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Death of Polish President Kaczynski — 74 Comments

  1. I doubt very much that any kind of foul play was involved here. According to news reports I’ve seen, the pilot was attempting to land in thick fog, apparently below limits for that airport/aircraft, and had been advised to proceed to an alternate airport. We use to call it “Get-Home-Itis,” and it has killed many people over the course of the last hundred years of aviation history.

  2. Die Welt also reported that a Russian plane made two attempts at landing at Smolensk about a half hour before the crash. The pilot gave up the attempt and returned home. The airport was supposedly closed because of the fog.

  3. You’re correct neo, it is indeed hard not to be suspicious about this. My head tells me it is what it is, a tragic accident of uncany coincidence given the place and the occasion. But my heart still harbors that niggling suspicion…..it almost seems too damn coincidental in many respects. Just a deep seeded untrust of the ‘Russians’ left over from my childhood I suppose, but the awful irony of it all.

  4. The pilot didn’t want to inconvenience his masters and overrode his better judgment to land in a fogged in airport.What an awful,senseless waste and a national tragedy for Poland.The symbolism is achingly poignant.

  5. I’m no pilot, but aren’t instruments made just for this sort of landing? How can you be on a correct glide path and hit a tree top?

  6. It’s possible, I guess, but what would Russia gain from it? Certainly, it’s been a Russian objective for years to break up the Europe-US alliance. A Brussels-Moscow “understanding” based on proximity, energy and a common disdain for American-style liberty has been slowly but steadily developing. The last thing Russia would want is to blow it now by reawakening old suspicions and hatreds.

    On the other hand, this is the second time this week that a government friendly to the US has abruptly disappeared.

  7. It is natural to wonder, as someone on another blog wondered, if the plane full of Polish leaders hadn’t been “KGB’d”

    It also occurred to me to wonder, if they were “KGB’d,” if Putin et al would have dared to pull this mass assissination off if we had a strong American President, who would have likely reacted very negatively and forcefully to this “accident.”

    I note, in passing, that there has been a lot of this “major leader killed in an airplane accident” thing going around for the last several decades–Dag Hammarskjold comes to mind.

  8. This is the lesson of honor, in which and why older cultures tried to at least not do certain things. why? because once done, it takes literally many lifetimes before one no longer cant tell if its a real accident or a convenient one.

    there is absolutely no way to know.

    but we all will have our suspicions based on even recent behavior

  9. It’s only natural for Poles to point their fingers at Putin.
    This thread on BBC blogs is an instructive one.
    I wouldn’t call this story “an irony”; somebody form that thread called it “a cruel joke of fate”- it’s more appropriate.

    I think, though, that this story is much too crude to be of deliberate design, even for Russians. Putin wouldn’t gain anything by this display (unlike other displays -London’ poisoning by Polonium, f.i.) . He is not Obama – he wouldn’t upset his closest neighbors and allies and EU while his country is not exactly very strong and he doesn’t hold all the cards. He’s an adult, and he’s smart.

    Of course, conspiracy theories are abound, and I think they will multiply and will never cease, just like Kennedy assassination’ theories.
    Personally, I share this opinion in BBC’ thread, and also this.

  10. Stiven, the aircraft was not on glide path, but seriously below it by altitude and 30 degrees to the left of it. Traffic controller informed pilots about this mistake and demanded to stop further coming down, but was ignored. When visibility is poor, only pilots have the authority to decide: dispatchers can only recommend. This is from interview with chief Russian official investigating the accident, after hearing records of communication with pilots from black box.

  11. This is from Der Spiegel:
    “Many on the German side felt their prejudices had been confirmed. To them, the divisive twins at the head of the Polish state confirmed what many Germans already thought to be true — that the Poles, as a people, were uptight, backward nationalists quick to collapse into fits of historical pathos.”
    It seems, many Russians feel just the same about Poles. And I can’t blame them for it, even if I do not share these sentiments. And to Russians, as a people, this description from Der Spiegel fits just as well.

  12. vaderleun:
    as I understood from online comments so far, not so much “bad pilot”, as “pilot under pressure from President of his country”: it is reported (based on don’t know what), that pilot was given a personal order by Kaczynski, repeated after each unsuccessful attempts to land (4).

    Don’t know if I would put a blame so certain so soon.

  13. Tayana, et al: I agree that as more facts have come out this is highly likely to have been a combination of poor judgment and bad weather. But I also agree that conspiracy theories will grow and fester.

    Also, by using the word “irony” I meant nothing light. I said it was deeply ironic, and what I meant by the word is more akin to cosmic irony.

  14. I would recommend to everyone that they be careful on what they decided to call facts.

    I’m not saying it was an assassination, I’m just saying I’m not terribly interested in what the Russians claim actually happened. I’ll need a lot more than there word before I put my tin-hat back in the closet.

  15. Tatyana,

    Die Welt reported that in 2008, a pilot flying Kaczynski ignored his orders to land as planned and diverted the plane to another airport. Kaczynski later charged him with failing to follow orders. I’m pretty sure that such an incident would affect subsequent decisions of the pilots. I’m with you on withholding judgement till the facts are in.

  16. Well it doesn’t look like anything but bad judgment leading to a calamity. But don’t underestimate Putin’s ability to capitalize on what, to him, must seem like the the sheerest, astounding good luck.

  17. And it won’t raise an eyebrow of skepticism from The Bamma and his keepers. Hey, Your Majesty, how about IF the Poles are encouraged to ask us to aid with the investigation…You know, before it’s all whisked away?? Naw, you wouldn’t want to irritate your KGB buddy, now, would’ja?

    *Mao, no dummy, took a special train back to China after receiving months of ‘tutoring’ in Moscow from Stalin, Beria & Comrades in 1949. No flying for The Chairman over Soviet territory.*

  18. Based on all I’ve read, I’m assuming it was a genuine accident until I see evidence to the contrary. But even so, it will be interesting to see what happens next. There’s always an element of fate and chance in history. Seemingly mundane, random events can radically alter its course.

    If the reports of Kaczynski ordering pilots to land regardless of conditions are true, then he was a fool. Any reasonable, intelligent President would know that the pilot is in command of the plane.

  19. I read Eddie Rickenbacker’s autobiography many years ago. He was America’s top World War I ace who later went on to become the president of Eastern Airlines. When in that role, he was critically injured in a plane crash in the 1930s. Afterwards, he instituted a policy limiting the number of Eastern’s top executives who could fly on the same plane.

    I don’t have a source, but I have heard of a similar story from the 1960s. A top NASA official was on a commercial flight and noticed the large number of NASA people on board. He thought, “If this plane goes down it will set the program back by six months.”

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
    –George Santayana

  20. This may be the first time in the history of Neo-Neocon that Capn Eddie Ricketyback and Eddie Rickenbacker have appeared in the same thread.

  21. “This may be the first time in the history of Neo-Neocon that Capn Eddie Ricketyback and Eddie Rickenbacker have appeared in the same thread.”

    Yeah, and since I know Capn Eddie Ricketyback, I am saying, “Amen,” to his comment. If the Polish President ordered the pilot to land no matter what, he knew not what he was asking.

    Deepest condolences to the Polish people.

  22. I would not trust Putin any further than I could throw him. He may not be relatively “powerful” right now, but he intends to be powerful in the future.

    Everyone should be aware that the preferred method of making strong political statements in the USSR was to permanently remove politicians (or people) who opposed or challenged party authority or personal power in some way was to engineer a plane crash and blame the event on weather or other factors.

    This method has been used in our own country, especially before an impending election where the numbers are not favorable for the party desiring more power. (e.g. Wellstone.)

  23. Stories abound of tragedies caused by executives in the corporate world ordering pilots to land in conditions outside the capabilities of their equipment and crews. The pilots involved were between the proverbial rock & hard place, since a refusal to land might cost you your job while obeying an order to land might cost you your life. Like Jimmy J., I was an airline pilot, and there was never any question as to who would make the decision to land or divert, it was the pilot in command. One among many reasons airline flying has a much better safety record than corporate aircraft. If the reports are true that the pilot was ordered by the Polish president to land in unsuitable conditions I hope it will be a lesson for future politicians and pilots.

    Since rickl has noticed that a fellow whose name is similar to mine has popped up in this thread,
    here’s an interesting video in which he appears. The star is one Arthur Godfrey, flying an Eastern flight in a Lockheed Constellation back in 1953, and will give anyone who’s interested a good idea of what goes on during a commercial flight. Needless to say, the equipment is much more advanced now, but it may be historically interesting. I have my own opinion of an airline allowing a “celebrity” to fly one of their flights, but that is for another day. I doubt very seriously if there were any passengers aboard, and suspect the flight was conducted solely for publicity. Although I’m somewhere between ancient and decrepit, 1953 was a bit before my time, so maybe they did things differently back then.

    BTW, Godfrey was probably the most unpopular radio/TV star who ever lived and I heard that when he died NObody went to his funeral!

  24. Capn Eddie & J.J.:

    Thanks for your comments. This is what I really love about blogs. No matter what the topic, someone who has actual real-life firsthand experience is bound to chime in, and enlighten the rest of us with their own personal knowledge in their field. That is truly a gift.

  25. Pingback:The Disaster in Poland | Little Miss Attila

  26. Kaczinsky had reputation of stubborn and reckless man even among Poles, and this must tell you something. I recommend to wait until we see signatures of Polish experts under joint commision protocol before jumping to conclusions and assign the blame. Opposition in Poland now is very angry and demands to know why the whole leadership of the country was allowed to fly on a single plane: unusial and reckless decision.

  27. From Financial Times obituary:
    “In 2008, he travelled to Tbilisi, the embattled capital of Georgia which was then fighting Russia, in order to demonstrate his support for Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia’s president. During that flight the pilot refused to land in Georgia for safety reasons, and, despite entreaties from the president, instead landed in neighbouring Azerbaijan.”
    The pilot was fired.

  28. Polish and Georgian nationalists, by the words of US diplomat working with them, “are all Charge of the Light Brigade men”. A Greek tragedy spirit is felt here: the triad arrogance – hubris – Nemesis is the principal mover of the plot.

  29. Sergey,

    The triad is also fed by those on the outside who want the simplicity of black and white distinctions in a confusing world. We tend to overlook failings in our guys and deny any goodness to the other side. This doesn’t offer much incentive for self examination or moderating of virtues that are on their way to becoming sins.

  30. Look who is talking about “arrogance” – a Russian nationalist, supporter of recent Russian aggression against Georgia – and of “cleansing” Moscow from Georgian residents. Look who’s calling all Poles as a people, were uptight, backward nationalists quick to collapse into fits of historical pathos”.

    He’s referring to Spiegel, or unidentified “US diplomat”(wihtout links), but the choice of quotes is his own. That’s who he is.

    And he is welcome here.

    Oh well.

  31. Tatyana,

    That Spiegel quote does describe the attitude of many Germans toward the Polish and for a variety of reasons. First, they don’t understand the mistrust and fear that once again Poland will be sold out. Second, they believe so wholeheartedly that a bureaucratic EU is the answer to all problems that they can’t endure any skepticism on that front. Third, Germany has become so postreligious that it cannot stand (more) Cathloic Poland not jumping immediately onto the abortion bandwaggon. Fourth, many Germans are convinced that they, and only they, have learned the lessons of WWII, primarily that war is bad and must be avoided at all costs. Any country that speaks of national pride is immediately suspect. There were snide remarks about people flying the Stars and Stripe right after 9/11; there were discussions before the soccer World Cup about the appropriateness of Germans hanging flags out their car windows to show support of the German team. Such exquisite sensitivity does lead one to look down on normal expressions of patriotism. Finally, many feel that German crimes have caused the world to lose sight of German sufferings. This has been a big topic involving Poland and German attempts to remember the fate of displaced persons.

    These factors are not spread equally among political groups. The human rights secularists are big on abortion and no flags, while more conservative Catholics, especially in Bavaria, take up the displaced persons banner. In sum, there is an undertone of condescension. The Kaczynski brothers have not been well liked in Germany.

    As to Russian attitudes toward Poland, I don’t know much, but I suspect that is less formed by the masochistic guilt feelings involved in Germany’s attitudes.

  32. *expat: thank you for overview of the dynamics of German opinion on Poles; I read several blogs written by Russian- and English-speaking German residents (some are citizen), and I’m glad to see my perception confirmed. Well, I also read books, too…post-war literature, from Boll (sorry, no umlaut)l to Grass to Sebald (and recent discovery – Rosendorfer), so I have a general picture.

    My concern was not with Speigel and Germans altogether, though – if they are going to extreme, theirs not an offensive extreme. The case with nationalistic Russians is the opposite. In the years Putin is in power, the “new nationalists” are risen – or rather, old imperialists in new clothes. Their attitude is the opposite to that of Germans. Russian nationalists breath contempt to all peoples ever “conquered” by Russian empire – from aboriginal peoples of the North to ex-compatriots in Soviet Union. They especially hate pro-Western republics who liberated themselves from Soviet jackboot: Ukrainians, 3 Baltic countries and Georgians. They despise ex-Soviet Asian population, too; they use the labor and kick the living light out of Tadjiks, Azeri and Turkmen. During the Russian aggression against Georgia there were much publicized “purges” of people with Georgian surnames from Moscow – some of them Russian citizen in 3rd generation. Just now, after the explosions in Moscow metro, my Armenian friends who live in Moscow were afraid to leave their homes – in fear of beatings by nationalistic gangs on the streets -while milita looked the other way. Russian society is deeply racist and contemptuous to “the Other”. There are degrees of hatred, of course, but it is still a hatred – primitive and ugly, no matter in what garments it wraps itself.
    And it’s even uglier when expressed by the educated, the ones skillful in verbal equilibristcs.

    To speak of supposed universal flaws of Poles as people at the time of their national tragedy, when whole country is struck by grief is not just distasteful, it shows who’s really a bully.

  33. It would be easy to take a plane down and make it look like an accident. It’s been done before; April 3rd 1996 an Air Force plane carrying Commerce Secretary Ron Brown and 34 others crashed into a mountain side in Croatia. How was it done? They simply moved the beacon from its normal position at the runway to a mountainside where a truck mounted beacon was switched on when the runway beacon was switched off. The Croatian who was in control of the beacon and would’ve been the one who shut the runway beacon off, straight away “committed suicide”. Of course this negated any questioning of his actions that day. To bring the plane carrying the Polish President and the head of Poland’s’ Central Bank down short of the runway and make it appear as it were Pilot error, all one would have to do is move the runway beacon from its normal position, to a position in the forest far short of the runway. Even on a clear day the plane would follow the beacon and the Pilots might not react quickly enough to avoid a crash; however, on a fog shrouded day such as the one the plane came down on it would be a sure thing.

  34. The corporation I worked for had a policy limiting the number of high ranking executives who could be on one flight. They were also paranoid about potential kidnappings, or worse, and limited how many of the highest ranking execs could appear at public events.

    So, I’m amazed the Polish government allowed so many high ranking officials on one flight.

  35. Le Trebuchet: There were NO beacons in that airfield. It is a military airfield, usually used only in fair weather, and all landing here can be done only manually, by visual control of the pilot. The required distance of vision here is 1000 m, and at the time of catastrophe it was just 400 m.

  36. Traffic controller at airfield observed all maneuvres at radar screen and tried to correct and guide the pilot, but his advice was ignored. All communications between land services and the crew were recorded, and this information is from airfield record. But it also recorded in black boxes of the plane, which are sealed and will be opened only in presence of Polish experts when they arrive.

  37. Last night German TV showed pictures of Russian citizens placing flowers at the Polish Embassy in Moscow. WSJ today has an article about the Polish people appreciating the Russian response. The also reported that the Russian TV film about Katyn, which was aired earlier on a minor channel was shown again on Sunday in prime time. Perhaps this horrible event can break down some of the prejudices fed by almost a century of propaganda and repression. I pray that this happens.

  38. This was not Russian TV film: It was film of Anjey Waida, faimous Polish film director. Andjey also addressed Russian audience live before film demonstration.

  39. *expat: I doubt there is a Russian-shot film about Katyn, there will be none for a long time.
    In a country where national poll on best Russian leaders in history placed Stalin in the third place, where the capital will be decorated in Stalin’s portraits for Victory Day – I don’t think the film like this has a chance to appear.
    10 years ago – I would believe it.

    As to Russians bringing flowers, etc – of course. Those are not the same Russians who call Poles disparaging names.

  40. Yury Luzhkov, Moscow mayor, is known for eccentric projects. But nobody takes him seriously: in politics he is just a clown.

  41. When last time you watched Russian television, Tatyana? Last two month there were demonstrated dozens of films, which, by your opinion, must have had zero chance to appear. But they appeared, in central channels with multi-million audience and mostly in prime time. May be, this is a reflection of power struggle in Kremlin; I can only speculate. Some were made 10 years ago and were never demonstrated before.

  42. You may believe me or not, but I have not seen so aggressive and focused anti-Stalinist propaganda campaign in media, including central television, since 1989. What does it mean in terms of changing political course, I can only guess.

  43. I don’t converse with FSB agents.

    However, I have to admit: this bit, “anti-Stalinist propaganda campaign in media”, did made me laugh.

    The mask slips every once in a while, eh?

  44. I don’t converse with FSB agents.

    However, I have to admit: this bit, “anti-Stalinist propaganda campaign in media”, did made me laugh.

    The mask slips every once in a while, eh?

  45. By the way, about “official sources” vs. “gossip”.

    I gave link to an article in RIA Novosti (Russian information agency) dated April 7th, I quote:

    “Moscow Mayor Yury Luzhkov said he still intends to decorate the capital with Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin’s portraits during the celebrations of victory over Nazi Germany in World War Two despite a clear signal from the Kremlin, the Russian Izvestia daily reported on Wednesday.”

    The “S” character above called it gossip and countered with link to… RIA Novosti (SAME SOURCE I gave), only dated March 23. The rest of the article is repostedin the later article I linked to.

    Tz-tz-tz. How sloppy.

  46. How hard would it be on final approach, as they come over the trees, to put a bullet in an engine?

    THATS how easy it is to take advantage of a situation.

    and do not forget that they were all going to a very embarassing thing for super proud soviet Russians. the memory of the Katyn massacre.

    Black boxes confirm (so they say) that the Tupolev Tu-154 was sound

    we have only pilot error or sabotage and no way to know since where it happened we seldom know things for decades if ever.

    what we do know is that it resulted in a complete decapitation of the polish state, and military.

    and that it facilitates the replacement of those people and a percentage of them being on the payroll or more favorable to russia rather than the US.

    as i mention above they were on the way to mark the events that happened years ago as the russians murdered 22,000 people in the katyn forest and tried to place the blame on the nazis. (Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 admitted the facts).

    “I am very suspicious. You talk to a lot of people coming here today, they will tell you the same thing. You can’t trust the Russians. Polish people hate the Russians. They suppressed us for over 200 years. There isn’t a person in Poland who hasn’t had a victim in their family of Russian suppression.” Witold Szalankiewicz

    to the reporters question of why do it.

    “To destroy the elite of the country that believes in the democracy we’ve become. Here was a way to get everybody in one place at once. It’s interesting that a plane full of 200 journalists landed with no problem shortly before the plane crash.

    “The Russians hate us. Poland stands up to Russia. They can’t control us anymore. Russia was furious with Poland when it became the only European country to take in Chechen refugees. Poland blocks Russian EU proposals. Russia was furious when Poland joined NATO in 1999.

    “No one knows the mind of Russians like the Polish people. Did you know that Putin’s grandfather was once Stalin’s chef? Putin himself was head of the KGB branch in East Germany.” Witold Szalankiewicz

    “I will not speculate. But, I knew those pilots personally. They were very experienced and qualified.” Zenon Kosiniak-Kamysz (Poland ambassador to Canada)

    while this was going on, US personel were installing missiles in morad near the baltic sea (Kaliningrad)

    – Gen. Bronislaw Kwiatkowski (Commander Operations)
    – Gen. Andrew Blasik (Air Force Commander in Chief)
    – Gen. Tadeusz Buk (Commander of Land Forces)
    – Gen. Wojciech Potasinski (Commander of Special Forces)
    – Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta (Commander in Chief of the Polish Navy)
    – Gen. Casimir Gilarski (Commander, Training)

    Navy, Army, Special Forces, Operations, and the Air Force…

    all gone…

    Given just indonesian history, would be enough. but you also have the attempted piosoning of a state head with dioxin too recently.

    its also interesting to note that Zapad 2009 drill, simulated a nuclear strike and take over of Poland.

    also at the same time elsewhere.
    Tu-95 Bear bombers Tu-160 Blackjack bombers had been invading Canadian space, and other space.

    [they have been running at the UK a lot]

    and even time magazine is talking how putin orchestrated the Kaz coupe

  47. These questions are not in the competence of Luzhkov: there is the organization commitee, led by president Medvedev, and this commitee already announced its decision. Luzhkov is not even a member of this commitee, his opinion is just a private opinion. As I already mentioned, nobody takes his views and declarations seriously.

  48. “The Russians hate us.” Generally true. Russian-Poland relations hardly could be described other way, than mutial hatred and deep suspiction. The less reason there is to believe speculations motivated by deep-ingrained hatred.

  49. I doubt very much that any kind of foul play was involved here.

    and

    it is indeed hard not to be suspicious about this. My head tells me it is what it is, a tragic accident of uncany coincidence given the place and the occasion. But my heart still harbors that niggling suspicion…..it almost seems too damn coincidental in many respects.

    and the reason is clear if you know history a lot.

    Nikolay Khokhlov was a defector, he sat down and had a cup of coffee at a reception of sorts, they treated him for thallium, but he didnt respond.

    The thallium had been subjected to atomic radiation so that the metal would slowly disintegrate in the system, giving symptoms as common as gastritis as a patient slowly died of radiation poisoning. By that time, the thallium would have disintegrated and left no trace even for an autopsy.

    Khattab was poisoned in 2004

    Afghan leader Hafizullah Amin in December 1979 was also poisoned.

    and here is one of the more important ones for students of history who want to assume things happen naturally. see Lev Rebet

    Anti Soviet writer Lev Rebet was thought to have died from a heart attack in October 1957. (as also a bunch of others… No foul play was suspected).

    years later the assasin defected and showed how a mist developed by Kamera caused the heart attack. it was in a tube with a gas charge and you basically tapped the person, when they turned you sprayed them in the face, their natural gasp would pull it in, they die of a heart attack.

    Georgi Markov in 1978 was killed by a very tiny BB that had a hole drilled in it, and the hole filled with ricin. Oleg Kalugin (defected kgb general added to our information)

    Georgy Okolovich was done in by a poison bullet

    Yushchenko, leader of a country with a similar relationship had his life nearly snuffed out by ingesting dioxin (horribly disfiguring him).

    along with EVERY one of these actions was also a huge disinformation campaign where everyone and their cousins had every possible OTHER reason to make the event sound reasonable.

    in the case of this plane crash it will be to the pilot error, or not listening, or something. and in the case of dioxin, it was bad sushi (how many world wide had sushi like that?), and on and on. even when they had the anthrax accident 20 years after sayign they stopped the whole thing, they had active measures to put AIDs creation on american labs.

    GRU alone spent more than $1 billion for propaganda and peace movements against Vietnam War

    According to Oleg Kalugin, “the Soviet intelligence was really unparalleled. … The KGB programs — which would run all sorts of congresses, peace congresses, youth congresses, festivals, women’s movements, trade union movements, campaigns against U.S. missiles in Europe, campaigns against neutron weapons, allegations that AIDS … was invented by the CIA … all sorts of forgeries and faked material — [were] targeted at politicians, the academic community, at the public at large.”

    According to Sergei Tretyakov, “The KGB was responsible for creating the entire nuclear winter story to stop the Pershing missiles.”[4] Tretyakov says that from 1979 the KGB wanted to prevent the United States from deploying the missiles in Western Europe and that, directed by Yuri Andropov, they used the Soviet Peace Committee, a government organization, to organize and finance demonstrations in Europe against US bases.[4][5][6] He claims that misinformation based on a faked “doomsday report” by the Soviet Academy of Sciences about the effect of nuclear war on climate was distributed to peace groups, the environmental movement and the journal Ambio,[4] which carried a key article on the topic in 1982

    In “Trust Operation” (1921—1926), the State Political Directorate (OGPU) set up a fake anti-Bolshevik underground organization, “Monarchist Union of Central Russia”. The main success of this operation was luring Boris Savinkov and Sidney Reilly into the Soviet Union, where they were arrested and executed.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    During Basmachi Revolt in Central Asia, special military detachments were masqueraded as Basmachi forces and received support from British and Turkish intelligence services. Operations of these detachments facilitated collapse of Basmachi movement and led to assassination of Enver Pasha[15]

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Following the World War II, various partisan organisations in the Baltic States, Poland and Western Ukraine (including some previous collaborators of Germany) fought for independence of their countries against the Soviet forces. Many NKVD agents were sent to join and penetrate the independence movements. Many puppet rebel forces were created by the NKVD and permitted to attack local Soviet authorities to gain credibility and exfiltrate senior NKVD agents to the West.[15]

    and so they sacrifice their own people to build up a fake reality that is so believable that the enemy gets suckered.

    [edited for length by n-n]

  50. I don’t converse with stupid, hysterical women. But in Russian the term “propaganda campaign” has no negative connotations, it is fairly neutral. We just call a spade spade.

  51. The less reason there is to believe speculations motivated by deep-ingrained hatred.

    you mean in hatfield and mccoy territory if a man has 47 bullets in them, and it looks to favor one family heavily, we should look for the on armed gun man?

    MORE reason… not less…

    the more MOTIVE

    to tell us an inversion of that for situational convenience isnt very honest, is it?

  52. Popular opinion is one thing, government policy is quite another. It is perfectly clear for me that Putin and Medvedev got to great length to improve relations between Russia and Poland, including demonstration of Waida’s film “Katyn” in prime time BEFORE the catastrophe. A week before there was a Russian documentary on TV on the same topic, and a detailed coverage of Katyn memorial opening, with Putin and Polish delegation present (also before the catastrophe). I have enough experience to understand in which direction Kremlin tries to shift public opinion. And there is plenty of evidence how traffic controllers tried to redirect the plane to another airfield and prevent suicidal maneuvres of the Polish crew.

  53. A leading Russian federal judge has been shot dead as he was leaving his apartment building in central Moscow, court officials have said. // Eduard Chuvashov was leaving for work on Monday morning when he was shot by an unknown gunman who fled the scene. // The judge is reported to have died instantly after being hit in the head and chest.

    the rest of the article is mostly trying to blame factions in Moscow. but again, their biggest problem is not whats going on, but the fact that their own actions poison everything, even if they are not doing that.

    and that their best solution of equally spreading the crap all over, to enemies and making everyone seem the same, just makes it crappy for everyone. including them. as the people they smear eventually become what they are smeared with just to have the fairness of payment for services received, rather than payment for things never done.

    “An unidentified person shot Mr Chuvashov in the entrance to an apartment block and then fled,”

    problem is that that method is as signature as a man in a trunk with no shoes.

    that is, they are attacked at their door, or near the home, and they get hit in the head and chest. after you read a few dozen, you start to realzie taht they are using tehs same method, and its being used against one side.

    Mrs Politkovskaya was murdered the same way, in the doorway.

    The murder fired point-blank three times: two times deadly on her heart and the third time on her shoulder. The fourth shot, made at head of the already dead woman, was a control one.

    one to the body to incapacitate, one to the head to finish it…

    Yevgeny Panteleimonov was also murdered in his doorway. (the perpitrators: head of the FD-Kredit Bank, Dmitry Rybolovlev, and others),

    [the whole thing leads to some bizarro stuff as to CIA compromised resorts international… James Crosby, founded Intertel, an internationally-known security company (which listed among its clients billionaire recluse Howard Hughes, the Shah of Iran and Nicaraguan dictator Anastasio Somoza). heck there were even ties to the mob, and politicos.

    wierd weird weierder

    Natalya Estemirova Four men forced Estemirova, 50, into a white Lada sedan in Grozny, the capital of Chechnya, as she was leaving her apartment for work, Reuters reported. Witnesses said the journalist shouted that she was being kidnapped as the car sped from the scene, according to press reports. Later the same day, her body was found in the neighboring region of Ingushetia, according to international news reports. She was shot in the head and the chest; no belongings were reported missing.

    Anastasiya Baburova
    An assailant wearing a ski mask shot Baburova, 25, a freelance correspondent for the independent newspaper Novaya Gazeta, at around 3 p.m. on a downtown street within walking distance of the Kremlin.

    The assailant shot Markelov in the back of the head with a pistol fitted with a silencer, the independent business daily Kommersant reported, citing sources in the Prosecutor General’s office. Baburova apparently tried to stop the killer, who walked past her after shooting Markelov; the man then shot her in the head, Kommersant reported, citing unnamed witnesses. Markelov, 34, died immediately; Baburova died several hours later in a Moscow hospital, where she had undergone surgery, the independent news Web site Lenta reported.
    Telman (Abdulla) Alishayev

    Two unidentified assassins killed Alishayev, host of the program “Peace to Your Home,” which was broadcast by TV-Chirkei in Makhachkala, the regional capital of the southern Russian republic of Dagestan. The assailants shot Alishayev as he waited at a traffic signal while driving home from a local mosque about 8 p.m., local press reports said. He sustained head and shoulder wounds and died in a hospital the next morning, the news agency Interfax reported.

    Vladislav Listyev, Russian Public Television (OTR)
    March 1, 1995, in Moscow, Russia // Rudnev, a freelance journalist who worked in Kaluga, a district outside of Moscow, was found on February 13 in the hallway of his apartment building with a serious skull injury.

    Murder, Russian-Style: Political Assassination
    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1851854,00.html

    Russia, Disgraced
    Lawlessness and impunity form the context for the latest contract-style murder of a human rights activist.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/17/AR2009071703378.html

    Russia’s Killing Ways
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/13/AR2006121301909.html

    you can dig and dig and find endless amounts of material covering the things done. and they have never stopped, since day one, to today.

    their idea that it was foolish to have morals as that would put solutions out of reach, ended up never learning in their naivette, that the costs of such, were far greater and lasted far longer than other solutions.

    how long will they suffer what they did to trotsky?

    as long as they exist with anyone ruling having relationship to the past.

  54. What is not clear from your diatribe, Art, is who are “they”. Mafia thugs? Nazi thugs? Government agents? Russian people in general? The judge recently killed was persecuting Nazi murderers, and gave them long prison terms. Recently he recieved death treats from ultra-nationalists, but refused to accept bodyguards (he was entiteled to have them). Murder of bankers or enterpreneurs was usually contracted by their competitors. All of the cases you linked were investigated, very publicly, most of them solved, and perpetuators jailed. In many aspects, the situation is like that in Southern Italy, where lots of heroic judges payed by their lives for performing their duties. What does political assassination of Trotzki has to do with it? Both political and criminal terror in Russia began at least half a century before this event. Ever heard about Raskolnikov? Or “Narodnaya Volya”?

  55. ‘Russia engineered air crash that killed President Kaczynski,’ claims Polish MP

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265482/Leck-Kaczynski-Russia-engineered-plane-crash-claims-Polish-MP.html

    The Russian government prevented the Polish president’s plane from landing four times to divert him from a ceremony to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, according to an MP.

    that is they may have thought that the air port was preventing them from landing so that they could not attend the Katyn memorial.

    ‘One version of events says that the plane approached the airport four times, because every time the Russians refused it permission to land – they wanted to send the plane with the president to an airport in Moscow or Minsk,’ Mr Gorski claimed in an interview published in the newspaper Nasz Dziennik.

    ‘They came up with some dubious reasons: that there was fog over the airport, and that the navigation system didn’t work as it was under renovation, and that airport had a short landing strip.’

    so now the impression we get is a bit different. that they were throwing excuses to see which one stuck.

    [there was a journalists plane to, and such a thing would have created a situation where 200 journalists arrived at the memorial, and the polish president would have been a no show]

    Because it was a civilian flight, they did not have the authority to order them to another airport, he said.

    ah… so what they are saying is that if you want to know whats going on at a military base in Russia, forget using a military plane. just fly in on a civilian plane and the military is completely helpless as to who lands on their base.

    anyone think that is valid?

    seems that prior history has affected everyone in weird ways. after all, if it was not for Russians behavior over Katyn, which is something they did, and did voluntarily… (and completely beats the crap they claim against the US, and its not even a lone incident, its one of thousands to millions)

    so the leaderships ability to judge the motives of the officers under GRU control at a russian military airstrip, was affected. the fact that russia has always played games, also affected judgments.

    if they were coming into Chicago ohare to mark the date of some negative in american history, they would not be trying to figure out if the control tower was telling the truth or not.

    THAT’S the problem when your landing in a country whose last 100 years of action was based on mind games, lies, and manipulations. they could be completely honest, but like the boy who cries wolf, who can tell?

    their behavior has removed a critical part of common transaction. that their behavior world wide and especially to their near neighbors has made a situation where trusting them is the LAST thing you want to do, given that trust is what they depend on in all their games!

    there is no reason to answer sergey, as from the peoples point of view, it doesnt matter.

    like in my cousin vinney, the quote applies. when the tiny deer puts its head down to take a drink, and BLAM a hunter blows off its head, do you really think that the deer cares what clothes your wearing?

    well, to the people assasinated, and the whole thing, does it really matter who was hired, or who decided to do that kind of thing? not at all. and the history of the country frmo Lenin telling Dzerzhinsky to open up the prisons, has been one of the top being nothing but different factions of Russian thugs.

    nazi thugs and mafia thugs only exist bcause kgb/fsb/gru thugs are not completely in control enough to make them disappear. but if they were, there would still be kgb/fsb/gru thugs.

    the point being, is that whether strong and the only thugs around, or weaker and there is a cadre, the one thing you can be sure about, is that there, thugs are in control

    which makes the russian people in the list a red herring.

    from another source:
    President Kaczynski admitted, after suffering a scare on a Tupolev 154 Soviet-designed plane in 2008, “Any flight brings with it a certain risk, but a very serious risk attaches to the responsibilities of a president, because it is necessary to fly constantly.” And so, in December of 2009, Kaczynski had Russia’s Aviakor aviation maintenance company fully overhaul the plane, deeming the aircraft “airworthy.”

    so there was previous scares…
    the event isnt just a one off.

    Seventy years ago, after the Soviets denied involvement for the Katyn bloodbath and blamed the Nazis for the slaughter, then-Prime Minister Wladyslaw Sikorski “called for an independent investigation” into the massacre. Four months later, Sikorski and sixteen others suffered an untimely end, perishing in a plane crash in Gibraltar. Another unfortunate coincidence.
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2010/04/polish_air_disaster

  56. Add me to the ‘suspicious’ list. That the stories keep changing (first the beacon is old, then there never was one, then it was gone for repairs?) and how those folks tend to roll…yeah, stinks too much to be trusting.

    Oh, and anti Stalin stuff– shouldn’t that be about as controversial as anti-Hitler? Not as flashy, but much higher body count, and had that whole psychotic Xanatos thing going on.

  57. To me, there’s very little doubt it was an assassination. I think everyone here’s in denial. The odds of an aircraft accident, in itself, are slim. The odds of an aircraft accident with an entire government, including military leaders, financial executives–even candidates for the upcoming elections–are so slim as to be nonexistent.

    Interesting eyewitness accounts at Russian news outlet, RIA Novosti. Points: 1) No fog, 2) No multiple passes at the airport, 3) Strange “slapping” sound coming from plane before crash.

    Putin thinks nothing of murdering his political opposition and, in fact, Russia was behind last week’s bloody coup in Kyrgyzstan.

  58. to Vanderleun;
    I want compare you to to your opinion. One guy with brilant eyes who doesn’t see anything, with no hearing problem who doesn’t hear anything, and with the healthy brain but foggy understanding.
    3 mistakes in one conclusion.

  59. Pingback:Sadness and Anger « Musings from the Den Mother

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