May 4th, 2010

Times Square terror suspect in custody

And surprise surprise, he’s a naturalized American citizen of Pakistani descent, arrested at JFK Airport while trying to flee to Dubai.

No doubt, however, he’s also a right-wing Tea Partying extremist who’s against the health care bill. And of course he’s a lone wolf, too.

McCain has come out against Mirandizing suspect Shahzad. But this case is distinguished by the fact that the suspected bomber is a US citizen, which means that he is entitled to Miranda warnings (and probably has already received them). This advantage is one of the many reasons terrorists are eager to recruit citizens rather than foreign nationals for operations in this country.

Those who argue that this arrest is a vindication for the law enforcement approach to terrorism are confusing apples with oranges. Of course that system will often—and rightly—be involved in the apprehension of a terrorist who is in this country. Those who argue (as I have) that the law enforcement approach is not a good way to deal with terrorism in general are talking especially about a later part of the process, the criminal trial and sentencing. It is especially inappropriate for the trial of foreign nationals picked up outside this country as well as certain selected terrorists in this country. The arguments against using this system for such terrorists have to do, among other things, with the rules of discovery in our criminal justice system and the advantage it gives terrorists in finding out what we know and how we know it.

[ADDENDUM: Turns out that the investigation wasn’t quite the well-oiled machine we’d like to see, although in the end they got their man. But Shahzad came close to getting away:

Shahzad, who had been the subject of a huge manhunt, almost made it out of the country on a Emirates flight to Dubai, with a planned connection onward to Pakistan, according to officials.

“He appeared real close to getting away,” one federal official said. “The plane was buttoned up. Backed away from the jetway.”

Authorities said that despite the manhunt, his passport had not been flagged and he was able to buy a ticket with cash and clear airport security.

Wow.

(Hat tip: DrewM at Ace’s.)]

[ADDENDUM II: This is more reassuring, although it’s difficult to tell what’s true at this point:

This is NOT what they were saying on Fox in the early hours this morning. An LEO representative said they were behind him all the way and had agents on the plane.

They said they allowed him to board on purpose so as to see if he had accomplices on board as well.

They said there was never any danger of the plane leaving or him getting away.]

63 Responses to “Times Square terror suspect in custody”

  1. Stark Says:

    It is a shame that the media and our politicians do not have the intestinal fortitude to call him an Islamofascist considering that it is reported that the Taliban announced that they were responsible. This just makes no sense.

  2. ahem Says:

    One problem with treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue is that it encourages home-grown terrorism because it is easier to beat our liberal laws than to stand trial in a court marshall. Why not give it a shot, if you stand a good chance of getting off on a technicality? THis approach only makes matters worse, as we are soon to discover.

  3. Anonymous Says:

    “court martial”.

  4. will Says:

    Just heard the recording of Bloomberg telling Katie Chouric that if he had to guess he would say that this incident had been done by someone “who opposed Obamacare”. Extremely irresponsible on his part. I then thought, that a organized, publicized boycott of New York would be a great thing. Every year, thousands and thousands of tourists come to see N.Y. “People from Ohio” they are derisively referred to by smug journo’s in the know. Depsite this, and the rude treatment they are subjected to, the shitty hotels they patronize, they continue to come. Why?, the place is not safe, it’s dirty and dangerous, and the Mayor has put his true feelings on the table; “Don’t support Obama, you’re a terrorist”. Boycott New York, spend your vacation dollars in someplace like Arizona, where they can use the revenue. Organized boycotts are underway against Arizona, and only because they want the laws enforced.

  5. Artfldgr Says:

    He had his house forclosed..
    and his wife was back in pakistan
    didnt like obama care

    basically, due to the games of libs on behalf of those that couldn’t afford the property they were buying, a reasonable good chance of the American dream collapsed, and that made him open to ‘other ideas’.

    now, next time you look at an image of a prison yard, know that there are only three ways to go in there, and they all are about ‘other ideas’.

    the point is how do you manufacture the kinds of people you need? its a combination of social engineering, and then waiting with a net to catch them, and move them to a new position.

    overextending the validity of their dreams, means you can catch them on the way down.

    feminism uses it, race groups use it, they all do. its a process where your BAD advice, causes them to run to you for help.

    its a classic… you set em up to fail, then be there to be their confidant. tell em all they can have everything, and its easy, and so on… then catch the women, catch the nationalities, catch the gay, etc.

    its a way of positioning minds…
    by changing the minds positions

  6. Bob from Virginia Says:

    Factoid, a court martial is a military court for military personnel. Ahem, you are thinking of a military tribunal, a military court set up to try non-US military personnel for criminal behavior of some sort.

    BTW I happen to love NYC, the people I found were extraordinarily friendly and kind once the rough exterior manner is overlooked, and the city is fascinating, an endless series of sensations. I going to miss it once the Iranians sail a nuke into its harbor. Which is another reason why everyone should visit it and soon.

  7. Artfldgr Says:

    DUmmies SURE Times Square Bomber a Teabagger!
    dummiefunnies.blogspot.com/2010/05/dummies-sure-times-square-bomber.html

  8. Tatyana Says:

    Bob, thank you for this eulogy.

    Russians have a saying”don’t be in a hurry to bury us”.
    (= “rumors of our death are greatly exaggerated”)

    Signed: one of many helpful and hospitable new-yorkers.

  9. Curtis Says:

    “As Americans and as a nation, we will not be terrorized. We will not cower in fear. We will not be intimidated,” Obama said.

    Note the lack of the villian being mentioned in this statement.

    Obama has more meaningfully communicated that America will not fear Israel, but will respect Iran; will not define islam as terror and discrimination, but will define Conservatism as such; will strip the nation of its tools to combat islam, but will not remove (and will even increase) the tools to snoop on our own citizens.

    The future will soon declare this fact: Obama is a traitor. See:

    noisyroom.net/blog/2010/05/03/obama-file-102-america%E2%80%99s-little-lenin-joel-rogers-and-the-obama-movement/

  10. Sergey Says:

    It is quite possible to try terrorists in civil courts, if some procedural rules are changed so to prevent disclosure of classified information. Some sessions can be held behind closed doors, and participants must sign a document requiring them to keep secrets. This is routinely done in Russia when terrorists are tried.

  11. will Says:

    Glad you like the place Bob, I could never adjust, I guess. I too was helpful and hospitable when I lived there, but had to leave. Nearly ten years after 9/11 there is still no proper memorial to those who burned that day downtown. Yet our government continues to sit by idly and allow people from suspect locales to colonize large swaths of the city.

    And, if you’ve ever been there when something goes wrong, you’ll get the gist of what I’m saying. There are a thousand side stories to this one regarding the truck bomb. Who stroked out in the back of the ambulance stuck in traffic because of the incident?, who’s pocketbook got jacked on the A train because the train was stuck at 42nd Street for three hours? It goes on, and on. The reality of day-to-day there can be tough on you, particularly if you don’t support Obamacare.

  12. Sergey Says:

    Israeli news portal announced that 4 co-conspirators of Times Square bomber were arrested in Karachi.

  13. expat Says:

    Sergey,

    France has a similar system, and Andy McCarthy, who prosecuted the blind sheik, has advocated that we need special courts as well. The ACLU would raise hell if anyone seriously tried to set up such a sytem.

  14. Artfldgr Says:

    MSNBC host Contessa Brewer appeared on the liberal Stephanie Miller radio show on Tuesday and lamented the fact that the person arrested for the attempted Times Square bombing is a Pakistani American. She complained, “I get frustrated…There was part of me that was hoping this was not going to be anybody with ties to any kind of Islamic country.”

  15. Curtis Says:

    “participants must sign a document requiring them to keep secrets.”

    Attempting to silence with an oath and signature the pro-muslim-ACLU-Harvard educated-pull my pants down to make a point-scumbag attorneys who would represent the defendants would result in a sideshow mockery of justice replete with ancillary litigation, media led protest and a sympathetic Eric Holder justice department.

    Just what the terrorists want.

  16. Artfldgr Says:

    forget the title.. (its a kind of tin hat joke)

    gets lots of money for terrorist attack from “classified”
    and so on and so on…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kur36SWZhsA&NR=1&feature=fvwp

    this funding will take effect upon the first attack of classified, or the first large scale outbreak of classified, dependent upon which comes first

    civilian and military troops will be trained in containment of classified. including irradiated classified, and possibility classified, airborne classified, flesh eating classified and or all of the above.

  17. Artfldgr Says:

    correction.. onion span?

  18. Sergey Says:

    Need for special court arises in many cases not connected to terrorism. If defendants are underage, and their identity should not be disclosed, or in drug traffic investigation, when evidence is provided by informant or undercover cop. How do you treat such situations? Or when witneses agree to cooperate only on condition of secrecy?

  19. Artfldgr Says:

    MS-NBC anchor: I’m so bummed that Shahzad wasn’t a Tea Partier (video at link)

    she’s really unhappy that she couldn’t use the Times Square bombing attempt to prove Tea Party “bigotry.”
    hotair.com/archives/2010/05/04/ms-nbc-anchor-im-so-bummed-that-shahzad-wasnt-a-tea-partier/

    Brewer really wanted a way to smear conservatives, and now she’ll just have to wait a little longer:

    BREWER: I mean the thing is is that and I get frustrated and there was part of me that was hoping this was not going to be anybody with ties to any kind of Islamic country because there are a lot of people who want to use this terrorist intent to justify writing off people who believe in a certain way or come from certain countries or whose skin color is a certain way. I mean they use it as justification for really outdated bigotry.

    And so there was part of me was really hoping this would not be the case that here would be somebody who is not the defined. I mean he’s accused he’s arrested you know I don’t want to convict him before it’s time to do so. He’s the guy authorities say is involved. But that being said I mean we know even in recent history you have the Hutaree militia from Michigan who have plans to let’s face it create terror.

    That’s what they were planning to do and they were doing so from far different backgrounds then what this guy is coming from. So, the threat is not just coming from people who decide that America is the place to be and you know come here and want to become citizens. Obviously this guy did.

  20. Occam's Beard Says:

    The ACLU would raise hell if anyone seriously tried to set up such a sytem.

    The ACLU should be the first clients of such a system.

  21. Artfldgr Says:

    http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/Hutaree-Militia-May-Be-Released-A-Dangerous-Decision-3470

    The New York Times’ Nick Bunkley reported on Monday that Judge Victoria A. Roberts had ordered the nine members of the extremist militia be released on bond until their trial, stating “that prosecutors did not demonstrate that the defendants would pose a danger if released.” The Hutaree are accused of plotting to kill police officers as part of a plan to wage war against the government. Prosecutors had argued that bail should be denied because the group posed a severe danger to public safety.

  22. Curtis Says:

    Sergey: You cited relevant examples. Of course, we have a separate juvenile system with the concommitant rules of court and codes of procedure. With regards to protecting identities, we seal records and courtrooms . . .

    It’s not so much our system that couldn’t be trusted and modified to fit the situation. It’s our judges and defenders and justice department and president. All of them have access as officers of the court and, frankly, most of them are the enemy.

    Sure it could be done, but badly. That’s the ignominy of our culture.

  23. Memo to John McCain: SHUT THE HELL UP! | Political Byline Says:

    [...] The Moderate Voice, The Note, Firedoglake, The Corner on National …, Commentary, Washington Post, neo-neocon, The Confluence, Associated Press, Jules Crittenden, No More Mister Nice Blog, Washington Monthly, [...]

  24. Baklava Says:

    Lordy, interesting stuff.

    I wored 15 hours yesterday and didn’t get a chance to keep up with anything…

  25. Artfldgr Says:

    i hope the missing consonant is a k, not a h…

  26. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    He’s an American, so he gets his trial. Military tribunals and special courts for traitorous American citizens is a non-starter.

    The trial won’t be but should be quick.

    Since he’s Mirandized, by the time he makes a deal for whatever intelligence he might possess, it won’t be actionable.

    Therefore, the only value achievable from this is in the American public having the opportunity, to once again evaluate the Obama administration’s degree of seriousness and quality of thinking regarding Islamic terrorism.

    Will Obama and Holder charge him with treason? That is clearly the appropriate charge. If they don’t and their liberality will resist that, then it’s further proof that they lack the requisite mental fortitude to lead this nation. That will be important in the Republican’s ‘building a case’ against Obama in 2012.

    It increasingly appears likely that the Pakistani Taliban were behind this attack. That raises serious concerns about our now experiencing a new phase in the WOT; what the Israeli’s have for so long. Car bombs, suicide bombers and the intentional targeting of children and those who offend Islam.

    The SUV was positioned so as to do both. Children in the Lion King theater and Viacom with Comedy Central. Whether intentional or not, we can anticipate further attacks. Sooner or later they’ll be successful.

    The real danger is of course our unwillingness to truly define and confront our true enemy. Eventually reality shall surely abuse us of the notion that dialog and conciliation can accomplish anything when confronted with religious malevolence.

    This won’t stop until we hold Islam accountable.

    ‘Moderates’ are condoning Islamic radicalism because theologically they have no other choice. The Koran supports the radicals, not the moderates.

    Western law includes the concept of culpability, which the dictionary defines as; “Culpability generally implies that an act performed is wrong but does not involve any evil intent by the wrongdoer. The connotation of the term is fault rather than malice or a guilty purpose.

    It has limited significance in Criminal Law except in cases of reckless Homicide in which a person [or nation] acts negligently or demonstrates a reckless disregard for life, which results in another person’s death.”

    That is exactly what ‘moderate’ Islam is doing and we must confront them with an ultimatum; either they cut out the ‘cancer’ or we will.

    The American public is about to learn a very hard lesson. Appeasement and denial of reality results in the imposition of a terrible price.

  27. Artfldgr Says:

    brilliant comments off of the left-wing site Crooks and Liars (thanks to right handed pitcher)

    Original post:
    You know, I don’t want to jump to conclusions here, because that would make me too much like Matt Drudge. But if the car bomber was indeed a white guy in his 40s who didn’t know the difference between ammonium nitrate and plain old fertilizer, I’m thinking it’s gotta be a Beck Patriot who was trying to water the tree of liberty with… the blood of random Times Square tourists.

    they dont realize much do they?

    I would say a farmer from fly over country not only would know what kind of fertilizer, but may have over 1000lbs in a shed.

    no matter how many times its them, they ignore that looking for the trigger they need.

    they do not realize how hateful and distasteful their ideas are to regular people, and how much they reveal themselves.

    They are getting more like the Taliban by the day. Know the American Taliban leaders by their dark suit uniforms, the lapel pin, the hair, the part out of the side of their heads [how do they do that?], the shoes [apparently very important cult symbol].

    Tribal members are a bit harder to identify, but it gets easier with practice. It’s real easy if you use racial profiling simply because they are almost all white, not that i’m advising this is any way!
    It’s real easy if you use age profiling simply because they are middle age or older [plus a few of their offspring]. There are a lot of members that thought they were going to be rich by following Bush down his rabbit hole, and they’re crazy that they were thwarted.

    Nothing makes the narcissist crazier than getting busted.

    and

    $20 says it’s a Teabagger wingnut… anyone who finds ‘hope’ in Sarah Palin and fears Obama’s Socialistic agenda is likely smart enough to strap their Timex travel alarm clock to a bag of Turfbuilder Plus

    and one of the best
    What Anti American party has been calling for the failure of this Presidency, what party is GUILTY of having this Country ATTACKED on its watch, what Party LIED us into a WAR, what party does NOT want the TRAILS held in New York, what party LIES ,Misinforms and manipulates the Truth on a daily bases, what party left us with a 1 Trillion dollar deficit, what party Socialized losses and Privatized Profits, what party every day Preaches, Talks and wants Nothing but HATRED and FEAR, what party want the PLUTOCRACY of America, oh their CRIMES are many more to include the present OIL SPILL in the GULZF with a typical RIGHT WING COWARDLY response.
    I give you the GUTLES, SPINELESS, COWARDLY Right Wing Wackos called republicans and their Fear and Hate mongering tea baggers (hey Idiot tea baggers were are your drill baby drill tee shirts now you spineless racist Nazis, and like all good SPINELESS republicans these COWARDS will find away to blame everyone but themselves.
    The bomber will be a Right Wing Wacko, who has ties to the republican party and the tea baggers. Please note Wacko Right Wing immediately reported it was the middle east. Look for some of the cameras not to be working and the tapes to be lost or damaged Right Wing Wacko land is now in Damage control mode. This was and is a attempt by the Right Wing to discredit the President and put the Plutocrats in direct POWER. The right wing machine is a SELL OUT Machine.

    they know the enemy because they see it in the mirror.

    they do not see that they are opposed to themselves, and the harder they work,the more the things they oppose are happening, so they work harder.

    this is akin to spinning a man around on a football field and having him run to the wrong end zone.

    which long ago i explained

    the more they see themselves become their enemy, the more they work to destroy themselves. and the more they destroy themselves, the more of an enemy they are, and the harder they work.

    they are akin to a man with a laser pistol who shoots themselves, surprised to see themselves in a mirror.

    they hate that a president is a black man even worse than they hate that he’s a dem. then he turns out to be a fucking raygun dem bipartisanshit-seeking corporatist of the highest order.
    many are pissed off, but the special kind of car-bomb pissed off belongs to rethuglyKKKans.
    they are racists, not just crazy. it’s an ugly word for an ugly, irrational mental disorder. it is also the truth.

    and lastly for now
    Fertilizer, gun locker, firecrackers and alarm clocks. It screams rightwing idiot to me. No self respecting terrorist would be that stupid.

  28. Bob from Virginia Says:

    good one artfldgr

  29. Sergey Says:

    Yes, Curtis, I remember this woman advocate of Blind Sheikh who secretly passed on his instructions from prison to his co-conspirators abroad. With so many enemy colaborators inside it is a helluva job to defend a beseiged castle. Was she disbarred?

  30. Alex Says:

    I don’t understand all this “almost got away” stuff. The flight from NY to Dubai is over 12 hours. So long as they figured out who he was in that time they could have police waiting for him on the tarmac in Dubai. Everyone is making it seem like they caught him by minutes.

  31. Tatyana Says:

    Geoffrey, are oyu the same Geoffrey Britain who not long ago said, paraphrasing “They come after Muslims, and I was silent because I’m not one”, etc.? And when I objected, told me “we should be going after radical Muslims, not moderates”?

    Glad you changed your mind.

  32. Tatyana Says:

    will: true, all true.

  33. MDL Says:

    Just read his Miranda rights and then lock him up for life. [Or hang him if it comes to that.] By not reading his Miranda rights you actually jeopardize locking him up forever because he could get off for some technicality. Although, he won’t.

    But the whole issue over Miranda rights is a dumb one. The dude will not be set free. Our legal system is pretty good at locking drug offenders up for life. It will have trouble doing the same for a bombing suspect.

  34. Sergey Says:

    Was anybody in USA charged with treason after Benedict Arnold?

  35. Artfldgr Says:

    Will Obama and Holder charge him with treason? That is clearly the appropriate charge.

    no.. it isnt… movie treason is not the same as the treason law… its also the only crime specifically defined in the constitution…

    Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows:

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
    No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

    so forget treason..

    Congress has, at times, passed statutes creating related offenses that undermine the government or the national security, such as sedition in the 1798 Alien and Sedition Acts, or espionage and sedition in the 1917 Espionage Act, which do not require the testimony of two witnesses and have a much broader definition than Article Three treason.

    ah… but do you want to know who removed them?

    the progressives… who also removed laws against teaching communism… or subverting the constitution.. [most recent one attemtped was in california]

    short of an amendment to the constituition you CANT convict him of treason.

    The Constitution does not itself create the offense; it only restricts the definition (the first paragraph), permits Congress to create the offense, and restricts any punishment for treason to only the convicted (the second paragraph). The crime is prohibited by legislation passed by Congress. Therefore the United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states “whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

    The requirement of testimony of two witnesses was inherited from the British Treason Act 1695 (Since 1945, however, this has been abolished in British law and treason cases are now subject to the same rules of evidence and procedure as a murder trial, but the US requirement still stands barring an amendment).

    In the history of the United States there have been fewer than 40 federal prosecutions for treason and even fewer convictions.

    and only two convictions at the state level..Thomas Dorr in Rhode Island and that of John Brown in Virginia. it seems that americans keep evoking the SOVIET idea of treason..

    Article 275 of the Criminal Code of Russia [5] defines treason as “espionage, disclosure of state secrets, or any other assistance rendered to a foreign State, a foreign organization, or their representatives in hostile activities to the detriment of the external security of the Russian Federation, committed by a citizen of the Russian Federation.” The sentence is imprisonment for 12 to 20 years. It is not a capital offence….

    we have internalized the future, so that what we had seems alien and what we move to is familiar.

    The Alien and Sedition Acts were four bills passed in 1798 by the Federalists in the 5th United States Congress during an undeclared naval war with France, later known as the Quasi-War. They were signed into law by President John Adams. Proponents claimed the acts were designed to protect the United States from alien citizens of enemy powers and to prevent seditious attacks from weakening the government.

    this was at a time when democrats and republicans were one party… (and strict constitutionalists)…

    when most people are trying to think of the problem in this current ‘war’… they would be advised to go to

    The Espionage Act of 1917 was a United States federal law passed on June 15, 1917, shortly after the U.S. entry into World War I. It prohibited any attempt to interfere with military operations, support America’s enemies during wartime, to promote insubordination in the military, or interfere with military recruitment. In 1919, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Schenck v. United States that the Act did not violate the free speech rights of those convicted under its provisions.

    now you know why they refuse to “declare war” any more. if they declared vietnam to be a war, then guess what would have been legal?

    ok.. since Obama changes the terms, he allows the alternative arguments in. the whole thing is to make sure that they can work against the people, and still not fall afoul of this. in order to get all this, one has to understand the history, the law, psychology, and shadow history of the great game..
    miss any part, and your going to make up stuff and fill in blanks unless your practiced at accepting and being aware of what you dont know.

    the issues of sedition and all that treason stuff was worked out by founding fathers.. its this law that we mix it up with. oh… and who or what group was twiddling here? the progressives.

    President Wilson and Attorney General Thomas Gregory supported passage of the Act, but viewed it as a compromise. The President’s Congressional rivals were proposing to remove responsibility for monitoring pro-German activity, whether espionage or some form of disloyalty, from the Department of Justice to the War Department and creating a form of courts-martial of doubtful constitutionality. The resulting Act was far more aggressive and restrictive than they wanted, but it disarmed critics of their conduct of the war on the home front.[1] Officials in the Justice Department who had little enthusiasm for the law nevertheless hoped that even without generating many prosecutions it would help quiet public calls for more government action against those thought to be insufficiently patriotic.[2]

    It made it a crime:

    * To convey information with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the armed forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies. This was punishable by death or by imprisonment for not more than 30 years.

    * To convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies when the United States is at war, to cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or to willfully obstruct the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States. This was punishable by a maximum fine of $10,000 fine and up to 20 years in prison.

    The Act also gave the Postmaster General authority to refuse to mail or to impound publications that he determined to be in violation of its prohibitions.[3]

    it was a master stroke for the progressives, who wanted us to destroy the middle class in a war. so they promised never to get into the war. and made laws like this, with the result that the minute woodrow wilson declared WAR… no one could legally argue against it. its called being stuck between a rock and a hard place in a heads i win tails you lose set up. we also confuse it because of a different sedition act that went with it.

    The Sedition Act of 1918 was an Act of the United States Congress signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson on May 16, 1918.[1] It forbade the use of “disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language” about the United States government, its flag, or its armed forces or that caused others to view the American government or its institutions with contempt. The act also allowed the Postmaster General to refuse to deliver mail that met those same standards for punishable speech or opinion. It applied only to times “when the United States is in war.”[2] It was repealed on December 13, 1920
    ……
    The Espionage Act made it a crime to aid enemies of the United States or to interfere with the war effort or with military recruitment. The Sedition Act extended its provisions to cover a broader range of offenses, notably speech and the expression of opinion that cast the government or the war effort in a negative light or interfered with the sale of government bonds. One historian of American civil liberties has called it “the nation’s most extreme antispeech legislation.”[6] Those convicted under the act generally received sentences of imprisonment for 10 to 20 years.[7]

    it was the presidents AFTER wilson that brought about the roaring 20s, a copy of weimar.. they repealed these things. it was part of how wilson would change america from a constitutional republic… its THIS law that we think of when americans think of treason, wwi, and so forth. these acts were used to prevent and remove soviets, communists, and marxists from schools and the state.

    [edited for length by n-n]

  36. Mrs Whatsit Says:

    So far, on President Obama’s 15-month watch, we have had at least three terrorist attacks perpetrated by Muslims on (or over) American soil: the Fort Hood massacre, the unsuccessful Christmas Day bombing, and now the Times Square attack. One was agonizingly successful; the other two, unsuccessful only because of the vigilance of citizens and the fecklessness of the would-be bombers. Has any such record of multiple attacks within our borders in such a short time been racked up under any other President, including the supposedly hapless Bush? You’d almost think that would-be terrorists perceive Obama’s presidency as a golden opportunity — and it appears that they are right.

  37. Artfldgr Says:

    and just so those that dont know get it.

    Holmes was criticized during his lifetime and afterward for his philosophical views, which his opponents characterized as moral relativism. Holmes’s critics believe that he saw few restraints on the power of a governing class to enact its interests into law.

    They assert that his moral relativism influenced him not only to support a broad reading of the constitutional guarantee of “freedom of speech,” but also led him to write an opinion for the Court upholding Virginia’s compulsory sterilization law in Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), where he found no constitutional bar to state-ordered compulsory sterilization of an institutionalized, allegedly “feeble-minded” woman. Holmes wrote, “We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. … three generations of imbeciles are enough.”

    While his detractors point to this case as an extreme example of his moral relativism, other legal observers argue that this was a consistent extension of his own version of strict utilitarianism, which weighed the morality of policies according to their overall measurable consequences in society and not according to their own normative worth.

    When the issue of compulsory sterilization was brought up at the Nuremberg trials after the war, many Nazis defended their actions on the matter by indicating that it was the United States itself from whom they had taken inspiration.

    Holmes was admired by the Progressives of his day who concurred in his narrow reading of “due process.”

    He regularly dissented when the Court invoked due process to strike down economic legislation, most famously in the 1905 case of Lochner v. New York. Holmes’s dissent in that case, in which he wrote that “a Constitution is not intended to embody a particular economic theory,” is one of the most-quoted in Supreme Court history. However, Holmes wrote the opinion of the Court in the Pennsylvania Coal Co. v. Mahon case which inaugurated regulatory takings jurisprudence in holding a Pennsylvania regulatory statute constituted a taking of private property. His dissenting opinions on behalf of freedom of expression were celebrated by opponents of the Red Scare and prosecutions of political dissidents that began during World War I.

    Holmes’s personal views on economics were influenced by Malthusian theories that emphasized struggle for a fixed amount of resources; however, he did not share the young Progressives’ ameliorist views.

    so we used this idea to force abortions and sterilization and euthanasia..

    isnt it nice the same people are at it again?

    [edited for length by n-n]

  38. Mrs Whatsit Says:

    Um, Alex? Dubai is a different country. Our police have no power there, and whether law enforcement types in Dubai would choose to cooperate with us and extradite a fugitive back to our soil would be entirely up to them.

  39. Artfldgr Says:

    Has any such record of multiple attacks within our borders in such a short time been racked up under any other President

    yes..

    but you have to go to wwii and before…

  40. Curtis Says:

    Lynn Stewart got 28 months for her treason.

    As to Benedict Arnold, if I remember correctly, Arnold’s wife did quite a hysterical routine which may have prevented Arnold’s capture, and Gen. Washington was quite taken in. (Gen. Washington is quite undervalued for his ability and acumen regarding spy work this event notwithstanding)

    I think, no; no-one was accused of treason except perhaps, of course, Arnold himself.

  41. BlogTalk: Miranda Rights for Terrorists - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com Says:

    [...] posits that would-be terrorists may have figured out that U.S. citizenship will offer some protection from prosecution, although that logic doesn’t make sense if terrorists aim to die in their [...]

  42. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Tatyana,

    I haven’t changed my mind and my opinions on this subject are the result of long contemplation and have been held for many years. 9/11 prompted that process.

    I am not in favor of going after any ethnic or religious group. I am in favor of responding to attacks. I am in favor of holding those responsible, accountable.

    Since we last conversed, the actual Arizona law has become available and my former concerns, which if I recall correctly I specified as speculative, have been addressed and found to be unfounded. I therefore fully support the Arizona law.

    My not being in favor of targeting Muslims is not contradicted by my last comment upon this thread.

    Moderate Muslims want peace but will not confront radical Islam, unless they have to. Besides the very real risk it would subject them to, theologically they have no basis for opposing the radical’s interpretation of Islam. Call the ‘moderates’ “lapsed Muslims” if you wish but the Koran and Muhammad’s later pronouncements do support the radicals interpretation, so they are on solid theological ground in engaging in violent Jihad.

    Moderate Muslim’s may well claim this to be a sect, which is disputable but whether so or not, the moderates, in their acquiescence are culpable in the actions of the radicals.

    Any Muslim in America who actively supports radical Islam, “with aid and comfort” should be jailed and those countries, such as Saudi Arabia who facilitate Islamic extremism should be emphatically confronted.

    We need a new policy formulated against Islamic terrorism. Muslims need to be made to understand that should a nuclear bomb be used by an Islamic terrorist group against a US city, their culpability in that crime will result in certain retribution.

    Those held responsible will include the nation primarily involved in supporting the responsible terrorist group in the attack and, Tehran and Damascus, as the foremost state sponsors of terrorism. Plus Mecca and Medina for Islam’s failure to control those who act in its name. All will immediately cease to exist.

    Muslims and Islam needs to understand that culpability in an attack upon a US city with WMD will cost them a terrible price.

    A price they will never have to pay unless, either through direct involvement or culpability, they first impose a similar price upon us.

    Culpability “has limited significance in Criminal Law except in cases of reckless Homicide in which a person [or nation] acts negligently or demonstrates a reckless disregard for life, which results in another person’s death.”

  43. Bob from Virginia Says:

    Mrs. Whatsit, many are probably noticing as you have the consistency of these attacks. I wonder how many will connect a groveling President as appearing so weak that he is inviting attack by those who think they have little to fear.

    Remember Prime Minister Howard of Australia warned us about Obama being elected President with regards to Al-Qaeda early in 2007. He was referring specifically to Iraq but message was clear, the US under Obama is the weak horse, the one no one need fear. Perhaps a few Obama lovers will figure out that Bush made the bad guys afraid, and think twice about Obama’s claim that Bush created more terrorists than he killed (also the surge would not work, there was no connection between the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc).

    I wonder how many Obzombies will figure out Obama is full of it? Unfortunately if these attacks continue the law of averages will catch up with us. Obama will blame Bush of course, anybody but himself.

    As many here have stated, the public’s education about Obama will be blood soaked.

    http://www.news.com.au/al-qaeda-praying-for-obama-win/story-e6frfkp9-1111112976069

  44. Artfldgr Says:

    Perhaps a few Obama lovers will figure out that Bush made the bad guys afraid

    they already know it… but they don’t apply it.
    that is, they are and know they are bad guys in terms of what morals they break by working for the cause. so they fear the same thing that the terrorists feared, a man who would actually go after bad guys.

    whether they realize it or not, they are in a double bind. if they want to stop any of the kinds of things that are going on, they have to forfeit their cause.

    the leaders know this and know their own roots in terrorism (even feminism – rote zora ring a bell?), even if we are ignorant of it, they are not.

    [often celebrating the person by painting a half picture, then later if discovered say that they changed, or some other thing to preserve the half picture we have already become accustomed to. Sanger is a perfect example. but there are literally hundreds]

    they cant allow such moral law, or else they allow the tool to remove what they do before they are done. after that, it doesnt matter much as they become the law, and above it at that point. and yes, people will fall in line, even those that everyone believes wont.

    they can only believe that in the absence of method – so they, as with others refuse to accept that any method presented would work.

    what i said in the other thread, it applies here too


    whats hard, is to get people to accept the conclusion, and then deny the hope that the false conclusion gives.

    so instead they deny the conclusion

    and in so doing, the affix the end result to certainty

    they pretend to win or stalemate by refusing to conced the validty. if they accept no opposing argument then everything from your side is a tie.

    kind of like when chess was big…

    who was the man who stormed out because the Russians refused to play for a win? (bobby fischer?)

    they played for tie so as to pretend to be equals

    Tal, Lasker, Capablanca, Botvinnik, spasky, fischer, all great players… Lasker was brutal… fischer danced…

    [imagine my excitement when the famous Russian photographer of the ballet would bring me to Manhattan chess club to play, and i discovered that i rediscovered the Latvian gambit. :) had a different name before Karlis Betins]

  45. Curtis Says:

    Two completely right attitudes:

    “Muslims need to be made to understand that should a nuclear bomb be used by an Islamic terrorist group against a US city, their culpability in that crime will result in certain retribution.”
    (Geoffrey Britain)

    “I have a hankerin for some spankerin.” (Homer Simpson with club in hand on ‘Snake Day.’)

  46. neo-neocon Says:

    Sergey: her name is Lynn Stewart, and she was convicted and sentenced (which led to automatic disbarment), and is now in prison awaiting a resentencing (probably to a longer term) because of new evidence about some of her offenses during the first trial, including perjury.

  47. neo-neocon Says:

    Alex: the “he almost got away” concern is because long before he boarded that plane, authorities had his name and should have put him on the no fly list. There should have been an all points bulletin checking every mode of transportation for someone traveling anywhere by that name (but especially NY airports, and especially all international flights to Moslem countries). The fact that he boarded the plane was too close for comfort.

    That said, in my “ADDENDUM II” I mentioned a report that authorities actually did have him on the list and knew he was about to get on the plane, but allowed him to board the flight anyway in order to see whether there were accomplices on it. If true, this is much more reassuring. But about an hour ago I heard a different report, this one saying that he had been put on the no fly list but because there was some sort of glitch the computer check didn’t find him, but that after he boarded the plane authorities looked at the list not by computer but in the old-fashioned way, spotted his name, boarded the plane, and detained him. That is also too close for comfort, in my book, considering all the information they already had.

    So the controversy is not about whether there was still time to get him at some point in flight or at Dubai—technically, there was. It is that they should have gotten him earlier.

    The other question (and I don’t know the answer) is the one MrsWhatsit raises: the cooperation of Dubai. I assume that Dubai would be disposed to allow extradition, but I am not at all certain. And I’m not sure at what point their cooperation would be needed (if the plane is halfway there? If he has already gone through customs?) Much better to get him before any of that becomes an issue. Fortunately, they did.

    I just found a link to the updated story. Take a look.

  48. Wandriaan Says:

    That Mayor Bloomsberg said this on a regular tv-show
    gives you an idea how deep the hate is on the Left against the Right. It is so deep that it clouds their judgement on real threats assessments.
    NYC was bombed by Islamic radicals in an horrific way in 2001, but now, on a new attack, the suspicion of the Mayor goes to conservatives, not to Islamic radicals. He tells it publicly and people find it acceptable. It is mindboggling. Hate clouds the judgement of real threats. To come out with this judgement shows you how deep the hate is.
    The funny thing is that most (liberal) New Yorkers probably agreed with him. Even when an Islamic dirty bomb kills tens of thousands of them, they will still blame Bush and the conservatives, and not Islamic radicals and the liberal establishment that is supposed to protect them against a selfproclaimed enemy.
    A Jew said after World War II that he had learned one thing:’When someone says that he is going to kill you, you had better believe him’. Apparently, New York liberals, many of whom are Jews, still have not learned this lesson. They are too busy hating conservatives.
    This hate explains perhaps also why they think that Islamic radicals are not that bad. Surely they can not be as bad as their number 1 enemy: the Right.
    Everyone with a brain knows that Islamic radicals hate nothing as much as the kind of lifestyles NYC sets on display. Number 1 citadel of Satan, a no-brainer.
    By the way: it seems that the bombcar was placed nearby the Office of Southpark, the people who put Mohammed on television in bear costume and recieved deaththreats after that. I watched these Southpark guys explaining their actions with the bear costume. It was a typical liberal display of arrogant, juvenile, naive bravado. Apparently these guys had never heard of Danish cartoonists. But by now they will have surely been informed by liberal journalists to be a little more respectful next time…You got to respect the Prophet you know, not Christ, not Moses, not Boeddha…Some threat assessments liberal journalists seem still very well able to make…

  49. SteveH Says:

    Liberals have a desperate need to think multiculturalism would be a natural condition in the world if it weren’t for conservative white Americans. Thats why they go into such bizzare forms of denial every time the world repeatedly proves them wrong.

  50. Curtis Says:

    Just read that the Phoenix Suns will be wearing its “Los Suns” jerseys for Wednesday night’s Game 2 against the San Antonio Spurs to honor the Latino community and protest the Arizona immigration bill.

    The reporter, Trey Kerby, interjects his viewpoint: “Awesome.”

    Maybe the New York Knicks will show their empathy by wearing jerseys that spell out their names in arabic.

  51. SteveH Says:

    “”Just read that the Phoenix Suns will be wearing its “Los Suns” jerseys for Wednesday night’s Game”"

    I know what liberals like this remind me of now. They’re like the guy at work that insist he knows how to do everything better than management but forever remains a non decision making flunky so he’ll never be proven wrong.

  52. Bob From Virginia Says:

    November will be interesting.
    America as a power could disappear the evening of the election, and with it our concept of freedom (not having to get permission of a bureaucracy to do everything), and hope of freedom for hundreds of millions of others.

  53. RigelDog Says:

    About Miranda: there is no law that requires Miranda warnings. The authorities can talk to a defendant as much as they want without warnings—they just wont be allowed to use what the defendant says in court. In the case of a terrorism arrest, it seems to me that the default position should be that the chance to gather intell and possibly prevent future attacks is likely to be a higher priority than worrying about strengthening the evidence available at trial of this particular terrorist.

  54. will Says:

    Steve and CurtisH-

    A real interesting turn would be to replace the roster of the Phoenix Suns entirely with Mexicans. Let’s see how that squares with Al Sharpton and the NBA players assocaition. See how the hollow, bullshit move of “Los Suns” goes over. We would also want Angels outfielder Torii Hunter’s (who is black) take on the situation, he who recently branded Hispanic players as “impostors”

    See how much love for the Mexican brothers we got then.

  55. M J R Says:

    Amazing. How many Phoenix Suns players are actual residents of Arizona? Sure seems like moral preening on the cheap.

    Or (likely) did the Suns’ management put them up to it? — can’t offend potential customers and all that.

  56. Occam's Beard Says:

    Just read that the Phoenix Suns will be wearing its “Los Suns” jerseys for Wednesday night’s Game 2 against the San Antonio Spurs to honor the Latino community and protest the Arizona immigration bill.

    The Spurs should wear jerseys with “INS” on them. Probably be a huge hit back in Texas.

  57. Artfldgr Says:

    “The champions of socialism call themselves progressives, but they recommend a system which is characterized by rigid observance of routine and by a resistance to every kind of improvement.

    They call themselves liberals, but they are intent upon abolishing liberty.

    They call themselves democrats, but they yearn for dictatorship.

    They call themselves revolutionaries, but they want to make the government omnipotent.

    They promise the blessings of the Garden of Eden, but they plan to transform the world into a gigantic post office.

    Every man but a subordinate clerk in a bureau. What an alluring utopia! What a noble cause to fight!

    Against all this frenzy of agitation there is but one weapon available: reason.

    Just common sense is needed to prevent man from falling prey to illusory fantasies and empty catchwords.”
    Ludwig Von Mises

  58. Artfldgr Says:

    since we are talking about distracting things more than waht is going on that will actualy affect a majority of people… there is no place to place this..

    at this point we can conclude that what makes the present recession drastically different from all the post-war downturns is a Democratic Party that is now so statist one is entitled to call it socialist. (I would say it is socialist in a neo-fascist sense2). For these people there really is no such thing as economics. They seem to have wholeheartedly adopted the view (along with the vicious tactics of the hateful Saul Alinsky) of S. G. Strumilin, a Marxist economist, who once declared: “Our task is not to study economics but to change it. We are bound by no laws”. (Cited in Robert Coquest’s Harvest of Sorrow, Pimlico, 2002, p. 112.) It is a belief that any fascist would enthusiastically endorse.

    If the Democrats insist on clinging to their statist (neo-fascist) approach to economics I don’t see much hope for the US economy. GDP might continue to grow or even accelerate somewhat but under these conditions I cannot see a sustained process of economic growth emerging. http://brookesnews.com/100305fascisteconomics.html

  59. Artfldgr Says:

    lets get the attribution right..

    S. G. Strumilin was one of STALINS economists…

    Wondering why young people spout Marxist claptrap? Look no further than the universities
    http://www.brookesnews.com/092112socialism.html

    So where do young people get this socialist drivel from? Unfortunately much of it comes from our universities. This brings to mind Frank Stilwell, a socialist professor of economics at the University of Sydney and another example of the left’s total inability to learn from history, particularly economic history. In Why bother about economic inequality (OnlineOpinion, 15 July 2002) he slagged, the name of equality, “economic rationalism, economic fundamentalism and neoliberalism”, leftwing codenames for free market economics.

    Real wages are basically determined by the ratio of labour to the capital structure, not by posturing politicians, bullying unioncrats and their Marxist allies in academia — and certainly not by the “customs of society”. Therefore, as a country expands its capital structure, adding to it more and more complex stages of production embodying new technology, it raises living standards. Moreover, as Stillwell knows, or should, marginal productivity theory explains why there is a tendency in the free market for workers to receive the full value of their labor, which in turn is paid by consumers and not employers.

    One of the roles of a businessman is to act as an intermediary between consumers and the factors of production. This renders absurd Stillwell’s claim that companies should keep up wages to avert poverty. Any attempt to raise wages above market rates will raise unemployment. The obverse is that any attempt to keep wages below market rates will cause labor shortages.

    What really nails Stillwell is the fact that the “distributional hierarchy” is a socialist myth. Most incomes, as I have already pointed out, are not distributed, but earned (with the exception, perhaps, of some academics). Marxist attempts to demonstrate that labour was exploited by having part of its income (surplus value) confiscated by capitalists were completely demolished by the “marginalist revolution,” and especially by the brilliant work of Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk (Capital and Interest, three volumes,1884 – 1912).

    Stillwell is too shrewd a propagandist to directly use Marx’s discredited exploitation theory of labor to attack free labor markets, so what he could not achieve by open debate he hoped to gain by stealth. Hence his insinuation that there is something unjust about market income disparities even though market participants tend to be paid in accordance with the value of their work.

    This enabled him to confidently assert that a deregulated labor market “could certainly swell the ranks of those classified as living in poverty” despite the fact that the greatest cause of poverty in Australia was the unemployment that his beloved unions and arbitration commission created. But then again, Marxists are not generally noted for heeding inconvenient facts.

    (In his brilliant seminar at the University of Vienna in the 1890s Böhm-Bawerk utterly demolished Marx’s economics. Böhm-Bawerk’s analysis was published in English in 1898 under the title Karl Marx and the Close of His System)

    sigh

  60. Artfldgr Says:

    Those who wish to read Böhm-Bawerk’s analysis can go here: http://mises.org/books/karlmarx.pdf

    the book is free…

    of course… it pretty much a given that if they don’t read it, they can keep inputting and sounding original.

    anyone notice that i bring up names and people and such and almost everyone doesn’t know them?

    they should be known as they are foundational to how we live today… (or why we live this way since their works have been erased)

  61. Artfldgr Says:

    By the way… if you read Bawerk, you will understand why INTENTIONS earn their reward, and not outcome!!!

    We will begin with a question which will carry us straight
    to the main point: in what way did Marx arrive at the fundamental
    proposition of his teaching—the proposition that all
    value depends solely upon incorporated quantities of labor?
    That this proposition is not a self-evident axiom, needing no
    proof, is beyond doubt. Value and effort, as I have stated at
    length in another place, are not ideas so intimately connected
    that one is forced immediately to adopt the view that effort is
    the basis of value. “That I have toiled over a thing is one fact,
    that the thing is worth the toil is another and a different fact,
    and that the two facts do not always go hand in hand is far too
    firmly established by experience to admit of any doubt. It is
    proved by all the labor which is daily wasted on valueless
    results, owing either to want of technical skill, or to bad speculation,
    or to simple misfortune; and not less by each of the
    numerous cases in which a very little toil has a result of very
    great value.”

    they are informed by Marx labor theory of value

    and the work done on something that doesn’t work, is equal to the work done on something that does work!

    value of the outcome is not determined by its merit, but by the amount of labor, as if labor had a conversion value like a BTU, and as if no one can waste labor on fruitless ends.

    in this way, real reasearch
    busy work… sitting at a desk to be paid
    real work… taking a dump on the toilet.

    ALL have work labor value…

    In this way, no one cares what they output of ones work is! there is no way to be wrong, or not have the world valued!!!

    i keep saying it makes sense if you read and learn what cult bizarro view they have been handed

  62. Artfldgr Says:

    Stanislav Gustavovich Strumilo-Petrashkevich was a Social Democrat (Menshevik) before 1917. Involved in revolutionary activities, he was arrested several times.

    In the Soviet period, Strumilin held various high positions in the State Planning Board Gosplan (deputy chairman several times, chairman of the economic-statistical section during the 1920s) and in the Academy of Sciences of the USSR (1931 full membership and doctor of economics honoris causa). For decades he also worked as a professor.

    Strumilin published on economic planning, the economics of labor, industrial statistics, and economic history, and he took sides in all important economic debates. He combined theoretical argumentation with empirical statistics and also incorporated sociological perspectives (e.g., in his pioneering time-budget studies). During the politicized economic debates of the 1920s, he was a radical advocate of a planned economy and responsible for the drawing up of the First Five-Year-Plan. He opted for the teleological method of planning, which takes the final (production) targets as a starting point. His demographic works, among them a prediction regarding the number and age – sex composition of the population of Russia for 1921 – 1941, were influential in the Soviet Union and gained international attention.

    Strumilin managed to survive the purges of the Josef Stalin period and benefited from the rehabilitation of the economists after World War II. He then concentrated on labor issues and the impact of education on wage differentials, participated actively in the economic debates of the 1950s and 1960s, and published until 1973. He represented the first generation of Soviet Marxist economists.

  63. Niamh Carter Says:

    southpark is great! the best cartoon that i have ever watched’~’

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