November 28th, 2008

Mumbai terror

The terror in Mumbai angers me, but it doesn’t surprise. Any shock that this sort of thing can be planned and executed with such vicious intent went away long ago, on 9/11. Perhaps even before that.

We don’t have many details on exactly who is doing this and/or why, but it seems to involve Islamic terrorists. That’s always a good bet, of course. There’s also a long history of attacks in India from such groups, including a newer outfit that appears to be homegrown. Here’s a timeline.

In addition to the targeting of Americans, British, and Jews (one would imagine the latter are not so easy to find in India, but the terrorists have a will and so there’s a way), another difference between this attack and previous ones is the scope and scale of the present one. It is well-coordinated and involves multiple sites, and includes hostage-taking in addition to outright killings.

This underscores the tendency of terrorists to feel the need and the desire to escalate in order to get more and more attention. My guess is that these increasingly outrageous and deadly attacks also feed the terrorists in a personal and emotional way, making them feel bigger and badder and giving them a certain nihilistic glow.

If the aim was to capture the attention of the world, the Mumbai attack has already succeeded. It also promises the added potential benefit for the terrorists of striking a psychological and symbolic blow against India’s strong economy, seeking to discourage the boom in investment from overseas. The specificity of the targets indicate this goal, a resemblance to the apparent motivation for the attacks on the World Trade Center.

The Mumbai carnage also contains an extra message for President-elect Obama: don’t think there’s anything special about you or your election. For us, it’s business as usual—which is to disrupt your business, and that of your allies such as India.

The following photo seemed particularly touching to me, even though there is nothing overtly violent in it. The carnage is implied rather than shown:

mumbaistation.jpg

There’s something about those bags just lying around, abandoned by the people they belonged to, whose ordinary day was disrupted by a nihilim that seems to love violence for its own sake as well as whatever strategic aims were in mind. But in the middle of the photo, there is the image of kindness and the hoped-for restoration of civic law and order: the elderly man (slightly reminiscent of Gandhi) being helped to safety by a soldier.

64 Responses to “Mumbai terror”

  1. Rob De Witt Says:

    neo, your writing, and more importantly your thinking, is a beacon of clarity and hope. Thank you.

    Lest we forget: Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, 29, and his wife, Rivka, 28. Murdered by Muslim terrorists, 11/26/08. May they rest in the bosom of Abraham.

  2. vanderleun Says:

    I keep saying we need to move to Hama Rules, but nobody listens. Yet.

  3. Trimegistus Says:

    Islam cannot coexist with humanity.

  4. GeoPal Says:

    India is a natural target of the Muslims. They consider it their own, by right of the 330 year Moghul dynasty. Things will get worse before they get better. The list of the enemies of the “religion of peace” grows as does the dhimmitude that facilitates such attacks.

  5. Tim P Says:

    Neo,

    What is particularly disturbing about this attack, which is disturbing enough in itself, is that there seems to be substantial cooperation from the Pakistani intelligence services.

    If true, this could easily be construed as an act of war. War between two nuclear powers. I hope that the rumors of involvement by Pakistan’s intelligence services is incorrect.

    However unfortunate though, it seems that there may well have been involvement by them. Elements within Pakistan’s government, military and intelligence services have been sympathetic to Al Qaida and the Taliban in the past. Given the fact that Pakistan’s western tribal area which borders Afghanistan has been under tenuous government control, at best, it is a breeding ground for terrorist training and staging.

    I wonder if this might be that ‘test’ that Biden was talking about during the election?

  6. Bob W Says:

    Deadly terror attacks in the East, shopping stampedes in the west, and yet there is still reason to Hope this season, no?

    The actions taken by many of the hotel staff and guests to resist, and to help one another during the attacks in Mumbai, is something to take note of.

  7. Truth Says:

    Neo,

    These criminals looking for publicity and big attentions by western media.

    I still straggling of have seen the photos, letters audio / video by top criminals like OBL and his associates in the media western and Arabic one.

    I find it really insulting put these photos and all letters of such inhuman and savage Ba* to people to read and to hear these practise should stopped and those information only be used by intelligence agencies and other who may find useful information to capture and to target those savage killers.

    I still style to see OBL’s Son over the news and talking to media.

    The best way is those who involved in these terrorist acts inhuman should be looked up and brought to justices if that possible otherwise I believe their families should hold accountable to their sons action and should be detained so that these killer should surrender.

    This action proven works, by US in Iraq, Israelis, By Jordan’s, by many tyrant regimes in ME.

    Why let these criminals free while most of us suffering from their ruthless and savage minds.

    And those in Islamic world and those Mullah where are you why you keep silent about these acts where your Friday sermonises and what the doing, just praising for the tyrant regimes that responsibly of breading these beasts.

  8. Truth Says:

    Islam cannot coexist with humanity.

    This is very short sited and hatfull view.

    You need to point your finger to the right direction and in the right spot.

    There are two causes for these types of criminals who prepared and masterminds by two schools:

    A- Wahabisim Madrasa
    B- Mullah Khomeini Hussein

    These two Schools are most fanatics and hatful agencies to breed these killers and criminal.

    Islam as faith as Religions as same as other in this world you can simply come here put blindly your comments here.

  9. Trimegistus Says:

    Mr. Truth: you say that Islam is a religion “same as other in this world” — but there is one important difference.

    Jews do not attack skyscrapers causing 3,000 deaths in a single morning. Christians do not bomb resorts killing 200 people in an instant. Buddhists do not attack cities causing 300 deaths over three days. Hindus do not kidnap and massacre a dozen innocent athletes at the Olympics.

    You disagree with my statement that Islam and humanity are incompatible? Fine — prove me wrong!

    For seven years we have been saying that Muslims need to stop blaming the West or making excuses. Every new atrocity by Muslims is followed within minutes by new bleatings from Muslims that they are oppressed, they are victims of “Islamophobia” and bigotry. Bleatings like yours.

    Muslims need to put a stop to the crimes and murders being committed by their religion. If they can’t or won’t, the rest of the world WILL do it, and God help the Muslims.

  10. Ymarsakar Says:

    What T says about the various sects are true. However, this doesn’t really mean anything in terms of the response to Islam. Islam tolerates such sects because they are still around. Islam does not have the capability to police their own. Until they do acquire the capability to police themselves, they will have to be interfered with by outsiders. Which is problematic both for those living under Islam (except the downtrodden women), and problematic for foreigners like us.

  11. FredHjr Says:

    In yer face, “Truth.”

    ISLAM CANNOT COEXIST WITH HUMANITY.

    And I stand on a more full, accurate, and complete education about Islam than you do, by a long shot. So, stop your preening and your adolescent-level “moralizing” about how intolerant we are. Try 1,400 years of murdering over 270 million human beings for intolerance.

    You are truly an ass.

  12. Gray Says:

    We look for moderate muslims to speak out against this thing:

    “And those in Islamic world and those Mullah where are you why you keep silent about these acts where your Friday sermonises and what the doing, just praising for the tyrant regimes that responsibly of breading these beasts.”

    “Truth” spoke out against it, and I credit him for that.

    We need such people as allies to prevent and punish these atrocities.

    Thank you for that, Truth.

  13. Perfected democrat Says:

    Is it not obvious that the perception of a muslim communist posing as a Christian Democrat, ascending to the Office of the President of the United States of America, allowed to skirt the legal constitutional verification of natural born citizenship, after a campaign noted by unprecedented, orchestrated voter registration and campaign finance fraud, is the signal to the world jihad movement to step up the violence… Remember, our soon to be “President Elect” campaigned for Kenyan countryman and cousin Odinga, and when Odinga’s election was not immediately successful, it was license for the murder and burning of innocents, including women and children, in Christian churches. But then there is so much more to the story, how it came to be, how it is evolving, the complicity of the world left-wing alliance with the islamists, now I understand completely how the Shoah came to be…

  14. ag188 Says:

    I think that its important that we not politicize this issue or make it about religion. We’re yet to ascertain the number of people who have died across Mumbai on account of this heinous crime. We live two roads away from the taj mahal hotel in colaba and this was definitely one of the worst experiences of our lives… We were made to feel like hostages in our own homes. The place where i live is not the same lively, colourful place it used to be and i don’t know if we will ever be able to get back to the way it was.

    I think that today we should not be categorizing this into an act against a particular nationality or religion. Its about people across various spectrums of society whose lives have changed forever.

  15. Hong Says:

    I wonder if Islam truly is capable of coexisting with other religions and cultures or if it needs to be exterminated along with the majority of its believers. It certainly proven by these attacks that it is probably the most violent and intolerant faith ever created by man. And Muslims are far too eager to embrace a bovine ignorance and a medieval hate/stupidity towards the Other that surpasses the Nazis. We didn’t eradicate the Germans but forced them into democracy. How do we do the same with a billion sheep?

  16. neo-neocon Says:

    Hong: the majority of its believers are just fine. I know that Islam is a religion that seems to be more likely than others to be used by extremists to justify horrendous violence. But that does not justify exterminating Muslims wholesale. That is an abhorrent idea.

  17. Beverly Says:

    Here’s a little history, by way of DanielPipes.org.

    Will Durant, the famous historian, summed it up like this:

    “The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within.”

    Koenraad Elst, the German historian, writes in “Negation in India”:

    “The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindu skulls.

    “Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the ‘Hindu Kush,’ i.e., Hindu slaughter.

    “The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated. And so on.

    “As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention that the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between A.D. 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate).”

    Eighty million dead. Brought to you by the Religion of Peace[TM].

    “It’s the religion, stupid.”

  18. Beverly Says:

    Sorry, Neo. There are, of course, nice people born into that faith. But the faith itself is rotten at the core. And even the “moderates,” for the most part, silently accede to their brothers’ violence. Because it is what Islam commands: death to all “infidels.”

    Yes, it’s a horrible thing to face.

  19. Truth Says:

    Hatred can be overcome only by love.
    Mahatma Gandhi

  20. Truth Says:

    Because it is what Islam commands: death to all “infidels.”

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالصَّابِئِينَ وَالنَّصَارَى وَالْمَجُوسَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْصِلُ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

    Those who believe (in the Qur-an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

    Al-Hajj [22:17]

    نَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالنَّصَارَى وَالصَّابِئِينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

    Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    Al-Baqarah [2:62]

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالصَّابِئُونَ وَالنَّصَارَى مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا فَلا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

    Those who believe (in the Qur-an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness – on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    Al-Mâ’idah [5:69]

  21. Truth Says:

    قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنْـزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنْـزِلَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ لا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

    Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim, Isma’il, Ishaq, Ya’qub, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Musa, ‘Isa, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).”

    Al-’Imrân [3:84]

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَـزَّلَ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْـزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلالا بَعِيدًا

    O ye who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

    An-Nisâ’ [4:136]

  22. Truth Says:

    وَمَنْ يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِنًا مُتَعَمِّدًا فَجَزَاؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَالِدًا فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَابًا عَظِيمًا

    If a man kills a Believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (forever): and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

    An-Nisâ’ [4:93]

  23. douglas Says:

    On topic: That photo is Pulitzer material. Unfortunately, the award is so tarnished now, I feel bad calling it ‘Pulitzer worthy’.

  24. Perfected democrat Says:

    “I think that its important that we not politicize this issue or make it about religion… I think that today we should not be categorizing this into an act against a particular nationality or religion. Its about people across various spectrums of society whose lives have changed forever.”

    If you believe that you are completely missing the point being made by the perpetrators, and their obvious focus of victims as examples; Their point being that “we” will submit, or at least acquiesce to their political-theocratic authority or face execution, and this idea was started and practiced by no less than Mohammed himself.

    As Beverly well stated: “There are, of course, nice people born into that faith. But the faith itself is rotten at the core. And even the “moderates,” for the most part, silently accede to their brothers’ violence. Because it is what Islam commands: death to all “infidels.”

    Neo is quite correct in principle, “that does not justify exterminating Muslims wholesale. That is an abhorrent idea.” However, so was Hiroshima, and which saved untold tragedy and greater death probably several times over. The lives of Christians of all hues, as well as Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, gays, women, Americans, Israelis, Indians, ad infinitum have become too cheap, it’s coming time for a crusade… And considering the circumstances and ramifications, it needs to start with a moslem communist posing as a Christian Democrat coming clean with his Kenyan nationality, or legitimately proving otherwise…

  25. GeoPal Says:

    Islam is not a religion as we generally accept the term in the West. It is a way of life which encompasses deity/faith, daily social/cultural aspects, and political organization. There may be competing sects but they are all in it for much the same reason – submission under a Caliphate.

    Quoting from the Koran is a useless exercise whether the intent is to condemn Islam or defend it. The actions of Islam over more than a century and a half are what condemns it. Those same actions are also what makes Islam indefensible. If these people choose to live in that manner amongst themselves, in their own countries, then Allah be praised. If they choose to export Islam and impose it upon an “infidel” world then to hell with them.

  26. nyomythus Says:

    Islam cannot coexist with humanity.

    We must build bridges to moderate Islam if the extremist are ever to be extinguished, we are witnessing the global civil war between the moderates and the extremist, bringing death and destruction to the citizens of western ”Christianities” replenishes the extremist hordes, these bold attacks as commanded buy the holy books revive the adherents in intervals, and we must deliver a crushing and humiliating defeat to every interval, for how long? The time it would take to develop some moral collective conscious, hundreds, thousands of years?

  27. GeoPal Says:

    nyomythus, just where the hell is “moderate” Islam? Who are it’s leaders? Where is this Civil War between moderates and extremists?

  28. Truth Says:

    Quoting from the Koran is a useless exercise whether the intent is to condemn Islam or defend it.

    This is very laughable statement.

    How you call some Muslim without following the only holy book that instructs them?
    Is this group represents Islam? Alternatively, just for your convenience to use these term and statements.

    Anyway There is nothing with Islam as a religion as same as the Christianity and others religions.
    Muslims have a long way to through the dust that accumulated on them by adopting bad own cultures/ Customs which have nothing to do with the soul of Islamic faith and follow the rest of free world with open minds.

    Looks most comments driven by hate and lacks of accepting others due to some biased early learning in those Sunday Schools (Christian’s Madrasa) just like those Saudi Wahhabism, which, as an ideological trend, opposes the study of general and Islamic philosophy in the universities of Saudi Arabia? Which denies rationalism, moderation, and human intellect? This is because, according to them, it is “ haram” for a Muslim to think with his or her own head!

    Prove me wrong by giving us ONE verse from Koran telling Muslims not to study, read or to learn? Nevertheless, Saudi Wahhabism does this for obvious causes…

    Talking about history of any group of people, take western empires from the Spanish, portages then Dutch to French, Britons. These empires went to the New World killed millions inhabitants, went to Southeast Asia, went to South Pacific tell us what those empires done their?
    Tell us their history of wars how they expanded across the world, is by throwing followers on natives people or by sward and guns? If we go more deeper with The Wars of The Wars of Alexander the Great what was the human cost for those wars.

    The irony the biased minds of people looking in one directions of history forgot their very own history how bloody was.

    If they choose to export Islam and impose it upon an “infidel” world then to hell with them.
    Can any one tell us who are those Muslims come to you and asked you to be Islam otherwise will killing you? The opposite is occurring now …

    It is a way of life which encompasses deity/faith, daily social/cultural aspects, and political organization.

    What make them different from you? Do you pray when you set on the table for food?
    Did you pray when you go to sleep? Are Christian values driving you to teach your kids?

    What about your neighbour Jew, do they practise their faith? Do they pray? Do they prod of it?

    What are the differences?

    Its not the practice of faith should worry you, it is the mentality of some who “USING” faith to cover their sick minds.

  29. Hong Says:

    The apologists would have you believe Islam isn’t corrupt or fashioned for psychotic exploitation but there are no Mohamed Luthers are there? The many pro-terror demonstrations in the US and elsewhere revealed by bloggers show the true face of Islamic ‘tolerance’. Where are the equivalent Christian and Jewish picketers carrying signs calling for the deaths of nonbelievers or ‘infidels’ like Rushdie, Hirsi, or Van Goghs? Good luck finding one ‘Truth’ lol

  30. Richard Aubrey Says:

    It’s our fault. Some of us eat ham sandwiches where Muslims can see. There is the drink lid scandal.
    Seeing eye dogs in cabs oppress Muslims.
    It’s all our fault.

  31. Siva Says:

    The attack may not surprise anybody. The real body count should surprise every body. the official body count is around 190. But the actual body count is near 500 in Oberai hotel. This number was given out by the NSG but will never be released. In Taj count is more than 500, as per a Taj employee who happened to be alive. InTaj the terrorist killed the employees at point blank range. They started the operation by lobbing multiple granades in to restaturants packed with peaople then started firing randomly. Terrorists did not spare kids women elders. They did not take anybody hostage. Terrorists diverted the special forces attention by saying that they have hostage. The actual count will not come out. Otherwise there will be civil unrest because of the current governments inability to handle terror efficiently. Only the count of foreigners death will be actual. The real number of indians dead will be never be realeased. Similar thing happened in 1993 mumbai blast. The government released only lesser number of deaths. actually the number of people dead were much more than that. I wish with current media freedom the media should go for in depth investigation and release the actual number of deaths which the current government will never release. Hope sanity prevails and truth is not victimsed.

  32. Tim P Says:

    Truth, Hong & Beverly,

    In branding all muslims as terrorists and that is what you are doing when you state that the religion of Islam itself is incompatible with the rest of humanity, you make a serious mistake,both tactical and strategic.

    First, by your logic you now force millions of muslims who are not hostile to us to become our enemies because you have condemned them wholesale. Thanks for the mass mobilization.

    Are all Germans and Japanese equally guilty of the horrendous crimes committed by their troops during WWII? By extension of this short sighted and false logic, all Americans are guilty for the sins of slavery? Are you folks liberal democrats or what?

    Second, by condemning all muslims equally, we now loose the support of any allies we may have or be able to get. We can only win this conflict if we convince the other side that ours is the better system and has more to offer. Has our entire experience in Iraq been lost on you?

    Third, citing historical conflicts out of context proves nothing. So the moguls were blood thirsty barbarians. So were the Mongols under Ghengis Khan. You want carnage? Read up on the Taiping Rebellion in China in the mid-19th century. A toll of slaughter that was not matched until WWII. So would you also call for the eradication of the Mongols or the Chinese? Or the Germans and Japanese for that matter? How about southerners?

    Fourth, as stated above, by quoting the Koran (I’ll use the older spelling), you prove nothing. I can find equally damning quotes in the bible, especially when I take them out of context. Siting the scripture of any religion in an argument is just showing that you have no argument.

    The forces at play in the muslim world which are fanning the flames of terrorism, war and general upheaval are the same historical forces that have always been behind these evils. A rapidly growing population coupled with economic and stagnation and political oppression. Simplify that down to lots of unemployed young men who feel stifled and with nothing to live for or any chance of improving their lot. Ripe for recruitment by any fanatic who can promise something better and the recapture of ancient glory. Think that’s stupid, ask the Jonestown survivors.

    Demographics, economics and politics, not religion is behind the unrest. Religion is just the fulcrum to lever the unrest into violence. Look at the percentage of muslims who made up the world’s population in 1950 versus 2000. Look at the projections for their percentage by 2050.

    Any racial, ethnic tribal, or religious group, given the same conditions will react in a similar fashion and this has been shown historically to be the case.

    I’m sure that while many in Pakistan cheered this tragedy, even more regretted it. I’m also sure that fanning the flames of hatred and hoping to ignite a larger conflict is just what the terrorists want. Such evil thrives when the embers of hatred are glowing.

    While your anger and outrage is understood, you should not play so easily into the aims of the terrorists.

    Must we respond with violence? Yes, but directed violence that is aimed at the perpetrators and their supports system. The violence must be employed to destroy the terrorist’s will and capability to fight. However, violence alone will not solve the problem. Eradicating the root causes must go with it hand in hand.

  33. Tim P Says:

    Here’s a link to begin looking at muslim demographics.

    Also, you might want to read Steyn’s America Alone

    In my comment above, when I asked how do respond to violence, I didn’t mean the US, I meant the rest of the world.

  34. huxley Says:

    Islam is the only major religion whose founder was a warlord who personally oversaw the beheading of hundreds of male captives.

    Islam is the only major religion which has jihad–the military struggle on behalf of Islam–as a core doctrine.

    Islam is the only major religion whose main text, the Qur’an, contains sizeable sections devoted to the conduct of war, and the handling of booty and captives.

    No, Islam is not like other religions.

  35. Tim P Says:

    Ok Huxley,

    For argument’s sake let’s agree.
    Now what do you propose as a solution?
    Be specific. Just how do you propose to deal with terrorism? With militant Islamic fundamentalism?
    What actions do you recommend?

  36. huxley Says:

    Tim P — As it stands, Islam is a totalitarian, supremacist belief system. It just is.

    Islam means submission of the entire human race to the will of God, not as individuals might interpret that will, but as Muhammad and the Qur’an do.

    And all’s fair in bringing about that submission — including deception and violence. Read the Qur’an, read a biography of Muhammad.

    You are correct that it is impolitic to speak plainly about these matters in the hearing of Muslims. When the Pope mentioned the undeniable historical violence of Islam, Muslims rioted throughout the world and killed people.

    Yes, it’s a problem, a big problem. But pretending that it’s just an unfortunate coincidence that most of the terrorism in the world is driven by Islam is also a problem.

    I don’t think Muslims are bad people, but I do think they have a bad belief system.

    I’m optimistic that Islam will reform in this century to a tolerant version that can coexist with the rest of us. I’m not optimistic that this will happen peacefully.

  37. huxley Says:

    Tim P. — I don’t believe there is a specific solution to the challenge Islam presents. That does not invalidate what I say.

    Over time Islam will change.

    * We can encourage the liberalization and democratization of predominantly Muslim countries.
    * We can encourage the empowerment of Muslim women.
    * We can analyze and criticize Islam as thoroughly as Christianity has been.
    * We can respond forcefully to its violence.
    * We can be honest with ourselves that Islam, as it stands, forces us to make the choice between accepting subjugation to Islam, and the current Western paradigm that allows people of different beliefs to coexist.

  38. Ymarsakar Says:

    Islam, as a religion, is harmless. Islam combined with politics, which is the modern Islam as we know it and the ancient Islamic conquests in the past, are extraordinarily dangerous.

  39. Ymarsakar Says:

    We already know the evils of Big Government and centralized control over the many. Now imagine if the central government of America was run by religious fanatics and you will get an idea of what Islam is trying to become. In that sense, it doesn’t matter how many billions of Muslim want this as opposed to that. They want freedom but dictators are the ones that tell them what to do. The individual Muslims can want whatever they want.

    However, when the Sultans of the Caliphate commands war, war it will be.

  40. GeoPal Says:

    Truth, how convenient: “What make them different from you? Do you pray when you set on the table for food? Did you pray when you go to sleep? Are Christian values driving you to teach your kids?”

    Here’s what makes them different from me:
    I do not require young girls to be sexually mutilated (for what purpose that? Truth, explain it to me. Allah make a mistake when he created women?)

    I do not sell off 12 year old girls for the purpose of “marriage” to some 39 year old pervert.

    I do not insist my women drape themselves head to foot.

    I do not keep adolescent girls from escaping a burning building because they are not modestly dressed, causing a dozen of them to die in the fire.

    I do not have a police force which goes about checking on the dress and comportment of people in the public square.

    I do not cut off the heads of Jews and “infidels”.

    I do not call for a legal system based upon scripture or adjudicated by rabbis or priests.

    I do not call for fatwahs on those who insult me, or my religion.

    I do not go to a foreign country to live and demand the population change their culture, society, and traditions to suit my sensibilities.

    There’s quite a bit more, Truth, but you get the idea. I don’t much care that they do this in their own country, but if they mean to bring that crap here then, I repeat, to hell with them.

  41. GeoPal Says:

    Good Lord! How could I have forgotten “honor killings”. The most reprehensible of the reprehensible.

  42. Tim P Says:

    Huxley,

    Good answers. I agree with your points.
    The first three points you wrote, I believe will come as the living standard muslim countries rises and with greater affluence will come increasing social liberalization.

    Your last point however, would not be necessary as
    long as we, a) remain strong and are willing to use force when necessary and b) get over our stupid and downright suicidal political correctness and abject guilt syndrome.

    In your earlier post you seemed to take a sterner tone.
    Others made even scarier comments when they said, “ISLAM CANNOT COEXIST WITH HUMANITY.”

    That attitude leads only down the road of total war and annihilation of entire populations.

    As I said earlier, we must act forcefully and decisively, even preemptively when required. But we must also do all that we can to bring this part of the world into the 21st century. Neither the carrot or the stick alone will be successful, they must be used together.

    What I find scary is the Russia and China’s meddling to stir up trouble for us. As if they won’t eventually be affected by it also.

    That along with the unholy alliance of western European and to a lesser degree the American left, with radical islamists (and I make a distinction between islam and islamists) to weaken the west for short sighted political gain.

    They need to look at recent history to understand how after Khomeni seized power in Iran, he eliminated the leftist tools that helped him topple the Shah and seize power.

  43. Rose Says:

    Irshad Manji’s perspective – Inside India: Graver than the news

    She’s one of the few speaking out, and seeking reform of her religion.

  44. Rose Says:

    This link should work… Inside India: Graver than the news

  45. Hong Says:

    Timmy:

    You insult me by lumping me with ‘Truth’. I have been nothing but anchored to the real world. As for you post:

    No, I’m not egotistical enough to think I can mobilize the muslim world against us but thanks for believing in me. But they are sheep. Your ‘moderates’, your ‘hardliners’, your ‘undecided’ all roam the same pasture. There is no difference because there is no action. Again where are the Mohamed Luthers?

    Unfortunately you play into the hands of CAIR and the conspiracy groups that would misguide you into believing red herrings. The ones directing this jihad are not the poor, benighted victims you imagine them to be. It’s the rich and upwardly educated elites of the population. They aren’t motivated by money or lack of access to the virgins but instead to their Allah.

    So what’s the answer? Genocide? Dangerous and truly the option of last resort. No the answer is found in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Turkey. Constitutional separation of Church and State.

    If Iraq has taught us anything is that the forced democratization, whether it’s the Middle East, Germany, Japan or South Korea works. It’s a bloody, expensive and terrific tragedy of destroyed lives sometimes but the alternative of Kumbaya and Jimmy Carter proves that college doesn’t filter out natural born retards. lol

  46. Tim P Says:

    Hong,
    Wow, touched a nerve eh? You shouldn’t be so sensitive.
    You said,

    So what’s the answer? Genocide? Dangerous and truly the option of last resort. No the answer is found in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Turkey. Constitutional separation of Church and State.

    If Iraq has taught us anything is that the forced democratization, whether it’s the Middle East, Germany, Japan or South Korea works.

    Which is basically repeating what I and others have said earlier. You really must work on your reading comprehension.

    As for insulting you. Not really my intention. As for insulting the ignorant twaddle like “The apologists would have you believe Islam isn’t corrupt or fashioned for psychotic exploitation…” which you wrote. Yes, I did insult it because it’s bigoted, hateful & stupid.

    Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is apologizing or making excuses for the islamist terrorists.

    Let’s look a little closer at your response;
    The ones directing this jihad are not the poor, benighted victims you imagine them to be. Neither I nor anyone else here believes that terrorist operations are directed by victims. Nor did I or anyone else here call or imply anyone as ‘benighted.’ You are imagining things that weren’t written or even implied.

    They aren’t motivated by money or lack of access to the virgins but instead to their Allah.
    Again, I stress, read what’s actually there, not what you want to think is there. Comprehension! Please go look at what I actually wrote. Those virgins clouding your thinking are they?

    Here’s the gist of my statement,

    As I said earlier, we must act forcefully and decisively, even preemptively when required. But we must also do all that we can to bring this part of the world into the 21st century. Neither the carrot or the stick alone will be successful, they must be used together.

    Please read and re-read it until you understand it.

    college doesn’t filter out natural born retards.
    So true. You are a shining example of that and your statements drive home that fact.

  47. Truth Says:

    Q Morning, Mr. President. I have a more general question about the United States’ work to democratize the rest of the world. Many have viewed the United States’ effort to democratize the world — especially nations in the Middle East — as an imposition or invasion on their sovereign rights. Considering that it was, in fact, the Prophet Mohammed who established the first known constitution in the world — I’m referring to the constitution he wrote for the city of Medina –and that his life and the principles outlined in his constitution, such as the championing of the welfare of women, children and the poor, living as an equal among his people, dissolving disputes between the warring clans in Arabia, giving any man or woman in parliament the right to vote and guaranteeing respect for all religions, ironically parallel those principles that we hold most precious in our own Constitution. I’m wondering how might your recently formed Iraq Study Group under the U.S. Institute for Peace explore these striking similarities to forge a new relationship with Iraqis and educate Americans about the democratic principles inherent in Islam?

    When other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others.

    While modern Western civilization shares many of these traits, the civilization I’m talking about was the Islamic world from the year 800 to 1600, which included the Ottoman Empire and the courts of Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo, and enlightened rulers like Suleiman the Magnificent.

    Although we are often unaware of our indebtedness to this other civilization, its gifts are very much a part of our heritage. The technology industry would not exist without the contributions of Arab mathematicians. Sufi poet-philosophers like Rumi challenged our notions of self and truth. Leaders like Suleiman contributed to our notions of tolerance and civic leadership.

    And perhaps we can learn a lesson from his example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population–that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions.

    This kind of enlightened leadership — leadership that nurtured culture, sustainability, diversity and courage — led to 800 years of invention and prosperity.

    CARLY FIORINA
    MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA, SEPTEMBER 26, 2001
    TECHNOLOGY, BUSINESS AND OUR WAY OF LIFE: WHAT’S NEXT

    GeoPal ,

    Looks you are out of blue here. Read what I said earlier and reread gain.

    To prove for us your interest in Islam and your knowledge, gives us ONE Verse from Koran that support ONE of those Points that you list from Wahhabism Ideology.

    Looks to me people her driven by hatred and anger that no justifies for it they just had thier chases full of hatred.

    Sorry I can help you guys.

  48. huxley Says:

    Tim P — It seems then that we largely agree, though with some disagreement over the nature of Islam and how candid Westerners may be in discussing Islam within earshot of Muslims, which in the Internet Age means never.

    According to Islam, Allah insists that Islam will dominate over all religions and all peoples. In that sense, no, Islam cannot coexist with humanity as liberal Westerners understand coexistence. That’s just the way Islam is.

    When Muslims are weak, they seem to coexist, but they are simply biding their time until they can push forward again. They are stronger now, because of oil money and demographics, so they are pushing forward again. This won’t end until Muslims reform Islam.

  49. waltj Says:

    “Hatred can be overcome only by love”.
    Mahatma Gandhi

    Truth, let’s remember something here. The reason Gandhi’s protests worked as well as they did was that the occupying power in India at that time was Britain. Gandhi knew his opponent well, and understood that the Brits are fundamentally decent people who have an aversion to killing unarmed civilians. As an example, Brigadier Reginald Dyer, in command of British forces during the Amritsar Massacre, was cashiered for his actions in killing between 380 and 1000 protesters. Now, let’s imagine if, say, one of Stalin’s NKVD commissars had been in charge of a similar incident in the Soviet Union. Instead of being censured, demoted, and sent home, as Dyer was, he would have been praised, promoted, and sent to quell the next uprising as well. Love can indeed overcome much, but sometimes hatred just has to be met head-on. Not with hatred, but with resolve, and sometimes, with enough countervailing force to compel the hater to change if not his mind, at least his behavior.

  50. Hong Says:

    “Wow, touched a nerve eh? ”
    Wow, respond often at 12.21 Sunday morning Timmer? Yeah, ouch for you…lol. You can respond without blowing up but not when fed your medicine of snide commentary it seems. I will continue to respond to you with the the mockery you clearly deserve if you insist on behaving like a jacka*s troll.

    “Which is basically repeating what I and others have said earlier”
    Good for you, but the purpose behind my point was to point out that Genocide is not an option for me either. You couldn’t comprehend that so I had to spell it out.

    “You really must work on your reading comprehension.”
    Speaking of work, I know you’re a bit slow here but try and keep up. My opinion about Islam is probably true. It’s a corrupt religion (certainly corrupted) used to promote genocide. You clearly disagree but have you seen a Mohamed Luther? So then my point stands.

    And did I accuse you of being an apologist? See you’re so egotistical that you interpret all my general remarks to be about you. Isn’t it more likely that ‘Truth’ could be the recipient?

    As for your theory that weak economic and political stability are the primary causes for the violence. It’s weak, since it ignores the elephant in the room. Religion. No other society has reacted quite the same way as the Muslims to the same factors you described. Your attempt to reduce Islam as just another factor in the explosive dynamic trivializes how uniquely intolerant it is. Such as their habit of victimology unlike any other faith. Have you forgotten that the history of terrorism in the Middle east predates the modern world? So where are the terrorist Christians the Left leap in abject terror from?

    I haven’t misread your response to me. Your denial about the religious component is crippling any actual sense you could be making. It’s as misguided as zeroing in on the 72 virgins. What’s with you and those girls (we can only assume) anyway?

    I understood your point about carrots and sticks and it still sounds as hopelessly naive and cliched as when I first read it. Again, where does believing in the powerless ‘moderates’, who you plant your lips to, bring actual change? And who are they? Are they really so different from the Hamas, Hezbollahs, and Al Qaidas that dominate?

    “As for insulting you. Not really my intention.”
    Lets see, so you weren’t trying to insult me with your put downs but do so now. Why because I challenged your inflated opinions with a little of your own snark? That logic of yours makes about as much sense as your posts here I suppose. lol

  51. GeoPal Says:

    Truth, you are a marvelous theoretician and a convenient historian. I’ve already stated in a previous comment that quoting from the Koran is an exercise in futility as the book is a hodge-podge of paradoxical incoherence. You mention Suleiman the Magnificent, the lawgiver and builder. Wonderful example, but do you see any evidence of his influence remaining to this day, ANY? I don’t. I see cutthroat dictators and blood thirsty Imams.

    You conveniently close an already blind eye to the incompatibility of Islam and Western culture by accusing Wahhabism instead of Islam. Very well, let’s look at Wahhabism. According to the Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:
    “(Wahhabism) reject all acts implying polytheism, including the veneration of saints, and advocate A RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL TEACHINGS OF ISLAM AS FOUND IN THE QU’RAN AND THE HADITH.” (Caps emphasis mine)

    Get that Truth, the original teachings of the Koran AND the Hadith. Wahhabism is the primary player in exporting the basest elements of Islam and the even baser Hadith (from which we are given the separation of the world into ‘dar al-harb’ (the land of war) and ‘dar al-Islam’ (the land of peace – Islam). Wahhabism and Saudi billions are polluting the world. If you wish to dance around this fact by trying to deny the symbiotic nature of Islam, the Hadith, and Wahhabism, then, by all means, wallow in your illusions but don’t expect me to buy into them.

  52. huxley Says:

    Truth — You have the perfect username for a Muslim apologist: absolute, smug, and self-serving. Facts don’t matter, unless they support Islam. Lies don’t matter, if they support Islam.

    The Carly Fiorina piece you cite is just a standard whitewash of Islam. For an excellent rebuttal, see What Arab Civilization?, which is a point-by-point fisking of Fiorina’s vapid claims.

    The author’s gist is that the so-called Arab/Islamic contributions to civilization were almost entirely expropriated from Assyrians, Jews, Greeks, and Christians.

  53. Truth Says:

    o-called Arab/Islamic contributions to civilization were almost entirely expropriated from Assyrians, Jews, Greeks, and Christians.

    Your hatred obvious takes you high here.

    You forgot very basic fact the first civilisation that made you read and write (your hatred) is

    Babylonians!!! You know were in IRAQ_ARAB.

    Asked your NASA what their finding? When they landed on the moon in 1969 they took the latest devices to masseurs the distant between the Earth & Moon. They shocked why?

    They found the difference between what they measured and the Babylonians was in METRES?

    I don’t discussing Islamic civilisation as such you brought it here but you should be a ware that I did not mentioned they created from nothing, they ADDED to the previous Civilisation as also the done from the older one.

  54. GeoPal Says:

    Truth, you rely on the last resort of a failed argument, call the adversary a hater (do I hear racist?).

    Any measure of gratitude for any advancement to civilization made by the Babylonians is only possible because they had not yet been threatened or tortured into the know-nothingism of Islam. For that, modern civilization is thankful and so too would be the Babylonians were they made aware of the scourge of Islam that awaited the world.

  55. huxley Says:

    Truth — Again your name is perfect…in the Orwellian sense. Again, you twist facts and lie and call it Truth.

    The Babylonians were Semites. They were among the ancestors of Arabs, but they were not Arabs, anymore than the Saxons were English.

    Babylonian civilization and culture was neither Arab nor Islamic, having preceded both by over a thousand years. Arab/Islamic civilization gets no credit for what the Babylonians produced.

    Indeed from what I can tell Arab/Islamic civilization gets little credit for anything beyond a remarkably effective predatory religion that has preyed on the hard work of others since founded by a warlord who stole the ideas for Islam from Jews and Christians, and funded his movement by military raids on caravans and neighbors.

  56. Truth Says:

    GeoPal ,

    ENOUGH
    Give us One Verse From Koran That Support ONE of Your Failed List or go silnet with your failed argument

    GeoPal ,

    ENOUGH
    Give us ONE Verse from Koran That Support ONE of Your Failed List or go silent with your failed argument

    I don’t have time to waste with some who locked their minds on single side of hatred that can not justified at all. Historical facts and today many things in our life that invited by Muslims and Islamic civilization can not be dined as long as the judgement day.

    So if you still not believe go read this book will take you step by step with facts and support what Muslims gave you and what the added handed to west when they get out of dark age to complete the journey with the world civilizations before them

    Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World

    Experience a thousand years of missing history!
    Learn about a lost age of Muslim innovation and invention!
    Discover the Muslim origins of many Western discoveries!

    Huxley

    Fogot
    Forgot Carly Fiorina piece and tell us what your answer to first bit of my post! , just you can’t beat them as it is a university research group alternatively go correct them p if you think your theory of hatred right.

  57. Truth Says:

    The Babylonians were Semites. They were among the ancestors of Arabs

    The Babylonians our ancestors we proud of them, what is your objection?

  58. huxley Says:

    Truth — You seem to be running out of room to squirm.

    As was clear from my post, I have no objection to the Babylonians. It’s just that the Babylonians were not Arabs and they were not Muslims, therefore it’s a nonsequitur for you to bring them up as a credit to Arab/Islamic civilization.

    Today Nokia, a Finnish telecom company, contributes more to the world economy than all the Arab countries of the Middle East, if one excludes their oil wealth. Arabs can’t even extract and manage their own oil without Western technology and Western specialists.

    In spite of the trillions of dollars that have flowed into the coffers of Arab countries, the standard of living in those countries remains among the lowest in the world. Approximately half the young in Saudi Arabia wish to emigrate.

    Such is the state of Arab/Islamic civilization today. Although Arabs are constantly blaming the Jews, Israel, America, and the West. I don’t think they have anyone to blame but themselves.

  59. GeoPal Says:

    Truth, Truth, Truth. Stop living in the imaginary past and stop waving the Koran around. Islam is, as it always has been, a collection of intolerant psychotics in a perpetual state of rage and bloodlust.

    This is just the most recent result of the psychosis that is Islam:
    http://www.aina.org/news/20081126035704.htm

    This took place in a city with a somewhat casual/secular reputation and the Christian church had a permit and permission. Islam can get along with nothing but Islam. Islam is tolerant of nothing other than Islam. Islam is dar al-harb (the land of war) and dar al-Islam (the land of peace – Islam) – it will accept nothing else and as such should be treated for what it is – a scourge.

  60. Truth Says:

    In spite of the trillions of dollars that have flowed into the coffers of Arab countries, the standard of living in those countries remains among the lowest in the world.

    You touched the bar here, For 6 years your country with Sheik Paul (Jerry) BremerIII (Btw, his biography so long of disaster management) have took USD9.0 Billions from “the trillions of dollars” of oil, so you should ask first your folk where is USD9.9 Billions vanished before accusing very known tyrants corrupts regimes.

    Moreover, your sheikh made Iraq dismantled state and the last in the list of most corrupted state in the world.

    You should turn around a go to blame your sheikh first, are we living in 1900 or 21-century gays here?

  61. English patriot Says:

    This debate has focussed on Islamic violence, rightly in the wake of Mumbai, but has seen some hyperbole.

    There seem to me to be two related, but different problems with Islam.

    The first, and most obvious, is the recurrent violence of Islamist terrorists. There is scarcely a month goes by that we do not hear of Islamist attacks on civilians of other religious groups, and of course other muslims who do not share their worldview, followed immediately by appeasers and apologists peddling the customary justifications for Islamist violence. It is usually justified as being a response to Western foreign policy or outrage at perceived injustice towards muslims. Such arguments are usually so fatuous and ignorant that they scarcely merit a response. More sensible commentators acknowledge that such violence is serious, determined, motivated by a particular religious belief and requires physical interdiction by western security forces. The means advocated, of course, differ.

    It is clear that only a minority of muslims engage in such acts of violence, though how many more approve quietly is less clear.

    The second problem with Islam is less obvious and in the long term may be even more troublesome. Islam holds that the Law of God, is superior to the law of man, and should take practical precedence. This gives rise to problems for muslims with the western constitutional settlement. We believe that the only law which must be obeyed, without exception, and with the threat of punishment, is law enacted by Parliament without reference to any deity. We reject the idea of more than one jurisdiction and we cannot permit a religious legal code either to exist alongside secular law, or as some muslims advocate, to replace secular law. For many muslims this is wrong, and unacceptable. The opening salvo’s in this conflict are being played out in the courts, so far crystallising around the muslim headscarf and similar cultural issues.

    Trimegistus is bold to assert that Islam cannot coexist with humanity, and it is to be hoped that he is wrong.

    By contrast it is becoming increasingly clear that Islam may indeed be unable to coexist with constitutional democracy and the rule of secular law.

  62. Truth Says:

    By contrast it is becoming increasingly clear that Islam may indeed be unable to coexist with constitutional democracy and the rule of secular law.

    This is untrue.

    In Iraq the rule of secular law brought by amricans and thier support.

  63. English patriot Says:

    The secular law established in Iraq has been achieved after a violent and protracted struggle against Islamists seeking to impose a state which observes Shari’a.

    This is not an example of Islam coexisting with secular law, it is an example of constitutional democracy and secular law being offered to the population of Iraq, and readily embraced, as an alternative to Islamic law.

    The adoption of secular law in Iraq requires the rejection of Shari’a, which further represents a rejection of Islam.

    If, as is to be hoped, Islam becomes capable in the future of coexisting peacefully with democracy and secular law, it will be because Islam undergoes a Reformation of the same depth and sincerity as the Christian Reformation of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

    To coexist in a democracy the Muslim must accept that the law enacted by the parliament takes precedence over religious law and observance. To do so he must break with aspects of Shari’a. For example, most secular law would not recognise apostasy as a crime. The Muslim living in a democracy must accept this and recognise that there will be no punishment of another person, whom they regard as an apostate. They must therefore refuse to act upon any religious injunction to punish such a person. In most democratic legal codes, religion may be criticised, even in offensive terms. This includes Islam. Muslims who wish to coexist peacefully in a constitutional democracy must expect Islam to be criticised within the law. This may involve humour, visual imagery or simple comment – all are acceptable in a democracy. Violent protest is not as it breaks the law.

    Constitutional democracy is presently seeking to accommodate the demands of Islam in the west, but can only do so to a limited degree without destroying itself.

    In the western world either Islam or constitutional democracy will have to change radically to accommodate the requirements of the other. As ideologies they are diametrically opposed, and cannot coexist.

    Islam does not appear ready to change and therefore may not be able to coexist with the constitutional democracy and the secular law.

  64. What’s the Matter With Islam? :All That Is Necessary… Says:

    [...] not yet clear which group is behind the disciplined, well-coordinated attacks in Mumbai, but as Neo-neocon said, “it seems to involve Islamic terrorists. That’s always a good bet, of course.” [...]

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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