1. Matthew 7.5: First cast out the beam in your own eye; and then you shall see clearly to cast out the mote from your brother’s eye.

2. Please remember — Greed or Fear, Carrots or Sticks.
   Capitalism is based on greed / desire for something good (& freedom of choice, and peaceful agreements or peaceful disagreements-no deal).
   Anti-capitalism, communism or socialism or totalitarianism, is based on fear. Not peace, not agreement, but laws (and/or selective enforcement of laws against the non-chosen) and fear of the police.

   Obama-democrats want normal people to live in fear — for their own good.

3. By golly, Democracy Corps captures what I think about Obama — and fear about his presidency — better than I could have. And Neo — very good anaylsis of BDR, especially as exemplified by (and admitted to) by Chait. F

4. The Democracy Corps profile fits me to a T.
   But I wonder to what purpose the data and analysis will be put, given the founders of this “Corps”.

5. I agree—I was surprised at the reasonable tone of the study, especially after reading Chait’s piece about it first.

6. The Democracy Corps profiles fits me to a T as well. This is somewhat to my surprise, since the name “Democracy Corps” alone makes my antennae twitch, frankly. “Democracy” is one of the Red buzzwords, one of which invariably ends up in every front organization’s name, with alternatives being “Peace,” “Justice,” “Mothers,” “Families,” “United,” “Coalition,” and “America(n).”

   Nothing wrong with any of those, of course, but an outfit named “Coalition of Mothers and Families United for Peace, Justice, and Democracy for America” is absolutely guaranteed to be a communist front organization, and typically to have about five members.

7. “… Chait believes that a person who comes to such a conclusion is most likely delusional and suffering from a “persecution complex.”

   There’s nothing left to do but institutionalize such people — for their own good and safety of course. Which of course leads to the solution preferred, eventually, by the Communists — turning political prisoners into the mentally disturbed – psychiatry in the service of Socialism and the Soviet.

   http://www.jpands.org/hacienda/edcor2.html

   http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ac2sakh.html

   Wonder if treatments will be covered by Health Care USA?

8. I have come to the conclusion that the true believers can’t actually see us or hear us. That awful, demonic image they see is their own reflection. All the world is a mirror for their own pre-occupations and insecurities about money, power, race, and sex.

9. > just who are you calling deranged?

   Facts? Facts?

   Weeeee don’ neeeeeed….

   These ARE the guys who completely fabricated racist quotes and claims of same to attribute to Limbaugh, after all.

10. Democracy Corps could have saved a bundle by reading neo-neocon for a month, instead of hiring consultants to write a report. What’s missing is Michael Barone’s point that there are a lot more conservatives than Republicans.

11. When I think of “right-wing paranoia,” I think of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

12. Had the same reaction as Occam, thinking on first read it should be spelled Demokracie Korps.

13. I suppose that somebody who thought the “ruin America motivation” folks were wrong could be challenged.
    If zero were really trying to ruin America, what would he do differently?
    Not much.
    So it doesn’t make much difference what his motivation is in the short run.
    In the long run, if he sees what he’s doing is bad for America, he will either redouble his efforts, or change his tack.
    Depending.

14. It is true, though, what Democracy Corp says in its title: “Why Republican Leaders will have Trouble Speaking to the Rest of America.”

    The viewpoint described in the article and appearing often enough on this blog sounds considerably strange to the majority of Americans.

    Which doesn’t mean that viewpoint is false, just that is an unusual thought that the President of the United States “is purposely and ruthlessly executing a hidden agenda to weaken and ultimately destroy the foundations of our country.”

    And it’s correspondingly difficult to communicate that viewpoint to others without sounding … peculiar.

    Then again, Obama and the Democratic leadership gained power by exploiting very similar beliefs about Bush 43.

15. A very good post. I only have one additional comment.

    Chait wrote, “In reality, by the last few years of the Bush administration, more than half the public strongly disapproved of Bush as president.”

    In reality, Mr. Chait, a lot of those people were conservatives. For liberals, Bush was too conservative. For conservatives, Bush wasn’t conservative enough.

16. Afterthought: In fact, this post is so good that it should go on Pajamas Media.

17. ” and that some of his policies, such as his promise that we can keep our current health care insurance, are indeed “designed to fail.””

    I don’t think that qualifies though. If you thought that the budget deficits created by the program would crash the dollar and/or cause chaos via hyperinflation… and that this was not a bug but rather a feature… then it would qualify.

18. Tom Grey, remember, capitalism is greed held in check by fear. Banks normally shouldn’t make too risky loans in a pure capitalism system. But throw in quasi government constructs like Fanni Mae and Freddie Mac to buy the debt after the banker collects the fees, then you have /had/ a recipe for disaster…..

19. huxley — Well, then, you don’t tell people Obama’s policies are all nutty and designed to fail. Instead, just pick one policy where you have all the facts and you’ve heard and disposed of all the excuses. Then calmly, politely take it apart, while giving Obama as much benefit of the doubt as you figure the audience needs to hear.

    Don’t give them abstractions. Give them concrete examples. If they think they can’t go wrong going along with the crowd, remind them that two years ago, everybody thought the housing bubble made perfect sense. Ten years ago, everybody thought Pets Dot Com stock was the soundest investment since Polaroid in the 1970s.

    Furthermore, Obama does deserve a certain kind of benefit of the doubt. The whole thing looks calculated to us, because everything this administration is doing has been shown in the past not to work. You and I know that, but Obama doesn’t. His people don’t. They’re blind drunk on hubris. They think all these idiotic things they’re doing will come up roses, because they’re so special they can do no wrong. Chait’s got the same problem.

20. Retardo Says:

    “The whole thing looks calculated to us, because everything this administration is doing has been shown in the past not to work. You and I know that, but Obama doesn’t.”

    True.

21. “You and I know that, but Obama doesn’t”.

    We don’t know what Baraq does or doesn’t know.
    We do have incontrovertible indications as to motives, and 9 months of evidence. That is enough for this juror to find him guilty of major crimes. Maybe RICO applies to him, his cabinet, and the czars.

22. Huxley – I agree with you most of the time on Obama things, but this time I think your position is overly cautious. My sense is that there are a lot more people out there predisposed toward what the DC report calls right wingers than you think. I can certainly see my reflection in it, so I guess I’m a right winger which is news to me. Retardo’s advice above about being patient but tough minded in interactions with Obama’s minions makes good sense and we should listen to him. But your advice appears to be to go conservative light somehow in our interactions with others. To do that though is to play to not lose instead of to play to win. The country went through that already with McCain. There is a difference between playing not to lose and playing to win. Let’s play to win and let’s use the descriptions in the DC report as our gateway to that, even if that means being tagged as a right wringer by those or other people.

23. I have tattoos and I agree with JohnC.

24. wringer = winger

25. I tried for a minute or two to ignore the tattoos Gray, but s*** I couldn’t. They’re still tarty.

26. huxley isn’t being cautious; he’s being realistic. Most of us around here understand a story about the Left that would seem fantastic to people who haven’t studied the Left for a long time.

    If I think about my own mother and sister–both Obama voters–they would not be able to credit that people who utter such fair-sounding statements of good intent would be anything other than what they claim to be. For us, Van Jones and Anita Dunn and fecklessness with Russia, Iran, and Afghanistan are signal; for them, having communist advisors and the ACORN stories are noise that they can’t fit into their narratives of how things work.

27. Yes I hear you Oblio but at the same time some 20 million people listen to Rush on a daily basis and probably some 5 to 10 million listen to Mark Levine. Many others listen to Laura Ingram, Tammy Bruce, and to others talker on the radio. Of course, not all listeners agree with the talkers, but a lot of them do and a lot are influenced in one way or another by them. You are incorrect. It’s it’s realistic to think that they can process ‘the noise’ as you say. It’s plain and simple caution to be fearful of being branded a right winger and play not to lose.

28. I’ll go with JohnC on this one.

    There seems to be a perception that people voted for him and there has been a leftward shift – few did. Most were angry at many of the Bush (and Republican) policies and he represented a departure from them, left his actual policies open ended, and this allowed people to make him into whomever they wanted to be. For example the main complaints about Iraq and Afghanistan were not and are not that we are there but that we were/are playing a game of attrition – they got low approval ratings but intentionally loosing got even lower.

    There are, however, a certain amount that voted for him. Some because he is a Democrat and we have them described already (what we attribute to him is noise and can not be integrated with their view – your probably never going too no matter your tact). Some because they thought the knew what he stood for (most of these are angry moving towards betrayed as he isn’t what he presented himself to be – we will not win these people either). And finally there are those that understood the code words, his associations, and his actions and he is doing exactly what they want.

    As that veneer wears off more and more people are not liking what they see he will continue to slide down. As long as you make sure it doesn’t become personal (and that is the difference between BDS and an intense dislike of his Presidency) many people will come over to that side too. Same thing with the Dems in General. They are still riding the fact that the Repubs are just as bad if not worse and there is no real sign of that changing.

    The vast majority of the US population are Reagan type conservative. That is do three core things: Small govt, strong defense, and maintain a personal code of ethics. You can then be all sorts of other things (you can even throw in a few Big Govt initiatives if you are over all small govt too and people believe you to be honest with an America First attitude).

    Reagan also fully understood the difference between “play to not loose” (how we had played the Cold War to then) and “Play to Win” (how he played and caused so much hand wringing with advice on how to basically perpetuate the conflict). If Bush had done that from the get go with both wars he wouldn’t have had the downward spiral he did either.

    If Palin could have kept the demeanor she had that first night she would have swept the elections even as VP. *That* was a moment of a Reagan Conservative and the fact that she could have carried the election shows how much that type of person is wanted. Sadly, while some (but not all) of it was undeserved, she slid down another path of less popularity to the general public.

29. I tried for a minute or two to ignore the tattoos Gray, but s*** I couldn’t. They’re still tarty.

    HAHAHAHA! In all seriousness. Your previous comment made a great point:

    As the administration and congress shifts farther left even former moderates now find themselves “on the right” without ever changing ideas or politics.

    In slagging “The Right”, the administration is denigrating a lot of people who considered themselves in the center. With the stupid, stupid Republicans playing “not to lose”, the Center may have to embrace the Right just to stay in the Center!

    I’ve always been conservative, but it’s gotta be wierd for people who never self-identified as conservative to find themselves suddenly lumped in with them and insulted by the administration.

    It’s a giant psychological experiment….

30. There are too many good points to address here, so I will just pick out a couple:

    huxley Says:
    October 17th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    The viewpoint described in the article and appearing often enough on this blog sounds considerably strange to the majority of Americans.

    Which doesn’t mean that viewpoint is false, just that is an unusual thought that the President of the United States “is purposely and ruthlessly executing a hidden agenda to weaken and ultimately destroy the foundations of our country.”

    And it’s correspondingly difficult to communicate that viewpoint to others without sounding … peculiar.

    It is an unusual thought, because it’s never happened before. We have had plenty of fools, crooks, and charlatans in the White House. Liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, have always argued over which was which. That’s been the norm in American politics. But it is new and unprecedented for a President to pursue an agenda that is fundamentally anti-American. Many people, especially those who get their news from the state-run media*, simply are unable to wrap their minds around the concept that the President is actively malevolent.

    (*”State-Run Media”, of course, is Limbaugh’s term. I refuse to call them “Mainstream Media” any more, since they have clearly chosen sides. I’d just as soon call them “Pravda” and be done with it.)

    Then again, Obama and the Democratic leadership gained power by exploiting very similar beliefs about Bush 43.

    And which was classic projection on the part of the Left. I remember saying a few years ago that their criticisms of Bush indicated precisely what they themselves planned to if they ever got power. I hate being right about things like that.

31. planned to do

32. Oblio Says:
    October 17th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    I have come to the conclusion that the true believers can’t actually see us or hear us. That awful, demonic image they see is their own reflection.

    Well said.

    Retardo Says:
    October 17th, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    The whole thing looks calculated to us, because everything this administration is doing has been shown in the past not to work.

    Au contraire. Socialism works just fine for the thugs and looters in power. It always has.

    strcpy Says:
    October 18th, 2009 at 1:10 am

    If Palin could have kept the demeanor she had that first night she would have swept the elections even as VP. *That* was a moment of a Reagan Conservative and the fact that she could have carried the election shows how much that type of person is wanted. Sadly, while some (but not all) of it was undeserved, she slid down another path of less popularity to the general public.

    She didn’t slide; she was pushed. Obama was clearly rattled when Palin appeared on the scene. She was then subjected to the most concentrated, coordinated campaign of character assassination by the media that I have ever seen. I said on another blog in September 2008 that “PDS (Palin Derangement Syndrome) has gotten worse in two weeks than BDS has in eight years.”

    The McCain/Palin ticket was leading in the polls in mid-September. That was just before the Wall Street meltdown. Many people, myself included, think that the timing of that was mighty suspicious. It couldn’t have possibly been better timed to benefit Obama’s candidacy.

    At the risk of tooting my own horn yet again, I remember saying somewhere a few years ago that my greatest fear was a serious economic downturn before the 2008 election.

33. Of course, my “au contraire” reply to Retardo’s quote shouldn’t have been in quotes. Stupid XHTML.

34. The first problem with the notion that President Bush was unpopular is the fact that many of those displeased with our last president were, in fact, conservatives. Many of his policies were out and out not conservative and not in line with what many of my companions agree and believe. There was no BDS in our half of the disapproval sector.

    I think another key factor, is my dislike of the president is not personalized. Kerry, Kennedy, Obama, the name does not matter. What matters is the substance. Do I care that he seems to be a sissy? No, I see guys like him everyday, if too I avoid them a bit. I do not hate them, as pity and prefer not to associate. Do I care that he comes from wealth and has never worked a day in his life, no more than I dislike most of the Kennedy clan. What does bother me is his politics, those he obviously chooses to (mis)manage my country, and his inability to understand that he is the servant, not the master. This is our White House and our nation, not his or theirs. I could care less about him as a guy on the street, if I have nothing to do with his type. BDS offered it’s sufferers no such peace, clarity, or reason.

35. I hate President Barack Obama. There, I said it. I think his policies rank him among the worst presidents in U.S. history. And, while I’m tempted to leave it at that, the truth is that I hate him for less substantive reasons, too. I hate the inequitable way he has come to his economic and political achievements and his utter lack of humility (disguised behind transparently false modesty) at having done so…He reminds me of a certain type I knew in high school—the kid who was given a fancy sports car for his sixteenth birthday and believed that he had somehow earned it. I hate the way he walks—shoulders flexed, elbows splayed out from his sides like a teenage boy feigning machismo. I hate the way he talks—blustery self-assurance masked by a pseudo-populist twang.

    Thanks for the template Chait; that was so easy to plug ‘n play and it makes as much sense if not more sense than the original.

36. We have been miseducated as to the meanings of certain things, and so we as a population do not know what to oppose, what to embrace. we are embracing a process that has only one STATED end result and has never ever strayed from that singular path.

    thats really what separates a lot of the right from the left: a more detailed idea of what happened, in history, a less utopian view knowing more world principals as you get older, more incremental slower ‘progress’ (to nowhere), willingness to call some perspectives acts and ideas as not being things we should play with.

    in the world of the literature on that side of the fence, jennings, obama, ayers, wright, and others are not extreme thinkers, they are MAINSTREAM thinkers

    they do not realize that the system embraces anything that can help move towards the end result of a world dictatorship (which is the stated precendent before they all give up there jobs in a dictatorship, go home, and government is not needed any more)…

    to the people who are living a false history, with false politically correct points and attitudes to take, those on the right, or rather those not part of them, are a pastiche false story as most of the rest of their stalinized (revisioned) reality, history, and education.

    they do not know that they represent the horrors that they seek to prevent.

    here you can read a screen grab of a left liberal who is calling himself the real americans and saying that those on the right you should go into fema camps.
    http://www.moonbattery.com/grab01.gif

    you can find a plethora of arguments from late 1800s, into our presidents cabinet as to those who favor some kind of forced murder, abortions, and control of people to force them to march in line to utopia.

    the disvavor to the right, is the ideological active measure to smear everything as bad that is not their power. stalin started this in germany when hitler and he fought over the minds and hearts of the population in flux.

    its the same thing today now that we are in flux, and so they are smearing every opposition power to move as many to their side as possible so that they can circularly feed each other over all others (As it was in germany, russia, and other places, where those that were in the right place and cooperated thought it wasnt bad at all – as long as they didnt know how it got that way).

    to think that things have to be exactly the same or they are not heading the same way insured safety to those woh attempt such things. the oversimplfied perspective of people on the left insures that they could not recognize the same plot in a different wrapping. (these are the people who think that so many of the great new movies are original and do not realize that many of them are remakes 4th time over). unless the thing parallels what villians look like in movies (handsome, long hair, funny clothes, in the open, violent to stupid), then they cant be villians. even our news insulates us from the worst of the daily violence that would shatter that world view of no villians.

    when delusion is the majority, then isnt normalcy the desease to remove?

    [edited for length by neo-neocon]

37. JohnC, I think you misunderstand what huxley and I are saying. We aren’t saying that people can’t get the message. We are saying that we have to promote the message in a way that can be understood by people who are subjected to daily reinforcement in the media Master Narrative. This media Master Narrative is promoted by a very small minority of activists.

    Breitbart is showing the way, brilliantly. So is Palin, in her own fashion.

    I think we are going to win, but it won’t be quick, and it won’t be easy. Step one is to get the independents on side, which is happening because of rotten administration policy both foreign and domestic, as well as their promiscuous use of the race card. Step two is to give the activists the Alinsky treatment, to call them out by name and shame them, and to put pressure on institutions that shelter them. You must always remember that the broad leadership of the mainstream cultural institutions are liberal out of fear, not out of conviction.

38. If Victor Davis Hanson is deranged, I want to be deranged, too.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/confessions-of-a-cultural-drop-out/

    What’s interesting about Hanson’s piece is, that in choosing to be disconnected from from mass culture, he seems to be more alive and engaged than ever before. He is living productively along every dimension. We should emulate him, each in his own way.

39. This post and its comments strikes me as perhaps the most brilliant and useful of any I have read here (daily reader since the “How I Came To Be a Neo-con days).
    I made a similar journey to my present Indie libertarian beliefs, but I started as a Goldwater conservative.
    Neo’s comment that she started with a moderate view of President Obama, but after observing him in action reached many of the same conclusions as the far right, once again describes my similar journey.
    I think that the Liberal Narrative believers cannot (and will not) break out of their bubble because they were pre-selected to end up there by their relative lack of intellectual curiosity. For those who care enough to invest some time and effort, the neo-conservative story is already out there. The sheeple WANT the Liberal Narrative – it is so “nice” and so “easy” and so many (apparently) well-meaning folks (such as Candidate Obama) are peddling it.
    I know, I am cynical. However, I believe that the path to achieving our goals does not lie through education per se (they are not listening). Unfortunately, I think that only financial disaster so great that it cannot be lied away will awaken the Liberal Narrative Zombies and stimulate them to educate themselves. And then they may fall prey to the Communist Narrative.
    PS: I do not have a high opinion of Liberals and Progressives.

40. “She didn’t slide; she was pushed. Obama was clearly rattled when Palin appeared on the scene. She was then subjected to the most concentrated, coordinated campaign of character assassination by the media that I have ever seen.”

    She slid, it was helped along quite a bit but she still more often than not gave them the fodder to do it with. She did *not* play national politics very good at all and still doesn’t.

    She speaks to us fairly well but fits too many bad stereo types for a more general populace. She even makes a decent opposition candidate but, like Obama, tends to fail (at least nationally) when she tries to lead. Her recent “Death Panels” comment is a perfect example of this – great for talking to us, enough of a point along with a bit of grandstanding to get most to realize what she means, but simply too coarse and divisive for many in the middle to support for President.

    As such she makes a decent enough governor, senator, or representative if her state approves of that and she makes a highly effective political pundit/activists – her statements may not make many want her for president but they do a good job of hitting some of the Dems horrid ideas. Her initial speech was very Reaganesque, her later ones were not so much.

    Further, I think a lot of the media attacks *kept* her approval up – she handled that part better than almost any politician I have seen in ages, if she hadn’t of done and said some frankly stupid things she would have done quite well. I figure that if she had made a slower rise to the national scene and got all that worked out (as I am certain she is capable of doing) we would be seeing President Palin sometime in the next 20 years, now it is probably not going to happen, though 20 years is long enough to change some ideas about a person.

41. “I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.”

    Hmmm, let’s see: “She slid…gave them fodder…” wasn’t good then and still isn’t…”tends to fail…fits bad stereotypes…too coarse and devisive…done and said some fairly stupid things…probably not going to happen.”

    Looks like a normal liberal hit piece in Shakespearean drag to me.

42. strcpy Says:
    October 18th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    I figure that if she had made a slower rise to the national scene and got all that worked out (as I am certain she is capable of doing) we would be seeing President Palin sometime in the next 20 years, now it is probably not going to happen, though 20 years is long enough to change some ideas about a person.

    Trouble is, we don’t have 20 years. We have one year at the most. If conservatives don’t sweep the House and Senate elections in November 2010, then the time for politics will be over. After that, it will be either violent revolution or gulags and death camps.

43. Let me be clear:

    This administration doesn’t make sense unless you process it as an attack on the Constitution. Period. Full. Stop.

    Obama isn’t a stateman. He’s a character in his own myth, with ghost writers and editors behind him to make sure he stays on script.

    The goal is not change. It is destruction.

44. “After that, it will be either violent revolution or gulags and death camps.”

    The one bit of reality embraced by Team O is that they don’t in fact bring any utopia in drum.

    Nope, what they have settled on is the proposition that The System as it exists – with it’s individual liberty, its mostly free markets, its ugly taint of Christianist and other superstitions, and disregard for the proper role of RACE, ETHNIC, and GENDER grievance farming as political priorities – is just too damned broken to NOT destroy…

    … even in the absence of any plan for what to do AFTER the revolution.

    Emmanuel, Soros, Ayers, and the like minded maroons that make up Obama’s spiritual cadre don’t pretend to have any bright path for a national future.

    They are just their for selfish gratification. If America falls, Soros just manages his wealth from another bit of dirt. Emmanuel… frankly, I think he’s simply a frustrated serial SOMETHING; no clue as to what. He’s a creature who games The System. His involvement is suicidal, plain and simple. Ayers and Jones and the other marxists just want to see The System brought down in their lifetime…

    even if they don’t get to see the camps for the troublesome twenty percent that have to die.

    A year? Weeks. The Won can’t do but dither on Afghanistan but he’s got time to play pouty face with Limbaugh on Thursday then give a punk bully speech aimed at insurers on Friday?

    Weeks. Not next year, not next month. Watch China sell a raft of gold for Euros, just to kick off the panic.

45. China would need to sell Treasuries, then swap the dollars to Euros to buy European bonds. So the signs would be falling dollar and increasing Treasury yields/falling Treasuries and decreasing Eurobond yields. Don’t expect to see a lot of gold selling.

46. China would be committed to an agenda that would be indistinguishable from war, except for the lack of shooting, to initiate the move I described. I fail to see any more profit for them in continuing to subsidize our suicide by statism.

    Way, way too many folk weight the economic interest of Chinese people against the desire of the Chinese government to see America reduced to to helplessness; a lot of the world is seeking any commodity of value to invest in.

    An investment in the good faith of the United States is looking as sound as last night’s condom right about now.

47. Of course, there’s always Clausewitz, paraphrased:

    “If the enemy is intent on destroying himself, get out of his way.”

    So the Chinese continuing to smile and and buy treasuries could continue for a little bit longer.

48. rickl and TmjUtah both sound very solid to me, and mirror things I’ve been saying for a very long time now. I continue to be puzzled by some on the right whom I otherwise admire greatly and agree with mostly (Mark Steyn and Charles Krauthammer, in his Weekly Standard piece last week on America’s decline come to mind) who think that what the Left wants, and what we’re headed for, is a European-style social democracy. With all respect, I think (and, again, have said many times both here and elsewhere) that by the time these guys are finished, we are going to wish we could get a European-style social democracy. I don’t think rickl goes to far in envisioning gulags a death camps. I hate it, but anyone who thinks it can’t happen here has paid no attention to history.

49. betsybounds Says:
    October 18th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    I hate it, but anyone who thinks it can’t happen here has paid no attention to history.

    Thanks. That’s exactly what I was driving at.

    The 20th Century was positively drenched in blood because of collectivist ideologies. It matters little the particular flavor. Communism, fascism, socialism, nazism, Maoism, Castroism, Pol Pot-ism–they were all just different variations of collectivism, or statism as Mark Levin calls it. There is no shortage of examples of the kind of ruin and human suffering that such poisonous ideologies can bring down on societies.

    Let us not forget that Germany in 1932 was one of the most civilized, educated, cultured, scientifically and technologically advanced societies in the world. Yet it happened there, just as it has happened in countless benighted Third World shitholes.

    So it is beyond sickening to see the same damn thing taking root and spreading in the United States of America, right before my very eyes. If history teaches us anything, it is that somehow this must be nipped in the bud. Adopting a “wait and see” attitude simply doesn’t work in this kind of situation.

    I was away from my computer for a few hours, and I was a little worried that I was going to catch hell for my earlier comment. I’m glad that didn’t happen, but on the other hand it’s not exactly comforting that a dozen people didn’t immediately jump on me saying, “What, are you nuts?“

50. I don’t think rickl goes to far in envisioning gulags a death camps. I hate it, but anyone who thinks it can’t happen here has paid no attention to history.

    Nothing can ultimately be ruled out, of course, however, I would say that gulags and death camps are a very, very unlikely possibility in the US in the near term of failure in the 2010 elections that rickl suggested earlier.

    And, yes, I have read quite a bit of history — more than most people I know — while paying attention.

    Those who envision American gulags and death camps are welcome to their opinions, but I for one disagree and rather resent being told, several times now, that my position is historically ignorant.

    I suggest reading some history to compare and contrast the present United States with pre-Nazi Germany and pre-Revolution Russia. The situations are extremely different.

    Then review the past nine months and note that Obamaism is being nipped in the bud, that whatever his hidden agenda is, Obama has been stopped dead in his tracks at the peak of his power, and he is now growing weaker, not stronger.

51. I would also note that Obama is extremely different from Hitler and Lenin.

    The latter were hard, cunning men, forged in adversity including imprisonment — not coddled through ivy league radical play-acting, rebellious drug use, and resultless community organizing, all cushioned by an affirmative action discount.

    Even with supermajorities in Congress, Obama can’t get his legislation passed. He has been making careless mistakes nearly every week. His poll numbers have dropped faster than any predecessor since Truman.

    Obama still has no wins, aside from the freak Nobel Peace Prize that virtually no one, aside from five Norwegians and Bono, believed Obama deserved, which only highlighted Obama’s lack of achievement.

    Obama has more in common, I would say, with John Lennon, than Vladimir Lenin.

    Part of Obama’s “hidden agenda” is that he really seems to believe the anti-war, anti-nuclear “Give Peace a Chance” mindlessness of the Sixties, Seventies and Eighties. Foreign leaders love Obama’s unilateral concessions but give nothing back.

    More and more people, such as Krauthammer, Jennifer Rubin, the bloggers at Powerline, are describing Obama as a fool, foolish, dithering, incompetent, naive, weak, unserious and amateurish.

    Is Obama really the ruthless revolutionary who is going to subvert America into gulags and death camps? I think not.

52. I suggest reading some history to compare and contrast the present United States with pre-Nazi Germany and pre-Revolution Russia. The situations are extremely different.

    they are not at the perspective down at the bottom, given that each outcome has to fit the times its in, not actually copy exactly the times from before.

    when someone from then says somethig that you like, you say listn to him, when someone with similar credentials who is actually part of the conversation says something, nope, it has to be your cherry picked view.

    The situations are extremely different.
    

    the MOST IMPORTANT parts are not different. I have tried to explain the IMPORTANT REAL parts that make a difference, while i have heard tons fault the idea for pittance concepts as to whether there were beer hall riots.

    my family was there for pre-revolutionary russia. my family was a forced part of the stalin hitler acts up close. What you keep missing is that contemporary histories do NOT go over the perspective of the average person. you have no idea what jonah sees INSIDE the whale, you only have the outside facts which come AFTER, WAY AFTER those other things. end game vs opening moves.

    hardest thing people cant seem to get over is equivalent acts wrapped in different labels.

    to a person who hasnt lived through any of these kinds of things, not one, how could they assert the situations are extreemly different? and THATS why SOME have said your historically ignorant.

    well, let me list some parallels and let some decide and then perhaps say whether things are EXTREEMLY different, or too much the same.

    oh, and i cant explain any of the points, that would be too long for the short attention spans of the modern new man

    Between 1924 and 1929, Hitler’s party grew slowly, but then, a combination of a global economic crisis, that sharply increased unemployment to a peak of 43% and revived the worst fears of the previous crisis, that strengthened the communists, who returned to street violence, this combination brought fear, and Hitler rose meteorically over this wave of fear, promising Germans a return to the old ways and a bright future. His talent as a demagogue served him well in those years.

    four years of SLOW GROWTH… with communists smashing things (and protestors) facilitating state action… so as people got more agitated over a 4-5 year period, it facitilated the actions.

    The Pentagon has approached Congress to grant the Secretary of Defense the authority to post almost 400,000 military personnel throughout the United States in times of emergency or a major disaster. This request has already occasioned a dispute with the nation’s governors. And it raises the prospect of U.S. military personnel patrolling the streets of the United States, in conflict with the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.

    In June, the U.S. Northern Command distributed a “Congressional Fact Sheet” entitled “Legislative Proposal for Activation of Federal Reserve Forces for Disasters.” That proposal would amend current law, thereby “authorizing the Secretary of Defense to order any unit or member of the Army Reserve, Air Force Reserve, Navy Reserve, and the Marine Corps Reserve, to active duty for a major disaster or emergency.
    

    the fact that they requested half a million troops for such actions of course doesnt parallel germany, because these soldiers dont speak german.

    this combined with the military hiring internment and resettlement specialists. Internment/Resettlement Specialist (31E)
    http://www.goarmy.com/JobDetail.do?id=292

    Some of your duties as an Internment/Resettlement Specialist may include:

    Assist with the supervision and management of confinement and detention operations
    Provide external security to confinement/corrections facilities or detention/internment facilities
    Provide counseling and guidance to individual prisoners within a rehabilitative program
    Prepare or review reports and records of prisoners/internees and programs
    

    but again, it doesnt parallel germany or Russia, they dont speak german or russian. we will forget fema camps which no one wants to believe. and i say, ok. but lets move on to other things.

    you say we are not like russia either?
    lets see, our family laws and free love and all that, is a copy frmo the bolshivik revolution

    No-fault divorce was pioneered by the Bolsheviks following the Russian Revolution of 1917.[citation needed] Before the Revolution churches, mosques, and synagogues defined family life. It was the ecclesiastical law of the various denominations that controlled the family, marriage, and divorce. For example, the official registration of birth, death, marriage, and divorce was the responsibility of the church parish. Under these non-secular laws, divorce was highly restricted.

    The 1918 Decree on Divorce eliminated the religious marriage and the underlying ecclesiastical law, by replacing them with civil marriage sanctioned by the state. Divorce was obtained by filing a mutual consent document with the Russian Registry Office, or by the unilateral request of one party to the court. The divorce law under the Bolsheviks did not penalize the husband with alimony, child support, or debtor’s prison for non-payment. The two partners were entirely free of legal obligations to each other after divorce.

    you just cant see the parallels cause you grew up in ignorance of them. After the October Revolution in Russia, Alexandra Kollontai became the most prominent woman in the Soviet administration. Kollontai was also a champion of free love. In what may be an apocryphal conversation, she defended free love to Lenin, saying “Love should be free, like drinking water from a glass.” the russians were opposed to this until hungarian bell kuhn government and george luckaks.

    and our school system is copied. after all, prior to all taht nazi crap, we didnt have KINDER GARTENS. german for garden of children, where you raise them. Friedrich Wilhelm August Froebel (Fré¶bel) (1782 – 1852). Friedrich Froebel, the German educationalist, is best known as the originator of the ‘kindergarten system’. but it was Dewey that gave us the more polished later statist kind. Dewey was a russian spy. While the kindergarten idea was not always welcomed by the middle classes for their own children, since it stressed the importance of the trained kindergarten teacher rather than the mother in the training of the child, it was widely accepted by them as a means of training immigrant children and other children of the slums. With the establishment of free kindergartens in working-class neighborhoods in the 1870s, the advocates of kindergartens began to suggest that the proper training of these children might eventually lead to the elimination of urban poverty. For they believed that not only could they socialize the slum child in the habits of cleanliness and discipline but, through evening classes, educate working class mothers in the principles of Froebelian child nurture. Thus, through the child and his now educated mother, the family could be taught ‘proper’, that is middle-class, ideals of family life. It was further believed that by recovering the child before the stamp of the slum was irrevocably placed upon him, he could be taught habits of virtue and thus prevent the creation of future generations of paupers and criminals // Underlying this argument is the fact that Fré¶bel pedagogy was transformed into a modern form with the help of Elsa Ké¶hler, an Austrian educational researcher, who worked together with Ellen and Maria Moberg. Ké¶hler introduced child psychology from Karl and Charlotte Bé¼hler together with a new perspective on Fré¶bel.
    

    it was dewey that created the statist schools. it was Bella Dodd who helped mold them more towards socialism. the pledge was written by two sociailsts who wanted the children to owe allegiance to the state NOT the constitution.

    When Sidney Hook, John Dewey, Norman Thomas, and other leftist intellectuals issued a proclamation condemning the Left’s double standard on totalitarianism in Germany versus totalitarianism in Russia, Stone was a signatory of the response that held it “a fantastic falsehood that the U.S.S.R. and totalitarian states are basically alike.”

    with such education normalized, no one realized who we copied slowly. you can read about dewey from venona tapes, you can read about dodd from her own books when she woke up. we now have kids singing odes to our leader as in germany, and we have them singing about equal pay for eqyual work as in russia.

    Hitler nationalized teh banks, we did the same,lenin also nationalized the banks.
    (once part of the system is nationalized, the state protects its own investments over the open ones and they wither on the vine).

    remember that most of the things being put into place will NOT take effect and start affecting us till several years from now. like moving chess pieces into position.

    hitler nationalized auto industry, we nationalized the biggest players. both hitler and obama dictated what kinds of cars to make. however the difference here ist hat its being organized through powerful ownership unions (soviets). so its both systems combined.

    is it any wonder that a hegelian hybrid is always what yuo get, and you are still looking for a horse, or a donkey, and let the mule pass

    both hitler, and stalin controlled what the general population would get, and both of them declared similar people to be oppressors. in germany though it went along the lines of religion, and productivity.. in russia, it was the same old oppressors, with the list expanded so that the hatred that being specific like the germans would not happen. they learned that if you kill indiscriminately or across a whole opressor class no one cares. the US turned over the extermination camps to stalin where he continued to exterminate jews for years.

    in german a second parallel legal system was created so that when the base legal system was no longer able to contain the contradictions to law, it didnt collapse but fell into the arms of the politicos.

    awe heck… it would take me a 400 page book to list out all the parallels, and because they dont speak german or russian, or calll themselves teh same names, you will deny until they are marchign us away.

53. I suggest reading some history to compare and contrast the present United States with pre-Nazi Germany and pre-Revolution Russia. The situations are extremely different.

    i HAVE listed out specific history books to read, did you read any of them? the sword and the sheild, the work of von campe, the work of milton sanford mayer, gulag archepeligo, and about 30 more.

    did you read any of the 40 or so histories to learn the stuff that would inform you about being a person in those times? No. not at all

    I suggest reading some history to compare and contrast the present United States with pre-Nazi Germany and pre-Revolution Russia. The situations are extremely different.

    let me know if this doesnt parallel today

    
    What no one seemed to notice … was the ever widening gap … between the government and the people … And it became always wider … the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting, it provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway …

    Pelosi, and others are completely out of touch. Others have stated (and i can quote them) that the moves make no sense. I have said they paralleled a prior history that i am enjoined to read, but i HAVE read those histories AND MORE histories.

    i said that the more out of touch they get, the more riled we get, the more riled we get, the easier it is to facilitate using the 400k troops, the emergency camps, and so forth.

    Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about … and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated …

    of course we cant make sense of why create huge crisis, like devaluing us currency. like nationalizeing the schools, key industries, and banking. dictating what we can or cant eat, smoke, or do. diminishing travel and potential establishments of internal passports.

    CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE….

    it kept people jumping and too busy discussing what inane things were going on.

    the difference in the histories is the difference between the facts at the top, and the facts at the bottom. 98% of all historioes are facts from the top, who did what, signed what, etc. and most of what actually goes on is not there as that is actually done by the bottom. and that is us.

    so I first enjoined you to read the histories where they describe how life was to live then…

    by the machinations of the ‘national enemies’, without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us … Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted’, that unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ …must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing … Each act … is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next.

    Got that? incrementalism and the inability to see where all these changes over 70 years lead to!!!

    this is the thing that those who are ingorant of history refuse to learn from!!!

    you learn nothing about anything when you learn that hitler and stalin signed an agreement

    but you learn a lot reading about what it was like being a person at home when that document was signed,a nd what happened then!

    You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone… you don’t want to go out of your way to make trouble … And it is not just fear … that restrains you, it is also genuine uncertainty …

    does the uncertainty of mobilizing before to unseat the person when votes would do, insured that no one will act once that person grabes the reigns of power.

    who would rip the reigns from hand once granted?

    
    And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it … But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty.

    and what have i been called? as i said, the reasonableness of those who cant add up the numbers and see the big picture gets people to sit on the beach when the water rushes out and a huge wave is going to hit.

    The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays.

    But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed.

    Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves, when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed…

    You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things your father … could never have imagined.”
    

    and dont we say that now?

    how can i prove that the spirit of america has changed? how could i prove to you huxley that the facts are not hiding in goose stepping, or contracts, and such… but in all the other things you think are normal!!!!!

    that was from
    Milton Sanford Mayer
    “They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-1945”
    1955, University of Chicago Press

    did you read the hilmar von campe histories?
    did you read the Milton Sanford Mayer histories?
    did you read the hayes tilden histories?
    did you read the 9 books of gramsci, as history?
    did you read the history of the frankfurt schoo?
    did you read the histories of the defectors, and archives?
    did you read the free history bella dodd wrote?
    did you read the free personal histories of those who surviced the gulags?

    did you read DEAR GOD I WANTED TO LIVE by Ruta U, who was a victim fo stalin and FDR?

    but you want us to read hsitories and say they will sooth us from any similarities?

    maybe if we read revisionist histories!!!!!!!!!
    or factual accounts, or deconstructed ones…

    [edited for length by neo-neocon]

54. Executive Orders which can threaten American’s Freedoms:

    EO 10995- All communications media seized by the federal government: Radio, television, newspapers, magazines, CB, HAM, short wave, telephones, satellites, and the internet. The First Amendment would be suspended.

    EO 10997- Seizure of all electrical power: fuels, including gasoline, and minerals.

    EO 10998- Seizure of all food resources: farms, and farm equipment. Anti-food hoarding will go into effect.

    EO 10999- Seizure of all kinds of highways, seaports, waterways, rail ways, airports, and public storage facilitates. The government can seize any vehicle.

    EO 11000- Seizure of all civilians for work under federal supervision.

    EO 11001- Federal takeover of all health, education and welfare, including hospitals, pharmaceuticals, and schools.

    EO 11002- Postmaster General empowered to register everyman, woman, and child in the U.S.A.

    EO 11003- Seizure of all aircraft and airports by the Federal Government.

    EO 11004- Housing and finance authority may shift populations from one locality to another. Hosing may be seized.

    EO 11005- Seizure of railroads, inland waterways, and storage facilities.

    EO 11051- The director of the Office of Emergency Planning authorized to put Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tension or “financial crisis.” He is also to perform such additional functions as the president may direct.

    EO- 11490- Presidential control over all U.S. citizens and businesses (including churches) in time of emergency.

    EO- 11921- The government would seize control over education, welfare, mechanisms of production and distribution, energy sources, wages, salaries, credit, and the flow of money in U.S. financial institutions and impose total censorship.

    EO 12919- Directs various cabinets’ officials to be constantly ready to take over virtually all aspects of the U.S. economy during a State of Emergency- at the direction of the president.

    EO 13010- Directs FEMA to take control over all government agencies in time of emergency. [Note: FEMA is now directly under the control of the president a his National Security Council]

    EO 13011- Creates a national information system, a massive new bureaucracy with authority to manage “Federal Information Technology” (signed by President Clinton on July 16, 1998) It links the data gathered by the health, Education, and Labor Departments to the data assessable to the FBI,CIA,EPA, and other federal agencies.

    National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive# 51 signed on May 9, 2007. When the president determines a catastrophic emergency has occurred, the president can take over all government functions and direct all private sector activities to ensure we will emerge from the emergency with an “enduring constitutional government.”

    The German people, before and during the Nazi’s rise to power, began to reject their Christian heritage, their history, their national heroes, and their traditions. The Nazi accelerated this obliteration of their history and heritage as they came to power. And this is precisely what the liberals, socialists, and the globalist crowd in America have been doing in recent years. Our heritage, history, heroes and traditions are being denigrated and obliterated. To quote the wisdom of our Founding Fathers today, or to cite the U.S. Constitution in a court of Law, in a public forum, or in the media, is to laughed and scorned, or looked down upon in disdain.

    Remember in George Orwell’s 1984, Big Brother erased the old history and heritage and fabricated a brand-new socialist history. The communist did the same thing in Russia and China. The same was done in Nazi Germany and the same is being done in America today through revisionist history and multiculturalism.

    it will all be edited down… and of course not read.

    and then someone will tell us there is no parallels… and tell us to read the new revisionist history… as they did in germany, russia and china.

    not reading these histories means not learnign of history you dont want to know.

    ignorance from cherry picking history is still ignorance.

55. The Nazis passed Draconian gun control laws to disarm the German people so that they could control them and set up their dictatorship. (The communist in Russia, China, and Cuba also disarmed their people.) Hitler bragged that: “1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future.” And the Nazi dictatorship was ushered in!

    America today is following Hitler’s lead ad the political left are pushing Nazi-style gun control laws and talk openly about disarming the American people. Aaron Zelman, head of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, did a comparison of the Nazi’s 1928 and 1938 gun control laws, and those passed in the U.S. in 1968 and since found them to be almost identical- as if they had been copied. There will be a big push to disarm Americans over the next year. It is a major element in the New World Order agenda and has been accomplished in Australia and England.

    funny… one can read about requests by senators for translatiosn of nazi laws before writing similar here in the US.

    Antonio Gramsci (founder of the Italian Communist Party) concluded in the 1920s and 1930s that the way to soften a targeted country for revolution and communism is to undermine its culture, its morals, ethics, sense of right versus wrong, it spiritual life, etc. Until that country is so weakened from within that it can be easily pushed into the hands of an all powerful dictatorship.

    History has proven that a country in moral, cultural, spiritual collapse (as America is today, as the Roman Empire was in its eleventh hour, or as Germany was in the 1920s and early 1930s) is about to lose its freedom. It no longer has the will or internal strength to resist tyranny.

    When Alexander Solzhenitsyn the Great Russian historian was asked on BBC television almost two decades ago, why Russia had lost its freedom under Communism, he said, “It was because we forgot God.” We as a people have forgotten God and our dependence on Him. We have become fat, dumb, lazy, complacent, and apathetic, and have lost our ability to even tell the difference between good and evil-nor do most Americans (including the Christian Church in America) worship the gods of materialism, affluence, pleasure, entertainment, and sexuality- in spite of the fact that the God of the Bible has said: “Thou shall have no other gods before Me.”

    Throughout history, when countries have become to our present state of decline, they have collapsed, and either been swept away by foreign invaders or sunken into totalitarian dictatorships as Russia did in 1917 and Germany did in 1933.
    

    sigh

56. I agree with Huxley on this. In order for Obama to successfully start up even a single death camp, he would have to somehow shut down or control all the communication systems in the US. I just don’t see him being able to wield that power, even though he does technically have it.

    What I do think is the danger Obama represents, though, is the fact that he is almost openly colluding with foreign powers that have already announced how they will be dividing the US up among themselves after they conquer it. Obama himself will wash his hands of the whole affair, maybe even throw a televised temper tantrum over how the US is “completely ungovernable” after he gets told “NO” too many times, use whatever authority he has left (such as his posession of the critical codes of the nuclear launch sequence, originally designed to keep even the most brilliant cryptographers in the military from being able to launch even a single nuke without the President’s direct approval) to strip away as many of the US’s defenses as possible, and then go to the more ruthless and realistic nations of the UN and say, “She’s all yours… just don’t televise what you do there, I can’t stand the sight of blood.”

57. thanks Artfldgr. I usually skip over your stuff because of their length and sometimes lack of focus and lack of editing. But this time I read everything. I, too, have been reading history about pre WWII Germany and pre and post WWII Russia. I’ve had a disquieting sense about parallels between our time with Obama and the creations of German and Russian totalitarianism. Your comments helped. Thanks.

58. This is not the first time those of us who post here with some frequency have disagreed about where we are headed–call it the serious alarmists (the RFR of the main post) v. those who believe American constitutionalism will, in the end, prevail. I, myself, go back and forth, but as time passes and events unfold I become more of a serious alarmist (RFR). If I understand neo correctly, she’s becoming more alarmist over time, as well. I’ve noticed for some time that she occasionally bothers to translate artfldgr’s posts, with favorable commentary, which is a trick. I think he may be laboring under a language barrier, based on some of the biographical information he includes in his posts. But his posts are extremely insightful, I think.

    Huxley, I understand what you mean about conditions in revolutionary and pre-revolutionary Russia and in inter-war Germany differing from the conditions we face now. But conditions are always different, are they not. It’s also worth pointing out that pre-revolutionary Russia and inter-war Germany differed vastly from each-other–certainly more than Germany then differed from where we are now. Yet they both fell to totalitarianism. The point is that I don’t think you have to have duplicating conditions to imagine that any number of governments might fall.

59. I think he may be laboring under a language barrier, based on some of the biographical information he includes in his posts. But his posts are extremely insightful, I think.

    no language barrier other than younger people dont understand waht terms mean anymore.

    that you can say socialism is bad, and they dont understand that socialism is the process, communism is the end, and dictatorship is how you get there (And there is no other ideology variant since its conserved).

    It’s also worth pointing out that pre-revolutionary Russia and inter-war Germany differed vastly from each-other—certainly more than Germany then differed from where we are now.

    oh very much so. thik of it this way… the russians were brutal animals… the germans were refined murderes and finer things…

    the germans looked to the russians as animals, and that the leaders kept them living like animals. their war machine was stopped not by great strategy, but technically by weather (like napoleon) and lack of roads and other modern things. its why europe was much easier to conquer, they wer fat and lazy on their success, and they had an infrastructure that enabled blitz (lightning).

    my language barrier is that so many who think themselves knowlegeable, dont know how or where they lack. i know wher i lack, and so i keep going to anything i find out i dont know, and dig into it.

    here, i will give you an example from this thread…

    I agree with Huxley on this. In order for Obama to successfully start up even a single death camp, he would have to somehow shut down or control all the communication systems in the US. I just don’t see him being able to wield that power, even though he does technically have it.

    and above that post is a list of the signing statements that establish such an end.

    he doesnt need to sign anything!!! he only needs to say we are in a crisis, and those signing statements from prior admins, which set it all up for someone in the future come into place.

    He would have to somehow shut down or control all the communication systems in the US.

    EO 10995- All communications media seized by the federal government: Radio, television, newspapers, magazines, CB, HAM, short wave, telephones, satellites, and the internet. The First Amendment would be suspended.

    so he has the power to do that and its all in place funded and such…

    National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive# 51 signed on May 9, 2007. When the president determines a catastrophic emergency has occurred, the president can take over all government functions and direct all private sector activities

    and he doesnt have to sign anything. all he needs is iran to set off a nuke… (or russia to do it let iran take the blame). or any one of a thousand things.

    this was the set of facts that got the left scared of bush, but nor realize that it was their socialism, their desire for dictatorship of the poor over the middle class controlled by a few elite, made them ignore everything.

    and as far as building them, we already have them, and the army runs them. ergo this document

    Civilian Inmate Labor Program
    http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r210_35.pdf

    sure sounds like the military will be running work camps no?

    they exist already… but most deny them. they dont realize that we never decommissioned teh camps we used for the japanese.

    anyone remember or know about the “ADEX” list.
    Rex 84 was mentioned during the Iran-Contra Hearings in 1987.

    from 1967 to 1971 the FBI kept a list of over 100,000 persons to be rounded up as subversive, dubbed the “ADEX” list.[7] This list contained many labor leaders, scholars, and public figures of the time.

    In 2008, for the first time an active military unit has been given a dedicated assignment stateside for civil unrest containment. It is assigned to Northcom, a joint command established in 2002 to provide command and control for federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities.[8]

    these are the 400k that was requested…

    National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSPD-51

    not to be confused with hitlers directives..
    of which 51 was the strengthening of the atlantic wall.

    Such an emergency is construed as “any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions.”

    a fe millino marching to washington again, a prepared agit prop from socialists, and voila… an excuse to round people up for opposing the state.

    they are working to this… they are already portraying the speech. but those who believe follow, and those that dont blieve, dont belive others are that gullible or stupid.

    The presidential directive says that, when the president considers an emergency to have occurred, an “Enduring Constitutional Government” comprising “a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President,” will take the place of the nation’s regular government, presumably without the oversight of Congress.[3]

    that is, when the president feels like it, the old state is gone, and the new state takes affect, and they promise to give it back to us when they are through.

    Conservative activist Jerome Corsi and Marjorie Cohn of the National Lawyers Guild have said that this is a violation of the Constitution of the United States in that the three branches of government are separate and equal, with no single branch coordinating the others.[4][5] The directive, created by the president, claims that the president has the power to declare a catastrophic emergency. It does not specify who has the power to declare the emergency over.
    

    so the move has a latch… the legal power to make, and no legal power to break and return.

    its a one way ticket… and december he signs our rights away… then the riots will create the need to call this a catastrophe.

    after all, whe people erfuse to work to make a change, they will seize and control them under military law under this new thing.

    The directive further says that, in the case of such an emergency, the new position of “National Continuity Coordinator” would be filled by the assistant to the president for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism (this position was held by Frances Townsend until her resignation on November 19, 2007 and is now held by Kenneth L. Wainstein.[6]) The directive also specifies that a “Continuity Policy Coordination Committee”, to be chaired by a senior director of the Homeland Security Council staff, and selected by the National Continuity Coordinator, shall be “the main day-to-day forum for such policy coordination”.

    The directive ends by describing a number of “annexes”, of which Annex A is described as being not classified but which does not appear on the directive’s Web page:

    “(23) Annex A and the classified Continuity Annexes, attached hereto, are hereby incorporated into and made a part of this directive.

    “(24) Security. This directive and the information contained herein shall be protected from unauthorized disclosure, provided that, except for Annex A, the Annexes attached to this directive are classified and shall be accorded appropriate handling, consistent with applicable Executive Orders.”

    so alas, our reporters cant report on it.

    The signing of this Directive was generally not covered by the mainstream U.S. media or discussed by the U.S. Congress. While similar executive security directives have been issued by previous presidents, with their texts kept secret, this is the first to be made public in part. It is unclear how the National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive will reconcile with the National Emergencies Act, a U.S. federal law passed in 1976, which gives Congress oversight over presidential emergency powers during such emergencies. The National Emergencies Act is not mentioned in the text of the National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive.

    you can read more here
    NATIONAL CONTINUITY POLICY
    ANNEX A / CATEGORIES OF DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES
    http://www.fbiic.gov/archive_07/doc/NSPD_HSPD_AnnexA.doc

    anyone want to figure in how the czars fit in?

    and how the unconstitutional laws they have beenmaking but not enforcing so they cant be challenged, come into effect whole?

    these camps dont exist, thats why i can show you job requests above that request people who are to be trained in internments.

    http://www.goarmy.com/JobDetail.do?id=292
    “Internment/Resettlement (I/R) Specialists in the Army are primarily responsible for day-to-day operations in a military confinement/correctional facility or detention/internment facility. I/R Specialists provide rehabilitative, health, welfare, and security to U.S. military prisoners within a confinement or correctional facility; conduct inspections; prepare written reports; and coordinate activities of prisoners/internees and staff personnel.

    and remember the homeland security report that pegged people who discuss stuff like we do as right wing extremists? http://www.wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf

    they know who they are going to move, they just dont tell us, and once in a while they slip up.

    “[T]he consequences of a prolonged economic downturn — including real estate foreclosures, unemployment and an inability to obtain credit — could create a fertile recruiting environment for right-wing extremists and even result in confrontations between such groups and government authorities similar to those in the past,” the report says.

    and our preparing ourselves
    “The high volume of purchases and stockpiling of weapons and ammunition by right-wing extremists in anticipation of restrictions and bans in some parts of the country continue to be a primary concern to law enforcement.”

    “My review of the procedures used by the MIAC in the three years since its inception indicates that the mechanism in place for oversight of reports needs improvement,” he wrote. “Until two weeks ago, the process for release of reports from the MIAC to law enforcement officers around the state required no review by leaders of the Missouri State Highway Patrol or the Department of Public Safety.”
    

    that doesnt say we are reviewing so we can stop them… no. they are reviewing so that the language is changed so that those who are wont, can pick language and say its not the same.

    Army National Guard Recruiting FEMA Camp Or “Internment/Resettlement” Specialists
    canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/13417

    The Army National Guard is now recruiting individuals to fill job positions described as an internment/resettlement specialist according to job postings on Monster.Com and other employment based Internet sites such as one listed here. In other words, they are recruiting individuals to man facilities that could be used to house political dissidents, so-called terrorists and other individuals that the government doesn’t like. The term “resettlement” indicates that individuals holding this job position could also be responsible for moving people to other locations against their will. It is a documented fact that the U.S. government has numerous facilities at their disposal that could easily be used to house large numbers of people. Combine that, with this new job posting by the Army National Guard, and it seems as if the U.S. government is continuing to prepare for an eventual popular uprising.

    you mean like protesting the changes being made? or the signing away of our sovereignity in december coming up?

    HR 645 the National Emergency Centers Establishment Act is a proposed bill in the U.S. House of Representatives that would authorize FEMA to build no less than six National Emergency Centers throughout the U.S. on closed or open military facilities. These facilities are to be designed to house large numbers of people. Why would emergency centers need to be built on closed or open military facilities unless there was a need to keep people from coming in and out of them?
    

    did they build them?

    i dont know, but as i siad, the japanese ones are still around.

    Bush To Preserve WWII Internment Camps
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/23/national/main2293979.shtml

    and on people saying that military men wont comply and they will resist. didnt everyone remember the report singling out men coming back from serving?

    
    But Thompson noted that the report also targeted as “potential terrorists” Americans who:

    Oppose abortion

    Oppose same-sex marriage

    Oppose restrictions on firearms

    Oppose lax immigration laws

    Oppose the policies of President Obama regarding immigration, citizenship, and the expansion of social programs

    Oppose continuation of free trade agreements

    Are suspect of foreign regimes

    Fear Communist regimes

    Oppose a “one world” government

    Bemoan the decline of U.S. stature in the world

    Are upset with loss of U.S. manufacturing jobs to China and India, and more
    

    so they already have reported, planned, designated and funded stuff.

    read that list… its basically a list of what the right doesnt like about the administration, and is basically a list that says, like our planks or else.

60. dam n no wonder we cant get out of it, we cant even talk about it without it being too long.

61. this whole argyument is really not an argument as to facts. its an argument in positive thinking vs realism.

    that is, the realist says what they see is what they see… they dont want to make it happier… the postitive thinking reasonable person wants to put a reasonable happy spin on everything.

    there is a reason why we had a self esteem movement, after feminism movement, etc.

    Positive thinking is positively bad for you
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1220783/Positive-thinking-positively-bad-look-glum-slide-life.html

62. Artfldgr: And blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda.

    Learn to write in a manner appropriate to the forum, as opposed to your usual manner of simply evacuating, and perhaps I will read your posts.

    While you’re at it, consider the possibility that others may honestly disagree with you and have their points to make. Meanwhile, no one, not even yourself, is perfect and omniscient.

63. This track is probably closed by now but Huxley: as I’ve said before, I appreciate your views. I wrote a question for you way back when, but apparently you never saw it. I’d like to see what you think. Here it is:

    Huxley – I agree with you most of the time on Obama things, but this time I think your position is overly cautious. My sense is that there are a lot more people out there predisposed toward what the DC report calls right wingers than you think. I can certainly see my reflection in it, so I guess I’m a right winger which is news to me. Retardo’s advice above about being patient but tough minded in interactions with Obama’s minions makes good sense and we should listen to him. But your advice appears to be to go conservative light somehow in our interactions with others. To do that though is to play to not lose instead of to play to win. The country went through that already with McCain. There is a difference between playing not to lose and playing to win. Let’s play to win and let’s use the descriptions in the DC report as our gateway to that, even if that means being tagged as a right winger by those or other people.

64. While you’re at it, consider the possibility that others may honestly disagree with you and have their points to make.

    Hux would be wise to take his own advice before attempting to proselytize to anyone else.

65. See oathkeepers.org. Tiny at present, but let us hope.
    I respect Artfldgr’s prodigious homework. It will take some time for me to check out. But if he’s not making this stuff up (and I have looked enough to feel confident that he isn’t), our ship of state is slowly, but with increasing momentum, capsizing. We are nearing inexorability. Obama has the profound benefit of two more generations of Gramscian revisionism and mind-warping than FDR. And FDR for all his faults, was no Baraq, who means us all harm.

66. Artfldgr . . .

    I think you are finding many similarities between the U.S. and various totalitarian regimes, but are not seeing the differences.

    I too am very concerned about the direction Obama’s administration is taking us. However, this country has a lot more local governments than the European countries probably did. Also, it is one thing to write a decree and another to have it enforced. Also, our culture includes democratic thinking and practices. Finally, it would probably be difficult for foreign governments to occupy the U.S. because we also have a large army and the foreign armies would have to get their troops here and then take it over.

    As far as socialism leading to communism, I guess I have to raise the example of the Scandinavians, who have lived under socialism for years. They never actually went so far as to take all the property from the rich and middle class people and give it to the peasants. Something probably prevented that from happening.

67. “Matthew 7.5: First cast out the beam in your own eye; and then you shall see clearly to cast out the mote from your brother’s eye.”

    Well, here we have biblical authority. Religion really does poison everything.

68. Promethea:

    Please recall that the executive branch of our government has the responsibility (power?) of enforcement. That’s disquieting, to say no more, in our present condition. The executive branch also controls the regulatory apparatus, which is where the power resides right now. It’s not necessary for the Congress to pass laws regarding all of this–the attacks on Fox, etc. All Obama has to do is impose regulations. And that’s what he’s doing.

    The Scandinavian model isn’t apropos.

69. I wouldn’t be as worried as I am if I weren’t dead bang certain that the poison of rewarding efforts toward achieving the correct political narrative is a foundational motivation for these gomers we have allowed into power.

    Destroying the system – destroying it simply because they have found it wanting – in the utter absence of any real option for going forward after the last brick is taken down off the edifice of the republic is perfectly acceptable to them.

    They will be acting out of the best of intentions. All their professional lives, the real ideologues among them have had their tickets punched not for achievement but for conformity.

    Ask a Cambodian how a political upheaval along those lines works.

70. Promethea, betsy, excellent comments….

    must think now… 🙂

71. I’d just like to point out, since I didn’t make it clear earlier, that I think Obama is really a symptom of the disease rather than the disease itself.

    The real problem is the degree that Marxist/Communist ideology has embedded itself in American society, to a degree that was unimaginable a few decades ago. Many people today routinely express opinions and ideas that are thoroughly Communist without even realizing it. The Gramscian long march through the institutions has been a resounding success. The proof is in the millions of idealistic young people who believed in Hope and Change, and the millions of white people who voted for a black candidate–any black candidate–simply because it was the PC thing to do.

    Which makes me look at the 1950s John Birch Society in a new light. They constantly railed against Communist subversion and One World Government, and were relentlessly mocked as paranoid crazies on the lunatic fringe. Well, here we are.

72. and weirder still is that if we listened to the birchers we wouldnt be here at this point, and can you imagine what inventions and things we would have if energy was unleashed for the past 30 years?

    (not that i agree with birch society, just working off your point)

73. Another way of putting it:

    Obama makes the birchers look sane…

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