Comments

Obama’s speech on health care — 115 Comments

1. I confess. I can’t watch the guy anymore. I think it was the “stupidly” comment about the cops that did it for me.

2. I turned on the TV to watch and listen – just so I know exactly what he said. After about half an hour of his (yawn) speech, I went over to LOL cats (http://icanhascheezburger.com/) – it was more entertaining.

3. just think.. in 100 years, their behaviors will be recorded as if it was fact, and the bad parts will be forgotten… they are posing for a future camera and not really us (it seems).

4. Audience Yells “Liar” At Obama During Health Care Speech to Congress!
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0PqBiNUyqU

5. I listen to Obama with the sound turned low.

   I hear this speech as close to a declaration of war on those opposing his bill.

6. I don’t waste time on low class TV comedy any more. I watched Married With Children instead.

7. Bravo! Neo goes droll:

   Financed on savings and streamlining the system. Something the government is famous for.

   Now he’s demonizing Congress itself. Well, can’t go wrong doing that.

   According to polls in the last few days The O. has lost or is losing independents, whites, and seniors. Now it seems he’s losing the rational (I know, but most of us were there, once) left.

   Paglia: http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/09/09/healthcare/

8. The Republican spokesperson was quite credible, and he had specific proposals. Obama is all style and no substance. Does anybody know exactly what’s in HIS bill? Where was that game changer we heard about?

9. I’m trying to picture what a 28% approval rating Obama is going to be like.

10. Would you buy a used car from this man?
    He is an accomplished liar.

    Bottom line is his vilification of insurors; an impossible scenario for insurors–no caps on coverage, only low co-pays, no cancellation of coverage; an unconstitutional mandate that everyone must have insurance; that (Trust him!) we will fund this by squelching fraud and abuse in ‘Care & ‘Caid; that we’ll have “Best practices” established by panels of the wise (if you call them “death panels”, you’ll be right). He ignores demographics, lets the malpractice lawyers have free rein. I could go on.

    Charles Boustany is a good man, a fine surgeon and a breath of fresh air in the Congress. I know him.

    Obama=Mugabe.

11. I only clicked over for the last 15 minutes or so but I was immediately hit by the I, me, my thickness. This certainly didn’t sound normal to me regarding past presidential speeches, except for Obama’s of course.

12. huxley,

    What do you mean by “war”? And how will it be different from the undeclared one he has been waging these many months? Just wondering.

    I’m sorry to confess, along with SteveH, that I can’t watch the guy anymore. My impatience begins with the geeky speaker ones regarding his style (unvoiced sibilants at the ends of words, for example, which by now strike me like fingernails drawn across slate) and extends to the serial lies he tells, his nose growing figuratively longer with each one.

    Fortunately, there are those who will have watched this thing whose reviews and comments I will trust, being familiar as I am with their previous opinions. Some of them will be on this site.

    Thanks to them for extraordinary service to God and country.

13. I listened to some of it on the radio on the drive home. My two cents:

    1) Didn’t really sound like anything different from before.

    2) Totally agree with your thoughts on Kennedy. Obama always likes to bring a personal story into his speeches. But, my word, why Kennedy?

    3) He said he would not sign a bill that adds to the deficit. Then he said the CBO scored this legislation at $900 billion. Am I missing something?

    4) He kept saying “my plan.” What plan? He has never introduced a plan.

    5) I got the general feeling he was a little off his game. Maybe it was just because I was hearing it over the radio and not watching, but he didn’t sound confident.

    6) Absolutely no idea where he is going to find these “efficiencies” unless he rations care. Bottom line.

    7) NPR reporters can’t shut up. Even while the president is speaking.

14. Oh yeah–and, with SteveH, I can’t get over the “stupidly.” Although again, in geeky speaker mode, I can’t get it out of my memory that he didn’t say “stupidly.” It was “stupidlih.” It’s a trope with him.

15. Did he really say we could deal with the costs by eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse? Is there a budget line-item designated waste-fraud-and-abuse? I guess so.

16. I think he said we could deal with costs by eliminating profit. Because profit is evil.

    Will Van Jones be running this new nonprofit health care entity? We can call it Green Care and “provide the greenest solutions to the poorest people.” Or something. Or whatever. Or communism.

17. That explains why i’m broke. I live in a country with a leader who deplores me profiting.

18. Anyone else notice how Obama started late? Does anyone else think this was a calculated move on his part so that the Republican rebuttal would be AFTER the next hour so that many viewers would “tune out.”

19. I think I watched about 5 minutes of the speech – He had a dramatic pause, dramatic choke up, and then his voice quivered just the *tiniest* bit.

    I have to wonder how it will go over. A lot of that is good when people believe or want to believe, throw them thier bone and many will figure out how to convince themselves it is Filet Mignon. However once that illusion is gone it looks like, well a bone and most feel betrayed.

    Clinton could get away with it – even though I knew it was fake it made me want to believe. He faked sincerity. Obama just looked like he was faking getting choked up – I do not think it takes much to shatter his illusion and even the True Believers know this to some extent.

    And then the end where I watched him where I think he truly was sincere and fired up probably isn’t going to play well outside of his base. By then you have a long speech interrupting the shows people were wanting to watch, I think the length of his speech may hurt even more than the content (contrary to what he seems to think most people do not want to hear him talk – nor is that a comment on him in specific, a thirty minute speech is rough when you like the person and topic).

    The next polls will tell – anything less than a 5 point jump is going to quickly erode and I wouldn’t be surprised with little change to a drop.

20. strcpy said : “a thirty minute speech is rough when you like the person and topic).”

    In my middle age I have come to prefer written text for most political things – I read far faster than people talk.

21. I have not watched him except for snippets since early in the campaign. It is easier to read him in print. The substance (or lack there of) without the jive.

22. Wow, Neo, how could you bear it? I turned on only music stations in the car and stayed far away from the tv until I knew the speech was over. I can barely stand to hear the man speak anymore. It’s not just his annoying method of delivery–its the endless lies and distortions and partisan blather presented as though it were somehow non-partisan.

23. huxley means that Obama is doubling down. I only heard snippets, but I expect him to fake right, then go left. That’s the only move he has.

    The speech was out this morning, and I have to think the market was reacting to that today. Health care stocks seemed to go up sharply. I interpret this as investors saying, the speech will fail, Obamacare is finished.

    I expect that if he escalates the political war, he’s not going to like where that ends up. Blue Dogs will not take a political bullet for him, and they can read the polls as well as anyone.

24. What do you mean by “war”? And how will it be different from the undeclared one he has been waging these many months?

    betsybounds: Much of politics is the art of bargaining. One starts high and then brackets lower and lower until mutual agreement is reached.

    However, this is the Big Speech in front of both Houses after a Notable Setback. Obama offers compromise on almost nothing and muscles down on his opponents in his usual thuggish way and in an even louder tone of voice.

    He could have done differently. He could have harkened back to the no red/blue America of his campaign. He could ate least offered a few head fakes. But he did not.

    Now, I understand that you and many commenters have written off Obama as a hard-core leftist out to destroy America.

    But even if he were a hard-core leftist out to destroy America, I think he made a mistake. He wants to go to the mattresses now instead of offering compromises and lulling us to sleep.

    Obama is going to see this through now. He has put his presidency on the line, he has declared war on his opposition, and I think he is going to lose.

25. Stephen Green 5:56PM Give me my plan or people will DIE!

    Hilarious.

26. I change the channel or station every time I hear a syllable of his vice.

27. right, huxley.

    Obama has made this game a straight win/lose proposition. No way out, no reason to compromise. He won’t be in any position to ask for quarter.

    Conditions are shaping up for a decisive contest. Believe it or not, now you will see people get nasty. And the Blue Dogs will have to choose.

28. The healthcare reform he described in the speech does not conform to what is in HR3200. So, he hasn’t read the bill! He was describing something much different. When he debunked the “myths.” Same thing – he doesn’t know or chooses to ignore what is in HR3200.

    There are supposedly three Senate versions. Are any of them close to what he was describing? No one knows. They apparently don’t want us to see them because we peons aren’t supposed to voice an opinion

    Stephen Green has it right. He did not unite anyone except the true believers and they are shrinking by the day.

    I’m still writing my representatives to tell them that what he described is not in any bill I have seen. Either there’s a new bill out there or the man is a pernicious prevaricator.

29. “I turned on the TV to watch and listen – just so I know exactly what he said. After about half an hour of his (yawn) speech, I went over to LOL cats (http://icanhascheezburger.com/) – it was more entertaining.”

    Charles, do you realize you’ve committed an Internet sin? Today was “A Day without Cats Online“. No cats, nowhere. It’s practically the law. You shouldn’t have done it.

    Of course, I already made my visit to icanhascheezburger before I even found out it was no cats online day.

30. My favorite moment of the crappy speech:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp4owvUFY1g

31. American Power tracked-back with, ‘Two of Three Americans Bought Obama’s Snake Oil’.

32. ‘he didn’t say “stupidly.” It was “stupidlih.”’

    Well, Betsybounds, it’s just his way of sounding like a folksy black preacher-man. Kid you not.

    Of course, coming from a Hawaiian, it sounds a little … weird.

33. Here’s Joe Wilson’s Wiki article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Wilson_(U.S._politician)

    If any of you are members and can edit the article, it would be lovely if you snipped out the bit calling him a “racist” for calling Ovomit a “liar.”

    Ta, all!

34. All the years the left called Bush a liar…….

    How dare Wilson come right out and say what everyone else in that chambers knows. The nerve!

    At the end of the day, everyone in there protects each other, with the occasional one or two being thrown to the wolves for the sake of the rest of them. Republicans and Democrats alike will now jump on Wilson. He will become the news.

    Joe Wilson for President!

35. I watched only because I went “all in” on the number of Obama lies in the speech being 25 or greater. On first pass as he spoke I counted 26, a number which has increased since.

36. Obama’s speech = EPIC FAIL!! LOL!! He was called a liar during he speach. Too funny. He has shown how devisive and petty he really is. This will be a one term wonder. I only hope we can contain or fix the damage he and the Dems have done to this country.

37. Neo said:
    It always amazes me that Obama presents his stimulus as having fixed or substantially helped the economy.

    geesh… its precisely the way the Dems put together the so-called “stimulus” (a haphazard collections of government funding goodies labelled “stimulus”), as well as its negative results (i.e., increased deficit with negligible effects), which ought to scare people away from this so-called “health care reform.”

    Oblio said:
    
    Obama has made this game a straight win/lose proposition. No way out, no reason to compromise. He won’t be in any position to ask for quarter.

    Conditions are shaping up for a decisive contest. Believe it or not, now you will see people get nasty. And the Blue Dogs will have to choose.

    I think this may be the moment the libs and “the one” go down like the “unsinkable” Titanic.

38. At the time of the speech last night, I was attending a community chorus rehearsal. At the start, the director apologized for making us miss the President’s speech. To my amazement, a rustle ran right around the room of muttered remarks such as “Yeah, right,” and “I wouldn’t have watched it anyway” and “He’s not going to say anything worth hearing!” Now, most of the people in the room were well over 60, which is turning out to be an anti-Obama demographic. But still. These are the kind of nice people who turn out to sing in a community chorus. They are polite people. Friendly people. Optimistic people. People who generally like other people and are certainly polite to them — yet they are so aggravated and frustrated by Obama that they were rude, out loud, when he was mentioned. Verrrrry interesting.

    I wonder how they felt when they got home and discovered that while they were singing Handel, their President had called them liars, demagogues, and bickerers for having doubts about his still-unspecified “plan”?

39. “Build on what works–why then, not adopt the Republicans’ suggestions? ”

    This morning I heard Michael Steele say that Republicans had offered over 800 amendments to the health-care bill and every one had been rejected. If that is true,,,,,,,,, so much for working across the aisle and looking for a bipartisan plan.

    “We will call you out!”

    I don’t think he meant only dissenters would be called out only for presenting inaccurate information. Any dissent? Intimidation? A warning to any and all dissenters? You have all seen the left go after those they disagree with. A picture of a pack of wild dogs comes to mind.

40. The small part of his speech I caught started right about the time he was going to be “calling out” the opposition when they “lied”.

    Honestly, I couldn’t stomach anymore when he sashayed into using Ted Kennedy as some means of attaining public sympathy (Chappaquidic Ted wrote a letter before he croaked – so obviously we MUST pass this legislation!), complete with a teary eyed widow posed conspicuously in front of the cameras.

    I did what I think most of the country did – I turned it to the movie channel instead.

    Thank God for satellite service!

    I did catch how when he delivered what I suppose were meant to be applause lines, the camera zoomed out to show half of congress sitting down and glaring at him.

    Just from that brief few minutes, I came to the following realizations.

    1) This was a crappy speech. No dignity. No *gravitas* (wasn’t that supposed to be important once, or was that just for the office of Vice-President?).

    It was just a crappy, cheezy, political stunt that will appeal only to hard core supporters.

    2) He was blatantly attacking his political opponents now, which I don’t recall ever resulting *bi-partisonship* in congress, but did not qualify in the few minutes I watched exactly WHY his opposition were to be considered liars.

    We should just take HIS word for it?!?!?!?

    3) The possibility of ANY of these health care bills passing congress with anything other than a strict party line vote just went from miniscule to snowballschanceinhell territory.

    4) The republicans may finally realize they are dealing with scum, and that said scum does not play by the political equivalent of the Marquess of Queensberry rules.

    It’s long past time for the republicans to grow a pair and start standing for something other than what a consulting firm tells them are the best re-election tactics.

    5) As has been noted before in this comment section by others, this is gonna be a one-term president.

41. Thanks for the reminder to go to lol cats (kcom, your link has an error). I don’t have TV and I needed the distraction. Even though I hate most cats.

42. Neo, regarding the use of the first person singular, “I”, see

    http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1651

    excerpts:
    “Consistent with Liberman’s analyses of Obama’s and Bush’s inaugural address and other important speeches, Obama uses FPS pronouns at much lower rates than Bush. During the first 6 months of their presidencies, FPS pronouns accounted for 4.35% of Bush’s words and 2.88% of Obama’s. Bush was significantly higher for all FPS words….A common misperception is that I-use is associated with arrogance and dominance. …If people want to emphasize their connection with their topic, they may increase their use of I-words. The use of I-words, then, links their connection of self to their conversational target. By the same token, people occasionally distance themselves from a target. Across multiple studies on deceptive communication, the best predictor of lying is a drop in the use of I-words.”

    The issue here is not healthcare reform, but the attempted delegitimation of a US President through personal, partisan attack.

43. The issue here is not healthcare reform, but the attempted delegitimation of a US President through personal, partisan attack.

    Oh, it is to laugh…

    President Obama may have to deal with personal attacks; it’s part and parcel of being President. But he has not come close to one-tenth of the vitriol that his predecessor got. (When CafePress starts selling pictures of President Obama with a gun to his head, and people indulge their fantasies by releasing major motion pictures DEPICTING him getting assassinated, then I’ll think there may be some parity here.)

    In re the speech: I am struck by President Obama’s willingness to denigrate just about anyone, if he thinks it will help him. He’s ticked off one union after another; he’s alienated his strongest supporters by reneging on the campaign promises they craved (Gitmo etc.); and now, in addition to referring to open debate as “bickering” (implying that those who disagree with his plan are squabbling children), he’s attacking the very Congress that needs to enact his plan.

    (Is there any core constituency he has NOT yet attacked? Hollywood, maybe.)

    Neo’s the psych expert, not me. But to me, this sounds a lot like a person who thinks his popularity will conquer all, and cannot imagine ever being unpopular.

    I knew people like that in high school; you probably did too. With luck, such people grow out of it. I’m not at all convinced that our President has.

    respectfully,
    Daniel in Brookline

44. Again and again this guys reminds me of that Thurber story, The Owl Who Thought He Was God. It’d be nice if heathcare was to be his big SPLAT!

45. To put it in old fashioned southern terms, Sarah Palin has really got Obama’s goat. For him, the POTUS, to even acknowledge her death panel remarks proves that she has completely rocked his world and not in a good way. Also, I believe that Charlie Gibson’s retirement is directly related to the way in which he spoke down to her during their interview. People saw his ugly elitist colors and stopped watching him. Palin is truly a force/voice to be reckoned with.

46. Pingback:Barack Obama Speechifying Fail: Dan Riehl And John Hawkins Discuss The President’s Speech & The Republicans « Blog Entry « Dr. Melissa Clouthier

47. Pingback:Barack Obama Speechifying Fail: Dan Riehl And John Hawkins Discuss The President’s Speech & The Republicans | Right Wing News

48. md – I have but one word for you . . . . NUTS.

49. “”The issue here is not healthcare reform, but the attempted delegitimation of a US President through personal, partisan attack””

    The delegitimization is being done by the disingenuous Obama himself. People are just finally pointing it out how corrupt he and his cronies basically are and increasing numbers are figuring it out.

    Every day the chances rise that this thug will get sent packing to Chicago before his first term is up.

50. Melissa Clouthier “The speech, like most Obama soliloquies was rife with Strawmen. Neo Neocon knocks ’em down.”

    http://rightwingnews.com/#post885

51. I wonder if md realizes how effectively he delegitimized Obama himself in the way he framed his quotation. First he told us that Obama uses fewer “I-words” than Bush does; then he told us that lower use of “I-words” is an excellent predictor of lying. The conclusion to be drawn from this may not be what md intended.

    Bush I’d, Obama lied?

52. JohnC,

    You been reading up on the Battle of the Bulge???

    It IS an appropriate response, though…lol.

53. I did what I think most of the country did – I turned it to the movie channel instead. Thank God for satellite service!

    My three-year-old loves her some Spongebob Squarepants. One thing you notice after a while is that his sidekick, Patrick Star, has a sort of stupidity that can sometimes seem downright malicious, to the point where you wonder if his intent is anywhere near as innocent as you’d initially assumed. And, of course, when called on the harmfulness of his idiocy, his only response is to double down.

    At least when Patrick does it you can just laugh it off because it doesn’t cost you a dime. Plus, he doesn’t have an army of admirers calling you a racist.

54. Regarding the FPS “I” issue, I have noticed that when your opponent is reduced to lengthy defenses based upon grammar usage instead of debating political philosophy in a discussion on political matters – it seems typically to be because they are losing the argument.

    And of course Mrs Whatsit’s observation just makes it that much funnier!

55. Scottie – yup, you’ve got it. 🙂 Battle of the Bulge it has been for me. And I agree 100% with your analysis above of the FPS ‘I’ issue.

56. JohnC – wonder who’s googling the reference even as we speak…lol.

57. In all fairness, I don’t quite buy the first-person-singular concept yet. If one politician uses it slightly more than another, I don’t see that as evidence that either is a narcissist, or that either is lying.

    (If one uses FPS 5% of the time, and another uses it 20% of the time, that might well be a different story.)

    Correct me if I’m wrong here… but hasn’t President Obama often used “this administration” the way others would use “I”? And hasn’t he often used similar circumlocutions to contrast himself (and his policies) to those of his immediate predecessor?

    Personally, I think that if a politician prefaced every policy statement with “in a break from the reckless policies of my predecessor”, that would be indicative — perhaps not of narcissism, but certainly of arrogance. President Obama hasn’t said that every single time. He has said it quite a bit, though.

    respectfully,
    Daniel in Brookline

58. After sitting through many of Ogabe’s speeches, I cannot do it anymore. He lies, obfuscates, demonizes his opponents, and just plain makes no sense whatsoever. TV has so cheapened and trivialized real debate and oratory that it’s almost useless as a tool of getting to the truth or sincerity of a speaker. During the JFK/Nixon TV debates, JFK came across better superficially but listening to the actual words, Nixon clearly was the better debater. Image has become everything. That’s why I prefer to read or just listen to speeches.

59. The elephant in the room is that whatever Obama says he wants or promises from the podium is IRRELEVANT. The bills have been written; only HR3200 has seen the light of day; all opposition amendments have been blocked.
    OBONGA’S ENTIRE SPEECH IS A LIE.

60. I am more than a little perplexed at this speech. It was before a joint session of the Congress. It was advertised as important to the debate. It was given to the Congress. It was a waste of time and effort.

    This was Obama’s last opportunity to sell the specifics of HIS healthcare plan to the country. But, it was more contentious than conciliatory and almost devoid of specifics. Those who are working in good faith to come up with a “workable” plan were demeaned as merely bickering over its provisions and should not be taken seriously. (How Olympia Snowe can continue to work in good faith on the plan given this unfair criticism is beyond me?) Those who are not truthful about it will be “called out” (what does this mean?). Worse, he did not present HIS plan. So, we still do not know what it does or does not contain. Then, he denigrated all those (mostly seniors) who appeared at the many town hall meetings in opposition to the plan so he is either unaware or doesn’t care that he is losing the debate with the public. He took a shot a Sarah Palin that missed, and by by a wide mark. And, worst of all, since he did not have his own plan in hand, we still are playing a “where is the pea” shell game with the plan. If you argue that the plan will cover the cost of abortions you get into an argument that it may be in some other bill but that is not in Obama’s plan (when you know it will be). The reality is that there is no Obama plan. He is selling himself and will sign off on whatever health plan bill the Democrats in Congress are able (or willing) to send him (if any).

    This was the wrong speech to make to the Congress. And, he will not be welcomed back if that is all he has to offer. Rather than give a copy of the speech to each person in attendance, as is the custom, talking points were given instead. I infer that that the speech was being worked on until it began, and perhaps even as he was talking. Who writes the stuff that he reads off the tele-prompters? We give Obama the approval and blame for what he says (because, after all, it comes out of his mouth) but we still don’t know if he is reading what he wrote. All in all, if his approval rating continues to slide this will be looked on S the moment he went over the cliff.

61. The “S” at the end of the last post is supposed to be “as”. Sorry.

62. @betsybound – unvoiced sibilants – since I don’t/can’t listen to the man, can you give some examples? Google gave me some information, but none of it meanginful!

    @JJ formerly Jimmy – I am going to steal your wording in your post and use it today! Thanks for putting it into so that I don’t need to reword it.

63. i guess no one read those passages in george keenans analysis that shows they are acting EXACTLY like the soviet leadership in the ol days. EXACTLY… even to the point that everything else is to blame for things not working, that its the right and fascists… its so much a replay of russia that its like watching the upgraded version of “great expectations”.. the story is the same, the time is different, some details have been reviesed and characters remolded, but same story. or its like watching the upteenth variation of “christmas story”.

    one only has to read the paper from 1937… to see it.

    and even funnier/sadder after you read it, you realize how it happens, because the people today, refuse to learn it, they refuse to read it, and instead make up their own explanations for it while sitting in a nut shell.

    so to watch people fumble around like this is painful. as long as they are ignorant, they sound erudite… which has gods infinite goof written all over it…

    among the blind the guy pretending to see is king.

    while the one eyed man is called a fascist, racist, and no one hears what he says… that way he is equal to the blind masses and does not alter the course of the blind man pretending to be a sighted king…

    laughing and crying…

64. BTW, anyone wanna make a guess as to how far The One’s approval rating and/or support for *Health Care Reform* falls in the polls at about 2 weeks from today?

    Every other time Obama’s spoken out the poll numbers have dropped, and I see no reason for this to change now.

    I’m guessing his personal approval rating will drop another 1 to 3 points, but probably not much more as he’s already lost most everyone except his core supporters.

    Those core supporters will blindly follow him even if he sprouts horns and a tail and takes to carrying around a pitchfork.

    Regarding public support for *Health Care Reform*, I figure it will lose another 5 points or so.

    All guesses of course, as I freely admit I’ve overestimated the discernment abilities of the American public in the past – most recently around November of 2008…..

65. I am more than a little perplexed at this speech. It was before a joint session of the Congress. It was advertised as important to the debate. It was given to the Congress. It was a waste of time and effort.

    This was Obama’s last opportunity to sell the specifics of HIS healthcare plan to the country. But, it was more contentious than conciliatory and almost devoid of specifics.

    Steve G: Yes, you’re entirely right. Obama had no new specifics to give on health care. It was basically the same speech he’s been giving for months now.

    It was nothing that both Houses needed to hear. It was simply Obama as mafia chief showing his authority by demanding attention, by expecting obedience, and by threatening his enemies.

    At the level of content, the speech was a disgrace. At the level of display, it worked to keep his base and supporters in line and some charged up. However, I doubt it did much for people in the middle — perhaps a momentary advantage to Obama.

    But for those of us who oppose him, we know that we’re in a knife fight, here and now, and no one’s going home to get a gun. It will be bloody and painful. Whoever loses, gets maimed.

66. (1)My countrymen, men and women, (long pause) Changes of Government have occurred frequently in history, and in the history of our people. It is certain, however, that never was a change of Government attended with such far-reaching results as that one year ago. At that time the situation of the US was desperate. We were called upon to take over the leadership of the nation at a moment when it did not seem to develop towards a great rise. We were given power in circumstances of the greatest conceivable pressure, the pressure of the knowledge that, by itself, everything was going to be lost, and that, in the eyes of the noblest minds, this represented a last attempt at healthcare, while in the eyes of evil-wishers it should condemn healthcare movement to final failure. Unless healthcare could be saved, by a miracle, the situation was bound to end in disaster. For during a period of 8 years, prior events had moved downwards without respite.

    hows that for a speech?

    (2)“It had once more become a humiliation to confess publicly that one was an American. While fully respecting the essential character of our American tribes we have strengthened the authority of the US as the expression of the common will of our people’s life and have made it supreme.”

    that sounds ok… no?

    (3)“So let there be no doubt: The future belongs to the nation that best educates its citizens – and my fellow Americans, we have everything we need to be that nation. We have the best universities, the most renowned scholars. We have innovative principals and passionate teachers and gifted students, and we have parents whose only priority is their child’s education. … No government policy will make any difference unless we also hold ourselves more accountable as parents.”
    

    and this…

    (4)“The Education movement has laid down the directive lines along which the state must conduct the education of the people. This education does not begin at a certain year and end at another. The development of the human being makes it necessary to take the child from the control of that small cell of social life, which is the family, and entrust his further training to the community itself. … It is the duty of the community to see that this education and higher training must always be along lines that help the community to fulfill its own task, which is the maintenance of the people and nation.”
    

    or this

    (5)
    …our movement was something quite different from all the existing and incipient parties of the time. It was a movement that declared for the first time and from the very outset that it had no intention of representing the definite, clearly outlined interests of individual classes. It did not stand for town or farm. It did not represent Catholic or Protestant interests; nor did it represent individual sections of the country. This was a movement which was definitely centered upon the concept of the American people. It was not a party, sworn to uphold the right or the left, attempting to divide the nation, but one which from its very beginning had no thought for anything but the American people as a whole.

    So who said all this?
    Hint 1: its not one person

67. I an an American living in France and enjoy great coverage which is amazingly efficient and cost-effective. It is a system with a public/private mix. Everyone is covered (French citizens and legal residents). It is (by definition) portable, so there is never a problem with pre-existing conditions. And, it is affordable, ie: if you are working, then you pay your part; if you become unemployed, you still receive your medical insurance.

    The bottom line is that we, every American, have a moral obligation to make sure the less fortunate among us are not deprived of the basic medical coverage which most of us enjoy.

    How we get there is up to us. Let’s put aside political differences and get the hard work done to have a system that provides medical coverage for everyone.

    Tom

68. Definitly a partison speech. He didn’t have to call Palin a liar. He was also contradicting himself by saying competition will keep health costs down but that a non-competitive public option is necessary to keep insurance companies honest.

69. Lie: “I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future. Period.”
    Fact: CBO Scoring says the plans on the table will add at least $200 Billion in deficits over ten years. Beyond 2020, the scoring gets even worse.

    Lie: “Nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have.”
    Fact: The CBO says at least 3,000,000 people will lose their coverage under any of the plans being put forth. Other estimates have ranged as high as 88,000,000. And that’s not a bug, it’s a feature. The goals of these plans are to saddle insurance companies with so many mandates that premiums will have to go up and drive people to subsidized government care. Pre-existing conditions are to health insurance what drunk drivers and teenagers are to auto insurance; what do you think is going to happen when companies are required to cover them, but not charge them more than healthy people?

    Lie: “Don’t pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut. … That will never happen on my watch. I will protect Medicare.”
    Fact: Obama and congressional Democrats want to pay for their health care plans in part by reducing Medicare payments to providers by more than $500 billion over 10 years…

    Lie: “Under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions.”
    Fact: The Capps-Wasman Amendment to House Bill 3200 explicitly allows the Secretary of HHS to subsidize abortions with Federal funds as part of the public option. Democrats have voted against amendments to block abortion funding under the House Bill.

    thanks moonbattery…

70. Tom, that sounds great, and I’d love to know more about exactly how the private/public mix works — can you point us to a primer? However, it does bear noting that France is a considerably smaller and more homogenous place than the United States — what works there may or may not work here.

    As for your statement that “How we get there is up to us,” I’d love to agree, but the difficulty is that we were told last night by our president, in no uncertain terms, that this is not so. How we get there is up to Him, and anyone who questions His approach has been labeled a bickerer and a liar who can expect to be “called out” — whatever that may prove to mean.

71. He is, that’s what’s been his m.o., he can never really admit what’s in the bill

72. Jennifer Rubin in Seems Like Same Old, Same Old asks:

    And we therefore return to the key pre-speech question: Why did he give it? It is even more curious now, given that he did not formally toss the public option under the bus, and if anything, he ramped up the partisanship. At best it was an effort to stem the panic on the Left and show how “tough” Obama is. (Hence, the angry tone and excessive shouting.) But a speech isn’t governance, and the people don’t want government running their health care. So not much is different today.

73. its health care related… 🙂

    its really funny despite being done before…

    i love the last line…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NWtBhSp74I

74. I always laugh when I hear that I have a “moral obligation” to do such and such for my fellow man.

    Such examples of *morality* are always dependent upon the mind of the speaker, and do not necessarily agree with my own sense of morality on the issue.

    As long as these morally upright folk want to provide out of their own pocket for their fellow man, it’s fine with me.

    It’s when they want to start digging into my own pocket that I have a serious issue with what constitutes *morality*.

75. “all opposition amendments have been blocked.”

    A democrat staffer has told me that “Over 100 opposition amendments have been added.”

    I asked him to verify that statement and he provided this link, I found it interesting and thought you guys would as well.

    http://republicans.energycommerce.house.gov/news/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=7325

76. Daniel in Brookline: For me, it’s not simply how many times Obama uses the word “I.” I think I recall reading somewhere that if you do a strict count, he doesn’t use it more than most of his predecessors. For me, the objection is the manner in which he uses it. All “I”s are not created equal.

    A simple statement such as “When I visited Russia, I saw that….” or “Back during the campaign, when I said that….” or “I have asked that Congress approve of…”—-those are not the problem; all presidents do that, and it’s perfectly okay. But I have never heard anything from a president or presidential candidate remotely resembling the way Obama habitually uses the word “I” (except, perhaps, for John Kerry, the subject of some very early posts of mine such as this one—scroll down especially to my analysis of “sentences 9 and 10” to see what I’m talking about).

    It’s in paragraphs such as this one that Obama’s narcissism (as well as his thuggishness) is apparent: But know this: I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it’s better politics to kill this plan than improve it. I will not stand by while the special interests use the same old tactics to keep things exactly the way they are. If you misrepresent what’s in the plan, we will call you out. And I will not accept the status quo as a solution. Not this time. Not now.

77. i gave examples of another that did that.

    which one was obamas?

78. Dear Mrs Whatsit and Scottie,

    Since I am speaking from 9 years of living in France, I speak about my own experience, however, I would give you the link: http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/index.html. France provided the best cost/quality, the USA was 37th…

    Universal, government coverage is required for everyone and covers most of your regular needs and most hospitalizations. things like contacts, shoe insoles, special dental work, etc, are covered by the private supplemental insurance, called mutuels. This mutuel might be a no-cost or low-cost benefit from your employer. Mine is no-cost.

    And the costs (which you do not, in the end pay) are quite low. A 30 minute visit with a doctor costs less than $40. A visit to the dentist for a cleaning and an x-ray costs between $40 – $50. Those are the real costs, and again, you get reimbursed 100% or just give the doctor your medical card and don’t need to do anything (it depends on the IT setup of the doctor…)

    What works here may indeed not be the right answer for America (although France is not sooo small with 1/4 the population of the US and has a very diverse population? additionally, Europe is much larger than the US and each Eruopean country has universal coverage.). But as for America, so many other countries have solutions that work well, it is worth adapting the best to the American-way rather than listening to fear-mongers talk about horrors in England (no one in Europe thinks that the English are getting it right).

    As for Scottie, if you do not agree that we have an obligation to make sure every American has medical coverage, then I simply ask you (with all honesty) to point to the person who does NOT deserve to have medical coverage. And if you honestly believe that you have no calling to help others, then I wish you the best of luck in your life.

    Regards,

    Tom

79. After 8 months of being ammused at liberals practically worshiping this Obama guy. I have to wonder. Do those same people watch reruns of Leave it To Beaver and think Eddie Haskel is the main character of the show?

80. Dear Tom Lansford

    Read John Stossel’s debunking of that who study. It’s really rather stupid of you to be quoting it.

    You’ll see how silly you look.

    We deal in reality here.

81. Don’t be lazy…. You can find it…

82. I’m off to read the study and the debunking, but on my way let me just gently point out to Tom that the statement that users of health care in France don’t pay the costs in the end is, well, bunkum. Of course they do, either through taxes or the private premiums. Even in France, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

83. Tom, you leave out the fact that France’s healthcare system is chronically understaffed and going bankrupt. You might also research on cancer survival rates since that’s where the US blows every other nation out of the water.

    You might also read this article from the ‘conservative’ BBC regarding the vaunted status of France’s healthcare system as of today. Not a pretty picture. Certainly not the picture we should permit Obama to import here.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2150103.stm

84. Whoops, I see that Tom was right and that users of French health care have not, in fact, been paying for it — and it’s going broke as a result.

85. Tom Lansford,

    International studies ranking the US way down low on various lists are nothing new – and as pointed out are often easily debunked.

    Anyway, the surest indicator of quality of medical care may better be who goes where for what procedures, as well as where many advanced procedures originate from.

    Me, I’d rather go to the Mayo clinic if I need a procedure they specialize in rather than a Cuban clinic and hope for the best.

    The US seems to be the destination of choice when extremely difficult and/or advanced medical procedures are involved.

    Nuff said on that count.

    ———

    As for the “no cost” issue, this is ignoring a very important factor.

    Taxes.

    It’s not really “no-cost” as SOMEBODY at some point has to write a check to cover the procedure.

    If it’s the government writing that check, they have to take the money from somewhere, and that somewhere is going to be the citizen’s pocket in the form of taxes.

    So, it’s not really “no-cost” at all, and as so many have expressed concern regarding the plans circulating in Congress right now, these plans are all guaranteed to drive up taxes in a massive way that cannot be sustained in the long term.

    ———-

    Regarding the whole *morality* thing, feel free to exercise the largesse that suits you, and pay it freely out of your own means.

    Just don’t even think about trying to guilt me into agreeing with you that I should do likewise, and then reach your hand into my pocket for my wallet.

    As I noted earlier, morality is based largely on individual perspective. I suspect you and I will never agree on what is “moral”.

86. Tom says:
    And the costs (which you do not, in the end pay)

    I find the statements like this inexplicable. (And coming out of adults, who are – theoretically at least – supposed to practice budgeting for themselves and their families)

    So who is this mysterious creature, Tom, who do pays these bills? Is it a Specter of Communism that still lurks in Europe? You realize that doctors and nurses and apothecaries are being compensated, right? So where’s the money coming from?

    But please, don’t tell me the whole population of France, and especially the people who produce and earn the most (and therefore taxed the most) are happy to pay outrageous taxes and pay your medical bills for you. I know, you think they do it because they have a “calling to help others”. I’m afraid you might be shocked to know their thoughts on the matter…

87. Dammit Mrs Whatsit – you beat me to the punch once again!

    (the tax angle, that is)

88. Tom. Here’s what due diligence looks like

    http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2007/08/29/another_bogus_report_card_for_us_medical_care

    and this one…

    http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2007/08/22/why_the_us_ranks_low_on_whos_health-care_study

    Knowledge is power. Tom has none.

89. Baklava,

    NICE reference!

    Next time I need brain surgery I think I’ll head over to Morocco, Cyprus or Costa Rica, since according to this “study” Tom referenced, these nations had better health care than the US did.

90. Next time France needs somebody to save their butts, maybe they can call on Costa Rica to ward off Germany….

91. Hey all, I’m being belligerent and funny on purpose…

    Of course we’d probably save France from disaster again..

    We do so because we are a better nation…

92. Baklava,

    The US would save France because of…ahem…a sense of “morality”….

93. Tom,

    the problem is Obama is further left than the French… or even Sweden (which also has a private / public mix). The US Progressives have said they want to use the public option as a stepping stone to single payer. For them, ‘fairness and equality’ are more important than the moral goal of providing a base line of medical care for everyone.

    I support universal care / coverage…. but forcing everyone to have equal care is not only not important to me, I think it is counter productive… as the wealthy and middle class’ willingness to spend more on their own care (vs. what they will vote for in a collective care system) helps bring extra capacity on line that can later also be used by the poor… inequality tends to raise everyone’s boats… Re: those with means will pay more for more MRI machines so they don’t have to wait a month +… but then we all end up with more MRI machines per person than countries with only public care.

    The bottom line, we should have a ‘public care’ option… by providing public funds to buy private insurance for those that need help….

94. Thomass,

    How about a tax credit targeted at minimum wage type employment, to be used for medical needs instead of direct funds, with anything left over at the end of the year going directly to the recipient of the tax credit as cold hard cash?

    I could go for that.

    There would be a built in incentive to use the system sparingly, as the less it is used the more cash is provided at the end of the year.

    Of course, in exchange I’d want every cent paid by the individual on health care who has private insurance to be 100% tax deductible as well.

    This would not cover profits by for-profit medical establishments, of course, as they’d still be taxed as they are now.

    If every cent is deductible, then the taxpayer may be more inclined to use those services more.

    In the end this will put more money in the pocket of the private medical industry which can then use that money to acquire more MRI machines or whatever.

    As more procedures are performed the overall cost will go down making such procedures less expensive and thereby making those very procedures more affordable even for the very lowest economic rungs in society.

    Ain’t a free market great?!?

95. Tom Lansford Says:

    “As for Scottie, if you do not agree that we have an obligation to make sure every American has medical coverage, then I simply ask you (with all honesty) to point to the person who does NOT deserve to have medical coverage.”

    a previously healthy 20 something with cable tv, a new car, who spends a lot on clothes, who eats out a lot, and who decided not to buy insurance.

    I’m not sure they deserve the public bailing them out… rather; I say give them care but make them declare bankruptcy for being an idiot / irresponsible.

    When I was 20 something, self employed, and making under $30k a year (sometimes a lot under)… I managed to pick up the phone and call an insurance agent to get major medical coverage…. It can be done… and if we are going to continue to be a republic we need people to mature / act like adults / learn to take care of themselves (vs. being coddled by big daddy / the state).

    Of course, this does not apply to people that can not get cheap insurance and/or can not afford it. I don’t mean it to. I say help them.

96. Scottie Says:

    “How about a tax credit targeted at minimum wage type employment, to be used for medical needs instead of direct funds”

    Not sure it will work with the target audience. People who don’t tend to pay taxes and/or make too little for a tax credit to help. Be they people just over the Medicaid line or middle class people who have lost their job due to illness.

    Plus, maybe if the government puts out bids… for millions of policies under a group coverage system (aka, like employers use)… to be bought in the free market for a one year term.. Each year… with different insurance companies competing on price and service… maybe they can get a better deal than individuals could. Also, if the government determines you can afford to pay some (or all) of it, they can ‘cross charge’ you the difference to make it partially self funding… None the less, we’d get honest numbers about what we were spending on public care… and an adversarial system that would help the insured (if the insurance company tries to get cheap, the government will squawk… if the government tries to tell the insurance company to cut corners for cheaper policies, they too can leak it to the media).

97. Please read the article in the Wall Street Journal about how a big part of the bill is all about getting healthcare workers unionized. This is the only reason I can see that this is such an emergency. It is all about paying Labor Unions back for the election.There are many comments to that article that show people do not realize that the ANA and AMA are totally voluntary at this point in time.It is so frustrating to have the media portray the ANA as speaking for all nurses. Can someone please advise this nurse of over 25 years how I can get this information out there?I really,truly do not think unionizing nurses will lead to higher quality care.I have knots in my stomach after reading that article.Oh,yes my Senators are the ever helpful Spector and Casey and I am employed in Biden’s state.Where do I even begin?(And absolutely reform is needed,just not this particular version)

98. NICUNURSE Says:

    “Please read the article in the Wall Street Journal about how a big part of the bill is all about getting healthcare workers unionized.”

    It’s given / I think most of us know that. Every federal power grab results in more public employee unions. Which are more votes for the democrats (ie, a step closer to their permanent majority).

    It is also another area of the economy where being good at what you do will no longer earn you more money.

99. Reason TV just did another healthcare mini-doc citing a John Hopkins study that showed half of those not insured simply choose to spend their money on something else like alcohol, clothes, the like. The rest are like me living in the Socialist Republic of New York where HMOs have to charge $900 a month to stay competitive with Medicaid.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT3KiB2otV0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Freason%2Ecom%2Fblog%2Fshow%2F135853%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded

100. Thomass,

     I like the idea of an insurance pool – as long as there is a check and balance system beyond the insurance companies simply alerting the media if the government overreaches and as long as it remains voluntary.

101. Scottie Says:

     “I like the idea of an insurance pool – as long as there is a check and balance system beyond the insurance companies simply alerting the media if the government overreaches and as long as it remains voluntary.”

     No formula or list of rules, in a static law, will do better than sunlight.

102. Tom Lansford? Bueller????

103. Regarding a couple of mis-representations of what I said about cost, $40 for 1/2 hour of a doctor’s time here in France is the real cost & that is a good deal. I stressed that this is the real cost & that the patient does not pay anything, because we Americans are so used to paying the co-pay, which could easily be $40. So yes, Tatyana, insurance pays – I thought that was easily understood…

     As for knowledge, Baklava, I speak from 17 years of benefiting from the medical systems in France and Germany. John Stossel is just an opinion columnist with an agenda – I watched my parents agonize over how to pay for medical insurance when the were going to retire. I saw my sister lose her coverage for her and her daughters when she lost her job. I watched my father almost die from a 3-bypass because insurance company rules kicked him out of the hospital too fast. Mine is a solidly middle-class family in the USA. No one in France or Germany ever worries about these issues: not having insurance or having the insurance company kick you out of the hospital in the name of profits. It just doesn’t happen.

     There is nothing magical about the systems here in Europe. People pay into the system, governments worry about the costs, hospitals worry about the care, and the system is continually being adapted. That is a normal course.

     The differences I experienced between the German and the French systems were quite striking even though they seem quite similar on the surface. The point is – we Americans will never have the same exact system as any other country. But we should at least take the time to learn from the good experiences of other countries?

     Regards,

     Tom

104. But what Obama is pushing isn’t a reasoned, thoughtful, careful plan. This is a horse designed by committee that looks an awful lot like a Camel.

     (No offense to camels….)

     NICU Nurse: good point. All this Obama stuff is about payola and power, not about “helping the poor.” That SOB has never in his lousy life been about “helping the poor.”

105. Of course we should learn from the experience of other countries, Tom — but it’s hard to avoid learning from the experience of France that a system that sets its prices lower than the actual cost of care will look great to everyone for a while and then end up bankrupt.

106. Regarding the morality issue….

     Up to this point I’ve hesitated to include any personal notes on the discussion.

     However, since Tom Lansford has begun relating personal anecdotes, I’ll offer my own.

     Last year, after many decades of heavy smoking, my father-in-law had quadruple bypass surgery.

     Of course, he spent those same decades working his a$$ off.

     He has been self employed for at least 20 years, and one of his businesses at one point required him to be up by about 4:00 or 5:00 AM, and he didn’t get home until around 5:00 or 6:00 PM, 6 days a week, for years.

     Do I even need mention the amount in taxes he paid over those years as a small business owner?

     My brother-in-law, born with Down Syndrome, had to have open heart surgery before he was even a year old.

     Now over two decades later, he’s one of the brightest, most positive people you will ever meet – and has a chest scar that would make a US Marine cringe.

     My father-in-law once explained that he could not get insurance on either my mother-in-law or his son after he was born.

     He had to make regular payments for the surgery that was performed, and it took years to pay it off.

     He paid it off without government help – he’s kind of stubborn that way – and he never declared bankruptcy in the process, either.

     He had a debt and he took care of it.

     This year, as if that wasn’t enough, my father-in-law is now undergoing treatments for prostate cancer, and shortly after he was diagnosed his brother was likewise diagnosed with a different kind of cancer!

     He is quite aware of how insurance works.

     He is also quite aware of what’s being discussed in Congress at the moment – and he’s adamently opposed to the plans being floated about.

     He knows deep down, he – or someone like him – would probably end up being a cost cutting measure at some point for a government bureaucrat facing a departmental budget shortfall and under strict orders not to increase the deficit.

     He is likewise concerned that his son would also have been placed into the same catagory at birth.

     I have had many political arguments over the years with my father-in-law.

     He’s an old school democrat, and I’m a Reagan Democrat, but I admit even I was surprised at how fierce he reacted to the subject when it came up on the news one evening while we were visiting.

     As I noted before, morality is strictly based upon personal perspective – and nobody is in a position to lecture me – or my father-in-law – on that subject.

107. No, Tom, you think it is easily understood, but you’re the one who doesn’t understand. I was not talking about $40 copayment.
     “Insurance pays” you said – but you and others like you don’t pay to insurance.
     It’s the whole country, who pays taxes, a portion of which (btw, are you aware even which portion? how much your wonderful healthcare cost?) go to pay for universal health coverage.
     You see? people who earn more money pay more taxes – and they pay for their and for your medical bills. Not “insurance’, not some uncertain “state” – they pay. You live because somebody was robbed to pay for your health. Aren’t you ashamed to be a thief?

     I thought it is impossible to explain better than Scottie did – but you managed to pass it through and don’t understand a thing.

108. tatyana,people who dont actually do the dirty work of the thievery have many ways to rationalize why largess that falls from the sky as payment for their complicity, help, and silence, should be theirs.

109. Tom clearly doesn’t have much stomach to read the debunkings or else he’d see little of merit in France’s healthcare or that of any socialized system. Folks, this is the level of opposition we are dealing with. People unable to grapple with the unpleasantness of reality to embrace delusion of bliss.

110. And THERE it is: the official beginning of a speculation/whispering campaign/allegation that Southerners oppose Barack and Obamacare b/c Southerners are racist.

     I’ve been waiting for it and waiting for it: it was inevitable. It appears, today, in MSNBC’s First Thoughts Blog, whose authorship is credited thusly: “From Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Ali Weinberg”. This is the unstated, uncoordinated, yet widely understood goal: the “Southerners are racists” campaign will be whispered and speculated over weeks and months, gradually building steam – a la “Clarence Thomas harassed Anita Hill” and “Bush lied, people died” – until, eventually, it will become stone cold acknowledged history that Obamacare failed b/c Southerners were racists. That this will happen, I’ve zero doubt. My grandchildren will be taught this in high school history. The opening salvo, from today’s “First Thoughts” blog:

     “The Elephant In The Room: At what point do what a bunch of folks in D.C. believe privately become more public — that there is a dramatic divide between how people in the South view Obama versus the rest of the country? Sure, the South has always been more conservative and has been increasingly more Republican, so it shouldn’t be a surprise this region is less open to a Democratic president’s ideas; it’s no different than folks in New York City and San Francisco not being open to a Republican president’s proposals. But is it really the “D” next to Obama’s name that has folks upset in the South? Yes, there was a “coastal” divide when it came to George W. Bush, and the election results of 2004, 2006, and 2008 proved that. But is it ALL just ideological? It’s truly subjective… As defiant as some on the right are about the fact that this has nothing to do with race, there’s an equal group of folks who believe it’s ONLY grounded in race. Bottom line: Whether it’s fair or not, there is a perception growing that race is driving some elements of the opposition to Obama. It probably means this tumult will only grow for the time being.

     And so it begins for real.

111. gcotharn,

     “…..there’s an equal group of folks who believe it’s ONLY grounded in race.”

     As a Southern white male, I have to agree with this statement.

     Sad, but it’s true.

     Of course, the folks who believe it’s all about race are likewise The Won’s firmest supporters!

     So yes, it’s about race – but not in the fashion they’d like to stereotype it as!

112. Tom with laziness wrote, “As for knowledge, Baklava, I speak from 17 years of benefiting from the medical systems in France and Germany. John Stossel is just an opinion columnist”

     Isn’t that what a leftist discussion usually is…

     Never address the point made. Just attack the messenger.

     Not only are you without knowledge and power. But you are lazy. Therefore you have zero respect from me.

113. Scottie,

     LOL

114. Scottie, you are right, but make no mistake, they are coming after you and your culture. You might think you have been stigmatized enough; just wait. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to lie low? Or are you going to take the mental fight to the enemy?

     I wish I could laugh about it.

115. Many of you people says he is lieing about the things he says !Were is your proof ? Prove it or shut up !

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