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	<title>Comments on: Jonestown reflections: 30 years later</title>
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		<title>By: Celtic Tattoos For Men</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-305249</link>
		<dc:creator>Celtic Tattoos For Men</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2012 22:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-305249</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Celtic Tattoos For Men...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...]neo-neocon &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Jonestown reflections: 30 years later[...]...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Celtic Tattoos For Men&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...]neo-neocon &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; Jonestown reflections: 30 years later[...]&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tresa Colaizzo</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-199671</link>
		<dc:creator>Tresa Colaizzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-199671</guid>
		<description>Once once more I think you compose something special! I wish you are going to create more and quickly , I adore transsexuals!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once once more I think you compose something special! I wish you are going to create more and quickly , I adore transsexuals!</p>
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		<title>By: Thom</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-152545</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-152545</guid>
		<description>Barbara, why are gay marriage supporters so against civil unions that would have all the legal ramifications as marriage? Doesn&#039;t the idea of marriage come from the Bible, I would think all the &#039;progressives&#039; would empty their stomach&#039;s contents at that term, not try to use it. I think they like to shove their ideals in conservatives&#039; faces, not actually provide the same benefits to gays. Sort of like progressives calling Bush Bushitler, but a while back a CNN &#039;reporter&#039; called a reference of Obama to Hitler offensive. Also calling Bush a chimp but being &#039;repulsed&#039; when someone call Michele Obama the same. You tell me, where do progressives get their morals and standards, seems you might have a bargain find, double standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barbara, why are gay marriage supporters so against civil unions that would have all the legal ramifications as marriage? Doesn&#8217;t the idea of marriage come from the Bible, I would think all the &#8216;progressives&#8217; would empty their stomach&#8217;s contents at that term, not try to use it. I think they like to shove their ideals in conservatives&#8217; faces, not actually provide the same benefits to gays. Sort of like progressives calling Bush Bushitler, but a while back a CNN &#8216;reporter&#8217; called a reference of Obama to Hitler offensive. Also calling Bush a chimp but being &#8216;repulsed&#8217; when someone call Michele Obama the same. You tell me, where do progressives get their morals and standards, seems you might have a bargain find, double standards.</p>
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		<title>By: Barbara</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93984</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93984</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read all the gay marriage posts completely, but I would still like to add a comment. I thought of this the other day: Why is this society so concerned about gay marriage, but so unconcerned about polygamy as practiced in such cults as FLDS? Isn&#039;t the practice of polygamy arguably much more damaging to both girls (who are married off at a young age, often before 16) and boys (who are booted out of the cult at a young age) than gay marriage of two consenting adults? If marriage is &quot;defined as between one man and one woman,&quot; why aren&#039;t all the anti-gay marriage people out there on the front lines trying to close down these polygamous cults? 

Just curious.

Oh, and a great post about Jonestown, btw. I&#039;m reading &lt;i&gt;Seductive Poison&lt;/i&gt; now; it&#039;s great, as you say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read all the gay marriage posts completely, but I would still like to add a comment. I thought of this the other day: Why is this society so concerned about gay marriage, but so unconcerned about polygamy as practiced in such cults as FLDS? Isn&#8217;t the practice of polygamy arguably much more damaging to both girls (who are married off at a young age, often before 16) and boys (who are booted out of the cult at a young age) than gay marriage of two consenting adults? If marriage is &#8220;defined as between one man and one woman,&#8221; why aren&#8217;t all the anti-gay marriage people out there on the front lines trying to close down these polygamous cults? </p>
<p>Just curious.</p>
<p>Oh, and a great post about Jonestown, btw. I&#8217;m reading <i>Seductive Poison</i> now; it&#8217;s great, as you say.</p>
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		<title>By: Hyman Rosen</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93895</link>
		<dc:creator>Hyman Rosen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93895</guid>
		<description>In fact, one of the strongest reasons for gay marriage is exactly to provide protection for inheritance from outside interlopers. In many cases, when one partner of a gay couple dies or is seriously ill, inheritance and medical decisions can be very difficult, especially when there are members of the deceased family who were hostile to the union.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact, one of the strongest reasons for gay marriage is exactly to provide protection for inheritance from outside interlopers. In many cases, when one partner of a gay couple dies or is seriously ill, inheritance and medical decisions can be very difficult, especially when there are members of the deceased family who were hostile to the union.</p>
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		<title>By: marymcl</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93783</link>
		<dc:creator>marymcl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93783</guid>
		<description>My problem with gay marriage is the way its proponents browbeat their way into any and every conversation as if the fate of the universe depended on everyone hearing what they have to say and agreeing to it RIGHT NOW. As I recall, this is where Andrew Sullivan fell into the void.

The subject was Jonestown, and I highly recommend to all the book &quot;Journey to Nowhere&quot; by the late Shiva Naipaul (brother to V.S.). It was published in 1981 and actually came out a year earlier in Britain with the title &quot;Black and White&quot;. It may be out of print - I know it was for a long time.  

Naipul went to Jonestown just after the massacre, and spent a year in the US researching the People&#039;s Temple, including interviews with survivors, defectors, and political associates of Jim Jones. He makes a good argument that there was far more to the rise and fall of the People&#039;s Temple than the usual stuff that&#039;s brought up about cults and charisma and mind control. Mainly it&#039;s a book about ideas and their consequences in the real world. It&#039;s partly about California and the flotsam of the 60&#039;s, but its also the only book I know of that talks about the Guyanese aspects of the story. Naipaul wrote eloquently, here and elsewhere, that the then-emerging Third World was as much a state of mind as anything else.  He died at 40 in 1985. Many times since 9/11 I&#039;ve wished his voice was still with us. 

(A slightly interesting aside - one of his contentions about the political and social legacy of the 60&#039;s is that &quot;aggressive introversions&quot; (namely feminism, environmentalism and - ahem - gay rights) climbed onto the coattails of the civil rights movement, co-opting its language and premises and ultimately trampling it underfoot.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My problem with gay marriage is the way its proponents browbeat their way into any and every conversation as if the fate of the universe depended on everyone hearing what they have to say and agreeing to it RIGHT NOW. As I recall, this is where Andrew Sullivan fell into the void.</p>
<p>The subject was Jonestown, and I highly recommend to all the book &#8220;Journey to Nowhere&#8221; by the late Shiva Naipaul (brother to V.S.). It was published in 1981 and actually came out a year earlier in Britain with the title &#8220;Black and White&#8221;. It may be out of print &#8211; I know it was for a long time.  </p>
<p>Naipul went to Jonestown just after the massacre, and spent a year in the US researching the People&#8217;s Temple, including interviews with survivors, defectors, and political associates of Jim Jones. He makes a good argument that there was far more to the rise and fall of the People&#8217;s Temple than the usual stuff that&#8217;s brought up about cults and charisma and mind control. Mainly it&#8217;s a book about ideas and their consequences in the real world. It&#8217;s partly about California and the flotsam of the 60&#8242;s, but its also the only book I know of that talks about the Guyanese aspects of the story. Naipaul wrote eloquently, here and elsewhere, that the then-emerging Third World was as much a state of mind as anything else.  He died at 40 in 1985. Many times since 9/11 I&#8217;ve wished his voice was still with us. </p>
<p>(A slightly interesting aside &#8211; one of his contentions about the political and social legacy of the 60&#8242;s is that &#8220;aggressive introversions&#8221; (namely feminism, environmentalism and &#8211; ahem &#8211; gay rights) climbed onto the coattails of the civil rights movement, co-opting its language and premises and ultimately trampling it underfoot.)</p>
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		<title>By: Lester Hunt</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93765</link>
		<dc:creator>Lester Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93765</guid>
		<description>Neo-neo:  This is one of the best things I have seen on the Jonestown horrors.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo-neo:  This is one of the best things I have seen on the Jonestown horrors.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: waltj</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93727</link>
		<dc:creator>waltj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 06:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93727</guid>
		<description>Meep:  What history are you talking about?  Not the history of the West since the Roman Republic, if not earlier, where one man-one woman marriage was the only type recognized under law.  Of course, men who could afford them had concubines, as they have always had, but only one wife.  In many European &quot;barbarian&quot; areas as well, monogamy was the preferred family structure.  Homosexual relationships were certainly not unknown, but nobody called this &quot;marriage&quot; at that time.  Christianity--monogamous from the start, derived as it was from the Judaism of the day--overlaid itself quite comfortably on this already-existing framework.  

The history of what used to be called the &quot;Orient&quot;, basically encompassing anything east of Constantinople (i.e., Istanbul), is of course far different, with Muslims, Chinese, Thais, Javanese, Hindus, and others having multiple wives who were legally recognized as such.  Culturally-distinct Japan went its own way, as the one man-one woman formula has been adhered to since ancient times, but most of Asia--and Africa as well--was polygamous.  Much of both remain so today, and not only among Muslims. Many are the Chinese and Thai men with &quot;minor&quot; wives, the term describing not their age, but their status, which provides for some rights in terms of support and inheritance, but places them behind &quot;primary wives&quot; and their children.  

The miscegenation laws you refer to are of relatively recent vintage, historically-speaking.  They were essentially unknown in Europe, and were adopted in this country, for the most part, after the Civil War.  Not all states enacted them, either.  By contrast, Spain and Portugal--Western nations both-- encouraged intermarriage in their American colonies. That&#039;s a big part of the reason why many Latin American countries are highly interracial (although it is also true that south of the border, a higher percentage of European blood usually equates to higher status).  

Historically-speaking, the purpose of marriage is NOT to enable two people who love each other to cohabit.  The &quot;love marriage&quot; is a recent, and very middle-class, innovation.  Prior to the &quot;modern age&quot;, beginning more or less with the Renaissance, serfs and impoverished commoners often did not bother marriage at all.  There was seldom any significant property to be inherited, and the &quot;common law&quot; would recognize a couple as married anyhow if they lived together for a prescribed length of time.  Among the nobility and wealthy commoners, marriage was regarded as too important to be left to the whims of infatuated youngsters.  Therefore, marriages were arranged that would unite, for example, wealthy but &quot;nouveau riche&quot; families with old, established ones, or down-at-the-heels but high-ranking nobles with lower-ranked but more successful ones.  In other words, more of an exercise in dynastic and commercial politics than anything to do with love.  But marriage also does more than this.  It provides a measure of security for women and children (even when regarded as &quot;property&quot;, they were the husband&#039;s property, and couldn&#039;t be taken from him without due process.  As imperfect, and unacceptable, to our modern thinking as this is, it is arguably better than being without any legal protection or status at all).  Marriage also provides for a clear line of inheritance, not so much from within the family, but from outside interlopers.  This provides for posterity, encourages stability, and gets men (mostly) to think about the future.  Does gay marriage serve either of these historical purposes?  Convince me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meep:  What history are you talking about?  Not the history of the West since the Roman Republic, if not earlier, where one man-one woman marriage was the only type recognized under law.  Of course, men who could afford them had concubines, as they have always had, but only one wife.  In many European &#8220;barbarian&#8221; areas as well, monogamy was the preferred family structure.  Homosexual relationships were certainly not unknown, but nobody called this &#8220;marriage&#8221; at that time.  Christianity&#8211;monogamous from the start, derived as it was from the Judaism of the day&#8211;overlaid itself quite comfortably on this already-existing framework.  </p>
<p>The history of what used to be called the &#8220;Orient&#8221;, basically encompassing anything east of Constantinople (i.e., Istanbul), is of course far different, with Muslims, Chinese, Thais, Javanese, Hindus, and others having multiple wives who were legally recognized as such.  Culturally-distinct Japan went its own way, as the one man-one woman formula has been adhered to since ancient times, but most of Asia&#8211;and Africa as well&#8211;was polygamous.  Much of both remain so today, and not only among Muslims. Many are the Chinese and Thai men with &#8220;minor&#8221; wives, the term describing not their age, but their status, which provides for some rights in terms of support and inheritance, but places them behind &#8220;primary wives&#8221; and their children.  </p>
<p>The miscegenation laws you refer to are of relatively recent vintage, historically-speaking.  They were essentially unknown in Europe, and were adopted in this country, for the most part, after the Civil War.  Not all states enacted them, either.  By contrast, Spain and Portugal&#8211;Western nations both&#8211; encouraged intermarriage in their American colonies. That&#8217;s a big part of the reason why many Latin American countries are highly interracial (although it is also true that south of the border, a higher percentage of European blood usually equates to higher status).  </p>
<p>Historically-speaking, the purpose of marriage is NOT to enable two people who love each other to cohabit.  The &#8220;love marriage&#8221; is a recent, and very middle-class, innovation.  Prior to the &#8220;modern age&#8221;, beginning more or less with the Renaissance, serfs and impoverished commoners often did not bother marriage at all.  There was seldom any significant property to be inherited, and the &#8220;common law&#8221; would recognize a couple as married anyhow if they lived together for a prescribed length of time.  Among the nobility and wealthy commoners, marriage was regarded as too important to be left to the whims of infatuated youngsters.  Therefore, marriages were arranged that would unite, for example, wealthy but &#8220;nouveau riche&#8221; families with old, established ones, or down-at-the-heels but high-ranking nobles with lower-ranked but more successful ones.  In other words, more of an exercise in dynastic and commercial politics than anything to do with love.  But marriage also does more than this.  It provides a measure of security for women and children (even when regarded as &#8220;property&#8221;, they were the husband&#8217;s property, and couldn&#8217;t be taken from him without due process.  As imperfect, and unacceptable, to our modern thinking as this is, it is arguably better than being without any legal protection or status at all).  Marriage also provides for a clear line of inheritance, not so much from within the family, but from outside interlopers.  This provides for posterity, encourages stability, and gets men (mostly) to think about the future.  Does gay marriage serve either of these historical purposes?  Convince me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ymarsakar</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93691</link>
		<dc:creator>Ymarsakar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93691</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;I agree. Gay activists are people. Human rights are ideas. Ideas are not people. You are smart!&lt;/b&gt;

You need a remedial class in logic for it also means that gay activists aren&#039;t working for human rights, period. Nice go with the strawman, low guy on the academic totem pole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>I agree. Gay activists are people. Human rights are ideas. Ideas are not people. You are smart!</b></p>
<p>You need a remedial class in logic for it also means that gay activists aren&#8217;t working for human rights, period. Nice go with the strawman, low guy on the academic totem pole.</p>
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		<title>By: sergey</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93637</link>
		<dc:creator>sergey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/11/18/jonestown-reflections-30-years-later/#comment-93637</guid>
		<description>&quot;human rights&quot; and &quot;equality&quot; memes were used in USA and Europe for several decades now to normalize any anomaly, societal and medical pathology existing in the world. Every fringe, dysfunctional subhuman scum now demands from others respect and recognition. Examples are really comical: a company advertized that it propose jobs for smart, ambitious and industrial contenders was sued by a human rights group for discrimination aganst lazy, stupid and unpretentious. Yesterday EU commission on mental health recomended to exclude fetishism and sado-masochism from the list of sexual pathologies and recognize them as &quot;alternative lifestyles&quot;. Barely literate schoolchildren &quot;have a right&quot; to get school-leaving certificate in order not to stigmatize them, and so on. Dumping down of all standards of achivement and public decency is now a vogue of progressive establishment worldwide, and it leads us to a really bad place to live in. That is why when I hear about a some newly invented human right, I remember Herman Herring&#039;s quote: &quot;When I hear about culture, I reach for my Lugger&quot;. I have not a Lugger (a hand gun), but methaphorically I do the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;human rights&#8221; and &#8220;equality&#8221; memes were used in USA and Europe for several decades now to normalize any anomaly, societal and medical pathology existing in the world. Every fringe, dysfunctional subhuman scum now demands from others respect and recognition. Examples are really comical: a company advertized that it propose jobs for smart, ambitious and industrial contenders was sued by a human rights group for discrimination aganst lazy, stupid and unpretentious. Yesterday EU commission on mental health recomended to exclude fetishism and sado-masochism from the list of sexual pathologies and recognize them as &#8220;alternative lifestyles&#8221;. Barely literate schoolchildren &#8220;have a right&#8221; to get school-leaving certificate in order not to stigmatize them, and so on. Dumping down of all standards of achivement and public decency is now a vogue of progressive establishment worldwide, and it leads us to a really bad place to live in. That is why when I hear about a some newly invented human right, I remember Herman Herring&#8217;s quote: &#8220;When I hear about culture, I reach for my Lugger&#8221;. I have not a Lugger (a hand gun), but methaphorically I do the same.</p>
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