March 4th, 2009

Obama’s energy proposals and your utility bills

If you ever had any doubt, it’s becoming more and more clear every day that Obama meant every single radical thing he ever said. Including that one about bankrupting the coal companies.

Don’t recall it? Well, let me refresh your memory:

Obama said [in a January 2007 interview] that the environmental policies he proposes would cause builders of new coal plants to go bankrupt. And he didn’t sound the least bit sad about the prospect…

Obama stated that;

…under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket…whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers.

I added at the time I wrote my post on the subject, right before the 2008 election, that:

Rather than banning new coal plants de jure, [Obama] plans to drive them out of business de facto, because the environmental requirements of his policies would be so stringent that new plants would be unable to comply and the penalties for noncompliance would be catastrophic. In other words,, any new plants would have to pay penalties so Draconian that they would be bankrupted—and the listener is left to wonder whether even older plants might be required to retrofit in order to comply, and be forced out of business as well.

Obama’s plan is that market forces would dictate that, as new coal production would become impossible, people would be forced to quickly fill in for the lack of power by developing the wonderfully clean alternative sources of energy that he is so sure would be available if only the will were there. We have no way of knowing whether it would work out that way, of course. But in the meantime we could be sure that the economic costs would be very high, as Obama unapologetically states.

Well, you can’t say I—and Obama—didn’t warn you. Although one had to be paying close attention to hear it, and to understand what he actually meant—and still means.

Obama seems to think that green energy can be developed and made reasonable and efficient to use, if only the nasty old capitalists were given the right incentives to develop it. This argument was already suspect two years ago when he made it. But now, in a recession, his policies are a recipe for a deepening of the economic disaster, with no real evidence that such sources of energy are even scientifically possible at this juncture.

Note that Obama is not talking about developing the one alternative source that most definitely is available: nuclear power plants. Nor is he supporting tapping new domestic fossil fuel sources to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

No, his goals are far more utopian, according to Barron’s:

The President has a worthy if somewhat utopian goal in mind: He is attempting to create a new industrial base that will produce solar panels, windmills, a smart electrical grid and other clean-energy sources and technologies, while simultaneously boosting the economy and reducing U.S. dependence on foreign oil. Leadership in green technologies theoretically would give the U.S. something to sell to the rest of the world that cheap-labor countries like China and India can’t produce readily…Because solar, wind and other forms of clean energy are now much more expensive to generate than energy supplied by coal, gas and oil, Congress would have to pass legislation that in effect forces Americans to use more of it.

Why are they more expensive? Because they are inefficient and are not being produced and used on a large scale. Unfortunately, there are reasons why this is so—and these are mostly physical rather than political, although liberals have great difficulty acknowledging this extremely inconvenient truth.

It’s not just lack of goodwill that stops us from heating our homes with the sun and the wind and the rain, as Steven den Beste pointed out back in 2002 in this post. It’s science:

Small sources of energy are easy. Big sources of energy aren’t, and the small sources of energy can’t be scaled, and there aren’t enough of them so that even when added up they would be enough to matter… Anything which, when fully deployed, generates less than ten gigawatts average (1010 joules per second) is useless for our purposes in terms of actually making a meaningful contribution to the total amount of energy we consume. For scale purposes:

Hoover Dam = 1.5 gigawatts.
Grand Coulee Dam = 6.5 gigawatts
Small coal or nuclear plant = 300 megawatts
Large coal or nuclear plant = 1 gigawatt

Average US electrical power consumption = 400 gigawatts

Peak US electrical power consumption is probably above 1 terawatt

Den Beste went on to describe four large enough sources of energy that might be practical some day, but none of them are even close to being realizable yet (the science is nowhere near there), and they certainly don’t include anything like wind or solar power. The latter have their uses, no doubt. But to drive out coal by making it unaffordable, in the hopes that good alternatives will just spring into action to take its place, is an absurdity.

And very, very expensive. The last thing we need in the current financial climate is added expense.

But Obama has an answer for that, as well—and it’s his answer to almost everything right now: pass the cost on to the rich and give the poor a break.

Ace discusses the way it will work:

Obama’s cap and trade scheme will impose a $700-$1400 additional tax on all families as energy producers (and users) pass-through their own higher costs to the public.

Obama plans to devote more taxpayer money to defray these costs for those making $75,000 per year or less.

So the added burden will be borne by those making over $75,000 a year—the bad “rich” guys, who will be footing the bill for almost everything in the Obama administration.

Note, by the way, that with cap and trade it’s not just those making more than $250,000—Obama’s old dividing line between the innocent poor and the guilty rich—who will be in trouble. But he is technically correct that those in the $75,000 to $250,000 bracket would not actually be paying a raised tax. Instead, they (and everyone else) would be paying higher utility bills as a result of the Obama penalties on coal plants. But they also would not be getting the federal monies that the under-75K crowd would be receiving to offset it.

Pretty clever, no? Let’s see: electric bills skyrocket as a result of Obama’s policies. Cheap and efficient wind and solar power cannot possibly fill the gap, as much as we all would wish it. Obama’s green supporters are ecstatic, however, and support him mightily. The rest of the public is unlikely—unless they are paying strict attention—to understand why their utility bills are rising. Obama will no doubt say it’s because of the nasty coal and electric companies trying to stiff the poor working American. This increases that enmity against greedy capitalists that so suits Obama’s electoral purposes.

And then, who comes to the rescue for those making under $75,000? Why, Obama and the Democrats, that’s who. As for the jobs lost in the process—well, who cares, as long as the government is ready with a helping hand?

[ADDENDUM: Read Hanson on Obama, “The Great Divider.” I can’t say I think the President will take his suggestions, though, since they run counter to his own purposes.]

119 Responses to “Obama’s energy proposals and your utility bills”

  1. Artfldgr Says:

    Just because the majority wants something does not mean that the greater good is really served; just because the majority wants something doesn’t mean that anyone has the right to expropriate it from the owner; and just because the majority wants something doesn’t mean that the process itself is “sustainable” — the new catchword used to limit all innovation and progress.

    So, with the darkness created and then dispelled, I made several points about how “majority rule” can lead to the total collapse of a society:

    Allocation of expropriated property or labor leads to resistance and output reduction on the part of those who are being plundered. But when supplies are reduced and demand remains constant (or increases), discontent arises among the voters, who are taught to believe that their mere votes somehow create goods and services.

    Those in power eventually fear losing their positions, so they are forced to allocate resources — in other words, to ration them. These actions by themselves are rarely popular, so the rationing must be seen as necessary, in light of some recently discovered or manufactured “crisis.” (Crises met, managed, or merely old are no longer useful for political purposes.)

    After rationing fails to meet the needs, the remaining productive class must be inspired to produce ever more, with ever-less reward. Eventually, the producers must be forced to produce: we have shortages, stagnation of innovation, and, ultimately, slavery — destitution.

    They got it. They left with their books and long faces. I was not invited back. It wasn’t out of any personal feeling; it was just that no one wanted to hear the message that voting by itself produces nothing, and that force by itself wastes resources and “produces” less and less.

    he is setting this all up to get these reflex responses…

    in other words converting from a free state to a communist totalitarian state has a process, and the process guides the knee jerk reflex actions to which everyone thinks they are going to change things back

    so the tea party thing and galt thing is just the thing to make the producers enemies of the state, and the poor to be the army to force them

    the energy situation is to mobilize the poor to force these people to work under pain of death…

    i think that the things i explained, are now becoming easier and easier to see..

    just as a chess game develops the plans and counter moves blocking opponents bcome easier to see…

    till the opponent (the people) gives up..

    they dont move till they have checkmate.

    if they are moving and we realize it, unliek a year ago, that means they have checkmate. and our own reflexive responses will seal the deal.

    It will be worse for the useful idiots. they will start responding… but they are on the wrong side then.. they wil ltry to bargain, like a man with a gun to his head, they will not relize that they no longer have anything to bargain with… they traded their only collective chip, freedom, for what they just got!

    they will get hurt till they figure out that they are no longer allowed to protest and do those things as they did before… the left is in charge, and so everything they imagined as evil from the right, is now going to be applied to them, for it was coming from the totalitarian left and telling them it was from the right.

    this is why thigns are going to get faster.

    they inverted things… so now to run away, we will not figure out wich way, we will ruin reflexively and as we see more communism we will work harder to make more commnism thinking we are stopping it. the GALT people are making it…

    ayn rand knew how it was later, she didnt know the methodology to bring it all about in reality…

    that this is a form of political judo… in which one does not seek to prevent the responses, but feed tem and guide them to your ends.

    i will not bore you all with the ends.
    it has to do with what i siad.. triking the horse to go int he directio you wan tit to go… what the horse thinks is irrelevent since the ruler only needs teh material to comply not the person.

  2. DirtyJobsGuy Says:

    As an electric power guy, you are absolutely correct. BO doesn’t want to reduce CO2 by incremental incentives, he will disguise actions by restrictive regulations or fees. Already, oil leases on federal land are being revoked ostensibly to renegoitate royalty rates. But higher rates for demonstration projects make no sense unless you want to stop the project.

    In this sense Obama’s sense of destiny is a problem. Europeans will talk a good show about global warming but back off quickly if the welfare state is threatened. Germany has plenty of windmills but still subsidises coal use via the Kohlphennig tax. BO and his crew think they can jump to a welfare state combined with a Green state. You cannot have both.

  3. Artfldgr Says:

    and if i hear cloward piven again.. i will scream…

    you can find their ‘strategy’ talked about bu churchill.

    most of it laid out in larger more formal form in

    Crisis and Leviathan, by robert higgs.

    and it is just a expression of the HIGGS THESIS.

    he mentions the ratchet… he lays it out even better..

    that government grows in periods of crisis, for example, war and depression. He demonstrates this with a detailed look at twentieth century economic history.

    Higgs’s thesis is so compelling that it has become the dominant paradigm for understanding the so-called ratchet effect: government grows during crisis and then retrenches afterwards, but not to the same level as before.

    This book is absolutely essential for anyone who seeks to understand the dynamics of government growth and the loss of liberty. The contents of this volume include:

    Part I. Framework
    1. The Sources of Big Government: A Critical Survey of Hypotheses
    2. How Much Has the Government Grown? Conventional Measures and an Alternative View
    3. On Ideology as an Analytical Concept in the Study of Political Economy
    4. Crisis, Bigger Government, and Ideological Change: Toward an Understanding of the Ratchet

    Part II. History
    5. Crisis Under the Old Regime, 1893-1896
    6. The Progressive Era: A Bridge to Modern Times
    7. The Political Economy of War, 1916-1918
    8. The Great Depression: “An Emergency More Serious than War”
    9. The Political Economy of War, 1940-1945
    10. Crisis and Leviathan: From World War II to the 1980s
    11. Retrospect and Prospect

    http://www.mises.org/store/Crisis-and-Leviathan-P138.aspx

    sigh

    notice the two ways to move the state one ratchet click at at time?

    near the end they just turn the ratchet fast…

    ==================

    To summarize Marxism:

    · It is Dialectical Materialism, or, in simpler terms: a God-expunged human reasoning process.

    · REVOLUTION is its goal, to “change the world”, Marx said.

    · The CHANGE is to be from a Theistic World View (Old World Order) to a Humanistic World View (New World Order). The term New World Order was a popular euphemism for world communism for years. Conspiracy kooks did not invent it. When it started to take on negative connotations, it was dropped for the nicer sounding label, Global Governance.

    · Change is to occur through CONFLICT, (Crisis/Problems/Issues).

    ==============

    The weapon looks like this:

    A Diverse Group (“Diversity” needed for conflict)
    Dialoging to Consensus (Dialectic process)
    Over a Social Issue (Problem/Crisis/Issues)
    In a Facilitated Meeting (Controlled environment using facilitator /change agent)
    To a Predetermined Outcome (Paradigm shift)

    thats enough to think about… as there is 100 years of texts that would fill a library that few have read…

  4. Artfldgr Says:

    “The institutions in socialist society which act as the facilitators between the public and private realms are the Soviet. They are the congresses [diverse groups], which facilitate the debate [dialoguing to consensus] of universal problems [social issues] in the context of the everyday.”[ George Lukaks

    and

    Since that “unfortunate” breakdown of conscience and the family structure, the social order is now dependent on “external control”. Read that, “The State”.

    and

    “The community of interest generated by crime, disorder and fear of crime becomes the goal to allow community policing officer an entre into the geographic community.”

    and

    Social chaos is the GOAL for the transformational Marxist. The crisis of crime and disorder is the door for the police officer as facilitator/change agent to enter the community (the “client”, or the latest term, “customer”)[13] and to initiate the paradigm shift! Even though these social architects plainly admit what is most vital in making for a crime free community, they have absolutely no intention of restoring “individual conscience” or going back to repairing the traditional family. On the contrary, for the past sixty years these socio-psychologists have been introducing these very dialectic concepts into our school system with the intent on demolishing personal conscience. Is there any doubt they have succeeded? For them, there is no going back:

    “They (Americans) may not yet recognize that there is no ‘going back to basics’ in education.” Training manual for Goals 2000.

    “If ‘Equality of Opportunity’ is to be become a part of the American Dream, the traditional family must be weakened.” Socio-psychologist James Coleman.

    “In order to effect rapid change, one must mount a vigorous attack on the family lest the traditions of present generations be preserved.” Socio-psychologist Warren Bennis in his book, The Temporary Society.

    and

    “The institutions in socialist society which act as the facilitators between the public and private realms are the Soviets.”

    oil.. restricting oil is not for any economic thing that is good… its to faciliate the fast move to a totalitarian state.

    but we are going to keep arguing as to the validity of the choice.. as if it matters…

    “In the role of the community ombudsman/liaison (i.e. facilitator), the community policing officer also acts as the community’s link to other public agencies. The police are the only governmental agency open 24 hours a day, which makes them the ideal public agent to begin regenerating community spirit.” [17]

    The Soviet:

    A Diverse Group
    Dialoging to Consensus
    Over a Social Issue
    In a Facilitated Meeting
    To a Predetermined Outcome

    neo, edit and delete as you feel needed..

    there is just so much stuff that almost everyone is COMPLETELY ignorant of…

    a lot above was recouched in rules for radicals and such but removed the russian labels for things.

    with mitsu and lee, and others harping on me, is it any wonder that i cant get enough out of books that are 9 volumes long (gramsci), in a paragraph?

    When Lenin was consolidating the Bolshevik revolution, he wrote how he would implement the communist bureaucracy without hardcore Marxist believers. While the elite rulers of his inner circle understood the structure he was building, Lenin said he would exploit the natural vanity and ambition of people to forward his agenda without them knowing what they were really doing. Eager to gain his favor and to enhance their political careers, they would fall all over themselves trying to promote his agenda. He called these types of people “Useful Idiots.”

    the point is that if you get sucked into the false argumetn.. your not going to be on the same level as the ones presenting and creating the false argument.

    do you really think they are that stupid that the average person can outthink them easily?

    everyone must since they keep arguing as to the validity of the choice in terms of the stated goals.

    and even when thy find that its completey off targetof the stated goals, they dont even question the despot and throw them out…

    no they sit and discuss over and over and hope.

    Who asked the citizenry if they wanted their communities “transformed” and their government “reinvented?” Who asked parents if they wanted their children to learn with their feelings instead of learning facts? Who asked your local police officers if they wanted their beliefs and attitudes manipulated? No one asked because if someone did, they would have been run out of town. Instead, using dialectic-reasoning skills, they have schemed to seduce, deceive and manipulate every community in the land into a utopian vision of so-called “unity in diversity.” These social engineers have no intention of taking America back to individual conscience within the family structure in order to preserve domestic peace and tranquility. That would mean a return to recognizing and submitting to the Higher Authority. This “vision” has failed wherever it has been tried. By participating in the dialectic, we have deified human reason; traded in God and truth for relative values and consensus; and abandoned individual liberty and inalienable rights for the common good and diversity. In the final analysis, we are destined for Totalitaria, and worse, the loss of our souls.

    The terms “communism”, “socialism”, “Marxism”, “New World Order” etc., may be worn out and abandoned. The names change, because deception is one of the rules of the game. Many erroneously believe that the cold war is over and that we actually won. But the revolution is still very much alive and America is losing. The culture war is raging in our schools, our workplaces, our media and our churches. Antonio Gramsci would be very pleased if he could see just how effective his strategy has been.

    yet how many went to the links i provides on gramsci?

    none… yet all told me to post links..

    america just lost… game over…
    even if there is a huge civil war, that will hasten our losing… galt will hasten it… mass protest will hasten it…

    give me one REAL thing that will slow it down..

  5. huxley Says:

    Artfldgr — Thanks for logorrheia! Get your own blog and post links to this kind of thing.

    No one is obliged to read your posts or your links. I can assure you that I won’t, as long as you continue to show such poor online manners.

  6. Lee Says:

    Now for the other shoe to fall….

    So. tell us, oh wise and infallable Art, you’ve constantly whined and cried about the problems, and their inevitable results. Now, for once, try offering some solutions. (And, BTW, why haven’t you suggested or implemented any solutions as you watched and Cassandraed the whole downward spiral?)

  7. FredHjr Says:

    Artfldgr,

    Even Vladimir Putin, back in 2000, called the AGW hypothesis “junk science.”

    The bottom line is that we are basing economic policy on energy policy and energy policy on a disproved scientific hypothesis. What these people (and it’s not just Obama) want to do is completely unnecessary. CO2 is not a pollutant. We have found the major cause for periods of climate warming: the sun. The evidence is clear. There are other causes too, but they are dwarfed by the sun. Deep ocean thermal activity is a significant contributor.

    Scientists, policy people, and concerned citizens who point this out are smeared as “deniers” and the scientists who disagree with “the consensus” have their jobs and reputations threatened. This thuggish behavior should provide a clue as to the real agenda of people like Maurice Strong: destruction of capitalism and the United States of America.

    For sure, there is big money at stake here, and that is why the people in Congress are hearing the opposing scientists and then promptly ignoring their counsel.

    This is why I am becoming all the more disdainful of politicians and of the science community in general. They have perhaps destroyed their reputations for good. I predict that the outcome of this policy mistake will entail the diminishing public trust in the scientific community. And they deserve it. They sold their souls out for cheap trinkets and put their minds at the service of truly evil people. God damn them all.

  8. Stphnd Says:

    I wrote this yesterday on protein wisdom, it seems to me relevant here:

    The economist Amartya Sen has demonstrated to my satisfaction that modern day famine (since the onset of the industrial revolution anyhow) has always and everywhere been caused by bad government, either directly or indirectly. Now famine is mostly a question of starving people and their animals to death for lack of food and drink. And in our times it is always unnecessary, but chosen for the purpose of doing harm.

    I believe by analogy that we are facing the starvation of the advanced economies across the world. For as food and drink stand to human beings, so does energy production stand to every economy. And the madmen now at the helm of many nations around the globe (though not all, India and China come to mind) appear to want desperately to curtail that essential meat of growth, plentiful energy. It’s sickening to watch. These men and women are evil.

  9. Artfldgr Says:

    Now, for once, try offering some solutions. (And, BTW, why haven’t you suggested or implemented any solutions as you watched and Cassandraed the whole downward spiral?)

    in order for any solution i would say to work, i first would have to get you lee to believe the situation your in.

    in other words, you are asking me to do the same thing to you that they are doing.. THATS HOW TRAINED YOU ARE.. [and i wont play that game of falsehood and who can make the best sounding argument over the game of merit till the game changes and we no longer can choose sides).

    basically you are saying… why dont you make up something that sounds really good so that i and others will side with you and we can fix things.

    but you havent heard anything that eeryone has been saying… you FIX things by not working to break them… adn these people in state are working to break them… not fix it… and even with 6 trillion in largess, linking food to fuel, promoting energy that dont work, and tons of other things.

    i cant get you to listen.

    YOU have all the answers, and take the high arrogant high ground while projecting to me.
    look at the language in your own post.
    who is actually trying to sound superior? (you – you sound like pontious pilate in jesus christ superstar!!! turn my water into wine and i will let you go free… thats all you need do, to prove its all true… cmon, king of the j*ws)

    who is refusing to sound inferior?

    (me, which is why you are upset. you are so full of self esteem that you hate when your target dont cooperate)

    huxley didnt READ what i posted..
    he figures if its long, it must be no good.

    Das Kapitol is three volumes long .

    Gramsci’s work is nine volumes long

    just reading the stimulus is one law the state writes, is 1000 pages long.

    [to add oesterpinsky, ceucescue, marx, trotsky, and about 500 political theorists who are not read in the west by people like lee, is not somethin gyou can summarize in a paragraph to the completely ignorant… lee, if you werent so ingorant, i wouldnt be so long]

    i cant summarize QED in one paragraph, and i sure cant summarize 100 years of crap and stuff in a paragraph.

    LEE, i have been telling you how to solve it. first dont vote for someone like obama while you still can vote… how did that go?

    now i am telling you dont knee jerk respond to the games… learn that they are operating one level above you, which is why you dont get why they are cutting all energy out. there is no acceptable answer at the level we are arguing with. [a con always is one level above. the invironment you find in a con is CONtrived. so if your arguing the argumetn they give you, you are not in a real thing… the whole energy thing is CONtrived, manufactured… as its situation is completely determined by the state!!!]

    learn the abstractions and the codes.. eveh fredhjr will tell you… many of the things we are discussing as different are synonyms. and if we cant tell the synonyms, how can we even discuss things? so learn is another missive to you to fix things.. how did that go?

    i HAVE been tellig you… you have been too busy olpposing me every character at a time, bcause you were taught by your keepers to prevent the counter revolution… that is they told you the fix was in, so just oppose the right… they are evil.. they aer facists… etc.

    the solution lee is for you to wake up.
    i have been working on that solution for a long time. after all, since my childhood… i was a member of BATUN (baltic appeal to the united nations – in an effort to free latvia and the baltics from soviet occupation… what have you done?)

    but you have to help in order for me to get anywhere, and i cant control you. so the best i can do is to keep hammering away. you have to entertain the principals and then refute them by their merit. not by their position, not by saying theya re too long, or i am arrogant, or that you have a personal story to tell, or its relative to something it isnt, and all those other things you and others use.

    and i never said i was infallable.. in fact, my inability to speak like cicero has made sure that you will not understand me… such is the ones raised on entertainment… even serious things have to be entertaining to you to pay attention. in that i am quite fallable… but when i am right, i am right… even if i believe myself infallable or completely fallible… it has no bearing on the validity of the argument, does it?

    why haven’t you suggested or implemented any solutions as you watched and Cassandraed the whole downward spiral

    I have, you and others hve been foiling it. as your teachers and keepers trained you in the collective schools. [which is why you never refute, you have learned that winning by any means is equivalent to winning by merit. and so you dont like it when you beat me down, and i dont concede a win. you are like the bully willing to beat someone up to get them to say what you want and then say you won. but the truth is, you can beat up any one you want, youc an compell them to say you won, but if merit isnt on your side, you lost. so being a smart aleck and not engaging me in a refutable debate is bullying… they didnt teach you how to debate. but i learned on the bronx sciene debate team.

    http://www.bxscience.edu/apps/news/show_news.jsp?REC_ID=79982&id=1
    this from their website about last year.

    The Bronx Science Speech & Debate Team Has Amassed Over 200 Trophies, Medals, and Plaques Since Start of Season in September / The Bronx Science Speech & Debate Team has amassed over two hundred trophies, medals, and plaques since September…and it’s only the middle of December!

    i was on the team back decades ago.. and you dont know anything about me now… you dont know who i am, waht i have or havent done, even if you have heard of me or not (though i will bet that you have seen my work… especially if you have read german and italian magazines)

    the only way to stop this, is to wake the people up.

    the only way to wake the people up is to teach them…

    and the only way to teach them is to keep hammering away at the same hard facts…

    the only way to do that is to go out and keep talking where they are… not sit in your home and create a blog where you hope that they will just wake up and then come to your place to learn.

    which is actually more delusional? me discussing where people are civil and listening, or me sitting alone in a place no one knows working my but off for no readers? (so now you know how stupid your suggestion is, huxley (if you think it out)).

    just as russia could not sit there and be content with their own state being commnuist.. and had to export that… to lay down and unoppose totaltiarianism is the whole of your argyument lee.

    i am in the feild, i have studied the subject to the extreme (even though it isnt my specialty). i spend my time teaching the receptive.. so i guess the jesuit thing is more sensible now.

    lee…

    what you dont get is that i could also choose to be a rahm emanuel, or one of the others!!! Ask Fredhjr, sergey, or baklava… ask them if i would make a very good fellow traveler that would be very respected as a thinker of doctrine (and still may be).

    read the paragraph on lenin above…

    I know the game.. i was raised from a child to know the game. all i need to do is show that i know, and that i accept it, and let them know.

    but right now… we are on teh cusp… right now, my state is not communist… and i can freely oppose things…

    but make no bones about this lee.

    once the thing changes and its not the state i lived in before, i WILL follow my new state. just as my parents followed the state it became in europe, then came here and followed the state form here.

    I will not oppose that machine, and i will wake up and think 10 impossible things and i will promote it… and i will do very well at it… for i have no qualms as to which system i succeed in…

    in fact, i could talk to my connected family in china, they have factories and are in politics there, and we have had interesting discussions as to philosphy and such when last i was there.

    i do not define the game…

    i only play it.

    right now, this is the game..

    later it wont be.

    how’s that for an answer for you?

  10. Artfldgr Says:

    Even Vladimir Putin, back in 2000, called the AGW hypothesis “junk science.”

    he knows since it was them that visited it upon us!!!

    after all… you didint get that the worlds biggest rapers of the land and polluters who have visited tons of genetic misery on their people are at the for front of the crisis?

    i posted gorbachevs quote that the crisis would be the global signal to coordinate the change world wide.

    and that was made a decade ago… now its here..

    if homosexuality and the left things that are here that are tearing us apart are the key things of marxism… how come all the marxist states dont have that? why do they refuse to drink from the same cup of their old failures?

  11. Baklava Says:

    Lee wrote, “Now, for once, try offering some solutions.

    Depends on the problem that is posed.

    If the problem is CO2. Nuclear power.

    Solar Panel manufacturing and distribution and chemicals required are another problem.

    Another problem with Solar is the lack of energy it creates in the dark / winter months. You need storage of electricity which is another nightmare.

    I too have a background in electricity.

    If the problem stated is energy dependency on other nations – then the solution could be something else.

    Obama’s plans again would create more misery, hurt America, etc, etc.

  12. Baklava Says:

    And btw Lee, I ‘care’ about America and it’s success.

    I care about people.

    Do you? 😉

  13. gcotharn Says:

    I’m w/FredHJR: AGW is junk science. I’d feel a little better about trashing our economy if:

    1) man made warming was an actual factor of importance (it’s not), and
    2) something could actually be done about AGW (even if AGW existed, nothing effective could be done).

    So, I find no silver lining, however tenuous, in the hobbling of the American economic beast.

    Also agree with Stphnd: famine is caused by bad government; what Barack is doing is sickening to watch; and evil.

    If I did not have faith that God is in charge, I would be lying in a fetal position and rocking and moaning in pain.

    What are our options? Only one which I immediately see: Repubs, as much as they piss me off, must sweep to electoral victories in ’10. Anything else continues the ongoing disaster. It’s a shame we have to choose between the lesser disaster: Repubs, and the unbelievable disaster: Dems.

  14. vanderleun Says:

    To modify Horton only slightly:

    “I meant what I said and I said what I meant…
    A Progressive’s faithful-one hundred percent.”

    And what a weird egg this guy is hatching.

  15. Rose Says:

    Artfldgr, I look forward to your information and input.

    Every day brings another ‘we are so screwed’ moment – and yet we are paralyzed. The entire landscape has been changed and no one dares contradict.

    Yet Obama is nothing more than a junior senator with a poor attendance record who has managed to fool the people.

    The daily water-torture drip of revelations about who and what he really is and what his agenda really is is more than I can take.

    I just hope the poor will realize his cap and trade is really a back door tax on THEM, and realize he has lied to them. But when I see what you have said about how they are likely to react, I know that hope is lost.

    In the meantime the media gushes about his lovely cocktail parties, and his wife’s fashions, and what soft drinks he prefers and dreams of sex with the Obamas.

  16. dane Says:

    Yes, totally ludicrous that so many believe in this whole 95% will get a tax break. He continues to stand up there (with an ever growing group of Yorkies pulling at the drapes) and say, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.” And people do as he says.

    Unfortunately there is no benevolent, if misguided, gent behind the curtain who has an alternate to get us home. No we are not in Kansas anymore, Toto. And it doesn’t look like we will be getting back there anytime soon.

    Instead I feel like we are all Hansels and Gretels. Obama has built a gingerbread house all decorated with candy to entice us in. I am afraid we are going to be eaten up.

    Does anyone remember the old “Twilight Zone” episode “To Serve Man” ?

  17. FredHjr Says:

    I appreciate what you write, Artfldgr. I can’t always read all of it, but I get most of it. You are one of the few in the weblog forums I participate in who knows first hand the deceptions that the Marxists engage in. I know it too, even if I never lived in a Communist country. I know enough about their proclivity for lying when I was on the Left many years ago.

    This cap and trade system was originally devised by the Canadian expat, erstwhile socialist in ideology and capitalist in methodology, Maurice Strong, who lives in China. He comes from a family that is filled with famous Communists, most prominent is Anna Louise Strong, Comintern member who actually had to flee the Soviet Union just before one of Stalin’s last purges (she was on the list of the proscribed) and eventually took up residence in China. Maurice Strong hates capitalism and the United States with a burning passion, because of the poverty he grew up in during the Depression. Even being a billionaire and very powerful man has not sated that passion. He wants revenge and I think it is what drives him at this point.

    I think Al Gore has fit in right well as his traveling dog and pony show. I believe Gore is motivated by greed and by the passion for revenge against his country. I think his political defeat burns within him. This is his way of getting revenge. Unfortunately, he has not been able to win over all of the scientific community. But he didn’t have to. Maurice Strong is the heavy lifter in all of this.

    And Georgy Soros figures in prominently into this scheme as well. Soros and Strong, the two billionaires, are reported to be “friends” and allies in life and purpose.

    They now have the perfect puppet for their purposes in the White House.

  18. Thomass Says:

    Lee Says:

    “Now for the other shoe to fall….”

    Simple.
    A: Its not really the problem some have convinced themselves it is.
    B: The solutions some have convinced themselves will work will not solve A: (too expensive).
    C: but, you always do have Nuke if you want to deal with A: (the problem) and it’s not B: (too expensive). The new designs are also safe.

  19. Cincinnatus Says:

    Ban people whose post is ten times longer then it needs to be.

    Didn’t Heinlein say a ban-hammered society is a polite society?

  20. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    “give me one REAL thing that will slow it down..” Artfldgr

    I’ll give you more than one.

    Science: Newton’s First Law of Motion, the inverse corollary of which is that, An Object at rest tends to remain at rest, unless acted upon by an outside force.

    Wherein the ‘object’ is society and where ‘rest’ is our allegiance to traditional American values.

    Religion: 85% of the American people define themselves as Christian, but for most Americans, belief in the foundational precepts of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” is a near religious dogma.

    If Margaret Thatcher was right when she observed that, “There can be no liberty unless there is economic liberty.”, then soon enough (2-4yrs) the American public will realize that the pendulum has swung too far to the left.

    Hubris: The left’s reach shall exceed their grasp. They greatly underestimate the opposition that their ‘coup’ shall create. Millions of Americans will never accept the imposition of tyranny. All they shall do is resurrect conservatism and reenergize their opposition.

    People’s pocketbook: Reach deeply enough into someone’s paycheck and you reap the whirlwind. Americans are generous and charitable but no one likes to be robbed.

    Another 9/11: Obama’s foreign ‘policy’ will embolden Al Qaeda and Iran. Iran will use Al Qaeda to destabilize Iraq, now that they know when it will be safe to do so. Obama’s announcement has ensured that.

    Iran will get nukes. Nuclear proliferation will greatly increase. When another 9/11 happens, Obama will not be able to blame Bush, for it will have happened on his watch…and it will all be laid at the democrats door.

    Providence: Look at history. Steps down and sideways for sure but overall it’s an upward stairstep toward a greater awakening for humanity. The dark ages led to the enlightenment.

    God did not create this country so that ultimately we might fail. Armageddon may yet come but in the end good shall triumph because ultimately, good is the only ‘real’ reality. Even the communist’s believe that their path shall lead to the greater good. Twisted for sure but their warped understanding of good is their motivation.

    You’re fond of making the commie’s, leftists and liberals out to be always ‘one step ahead of us’ Artfldgr…Machiavellian geniuses! But they are not omniscient, they do make mistakes and, big ones.

    There’s a reason why the bad guys inevitably lose that has nothing to do with providence. Evil is fundamentally in opposition to ‘effectiveness’, it contains within itself the seeds of it’s own demise.

    This is as true of today’s malevolence as it was in every other time.

    Things are looking very grim indeed and your warnings are well intentioned but the fight is not over. Nor shall freedom’s enemies ever extinguish freedom’s light.

    In the end, all they shall do is reaffirm American resolve to the proposition that, “we here highly resolve that these[our] dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

  21. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Sorry Cincinnatus, a proper response to Art required more than a paragraph or two:-)

  22. Lee Says:

    “the solution lee is for you to wake up.”

    In other words: “I can’t be a leader without followers”.

    “LEE, i have been telling you how to solve it. first dont vote for someone like obama while you still can vote… ”

    I didn’t vote for Obama, but 52-53% of others did. Apparently, they didn’t take your advice. Now you want me to believe I’ll never vote again. And it’s all my fault because: “you and others hve been foiling it”. Not your failure to lead, but my failure to follow you.

    “but make no bones about this lee.

    once the thing changes and its not the state i lived in before, i WILL follow my new state. just as my parents followed the state it became in europe, then came here and followed the state form here.”

    In other words: “Rise up, Lee, and stop it before I have to live like a servile stooge.”

    “in order for any solution i would say to work, i first would have to get you lee to believe the situation your in. ”

    So, you really don’t have any answers after all, just a desire to be accepted and believed.

    “What are our options? Only one which I immediately see: Repubs, as much as they piss me off, must sweep to electoral victories in ‘10. Anything else continues the ongoing disaster. It’s a shame we have to choose between the lesser disaster: Repubs, and the unbelievable disaster: Dems.”

    Thanks, gcotharn, at least someone out there has actual (even if only timidly offered) solutions to our problems, as opposed to art’s continual “it’s over, game over” carp.

    “I ‘care’ about America and it’s success.

    I care about people.”

    We survived the Civil War and FDR and Nixon. We need to be vigilant against Big Government, but this isn’t it. In fact, it’s usually the “solution” to the “problem” that pushes nations over the abyss (Caesar, Lenin, Hitler, Ron Paul,..)
    The more one cries of the coming “police state”, the more I question whether they’re mere agent provacateurs, to goad us into bringing about the very thing they claim we’re fighting.

    And if it does come down to servitude or revolution, Art, I won’t “play their game” and lie down.

  23. expat Says:

    The rejection of Kyoto by Bush (and the Senate before him, although that is not widely remembered) was a main reason for German BDS even before Iraq. I’m pretty sure that Obama thinks his wacko plans will improve his (not necessesarily our) image in Europe. People here still love Arnie because of his unaffordable environmental grandstanding. Obama craves adulation, and he very foolishly assumes his fawning fans will accede to his wishes.

    On the practical side, I doubt that Obama knows any more than Nancy gas-is-not-a-fossil-fuel Pelozi. He can’t deal in complexities, which is why he likes the intellectual world of grand theories.

    Neo–Did you see Sam Schulman’s piece on Obama as Hamlet at Weekly Standard? It’s very interesting.

  24. armchair pessimist Says:

    The enterprise is as mad as the forced collectivization of Russian agriculture by Stalin–and perhaps as fatal. If anybody from AQ is listening, this would be an excellent time to take out DC. I won’t be mad in the least. Promise.

  25. david foster Says:

    “Leadership in green technologies theoretically would give the U.S. something to sell to the rest of the world that cheap-labor countries like China and India can’t produce readily”…huh? China and India can’t produce long turbine blades with gearboxes and generators attached to them? They can’t produce semiconductors?

    I can’t even begin to imagine how someone could justify this assertion. I expect that to many politicians, all this “technology” stuff is just a form of magic, and the newer magic must somehow be harder than the older magic…

  26. david foster Says:

    Democrats say they want to save “good manufacturing jobs.” Well, there are many types of manufacturing which for which electricity costs are pretty important.

    I recently read about one Chinese company that moved a factory from China to South Carolina because electricity there was cheaper and more reliable. Guess they’ll be moving back soon…

  27. Stark Says:

    Is this what is called cognitive dissonance????

  28. Gray Says:

    This isn’t a problem that can be ‘solved’ it can only be survived. Instead of a longwinded bitching session, here are some things you can actually do:

    o Get in shape lose fat and get healthy
    o Take care of your teeth.
    o Learn a skill valuable to an underground economy–brewing; music; firearm repair; barbering; shoe repair; auto repair; knitting; masonry; candle-making; urban chicken-raising….
    o Cut down your personal debt.
    o Practice “doing without”
    o Put off large or expensive projects.
    o Save money.
    o Get needed repairs done on your vehicle.
    o Don’t let the tank of your car get below 1/2 full
    o Take money out of your checking account and stash it (securely)
    o Install locks on your home.
    o Become more mindful of your surroundings and safety.
    o Learn self protection.
    o Stick with like-minded people and provide mutual support.
    o Take care of those around you.
    o Get some God.
    o Get cagey–think slowly, thoroughly and patiently like a predator, not like a stampeded sheep.

  29. Artfldgr Says:

    i cant post… test…

  30. Artfldgr Says:

    Thanks Geoffrey, at least you are giving it the try!!!!

    and I had to come back after answering 4 pages, to say wow and that this is one hell of a wonderful try to get somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of what anyone, including myself will come up with will not beat 100 years of think tanks. So don’t feel bad when i am taking your points seriously and trying to answer them seriously in a way in which we can pick a point and go on from their in this marvelous contribution

    And buried in it all is a truth… but lets winnow first… (please do not get upset, you did great, and any place can be a honest starting point).

    Your Newton thing is nice, but meaningless, as it does not apply to masses of ‘particles’ [people] which do not follow a fixed set of rules. So while abstractions are interesting and seem valid, they stretch the concept and in this case, unlike conservation of energy and conservation of information, there is no law of motion in regards to people, masses, etc.

    Religion: 85% of the American people define themselves as Christian, but for most Americans, belief in the foundational precepts of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” is a near religious dogma.

    Which is why these concepts have been perverted over time. The MAJORITY of those who will say they are Christian, do not practice or visit. Of those who do practice and visit, each of them tend to make VERY bad theologians, and tend to align with the ‘brand’ that makes the kind of logical leaps that they are comfortable with. their lack of understanding in the principals and such, means that they let things in that shouldn’t be there, and don’t do things they should, and so on.

    The church has been under attack for a long time. Bella Dodd the leader of the communist party usa said that they placed many people into the catholic church, and by the time she wrote (its free online) school of darkness, she had pointed out that they are in the upper levels. so scandals over priests doing things that Kinsey did to his patients, are not so clear if you have read Dodd and others. Reading the quotes of Margaret Sanger as to using the priests in the black community to keep the blacks from knowing abortion was for their disadvantage.

    Now look at churches like Obama’s reverend Wright, and the liberation theology movements which have recasted Marxism into religion, and try to sell us on the concept that Jesus was a socialist. But in truth, Judas was the socialist; he sold Jesus out for some gold for the poor. You know, wealth redistribution by doing a bit of bad, to achieve something good.

    One only has to read what happened to the churches and synagogues in germany and Russia at the time when everyone went nutty to know that this is not a solution at all. Which is why they worked on it as primary in our culture destroying reformation of children.

    We forget that the old world and new world order lines had to originally do with god and man. The old world order was with god, the new world order is man as god. (I can look up the reference, its in a Misis paper recently written and sent out in the past few days).

  31. Artfldgr Says:

    ah.. answering is too long with a blog this thin… (and svelt).

    If Margaret Thatcher was right when she observed that, “There can be no liberty unless there is economic liberty.”, then soon enough (2-4yrs) the American public will realize that the pendulum has swung too far to the left.

    2-4 years too late. Without an external force, a communist state never falls.
    [They haven’t lived long enough to lose the plot like the Romans, nor will they once the moral one is not around and they all go at it, winner take all]

    I want to address this though. We have people sitting here expecting to be able to change leaders next election. Others who FEEL that when people realize CCC will happen.

    That is false hope, like lenins let down when the proletariat didn’t revolution and follow his cause, but instead laid there or opposed him.

    The belief that this will be possible has no bearing in an authoritarian state where they command what you eat, where you go, etc. The thing now is the dog and pony show so that they keep thinking that there is a choice and an election. But since we don’t give to people, but parties, we don’t have any choice. They are all CFR people from since before I was born. So the key has been in place for a while, I was only hoping it would take longer than my lifetime to change.

    Everyone analyses the options of these states as if they had our old limitations. Note I said old. Once this kicks, if it does (and I have no way of knowing only believing from what I see), those rules you take for granted don’t apply. I have said several times watch the video of the nyu protestors recently. They have no idea that they are arguing from no position, and that if this wasn’t a polite place still, no one would have wasted that many resources and time handling them.

    Hubris: The left’s reach shall exceed their grasp. They greatly underestimate the opposition that their ‘coup’ shall create. Millions of Americans will never accept the imposition of tyranny. All they shall do is resurrect conservatism and reenergize their opposition.

    Ah, and here we get to the first truth. in general, they take their mask off too early, but also in general, the saving grace your so used to having played over to you in the movies, does not exist in real life. just as you tried to use physics, here is one back at you, momentum, which does apply to events and so does lag.

    They are operating faster than the lag. The momentum of the peoples confusion will have them all flying in a straight line for a while. I hope the air men here will correct me, but if the other can turn faster than you can, then you will generally not win. While the public is confused, they have not the values you think they have to fall back on.

    Its not the old you have to worry about, it’s the young. The ones who were admonished to kill their parents in their sleep and make the revolution happen (ayers companion said this).

    So yes, their hubris will do this. But they are also not operating alone. The choices of moves, and what laws to make and such are the product of a serious game of chess played by think tanks and put in action. just as marketers work angles in how to get you to think that a 4 blade razor is a closer shave than 1, 2, or 3, there are hacks who sell you the ideological goals under the guise of other things using guile where the past ones used force. (but not having a rad in state is what kept them to this efficiency).

    Yes this can be the key area. Go through the threads and you will find me talking about the honey pot history between Russia, Romania, Indonesia and china. The hubris of Russia in using Vietnam to make Indonesia paranoid is a classic and taught case of how operations can go wrong. China was a forgotten wildcard and by the end of it, they lost it all, and have been working to get it back through religious means (note newsweeks cover this week), but the Indonesian people are much like people in the US were in the 1950s. Good, kind, etc… so they are not taking kindly to the terrorists, and they haven’t forgotten how the huge sweep that killed and imprisoned communists (the way they do to others) went.

    So yes, even a man who calls out MATE in 10 moves, can make a mistake executing the steps!!! We all make such mistakes… the question is will the opponent, us, know how to exploit the error, or will we be too confused to function as a unit and not end up killing each other while they watch and collect up the pieces afterwards. (thanks hegel)

  32. Artfldgr Says:

    People’s pocketbook: Reach deeply enough into someone’s paycheck and you reap the whirlwind. Americans are generous and charitable but no one likes to be robbed.

    I posted the source of the concept of FDRs forgotten man… the part that is key here is “that party A and party B decide what party C will do for party D” … that’s socialism, since party C, the people you and I are now talking about, are being compelled by the state party A and B to give up things for A, B, and D, under the premise of helping D. when socialism starts D is small, and C is large, as time goes by, A, B, and D grow.

    The trick is to keep people who earn a little in the dark about the 50% they are supporting, and let them think that because they don’t make a million, that they are D and will get something from C… In 100 years they haven’t caught on that they are C, I don’t expect them too now.

    But again, referring to our opening, they don’t follow physics, and so I am constantly surprised… (and that is a positive too).

    Another 9/11: Obama’s foreign ‘policy’ will embolden Al Qaeda and Iran. Iran will use Al Qaeda to destabilize Iraq, now that they know when it will be safe to do so. Obama’s announcement has ensured that.

    This is a interesting point. I will say that it’s qualified. That such a thing would depend on what happened in a great degree. Was it a group of people with guns going wild in Manhattan on motorbikes? Or is it Iran flying a nuke with a weatherballoon from a ship in international waters and cause an EMP strike? [note that Russia started collecting yellow cake from around the world in purchases the minute some of the scientists were cataloging these things as part of nuclear proliferation. The idea is to insure that their bombs have more than one finger print and preserve ambiguity. They LOVE ambiguity because it makes us argue rather than do something]

    Providence: Look at history. Steps down and sideways for sure but overall it’s an upward stairstep toward a greater awakening for humanity. The dark ages led to the enlightenment.

    History is what informs me, and its not in our favor… for your argument only depends in what age you live in. one can say just as easily that bright ages (greeks and romans) lead to dark ages, and the current bright age is over, and a dynastic dark age is to be here till people forget and the cycle starts anew.

    What actually led to the enlightenment was the work in the catholic church. Their decision to seek god in gods work (science for knowledge not commerce), that is what then brought forth the flowering. The other side of it was that the wealth got away from feudal control, and it has taken them till now to get it to gather back again under their umbrella. Just so show you what’s under your nose you don’t get, why do we need to store nuclear waste for 10k years? We have a space program… the only reason to do that is if no one actually intends to let us go into space, and have another US happen from another planet when control cant be maintained, now that they got it back. No?

    While providence is not in our favor, greed and desire to have nice gew gaws is, and is what started the prior periods of growth once we had enough pure science to understand the world, and capital to vote our own way.

    Even the communist’s believe that their path shall lead to the greater good. Twisted for sure but their warped understanding of good is their motivation.

    Read the quote above from Lenin. That is the line for consumption, it was never what it appeared to be. But was perfect for opportunistic connivers who had zero morals and reveled in pain and suffering as most people revel in flowers and love of music.

    You’re fond of making the commie’s, leftists and liberals out to be always ‘one step ahead of us’ Artfldgr…Machiavellian geniuses! But they are not omniscient, they do make mistakes and, big ones.

    Your right… they do.. just as we fail to analyse them from their position, they do the same. The past 60 years have been one frustration after another for them. but its been no picnic for us either.
    They are Machiavellian geniuses who expanded on the Prince in ways that make it hard to read if you never read the stuff… but that is also the weakness too, as Machiavelli’s character would also lose the power to think like the average man. Just as the sociopath has to learn to act normally to cover their cargo cult and manipulations, so does the Machiavelli character. Remember the brouhaha when putin kissed a childs belly? That’s a clue to things when the acting role fouls up. Obama doesn’t need facts, he has perfected the same kind of mechanisms that the illiterate use to get others to read for them.

    Their mistakes often come from our stupidity and naivette. But, in the past 20 years or so, the games angles have changed immensely. Open borders, open ideology, embedded socialism to distribute money to fronts and make them self sustaining, the acceptance of eugenics, euthanasia, and such…

    The problem is that the owners are no longer running the beast. When the soviets lost their edge, they lost the leash on their American things… which is why putin admonished the US not to make the mistake they did with the killings and such as he sees where we are going, since the dog was trained on the OLD stuff, not the NEW stuff which is more aldous Huxley and less bam bam flintstone.

    There’s a reason why the bad guys inevitably lose that has nothing to do with providence. Evil is fundamentally in opposition to ‘effectiveness’, it contains within itself the seeds of it’s own demise.

    Its more complicated than winners and losers, its more cycles…

    We are on an endless meaningless treadmill… there is no such thing as winning or losing other than if your lineage is taken off the table. There are no bad guys, there are no good guys, there are just survivors who procreate, and those that don’t.

    This is the truth of how it is, and if you look there are several intertwined human potentials in action here. Natural parasites, natural producers, and the majority of foils who as someone said recently here, seem to run on scripts.

    The first two are constantly in battle… it the good vs evil battle eternal with the parasites casted as evil (because we value productivity, leisure, etc), and the producers who are casted as evil by the parasites (because they must be cheating in a way that the parasites cant figure out, they refuse to produce and give to the parasites, etc). in between is the common man who just wants to live his life and is receptive and adaptable to each system.

    Since parasitism is not sustainable, you have a prey victim oscillating pattern going.
    But there is no winners or losers, there is just living in the time that reflects your nature.

    Now this isn’t relativism… but its where relativism is casted from… a valid truth perverted to a means. Relativism leaves out some points in all of this, and so is not made from whole cloth, and makes different conclusions as to the meaningless of the universe and what that means you can do. it’s the cargo cult version of what I am hinting at.

    This is as true of today’s malevolence as it was in every other time.

    Here is where history does not favor your point… you are taking for granted how we live. The history of man is brutal, nasty, and is nothing but man preying on man. Its why we are so smart!!!

    Stalin starved 10 million to death in one winter. How did the evil lose?
    That state collapsed and still is run by the same KGB/GRU people.
    So nothing really has changed much since even before the czars.

    Which another post of mine from a Russian pointed out that the same games that a famous Russian played pretending to be a ruler and tricking the people, is what they do now.

    Read vanity fairs recent piece on the problem in Iceland… you cant help that realize that they have Ethic behavior… its verboten to say so, but its so obvious its bizarre not to acknowlege it.

    The Han dynasty was 400 years… the Chinese refer to themselves mostly as Han people.

    How long will the Jong dynasty last? It doenst really matter how well the people do for this… they could almost all die off and as long as the leaders of the dark age go on, it does… in fact, their desire not to kill their cattle and not use them to spread their genes is what caused the inbreeding problem of European royalty.

    (something that the new burcratic feudal state of communism avoids – or solves depending on how you look at it)

    If the game is to spread genes, then it makes sense that all these people tend to kill off their subjects… no? kill off enough, spread yourself, and kill off more, spread yourself, and keep the dynasty going. the longer you do, the more you are part of the population.

    Anyon care to look up the percentage that stem from the harem owners? You will find that most humans are actually related in some way to one or several of these huge harems in history!!!

    The game hasn’t changed, it’s a treadmill. The methods and the tools have.

    Things are looking very grim indeed and your warnings are well intentioned but the fight is not over. Nor shall freedom’s enemies ever extinguish freedom’s light.

    Never said that it would. But what if slaves never are taight the concept of freedom? What if the lords in state never circulate among the workers/slaves? Then what?

    What if the words and concepts of freedom are removed from the language?

    These are all things that totalitarian states can do and have done and have been successful at, unless there is an outside.

    If you have nothing to compare to, you cant sense difference. Without freedom, everyone will just compare different levels of ownership rules. like slaves on different plantations might… oh, my masters allow me this… because the state gives us all rights… and my masters give me this right… yours give you those?

    Freedom is not on the table, because freedom is a concept in the old order coming from when we were animals and no one owned us.

    It may take a thousand or so years to reach the point you’re talking about.
    But it isn’t going to happen in the next two elections.

    There are hopes in all this… and you instinctively found them. but they are not controllable or able to influence in a authoritarian state.

    By the time the people might be able to do something, they no longer have the will, ability, capital, knowledge, etc to do so.

    I posted as to Russians who are still eating each other (article from Russian paper not western), and killing each other to earn cash by selling the house those who were killed were in. (and one woman that is hunting down look alikes on a facebook type site in russia, killing them, and then taking their identity to clean them out, then sell off their assets)

    I don’t know what will happen… i know what happened before.
    I know the principals in actions nad things… but I don’t know what will happen.

    I think the biggest factor you didn’t mention (or I missed it in another form) is that America is a land of guns, and free people who are/were allowed to use them. go to you tube and search for automatic weapons show… you will find good ole boys in the Midwest who get together on weekends to sit around and shoot out cars with a 50 calibre machine gun that’s fully automatic. (the vids cute with a young girl… but sad to watch knowing that at another show a gun got away from one and killed some people if I remember).

    The end game is always a wild card.. as what happened in indonsia.

    For all we know the spy agencies will save us and follow their mandate, which is to preserve the constitution… not serve the ruler…

    So there are all kinds of things that are going to be wrenches… but as I also said, this is not a one time, never done before process… you can buy the books to learn how to be a good termite too, and many have.

    Thank you for a VERY good conversation… it got me thinkng as to the real things that are what will help or make a difference.

    It certainly was better than trying to figure out why a man who just got to be president is stupid… as if that’s actually possible… (they are not stupid… ignorant yes, stupid no).

    And I second your ending comments…

  33. Artfldgr Says:

    “the solution lee is for you to wake up.”

    In other words: “I can’t be a leader without followers”.

    no it means that we cant talk and have a good debate on an ISSUE beacuse it all comes back to me when your talking. and i am not the ISSUE.

    i never said you should agree with me, i said that you should refute me if you dont.

    asking someone to refute you is not asking them to follow you… i do not think that if you cant refute me, you are mine.

    this is what i mean by wake up. your so bizarre in your conclusions and your obsession with me as a person before you can listen to ideas from a person.

    I HATE my own long posts… but i love conversations that are more than just back patting collectivism… and inevitably, depending on the level of knowlege in the group, the posts are either long or short.

    lee. tell me 5 links that i posted that you followed and read the whole of what i put up a piece of?

    did you ever read the free books i posted? any of them? or did you just do what every young collectivist does. ignore all points other than your own?

    i have addressed your points again and again… and the best you do when you try is to twist them around from not getting a common analogy as a means of transfering iformation (which would shorten my post!!!), and twisting that into me thinking i am einstein. no, i think i am a man and under god i am equal to einstein, even if i am not as great as him. i am often around famous and great people, they arent special in the way you think they are. (and there is a reason they invite me too).

    Now you want me to believe I’ll never vote again.

    no, you will vote.. it just wont mean anything any more… people vote in russia and china too… and in cuba… it just doesnt mean anything any more to the people in those countries (and for some reason they think it means something or we are fooled outside the country).

    In other words: “Rise up, Lee, and stop it before I have to live like a servile stooge.”

    no.. its not all about you… it means that i am not going to march to my death for a person like you! and all the others who decided this is what they want on some level. heck, they say its better to be a live lamb than a dead lion, but i say (from hienline) its nicer being a live lion.

    i dont know or care what you will do… i will survive. and no i dont think i am gloria gaynor. 🙂

    So, you really don’t have any answers after all, just a desire to be accepted and believed.

    no… just that any answers i would offer would be meaningless to a person with your attitude…

    and tell me, would a person be normal if they didnt have a desire to be accepted and believed on some level? do you prefer to be shunned and humored all your life? kind of dumb isnt it?

    And if it does come down to servitude or revolution, Art, I won’t “play their game” and lie down.

    oh yeah you will… how many here think he will or wont? anyone want to give a show of hands?

    anyone that knows what goes on in the real world want to tell him if he will play their game or not?

    lee… you played their game the minute you stopped learning valid history, art, sciences, and so on…

    britain mentioned the rennaisance… well the majority of those living in the rennaisance were ignorant and covered in filth… i dont see you, like me, trying to learn and be conversant in all those categories and be a full rounded really educated person in the molds of the founding fathers, and plato, aristotle, newton, einstein and so forth.

    if you took the time to actually learn those things and such, you wouldnt be taking the side on things you often take.

    one thing to note here… and other places.. the majority of those on the ‘right’ (a false dichotomy in classless america), are broadly educated, and informed, and tend to be older (more time to validate education and temper it with experience).

    the ‘left’, are narowly educated, tend to believe that it transposes to everyhthing, tend to be younger, tend to be feelers instead of thinkers, tend to be naive and inexperienced, tend to extrapolate that everywhere is like where they are, and everyone wants what they want.

    i never said my posts were short, or that i wouldnt want them shorter. but i dont see you taking one of them, and rewriting it in a way that conveys the same information and showing me how.

    when most do this, they tend to say what could be said in short, but they remove all persuasiveness and pretend that they would have swallowed it if i said it that way… (not bright and very ingenuous, no?)

    lee… if you can figure out a way for me to convey something in a shorter place witout lying as to the option, then i may learn from you.

    but as anyone here with a college education knows, philosophy, poltiics, war, and certain subjects texts tend to be VERY long…

    if you think i am bad, read gurdief…

  34. gcotharn Says:

    Smart Girl Politics video of the nationwide teaparty protest parties.

    At the end, those are determined Kansas City taxpayers marching through a snowstorm to Sen. Claire McCaskill’s office. To me: moving.

    Michael Corleone: “They could win.”

  35. gcotharn Says:

    Those people in that video? Those are my people.

  36. Tom the Redhunter Says:

    Artfldgr does seriously need to get his own blog. I delete rantings like that on my blog

  37. jim Says:

    I am confident that decent Americans will fight back against tyrannical scum like Obama.

  38. jon baker Says:

    NEO- now we see how the Dems may react once inflation kicks in:

    “Government price controls on basic goods have been in place, in various forms, since 2003. But the restrictions have forced Venezuela to become increasingly reliant on imports of these products as local farmers will not supply the selected food staples at government prices.”

    “Production quotas and prices have now been set for cooking oil, white rice, sugar, coffee, flour, margarine, pasta, cheeses and tomato sauce.

    White rice, the staple for many Venezuelans, can now only be sold at a price of 2.15 bolivares (71p) per kilo. Private companies insist that production of that kilo costs 4.41 bolivares (£1.46) and that government regulations are impossible to fulfil and companies will quickly go broke”

    From UK article pointed out on Drudge found here :

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/4938993/Venezuelas-Hugo-Chavez-tightens-state-control-of-food-amid-rocketing-inflation-and-food-shortages.html

  39. SteveH Says:

    “” jim Says:

    March 4th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
    I am confident that decent Americans will fight back against tyrannical scum like Obama.””

    The big obstacle seems to be a sicophant media controlling the narrative. A great experiment on this would be Obama getting elected and proposing an unbelievably radical agenda, then see if his approval plummets as word gets out.

    Oh wait…..He has…And the masses seem oblivious.

  40. jon baker Says:

    Looks like Chavez took over part of US Food producer Cargill today….

    http://in.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idINN0427170120090305

  41. Mr. Frank Says:

    Neo,

    I really enjoy reading your blog and many of your contributors. However, the presence of excessively long winded posts makes it difficult to follow and enjoy a thread. You may wish to consider some kind of upper limit on the length and/or frequency of contributions to any one thread.

  42. E Says:

    Gray, that was excellent advice you posted. We’re doing most of those things and it’s really helpful. It’s been hard watching the swift unraveling of the American economy and political system – kinda like watching someone pull a loose thread on a sweater and seeing it “unknit” before one’s eyes – and I don’t like the sense of powerlessness I feel. Taking control of the things I can directly control is useful, and productive.

    Maybe I’ll put “learn to knit” on my list, too!

  43. OsoPardo Says:

    There’s an old saying; “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” This seems to be the basic operational mindset of the “Green Revolution”. BHO seems to be operating from the assumption that new technologies will miraculously appear. At this point in time the US wind energy industry produces approx. 1% of the US electrical demand, and virtually all the prime wind spots are already taken. Getting to 2% will be a very difficult struggle. Coal provides about 50% of US electrical generation. Wind will never, ever get there… The really good PV cells (read expensive) are about 22% efficient. The type of cells most experts believe can be mass manufactured are on a level of about 12-16% efficiency. The process of taking the DC output and converting it to widely usable AC further degrades the efficiency. Now we need to discuss electric storage…. Also, not a pretty picture.

    The short story: These clowns are very deluded if they really believe that they can replace coal with wind and solar.

    I was recently at an Energy Mgmt seminar where some folks were pushing Denmark as the model. I asked how much the Danes were paying for electricity. The answer, about 50 cents / kwh. That’s 5X what we in the US typically pay…

    All you folks that are buying the BS. What will a 5X increase in your energy bill do to your family budget?

  44. Tom Says:

    Oh good. Geithner today inveighed against “tax breaks” for oil and gas producers on federal leases because their products contribute to climate change, and they can surely afford to pay more tax because of their rich profits.

    It is utterly amazing: we have pinheads in the highest posts of government. Ah well, we have them in the electorate too.

  45. FredHjr Says:

    Those of us who make over $75K will pay BOTH much higher utility bills and will pay the higher taxes to subsidize the subsidies that Obama and the Jackasses will give to those under that ceiling. So, we’re doubly screwed by this scam.

    But my larger point is that it is all so unnecessary, since it assumes the AGW is correct and we must be whacked hard for it in penalties.

    It angers me very much to see that discredited science is being used as a strut of support for a policy.

    I’m thinking that I have to do SOMETHING about this, because what it portends is truly awful. How can I form my own political group that agitates, lobbies, and publishes to advance the debate about this? I am actually not a political creature and I shake in horror when my wife says I should run for office. I want no part of that. But I want to organize something that will not allow this thing to be passively settled. I want the powerful in D.C. to know that we are not going to roll over on this one and that we’re not stupid. That we have command of the facts. We are trying to save our nation, its economy, and even science itself from destroying itself into the bargain.

    What can I do?

  46. Darrell Says:

    Gray, good points, to add a few.
    o Stockpile food and water
    o Salt
    o Water purification stuff
    o Extra propane tanks
    o Weapons and ammo if you know how to use them, if not learn now
    o Generator and stabilized fuel for it
    o Candles
    o Sanitary supplies
    o solar battery charger and rechargeable batteries
    o portable radio, hand crank if possible
    o medical necessities, e.g. insulin etc.
    o Make “bugout” kits from backpacks with basic supplies, store in cars so you always have it.

    As the coal plants start falling off line, the grid will fail to keep up with demand, shortly after basic utilities will go, then the fuel refineries, then the food shortage due to transportation problems…
    I hope it doesn’t happen, but best to be prepared to live self sufficiently for at least one month or more if you can afford it.
    A friend of mines book that is apropos:
    http://standeyo.com/Our_Books/DTP.html

  47. Oldflyer Says:

    Obama and his team are venturing out on very thin ice. I believe there are two category of outlays that Americans pay fairly close attention to. Those are gas prices and electric bills

    The economy, hedge funds, toxic asset bundles, upside down mortgages etc. are fairly esoteric concepts to a lot of people. The cost of filling the gas tank, or the monthly electric or heating oil bill gets their attention immediately. It is going to be increasingly hard to sell the idea that using the energy sources available to us is a bad thing. I will be really surprised if the voters are overly forgiving when the bills come due.

  48. David V.S. Says:

    Steven Den Beste wrote a follow-up essay last July.
    http://chizumatic.mee.nu/ghosts_of_my_past

    He provides some more details about energy alternatives.

  49. Roy Lofquist Says:

    Gray, I am already hoarding firewood.

    Neo, I am too old and crotchety to be polite – Arglesmucker is a troll and has to go.

    Now that I have that off my scrawny chest I’d like to say something about the “smart grid” – it is physically impossible. “Smart Grid” implies feedback mechanisms. Since anomalies on the grid propagate at the speed of light (in the medium) it is impossible to signal controls in time to correct the problem. The Texas grid grid almost crashed on 2/27/2008 because of a sudden drop in power from a wind farm. Fortunately they had spinning reserves to call on. Any significant increase in unpredictable power sources will bring the grid to its knees.

  50. FredHjr Says:

    I’m hoarding ammunition as well, in case a crisis happens and we have a civil war and have it out with the Marxists. I’m not the only one who thinks this way. We all hope it gets resolved by elections and that afterwards we can roll back most of what this usurper (his citizenship is still not established to my satisfaction) has done. But if a trip wire is crossed and we are plunged into a crisis, who knows?

    One way or the other, by fair elections or by civil war, we are going to have a showdown with the Marxists.

  51. Perfected democrat Says:

    “The economist Amartya Sen has demonstrated to my satisfaction that modern day famine (since the onset of the industrial revolution anyhow) has always and everywhere been caused by bad government, either directly or indirectly.”

    The MSM have been most instrumental in aiding and abetting this betrayal of our culture, lives and future. We can’t impact the existing Democratic Party junta until the next elections, but perhaps we can begin to change the expressions on people’s faces. I’m sorry to suggest, but afraid it’s coming true, that conversations on a personal level about these issues, even with friends and family, need to be accompanied with an appropriate level of open and honest hostility. An ODS campaign at the grass roots level is more appropriate than some may think. At the end of the day, stopping the Dem Party closet socialist and environmentalist “brown shirts” and their allies in the PC, the U.N. keffiyah crowd, is going to become dependent on how much individuals refuse to be intimidated into giving up their personal freedom of opinion and expression. Individuals in the MSM need a dose of honest and brazen contempt to shake them into responsible reporting. A lot of people need to buy a lot more guns and bullets; A campaign so extensive, that even a bloated government bureaucracy will be challenged to track them all. If we don’t ASAP stand up to these bullies, despots, and left-wing morons, they will just keep attempting to dominate our lives. This is fast becoming an issue of life or death, well passed notions of everyday “politics”….

  52. Perfected democrat Says:

    Fred, isn’t that interesting, I hadn’t yet seen your last post 1:44 as I was composing my last comment… It’s certainly indicative of the compelling nature of this struggle now…

  53. expat Says:

    Tom, re Geithner’s no tax breaks for oil and gas: That sounds a lot like direct interference from The One. It fits with Obama’s style and his need to put an I’m-in-charge stamp on policy, especially in areas where he’s way over his head. I suspect that Robert Gates probably gets this a lot. Obama has twisted this Team of Rivals thing into a way to feed his own ego. He just loves having control over people who are more competent. Whether you like Geithner or not, he is certainly more competent than Obama. With all that’s on his shoulders right now, I can’t believe he came up with this on his own.

  54. sergey Says:

    Can anybody give an example when expropriation of rich and redistribution of this wealth for poor improved welfare of the poor? I know a lot of examples when it ruined economy, but no examples when it improved anything.

  55. SteveH Says:

    Just what will be the unintended consequences of a 5x, or hell even 2x greater electric bill?

    Think of 300 million people with chainsaws and the trees that will cease to exist.

    I swear to God we have truly insane people running our country.

  56. br549 Says:

    FredHjr, be careful how far you take your sentiments in your 1:44 post. You may get edited.

  57. br549 Says:

    I suggest you simply scroll passed the long winded posts, Mr. Frank. There are enough control freaks in Washington, thank you.

  58. armchair pessimist Says:

    “A martial nobility and stubborn commons, possessed of arms, tenacious of property, and collected into constitutional assemblies form the only balance capable of preserving a free constitution against the enterprise of an aspiring prince”

  59. Artfldgr Says:

    Can anybody give an example when expropriation of rich and redistribution of this wealth for poor improved welfare of the poor?

    No

    There are no examples of forced redistribution of your OWN peoples wealth improving the lot of the poor. there are examples of forced redistribution of the wealth of a country plundered raising the standards of the main country (albeit temporarily).

    and this is a major point, these people think that another country is their homeland. they pine for a place they never experienced as a common person, and a place that doesnt actually exist. technically if your walking around with a false history, your walking around with the history of a world that doesnt exist, and are making choices and judgments from that world.

    and again, i am not a troll, i want short posts too. but i need the people who want short posts to go out there and follow the links and read the documents so that when they come back i can quote a line (not whole passages) – this improves the density of content without increasing the content. but if you wont read my long posts which put in those texts, then you wont read those texts either. so all this ammounts to is an ingenous appeal to a higher power to make the world they way YOU want and damn be rose, fredhjr, baklava, sergey, and others… all for people like mitsu, lee, mr.frank, etc. yes its clear to see a trend here, those who know history and know what i am saying, are actually tolerating reading it allagain, or seeing a different angle…

    its the never reads, who havent read it, will not read it and think the world is their for their pleasure, entertainment, and entitlement that are not interested in finding places that offer that, but actually seek out to change wherever they go…

    the problem is that they go to places that are not catetring to them. why is that? what are they missing in those places that they get here?

    oh probably the same thing they are trying to destroy. as if they succeed, this place will become boring and sterile like the places that cater to them that they dont want to be at.

    I call it “anti-intelligence gentrification”. Like wealthy people who move into enclaves of artists and musicians, or scientists, people who have sorted themselves out of the population naturally and have through that passed cache over to the location they inhabit, a kind of glamour. And now having created this illusion of meaning, the others who have no meaning, keep seeking these other places as if donning the clothing of meaning will create meaning in their lives. They come and they attempt to steal the reputation and keep some of it for them, and never realize that the reputation comes from putting in, not taking out. that it’s a side effect, not the point.

    Its cargo cult, going through the motions as if the motions make it real. living in an artists area or loft, as if the magic rubs off and they can become artists. Coming to physics sites, political sites, and other things and then, like the gentrification people, seek to change it and in so doing, remove what brought them there in the first place, and create what they are running from in their last place. like a giant eraser they go from place to place with no meaning, wanting to have the meaning they think they find, and then destroy it in the process of customizing it rather than accepting it as a whole entity which could not exist was it not for its complete dimensionality.

    They destroy whatever they love, and are sad little creatures…

    At some point you can no longer boil something down without removing the essential parts. And that’s the point their very process of avoiding actual mental work, investment in themselves, and more, create the constant cargo cult faking of things and the complete inability to reason through things. of course this is boosted by false self esteem given them not as a reward for empirical achievement, but as an illusion that they deserve an award for trying, who cares if you win or fail.

    (then they wonder why the politics are the same way!!! duh. If they were held to such things, they would hold their politicians for such things!!! But they have been taught that trying is enough and succeeding or failing is irrelevant, and their leader now act that trying is enough and succeeding or failing is irrelevant. Geniuses).

    They get tired of hearing the choir sing halleluia and cotton candy thoughts… but they only want real thoughts they like… (so they want to control speech)… but if they succeed, they create the cotton candy thing they hate. They have been made like the princess and the pea, incapable of tolerating normal reality that they hunger for, and so are in constant torment. Constantly moving towards what their genetics and biology say is critical, and then being so sensitive to it, that they cant tolerate it, and seek to fix it.

    I say it again…

    They destroy whatever they love, and are sad little creatures…

  60. Whig Says:

    here is some solace, I think.

    Perhaps the best thing, for `conservatism’ (ie. classical liberalism) is far Obama to live up to his radical plans: for the damage that he will do will be so great (especially given the slumping economy) that he will alienate enough people to repudiate 21st century `liberalism’ (ie. socialism) for a while.

    Just as G.W. bush did the same for conservatism (although Bush was no conservative)

  61. FredHjr Says:

    Cap and trade and AGW are an attempted fraud being perpetrated upon the nation by some renegade billionaires and NGO’s. It will amount the most severe looting of a nation ever in human history.

    If it came to it, we would be within our rights rebelling against it and a government that has abandoned our contract, the Constitution.

    I don’t care if my post gets edited, I’m going to say it: we need to have war with the Marxists and put them down like the mad dogs they are.

  62. SteveH Says:

    I can close my eyes and imagine our wonderful country without this marxist scurge. It is worth our very lives for our children to have that freedom and vision.

  63. physicsguy Says:

    A bit back on topic; my favorite exchange from the original Star Trek series:

    Capt Kirk: “Scotty! we need more power. Warp 10!”

    Scott: (with the thick Scottish accent) “Cap’n I canna change the laws of physics!”

    There’s a reason only 1% of the US energy is generated by wind/solar. Those sources simply do not have the energy density to fulfill any large scale needs. I mean, if I was a CEO of an energy company and I had the opportunity to build an energy source that would not ever need fuel, and then sell it to the public, why not?? If these sources were that good it would have been done long ago.

    Either, as some has suggested, BHO knows this and still wants to destroy the country. Or, like many of my students, he is so convinced of the “wonderfulness” of these sources, that even after being shown the reality, he cannot change his thinking. I see this all the time with the students.. thye just cannot make themselvs face the facts. I assume the only way it wouls sink in is if they tried to live in their houses with such energy sources.

  64. Tom Says:

    Whig: Obama’ roll is too too big a price to pay for the nation to return to classical liberalism. There won’t be enough left for us to return to for the rebuilding.

    I’m with Fred: Stop them NOW. By any and all means possible.

  65. Occam's Beard Says:

    Physicsguy, most people when discussing alternative energy sources have no conception of the relative magnitudes involved (which I’ve likened to paying off your mortgage by recyclling aluminum cans).

    Still less do they have any grasp whatsoever of thermodynamics (“Carnot? Doesn’t he play second base for the Yankees?” “No, that’s ‘Cano’.”), and if they did, they’d want Obama to repeal the Second Law of Thermodynamics, or at least add a loophole to it.

    But my very favorite nugget comes from nitwits who propose that we replace fossil fuel with …batteries. Priceless.

  66. unknown blogger Says:

    Some pretty disturbing comments on here Neo, seems the peanut gallery has truly gone off the deep end. Are any diagnoses of Advanced “BHO” Derangement Syndrome forthcoming?

  67. FredHjr Says:

    “Some pretty disturbing comments on here Neo, seems the peanut gallery has truly gone off the deep end. Are any diagnoses of Advanced “BHO” Derangement Syndrome forthcoming?”

    You collectivists don’t like it when turnabout is fair play, eh? Just one of the reasons, among many, why we cannot stand you people. For the eight years you tormented a good man, you’re getting is fed back right in your faces.

  68. Baklava Says:

    unknown blogger,

    How about if we point out that you don’t care about America.

    We care.

    😉 Is that torqy enough for ya!

    A debate on solutions will always have some playing identity politics (on both sides)

  69. Artfldgr Says:

    There’s a reason only 1% of the US energy is generated by wind/solar. Those sources simply do not have the energy density to fulfill any large scale needs.

    its the same reason that plants dont move..

    in other words, there isnt enough energy per unit to even allow movement. it takes bundling up the energy in many plants which have agregated the energy of many days… to create enough capital, that animals of size can move…

    if there were that much energy, there would be walking plants, or animals with energy conversion ability…

    to apply this to coal vs solar.. the energy density is just not enough to supply a mobile and moving econolmy as there is not enough extra capital to jump the chasms that come up. and each chasm unjumped or you fall into causes de-evolution to the sweet spot at the lower level.

    the OTHER thing that is even much more serious, is that it takes a certain amount of aggregate money in excess to be able to fund our forwad progress..

    that is, without this pool, there is no space program,. communications satellites, and so forth…

    there is a reason why china just sent its first moon mission… not enough excess capital and production and invention to go forward till they spent the critical amounts..

    if it takes 20 billion to build a fab before it even starts making something… anemic capital situation makes everything that would come from such, not possible.. EVER… till we climb up to that level.

    this was the problem with marx from the start. he saw and thought that machines would push out unskilled labor and that skilled labor would not open up things.

    his LACK of forsight was seen as prescient by those who were just as lacking in imagination and ability and even substance.

    he was just a more abstract malthusian… he could not see the progress that would constantly stave off state slavery… all he could see was stagnation for he himself did not hacve the galtian ability to change the world with PROGRESS, so he changed it with REGRESS and called it PROGRESS.

  70. Artfldgr Says:

    For the eight years you tormented a good man, you’re getting is fed back right in your faces.

    AND not only that, but the man they maligned was trying to prevent nuclear proliveration from iran, which now will have nuclear capability… and was trying to plug up the gateway from the worlds LARGEST weapons producer and seller, russia. (that is largest reported, and even larger unreported).

    want to stop the problem in darfur, middle east, etc? then you have to stop russia from constantly resupplying the despots and using them to destablize to drive up oil prices per unit.

    the biggest point is that because he didnt show his hands to everyone, including the opponents, the left baked him.

    now obama is on the roaster, and the MAJOR difference si that the things being done are not spins. that is where they lied about bush, its truthful about obama.

    unknown blogger, first decided to play the “us against them” game by trying to see if they can fish for a common thread with neo… go up and look at the different tactics by other means to try to influence and control the outcome by anything other than merit.

    the questino of derangement is not one of what your thinking out of context…

    if you were in the ukraine in a certin year last century, it would not have been deranged to be worried you would starve to death (like what will shortly happen in venezuela!)

    You collectivists don’t like it when turnabout is fair play, eh?

    no they dont…

    \because if they play fair, they are losers.

    and their morals and such are so bad that they think if they cheat and win, they are winners.

    quote obama:
    “i won”

    part left out:
    Nyah, nyah, nyha…

    they dont like the turn around because it says to them that they are so incompetent that even when they cheat, they cant win!!!

  71. Artfldgr Says:

    on another note, anyone want to list out all the democrats and left programs that bernie madoff is now known and reported to have funded? that is, he stole the money and had funded communism through the democratic party with it. so maybe my outlandish guess as to his reported connections with the cartels and the oligarchs in russia was not so far off… and that to actually have a legal case in court in the open would create intelligence and political havock.

    now we see the bernie madoff get out of jail card is the financiers equivalent of the madam running a whore house uses. And that the people he worked with facilitated the situation on both ends by feeding him people, and directing him as to where to place the cash to help the rise of obama and the new order.

    Clinton
    Corzine
    Dodd
    Schumer
    Kerry
    Markey
    Rangel
    Bradley
    Lautenberg
    Obama

    all recieved madoff funds to facilitate change through them.. (though everyone only thinks it was so that he could continue to steal.. but that is not making as much sense given that he really doesnt have much of it… )

    Among the more prominent recipients of Mad Money were:

    — Massachusetts Rep. Ed Markey
    — New York Sen. Hillary Clinton
    — Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry
    — New York Rep. Carol Maloney
    — Massachusetts Sen. Ted Kennedy

    — New York Rep. Charles Rangel
    — New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine
    — New Jersey Sen. Frank Lautenberg
    — Former Missouri Sen. Dick Gephardt
    — Former New Jersey Sen. Bill Bradley

    Madoff also hedged his bets and kicked in a few bucks to select Republicans, such as:

    — Former Texas Rep. Jack Fields
    — Arizona Sen. John McCain
    — Former N.Y. Rep. Vito Fossella
    — Former Louisiana Rep. “Billy” Tauzin
    — Former N.Y. Rep. Daniel Frisa
    — Former N.Y. Sen. Alfonse D’Amato

    As this list grows and more is going to be known.. we are going to start finding out that eh didnt steal for greed… for if he did that he would nto have all thsi help… he was stealing to help fund the revolution (unknown if he was complicit or made an offer he could not refuse)!

    now they are probably going to shut it all down and play hide the potatoe… after all if he was greedy, they could go after him… but if he was political, then going after him will do what?

  72. Artfldgr Says:

    While wages in the private sector have fallen on average by 17 percent since Jan. 1, bureaucrats have received a 30 percent salary increase during the same period, according to data from the Higher School of Economics. It is important to note that over the past eight years, the number of bureaucrats has grown by 70 percent to 1.7 million people. Meanwhile, the officially registered number of unemployed workers in the private sector is approaching 2 million people, although economists and other independent analysts put the number at 5.8 million. Nonetheless, the number of bureaucrats hasn’t decreased, with the exception of a few cases of symbolic reductions.

    the state’s bureaucratic machine is squeezing the private sector at the worst possible time — during the crisis. While businesses are compelled to cut back on expenses and staff as sales plummet and the inflation rate increases, bureaucrats across the country are stepping up their extortion demands on the most vulnerable sector of the economy — small and medium-sized enterprises. If bureaucratic extortion was considered more or less “a cost of doing business” during the oil-boom years, during the crisis these attacks are crippling, if not fatal.

    sound familiar?

    can anyone tell me which country they are talking about?

    in other words, based on teh facts and trends there, can you tell whether they are talking america, iceland, england or some other place..

    lee? any of the other lefitists? anyone? anyone?

  73. FredHjr Says:

    The anonymous blogger defaults to the familiar attitude of the collectivists you find at any university in this country and in Europe: censorship of views that are not politically correct. They decide what is offensive and what is not offensive.

    PJM today has a thread on gulag and Soviet socialist humor that is an absolute scream. You guys should check it out. The only ones not laughing at what is uproariously hilarious who show up on that thread are the well known Marxist trolls. Those people have no sense of humor whatsoever. I am reminded of some scenes from “Dr. Zhivago” wherein Yuri Zhivago tries to insert some levity in conversations with Bolsheviks when he returns from the front in the Ukraine and the visages of these brainless drones show no mirth whatsoever.

  74. Lee Says:

    Incredible that this: “I suggest you simply scroll passed the long winded posts, Mr. Frank. There are enough control freaks in Washington, thank you.”
    was preceeded by this: “FredHjr, be careful how far you take your sentiments in your 1:44 post. You may get edited.” Irony, or hypocracy?

    Boy, Art, you’re really starting to sound as paranoid as Nixon. You’ve even started compiling FOA’s (friends of Art’s,rose, fredhjr, baklava, sergey, ) and EOA’s (enemies of Art’s,mitsu, lee, mr.frank,) lists.

    “and again, i am not a troll, i want short posts too. but i need the people who want short posts to go out there and follow the links and read the documents so that when they come back i can quote a line (not whole passages) – this improves the density of content without increasing the content. but if you wont read my long posts which put in those texts, then you wont read those texts either.”

    In other words, you defeat your own purpose, then blame others for our supposed lack of attention span? There’s some pretzel twisting for you.

    Sorry, Art, but these two words from you sum it all up: “i need”. So, excuse me because I don’t come to Neo’s blog to stroke your ego.

  75. strcpy Says:

    “There’s a reason only 1% of the US energy is generated by wind/solar. Those sources simply do not have the energy density to fulfill any large scale needs. I mean, if I was a CEO of an energy company and I had the opportunity to build an energy source that would not ever need fuel, and then sell it to the public, why not?? If these sources were that good it would have been done long ago.”

    I’m reminded of a discussion I once had with an otherwise fairly intelligent person. I don’t recall now what the function he wanted some piece of software to do, I told him it was impossible. After a lengthy explanation from him about never using the word impossible I said it was a trivial proof that what he wanted was analogous to the Halting Problem (that is, take a program that takes any other program and it’s input and tell me if it will run forever or conclude at some point ). It is simply impossible to do – one can set up a problem that creates a paradox – in the halting problem you can set up a program and it’s input such that if it halts the program says it runs forever and if it runs forever the program will say it halts (much longer explaination on the web if you are interested). One can not make 2+2=11 ever work no matter how badly you want it too.

    Never could convince him otherwise because some smart guy may come along and solve it all. At least with the three laws of thermodynamics you can not 100% state that they will never be broken, but outside of mathematical paradoxes (such as the Halting Problem)there is little in our would that strong.

    And, lastly, I will point out that many +/- ten years of my age (35) probably received most of their environmental learning from Captain Planet. If you never saw an episode note that the villains (including the power suppliers) main goal is to pollute for no other reason to pollute. There are many that believe that. In order to understand that power suppliers would love renewable cheap energy one also needs an understanding of margins – too many do not understand that concept and believe that they want to charge a huge amount for their services (no, they want large margins). In places where the alternative sources work they use them, charge less, have huge margins, and make a MUCH higher profit – I’m certain they want that in as many places as they can.

  76. Baklava Says:

    Lee,

    Hey, don’t worry about the identity politics 🙂

    In short, the answer to your solutions question was:

    Nuclear

    That solves the energy and cost issues with one solution.

    Thanks for reading!

  77. Baklava Says:

    There is a reason why my power provider offers me clean renewable energy…..

    at a higher price

    Because even though the provider is subsidized it STILL costs them more and they pass the higher cost onto the customer.

    So… solar is good in small applications. There is solar panels being implemented ALL over the U.S. It is not a failing proposition.

    But it is NOT the alternative to Coal, natural gas, nuclear, or gasoline.

  78. Artfldgr Says:

    lee..

    your an ass…

    i come here because there are intelligent people.. and the ‘list’ was not compiled, i am not as stupid as you… i can remember the names of the peopel who just wrote to the blog.

    go read this…
    then let me know what you think.

    alexander Herzen and the birth of russian socialism, by Martin Malia
    www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showpdf.php?id=4538

    I am SURE obama has read this, and the other works… he was VERY influential at the time obama came of age and went to school

    his obituary here:
    http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/senate/inmemoriam/martinemalia.htm

    is an interesting read.

    you have been called out…

    this is the LAST time i will address you civily..
    you either prove yourself as worthy of my time to spend and debate, or your not worth paying attention to.

    i will not call to neo or others to have you removed. i will not spend any more time on you. you are not worth spending time on.

    you do not want to learn, you want to antagonize and play games and invert the situation to make someone else appear as you are.

    i just called you out here…
    you now have links, and an invite to discussion.

    you eitehr put up, or shut up as everyone will know you are lying on your points as to links to save space, and other.

    either go, read, talk competently
    or leave me alone as a manipulative liar and agit.

    your choice.

    and be forwarned… i expect debating rules to be followed. no ad hominem as you have been doing, real commentary on the subject etc.

    and if you decide to use one of your snarky answers that you dont ahve to play.

    let it be for noted that such a play would be an admission to being a lying ingenuous moron.

    are you ready to discuss?
    or are you a waste of space, time, and energy?

  79. Artfldgr Says:

    neo.
    care to make a boxing ring and to referee a REAL debate on an issue between people?

    i dont expect you to at all.. nor do i expect you to be interested… but if you are… you know my interest here.

  80. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr: No referee duties for me.

    I have noticed that you have tried to make your comments shorter, which I appreciate. But sometimes you do slip up and they are too long. I don’t like censoring people, and I think quite a bit of what you say has value and presents a very unique point of view.

    But if the posts continue to be too long I will have to delete the excess. Sorry about that, but you might want to start your own blog and post the longer replies as articles there, and then just post the links to them in shorter comments here. Just a thought.

  81. Perfected democrat Says:

    1. Sometimes Art gets a little long-winded, so-to-speak, as he is so passionately absorbed in the ideas he wishes to convey; While some of his observations range from the subtle to the brilliantly expressed more obvious. Sometimes I really love the way Art thinks and writes, but if I’m tired or too busy a particular day, I just scroll on by. I would suggest that others do the same, it’s up to Neo to “police” HER blog.
    2. There isn’t anything more inappropriate about Fred’s comments than there was when the founding fathers declared America’s independence and war on the king of England. If anything the issues now are significantly more compelling, at least the British were’t communist or islamist totalitarians. This is real life, and there are going to be real consequences. 48% of America is not going to succumb easily to the ideological malaise which has engulfed Russia, China, and most of Europe during the last century. Ironically, it’s parts of Eastern Europe, who lived the dismal left-wing way of life for most of the last century, but who are now leading the way there out. If push comes to shove, there are millions of us who are not going to acquiesce in a radical left-wing socialist police state in America. Thanks for the succinct, but inspiring commentary Fred.
    3. The greatest tragedy in this country now is how the Democratic Party has, over several decades since Vietnam, morphed into an insidious collection of dishonest, incompetent blowhards and shallow left-wing fools; Across the board, from their positions on energy and so-called global warming, to the mideast, international relations in general, domestic programs, and most of all economic policy. It’s difficult to understand how people who grew up in this country, and became educated, could have morphed into the vacuous left-wing political opportunists that they have.

  82. SteveH Says:

    Liberals will never understand how free markets are better suited than bureacrats at deciding the advantages of things like dominant energy sources at any one given time.

    The complexity of variables cannot be approached, much less accurately considered, by the use of central planning intellect.

    We may as well pretend our intellect knows better than a river which path it should cut.

  83. Lee Says:

    Lee,

    Hey, don’t worry about the identity politics

    In short, the answer to your solutions question was:

    Nuclear

    That solves the energy and cost issues with one solution.

    Thanks for reading!

    Did I ever mention baklava is my favorite pastry? And BTW, unlike some who take themselves way too seriously, I never get offended by what people I’ve never met think of any opinions I offer up here. I do love Art’s conclusion that since I disagree with him that the nation has been lost to the marxists makes me a “leftist”.

    “…some of his observations range from the subtle to the brilliantly expressed more obvious.”

    I agree up to the point where he cries that it’s all lost now. While I see problems with the way Obama and the obamatons are handling the economy, I really can’t think of any constitutional rights they have usurped. Rush Limbaugh may be labeled a virtual enemy of the State, but he’s not under arrest, and neither are any of us. We still have most of our firearms(yeah, not all of them, some worry there), and I haven’t heard of anyone besides terror suspects(actual ones) subject to warrantless wiretaps or searches. Hell, I make arrangements to buy weed over the phone, and no one has come for me.
    I’ve never challenged any of his facts, just his paranoid conclusions based on those facts. His tirades and rantings just prove my point.

  84. Baklava Says:

    Lee wrote, “I really can’t think of any constitutional rights they have usurped.

    1) Robert Byrd has sent a letter to Obama about that.
    2) If they change laws in any way disallowing the free market place in AM radio then would you be convinced?
    3) Is it constitutional to give an income tax refund to those who don’t pay an income tax… well… it may or may not be but like so many of Obama’s transformative ideas it’s morally wrong and hurtful to this country. Put’s more people in misery.

    Lee,

    If you don’t like Art don’t respond to him. You are in control of your own actions..

    You asked for a solution. You got one.

    Nuclear.

    What say you?? Talk about the ideas and solutions like you wish for so badly!!! 🙂

    N U C L E A R

  85. Gray Says:

    Darrell:

    Gray, good points, to add a few.
    o Stockpile food and water
    o Salt
    o Water purification stuff
    o Extra propane tanks
    o Weapons and ammo if you know how to use them, if not learn now
    o Generator and stabilized fuel for it
    o Candles
    o Sanitary supplies
    o solar battery charger and rechargeable batteries
    o portable radio, hand crank if possible
    o medical necessities, e.g. insulin etc.
    o Make “bugout” kits from backpacks with basic supplies, store in cars so you always have it.

    I was trying to be more practical–things that anyone could do. Things that don’t presuppose one already lives in the country with no zoning laws against most of the things you suggest.

    I was trying to stay away from kookism….

  86. Glow BULL WAR ming - Page 11 - PennJersey.info Forums Says:

    […] They will pass that money on to consumers. The rest is worth a read for your consideration: neo-neocon s energy proposals and your utility bills […]

  87. Lee Says:

    “If they change laws in any way disallowing the free market place in AM radio then would you be convinced?”

    That would definitely get my attention, but instead of reinstating the “fairness doctrine” which he can’t even seem to get a “consensus” from his own party about, he blundered and attacked talk radio directly. Now his error looks like it has cost him popular support among his worshipers for such a move. Not too worried at this time.

    “If you don’t like Art don’t respond to him. You are in control of your own actions..”

    I’m sorry…what were we just discussing above? I choose to respond to those I disagree with. It’s not that I “don’t like” Art; I’ve never met the man. I just won’t let his rantings and ravings go unchallenged.

    N U C L E A R

    You’ve convinced me. Now how do you convince your President?

  88. br549 Says:

    artfldgr:

    Don’t be too hard on people for not reading your posts all the way through. After all, no one read the bail out either.

  89. Baklava Says:

    Lee asked, “Now how do you convince your President?

    That’s not my goal.

    The president has an agenda. A left wing agenda where money is no object.

    His agenda is not about the market deciding. Nuclear costs pennies to the dollar versus Solar and will help people in the north much easier in the winter months.

    My goal is to teach more and more people the benefit of the free market and the dangers of big government social planning. It’s killing us. It’s giving more and more people misery.

    It’s hard to persuade people that because people THINK that because somebody ‘cares’ that their solutions must be better.

    But it’s better to teach a man to fish than give him fish. And just because the man who teaches is maligned as not ‘caring’ or understanding the plight of the hungry man doesn’t make that teacher man “less caring”.

  90. FredHjr Says:

    Time constraints affect how much of Artfldgr’s posts. Sometimes I can read it all. Sometimes I cannot. In the main, I find his thinking interesting and with respect to his grasp of Marxism and the Cold War he is dead on target. He understands a lot about how the cultural Marxists of today are eroding our will to preserve and defend our civilization. I can understand how there are times when he thinks he needs to take the time and length of composition to get his thoughts across.

    I’ve learned to be tolerant of literary style. I must admit that frequent errors of grammar, spelling, and punctuation are distracting – regardless of who writes it. I am not perfect in that regard. Sometimes I make mistakes and only see them after I have hit the “Submit Comment” key.

    What most annoys me about this topic is that there seems to be no fight in the dog to resist this scurrilous use of “science” to construct such a ruinous policy. The foundation is worse than bad. Therefore, we can debate and discuss all the factors of cost involved in the various means of generating electricity, and it will all be ancillary to the main point. I’m just stunned that this information about relative costs, the laws of physics and thermodynamics, and other technical issues are not robustly debated in Congress. It’s not rocket science. One need not be a scientist to read, understand, and appreciate the solid facts. Therefore, there are factors at work in the unfolding of this policy that the public is screened from. And I resent this massive deception.

  91. Darrell Says:

    Gray, I should have added, all of the stuff I mentioned I have had on hand for years to deal with a natural disaster, living in southern California it is very likely.
    Call it kookism if you want but its smart to be prepared for no electricity or water no matter where you live. Neo experienced a sustained power outage not too long ago. its also surprising how fast stores can be wiped out of stock in an emergency.
    Back when I started gathering his stuff it never occurred to me that it might be driven by nutty administration policy but, here we are.
    I am afraid they actually believe that a switch can be thrown and we can switch over to all this green power instead of that nasty coal.
    As we know, those solutions aren’t ready and wont be ready on the scale we need for decades, if ever. Policies to force us to start using those sources now by high bills and unrealistic regulations could lead to a disaster that can be hard to turn around quickly.

  92. Logern Says:

    [b]N U C L E A R[/b]

    fine, as long as you don’t want to put a waste dump in Nevada. I believe the majority of the conservatives here don’t support bringing it here either.

    In fact, I don’t know what area of the country wants nuclear waste, if you go that route.

  93. Logern Says:

    and by “conservatives here”, I’m referring to Nevadans.

  94. FredHjr Says:

    Logern,

    I’m not a nuclear physicist, so I am not well versed in the details of how it is done. If they’ve drilled out a very deep hole in bedrock (or whatever the formation) and propose to put the nuclear bi-product in there, how is it going to be dangerous to Nevada and the nation. I’m all ears, and I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt to enlighten me.

  95. rickl Says:

    To kick in my two cents’ worth, I don’t have a problem with Artfldgr. He seems to be extremely intelligent and almost always makes good points.

    Sometimes I read his comments and sometimes, if I’m pressed for time or lacking in attention span, I scroll past. That’s why God created the scroll button, after all. 😉

    As far as linking goes, it’s helpful to create an actual clickable link instead of giving a URL to copy and paste. I borrowed/stole the following bit of code from Gates of Vienna:

    (My Title)

    (Eliminate the parentheses. I put them in because, lacking a preview button, I didn’t know what would happen if I didn’t have them there.)

    I saved it in a text file on my desktop and copy and paste it into the comment box. Put the target URL between the quotation marks (keep the quotation marks), and substitute any word or phrase you want for My Title.

  96. rickl Says:

    Crap. Didn’t work.

    Here’s another try:

    My Title

    I put in extra spaces. The first and last phrases should read “a href”.

  97. rickl Says:

    Jeez.

    Awright, just go to Gates of Vienna, click on the comment button, then see the text just above the comment box. Copy and paste it into a text file and save it on your desktop for later use.

  98. Maggie's Farm Says:

    Friday morning links…

    Strange how many people are reconsidering joining Obama’s cabinet. The acclaimed Dr. Gupta just changed his mind, and two Treasury folks did too. What’s that all about? It’s possible that they aren’t sure they can get with the program. See Nobody w…

  99. sergey Says:

    Except insufficient amount of power that all “alternative” sources can provide, there are even more important considerations which restrict their use to only small-scale local needs: their insutability for grid. They are not reliable generators, their output wildly and unpredictably fluctuate in time, and grid operators can not know beforehand how much energy they should infuse to the grid so that consumption be equal to generation. This discrepancy makes frequency fluctuate too, and this is not admissible in most applications of alternating current supply. Only nuclear energy is free from this defect.

  100. br549 Says:

    The importance of dependable, affordable electricity in this nation is incalculable. In the heartland, fossil fuel powered vehicles are an absolute must. Same as any area of this country where great distances need to be covered.

    The lefty mindset itself cannot be supported outside of a city. Consider the ground space covered by a high rise building housing thousands. That same amount of ground space isn’t capable of growing enough food to support the number of people living on a single floor. A farmer’s ability to a city dweller’s needs.

    Government control and government dependency is all that would become of Obama’s plans. Even if that weren’t his real agenda.

  101. br549 Says:

    I do wonder, should it go that far, how our military could stay neutral. They are sworn to uphold the constitution from all enemies – foreign and domestic.

    Therefore, the lefties will have to scrap or completely change our constitution eventually. Because unless they do, the military will eventually have to say, enough.

  102. Logern Says:

    I’m not a nuclear physicist,

    I’m not either.

    But there’s been debates on several fronts, plus there are other issues. There’s the various transport routes coming from all over the U.S. where this stuff is passing near and through various communities. (and coincidently about two years ago we had a loose train car come barreling though the city railroad tracks giving a possible idea of the kind of things that might happen).

    The whole secure for 10,000 years is suspect to a lot of people. How do you guarantee those sort of numbers to anyone?

    Furthermore, as the State of original bomb testing/nuclear test site, you might think the locals would have a generally more favorable opinion towards all thing nuclear. But fact of the matter, original residents were led to believe A bomb testing would be safe and stood outside watching the tests.

    Anecdotally my dental hygienist told me how her whole family went outside to watch the tests. And at times caught the remnants of the dust clouds. Her entire family has had cancer. Except for her brother and herself they all died cancer related deaths. Her brother had prostate cancer but the treatment saved him.

    There are arguments whether the geological location is as dead as they think (earthquakes).

    There are certainly counter arguments to almost everything — for instance the natural runoff from the indigenous rocks is supposed to be about the same level of radioactivity.

    I might be forgetting some things. There are also issues with some of the approval process. Whether everything was done properly.

    Anyway, that’s generally the gist of it.

  103. physicsguy Says:

    As a physicist, the numbers basically show that we either continue with coal, or switch to nuclear. We’ve used up all the good hydro sites, and as I mentioned previously, solar/wind just cannot cut it. Fission is the only real answer; fusion is a pipe dream that will not happen without some new physics.

    Yucca mountain is, to my mind, a very good solution to the nuclear waste issue. I don’t see any problem with a low probability of a geologic event in the 10,000 year time frame. That’s a LONG time. I sincerely doubt we will even be around in 10,000 years; in fact I’m beginning to doubt we will be around in 10 years.

    The real problem, as was pointed out, is getting the wast to Yucca. That is where much higher probability events are likely to happen and with much more risk of large scale contaimination than anything that could possibly happen once the material is inside the mountain.

    This is all “academic” now as BHO has announced the cut-off of funding for Yucca, which is a neat way to stop all nuclear construction. Without coal, if he succeeds there also, we might as well all start living in the stone age.

  104. Baklava Says:

    Logern,

    Whatever….

    You want to be part of the problem?

    Or the solution!

    Can we jettison the stuff to the sun or is that a problem too?

  105. Artfldgr Says:

    bal;ava. the sun can eat the planet earth and burp..

    which is the point.. you dont need a 10k year facility that sucks money if your going to be in space regularly within the next 200 years.

    that is unless your not going to actually be allowed to exploit the endless resources of space

    dont have enouhg materials to make things? there are planets worht of materials all through the solar system… so the argumetn of precious resources also only holds if your going to keep us earth bound.

    making things is too polluting? well if we didnt stop the space program, you can eject the material into space… whoosh it goes… (just have to melt it and boil it off so each piece doesnt have enough mass to matter).

    and on earth? in 100 years the best location for mining will be the old garbage dumps in which things were made wastefully. so they are not a problem either.

    also ubiquitous travel would allow all kinds of energy methods that today would cost trillions… but would be a cheap adjunct to a space economy

    but thats the point, a space economy is a capitalist thing… its not under control.

    they dont want a repeat of that whole america capitalist freedom thing like last time..

    one another note.. they are taking a page from the communist subversive goaled franfurt school shrink adorno to make certain thinking a desease.

    that is, if you believe in captialism, you are mental. and so will have to go for treatment and re-education. it was and is a major form of control in russia.. (i can give a recent example).

    The idea that `climate change denial’ is a psychological disorder – the product of a spiteful, wilful or simply in-built neural inability to face up to the catastrophe of global warming – is becoming more and more popular amongst green-leaning activists and academics. And nothing better sums up the elitism and authoritarianism of the environmentalist lobby than its psychologisation of dissent. The labelling of any criticism of the politics of global warming, first as `denial’, and now as evidence of mass psychological instability, is an attempt to write off all critics and sceptics as deranged, and to lay the ground for inevitable authoritarian solutions to the problem of climate change. Historically, only the most illiberal and misanthropic regimes have treated disagreement and debate as signs of mental ill-health.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/printable/6320/%20

  106. Artfldgr Says:

    But if the posts continue to be too long I will have to delete the excess.

    i have said many a time, cut and cut if you can make it better… i have no ego in the game… i just dont know what others know and so cant guess what to leave in or out.

    its a very bad downside of being gifted as young. you spend very little time with contemporaries, and a lot with older people who humor you. then you grow up, and the lees come out, and you spend a lot of time being beaten up for the same thing you were wondefully rewarded for. you used to help, and htey liked you, now you help and they hate you. and you dont know why… eventually you learn its not you since you just want to share and help…

    so cut away… just make a note so i know what is missing and can learn from it.

    i am always wanting to improve and learn.
    despite being hated for it.

    i have spent my whole life in isolation because of my ‘skills’, talents, and abilities.

    so fear not that you will offend… a good editor improves and brings out the better work embedded in anothers work… and your a good writer…

  107. Artfldgr Says:

    but if I’m tired or too busy a particular day, I just scroll on by.

    imagine if you were my parents, sister or cousins. each one took turns with me to keep my mind fed. its a demonic punishment.. like being ravenously hungry and never being able to feel full. and the more you do it, the harder it is to find things that are interesting and that you dont know.

    so i am very sorry… i want to so bad write like cicero and be shorter. but i just dont know how to boil down things to the shortest AND meet the average level of people. i have no idea of that level, other than to guess… (most of the time i am actually quiet, as a person seems to prefer walking into a moving train on their own than being stopped by someone else).

    if i wasnt kept out of school for being the wrong diversity race and my iq in favor of others, i would have learned how to compose better as i would earn my degree…

    you can see the results. i am in a research place, but i am not a researcher. i work as a nothing, but i offer my brain to the professors here, who are amazed and are trying to bat for me. two of my items from a portfolio as big as lemelsons are being worked on. one is a solution to the problem of working with VAST amounts of data beyond peta bytes and bigger. another is new cheap calibration… while my current hard project is with phages, and sequencing programs i play with. (at the same time i am also a fashion/celebrity photographer signed to one of the 4 top agencies (the oldest)

    i quit music after performing at lincoln center and carnegie hall before i was 14… and lots of other things…

    so all this comes from a deep entusiasm for life. and a deep love of my fellow man… and its deeper because i am not seeing man as i wish he were, but in the beauty that he is.

    lee… want to know the truth?

    its not that i want to be adulated, followed or any of that…. that would be easy if i wanted to cheat.

    its that when your like this lee (and others), there is no one to talk to.

    i tested out in the 999th percentile…

    who can i talk to? they disconnected me from the place where all those people are. and if you see how mitsu acts, and lee, you can see that since i was cut out, i am not allowed to participate with them as they dont think that anyone can come from no degree.

    which is why i decided to single handedly boost the research hospital were i work single handedly like lemelson did for MIT. thats my goal. i have three big projects in, and if i get a license and such through it i finally have the proof to idiots they require).

    this place was one of the first and only places where a researcher refused to throw me away without first understanding my work.

    and once he took a few months to understand it and how its off base (like those insights you mention i have sometimes). which made it so elegant he didnt get it.

    after 30 years i have smoe people to talk to about all my work. i feel like riemans. bed ridden using my own math notation, re-inventing famous things to get my own work to work.

    lee… i dont want adulation, i want connection.

    i love people…

    and living like this all your life is very painful…
    and the only ones to blame are the social and psych researchers who proeseltyize how they know how to improve things..

    when their actions amount to experimenting on people witout having to get their permission as in a lab!!!!

    my child hood was made a mess by these people. cameras in class… cameras in the hall.. always under the microscope.. they wanted to know how to make lots of me, or induce what i have in minorities. they even put me with the criminally insane for a couple of years to see if i would make them smarter (one nearly collapsed lung later, 7 broken noses, and violent altercations in inner city schoos in the tremont area of the bronx, they finally let me be with my friends)

    so i am sorry i am so long.

    i am trying to learn.

    but everyone expects one to eitehr not be capable, or if you are able, then you should be capable at everything.

    i can do smoe really amazing things… a life time of blowing people away that way… but there are some simple things i cant do. like tell emotions on a face in a way that i can tell i am making them angry, or they hate me, or so forth… i can recall everything i have ever read or seen… but i cant remember someones name…

    my history knowlege and politics is one of my lesser areas. so i came out here to talk that, since it puts me closer to the average than if i dicussed things i am interested in (no one is interested in what i am, they all want me to produce something interestig for them or no go).

    right now i was working over lunch to showing how hawking radiation concepts applied to the universe can potentially explain dark matter effects without calling in odd dimensions or violating the old work. its a realization thing as to cosmic structure, like hawking realized something there.

    the other thing i have worked on was space time cavitation, and recently some work confirmed my hypothesis, but the math got away from me.

    after all, i only have a high school education.
    no degrees… i came from a poor illiterate immigrant refugee family, but was told i had all the advantages and everything was easy for me.

    and beaten up by everyone like lee who believes that too and that i get somethign i never got… so should be punished for having something i dont have.

  108. Artfldgr Says:

    I agree up to the point where he cries that it’s all lost now.

    and rather than say that, explain that, you did what? you have your reasons for not believing it, i have mine for believing it. rather than try to debate those reasons, you try to shut me down so you win by default, not merit. and i dont fold on anything else but merit. you turn the key on merit, i will flip so fast you will think i didnt care… and i dont… i only care about the valid anser… because the more of those i have the more competetn i am and the more chance i have of succeeding outside the protection of the white tower. and the more chance i can make a big positive change for the world.

    in other words, i have spent my whole life learning and studying so that i can make things that maket he world better. i can use that same devuiousness in the opposite directoin too.. (and people who do what certain peopel do, make it real hard not to go galt and say.. heck with it. you want to buy 60,000 computers so your heliocose machine can do the genetics instead of two of mine, go ahead).

    botteom line is that if you side with the side that is tearing things down, then your on their side, regardless of what your personal definitions of things are, beacuse your personal definitions are as meaningless as the philospophy a horse thinks while plowing a field for the master. your in essence plowing their field while thinking other things.

  109. br549 Says:

    artfldgr:

    Post away, my friend. I’ll read ’em. You’ve provided links to places I can go to back up what you say. Most don’t do that (me included).

  110. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr: Well, when I said I’d cut your posts if too long, unfortunately I didn’t mean that I’d edit them. I wish I did have the time to do that—to separate out the redundancies or extras and leave the heart of what you’re saying—but I don’t. I barely have time to do it with my own posts! So I would just leave the beginning bit and cut everything after that, I’m afraid.

  111. OsoPardo Says:

    Can I jump in here for a minute.

    The answer to America’s energy needs are nuclear. The problem of waste was solved long ago. Please see http://www.anl.gov/Science_and_Technology/History/Anniversary_Frontiers/alchemy.html

    Pay particular attention to the last paragraph: Note who was President in 1994 when Argonne Natl Labs’ focus was changed and the last sentance: “By then, Argonne’s original mission — to provide safe nuclear energy for civilian purposes — had been achieved.”

    Folks, you’ve been had. The issues regarding nuclear waste is a 1970’s argument that is still being circulated today. Your energy bill is a political football, not a technical issue.

    I’m an electrical engineer whose done work in many countries outside the US. I’m constantly asked why the US isn’t building more Integral Fast Reactors. My answer, “An amazingly ignorant populace coupled with a corrupt political class.”

    The kicker is. you and I have paid to develop these technologies only to export them around the world while we’re stuck debating wind and solar. No wonder the ROW thinks we’re stupid.

  112. Jimmy J. Says:

    The nuckear waste storage “problem” is nothing but a red herring. Spent fuel can be reprocessed and reused until it is quite depleted. The time it then needs to be stored is on the order of 200 years. As Oso Pardo says all this comes from the old fears of the 70s (Three Mile Island and Chernobyl) neither of which havwere as devastating as depicted by the environmental movement. It is also worth noting that the U.S. Navy has been using nuclear fuel for its ships for 45 years with no problems. It takes training and care, but so does operating a coal fired plant or an oil refinery.

    What really irks me is that Obama and his associates don’t seem to realize that energy production can be broken down into categories.
    1. Generating electricity – Coal, natural gas, hydro electric, nuclear, solar, wind and geothermal can all be used to produce electricity. However, solar, wind, and geothermal have major drawbacks that are difficult to solve. Hydro is not tapped out. Many of our dams here in the Pacific Northwest have capacity for more generators, but have been blocked b from installing them by – the Greens. Other areas of the country with secure water supplies and decent grades could install small hydro- electric plants to service small cities of 25,000 or less.
    2. Providing fuel for transportation – Oil to produce gasoline and diesel is king here. Ethanol from sugar cane, switch grass, or biomass have some possibility as alternatives to gasoline and diesel. Biodiesel is another possibility. Hybrid cars using a combo of gasoline, diesel, ethanol, or biodiesel and electricity run off a big rechargeable battery are in production, though expensive. And battery disposal is a future problem for hybrids. Further down the line are the all electric cars with ranges in excess of the present 40 miles without a charge, and eventually, a hydrogen powered vehicle. However, airplanes and ships are going to be using fossil fuels for a long time
    3. Fuel to heat buildings and water for domestic use. – Natural gas, propane, electric powered heat pumps, wood, and geothermal heat pumps are all in use today. In sunny climates passive solar design and solar panels can provide up to 60% of residential needs, but backups are necessary. Small windmills can provide some elctricity in certain windy areas of the country, but still a backup is necessary. The future probably lies with geothermal heat pumps for heating. There is some work being done on mini-nuclear units that provide both heat and electricity to residences, but they are for the future.

    For those who believe that wind power is a solution, take a look at Denmark. Several years ago they made a commitment to wind power. And why not? After all Denmark has a lot of wind. But they found out that after they built out their wind mills at large scales, they still needed a parallel, conventionally fired system of generators on standby to pick up the load when the wind ceased to blow. That is why they pay 5 times as much as we do for electricity.

    Unfortunately, all of us who frequent this blog know these things, but the Greens and Obama are living in a parallel universe where they believe technology unleashed will suddenly find a way to make wind and solar do everything. It is faith, not science that drives their beliefs. Den Beste has their number and so do we.

    The question is how do we change things? Send out information to your e-mail circle, write letters to your newspaper, write and call your Congress critters and Obama hinself. We have to raise a chorus of reason that is heard by enough people to turn things around in 2010.

  113. Jimmy J. Says:

    Sorry about all the typos in the previous comment. Went too fast and did not edit as I should have.

  114. FredHjr Says:

    Jimmy J,

    Understood everything in spite of the typos. A lot of good information about spent nuclear material that I didn’t know. The “Greens” (who are “Red” inside) have this country wrapped around their fingers. How in the world did this happen? I didn’t know that the Greens up there in the Pacific Northwest blocked additional turbines/generators on the hydro dams. Damn stupid, fanatical people!

    Yes, it truly is a religion. The religion of Gaia the Destroyer.

  115. Baklava Says:

    http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/energy/2009/03/10/how-france-sees-its-nuclear-powered-future.html

    French and Nuuuc ular

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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