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	<title>Comments on: Swallowing the leviathan: the House health care reform bill</title>
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		<title>By: notherbob2</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131936</link>
		<dc:creator>notherbob2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131936</guid>
		<description>Update:  Scozzafava endorses her Democrat opponent:

“...I am writing to let you know I am supporting Bill Owens for Congress and urge you to do the same...

...I strongly believe Bill is the only candidate who can build upon John McHugh&#039;s lasting legacy in the U.S. Congress. John and I worked together on the expansion of Fort Drum [!!!] and I know how important that base is to the economy of this region. I am confident that Bill will be able to provide the leadership and continuity of support to Drum Country [“Drum Country!!] just as John did during his tenure in Congress.”

PS:  no html http://watertowndailytimes.com/article/20091101/NEWS09/911019992</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Update:  Scozzafava endorses her Democrat opponent:</p>
<p>“&#8230;I am writing to let you know I am supporting Bill Owens for Congress and urge you to do the same&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;I strongly believe Bill is the only candidate who can build upon John McHugh&#8217;s lasting legacy in the U.S. Congress. John and I worked together on the expansion of Fort Drum [!!!] and I know how important that base is to the economy of this region. I am confident that Bill will be able to provide the leadership and continuity of support to Drum Country [“Drum Country!!] just as John did during his tenure in Congress.”</p>
<p>PS:  no html <a href="http://watertowndailytimes.com/article/20091101/NEWS09/911019992" rel="nofollow">http://watertowndailytimes.com/article/20091101/NEWS09/911019992</a></p>
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		<title>By: notherbob2</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131933</link>
		<dc:creator>notherbob2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131933</guid>
		<description>Ooops on the html.  Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops on the html.  Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: notherbob2</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131932</link>
		<dc:creator>notherbob2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131932</guid>
		<description>Prior to last Saturday the Watertown Daily Times had endorsed Republican  Dede Scozzafava for Congress in NY23.  Here is a quote from:


&lt;b&gt;“In her statement ...[Scozzafava] explained...  &quot;I hereby release those individuals who have endorsed and supported my campaign to transfer their support as they see fit to do so”...During the day Saturday, she began to quietly and thoughtfully encourage her supporters to vote for Democrat William L. Owens.... The Times [also] endorses Bill Owens for Congress.”&lt;/b&gt;

The &lt;em&gt; biggest liberal &lt;/em&gt;in the race, even though running on the Republican ticket, drops out, then encourages her supporters to vote for the &lt;strong&gt;next-biggest liberal [a Democrat]&lt;/strong&gt; even though he was her opponent!  

Clearly, the conservative critics were correct to object so strongly to the NRCC running such a candidate in the first place.   What kind of candidate, for &lt;em&gt;whatever&lt;/em&gt; reason, recommends her opposing party opponent after dropping out?  And what does this mean for all those Republicans who donated money to her party in support of her candidacy?  I’ll tell you.  It means that their dollars are now supporting the &lt;em&gt;opposing party candidate&lt;/em&gt;! What kind of idiots put up such a candidate?   

Having gotten rid of Scozzafava, local Republicans should rid themselves of those who appointed her as the Republican candidate – and perhaps  Newt Gingrich  should be &lt;strike&gt;hung&lt;/strike&gt; censored for being stupid enough to be roped into supporting her. End of story, right?  

Not so fast.  There is more to this story.

There is a large military base (Fort Drum) in the NY 23d District that is in danger of being closed.  We can guess, if history is any guide, that simply because its survival is in question, it probably should be closed for the good of America.  The loss of jobs, etc., however, would not be good in the short run for the 23d District of NY.  

The Watertown Times is worried that if a conservative is elected to represent their District in Congress, the military base will be closed.  OK.  Politics as usual (perhaps more so, given the Chicago Way regime now in power in Washington, DC).  The Times is saying:  “Let’s elect a liberal and maybe we can save our base.”  Cynical, yes.  But, hey, if one &lt;strong&gt;likes&lt;/strong&gt; the way things are going in America, why not elect another liberal, Republican or Democrat?  If one &lt;strong&gt;doesn’t like&lt;/strong&gt; the way things are going, well, do you want the base to close?  Either way, never mind what&#039;s good for America, vote for the liberal and save the base.  Disgusting.  Now end of story, right?

No.

The real point in the current election in NY23 is that The Chicago Way is not the way that principled Americans of &lt;strong&gt;any&lt;/strong&gt; party want America to go.  Liberal Democrats in NY23 don’t seem to care about the Chicago way becoming the American Way.  The main thing is to retain the military base in their District.  Principle be damned.  Compromise for the good of America be damned.  Do the right thing be damned.  Just get as much rent from the Feds as you can, any way that you can.  

I can hear the NY23 liberals now:  “It’s&lt;em&gt;“for the children”&lt;/em&gt;- of the workers who will be laid off if the base closes. “Have you no heart for these &lt;strong&gt;families&lt;/strong&gt;”?  Oh yeah, screw the families who don’t live in NY23 who are paying more taxes and getting nothing for it if the base stays wastefully open.  “What?  Are you some kind of rural rube who believes that we all should be patriotic and trim government waste even if it might hurt us personally?  Sheesh!  You probably are one of those rednecks who wants the right to bear arms too.”
The Watertown Times doesn’t care:

&lt;b&gt;”The Democratic candidate ...Mr. Owens has remained focused on the economy and job creation throughout his campaign. At the same time, he has shown an understanding of the military,..”&lt;/b&gt;

Yes, “&lt;strong&gt;an understanding of the military&lt;/strong&gt;;”.  Just in case their readers are too dense to get it.  

Now I can disclose my intent in making this comment, if it is not obvious.  My comment is not about the schism in the Republican party and why it was wrong to run a disloyal liberal on the Republican ticket.  That is obvious.  My intent  is to highlight the difference between conservatives and liberals using NY23 as an example. 

Who stands for principle?  And who are cynical, sell-out, unprincipled [fill in the negatives included in the recent discussion here of what is wrong with liberals] rent-seeking dregs in our society?  Hint:  It starts with an “L” or a “P”.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prior to last Saturday the Watertown Daily Times had endorsed Republican  Dede Scozzafava for Congress in NY23.  Here is a quote from:</p>
<p><b>“In her statement &#8230;[Scozzafava] explained&#8230;  &#8220;I hereby release those individuals who have endorsed and supported my campaign to transfer their support as they see fit to do so”&#8230;During the day Saturday, she began to quietly and thoughtfully encourage her supporters to vote for Democrat William L. Owens&#8230;. The Times [also] endorses Bill Owens for Congress.”</b></p>
<p>The <em> biggest liberal </em>in the race, even though running on the Republican ticket, drops out, then encourages her supporters to vote for the <strong>next-biggest liberal [a Democrat]</strong> even though he was her opponent!  </p>
<p>Clearly, the conservative critics were correct to object so strongly to the NRCC running such a candidate in the first place.   What kind of candidate, for <em>whatever</em> reason, recommends her opposing party opponent after dropping out?  And what does this mean for all those Republicans who donated money to her party in support of her candidacy?  I’ll tell you.  It means that their dollars are now supporting the <em>opposing party candidate</em>! What kind of idiots put up such a candidate?   </p>
<p>Having gotten rid of Scozzafava, local Republicans should rid themselves of those who appointed her as the Republican candidate – and perhaps  Newt Gingrich  should be <strike>hung</strike> censored for being stupid enough to be roped into supporting her. End of story, right?  </p>
<p>Not so fast.  There is more to this story.</p>
<p>There is a large military base (Fort Drum) in the NY 23d District that is in danger of being closed.  We can guess, if history is any guide, that simply because its survival is in question, it probably should be closed for the good of America.  The loss of jobs, etc., however, would not be good in the short run for the 23d District of NY.  </p>
<p>The Watertown Times is worried that if a conservative is elected to represent their District in Congress, the military base will be closed.  OK.  Politics as usual (perhaps more so, given the Chicago Way regime now in power in Washington, DC).  The Times is saying:  “Let’s elect a liberal and maybe we can save our base.”  Cynical, yes.  But, hey, if one <strong>likes</strong> the way things are going in America, why not elect another liberal, Republican or Democrat?  If one <strong>doesn’t like</strong> the way things are going, well, do you want the base to close?  Either way, never mind what&#8217;s good for America, vote for the liberal and save the base.  Disgusting.  Now end of story, right?</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>The real point in the current election in NY23 is that The Chicago Way is not the way that principled Americans of <strong>any</strong> party want America to go.  Liberal Democrats in NY23 don’t seem to care about the Chicago way becoming the American Way.  The main thing is to retain the military base in their District.  Principle be damned.  Compromise for the good of America be damned.  Do the right thing be damned.  Just get as much rent from the Feds as you can, any way that you can.  </p>
<p>I can hear the NY23 liberals now:  “It’s<em>“for the children”</em>- of the workers who will be laid off if the base closes. “Have you no heart for these <strong>families</strong>”?  Oh yeah, screw the families who don’t live in NY23 who are paying more taxes and getting nothing for it if the base stays wastefully open.  “What?  Are you some kind of rural rube who believes that we all should be patriotic and trim government waste even if it might hurt us personally?  Sheesh!  You probably are one of those rednecks who wants the right to bear arms too.”<br />
The Watertown Times doesn’t care:</p>
<p><b>”The Democratic candidate &#8230;Mr. Owens has remained focused on the economy and job creation throughout his campaign. At the same time, he has shown an understanding of the military,..”</b></p>
<p>Yes, “<strong>an understanding of the military</strong>;”.  Just in case their readers are too dense to get it.  </p>
<p>Now I can disclose my intent in making this comment, if it is not obvious.  My comment is not about the schism in the Republican party and why it was wrong to run a disloyal liberal on the Republican ticket.  That is obvious.  My intent  is to highlight the difference between conservatives and liberals using NY23 as an example. </p>
<p>Who stands for principle?  And who are cynical, sell-out, unprincipled [fill in the negatives included in the recent discussion here of what is wrong with liberals] rent-seeking dregs in our society?  Hint:  It starts with an “L” or a “P”.</p>
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		<title>By: expat</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131877</link>
		<dc:creator>expat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 11:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131877</guid>
		<description>betsybounds,

I&#039;m not exactly talking about putting our faith in the blue dogs. I&#039;m talking about chipping away at the power structure from every side, no matter how small the individual chip. Reid is already losing some of his power because he can&#039;t control the blue dogs. Take the issue of tort reform and ask every rep whether it&#039;s true that Nancy Pelosi won&#039;t allow it because of donations. Ask whether that is really what the Dems are all about. Make Congress justify refusing the reform. Do this before a local audience. Make them feel that Pelosi is making their life very difficult at home. The more questions and resistance Reid and Pelosi get from their own party, the more likely they will be to make mistakes and look incompetent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>betsybounds,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not exactly talking about putting our faith in the blue dogs. I&#8217;m talking about chipping away at the power structure from every side, no matter how small the individual chip. Reid is already losing some of his power because he can&#8217;t control the blue dogs. Take the issue of tort reform and ask every rep whether it&#8217;s true that Nancy Pelosi won&#8217;t allow it because of donations. Ask whether that is really what the Dems are all about. Make Congress justify refusing the reform. Do this before a local audience. Make them feel that Pelosi is making their life very difficult at home. The more questions and resistance Reid and Pelosi get from their own party, the more likely they will be to make mistakes and look incompetent.</p>
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		<title>By: rickl</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131869</link>
		<dc:creator>rickl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 07:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131869</guid>
		<description>notherbob2:

Thank you for your service and for your comments earlier.

I likewise consider myself to be more of a libertarian than a conservative.  I&#039;ve also been an agnostic for most of my life.  Nevertheless, I would support a Christian fundamentalist over a socialist any day of the week, especially if they&#039;re for free enterprise and limited government.  I have no desire to live in a theocracy, but I just don&#039;t feel threatened by them.

(I&#039;m not saying that you feel threatened by them, but a lot of people apparently do.)

Now on the other hand, the present-day Republican Party does seem to be top-heavy with religious and social conservatives, and has a dearth of economic and limited-government conservatives.  Politicians like Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum seem to be all too eager to use the power of government to &quot;improve&quot; people.

I agree that I would like to see schools concentrate on education, but Judeo-Christian prayer hardly seems worse than the environmentalist religion that kids are now being force-fed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>notherbob2:</p>
<p>Thank you for your service and for your comments earlier.</p>
<p>I likewise consider myself to be more of a libertarian than a conservative.  I&#8217;ve also been an agnostic for most of my life.  Nevertheless, I would support a Christian fundamentalist over a socialist any day of the week, especially if they&#8217;re for free enterprise and limited government.  I have no desire to live in a theocracy, but I just don&#8217;t feel threatened by them.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;m not saying that you feel threatened by them, but a lot of people apparently do.)</p>
<p>Now on the other hand, the present-day Republican Party does seem to be top-heavy with religious and social conservatives, and has a dearth of economic and limited-government conservatives.  Politicians like Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum seem to be all too eager to use the power of government to &#8220;improve&#8221; people.</p>
<p>I agree that I would like to see schools concentrate on education, but Judeo-Christian prayer hardly seems worse than the environmentalist religion that kids are now being force-fed.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131862</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 05:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131862</guid>
		<description>betsybounds:
I tell the two kids who will listen that we are living in 1859. It sometimes feels like it&#039;s playing out in slo-mo. 

I am a tad old for what&#039;s coming, but I intend to pull a Charlton Heston before the enemy is done with me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>betsybounds:<br />
I tell the two kids who will listen that we are living in 1859. It sometimes feels like it&#8217;s playing out in slo-mo. </p>
<p>I am a tad old for what&#8217;s coming, but I intend to pull a Charlton Heston before the enemy is done with me.</p>
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		<title>By: betsybounds</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131857</link>
		<dc:creator>betsybounds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 04:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131857</guid>
		<description>Tom,

I think you are completely correct.  I wish I did not think so.  

But yes, they will be coming for us.  We need to be thinking ahead.  I don&#039;t think those who are content to wait for the 2010 elections are lazy--I tend to think they are simply insulated by their experience. But in the end, that may be a distinction without a difference.

Oh Lord.  Please let this not be true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,</p>
<p>I think you are completely correct.  I wish I did not think so.  </p>
<p>But yes, they will be coming for us.  We need to be thinking ahead.  I don&#8217;t think those who are content to wait for the 2010 elections are lazy&#8211;I tend to think they are simply insulated by their experience. But in the end, that may be a distinction without a difference.</p>
<p>Oh Lord.  Please let this not be true.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131856</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 04:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131856</guid>
		<description>We are in a chess game here, people. We  must look ahead beyond the adversary&#039;s (enemy&#039;s a better word) next move, and plan our further moves accordingly. We can plan if the 2010 election either reverses the Dem takeover of the American Way or does not. If it does not, due to vote fraud, what is our next step? And so forth.
But to simply do nothing but wait for the outcome in Nov 2010 in expectation that it will set things aright is stupid, shortsighted; at worst, lazy. If we do nothing more, Artfldgr and I and others know what&#039;s coming: They&#039;ll be coming for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are in a chess game here, people. We  must look ahead beyond the adversary&#8217;s (enemy&#8217;s a better word) next move, and plan our further moves accordingly. We can plan if the 2010 election either reverses the Dem takeover of the American Way or does not. If it does not, due to vote fraud, what is our next step? And so forth.<br />
But to simply do nothing but wait for the outcome in Nov 2010 in expectation that it will set things aright is stupid, shortsighted; at worst, lazy. If we do nothing more, Artfldgr and I and others know what&#8217;s coming: They&#8217;ll be coming for us.</p>
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		<title>By: betsybounds</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131855</link>
		<dc:creator>betsybounds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 04:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131855</guid>
		<description>expat:

The problem with regarding the Blue Dogs as potential renegades is that the people in charge (Pelosi and her crew) have honed enforcement of party discipline to a fine art.  Most of the alleged Blue Dogs are susceptible to pressure from the Leadership, including Pelosi et al.   We must remember that the party honchos have many control mechanisms, simply by virtue of the powers inherent in their positions.  The conservative Democrats in the House of Representatives were, many of them, recruited as candidates and elected specifically because they are conservatives from conservative districts, based upon the premise that all politics is local (this, btw, is only occasionally true).  They were elected as conservatives before they were elected as Democrats.  But once they got to Washington, they were members of a now-liberal (Democrat) majority.  They have no power beyond what the majority power brokers agree to grant them.  They can either be traitors to the party that got them there, or they can toe the party line.  It&#039;s not a pretty choice for them, but nevertheless there you are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>expat:</p>
<p>The problem with regarding the Blue Dogs as potential renegades is that the people in charge (Pelosi and her crew) have honed enforcement of party discipline to a fine art.  Most of the alleged Blue Dogs are susceptible to pressure from the Leadership, including Pelosi et al.   We must remember that the party honchos have many control mechanisms, simply by virtue of the powers inherent in their positions.  The conservative Democrats in the House of Representatives were, many of them, recruited as candidates and elected specifically because they are conservatives from conservative districts, based upon the premise that all politics is local (this, btw, is only occasionally true).  They were elected as conservatives before they were elected as Democrats.  But once they got to Washington, they were members of a now-liberal (Democrat) majority.  They have no power beyond what the majority power brokers agree to grant them.  They can either be traitors to the party that got them there, or they can toe the party line.  It&#8217;s not a pretty choice for them, but nevertheless there you are.</p>
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		<title>By: Oblio</title>
		<link>http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131852</link>
		<dc:creator>Oblio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 03:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/30/swallowing-the-leviathan-the-house-health-care-reform-bill/#comment-131852</guid>
		<description>expat, you are right: the Dems are not monolithic.  I think they are split 60/40 non-leftist vs Leftists. Problem is, the non-Leftists are afraid of the Leftists, and the non-Leftists in Congress are also afraid of going home to face their blue dog voters.

&quot;The crackup of the Republican Party&quot; is a favorite story of the Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself), perhaps because it allows them to focus on something other than their own internal tensions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>expat, you are right: the Dems are not monolithic.  I think they are split 60/40 non-leftist vs Leftists. Problem is, the non-Leftists are afraid of the Leftists, and the non-Leftists in Congress are also afraid of going home to face their blue dog voters.</p>
<p>&#8220;The crackup of the Republican Party&#8221; is a favorite story of the Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself), perhaps because it allows them to focus on something other than their own internal tensions.</p>
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