proved diagnosis, established also by autopsy (there were dozens of letal outcomes). This scandal never poured intopress, beyond our Institute, due to Soviet era secrecy, but everybody working there knew the gloomy details.<br />
Of course, I do not know the exact procedure of vaccine production in case of MMR, but I know that it contains live virus, and this is enough for me. From the days of Pasteur attenuated viruses are produced by passage on animal brains (rabbits or rats), they can not be sterilized (this will kill the virus which need to be alive), and can contain all kinds of neurotrophic viruses not known to science or other non-viral infectious agents of prion nature. The main target tissues for all viruses (except embrionic) are small intestine epithelium and brain tissue, so connection between gut problems due vaccine-induced persistent viral infection and brain damage is very plausible.</p>
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		<title>By: sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61941</link>
		<author>sergey</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61941</guid>
					<description>To Talkingcamel: In Russia, autism is defined as a form of children schizophrenia, with emotional detachment and lack of reaction to surrundings as a leading symptom. No form of dyslexia as such without this symptom can not be classified as autism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Talkingcamel: In Russia, autism is defined as a form of children schizophrenia, with emotional detachment and lack of reaction to surrundings as a leading symptom. No form of dyslexia as such without this symptom can not be classified as autism.</p>
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		<title>By: Tatterdemalian</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61986</link>
		<author>Tatterdemalian</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61986</guid>
					<description>The war between science and religion comes down to the fact that, while science can't find all the answers, those answers it does find are certain to within a measurable margin of error. Religion, on the other hand, achieves its strength by comforting people when they are faced with the unknown, and its power wanes with each answer science finds, even when science finds out that the religion was right all along.

Turf wars always get ugly, no matter how high or low or even imaginary the stakes are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The war between science and religion comes down to the fact that, while science can&#8217;t find all the answers, those answers it does find are certain to within a measurable margin of error. Religion, on the other hand, achieves its strength by comforting people when they are faced with the unknown, and its power wanes with each answer science finds, even when science finds out that the religion was right all along.</p>
<p>Turf wars always get ugly, no matter how high or low or even imaginary the stakes are.</p>
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		<title>By: nyomythus</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61987</link>
		<author>nyomythus</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61987</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;and its power wanes with each answer science finds, even when science finds out that the religion was right all along.&lt;/i&gt;

Name me something that religion got right that science empirically validated -- which is what is suggest when one says, "got it right"? Even if it did what how is it moral to rely on faith over science? You can arrive at the root cause of this problem if you can't see how faith is used to attenuate what science produces, not how that product is used, but what it produces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>and its power wanes with each answer science finds, even when science finds out that the religion was right all along.</i></p>
<p>Name me something that religion got right that science empirically validated &#8212; which is what is suggest when one says, &#8220;got it right&#8221;? Even if it did what how is it moral to rely on faith over science? You can arrive at the root cause of this problem if you can&#8217;t see how faith is used to attenuate what science produces, not how that product is used, but what it produces.</p>
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		<title>By: nyomythus</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/03/21/vaccinations-and-the-demon-haunted-world/#comment-61988</link>
		<author>nyomythus</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://neoneocon.c