I carefully considered every argument you made and responded to it with logic and fact. There’s a moral dimension to the issue of torture so there was of necessity an element of moral condemnation in what I said. People question my logic, facts and morality every time I open my mouth, it’s in the nature of debate, I would hope. But after I had (very successfully in my opinion) rebutted your last point, there was no further argument on any level – - just an artfully-worded condemnation of my alleged “narrow-mindedness” – - an ad hominem attack to which I not surprisingly responded in kind. Supplemented by your latest insufferable admonition to “give others the right to believe differently than you.” Wow, radical idea, Ariel, I’ll try to keep it in mind. Thanks, coach.

It was neither snarky nor insincere. “A wall of of unassailable truths” simply means that no arguments will get through to you. I don’t believe your arguments are right, partly perhaps, but not totally.

Your comment at 2:54 simply buttresses my assessment. I used to have a friend that was a Wobblie, but it was possible to come to some agreement with him, or if not agreement, clarity. I don’t see that with you, especially if someone who disagrees with you, sincerely disagrees with you, is a “BS artist”.

Give others the right to believe differently than you.

You certainly are a wall of unassailable truths. Glad you’re self contained. Have a good life.

Operation Phoenix victims were CIVILIANS, pure and simple. Like U.S. civilians they played a larger or smaller role in the war effort, but bottom line is that they were non-combatant civilians and protected by every international rule of law even before the Geneva Conventions. They were almost always killed after extreme torture, to further intimidate (terrorize) the local population.

It is total bullshit to try to defend the Phoenix Operation and/or to claim that it was not terrorism. Not that that would ever stop you from trying.

By 1967 this network numbered somewhere between 70,000 and 100,000 members throughout South Vietnam. Almost every village had a cell made up of a Communist Party secretary; a finance and supply unit; and information and culture, social welfare, and proselytizing sections to gain recruits from among the civilian population. The members reported up the chain of command, which, in turn, took orders from the Lao Dong Party Central Committee in North Vietnam. A preferred NLF tactic was to kill carefully selected government officials in order to drive the Saigon regime out of the region.[1]

The VCI laid down caches of food and equipment for regular force troops coming from border sanctuaries; it provided guides and intelligence for the People’s Army of Vietnam; it conscripted personnel to serve in local force (militias) and main force mobile combat units of the NLF, and levied taxes to facilitate the administration of a rudimentary civil government.”

They were more than simply civilians. I’m not going to argue this further as obviously we won’t come to any agreement whatsoever.

As for Wright, you can continue saying he is not a racist and I can continue to read transcripts and see clips of his sermons. And again no point in arguing.

Obama wasn’t chastized likely because it wasn’t on the radar yet. Not to mention the nature of Illinois politics and the Democratic machine in Chicago. To be correct, Rezco “gave him” over $650,000 to help buy a mansion. As a legislator at the time, he should not have accepted it whatsoever. Period. If Rezco is convicted, this money will come to haunt Obama. If Keating becomes an issue, and Rezco is convicted, both will be an issue. However, time is short and I doubt either will be a major factor.

Again, McCain was the least involved of the five, and Bennet even recently made the comment that McCain was included because otherwise it would have only been a Democrat scandal. I do take that with a grain of salt, as Bennet, who was the Special Investigator in the Keating Five if I remember correctly, was working as McCain’s lawyer at the time. But that was also a belief in Arizona at the time of the scandal.

I have lived in Arizona for most of my life and McCain is viewed here as an honorable but disagreeable man. He was viewed, in addition to the above, as a dupe in the Keating Scandal, which is why he was reelected. I have never voted for him at all during my time here because frankly, I can’t stand him. I preferred DeConcini, as I wrote before.

I remember the Lincoln collapse, as well as the scandal with the Keating Estrella community. Lived through it, and it simply confirmed what Mecham maintained: that the Arizona Legislature as well as US Reps and Senators were either corrupted by the developers here or would be. AZScam and the Keating Five bore him out to a degree. I couldn’t stand Mecham either

I unfortunately have attended the same church that many of Arizona’s powerful attend (a promise to a Christian wife). It gave me the chance to say hello to Goldwater before he died. It also left me with the dubious honor of “meeting” Sandra Day O’Connor by elbowing her in the breast.

Maybe — just maybe, Ariel – - YOU are the one who is “morally confused.” Maybe, just maybe, YOU are the one who needs to do more reading.

I know what terrorism really is. I know what the PHoenix Program really was. I don’t care if you’ve pulled the wool over your own eyes, don’t try to pull it over mine.

While we’re on the subject of moral clarity and moral confusion, and just so that you’ll know: Jeremiah Wright is a very angry man, but he is not a racist. Bob Jones is a racist. And I do thank you for pointing out that Obama was a state legislator when he represented Rezko, which I had overlooked. Regardless, Obama, unlike McCain, was not chastized by the legislature in which he served for his dealings with Rezko, Rezko (unlike McCain’s patron, Charles Keating) was convicted of nothing and sentenced to nothing, and Obama, unlike McCain, did not materially assist a criminal in bilking thousands of Americans out of their life savings.

I can appreciate that your political blinders may well prevent you from seeing the awesome gap in culpability that separates McCain’s Keating Five activities from anything that Obama may have done, and I can only hope that other McCain supporters are as morally blind as you seem to be, because I would LOVE for this to become a campaign issue. I hope it will.