Comments on: Updike and the literary lights on war and peace http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/ Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:18:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Tom Grey http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100539 Tom Grey Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:12:30 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100539 Your quotes were fantastic, Neo, getting the essence of a great, longish (for a blog post reference), essay. But you did miss the anger. The anger at the anti-American part of the anti-war movement: <i>“Jesus, don't they make you glad you're an American?” I was glad, and resented having my native land, with its treasure of natural resources and enlightened institutions and hopeful immigrant peoples, being described as Amerika. The peace movement's branding our government with a swastika seemed to me insanely blasphemous and itself totalitarian.</i> The wrong side, the Communist side, won in Vietnam. Thanks to their allies, the anti-war Americans who refuse to admit that being against American fighting until victory means favoring losing to the commies. Fighters cannot choose to win, they can only choose to fight ... or choose to lose. Violence is required to avoid losing. In S. Vietnam (1974), in Israel, in Iraq, in Afghanistan. Thanks for a great link. Your quotes were fantastic, Neo, getting the essence of a great, longish (for a blog post reference), essay.

But you did miss the anger. The anger at the anti-American part of the anti-war movement:
“Jesus, don’t they make you glad you’re an American?”

I was glad, and resented having my native land, with its treasure of natural resources and enlightened institutions and hopeful immigrant peoples, being described as Amerika. The peace movement’s branding our government with a swastika seemed to me insanely blasphemous and itself totalitarian.

The wrong side, the Communist side, won in Vietnam. Thanks to their allies, the anti-war Americans who refuse to admit that being against American fighting until victory means favoring losing to the commies.

Fighters cannot choose to win, they can only choose to fight … or choose to lose.
Violence is required to avoid losing.
In S. Vietnam (1974), in Israel, in Iraq, in Afghanistan.
Thanks for a great link.

]]> By: Richard Aubrey http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100397 Richard Aubrey Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:50:54 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100397 Oblio Yeah. Even in good times, there is a lot of turnover in strip malls. And before a store goes out, there's bound to be unpaid rent and so forth. Nevertheless, they keep getting built like they're more golden geese. Perhaps it's tax breaks. I've heard it said that, in some cities, you can make money on an office building due to tax breaks before you get anybody in it. However, I have never heard of historical preservation being promoted on the grounds that the developer would be losing money if he got that particular piece of ground. Oblio
Yeah. Even in good times, there is a lot of turnover in strip malls. And before a store goes out, there’s bound to be unpaid rent and so forth.
Nevertheless, they keep getting built like they’re more golden geese.
Perhaps it’s tax breaks. I’ve heard it said that, in some cities, you can make money on an office building due to tax breaks before you get anybody in it.
However, I have never heard of historical preservation being promoted on the grounds that the developer would be losing money if he got that particular piece of ground.

]]> By: Oblio http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100383 Oblio Mon, 02 Feb 2009 06:59:24 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100383 Richard Aubrey, maybe the new building would make more sense or maybe not. Developers do make economic mistakes, and even ghastly ones. But I think we are agreeing. Richard Aubrey, maybe the new building would make more sense or maybe not. Developers do make economic mistakes, and even ghastly ones.

But I think we are agreeing.

]]> By: Richard Aubrey http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100349 Richard Aubrey Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:25:14 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100349 Oblio. Historical preservation preserves buildings which would otherwise be demolished for something makiing more economic sense. Which is to say, if you're rich already, you don't have to worry. You can keep the stuff around. But if you're not rich and you seek opportunity, from time to time a historical building will be one of the obstacles. Fortunately, you can probably go elsewhere, but if elsewhere were the best bet to start with, you wouldn't have been a threat to a historical building in the first place. Historical preservation is nice, but don't think it is without cost. Just remember that those who bear the cost don't have much money, don't make much noise, and can safely be ignored by their superiors. Oblio.
Historical preservation preserves buildings which would otherwise be demolished for something makiing more economic sense. Which is to say, if you’re rich already, you don’t have to worry. You can keep the stuff around.
But if you’re not rich and you seek opportunity, from time to time a historical building will be one of the obstacles.
Fortunately, you can probably go elsewhere, but if elsewhere were the best bet to start with, you wouldn’t have been a threat to a historical building in the first place.
Historical preservation is nice, but don’t think it is without cost.
Just remember that those who bear the cost don’t have much money, don’t make much noise, and can safely be ignored by their superiors.

]]> By: Oblio http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100258 Oblio Sun, 01 Feb 2009 01:16:05 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100258 That was too cryptic. I observe that the people interested in historic preservation are, not to put too fine a point on it, rich and well connected folks with an interest in architecture. That makes them not unlike people who are interested in the arts, with the same kinds of social attitudes. Promoting historic preservation appears to be disinterested, but it's actually wonderful social advertising. The urban rich are publicly liberal because they wish to ward off envy and the Evil Eye. Reducing the number of real estate magnates helps keep parvenus from disrupting the social order any more than they do. The city bureaucrats are happy because it spawns more regulations and restrictions. The Left is happy because the March of Capitalism is slowed down. Everyone is happy. And in fairness, historic preservation has done a lot of good. I'm happy it exists. But it is not particularly important to political conservatives. That was too cryptic.

I observe that the people interested in historic preservation are, not to put too fine a point on it, rich and well connected folks with an interest in architecture. That makes them not unlike people who are interested in the arts, with the same kinds of social attitudes. Promoting historic preservation appears to be disinterested, but it’s actually wonderful social advertising.

The urban rich are publicly liberal because they wish to ward off envy and the Evil Eye. Reducing the number of real estate magnates helps keep parvenus from disrupting the social order any more than they do.

The city bureaucrats are happy because it spawns more regulations and restrictions. The Left is happy because the March of Capitalism is slowed down.

Everyone is happy. And in fairness, historic preservation has done a lot of good. I’m happy it exists. But it is not particularly important to political conservatives.

]]> By: Oblio http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100257 Oblio Sun, 01 Feb 2009 00:59:07 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100257 Not much of a paradox, I would say. Not much of a paradox, I would say.

]]> By: njcommuter http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100251 njcommuter Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:16:46 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100251 It's interesting, though, that the Historical Preservation movement in the cities is more a liberal cause than a conservative one. Interesting paradox, no? It’s interesting, though, that the Historical Preservation movement in the cities is more a liberal cause than a conservative one. Interesting paradox, no?

]]> By: mizpants http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100219 mizpants Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:28:02 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100219 Thanks so much, Oblio! You made my day. I would post more, but others, like you, know so much more history than I do. I have to pick my spots. What should you read? How about Saul Bellow's MR. SAMMLER'S PLANET. He was another not-of-the-left writer, and that book is a particular favorite of mine. Not that a writer's politics have to matter (or at least they used not to matter.) And gcotharn: what you say about the idea that something is endangered when the imperative to "change the world" is taken as Gospel -- well that's conservatism's deepest truth, isn't it? Thanks so much, Oblio! You made my day. I would post more, but others, like you, know so much more history than I do. I have to pick my spots.
What should you read? How about Saul Bellow’s MR. SAMMLER’S PLANET. He was another not-of-the-left writer, and that book is a particular favorite of mine. Not that a writer’s politics have to matter (or at least they used not to matter.)
And gcotharn: what you say about the idea that something is endangered when the imperative to “change the world” is taken as Gospel — well that’s conservatism’s deepest truth, isn’t it?

]]> By: Oblio http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100192 Oblio Sat, 31 Jan 2009 14:34:15 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100192 Please write more, mizpants. Your posts are rays of sunshine. And tell me what I should be reading today. Fred, I didn't mean to start a discussion of errors in US war policy during the Vietnam War. The thing that catches my attention is the toxic brew of anger and ignorance that exists 35-40 years later. We also need to recognize that some people are still angry not out of ignorance, but as the result of some very specific knowledge. I suspect we will be the same way about the Iraq War in 30 years time, unless something truly terrible happens in the interim to put the whole thing into perspective. Fred, if you are interested in how lack of the high command's belief in victory can destroy an army, you should read Niall Ferguson's The Pity of War on the collapse of the German army in 1918. If you want to read how nobody, not even in the Greatest Generation, wants to be the last to die in a just and winning cause, I recommend Max Hasting's Armageddon. And thinks, Neo. Updike's essay was riveting. Please write more, mizpants. Your posts are rays of sunshine. And tell me what I should be reading today.

Fred, I didn’t mean to start a discussion of errors in US war policy during the Vietnam War. The thing that catches my attention is the toxic brew of anger and ignorance that exists 35-40 years later. We also need to recognize that some people are still angry not out of ignorance, but as the result of some very specific knowledge.

I suspect we will be the same way about the Iraq War in 30 years time, unless something truly terrible happens in the interim to put the whole thing into perspective.

Fred, if you are interested in how lack of the high command’s belief in victory can destroy an army, you should read Niall Ferguson’s The Pity of War on the collapse of the German army in 1918. If you want to read how nobody, not even in the Greatest Generation, wants to be the last to die in a just and winning cause, I recommend Max Hasting’s Armageddon.

And thinks, Neo. Updike’s essay was riveting.

]]> By: njcommuter http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100186 njcommuter Sat, 31 Jan 2009 13:33:23 +0000 http://neoneocon.com/2009/01/30/updike-and-the-literary-lights-on-war-and-peace/#comment-100186 <blockquote><i>Peace depends upon the threat of violence.</i></blockquote>This one sentence, it seems to me, is the key to the whole rift between the barking moonbats and reality. Their whole position is based on the idea that the only reason there is no peace is that someone is defending himself. If only people would give up the means of self-defense, and the practice of self-defense, so they argue, everything would be peaceful. And to make this happen, they are willing to inflict violence upon people trying to defend themselves and defend others. Their own willingness to do violence for a cause not universally agreed upon should be proof enough that others will do the same for other causes not universally agreed upon. Like someone's greed for money, or greed for land, or greed for power, or for a soapbox or microphone. Peace depends upon the threat of violence.

Peace depends upon the threat of violence.

This one sentence, it seems to me, is the key to the whole rift between the barking moonbats and reality. Their whole position is based on the idea that the only reason there is no peace is that someone is defending himself. If only people would give up the means of self-defense, and the practice of self-defense, so they argue, everything would be peaceful.

And to make this happen, they are willing to inflict violence upon people trying to defend themselves and defend others. Their own willingness to do violence for a cause not universally agreed upon should be proof enough that others will do the same for other causes not universally agreed upon. Like someone’s greed for money, or greed for land, or greed for power, or for a soapbox or microphone.

Peace depends upon the threat of violence.

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