It’s the free speech, stupid
Like Iowahawk, I’m finding that the attacks on Joe the Plumber have made me angrier than almost anything else in this long and nasty campaign.
It seems to be the most naked example of the technique of crushing anyone or anything that might threaten Obama’s ascension to the Presidency. Never mind that Obama is winning in all the polls. Never mind that Democrats seem poised on the threshold of a sweep of all branches of government. This man must be destroyed because he had the audacity to speak in such a way as to elicit a response from Obama that made the candidate look bad.
Make no mistake about that: Joe did nothing but inadvertently and unintentionally expose Obama’s previously somewhat hidden propensity for income redistribution. So Joe must be made the subject of an immediate and sweeping ad hominem attack. Even if Joe had never plumbed a thing in his life (but if he had I could have used him last night, when my sink was having problems), or if he owed a ton in back taxes, it would not change one iota what Obama said to him, and what it revealed about the candidate’s deepest thoughts.
The Left has not in general been known for its devotion to freedom of speech, unless that speech is from the Left. This is true not only in this country but around the world. Obama is more consistent than any other candidate I can recall in trying to stop the opposition by silencing it; either by legal means (his specialty), by smearing those who would speak out, or by organizing call-ins to shows featuring journalists such as Stanley Kurtz, whose only crime was to try to get the truth out about the Annenburg Challenge.
These things, of course, are Obama’s right. If he wants his lawyers to threaten FCC license challenges to stations that air ads against him that arouse his particular ire, he can do so. If he wants to organize his minions to overwhelm a talk show with critical calls, that’s not against the law either. If his followers want to dig up every nasty thing Joe the Plumber ever did in his life and publish it, they can’t be stopped from doing so.
But take a look at what it says about Obama and about the Left. And if you don’t feel a chill wind blowing, I think you better take another look. Hope and change, indeed.
One of our greatest strengths in this country is freedom of debate and speech. This is as true in a hard-fought campaign as in any other endeavor—maybe even more true. Just because a candidate and his campaign can try to stifle free expresson, does this mean they should? And what does it say about what they will do to consolidate their power once in office?
I’m a fan of Mickey Kaus, who is independent-minded and subtle (maybe too subtle). I just read on his blog that he feels better about Obama — he’s an ambivalent supporter — after having read the account by the conservative Bradford Berenson (I think that’s the name) about Obama’s tenure as editor of the Harvard Law Review. Berenson said that Obama was given more grief by the left elements on the Review than the right. (Of course the right probably consisted of 2 and half people).
Kaus hopes that this is evidence that Obama will govern from the center.
I’d like to take some comfort from this, but I can’t think of anything else reassuring I’ve heard about Obama.
Has anyone else? This is a serious question.
“Free speech for me, but not for thee” is the attitude I have encountered from the Left. And lest anyone think that Neo is engaging in hyperbole, watch what happens next if Obama is elected. The “Fairness Doctrine”, the Orwellian named idea that there must be a countervailing viewpoint provided in any FCC regulated publication, will rear its head once again. The idea will be, of course, to help destroy the hated rightwing radio and blogs. As Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit commented, if that happens, everyone should flood the FCC with complainst about CNN, MSNBC and the lot of the imbalanced news programs.
Of course, why we really need the FCC to regulate much of anything anymore is beyond me.
Pingback:Unfair Doctrine › Neo-neocon on Joe the Plumber
As a Hillary supporter, and one of those dreaded “Puma’s” who now support McCain/Pailn, I’ll only say as a participant in the Democratic Primaries and Caucuses I am not the least bit surprised at Obama’s and his minion’s tactics. In truth no one would be if the MSM would have just done their jobs rather than protect “Teh Precious”.
“Teh Precious” seems to confuse the difference between uniting and submission, the sorry truth is it isn’t confusion, just a slight of hand because political submission is the goal, his useful idiots don’t understand this or don’t care.
You didn’t mention the attacks on Sarah Palin and her family.
What “attacks” have made you angry? Neither you nor Iowahawk say.
I didn’t see Barack Obama attack Joe. Have you?
I didn’t see Barack Obama’s campaign attack Joe. Have you?
I’ve seen it reported that Joe is a Republican. Is that an attack?
I’ve seen it reported that Joe is has a tax lien against him. I don’t know who reported that or why it is relevant. Do you know? Is that an attack?
I’ve seen it reported that he would get more of a tax cut under an Obama administration than a McCain administration. That seems relevant and not an attack.
Anything you could share about what actual events triggered your anger would be illuminating.
Neo,
This man must be destroyed because he had the audacity to speak
Wow!
And Then:
One of our greatest strengths in this country is freedom of debate and speech
So Neo, is there a double standard of Free Speech, or any one speak in different tone must be destroyed?
Holmes
“Free speech for me, but not for thee” is the attitude I have encountered from the Left
This not quite right, there are many examples that both parties doing same and having same altitude and its very apparent but may be in different tactics.
So Free speech working bay both parties isn’t? other wise we are in tyrant system?
As Bill Ayers would say, “You don’t have to be a Weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing.”
In a matter of hours after the fateful exchange, Obama and his supporters mobilized to ransack Joe’s life, with all the finesse of a “no-knock raid,” in search of any piece of dirt they can dig up that can tarnish and silence him, somehow got city officials–usually a torpid lot–to, within 24 hours, examine their files on Joe and announce, publicly, that Joe’s file contains some discrepancies, which means that Joe cannot practice the trade of plumbing in Toledo, and got his union to issue a public statement, saying they are not happy with how he has been progressing in their apprenticeship program; all in an effort to try to crush an ordinary citizen, Joe the Plumber, a “splitter,” “wrecker,” and “deviationist,” if I ever saw one. I am sure this object lesson, demonstrating just how badly things will go for anyone so foolish as to ask questions, talk back or not “get with the program” in the upcoming Obama administration has, as intended, not been lost on all the other “Joes” in the U.S.
Obama’s former employer and recipient of $800,000 in Obama campaign funds for “lighting equipment” and such, the far left agitation group called ACORN, has signed up at least 1.3 million new voters for Obama in key swing states like Ohio (ACORN’s fraudulent voter registration efforts in the critical state of Ohio shielded from scrutiny by the connivance of that state’s Democratic Secretary of State)–with names like Mickey Mouse and Do Good–in a massive and blatant attempt to steal the election.
A few months ago, Obama made another slip, when he inserted lines about his wanting to form a “Civilian National Security Force” as large (1.5 million personnel) and as well funded as DOD (now funded at close to $500 billion per year), in a prepared speech on “Service.” This bizarre, puzzling, and alarming statement was either not reported by the MSM or, if reported, was dismissed out of hand as meaning nothing; sort of like the headline, “Hitler discusses Mein Kampf, Doesn’t Mean A Damn Thing.”
Obama’s plans calling for a massive increases in “volunteerism,” spending for “voluntary” and “grass-roots” organizations and government programs, including–I’m sure, ACORN, that if you remember–was supposed to receive many billions in dollars of taxpayer’s money in the Democrat’s first bailout proposal–and the creation of many more such “volunteer” organizations, which, combined, may well morph into Obama’s “Civilian National Security Force.”
Obama’s lies about his proposed “ tax cut for 95% of the working families in America,” which, it turns out, is a prime piece of “class warfare,” appropriating income from the top 5% of productive, income earners–and you can bet, as time goes on and Obama’s plans and programs expand and multiply, that top 5% will become, the top 10% and then, the top 15% and on and on–to pay for his costly social programs and to payoff millions of
Obama’s low income supporters, by “redistributing” that money to them: welfare checks disguised as “refundable tax credits” for people who already pay no taxes and probably, many of them, do not work at all.
Seems to me Obama, would use these proposals and programs to create quiet a large mob of millions of indebted and devoted followers, such mobs as cadaverous and crass Democratic Strategist James Carville recently hinted, would take to the streets to burn America’s cities, if Obama–who was obviously destined to win–were deprived of his rightful win when his opponents “stole” the election from him.
Seems like very soon, Italy won’t be alone in having an “Il Duce.”
Like Iowahawk, I’m finding that the attacks on Joe the Plumber have made me angrier than almost anything else in this long and nasty campaign.
That’s cause your a real and true classical liberal, Neo. You not only care about the weak and the downtrodden but you study for the solutions in how to make things better. You not only talk about making things better but you actually support and do actions that accomplish such things.
We classical liberals cannot tolerate injustice, regardless of who commits it. It is what separates us from fake liberals.
One of our greatest strengths in this country is freedom of debate and speech.
Don’t worry, Neo. The First Amendment is only there because of the 2nd Amendment. At least, that is what Jacksonians like I believe.
The First Amendment can only truly ever be crippled via intimidation if the Second Amendment is weakened first.
I didn’t see Barack Obama attack Joe. Have you?
The requirements for successful character assassination is very similar to the requirements for successful political (actual) assassination.
Deniability is key, you understand.
So Neo, is there a double standard of Free Speech, or any one speak in different tone must be destroyed?
Personally, I think Truth is running against the limits of his comprehension of written English, Neo. So don’t mind him.
The First Amendment can only truly ever be crippled via intimidation if the Second Amendment is weakened first.
That even includes government sanctioned laws like the Fairness Doctrine. So long as you are personally armed and trained, resistance against government force is still feasible so long as you accept the consequences with your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor.
This is the last stop gap as they say. Then we’ll see how the Left’s view of the 2nd Amendment reacts with reality.
Joe is a symbol of Americans who will be hurt by Barack’s socialism.
Barack and media cannot damage Joe the Symbol via attacking Joe the Person. The only way to invalidate the symbol is to show that Barack’s socialism will not hurt Americans – then **poof** the symbol disappears. If Americans are not going to be hurt by Barack, then Americans do not need a symbol to represent them.
Barack’s problem: Americans believe they will be hurt by Barack’s socialism. This is why Barack is running as a moderate. Because voters will not buy Barack’s assertion that “spreading the wealth” will help them, Barack and friends are trying to invalidate Joe the Symbol via repudiating Joe the Person. It won’t work.
Have faith in American voters. We believe in the American Dream. McCain is going to win.
Yet ironically, and soon to be to the dismay of the anti-war faction, the Obama/Biden ticket is best poised to, and has remarked that they will, pursue the war of terror, when McCain has criticized aggressive maneuvers into Pakistan, and has shown his lack of commitment to foreign affairs by choosing Palin to stand by his side. It might be the case that the Obama/Biden ticket is evolving to carry the war of terror banner, while the McCain/Palin ticket is moving to solidify the Right by appealing to the isolationist, conspiracy-theory, paleoconservative Right.
Be very thoughtful and objective about who is really looking out for the best interest of the preservation of western liberalism which is what we all here ultimate fight and argue for.
Life can be stranger than fiction!
For those pretending there is no “attack” on Joe TP just because his life is being put under a microscope, I’d like to remind you of two things:
– Joe didn’t get into this voluntarily; he was out on his lawn (apparently playing with his kid) when Obama approached him, and Joe asked him a question. Given this, any focus on anything besides Obama’s answer is an attempt to distract from the real issue by attacking an innocent bystander.
– Obama has talked about “spreading the wealth around” and “redistributing the heck out of it” on numerous occasions in his career and has consistently voted in a manner that backs up his belief. Either you agree with this or you don’t, but accept and admit his position here. Plenty of McCain supporters here, myself included, have numerous problems with McCain’s economic policies, and we wear our disagreement on our sleeves while supporting his overall candidacy. What is the need to pretend Obama doesn’t believe in something he clearly does (or at least repeatedly states in his campaign)?
I have faith in American guns and ammo.
Damnit, I really should get a gun, I know how to handle them I just don’t have one. :\
nymosomthing:
“Be very thoughtful and objective about who is really looking out for the best interest of the preservation of western liberalism which is what we all here ultimate fight and argue for.”
Re-read this thread nymosomthing. Its talking about a guy who doesnt quite seem to be interested inj the preservation of western liberalism. Not unless you consider silencing your political opposition a western liberal value.
Oh, and less you forget, the messiah wanted us out of Iraq before they had their chance at forming that werstern-type liberal democracy.
Add me to the list of people who are just appauled by Joe the Plumber suddenly being the object of this kind of treatment, all for the apparent crime of asking a hard question and startling “The One” into giving an honest answer.
It doesn’t bode well, it really doesn’t. If this can be unleashed when “The One” is merely campaigning, what will happen when he achieves the highest office in the land, when there will be many mor minions leaping to do his bidding… or not even his bidding, just doing what they know will please “The One.”
Welcome to my world… I deal with this on a daily basis; simply get a job on any of our college campuses. You will soon experience what it means to have your non-PC speech attacked, your motives questioned (“Racist, Homophobe, etc).
This will soon expand to include the entire country… I’m predicting you will start to see the effects around summer next year.
wanted us out of Iraq before they had their chance at forming that werstern-type liberal democracy.
Yes but he may be evolving from that position, Mr. Ad Homsomething
Yes but he may be evolving from that position
Or, he may not. One never can tell as his answers to even the simplest questions are textbook examples of dissembling, misdirection, Clintonian deniability, and mutually exclusive statements in a single but-ridden sentence. The ‘uhs’ are telling – he is measuring every word to insure that it says nothing that he can ever be held to.
Evolving? There’s the evolution that brings the maturity and self-sacrifice required in a leader, and then there’s the evolution that becomes a chameleon whose position at any moment is calculated 100% to deliver maximum political expediency and personal gain.
I understand what you think you see in Obama, but I don’t understand how your impression can survive even a cursory glance beyond what he has said he has done and what he has actually done. If the past is any indication of the future, Obama will be an indecisive, thin-skinned, and potentially dangerous president.
Biden? He’s a blowhard and a mentally feeble do-nothing that is under qualified to be a senator, much less a VP that will be expected to mentor his president.
Hogarth Or, he may not. One never can tell as his answers to even the simplest questions are
You’ve got a point… that’s why this is so difficult.
Neomythus,
His views on Iraq were offered as as primary evidence of his good judgement and formed the basis of his whole campaign. Why should perfection need to evolve? BO has a tin ear when it comes to foreign policy statements (not his Berlin crowd-pleasing platitudes), which tells me he doesn’t know what he’s talking about or who he’s talking to. He has managed to weasel his way through academia and the cocktail circuit of dem donors, but he insults a heck of a lot of ordinary Americans. Do you honestly think he will be any better at reading the senitivities of foreign citizens? Obama is only succcessful at telling people what they want to hear. He has yet to demonstrate that he will risk anything to tell them the truth.
But the more I get to know Biden the more I like him, I like his superior quality to be self-critical.
expat, maybe our choices are more dismal than we can imagine. I see McCain shrinking from standing up for our international secular friends and thus for ourselves. And Obama (at least possibly) evolving towards some ability to be more than what he was when he began this race. Obama does have a knack for telling one audience one thing and another audience another thing and I won’t forget this, and hsis associations are abominable (no pun intended but some truth irony) no doubt.
Palin is just clueless and McCain is slipping physically and mentally.
The choices are not good.
Because Joe managed to get Obama to admit he’s a Marxist with his “share the wealth” answer, he was subject to harassment by the Obama-bots.
Obama himself mocked the guy & McCain for sticking up for him.
Instead of the media digging up dirt about Joe because he asked a damn question, why the hell aren’t they looking into Obama’s answer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4cnqqsOioE
The hero of the classic Orwellian movie, “Brazil” was a undercover, unlicensed plumber.
People think $250,000 is a lot of money for someone running a small business, it isn’t. There are vehicles and equipment to maintain, payroll and insurance, it’s a volatile circle that can not often sustain interruptions of the normal.
This was arrogant, naive, or nasty (or combination thereof) of Obama — but blasting al Qaeda into the Stone Age is essential because if we let up — there may not be a western democracy to worry about any more, and some temporary form of western capitalism/socialism might be the necessary trade off.
Did I not mention the choices are dismal?
curt — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUzn8tobguk
I remember hearing Geraldo talking to someone (Bill O’Reilly I think – one of the few times I watched him except for the Dennis Miller segments) and he was talking about free speech. I think it might have been the Imus thing, actually. Geraldo said, “I think anyone should be allowed to say anything unless it puts someone in danger OR (and here is the key) if ti was something of a racial nature. It just illustrates what I have always said, “Everyone is in favor of free speech – until someone says something they don’t like.” Obama’s campaign is going after this guy in order to try to deflect attention from what he (Obama) said. I think in this case, though, Toto has a good grip on the curtain. Today in St. Louis Obama said he IS NOT going to give tax cuts to those who don’t pay taxes. But it has to be a canard because the math just doesn’t add up if you know over 40% of the people who file federal income taxes don’t pay any taxes.
Palin is not clueless. Palin will “become.” In 2012, it may well be Palin vs. Clinton, as I have felt for some time. McCain waited until Obama chose Biden openly, then chose Palin. Biden was chosen for weeks, perhaps months before that. Hillary was never seriously considered. The Clinton name was at once baggage and a package – not to mention a limelight hog.
With Obama, (and in agreement with Ann Coulter) I believe we are seeing an opposite of the Bradley effect. No one wants to be accused of racism, so Obama’s poll numbers are high. Once inside the booth with the curtain closed, I believe we may see something else.
We HAVE seen open use of Saul Alinsky tactics on Joe the Plumber. Obama stepped right in it, and had to destroy Joe.The media are willing accomplices, doing the dirty work for him. I believe everyone sees it, even democrats. Too many liberals and not enough conservatives have read Handbook for Radicals. As iowahawk has stated, I am Joe. We are all Joe. Obama, and the media, would do the same thing to each and every one on this planet – no matter who, no matter what party, causing Obama to be exposed for what he is. Anyone who thinks otherwise is one dim bulb.
Doesn’t anyone wonder how (we know why) ACORN got into the first bail out draft? Why it was only 3 pages or so? Why the approved one was 500 or so, and full of pork?
Obama is not going to win. It is not because of his color. It is because of his tactics, his affiliations, his politics, and where he wishes to take this country. He wants to take this country to a place even most democrats do not want to go. He is trying to fool all of the people all of the time.
John Prine said it pretty damned well 35 years ago. Blow up your TV, throw away your paper.
Get a copy of the Constitution and a Bible. Whenever in doubt about anything, go to them. You will find what you need to know there. Vote for McCain so that Palin has all the springboard she needs for 2012.
I’ve had enough of this crap.
I sincerely hope a lefty takes my McCain-Palin sign away and tries to hit me on the head with it.
Curiously, many of the responses, especially the ones from the Obama supporters, avoid the grave moral issues that neoneocon raises, and which I have gone ballistic about on a prior thread or two.
Let me be clear about this. I used to be an intellectual, academic-aspiring Marxist. I’ve studied all of the important works and thinkers in this strand of Western philosophy, as well has having solid grounding in the classical foundations of Western Philosophy. As well as Catholic and Protestant Christian theology. I know something about the history of ideas and the ethical systems that flow out of these various traditions.
I don’t think like a political activist or debater. I am not a spokesman for the Republican or Democrat parties. I was a registered Democrat for my entire adult life until I was 47 years old. I am now 53. I look at these political battles through a different prism, methodically and carefully. The only thing that really matters to me in life is that I and we become better human beings. In fact, the exact fulcrum point which was the test of which way I was going to go in life – socialism or capitalism – depended upon how I was able to answer for myself two questions:
1. Is Marx’s claim that socialism will create a new, moral man a true statement that stands the test of objective verification and have some kind of scientific basis?
2. Is the argument from classical liberalism and traditional Christian thought, viz., that socialism can not work because it is not compatible with human nature, a valid argument?
If I was to become an academic Jesuit priest and theologian, in my tradition truth, knowledge, and science trump ideological biases. But at least I admit that my biases at that time inclined me towards Marxism.
Eventually, I discovered that my answers to those above questions led me to break with Marxism. I discovered that socialism does not make a new, moral man. In fact, quite the reverse in socialist experiment after failed experiment.
So, ethics are my foundation and fall back position. I never studied political science. I’m not a political junkie. I do have a pretty good grounding in history.
The story about how Joe the Plumber’s life has been undressed in public and his person metaphorically raped by political operatives and their media sycophants offends my moral sensibilities. He did nothing to merit this assault. He simply asked a question of a political candidate, who happens to be running for Commander in Chief, who was passing through JOE’S NEIGHBORHOOD. Joe didn’t seek this man out. He’s not an operative. He asked a straightforward question. Joe’s background and wrinkles in his life should not be the business of Barack Obama and his hired thugs. This is ethically wrong, what they did to him.
You cannot justify this to my satisfaction.
Arguments about the double standards applied by the media and the Obamabots, while important and revealing, are not germane to the immediate moral violation of this man. I judge Obama’s and his campaign operatives morally reprobate for this.
Nor is that all.
The people who work in offices which house the files of information about Joe who gave this information over to the NKVD chekists have also damned themselves by this behavior. Morally, they are swine rolling around in the muck of perdition too.
I challenge anyone to refute this reasoning of mine. I dare you to engage in focused disputation of this. Don’t come to me to try to change the subject or to try some kind of tu quoque excrement. Tell me how you justify this behavior and why impugning this man’s life is a truthful way to impugn the question he asked.
Those of you who approve of this behavior or who approve of the results need to take a good hard look at yourselves. In the Catholic and Protestant religious traditions which used to be the more reliable foundations of our culture, there was a practice called the examination of conscience. We Catholics do it before we receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Penance, or “the confessional”). Protestants do this sometimes during their Sunday services. I suggest you get acquainted with the concept of sin and what it entails. That is, if you are even capable of a sense of guilt and shame.
All the attacks against Palin and against Joe–sifting through the garbage, combing through the tax records, arrest records, nexus/lexus, genealogical records etc. Obama’s campaign has descended into utter scumminess.
Is Obama scum? He certainly associates with scum. How about it BO? Can you ever stand for anything and put your weight behind it without shifting and flippy flopping? I thought not.
I expected someone could find some ‘attacks’ on Joe the Plumber.
But as of yet in this thread, no one has been able to document a single one.
So, what’s really making you angry?
Obama, his campaign operatives, the Obamabots, the various Leftist “Progressives,” and much of the media and journalism in this country ALL practice the ethics of expediency. Just as Lenin and Marx advocated it should be practiced.
Now, I read “The Prince” many years ago and, actually, I agree with it in part. But you have to be very, very careful about the ends you use to justify the means. Not all ends set the standard. Some ends are morally superior to others. As a former Marxist, I say that the socialist revolution is an undesirable end to commit expediency in the service of.
Destroying Joe’s life in order to advance Obama’s ambitions and vision of socialism is perverted. It must be opposed, and all those outraged by it still have their moral compass.
FredHjr, I agree with you. Those who participated in this attack on Joe the Plumber are indeed morally bankrupt. The information on Joe that has been released, should be considered private. Not to mention the speed in which it was acquired. Makes one wonder how all those bad mortgage loans happened in the first place, eh?
Those who gave that information to the media, and those who placed it out there for all to see would agree, and would be mortified, had it been done to them. Their actions should be punishable in a court of law. I would love to see this happen.
copithorne,
I am mainly referring to the responses on the other thread on this topic from a day or two ago. There is some detritus from the Left justifying this.
copithorne : the assumption is that if you are here, you have the minimal information-seeking skills to discover them yourself.
Apparently you do not.
The basic scorecard is: condescension from Obama.
But from “clinging to guns and religion” Obama, that is no surprise.
Attack dog mentality from the MSM, contrasted with how they treat tax issues for Obama and others. While there may be a tax lien on Joe, what about Obama’s reporting income from making speeches when in the Ill leg, when same was not permitted for Ill legislators ?Minimal press interest in THAT.
Check out Gateway Pundit, for example, in addition to whatever links Neo has provided.
copithorne: the invasion of privacy, for one thing. The reason it was done, for another.
Since I have answered you leading question, what say you ?
What is nobody seems to be getting about the Obama-Joe the Plumber issue is that what happened is NOT about Joe the Plumber and who he is, it is NOT about the question that Joe the Plumber asked.
It IS ALL ABOUT the response that Obama gave.
All the other stuff is radar chaff thrown up to confuse the issue.
Danny,
From a different angle, you are correct to state that. But it isn’t ALL about that. The ethics of this man and his supporters in the media, and the voters committed to him are very, very important too. They give us a window into HIM and OURSELVES.
This is how despots and their bootlickers behave. They are bound in a thuggish miasma of moral relativism that signify a sickness afoot in the nation.
Of course Obama’s response to Joe was revealing. Obama and his operatives saw a crack open up for McCain to exploit, and they are destroying another human being unjustly in order to advance the socialist revolution.
We have an entire generation of kids, the Baby Boomlet Generation (the one behind GenX) that has fused with the Older Cohort of Baby Boomers, in an alliance to destroy capitalism and lay the West open to predation from abroad. The danger is not just to our Republic and its Constitution. If we fall, so does all of human civilization, and the carcass will be picked over by the stronger polarity in the Unholy Alliance between Western socialists and Islam. My bet is that Islam will win that rumble. Easily. And then the darkness that humanity descends into will be for a very long time.
It is, ultimately, our moral disorder and our intellectual sloth that lays up open to the predators waiting and circling. Obama will be the first one inside the perimeter.
If Soros the Puppet Master and company are able to get Obama in the White House – and I believe they will succeed – then Euro-socialism is the model for the U.S. With filibuster proof deliberative bodies, anything they want can and will go through.
Therefore, a very relevant question proceeds from this: if the United States goes in the direction of modeling itself after France or Germany in its economic, foreign policy, and cultural trends how will we be able to effectively defend against the very same ailments which have taken hold of Europe and ravaged it for decades. Right at the very moment Europe is beginning to rethink its established socialist path, the United States is going down that very path. Even Canada is shifting center-Right.
So, I disagree with many who still cling to the belief that the U.S. is a center-Right country. It is not. It is now a center-Left nation, and the demographic phenomenon I described in my above post explains some of it.
“copithorne : the assumption is that if you are here, you have the minimal information-seeking skills to discover them yourself.”
One of the classic trolling techniques is to pretend ignorance and demand that people waste their time documenting what you should already know. Feh.
My favorite comment about how liberals treat Joe the Plumber is “You have an inconvenient question about our leader? Show us your papers!”
I understand what you think you see in Obama, but I don’t understand how your impression can survive even a cursory glance beyond what he has said he has done and what he has actually done. If the past is any indication of the future, Obama will be an indecisive, thin-skinned, and potentially dangerous president.
Nyo has a hard prejudice about religion and those that believe in God. Thus Sarah Palin, like with many individuals set against religion, givs a justification for Nyo.
But the more I get to know Biden the more I like him, I like his superior quality to be self-critical.
This opens up a space or vacuum to see things in Obama that one wishes is there, for the alternatives of a Sarah Palin must be avoided.
Every time you are asked to “name the attacks”, you neo-CONS ignore the question.
You’re all ANGRY at the Liberal-in the tank for Obamamania-media. This is badly misplaced. In fact, it’s hilarious, when you give it a little thought.
Anytime a Presidential Campaign decides to use a person as the main focus of their publicity, that person will be vetted by the press. What’s amazing about this, is that the vetting wasn’t done before the foot-in-mouth by the more-and more-amaturish appearing McCain Campaign.
And… any time a Presidential Candidate chooses a running mate, you would have expected that person to have been fully vetted by the campaign instead of picked in some crazed desperation, knee-jerk focus group reaction. Right? Right.
If McCrazy had picked CTW or KBH, he would be much better off right now. I wonder if either of them even got a bit of consideration.
FredHjr,
as always, I enjoy your comments almost as much as I do Neo’s site. Even if I am a semi-PaleoCon.
“If we fall, so does all of human civilization, and the carcass will be picked over by the stronger polarity in the Unholy Alliance between Western socialists and Islam. My bet is that Islam will win that rumble. Easily. And then the darkness that humanity descends into will be for a very long time.”
Someone put this link up a while back, maybe at this site. Maybe you were the one, but I cannot help but think about it when I see what is happening in Europe.:
http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/compare.html
Neo, what many including you have posted is true. What I’ve been trying to point out is that for many of us that have had unfortunate disagreements with family and erstwhile close friends, the messages in
Now Hear This! This is Not a Test! What were merely disagreements will now be turned against you through administrative and criminal procedures sparked by as little as innocent conversations on your own property.
Well, if the collectivists who front Obama – those billionaire friends of Soros and assorted millionaires – believe that my income should be redistributed (and that threshold is going to be a lot lower than $250K), then I should think those Comrades should also consent to their wealth being redistributed.
But somehow I don’t think that’s part of the plan.
Some Comrades are more equal than others, eh Kommissar?
Still, no one has been able to identify even one attack or a even one attacker.
I’ve read the history, I checked the links. There are no attacks idenified in the prior post. Iowahawk doesn’t identify any attacks.
Surely, somebody must have attacked Joe. You read something or heard something and it caused this anger in sympathy with Joe the Plumber. It seems as though it is not easy to look at what that thing is, though. Maybe if you looked at it you would find it is not worth disturbing your peace over.
Things are very hotly partisan now, I suppose. Moral outrage surely must have its own addictive appeal.
copi-troll-ne,
You sure need to improve your communication & comprehension skills…
Oh, and have you heard about Google?
jackshit wrote:
“Anytime a Presidential Campaign decides to use a person as the main focus of their publicity, that person will be vetted by the press.”
JtP has been “vetted” more in 2 days than BO has in 2 years. BO whined at the debate about McCain bringing up Ayers but he’s all over JtP. Tell Axelrod you need somewhere else to astroturf, pal.
Oh, don’t be an ass. Happens I’ve starting keeping a Joe list like my Palin list. You can find them at my site.
#1: The Politico sent a reporter out to investigate Joe’s tax records and published that he had had a tax lien.
#2: They accused him of not really being a plumber (he’s an apprentice about to finish a 5 year program required by law. He’s not in the Union, but then he doesn’t work for a union shop, either.)
#3: The Toledo blade dug up his divorce and publicized his 2007 salary, suggesting he must be lying about buying the company because he didn’t make $250K yet.
#4: The New York Times an a whole story concentrating on his personal life, also covering these things.
#5: He was accused of racism because he said Obama tap-danced around the question like Sammy Davis Jr. Which is of course racist, because he could have chosen any of the hundreds of extremely famous white tap dancers.
#6: He was accused of being a Republican plant, the proof being that he had the same last name as someone associated with Charles Keating. (In fact it was reported his was related to Keating, but even Daily Kos had to back down on that one.)
#7: Toledo City and union officials have announced they’re looking into his employment.
#8: Andy Sullivan said “Joe” wasn’t his real name, proving he was mendacious; see, his real name is “Samuel Joseph” and he goes by his middle name.
#9: In the same one-sentence blurb, he questioned whether Joe was even really a man. Not that Andy would know.
#10: Obama went on naional television to attack Joe with derisive laughter at the notion that a mere kulak like him could aspire to own a plumbing company and have $250K revenue.
#11: Ditto Biden.
I’ve read the history, I checked the links. There are no attacks idenified in the prior post. Iowahawk doesn’t identify any attacks.
Oh, and by the way, you’re a disingenuous fool.
jackscrow Says:
Are you freaking kidding me? If McCain had picked anyone other than Sarah Palin he would be dead and buried by now and we would be looking at an Obama landslide.
The future of this Republic may be riding on the shoulders of one woman right now and I am not kidding.
Which explains why the left is so desperate to discredit and destroy her.
No sympathy.
Mark Steyn claimed, apropos the attacks of Graeme Frost and his family, that if you venture into politics anything goes. Well, the Obama campaign hasn’t done anything to Joe, except try to explain Henry Ford’s approach to creating an industrial base (a large number of well-off consumers means more sales). And Obama supporters and the media have done nothing worse than explain that (a) anyone who makes more than a quarter million a year makes a lot more than the average American plumber; (b) he doesn’t actually have a plumber’s license, (c) he has registered Republican (d) he would actually have his taxes cut under Senator Obama’s plan, and (e) he owes back taxes anyway.
Compare that to the counter-top inspections and harassment aimed at the family of of a twelve year old. You guys have to understand at some point that if you make politics into all-out war, your enemies may start shooting back. So stop whining.
Interesting how any dirt that can be found about “Joe the Plumber” is unearthed within hours, but the now long-standing issue of Obama’s birth certificate continues to be stonewalled by Obama, the mainstream media, the entire political establishment, and judicial department. I want to see a credible presentation of that birth certificate, the American people have the right to demand it. The birth certificate issue, in combination with the magnitude of the rampant voter registration fraud, as well as foreign Obama campaign contributions virtually exclusively documented concerning the Democrat’s and their operatives, paints a picture of authentic sedition, tantamount to treason.
I have to say something, not related to this thread exactly, but sort of — it’s something that’s been on my mind lately regarding ACORN, the polls, and the state of the race:
1) I think the polls are B.S.; and
2) If the left is so sure of its candidate — if the talk about a landslide win over McCain/Palin is not just chest-thumping before the fight — why is ACORN trying to steal the election? Why taint what is to be a legitimate win with the dark cloud of inevitable accusations of voter fraud?
Now, I realize this is simply what ACORN does — I’m sure they did it in previous presidential elections
(I remember there was some strange stuff going on in WI and WA in 2004, for example) — but these are Obama’s people. Forget what he says publicly — he knows them, and if the win is in the bag, like I said, why taint it?
My conclusion is that it isn’t in the bag at all. Check this out: http://www.zombietime.com/lefts_big_blunder/
Maybe he’s wrong, but that stuff about using camera angles to create the impression of larger crowds, along with similar tactics to manipulate people’s perceptions, strikes me as very strange. Manipulating reality is a HUGE part of their strategy — but why would you need to manipulate reality to such a degree (i.e., down to crowd size) if the latter is on your side?
I think reality is NOT on their side. The Obama campaign, the media, and maybe even some pollsters, want us to quit. They want us to think that the situation is lost. Remember, it’s what they did with the Iraq war: their goal was to demoralize the country into losing the war so they could gain politically. And they almost were successful.
I don’t know what’s going to happen on November 4th, but it is my sincere belief that, without the media, there is no way any of the current leaders of the Democratic Party could win a national election. I don’t think Hillary could, and I am certain that Obama could not. Kerry outspent Bush in 2004 by around $120 million, and now Obama is outspending McCain by even more that than. TV and radio are saturated with Obama spots; they have the media covering for them at every turn, and digging into the other ticket, down to Joe the Plumber — and still the polls remain close.
So I ask you, what is going on here?
Demoralization is a powerful force, people — wars have been won, by the losing parties, by tricking their winning adversaries into thinking they could not win — by convincing them, in other words, to forfeit the fight.
Granted, I’m still crossing my fingers, but I think we may have more reason to be positive about this election than many of us think.
John Spragge, come on. The man didn’t “venture into politics.” Obama ventured into HIS DRIVEWAY to ask for his vote. It is not venturing into politics to ask a candidate a question before giving him your vote.
There was a time in this country, believe it or not, when people who didn’t have plumbers’ licenses and owed some back taxes were actually allowed to speak. They didn’t get savaged, they didn’t get sneered at by the Democratic nominee for their chosen livelihood. Even harder to believe, there was also a time when the Democratic Party did not use the politics of personal destruction to silence ideas. There is a name for political systems that gain power that way. It is not “democracy.”
The Left has not in general been known for its devotion to freedom of speech, unless that speech is from the Left.
If I take a fast look at the “FCC licence challenge” (does the coinage slightly rely on the fact that no-one will bother to read the “licence” challenge?)
But let me coin something along the lines of the above, even leaving out the loophole and make it a straightforward generalization:
The right has not been known for its devotion to facts preferring much more deception, especially if it serves its own aims
The Left has not in general been known for its devotion to freedom of speech, unless that speech is from the Left.
sorry. I must have forgotten the slash.
ACORN is just the tip of the iceberg, a mere distraction. The real thuggery is happening under the noses of election officials in voting districts dominated by organized crime, unions, and the Democratic Party, otherwise known as the triumvirate.
Packing the courts with members of the triumvirate after achieving total power in the “election” should allow changes to de facto government to become permanent over practical time frames.
This is how darkness falls, the real thing. Stop it if you can. But if you can’t stop it, what happens next?
Evidently the Obama campaign astroturfing effort is out in force this weekend. One can tell that “demand proof of these so-called ‘attacks’ and then question any sources they cite” was one of the instructions in the mass email.
mrs whatsit,
Isn’t it interesting that those same dems who try to discredit Joe are at the forefront of the movement to grant voting rights to felons? Not having a plumber’s licence makes your question illegitimate, but being a drug dealer, gang banger or murderer qualifies you to determine the fate of the country. They only want to be fair. Democracy comes in last on their scale of values.
Maybe Copithorne should skip taking all those quaaludes and start reading the daily newspaper if he wants to see the attacks on Joe the Plumber. Oh yes, he could start taking some Geodon to make those pesky voices in his head go away.
Obama and his minions stepped in doo-doo on this one and they know it.
I just wish a 10 year old black kid with down syndrome would have asked the question, so there’d be no ambiguity among even the touchy feely obamatons about what exactly this man and his campaign represents.
Thanks so much for putting this into words. This is exactly what I have been thinking the past few days.
LeaNder The Left has not in general been known for its devotion to freedom of speech, unless that speech is from the Left.
Yes, the Left as they are something of an ”unquestionable” and ”untouchable by non-believers” sort of religion …. but to be fair the Religious Right accept no dissension either.
Which Palin seems to have a talent for stirring up the latter as the very worst of the Right. I’m not going to support an anti-intellectual, defacto surrender/isolationist platform or am I going to support Obama’s ”dump the treasure at the feet of the people and they’ll love me even more and kiss the feet of those international thugs that hate freedom most” style of governing, but in fact I will choose one or the other ticket. I abstained in 2000 and in 2004 I should not abstain forever, ugh this sucks!!
that should read, or am I
I mean NOR AM I
gah, i detest ”no preview!!!” and yes it would help at least a tiny bit 😀
Nyomythus: agreed the hassle about lack of preview. Go to another site, such as American Thinker, to preview it. Put your comment on a Word Doc first.(Even those agnostics who do not get their knickers in a twist re Palin are ,on occasion, able to think and problem solve.)
As noted on the previous thread about Joe Wurzelbacher; Joe the Plumber asked a valid question and Obama engaged him in a six minute discussion on tax policies in a respectful manner. The McCain campaign then used tiny clips of that exchange to attack those tax policies. McCain went on to made Joe the Plumber the centerpiece of his strategy in the third debate. Joe says of this, “I think it helped them get their points across, so I was happy about that.”
McCain’s repeated invocation of “Joe the Plumber” in the debate is what put all the media attention on Joe as an individual which resulted in reporters and anyone who can Google delving into Joe’s personal history and life. This is not an attack by Obama or his campaign. This is not a “public rape” of Joe by closet commies. This is simply the messy reality of someone who finds himself caught up in the media circus covering the election campaign by virtue of McCain’s choice to focus attention on Joe.
With only one exception none of the comments have offered links or quotes that show the Obama campaign attacking Joe, only to things like FOX edited clips that juxtapose tiny snippets of Obama’s exchange with Joe and a subsequent Obama stump speech where he pokes fun at McCain’s obsessive use of Joe the Plumber as a rhetorical device in the debate. In short, only to other partisans making the same accusations.
Charlie the Colorado Plumber at least provides references to some of the media that have looked at Joe Wurzelbacher and what they reported. Of course, he references without attribution the strongest accusations against Joe and fails to show any connection between these media reports and the Obama campaign. The inference is that there is a grand conspiracy between the media and the Obama campaign. That is one of the hallmarks of belonging here on Neo-neo, it means anything you don’t like that gets reported by the press can be ignored or discounted.
Now, as for REAL underlying topic, Obama’s tax position, the idea that his proposals for tweaking the tax codes to reduce taxes for better than 80% of wage earners while increasing the rates for the top 5% proves Obama is a Marxist … well, I really want to know what drugs you guys are on.
Aside to copithorne — You need to recognize that on this site (where anyone to the left of Dick Cheney is either an idiot or a Stalinist) any who dare to depart from the echo chamber mentality are immediately labeled “trolls” or “operatives” and dismissed. No one feels any need to be reasonable or to actually answer any pertinent questions or refute points, we’re all either idiot trolls or Stalinist Obamamaniac operatives and beneath contempt.
We’ve seen the tactic of endlessly repeating a misleading trope with no supporting evidence before. Here it is with the unsubstantiated claim that Joe is being “publicly raped” by the Obama campaign. Frankly, this is such a gross misuse of language that rape victims should be offended.
Gringo Says: Nyomythus: agreed the hassle about lack of preview. Go to another site, such as American Thinker, to preview it. Put your comment on a Word Doc first.(Even those agnostics who do not get their knickers in a twist re Palin are ,on occasion, able to think and problem solve.)
Oh the ad homs are so cuuuute
btw: Grings advice only goes for those that don’t march in lock step with the status quo.
Doesn’t help, no sir it doesn’t help. And as expected, see ya.
“Chris White” and a few of you still do not “get it.” Joe’s question to the future President Obama was legit. The wrinkles in his life are immaterial to the validity of the question.
He was indeed metaphorically raped by NKVD chekists. His life was trashed by people who did not like the fact that he asked an uncomfortable question and Obama’s answer alarmed a lot of people.
So, a message was sent: If you mess with me by making me look bad, I will burn you so badly you will never recover. I will destroy your life and make the public humiliation so heavy that you might never get out from under that burden. And I will always find people in offices where confidential information is kept and in the media who will gladly help me do this to you.
“Chris White” I’ve gotcha by the throat in an ironclad grip of logic and moral reasoning. You can’t squirm out of it. To try to deflect, change the subject, or change the focus will not work. You cannot avoid the logical ramifications of your choice.
You accuse neo of having an echo chamber, but if we came over into your ‘hood and posted our opinions over there we would be banned and our opinions deleted. I’ve seen it happen to friends of mine. In academia, grad students, undergrad students, faculty, and staff who are conservatives HAVE TO HIDE THEIR VIEWS FOR FEAR OF VERY REAL RETRIBUTION. Yes, you people are Stalinists. The ethics of expediency do obtain among the collectivists.
You can’t hide from the truth forever, however much you want to silence it. And no one knows the socialists like a former Marxist. Those of us who left the Left are utterly despised by former comrades and fellow travelers. For a very good reason. We took the playbooks with us.
This is simply the messy reality of someone who finds himself caught up in the media circus covering the election campaign by virtue of McCain’s choice to focus attention on Joe.
Ah, collateral damage. That’s ok then. I do see your point that this isn’t directly Obama’s fault, although one would think he might go so far as to repudiate that actions of his most effective communications arm, our “objective” media. I’m sure these aren’t the actions of the media that he thought he knew.
the idea that his proposals for tweaking the tax codes to reduce taxes for better than 80% of wage earners while increasing the rates for the top 5% proves Obama is a Marxist…
Allow me to paraphrase:
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”
Odd how paraphrasing Karl Marx tends to lead to accusations of Marxism. How does that keep happening to such a staunch capitalist and free market advocate as Obama?
nyomythus:
btw: Grings advice only goes for those that don’t march in lock step with the status quo.
The only advice I gave was how to deal with lack of preview in this blog.
I will rephrase my comment in parentheses : even though I am an agnostic and can live with the selection of Sarah Palin as VP candidate, I am on occasion able to think and problem solve. Why do you have a problem with that comment?
How is that an ad hominem attack, when I made only reference to myself?
I hope, and suspect, but will not rely on faith, that Joe will be given a lot of lucrative plumbing deals — I mean there are many people who are also sympathetic to the guy, if I were rich and I lived in the neighborhood I’d employ him in heartbeat.
I like people that respectfully stand up to power, whether they mean to or not, and just for the kindness of help what seems like a good person who may be persecuted for innocently speaking his mind.
I have family that have small businesses like this, it’s not an easy life but it is a rewarding life in that you command your own destiny.
It’s just common sense, and common decency. Say that Joe the Plumber is your brother, or son. He’s playing football in his front yard with his son. The Democrat nominee for Potus chooses Joe for a photo op. Joe asks a perfectly legitimate question, that the pol botches.
In what reasonable, decent, moral universe would Joe deserve the treatment he’s gotten?
Of course, many in the media are jackals. Always have been, Always will. Joe’s innocent question stung their guy, and so the fangs came out. Probably to be expected. McCain exploited Obama’s answer–who wouldn’t?
But here’s the thing. Obama could have taken the high road and denounced the media scrutiny. He didn’t. Instead, he made fun of Joe. That’s just slimy. And let me tell you, we out here in flyover country understand perfectly well what he did, and we won’t forget.
The real topic here is not Joe, or Obama tax policy, but mentality behind this policy: redistribution of wealth by government agencies. Yes, this is socialism. And New Deal also was a socialism. Propose such things during looming recession is the surest way to turn it into depression. But even this is not the most troubling – but totalitarian, anti-liberal attitudes of Obama supporters, their instinctive rage to suppress every dissent voice. Utopian mentality and respect to individual liberty are incompatible, and this furore about Joe has shown this once more with utmost clarity.
“… need to recognize that on this site (where anyone to the left of Dick Cheney is either an idiot or a Stalinist) any who dare to depart …”
Chris, the thing about “you people” is your double standard. If there was any hint of Republican activity comparable to the birth certificate issue, documented serial voter registration fraud, foreign and other questionable campaign contributions and records, as well as attempts at obfuscation of significant political associations and personal qualification records and history, as demonstrated by Obama and company, you would be all over it. You know that’s true, and it makes you crass hypocrites. To your credit, you “almost” have the definition correct; But more precisely, you’re not either/or, but more like a cross between an idiot and a Stalinist, otherwise known as “Progressives”.
And thank-you Sergey for your succinct, but insightful and well defined comment at 11:30!
FredHjr,
When you run for office sign me up for your campaign.
Sergey, obviously equality and freedom are incompatible, but I’m afraid that Americans will have to live through it to actually understand it. Too many people are actually believing the “hope and change” stuff. When did the US became a third world country?
note to Chris White:
You may have read my post about when I ban people and when I don’t. If you haven’t, please take a look now, because in this comment of yours you have entered troll territory yourself.
Not for disagreeing. As I’ve said—and demonstrated—countless times, I have no problem with disagreement and respectful argument. But you have ignored that and accused me and the commenters here of “dismissing” everyone who disagrees, and of not listening to or responding to argument. Some commenters here of course do not, but many patiently explain and answer questions (as I often do, as well, much more than I ordinarily have time for). Those facts are ignored when you say, as you did in that comment:
You need to recognize that on this site (where anyone to the left of Dick Cheney is either an idiot or a Stalinist) any who dare to depart from the echo chamber mentality are immediately labeled “trolls” or “operatives” and dismissed. No one feels any need to be reasonable or to actually answer any pertinent questions or refute points, we’re all either idiot trolls or Stalinist Obamamaniac operatives and beneath contempt.
You are the one dismissing the evidence offered you, especially of the behavior of many on this blog who have tried to engage you and others in discussion on the merits.
And if you don’t see what Obama has done here and what it says about him, then you are in denial.
Oh, of course, it’s just a “snippet” from Fox News. That means it didn’t happen, or that is has no meaning. And by the way that “snippet” business is one of Obama’s favorite methods of deflecting valid criticism. How can anyone look at this clip honestly and see it as anything other than condescending elitism and a way to devalue the messenger Joe—as well as mocking a McCain who would do something so foolish as to “fight” for him?
I have taken the time and trouble to respond to you and not to ban you at this point because until now you have seemed to represent a relatively respectful disagreement. Keep going into troll territory, however, and you will be banned.
cop is pretending there’s nothing wrong with invading Joe’s life.
Which is to say, there’s no reason to think cop and his ilk would complain if it happened to lots and lots of people who said something cop didn’t like.
IOW, get used to it, or shut up.
Sorry Gringo I may have had trouble interpreting the grammar, no pun intended; but there were nuances that weren’t to nice, so don’t do that.
neomythos:
You are aware that here I am only citing neo-neocon, are you?:
LeaNder The Left has not in general been known for its devotion to freedom of speech, unless that speech is from the Left.
That’s absolutely hypocritical. Everybody want free speech for what he considers right while demanding a huge protective barrier around everything she considers sacred.
The left and right rhetoric is nothing but hot air. It neetly puts the good (and sacred?) people in one box and the evil ones in the other.
I agree that it’s not fair that the guy asked a simple question and finds all his dirty laundry in public. How many of us could stand up to that?
HOWEVER, I can’t understand why no one on this board is holding McCain responsible. By his own admission, McCain made JtP a central talking point of the third debate without even informing JtP that he was doing so. This is unconscionable. He should have at least given the guy a heads up, and given him the chance to opt out.
This is how you treat your supporters?
kamper: could you give a cite for McCain saying he never spoke to Joe first? I’m not saying you’re wrong; I’m just curious about the cite.
However, at least in my recollection, Joe was already a huge celebrity by that time, and was being used against Obama already. McCain made it more so, but it had already happened. My very strong suspicion is that the attacks on Joe would have come whether McCain used him in the debate or not.
If it is true that McCain failed to consult Joe, it was an oversight—but only because McCain failed to see that the attack dogs would bite so hard. He is not responsible for their actions: they are.
From Politico:
A McCain source said Thursday that the campaign read about Wurzelbacher on the Drudge Report, while another campaign aide confirmed that he was not vetted. Senior McCain adviser Matt McDonald told Politico after the debate that Wurzelbacher was not aware that he would become central to the candidates’ third and final showdown, although Wurzelbacher told reporters Thursday that the McCain campaign contacted him earlier in the week to ask him to appear with the candidate at a Toledo rally scheduled for Sunday. (He may not make it, now that he’s scheduled to be in New York for TV interviews.)
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14652.html
Thanks, kamper. It does appear he was at least consulted by McCain about participating further, although not about the debate itself.
Funny how Senator Obama has no problem sitting down and talking with the likes of Hugo Chavez and the Iranian President with no conditions. But when an average Joe asks him a question that he answered, in my opinion, truthfully then it is time to destroy the questioner. No discussion in the media about Obama’s answer other than obfuscation but plenty of stories about how Joe is not really Joe. I am absolutely sick and tired of working my butt off to make a better life for myself and then to have someone reach into my pocket and tell me that I need to “spread the wealth around”. That is utter nonsense. I will gladly help anyone who help themselves but there are entirely too many people with their hands out that have two arms and two legs and are fully capable of working. I hear plenty of excuses from these people, such as “I don’t want to move from this city” or “that job does not pay enough”. Through hard work I now make over $100K, that is money I earned through 90+ hour work weeks. Do the math, 90 hour work weeks means hardly any time off. And that is without the benefit of a college education. It makes my blood boil whenever I hear someone says I have not paid my fair share. When do I get my emancipation?
Neo — First, the link I’m supposed to follow to read what gets one banned does not work. And, on a site where I’ve been called a multitude of insulting names and accused of crimes and misdemeanors (up to and including treason) for expressing views not shared by the hard core, I find it (un)surprising that liberal voices are the only ones blocked or dismissed as “trolls”. If I get blocked for a comment like my mild sarcasm in an aside to someone else being attacked for failure to agree with the dominant POV it merely proves that THIS is where “free speech for me, but not for thee” reigns supreme.
Second, as to the point about my ignoring answers because I don’t like them, you offer a link back to the posting with the FOX edited (and distorted) clip that includes a tiny snippet from the exchange between Joe and Obama looped along with another looped snippet from an Obama stump speech after the debate and the SNOB poster. I suggested in my very first comment on this topic that if one is going to attack how Obama (supposedly) dismissed Joe it would be more reasonable to look at the ACTUAL ENTIRE EXCHANGE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA I hardly think this is unreasonable or troll-like behavior.
Moving on (pun semi-intentional)
Can anyone answer the question of why the government regulations, subsidies and tax policies promoted by Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton (to a lesser extent) and most dramatically by Bush 43 (including the current financial sector bailout) that have so effectively redistributed wealth upwards are fine, while anything government does that redistributes wealth more equitably is terrible? If the issue is “redistribution of wealth” we’ve had that ever since we opted for an income tax. For decades it has been used for class war … with the elite winning. Or is it only when the working and middle class get tax relief while the wealthy are expected to increase their contribution that a problem arises?
There are lefty nutters who have brought up McCain’s status as an American because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. I think this is absurd nonsense. As there are those who want the son of a single Mom from Kansas born in Hawaii to prove he’s an American citizen. This is more absurd nonsense. These are nonsensical distractions from anything substantive.
As for the whole ACORN flap, talk about tempest in a teacup. ACORN is an admittedly liberal community action group advocating for issues that have an effect on poor and working class neighborhoods. One aspect of this is ACORN tries to get people in those communities to register to vote. They use paid workers to accomplish this which means some of these workers take the easy way out and don’t actually do the job, but fill out forms with names drawn from any number of sources. ACORN itself flags these bogus names, which is where much the information about it occurring originates. If ACORN were conspiring with operatives to actually try to get bogus names on the rolls and then stuffing the ballot box with fraudulent voters using these fake registrations THAT would be a blow to the sanctity of the ballot. BUT THIS IS NOT HAPPENING!
Aggressive searching for voter fraud of this nature, not only by ACORN, has resulted in something like 150 documented cases over a couple of years, hardly a threat to democracy. Now, shall we talk about the purging of thousands of legally registered voters by partisan Republican official in Florida and Ohio and … and … and … ?
As for ” their instinctive rage to suppress every dissent voice” look in the mirror guys.
Chris White:
If you’re not a troll or an astroturfer, stop acting like it.
Stay on topic. Respect your host. How about a chuckle now and again?
Chris, nice defense of the Obama campaign — except that the rest of us have actually been talking about the behavior of Democrats and the Left in general, and not specifically about the Obama campaign. That is, of course, with one exception, which would be the tape that Neo posted of Mr. Obama himself, not only failing to denounce the actions of his followers, but mocking and belittling Mr. Wurzlebacher all on his own. Dance around it all you want, but all over the country, people who once would have been sure Democratic voters have taken note, not only of the original Obama remark about sharing the wealth that started all the ruckus, but of the behavior of the man and his party ever since.
Here, Chris, copy and paste.
http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/13/rules-of-the-blog/
Chris White: I made very clear what your troll-like behavior was. It was the quote I offered from your previous post, not the arguments you have mounted.
I will fix the link to my post.
You have absolutely no idea how many people I have banned, and whether they are all from the Left or whether some are from the Right. I have banned both kinds. I almost never publicize who I am banning. There are many comments here that I manage to find almost the moment they are posted and they are erased (and the commenters banned) before more than a couple of people see them. They are offensive because of their language and/or their sentiments. Do not assume you know what’s happening in that regard by the small number of cases that are public. I have gone out of my way to explain to you what is bothersome about your recent comments, and have never stopped you from posting here so far. What I have done is warn you what is troll behavior and what is not.
Obama did not diss Joe at all in his original exchange with him, nor have I (nor anyone of whom I’m aware) alleged that he has. He dissed him in a speech, later. I posted the link before, but I will post it again here.
Chris, you obviously do not get it. The purpose of taxation never was wealth redistribution, but funding of vital government and community services that can not or should not be done on commercial basis without intolerable conflict of interest – army, police, courts and so on. Would you like to pay in cash from your pocket to police officer, fire fighter, judge? May be, you would, but this will be indistinguishable from a bribe and so unfit for civilized nation (in Third World countries, and sometimes in Russia, they do exactly this). What can be done on commercial basis (health service or education, for example) without conflict of interest, better to do commercially (less costly and with better quality). Everything else, including redistribution of wealth, is SOCIALISM and always ends with government bankruptcy or economic stagnation.
@ copithorne:
I expected someone could find some ‘attacks’ on Joe the Plumber. But as of yet in this thread, no one has been able to document a single one. So, what’s really making you angry?
This attack on a female McCain volunteer makes ME angry. What about you?
Chris White:
I guess the “attack” has been identified.
Barack Obama asked “How many plumbers do you know who make $250,000 a year?” And this is interpreted as an “attack” on Joe the Plumber. This is what makes neo-con angrier than anything else in the campaign.
My answer to the question is: none. I don’t know any plumbers making over $250,000 a year.
There’s also some concern about journalists looking into Joe’s life. It’s hard for me to assess whether this coverage is newsworthy or relevant or unwelcome by Joe. I guess journalists are uniformly identified here as “the left.”
For me, I can get angry about 4,100 of my fellow citizens being killed. I can get angry about 30,000 of my fellow citizens being maimed and wounded. I can get angry about five trillion dollars being stolen from future generations. I can get angry about my country torturing people.
So for me, getting angry about asking “how many plumbers do you know who make $250,000 a year” comes across as misplaced. It comes across as probably not being rooted in self awareness of what is causing this experience of anger and injury.
Durnit, I screwed up the blockquote thingy again. Only the first paragraph should be quoted.
Chris White,
Do you honestly not realize the difference between wealth being redistributed upward rather than downward?
I’m no economist but I know that I never got a job from a poor person. Similarly when business, and yes the wealthy, get tax breaks they buy things, grow their businesses, and the whole economic pie for everyone grows. Compare our poor to the poor elsewhere.
The evidence is everywhere. You know ‘a rising tide raises all boats” and all that. -an unapolagetic CAPITALIST
Neo — This is your blog and you certainly have every right and obligation (to yourself if to no other agency or power) to maintain decorum and mutual respect to the level you find appropriate. I make every effort to be respectful, but I also take my cues for what is acceptable from the tone and content of the comments I read here. What puzzles and saddens me is that you seem to allow those whose views are closer to your own far greater leeway.
You put me on notice that I may be approaching the line for my admittedly somewhat snippy crack, a crack that coincidentally was noting the lack of respect commonly shown here to those who fail to agree with the dominant rightist viewpoint. To date I have not seen any similar cautions to those whose views are rightist. Now, that may well have taken place, or those comments were so quickly removed that I missed them, but nevertheless the available evidence suggests greater latitude is allowed those on the right. My being cautioned for what I still consider a rather mild lapse is moreover on the same thread where, for example, at least three comments have included references that strongly infer armed rebellion or assassination as an answer to election results they don’t like; a nearly endless series of insulting and demeaning variations on Obama’s name; and gross exaggerations like “Joe managed to get Obama to admit he’s a Marxist.”
I stopped commenting here with any regularity (although I have continued to skim the blog regular basis) because there seems so little actual desire to engage in real debate or to accept that those whose views are more liberal have any validity whatsoever. Whenever I see a comment from someone with a more liberal POV the responses almost always devolve quickly to name calling, insults, or accusations against whomever has the temerity to disagree with the dominant group here must be part of some Fifth Column directed from beyond the grave by Stalin or some similarly ill mannered and insulting rebuttal. This hardly inspires confidence that all guests here are treated with equal fairness and consideration.
Sergey — Believing as I do that education, for example, is a vital national interest with implications for our economic well being as well as our security I think government has a role to play in education. I would make a similar case for health care. And, again, since we use taxes along with a variety of other means to fund these and other programs; and since tax credits, subsidies and regulations are employed to further various interests; and, finally, since the actual result of the approach taken to these areas over the past three decades, and especially under the Bush 43 administration, has been a dramatic redistribution of wealth upwards, I find suggestions that the uppermost 5% pay a greater share by eliminating some of the breaks they got under Bush 43 far from SOCIALISM as you shout it out. And given that these same pressures for deregulation, lax oversight, and lowered taxes have brought us as close as we currently are to “government bankruptcy or economic stagnation” I see greater risks in continuing to follow the mutant variation of the “free market” approach known as Trickle Down than I do in asking the top 5% to contribute more to the society in which they’ve prospered so much,
copithorne: Either you fail to understand what people are saying (not to mention what Obama actually said about Joe and McCain), or you are purposely pretending to misunderstand.
Let me spell it out for you. There are two points. The first one is that the mockery of Joe in the linked video was when Obama said McCain was fighting for a plumber. Look at him and listen to him—not just his words but his demeanor and his tone of voice.
The second point is that Joe never said he would personally make $250,000 if he bought the plumbing business of his dreams. He said the business made it. I have very little doubt that there are some plumbing businesses that make not only that but more than that, especially if they employ several workers (which many of them do). Why is that so difficult to believe? I can remember back to a time when there were jokes about not going to college and majoring in liberal arts, but instead going into the plumbing business if you really wanted to make money.
Chris White: I have warned and/or removed comments from people on the Right. Just because you haven’t seen them does not mean it hasn’t happened.
For that matter, you probably have not seen me give many warnings to people on the Left, either. The point is that I rarely give a warning. I ordinarily simply remove the comment and ban the person without a warning. There are way too many trolls to bother warning everyone.
I also do not have time to read every single comment here, so it’s certainly possible that I miss certain problematic comments.
And the reason you may see a greater tolerance here for those who happen to agree with my viewpoints is that they tend to not write things that insult me. I have the least tolerance for people who come in here and call me a liar, or curse at me, or accuse me of routinely banning those who merely disagree with me. I do not. But the fact that I allow people a forum in the comments section here does not mean I have to give them a license to insult me.
My last comment on this particular thread:
1. Concerning credible statistics and honest representation of the voter registration fraud issue, see, again, the following link to a PJ Media entry: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-complete-guide-to-acorn-voter-fraud/2/
2. The birth certificate issue is only nonsense unless it continues to be stonewalled, especially since the initial one posted on the Obama campaign site has been demonstrated to have a strong probability of having been “doctored”. This is an issue that is too easy to clear up, unless it is in fact an attempt at fraud. If the stonewalling is simply gaming to mock the “right wing”, as though this was tantamount to nothing more than a drivers racial profiling incident, then so much for “bringing us together”. It’s too easy to solve, and too important too ignore, on principle, under the circumstances.
Now, as for REAL underlying topic, Obama’s tax position, the idea that his proposals for tweaking the tax codes to reduce taxes for better than 80% of wage earners while increasing the rates for the top 5% proves Obama is a Marxist
Darn it, an unclosed blockquote.
If there was some credible evidence that Obama was not born in the U.S. as defined by candidate qualifications then it would be pursued more rigorously, as it is now it’s just a rumor.
Q: What if it turns up that Obama wasn’t born in the U.S. (or Territories) and becomes President — is this grounds for Impeachment?
From one perspective Obama’s comment about “McCain is fighting for a plumber with a dismissive tone can be heard as Obama mocking Joe and his concerns. A different interpretation is that Obama was mocking McCain’s credibility, given his history and policy proposals, as the champion of the working class. The line in this clip may be slightly ambiguous, but I hear it clearly as a jab at McCain for seeking to appear as the champion of the little guy rather than the vested interests of the elite and not a dig at Joe.
Now, many here disagree and think he was mocking Joe, but I see no compelling evidence (heck, I see no evidence whatsoever) that that opinion is objective truth rather than simply one side’s interpretation. In a campaign where cracks like “that one” and refused handshakes and “pallin’ around with terrorists” and “waving the white flag of surrender” are regular features of the McCain Palin stump repertoire Obama hardly comes off as being somehow out of bounds in his demeanor or tone of voice relative to his opponent.
Similarly I hear Obama’s comment about plumbers earning over $250,000 as being aimed, again, at McCain and McCain’s distortion both of Joe’s situation and Obama’s tax policies. Given that the average plumber makes roughly a little less than $50,000 I took it that he was attacking the inference from the McCain camp that Obama would be raising taxes on plumbers. Again, others may disagree with my interpretation, but have not offered any objective facts that support their view; they simply dismiss any other interpretation. This is ultimately a faith-based argument. You either believe Obama is mocking and dismissing Joe or you don’t. I don’t. I believe he is questioning McCain’s support for the little guy.
And, unless someone has evidence that Obama’s mother was not, in fact, his mother he could have been born in Moscow or Cairo and he would remain an American citizen. This is a non-issue.
nyomythus Says:
“but to be fair the Religious Right accept no dissension either.”
In my experience they do. I’m a conservative but I don’t think first trimester abortion should be illegal (and/or is murder). I’ve explained my thoughts to religious conservatives many times and never had a problem / it never changed my relationships with them. Now tell a lefty your not for all their pet issues… ahem..
Chris White,
Your “nuance” is so nuancy. Silly me, when The One said in a mocking tone and in plain English that Senator McCain was defending a “plumber, ” my benighted red state soul assumed that he was mocking Joe the Plumber.
Now granted, Senator Obama may have a reservoir of anger stored up against plumbers. Perhaps, his Hyde Park manse had plumbing problems that Tony Rezko couldn’t fix. Perhaps, Bill Ayers didn’t have a plunger at the essential moment–that’s the guy who lives in his neighborhood.
But I submit that Senator Obama openly mocked a regular guy, a guy playing football with his kiddo on his own front lawn, until the One deemed him worthy–for trashing that is.
copithorne Says:
“My answer to the question is: none. I don’t know any plumbers making over $250,000 a year.”
Do you actually know any? I do and they can make that much. Especially if they’re running a business with others working for them… which is common in the field (the whole master & apprentice thing / in trade work you go to work for someone who knows more and they guide and teach you)…. Some do more than just plumbing (full general contractors) but you can make that much just with plumbing and I do know people who only do it and make a lot of money… of course, part of it requires moving to an area that requires your work. Like an area with a lot of 80 something year old houses that need new pipes…
Perfected democrat Says:
“2. The birth certificate issue is only nonsense unless it continues to be stonewalled,”
The factcheck.org people say they’ve seen it. The origional / not a copy. Were allowed to photo it, handle it, et cetera. So, I don’t think that one is going anywhere.
I say “poe-tay-toe”; you say “pah-tah-tow”; let’s call the whole thing off. You hear a dig at Joe the Plumber; I hear a dig at McCain. The last time I checked Obama was running against McCain, not against Joe Wurzelbacher, so I’ll stick with my interpretation.
ACORN has done a bad job with their voter registration drives, granted. Still, only an infinitesimally small number of cases have been found where actual voting fraud has been reported and found credible. And voter registration is only a small part of what ACORN does. Republican operatives, including state and party officials, have aggressively worked to suppress voters with phone and leaflet campaigns designed to convince people to not cast a ballot, purged the names of many voters from the registration lists and more. If one is of the opinion, as I am, that more eligible citizens becoming registered and voting is fundamentally a good thing then the former seems the lesser problem than the latter. If one believes only those citizens who have proven themselves above the masses in some way should vote it would seem the more significant problem. And, while ACORN may be generally more sympathetic to Democrats, it is an independent entity. The fact that the Republican Party has engaged in voter suppression is more problematic.
So, to understand, the “attack” is not to be found in Obama’s words, but it is found in the tone of voice you heard in Obama’s use of the word “plumber.”
If you were to just read Obama’s words, it would not be an attack. But there was something you heard in the tone and that something made you angry — more angry than anything else in the campaign this year.
I did not hear the same thing when I listened to the clip you supplied. I did not hear a tone of disdain directed to Joe. We don’t seem to be talking about something that could be debated objectively.
One of the opportunities I see in Obama’s candidacy — that was laid out most effectively in his speech on race — is Obama’s insight into the appeal of being a victim and being outraged. This is the political system as it has been working — a failure. Both sides can end up competing over who is the bigger victim. The opportunity of Obama’s candidacy is that we can step beyond that in order to work on solving problems together. That’s our goal, together.
Obviously, we aren’t going to get everyone. Being a victim and being outraged has its own appeal. It’s probably the first thing we reach for when we feel powerless. But where we are headed is to have people feel empowered to solve our problems together.
See this about factcheck.org
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2092846/posts
Annenberg money funding them? Hmmmmm
Not one contributor from the other side in this discussion – NOT ONE – has owned up to and acknowledged the utter immorality of what the media and Obama operatives have done to this private citizen.
It’s the Marxist/Leninist ethics of expediency. No regrets. Whatever it takes to discredit anything the other side does and excuse the sins of your own side.
Part of Neo’s original point was that this reveals a lot about who is about to take power and how they will wield it against the rest of us. They get away with it and many will not at all be troubled by it because they are shaped by the post-modernism, cultural Marxism that they imbibed during their formative and educational experience. If we as a people cannot name this accurately and expunge its corrosive influence over our lives, then down into the wages of perdition and disaster we go.
SteveH Says:
“See this about factcheck.org”
A: I know they’re not really objective and they lean left.
B: I think they try to be fair and are not liars.
Concerning Phillip Berg’s lawsuit, see this site:
http://www.americasright.com/2008/08/obama-sued-in-philadelphia-federal.html
And additional background:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72656
Since there is additional controversy about factcheck.org and it’s ties to the Annenberg Foundation, I’ll only be satisfied with the outcome on this particular legal issue once a qualified court has provided a proper ruling.
In any case, note the ending of the WND entry: “Obama’s registration in Indonesia under the name “Barry Soetoro” also raises questions as to whether he adopted that name in the U.S. at any time. According to Illinois state filings, when Obama registered as an attorney in 1991, under the name Barack Obama, he stated he did not have any former names.”
While this may not disqualify him, for two people aspiring to the highest offices in this country, Obama and Biden both have extended histories with incidents of getting a little too loose with the truth…
Copithorne, your problem is that the media have demonstrably operated as agents of the Obama campaign for a long time. I don’t doubt that you will deny that statement; but you won’t convince anyone here–and given time, space and inclination any of us could cite volumes of evidence to support my assertion.
Therefore, when the media immediately goes into its feeding frenzy targeted at a Sarah Palin or a Joe Plumber, it is not irrational to believe that they are operating as surrogates for the Obama campaign.
Then, if Obama does not publicly rebuke their activity and ask them to desist, as McCain has done with surrogates, it is reasonable to conclude that he approves.
That is the essence of this whole thread.
I did not hear the same thing when I listened to the clip you supplied. I did not hear a tone of disdain directed to Joe.
What you’re describing, Copithorne, is called a tin ear.
Darn, I meant to do something more constructive with the rest of this evening, but you all know how one thing leads to another… like this fun one concerning Obama’s veracity challenged character/mental “condition”:
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=2907
Oldflyer: you are absolutely correct that the press has operated as Obama’s agents for a long time. Long before this campaign, actually. A good argument could be made for the fact that Obama’s political career has depended on it. See this (scroll down to the sixth paragraph in Part III).
Here’s the quote (and remember, this is from the New York Times):
Axelrod is known for operating in this gray area, part idealist, part hired muscle. It is difficult to discuss Axelrod in certain circles in Chicago without the matter of the Blair Hull divorce papers coming up. As the 2004 Senate primary neared, it was clear that it was a contest between two people: the millionaire liberal, Hull, who was leading in the polls, and Obama, who had built an impressive grass-roots campaign. About a month before the vote, The Chicago Tribune revealed, near the bottom of a long profile of Hull, that during a divorce proceeding, Hull’s second wife filed for an order of protection. In the following few days, the matter erupted into a full-fledged scandal that ended up destroying the Hull campaign and handing Obama an easy primary victory. The Tribune reporter who wrote the original piece later acknowledged in print that the Obama camp had “worked aggressively behind the scenes” to push the story. But there are those in Chicago who believe that Axelrod had an even more significant role – that he leaked the initial story.
I don’t know about a quarter million in income.
But the last time I had a plumber/air conditioning guy at the house, we talked some about his horses. He and his daughter ride both western and dressage.
My wife and I make considerably more than average, combined, but could not conceivably afford to keep and train horses.
The other person I know who is big into horses is an orthopedic surgeon.
I can see that there are powerful beliefs that the media is an instrument of “the left.”
I can only assert what appears to me self evident — that Barack Obama and his supporters do not have responsibility for or control over the news media.
My understanding is that the belief that they do have such power and responsibility is a paranoid belief. People who cling to this belief will find themselves progressively marginalized both as a matter of political power and in their experience of their relationship to the country.
copithorne:
I can only assert what appears to me self evident – that Barack Obama and his supporters do not have responsibility for or control over the news media.
The issue is as follows: has the mainstream news media been objective, has it been balanced in its treatment of the two candidates ?
copithorne Says:
“I can only assert what appears to me self evident – that Barack Obama and his supporters do not have responsibility for or control over the news media.”
Of course that is true. But the fact that they’re all democrats and pretty much see the world from a somewhat similar point of view doesn’t hurt.
I visited my uncle recently at his cottage on a lake shore. My brother and I sat on the float counting the sailboats and power boats and kayaks and jet skis lined up along the shore at the cottages on either side — beautifully outfitted places that neither my brother nor I, both of us reasonably well-paid white-collar types, could possibly afford. In one: an electrician. In the other: a plumber.
Copithorne, it’s not a question of control, it’s a question of collaboration. Nobody has to make the media do anything; they are eager lap dogs. Responsibility is another story. Obama could call off the dogs at any time, just by opening his mouth. Do you know how my respect for him would have risen if, at any point during the past few days, he had actually behaved like a leader, stood up, and said, “Hey, leave the guy alone! I want voters to be able to ask me questions. He didn’t do anything wrong. Back off.” It hasn’t happened, and it won’t.
As for marginalization — that’s happening much faster to the news media than to any of the other constituencies you’ve mentioned. The networks and the newspapers are losing watchers and readers proportionately with their hemorrhaging loss of credibility as they increasingly abandon their independence and their pride.
copithorne: of course Obama and his associates have no control over the media. They don’t have to; the vast majority of journalists are supporters, and have abandoned even a pretense of objectivity. Think Rathergate and you’ve got one of the more egregious examples, or the thrill up Chris Matthews’ leg.
If you read my piece “A mind is a difficult thing to change,” you will see how I never thought the media was biased until I experienced it over and over when comparing their reporting to original sources. I was dragged kicking and screaming (metaphorically speaking) from my liberal faith in the unbiased media to a realization that the media is profoundly biased. And I came to this realization when I still identified myself as a liberal Democrat. I have documented and described this process in great detail in my series and in many posts on this blog, especially under the category “Press.”
In addition, pressure is sometimes brought to bear on the MSM by liberal politicians. Did you read the link I provided at 9:29 PM, about what happened in the case of Obama’s competitor Hull?
It may be comforting to you to think someone who believes the media is biased towards liberals is paranoid. I certainly used to think so. But I learned from bitter and repeated experience that it is not paranoia at all, it is simply truth.
Neo, my sympathies on the Sox.
mrs whatsit: thanks. If I weren’t a Sox fan, I’d have been rooting for the Rays, because it’s so exciting for them to win. I will probably pull for them in the World Series. It’s such a luxury for a Sox fan to feel it’s not that dreadful to be eliminated, because we’re a dynasty now!
Although Obama has made millions from his two autobiographical books, “Dreams From My Father” and “The Audacity of Hope,” it is obvious that MSM is never going to do anything other than fawn and ask no questions, and few people have actually read these works, for if they did, Obama would have “a whole lot of ‘splainin to do.”
As an addendum to my earlier post, it might be instructive to see just what kind of “advice” and wisdom Frank imparted to Obama as they drank Frank’s whiskey together.
Obama was thinking about going to college, so he asked his mentor what he thought.
Said Frank, according to Obama’s “Dreams”:
Going to a university was “getting an advanced degree in compromise”
“Leaving your race at the door. Leaving your people behind. …Understand something, boy. You’re not going to college to get educated. You’re going there to get trained. They’ll train you to want what you don’t need. They’ll train you to manipulate words so they don’t mean anything anymore. They’ll train you so you forget what it is you already know. They’ll train you so good that you’ll start believing what they tell you about equal opportunity and the American way and all that shit. They’ll give you a corner office and invite you to fancy dinners and tell you you’re are a credit to your race. Until you want to actually start running things and then they’ll yank on your chain and let you know you may be a well-trained, well-paid nigger, but you’re a nigger just the same.” (p.97)
“Black people have a reason to hate.” (p.91)
Charming.
Frank Marshall Davis was a vile pedophile and pornographer, as well as a Communist supporter of Stalin. Part of me feels sorry for young Barry that his grandfather foisted this disreputable chap on him as a mentor.
Neo,
I think the Red Sox had a great run this year, considering all of the injuries they sustained. Plus, players who did not hit well. The pitching was in and out. Terry Francona did a masterful job managing this team. He really did. But a lot of people might not see that.
And now one can plug into the Bruins and enjoy this young team that is beginning to grow. I am excited about the future of the Bruins and I think they are in good hands. A LOT of talent in the pipeline.
And that’s why I am optimistic about the Sox long-term. They too have a lot of talent in the pipeline as Theo Epstein and his staff build this organization to compete for many years to come.
Chris White,
And when the fraudulent registrants do not appear, their absence can be used to make a claim of voter suppression. When GOPer warn people that voting twice or voting on fraudulent registration is a serious crime, they are accused of voter suppression.
Either way, confidence in the election is undermined, and with it the fundamental legitimacy of representative government.
Claiming that ACORN’s fraudulent voter registrations aren’t a problem because most of the fake people won’t actually vote is a lot like claiming that driving drunk isn’t a problem because most drunk drivers manage to get home without killing anybody.
Poe-tay-toe. Pah-tah-tow.
Over the past decade a significant number of news reports, commissioned government studies and court cases have found repeated cases of voter suppression, nearly all by Republicans. One critical example was when (two years after the fact) Florida determined that Katherine Harris had “erred” in purging over 57,000 voters (most African-American and thus presumed more likely to vote for Democrats) from the registration lists thus denying tens of thousands the right to vote in the critical 2000 election. While this is but one example, many others can be cited. In nearly every case it has been part of a Republican strategy, carried out by elected officials abusing their positions, to advance the interests of their party by subverting the right of citizens to freely vote. All told hundreds of thousands of voters have been affected by this strategy.
ACORN voter registration efforts have regularly resulted in fraudulent registrations being submitted although ACORN flags many of these themselves and most are caught before the names enter the registration lists. In the past two years, throughout the entire country, there have been roughly 150 confirmed cases of votes cast due to fraudulent registrations. For Republicans to make this a cause given their record for voter suppression is, at best, myopic and, at worst, hubristic cynicism on grand scale.
If the issue is to allow free and fair elections with as many citizens who wish to vote being given every opportunity to become registered and cast ballots, then one should not only demand scrupulous review of new registrations (especially those submitted by ACORN) but also demand that suppression efforts cease because these are the greater and most wide spread voting abuses taking place.
If, however, the issue were simply to win elections by any means available, fair or foul, I’d say the Republicans have done a far better job in the election fraud department to assure their victories than the Democrats.
And, as a final point, please note that I have never belonged to a political party and believe both major parties to be creatures of the same elite, serving the interests of global big business rather the American people.
An Obama representative said on Fox, “The McCain campaign did not correctly vet Joe Wurzelbacher.” He was right. Neither has the right-wing cabal of the blogosphere.
Well I have flushed out the truth and it stinks to high heaven.
Dr. Lumplevin
Dear Dr. Lumplevin: Take a look at my post for today.
From a card-carrying member of the right-wing cabal.
Neo, I thought of you as I watched your beloved Sox go down last night. Good on yer for cheering on TB; if your local team is American League then I think you should follow the league all the way to the end, despite the designated hitter rule. I live near Dallas so my team is the Rangers (oh, the shame!) and I don’t think I’ll live long enough to see them in the Series.
Black Sox Dynasty. I like the sound of that!
Now, about your thread: You don’t usually get this much action from trolls. Maybe they’re restless. This business with Joe the Plumber has gotten a lot of them stirred up. I regard that as evidence of Joe’s impact.
Finally, the press doesn’t have to ask what the Obama campaign wants them to do any more than my dog has to ask whether I want her to accompany me for a walk, and for much the same reason. Perhaps I’ll name my next dog “Press.”
There are a few “trueisms” that occur to me.
1. Democrats (since 1960) have been liberal.
2. Extreme liberal democrats have taken over the perty.
3. Democrats have always voted cemataries, bums and nuts. Cemataries are free, bums and nuts cost $10.00 and a bottle of ripple.
4. Obama is NOT a Democrat. He is a Socialist hiding behind the liberal curtain/
5. Read his (Ayers) books. It’s all there
I lost all respect for Mickey Kaus when not long after Palin was announced to be the VP nominee, he took a cheap shot at Trig.
To clarify: to the extent that the press has treated him unfairly, I sympathize with Joe the Plumber. I have absolutely no sympathy for those conservative bloggers and others who boil with outrage over what the “press” has supposedly done to Joe; not unless they denounced what Michelle Malkin did to the Frost family.
I have no sympathy for people who like the law of the jungle just fine until they find that they don’t always get to be the lion.
C knows exactly or almost exactly who attacked Joe the P. Just as they know almost exactly what the IRS is doing in 2011. They feign ignorance because it pleases them to step on the ants, what the rest of us call “America” and “Americans”. They like it.