Korea heating up
In the flurry of all the current domestic news, and the crisis involving the economies of Europe, it’s easy to ignore the mess going on between the two Koreas.
But we shouldn’t. The North’s attack on the South’s warship Cheonan in South Korean waters killed forty-six South Korean sailors and sent shockwaves through the area. It’s not just the loss of life, but the loss of faith in a policy South Korea adopted long ago and had hope would help damp down the North’s aggressive tendencies. It seems that the Cheonan attack has afforded South Korea’s president a rude and unwelcome awakening:
As President Lee Myung Bak grimly observed on Monday, the South has “always tolerated North Korea’s brutality” for the sake of peace, to the point of “forgetting the reality that the nation faces the most belligerent regime in the world”.
No longer, he said: this time, Pyongyang must be made to pay. To Western ears, what President Lee actually announced may not sound all that draconian: a freeze on trade, banning all North Korean shipping from the South’s territorial waters, the effective sealing of the frontier and, a literal blast from the past, the decision to resume belting out propaganda across the demilitarised zone…
Yet some of these measures will hurt. The trade freeze that President Lee announced will deprive North Korea of 13 per cent of its GDP…For South Korea to be in the vanguard of a strategy of “proactive deterrence”, instead of tugging at US coat tails urging patience and restraint, is a dramatic volte face.
In other words, South Korea is learning an obvious and ancient lesson that seems increasingly difficult for governments to assimilate in this day and age: being kind to the cruel doesn’t work; you only end up being cruel to the kind. Or, put another way, the scorpion doesn’t change its nature; it will bite you if given the opportunity.
Why is this so hard to learn? Why has wishful thinking increasingly replaced common sense, to our detriment? After the excesses of the first half of the twentieth century—coupled with the new post-WWII fear of atomic war—the world became weary of conflict and activated the age-old dream of a better (kindler, gentler) way. But tyrants see that as laughable weakness, I’m afraid.
Economic sanctions will be tried on North Korea.. But that only works when a dictator cares about his people, and doesn’t have a source of outside support, such as Kim does with China.
The problems with North Korea are not Obama’s fault. No administration has been able to deal effectively with the country. That’s because, IMHO, there is no solution, which is a frightening prospect. Kim’s death has been supposedly imminent for years, but he’s still there and still appears to be in control. What’s more, it’s not at all clear that the chaos that might ensue after his death would be any better than the present situation, depending on who emerges victorious.
However, at least Bush gave the appearance of some toughness, which might have acted as a tiny bit of deterrent to the sort of escalation that is now happening on Obama’s toothless watch. But don’t get me wrong—this sort of crisis has been brewing for a long, long time, and may have been unpreventable.
Kudos to South Korea for taking a stand. This is a no brainer even for Obama. The U.S. needs to stand fourquare behind the South.
North Korea regime is unraveling. I heard this from my friend, an expert on terrorism and international security, who knows Korean language and was studing the country for two decades. This was two month ago, and he wandered if it will last another 6 month, and what to do in case of a sudden collapse.
yesterday there was a big seismic event.
a researcher friend of mine looked and zeroed it into the pacific near that area… i originally thought the volcanoes. we cant figure out where such a big boom would come from…..
in the thread on iran, i posted that the north is moving rocket launchers and mortars into position.
lets hope that the north didnt replace the tunnels they found years ago.
Incursion Tunnels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone#Incursion_tunnels
Upon their discovery, North Korea claimed that the tunnels were for coal mining; however, no coal has been found in the tunnels, which are dug through granite, but some of the tunnel walls have been painted black to give the appearance of anthracite
Gonna have a hot time in the igloo tonight doing the Carioca!!!
i would also pay attention (in terms of korea) with whats going on in Thailand and Cambodia too.
Thaksin wants back… he has tapped russia for over 1.5 billion and Gazprom wants its investment in taking thailand to pay off.
Remember in December, they seized a plane from north korea with 35 tons of weapons… the crew was from Belarus, and Kazakhstan, so guess whose was supplying these weapons for revolution? (and note how plane transport or boat is a big problem)
it is thought the shipment was sourced from Viktor (“Lord of War”) Bout… (yes the story in lord of war was based on a real person, and that person is NOT american or western!!!!!!!!!!!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_war)
they basically reformed the criminal to a man named yuri from the ukraine who is american…
when the real deal was SOVIET Plot details on the illegal arms market, particularly regarding purchases for Tropical Africa in early 1990s, are closely based on real stories and people originating from the former Soviet Union.
* The main protagonist’s name, Yuri Orlov, corresponds to the last name of Oleg Orlov, a Russian businessman arrested in Ukraine on suspicion of smuggling missiles to Iran. The real Orlov was strangled in Kiev’s Lukyanivska Prison in 2007 during the investigation.[8]
* The character Andre Baptiste, Sr. is partly based on Charles Taylor, the President of Liberia until 2003.[9]
* The character of Colonel Oliver Southern is evidently hinting of Oliver North, most famous for his involvement in the Iran-Contra Scandal.
Viktor Bout – en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout
A recent video of Thaksin shows him informing his people that he is hiding in russia (guess who else is also there!)…
[and the head of red shirts was assassinated while giving an interview i a large crowd. takes some skill, and points out to how serious these factions are on both sides]
Govt calls for Thais to free Cambodian
http://www.phnompenhpost.com/index.php/2010052439242/National-news/govt-calls-for-thais-to-free-cambodian.html
there is talk of deporting the 500,000 migrant workers as they represent a potential army to the red shirts.
Cambodia, Vietnam re-affirm their vows
[pro-Thaksin groups had for the past two years funneled arms through Cambodia to Thaksin-aligned supporters in Thailand’s northeastern provinces]
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/KD23Ae01.html
so the whole area is heating up, not just korea.
[but be careful trying to read and find information. there are a lot of pages that try to put viruses on your machine and are very fast and very officious looking and if you click wrong… (stay away from china defense mashup)]
china is showing its military stuff, and they have stated they are willing to use nuclear weapons.
so most of middle asia is in play… (as i said it would be)
there is a lot more…
Why is this so hard to learn? Why has wishful thinking increasingly replaced common sense, to our detriment? After the excesses of the first half of the twentieth century–coupled with the new post-WWII fear of atomic war–the world became weary of conflict and activated the age-old dream of a better (kindler, gentler) way. But tyrants see that as laughable weakness, I’m afraid.
the truth is not that.
thats what we imagine the truth to be when we have no informatio and are not willing to say, we didnt take the time to find out.
who gave us that dream? who took over the press. who perverted cultural institutions and mores, played with education, and so on and so forth?
you cant in one breath recognize that these games are all a part of it, then in the next 20 breaths forget that first truth.
this is ESPECIALLY so when what your describing can be reached by rewriting history, defocusing on examples, creating PC mind control preventing us from discussing alternatives, and more
and so we have things like “peak oil” which if you read goes back to the early days (and russian ukrainian science), where they thought (and has been shown) that oil can be created without life. that just like the experiment that was used to show that life comes together, and it created a tar of organics, the same thing happens to the same chemicals way way underground (at distances life cant get to).
it was an active measure to get us to abandon the idea of non life sourced oil.. (and see where it is taking us and who gets advantage from that game)
then there is nuclear winter.. that was another active measure…
or DDT thing… anoter one
then there is the AGW thing…
there are so many of them and if you read updates to history, and not just revisioned history you would know about them!!!!!!!!!!
[heck, if hollyweird was allowed to tell those histories, you would have an idea. but there has been a blackout on the subject. complete blackout]
Active measures
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures
A few examples of active measures against the United States were described in the Mitrokhin Archive:[1]
* Promotion of false John F. Kennedy assassination theories, using writer Mark Lane.
* Discreditation of the CIA, using historian Philip Agee (codenamed PONT).
* Spreading rumors that FBI director J. Edgar Hoover was a homosexual.
* Attempts to discredit Martin Luther King, Jr. by placing publications portraying him as an “Uncle Tom” who was secretly receiving government subsidies.
* Stirring up racial tensions in the United States by mailing bogus letters from the Ku Klux Klan, placing an exposive package in “the Negro section of New York” (operation PANDORA), and spreading conspiracy theories that Martin Luther King, Jr.’s assassination had been planned by the US government.
* Fabrication of the story that AIDS virus was manufactured by US scientists at Fort Detrick; the story was spread by Russian-born biologist Jakob Segal
so if you want to know why we have some inane idea that makes no logical sense… you might want to think about how socialist teachers push the idea, and the news reflects it, and how it reverberates and everyone then thinks the big lie is true
how does this revelation change things?
note it DOES change things, but the minute i remove this fact from pressure to be included, it disappears as if it was never mentioned.
GRU alone spent more than $1 billion for propaganda and peace movements against Vietnam War, which was a “hugely successful campaign and well worth the cost”, according to the allegations of GRU defector Stanislav Lunev.[3] He claimed that “the GRU and the KGB helped to fund just about every antiwar movement and organization in America and abroad”
you think that 1 billion spent to buy off journalists, seek positions in publishers, buy publishers, fund movies, and so on… doesn’t have an effect?
[they are freaking bankrupt with all the money they spend on this and not on economy]
According to Sergei Tretyakov, “The KGB was responsible for creating the entire nuclear winter story to stop the Pershing missiles.”[4] Tretyakov says that from 1979 the KGB wanted to prevent the United States from deploying the missiles in Western Europe and that, directed by Yuri Andropov, they used the Soviet Peace Committee, a government organization, to organize and finance demonstrations in Europe against US bases.[4][5][6] He claims that misinformation based on a faked “doomsday report” by the Soviet Academy of Sciences about the effect of nuclear war on climate was distributed to peace groups, the environmental movement and the journal Ambio,[4] which carried a key article on the topic in 1982.[7]
why? so that america would see becoming more communist as the only solution to avoiding a nuclear war…
but the truth is, that they think nuclear bombs are a fine thing to use. which, if you notice, unlike our military equipment, theirs is primitive and nuclear hardened. (ie, will work after a magnetic pulse while ours wont!)
so why is wishful thinking replacing it?
easy… they are not wishful thinking, they are accepting the prevailing opinion as to what the outcome is if we do something.
if the big lie was that kittens were the source of all our problems, we would end up exterminating kittens, and after they are all gone THEN realize that wasnt it.
and to the communists its as easy as puttnig a person in a room and telling them to lie and also telling them that no matter what, never give in that its a lie.
a LARGE majority of people will follow the lie then
stydies were done where they had entered a room, one was the subject the other/s were plants. the task of the plant was to lie as to what the subject was seeing. so if the line was longer than another he would say shorter, etc..
MOST subjects are not willign to argue and stand tall against the group and say what they see that is obvious.
how far can yout ake this?
well our society pretends men and women are equal, when no such natural mechanism exists to do that (except delcaring a fundemetnal cap to intellgence and we reached it)
we belive that our choices dont change our genetics and us.
we are giving up individual rights that got us to the winning position for socialism, responsible for 100 million deaths by torture and starvation, and deprivation as a better way.
hitler got a coutnry to systematically commit genocide. so did stalin, mao..
its not so hard to understand why we belive that when we aer not allowed to say feminism is a ideological poison and not be challenged.
how can someone stand up to such inane things when feminism has insured we cant respond to whats not PC with truth?
cant, until the people with the sexual cultural thumbscrews stop
The problems with North Korea are not Obama’s fault. No administration has been able to deal effectively with the country. That’s because, IMHO, there is no solution, which is a frightening prospect.
and there is and was a solution…
but we stopped him
actually we stopped both of them…
can you guess whom to which i refer? one of them had the last initial of P, and the other had the last initial of M. and both of them predicted this situation we would later be in.
but politics (which partly is manipulated by those who such would be the point) prevented it.
The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks. – P
and
It seems strangely difficult for some to realize that here in Asia is where the Communist conspirators have elected to make their play for global conquest, and that we have joined the issue thus raised on the battlefield; that here we fight Europe’s war with arms while the diplomats there still fight it with words; that if we lose the war to communism in Asia the fall of Europe is inevitable, win it and Europe most probably would avoid war and yet preserve freedom. As you pointed out, we must win. There is no substitute for victory. M
NK population is really starving, establishment is in disarray because Kim heir was not approved by senior party leaders, and military got out of control. Tensions between military and civil apparatchiks escalate, there are rumors about looming military coup. Chinese have secret talks with western security experts about coordinated measures to contain chaos in case of collapse. This was at low level of experts, not at political level.
The KGB in Afghanistan
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/mitro-russian.pdf
they are going to push in Afghanistan, and the actions of Korea is to prevent success there. one would think that it may be dangerous brinkmanship, but obama takes the danger out of that.
sorry.. didnt realize the above link is russian edition
users.tns.net/~mroashan/HistoricalResearchCorner/ACFAE9.pdf
Historians’ Muted Response to the Vassiliev Papers Is Surprising
hnn.us/articles/106101.html
Military and technical espionage revealed for the first time in the Vassiliev notebooks killed American soldiers on the battlefields and in the skies above Korea.
and VERY important (from spies):
“By tracking the movement of Soviet military equipment and supplies, American military commanders and the president could confidently judge Soviet military capabilities, separate Stalin’s diplomatic bluffs from serious threats, and spot preparations for invasions or attacks that needed serious diplomatic or military attention.”
and since then, having a land bridge from the soviet union through iraq, iran, or turkey… and those tiny nothing countries was CRITICAL To their military games.
and bush attempting to close that transport way, ended up were we are here… with the door almost closed (Except iran), and as i said, every burner turned on to make it too hot to finish, as we didnt finish after WWII with hitlers partner (more evidence came out this week) and with Korea…
so now its all coming full circle and that past history is starting to have meaning..
only vehicles can move that much material and bury it within trade traffic.
This text explains why by the end of 1948 the Red Army had changed its codes, shutting down a vital window into Soviet military activity. If it had remained open, starting in the spring of 1950 the U.S. would have noticed massive shipments of military supplies to North Korea, providing advance notice of plans to invade South Korea. In the best case, instead of sending ambiguous diplomatic signals that emboldened Stalin to allow the North Koreans to launch the war, knowledge of the imminent invasion would have prompted the U.S. government to take steps to persuade the Soviet leader that the adventure was too risky. At a minimum, access to signals intelligence would have prevented the complete surprise that caused devastating losses early in the conflict, and would have given U.S. forces a continuing tactical advantage.
and so through mitrokhen you find out that the game was another soviet game NOT CHINESE… (but Chinese came in later fearing we would take their country and so they stopped us from finishing the russian game)
zhora’s spy leak allowed russia to hide the equipment, and so amass troops and equipment.
so when we were fighting in Korea, we were not fighting koreans as much as fighting Russians who controled Koreans, and who didnt care if they used every last man in another country to win (which is why those fights were so incredibly brutal, the koreans only had one out. win. every other one put them between stalin and death)
even recent arms shipments from Korea to thais, is Russian in origin.
The Vassiliev notebooks also shed light on the impact the Rosenberg ring had on the Korean war. Combined with declassified FBI files and other sources, the Vassiliev notebooks make it possible to construct a detailed timeline of Julius Rosenberg’s espionage ring that reveals that it provided the USSR with detailed information about hundreds of weapons systems, including many that were developed too late for use in World War II that were used in anger for the first time in Korea.
bet you never linked rosenbergs with korea!
The Rosenberg espionage ring provided information that could have been used against American troops in Korea. The notebooks reveal that when Soviet intelligence officers contacted Rosenberg in July 1948 after a two-year hiatus, they were surprised to learn that he had kept his network intact and had continued to collect technical intelligence.7
The eleven agents in Rosenberg’s network in the summer of 1948 included agents who had access to specifications about American aircraft and radar that were later deployed in Korea — specifications that would have been invaluable to Soviet military planners and weapons designers. The fact that Soviet engineers had some success in Korea jamming American radar, a practice that endangered the lives of American pilots and ground troops, can almost certainly be attributed to information provided by members of the Rosenberg ring.
the history missing in our assesments makes all the difference to our conclusions!
which is the point of stalinism (revisionism)
Interesting developments on the peninsula.
As, under the Obama administration, the US abdicates it’s role as the umbrella of protection our allies have come to depend on, we may find our allies realizing they have to step up and protect themselves a bit more forcefully – and won’t have the US as a convenient excuse for less vigorous acts of self preservation…..
None of which, btw, exonerates Obama for the international mess he’s creating with such a weak foreign policy that has been encouraging the tin pot dictators of the world to see how far they can push their own interests at the expense of the US and our allies.
Read a book some decades ago which said the original Nork attack in 1950 did not include all the forces at hand, but only some. It was a matter of a rat fight among Nork politicos, and one, who commanded a number of formations, started it, and the others had, perforce, to join in.
Not sure how Skors are going to feed all the people they liberate.
I am inclined to believe that a now smarter S. Korea genuinely fears reunification with the Norks. The Norks have been made an alien form of humanity by the two-generation super-oppressive Kim rule. These people cannot be normalized, much like a vicious, abused ten year old dog cannot be remade into a pet. it may be for this reason China supports the Kim regime: at all costs, keep ’em in Korea. The tyrannical Kims have made themselves indispensable, a truly remarkable achievement.
The unsatisfactory reunification of the two Germanys supports my notion. The social and economic differences persist despite all that West Germany has done for the East.
As the twig is bent….
artfldgr,
Take a breath and get a grip.
Most people are sheep. A few are sheep dogs and a few are wolves.
“the scorpion doesn’t change its nature; it will bite you if given the opportunity”
Very true, so upon what basis would we suppose that sheep are different from scorpions and change their nature?
To assert that S.K. President Lee Myung Bak has finally ‘learned his lesson’, “that the scorpion doesn’t change its nature”; and will, sooner or later bite you when given the opportunity is to assert that the sheep has turned into a sheep dog…
Tough talk and political posturing do not equate to walking the walk. When S.K. draws a line in the sand and says, “cross it and we’ll attack you” then they’ve changed into sheep dogs.
Otherwise, they remain sheep who despite any expressed rhetoric, continue to look to the US (their sheep dog) to protect them from the ‘wolf’, N.K. and the wolfs protector, the ‘dragon’…
Sergey wrote “North Korea regime is unraveling…he wondered if it will last another 6 months, and what to do in case of a sudden collapse.”
Sergey, the first time I heard North Korea would collapse in five years was 30 years ago.
Artfl,
Interesting observation about Russians being asiatic rather than european, I can see that being the case. I remember once Putin lectured Bush for treating Russians like they are “not quite civilized” and I was like, umm that is sort of true actually…
I have been trying for months to try to get some reasonable news on what is going on in Thailand/Asia but have largely been unsuccessful.
As far as Norks being very different from Sorks(?) there was a recent article in (ptoo) National Geographic (washes mouth out) which actually was not too bad, it showed the great lengths that Norks go to in order to escape to SoKo. And when they get there they have a very hard time assimilating, one refugee described it as going forward 2 centuries.
I will see if I can find the article.
Sometimes war IS the answer. If you are strong and willing to go to war, you usually don’t have to. While Obama is not responsible that the North Koreans are nut cases, he is responsible for being a wuss. The Norks took the measure of him and knew they had nothing to fear. Iran and Syria also have him figured out.
Mr. Frank,
you will note that what i put up, refutes Richards book, in that the archives point out that it was Zhora who gave away info, that blinded the US, and so they amassed material and went in. the tin pot dictators do what they do at the behest of their larger master.
you will note as you read on and i stay quiet, that facts dont change the opinions… that if a post is larger than a certain size its not read, and so the ONLY court left is the court of opinion and empty wit.
cant have it both ways.
you cant avoid study, learning, larger writing, and expect to remain free, not a victim, and not left beholding to others to tell you what things mean
so now i dont really care, but one thing you will find, is that my posts are quite historical, and accurate.
do not judge on size, unless all you want is the facts that can fit in a paragraph…
if you thing those who are capable of real erudition, deepthought, and so forth would be happy with that as their only fare… well… then they deserve the repercusions of such choice.
the fact that its much of the same players on the other side and barely changes, while its a whole new naive team on our side becomes clearer when you know the back story almost no one knows.
knowing a pool of critical facts that is not included in an assessment makes what of the assessment?
and if the pool of people only do that kind of assessment, how effective is that pool?
you can ask… i dont write as long as i used to any more (mostly because people are not screwing up on the history as much or leaving out large tracts of new stuff, as if what they learned 30 years ago, has not been updated)
anna,
you will find that when things are in play information gets played with and its access.
for instance… a year ago if you searched for mitrokhin, you would mostly find vasiliy.. but now since that has been problematic… you search now, and you get lots of others who have recently been published and such.
search for KGB, and you get a rock band, or a company.
what i notice over time is games are played. no different than leftists here going on to wiki and having a wiki war, or getting together to rate a book not out yet. no different than creating rap by claiming a store ordered 800 albums.. (when the store is a front).. this was common in the 50s.
since thai is in play, your going to find that the key info you want is buried under reams of opinion pieces, political pieces, constant ap or wire news that is just a variant rehash of other rehashes…
but ultimately they serve to make information smoke. look to names… key names..
most wouldnt know the name of the man who was a key player in thai, kicked out, got in bed with gazprom and so forth…. our news doesnt cover that for msm.
not since they decided to stop the cold war by stopping the reporting of what russia was caught doing. that is the cold war paranoia was a result of news being more honest about a very manipulative state.
they decided to stop it, but the only way to do that was to stop reporting, and once you started that, your already pregnant… as you cant be a little bit immoral and still be moral.
I think it’s overly glib to say our technology is so far superior to Kim’s that we’ll crush him. We had superior technology the last time we fought them and the human wave assaults they (combined with the Chinese) mounted overwhelmed us. This time — right now — they have tens of thousands of howitzers aimed at Seoul and anywhere else in reach of these weapons. Yes, we’ll knock those weapons out quickly — as we did in Iraq — once we decide to react. But if we let them take the first shot they will cause a lot of destruction — and that’s if Obama has it in him to respond quickly. If he dithers or tries to get the Chinese to intervene the Norks will have time to reload those howitzers several times and many South Koreans and American GIs will be killed. Two or three volleys will probably stun Obama even more, making a rapid response even less likely.
Kim already thinks we’re weak based on our not having done anything when he torpedoed a South Korean ship. He thinks he can fire several volleys before we do anything — and right now I think he’s pretty much correct in that assessment.
Yes, I think he’ll pull the trigger before the end of the summer. Everything he sees makes this a winning strategy when the alternative is keeping restive Nork generals in their place. And yes, I think there will be a lot of death and destruction south of the DMZ. I think the only real question is whether or not he’ll go nuclear over Seoul or sell his nukes to Syria. It’s gonna be a hot summer. F
Without going in to detail, I’ll say that people often exaggerate the strength of various enemies. Two examples: Syria–could be destroyed in a day; Libya–could be destroyed in 20 minutes.
North Korea is very militarized but can this weakened country survive an all-out attack on Pyongyang?
On the other hand, we DO NOT ever want to get into a war with China.
Let’s also not forget that Japan will probably not let North Korea do whatever it wants.
I don’t have any opinions on Russia or Russians. All the Russians I’ve ever met seem pretty civilized.
China May Shield North Korea as Lee, U.S. Seek Action on Ship
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?sid=awElM7vM4Vq4&pid=20601087
I hope the American commanders are dispersing their units right now in the south and not letting them sit on bases all bunched up.
Hmmm. Let’s review. Upon winning the Democrat nomination. Mr. Obama modestly observed that history would record that as the moment that the seas began to recede and the Earth began to heal. He has serially, and in the most crude and petulantly childish manner, insulted and abandoned our allies, and as Shakespeare said in Julius Caesar, has engaged in “base spaniel fawning,” toward our intractable enemies. Israel has little doubt that Obama would gladly stand by and do nothing to prevent a second Holocaust and would glibly read from his teleprompter afterward calling for calm and inveighing against hasty accusations. They see him willfully attacking Arizona and its citizens, and our diplomats denounce Arizona to one of the most bloodstained regimes in history. Our enemies must be shaking their heads in wonder and amazement. I suspect that the only reason they have not yet taken greater advantage is that they cannot believe that an American president would so debase his own nation. They probably think it’s a clever trick designed to lure them to their doom. But they will eventually realize that it is not and that Barack Obama does not represent the interests of America or her allies.
While several posters have noted, quite correctly, that we could obliterate all or any of those nations that threaten to destabilize the world in short order, it must be remembered that this is mere potential. It requires, first and foremost, a commander in chief willing to use that military superiority to its fullest extent, to strike relentless and ruthlessly and quickly with the sure knowledge that only the rapid, overwhelming, unremitting destruction of the enemy can minimize casualties and suffering.
Yet we have a president, who, with all of the deadly dangers facing us around the world, is concerned, first and foremost, with petty domestic issues and with consolidating socialist control of America. This is a man full of rhetoric and devoid of insight, experience and action. This is a man whose actual–as opposed to official–advisors are, to a man and woman, marxist, Chicago political machine thugs, utterly devoid of international experience. This is a man whose new foreign policy advocates making America strong abroad by making it strong at home, and wants to strengthen law enforcement before and above the military for military attacks on America are merely a law enforcement problem. These are people who not only fail to learn from history, they fail to even think about it.
Obama thinks America’s returning veterans are a greater threat than terrorists, thinks words and good intentions suffice on the international stage, and actually believes his own messianic press. Rather than honor our honored dead at Arlington Nation Cemetery on Memorial Day, he takes a vacation in Chicago. He throws lavish, outrageously expensive parties and demands command performances, honoring, instead of our military heroes, one of the surviving Beatles. Weakness does indeed invite war. It would be hard, absent Jimmy Carter, to imagine a weaker US President. In fact, before he’s done, Obama will likely make Jimmy Carter look like a veritable lion of foreign policy and military wisdom and resolve.
Pity the poor US troops in the DMZ. Every one of them must know that when the Norks attack, they’ll be little more than cannon fodder and Obama will not do what is necessary even remotely quickly enough to protect their lives or to reinforce their ability to fight. All of these troops know that they are a trip wire, but with Obama in the White House they surely must know they have no chance if the worst comes to pass.
But hey. If Obama can only get his cap and trade wishes and make our energy prices “necessarily skyrocket” as he promised during the campaign, what an accomplishment! What’s a mere war in Korea or the Middle East compared to that? Oh yes, he will remake America, if there is anything left before he is run out of office.
I suspect that Obama might get lucky in foreign policy and avoid immediate responsibility for much of what he is now facilitating.
I don’t believe that N. K. will do anything really provocative, at least toward the US, without Chinese prior approval. China is definitely increasing its military’s aggressiveness but I don’t think they’re ready for confrontation with the US, yet.
Once they’ve established a base in the M.E. which they are actively pursuing, and have gradually intimidated US politicians into requiring our naval forces to acquiesce when confronted, then I think they might give their proxy N.K. permission to attack and invade S.K. I just see war, at this time, as premature. Of course nations have acted prematurely before and no doubt will again. But the Chinese take the long-view and are extraordinarily patient.
Iran is going to get the bomb on Obama’s watch, he’ll blame Bush and if he’s lucky (and we’re not), the Iranians won’t prematurely seize the Strait of Hormuz, which would trigger immediate confrontation.
But instead use their newly acquired prestige to create an Iranian led alliance seeking to reconstitute their Islamic Caliphate. Libya, Sudan, Turkey, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan would find such an alliance powerfully compelling, if properly ‘sold’ by Iran.
China is facilitating Pakistan’s pursuit of thermonuclear bombs, a big step up in destructiveness over their present capabilities.
Russia is facilitating the spread of nuclear proliferation and by the end of Obama’s term both Venezuela and Brazil may have nuclear programs well into development of nuclear technology.
If Obama is lucky, he’ll leave the world in far worse shape than at the start of his term and retain deniability as to his lack of action in addressing these problems. Just as Chamberlain and the pacifists never were held fully accountable for the failure to confront Hitler before it was too late.
Right on Mc”D.”
Obama has nursed strongly on the teat of postmodernism. Any Western nation that uses power cannot be supported. North Korea is a victim of and a product of Western departments of state and big companies. Obama wanted to help the poor, the underprivileged, and the oppressed. Unfortunately, as his more adult mind and narcissism took over, they didn’t displace the college sophmore.
You called it right. And although nothing could more enhance Obama’s prestige and save his ratings than good strong action on the national stage, he won’t be able to do it.
Obama is a Little Lord Fauntleroy whose idealism will, in a plot reverse, teach us nothing and quite possibly spoil the earldom.
sarcasm>If they draft ya, that’s a job, right?
To correct a point of history, the NKoreans did NOT overwhelm us with human wave assaults. Their initial thrust rolled back a very weak American force. Once we regrouped we pushed them to the Yalu River.
Secondly, the Chinese human wave rolled up the UN forces and cut off American forces who were holding, e.g. the USMC at Chosin. U.S. positions were untenable and in the case of the Marines they attacked south east to the sea.
A stalemate ensued, in part because everything above the Yalu was off limits. Kind of like Viet Nam where we chose to fight with one hand.
But, to my real point. There is simply no reason, and in my opinion has not been one for decades, why the SKoreans cannot fight their own battle against the North. They have the advantage in population, and in wealth/technology. North Korea has a larger army in terms of manpower and artillery; mainly because the SKoreans have learned to depend on the U.S. instead of providing for themselves. This will continue as long as we go along.
The U.S. should back South Korea diplomatically, and provide insurance against Chinese adventurism, but the Koreans need to settle their own problems.
I don’t know if Artfldger ever says anything worthwhile or not. I quit reading his ridiculously excessive posts some time ago. I don’t know why he doesn’t get his own site.
mikemcdaniel wrote:”In fact, before he’s done, Obama will likely make Jimmy Carter look like a veritable lion of foreign policy and military wisdom and resolve.”
Mike why do you think Obmessiah has not passed that point long ago? Jimmy Carter made human rights a corner stone of his foreign policy. Obama made not interfering with tyranny a hallmark of his.
I am still amazed that someone so obviously unqualified to hold public office was ever considered let alone elected to the presidency. I still remember Prime Minister Howard warning against Obama’s weakness and stupidity long before he was even he got to the convention.
I’ll speak up for Artfldgr. Yeah, he sometimes quacks at considerable length, but there’s a lot of useful information in that stream of consciousness. I’ve learned a lot by following up his links, reading suggestions, and even his oblique references. So cut the brother some slack!
I’m with Bob. Obama was a blur as he blew past Carterville a long time ago. I’d prefer Jimmah as President now, and I didn’t think that thought would ever cross my mind.
It’s a monument to the power of the Reds’ propaganda, and their organs (in every sense) of such, the MSM. Terrorist buddies? No problem. Communist antecedents? No problem. (Quite the contrary, on both counts.) No idea what he’s doing? No problem. No experience? No problem.
In any normal candidate — i.e., one not backed by the Reds — any one of these considerations would have been fatal to his candidacy.
We really need to clean house in the media. That’s where the infection has come from, and where it needs to be combatted.
“Why has wishful thinking increasingly replaced common sense, to our detriment?”
Another confirmation of the madness of crowds.
Dear Bob From Virginia:
Why don’t I think Obama has not already surpassed the fecklessness of Jimmy Carter? Potential. I agree with you in all ways but one. Obama has shown himself to be weak, indecisive, narcissistic, arrogant, ignorant of history, strategy, even of rational political tactics. But all of this was clearly on display long before he was elected for those willing to spend a bit of time in research and brief contemplation. After all, he was, by far, the most liberal member of Congress and counted as his closest friends and mentors (before he chucked them unceremoniously under the campaign bus) various communists, terrorists, race hustlers and racial supremacists, Chicago machine thugs, etc. He was famous for being famous and had no actual accomplishments–none–to which he or anyone could point other than that he had been elected to an office lower than the office he was currently pursuing.
Since election he has shown himself to be a marxist true believer, ignoring all normal, rational political calculations of the kind that have heretofore kept any single politician from bringing America to the brink of ruin. His behavior would give the French aristocrats beheaded during their revolution a bad name. Yet, the verdict of history, which will be heavily influenced by the actions of America’s enemies, has yet to see it’s first marker. He has a substantial current advantage in a media that has actually called him a God and that will do virtually anything to protect him from himself and rational, decent Americans.
It is finally, the actions of America’s enemies, which will be dictated to large degree by Obama’s manifold and innumerable shortcomings, that will determine his place in history. That and his sure to be foolish and childish responses to the international crises his own weakness will cause that will cement his place below Jimmy Carter in a way that even his academic and journalist worshipers cannot ignore or deny. But for the moment, it’s all potential. He may surprise us, and we may well pray fervently that he does, but there is little reason to expect such miracles.
Roh! Roh! Strap on the crash helmet kiddies.
http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
[For a light hearted take on our present peril]
The North’s attack on the South’s warship Cheonan in South Korean waters ….
I don’t think anyone actually knows that for sure.
I spent 1992 patrolling the DMZ. I was stationed at CP Greaves, inside the Joint Security Area “North of the River”
Currahee! (a few will know what that’s about….)
The ROKs (S. Koreans) habitually tested the Nork defenses, frequently crossing the Military Demarcation Line into the N. Security Area. Occasionally they got shot.
A ROKA helicopter was shot down, and the crew killed, in “my” sector of the DMZ: After investigations, UNCMAC ruled it a “righteous shoot”.
I can fully imagine that the ROKs were playing a game of “nanny-nanny boo-boo” and the NorKs shot them with a torpedo. The NorKs are exquisitely aware of their border demarcations and boundaries along the DMZ (including the sea boundaries).
I cannot blame China for its reticence in supporting ROK and US claims: it could be entirely true that NK killed the ship, but it was ever so slightly in NK waters. We may actually never know….
(How f’in stupid are our diplomats, and Hillary, for going out on a limb like this when it may very well be a legal (under the UNCMAC rules) kill!)
It is the kabuki theater of warfare; with deadly consequences.
a literal blast from the past, the decision to resume belting out propaganda across the demilitarised zone…
Lulled me to sleep every night.
If I am ever outside in the morning when someone is playing muffled talk radio–where I can’t quite make out the words; I’m instantly back there….
Occam I think LAG and you together have a whole argument. I cannot attribute Obama’s election to direct media propaganda, but more to the madness of crowds. The media has been trying to elect Democrat candidates since at least 1960 with very limited success. But 2008 was genuine insanity for the entire country. Even with media help Obama’s faults were glaring and unavoidable. I remember seeing the warm reception he received a Jewish group after his anti-Israel credentials were well-known. I cannot think of a rational explanation for such a denial of reality other that for some reason the public wanted to be fooled. The election has been compared to an American Idol vote, it was certainly the act of a silly immature electorate. I am reminded of the child who wants a toy gun even though he knows it could harm him. The media tried to promote a false image, and a band wagon effect; assuring the naive that it was alright to vote for an apparent creep. Even McCain reassured an audience that they had nothing to fear from an Obama presidency. But we here and many others saw through the hype, and there was nothing to keep others from doing the same. Frankly I do not even think the explanation of a prefect storm of unpopular incumbent, economic crisis, incompetent Republican candidates, and least of all media support will be able to explain the election of such an obviously unsuitable person.
I read a lot of classical history and I was often shocked at the unexplainable poor decisions of democratic governments. Those ancient ghosts are probably shaking their heads in disbelief at the antics of the 2008 electorate.
BTW I doubt the media will ever desert Obama. It would risk offending friends and superiors in their upper west side subculture. The social and economic disadvantages of disloyalty are too great, ask Bernard Goldberg. Lackeys in all but name.
“”I cannot attribute Obama’s election to direct media propaganda, but more to the madness of crowds.””
Bob from Virginia
But the crowd’s madness has a cause, which WAS media propoganda. Absent the bogus information campaign of media in the 2008 election trying to shape our national leadership, neither Obama NOR McCain would have been viable candidates for that election. As we see now in the polling on major issues, they both were, and still are, grossly out of touch with the pulse of the folk.
Some of the crowd wants to stay mad. But that is only possible if there are no consequences. Quoting (or paraphrasing) William Blake, “If fool would persist in his folly, he would become wise.” I think there are about to be consequences. Some follies are being pursued to their logical conclusions.
SteveH, I will still attribute the rise of the Obami to some other source other than the media. They tried this too many other times in the past and failed. They spread the word, but they could not make people believe. A small part of the answer must be, as pointed out here, that a lot of people who had no business voting did vote for the sexy new guy. Nonetheless that cannot explain why someone who should have been a fringe candidate got beyond the Iowa caucus. I suspect bandwagon appeal and protest vote helped. Nonetheless the parts still do not seem to add up to the whole.
Oldflyer, don’t know why he doesn’t get his own site.
I don’t know why you think its ok for you to come into someone else’s place and in impolitic manner, attempt to tell the guests at the party that another guest should leave because you have come to judgment, and such strong judgment to force you to open your mouth and passively affect others with a poison tongue. Or am I to believe that you believe yourself so impotent that what you say has no effect? (or that you talk for no other reason but to hear your own voice?)
I ask, by what right does a stranger entering the home of another get to send their invited guests for the door by whispering in passing to other guests of the offensive crime of too many words to meet your puerile pleasure.
You have not listened to his discussions, participated with them, and learned what they say, invalidated any point, or even have done the respectful justice of entertaining his points for reason of discussion, debate, and refutation in honesty and honor.
No… what you have decided to do, like others who have come before you, is deny its content and instead attack its length as if length is a determination of value.
If that were so, and such is your belief, the most valuable thing you could say would be nothing
And gentle sir, I would agree that for you, that would be the most valuable thing you could do for your countrymen, self, and family.
🙂
A theory on why Obama got elected and retains as much support as he does.
Crowd psychology only focuses the appeal Obama has to those who have no spiritual or metaphysical input in their life except through politics or some new age crap. The cause is spiritual and
what, I propose, we are seeing, with regards to the barnacle like clinging to Obama, is worship. People do not give up their gods easily.
Art, I would be very disappointed if you stopped blogging here; however, the comment about “stream of consciousness” was true. Maybe you’re not capable of summarizing, kind of like a “Rain Man” thing. If you shut off the stream, you shut off the revelations. No matter. When I read your comments, there’s real nuggets, info, facts, references and cites in there.
> However, at least Bush gave the appearance of some toughness, which might have acted as a tiny bit of deterrent
The thing you have to understand is that China is the one pulling NoKo’s strings to heel.
If they want NoKo to behave, it will do so, as KJI knows he leads only at their forebearance. They get tired of the little gargoyle he’s gone and the next puppet leader will step up to bat.
Bush’s aggression made it clear that America wasn’t going to put up with crap from ANYONE, and we demonstrated that we had the most powerful militaryin the world, that manpower would most definitely have its limits. And one thing China has never liked the idea of it’s a big powerful army on its borders.
So when Bush showed that he was willing to rein in NoKo if China refused to do so, they reined him in.
The OWaffle is clearly not capable of any such determination. So they’re letting his reins loose to f*** with Western nations, including their long-time enemy, Japan.
Do not underestimate what Bush brought to the table here. The reason NoKo behaved for the last 10 years was because of him and his admin, no other reason.
We learned to be wrong together was better than to be right alone
I don’t agree…
I would rather stand up and be torn apart by the furies than debase myself to the irrelevancy of fantasy as my belief system, accept convenience and circumstance as my modifier of moral action, while being advised by pragmatic expediency (without regard to anything but myself).
Your mileage may vary
and thanks occam and curtis..
and your right curtis, i cant summarize or put things together that way. divergent thinking means that every concept leads to thousands of others…. great for inventing and turning ideas all around, hard to get things ordered for others who want ideas to be the way they think, and converge.
if you can get passed it, you will find that its information rich, and idea rich, and more than makes up in content what it loses in composition.
yes great writers can do both. but i never ever claimed that i was a good writer, its not automatic, and not having gone through academia, the side effect of a couple of decades coaching as to how to do that, was never given to me.
those who do social engineering know what their games do to the top performers of such… which is why their suicide rate is so high, their success rate is very low if not in a contrived place, and social violence whether physical or mental is a constant from others.
while they say i dont have aspergers, i ahve discussed more than once here having autistic ‘skills’ despite not being autistic.
so yes… the problme comes from having rain man abilities… that was VERY astute of you…
your brain is paring down information, mine offers me everything in huge quantity.
think of it this way… if you think my writing is information dense, very interconnected, have obscure relationships and wide reference… remember thats a linear expression of what in my head is a 4D hyper linked whole in which all these cross links, ideas, and relationships exist at one time.
i would hope that someone like occam would notice if i have improved from a long time ago..
expat helped give me insight into how others exprience it, and without ego, it was very welcome as i can use it to refine and try.
funny… but when i was young, and maslow was very popular, the shrinks that would study me because i was not only a eidetic poodle, but can create art as well, would constantly point out maslow seminal book chapters 11 and 12…
most who take up the moniker do so because of their deep desire to be what they are not, and be regarded by others as what they are not, without having to invest in actually being it
i am lucky enough to own a copy of that book, given to me when i was young by a young researcher working on her doctorate thesis (me).
thanks for the kind words curtis… 🙂
Sigh. It’s not the content of your comments Artflgdr which is denied, nor is it being asserted that their interminable length is a determination of your comments intrinsic value.
Rather it is the frequently rambling, confusing, disjointed, stream-of-consciousness presentation of your comments which is being criticized. What you in effect do with such a presentation is demand that the reader invest an inordinate amount of time, prior to determining the worth and relevance of your comments, for the reader.
Were you merely to say, this is what I believe and here’s why and, here are the links to the evidence that supports my view, you would I imagine, have far more success. But that leaves it up to the reader to decide if your comment is of enough interest (to them) to invest more time in exploring your explanatory and evidential links.
Instead you treat your reader as a child, needing to be carefully led along a path of your choosing, dropping links here and there for the reader to explore, before returning to your missive, to be led to the next link, all the while using incomplete sentences in a stream-of-consciousness presentation that leaves your reader puzzled as to where your going. In effect, ‘blindfolded’ and clinging to your hand.
You clearly invest a lot of time in developing your viewpoint and no doubt there is ‘gold’ in the “streambed” of your consciousness, equally clear is that your self-esteem is emotionally invested in identification with that work.
Ironically, it’s not your worth or the worth of your work that is disputed. Merely your insistence upon ‘blindfolding us, so that we must cling to your hand as you lead us down the path of enlightenment.
If you wish companionship, there are many who might welcome that walk but if it’s ‘dependent children’ looking up at you in adoration, you’ll find little satisfaction among adults.
You might consider that when the common reaction to someone reading many of your comments is a metaphorical scratching of their head and a “huh?” upon their lips…further editing and work is required upon your part. Rather than assuming that a lack of intellectual capacity is responsible for the failure of others to appreciate your treatise.
Instead, when someone points out to you the truth; that a lengthy comment usually requires its own post with links, footnotes and an organized, coherent presentation… Logically, best done on your own site, your reaction is one of outraged offense and a deflection of the issue by claiming that the worth of your comment is being doubted.
It’s not the worth of your comments that’s being dismissed, again it’s the form of your presentation of your views with your implicit assumption that wandering over the landscape, dropping tidbits upon the path for our edification isn’t tedious, somewhat rude and highly presumptuous behavior.
That is why many of us don’t read your lengthy comments, despite our awareness that we may well be passing by valuable information.
Though we are consoled by the fact that you are not the only fount of wisdom available to us.
If “brevity be the soul of whit”, a coherent, concise presentation is the heart of education.
Now, do you want to share your work on its own merits or must we stroke your ego as the price of admission?
Oops, darn tags. The bolding was unintentional in length.
There is a series of interesting essays on North Korea at The New Ledger. I think they’re titled “Overthrowing Kim”.
Geoffrey of Britain /
“The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about”
YOU and others don’t get that you have no right to make ANY demands on me to meet your idea of writing style or to make more effort. [Ever read Gurdjieff I guess not, he didn’t write for you either]
Don’t you get that that is the very heart of freedom sir? To not be subjected to the force and will of others to comply to an arbitrary standard they made up for themselves?
Sometimes you high minded freedom fighters tend to wear despotic clothes more than the fruit bats you’re commenting on.
Now, do you want to share your work on its own merits or must we stroke your ego as the price of admission?
Let me see if you understand what you’re actually saying to someone, and hopefully, you can maybe understand how you feel (being bullied).
I personally do not think its ego stroking for people to hold their tongue on saying not nice things, and that the withdrawal of abuse and negative commentary is not ego stroking.
how’s this.. I decide to focus on some part of you that you can’t change. You’re a cripple, you talk funny because your deaf, your mute, have palsy, your deformed, you’re just not what I want you to be in some way that I think you should be in order to deserve the right for me to not say things to you, and that for me to stop, would be ego stroking. So in essence you have to beat on someone to make sure they don’t get to big in their britches for you and perhaps be what they want to be, and not what you want them to be.
And then I decide to comment on you. Hey! Geoffrey stutters… why should we listen to Geoffrey the stutterer… lets make jokes about Geoffrey the stutterer… hey stutterer, if you want to be a part of our group and have us listen to you, then go out and get a cure and then come back and we might start trying!!!
Why do you stutter Geoffrey? Geoffrey you know if you don’t stutter people will magically like you (I tempt you with a prize I can’t deliver).
I never ever listen to what a stutterer like Geoffrey says, I have to concentrate too hard and its wrong for him to DEMAND that I concentrate on what he says… and I think that all you people should treat Geoffrey the way I do, and maybe just maybe we can make him miserable enough, feel the pain enough, and all that, to finally become someone we might want to see if we might like.
[get the feeling that I have met a lot of Geoffrey’s in my life?]
If he wants to be listened to by the likes of us, and get the big huge rewards we are offering him!!! oh, the benefits are enumerable. Fame, fortune, maybe I Geoffrey might even read a comment he makes and say something trite like Paris Hilton and declare his words cool or not.
I mean I just don’t understand why he doesn’t do all that.
Doesn’t he really understand how wonderful and important we are and now much more important our time is than his time, and how he should bow to us to be approved so tha we will read the writings we force him to write, rather than read what he wants to say the way he wants to say it. How dare he!
I have met a lot of parasitical termites in my life, they starve playing their games
Here is your missive in a nutshell – and maybe if you get it, you might get that I am an original individual who knows all this and can do all I do, precisely because I don’t fall victim to the bullshit arguments of people who really offer me nothing in exchange for something.
either your like us or what we want you to be, or we will abuse and harangue you until you leave, get tired, become depressed, or whatever we can do to you to get you to comply with our wishes. Be a part of the herd and comply with us so we don’t have to expend effort, or go, and we will find some other sucker who will cater to us for nothing (so there). And if you want to be treated nicely, respectfully, with no snide comments bout what you cant change, we will under no circumstances stroke your ego by removing the abuse, until you become what we want you to be. face it, we don’t like you, and when you become someone else, then maybe we will see if we like you
You have no right to try to mold me to some person you enjoy better for the reason that its easier for you to be entertained!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ESPECIALLY when all you and others offer is the FALSE promise or withholding your abuse, negative, commentary, and generally collectivist anger.
You’re no freaking different than the thug who wants a store to pay him for not breaking the windows.
Don’t think so, well then look at your language!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what you in effect do with such a presentation is demand that the reader…
Are you fng bonkers? I DEMAND of you by how I write?
Oh… and my reward for such “demands” is to be abused and have comments in the third party with the idea of manipulating others to also collectively act…
Ever stand there as someone tells someone else something bad or negative about you (who doesn’t know you, read you, etc), as if your not there? You may not want to read me, but do you realize your negative comments denies others who may like to read me from taking a chance? That if Occam (and others who do enjoy) listened to people like you, he would never have learned what he learned by reading and checking out things.
Which is the point…
Your sullying me to others because YOU don’t like me is not a public service
Refraining from sullying me because of your own opinion, is not ego stroking
Telling me that you will no longer sully me if I comply with your critical desires amounts to being a gatekeeper for the rest of the people while never being appointed by them to filter what they can partake in.
oh.. and lets take the second half, that’s a beauty too
What you in effect do with such a presentation is demand that the reader invest an inordinate amount of time, prior to determining the worth and relevance of your comments, for the reader.
So let me see if i get this right…
You wont read me until your positively sure by my writing style that I am worthy of your precious time. And that you think that because everyone is like you, your commentary that they read before reading me, is a social service making sure that others don’t waste their time and expend effort to understand something that you find you can’t muster the effort or will to.
So if you buy a book too hard for you, or in a style you don’t like, you think that the author is demanding things of you?
If you buy a book and the author is rambling and you don’t like him the way some others do, that you have to comment so as to warn others not to waste their time?
Want to know what? I agree… you shouldn’t have to pay for the writing you don’t like.
So in the interest of fairness, honesty and good will. I am offering you a credit, you can get your money back and spend your money and buy someone elses words and in that way, put your vote into the COMMERCIAL market of entertainment writing.
What? You didn’t pay anything? The credit is meaningless?
So is your point, even if you don’t get it, I am sure many others just did.
You didn’t pay, and you can’t grant me others will like me if I write to your ideals. Can you?
So all your really offering me in exchange if I write better, work harder, take more time, is that someone who belittles, critiques what they don’t read, advertises to others who they should or shouldn’t listen or try to read, might read me.
And that’s a very big might…
Since you are assuming that if I construct the writing better, throw out salient points to make it short, and do all those neat and proper things, the content which you don’t understand will become understandable, and you will be filled with the desire to read my posts and then say nice things.
You realize that I am not writing for narcissistic pleasure, right?
You realize that I am writing in a bad time in history to help others not be ignorant, right?
You realize that if it wastn like that, and that wasn’t happening, I would not be commenting on any of this, as I would be very happy knowing, and leaving you in the complete dark..
You realize that given what’s coming, my efforts come at a cost I know I will pay very dearly for if they win and those costs are such that if I leave you in the dark, I have much better odds?
You realize that without me posting that stuff, a very many people would never really know the facts?
I am sorry you feel that my writing makes demands of you
If it does, then that’s the price to pay for the knowledge inside that.
You ended with
If “brevity be the soul of whit”, a coherent, concise presentation is the heart of education.
Fine… then I will riposte.
First of all, you mean wit, not whit…
the keen perception and cleverly apt expression of those connections between ideas that awaken amusement and pleasure.
Note that I don’t give a whit about wit since wit doesn’t teach a whit about anything! [I am sorry if this is makng demands of you]
Parry
I see your Shakespeare quote on wit, and raise you:
“Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit.”
I think though that you don’t like wit when its directed at you
And since I see wit as an act of abuse (something that you obviously have problems with when thinking removing abuse is ego stroking)
“Good nature is more agreeable in conversation than wit, and gives a certain air to the countenance which is more amiable than beauty”
So your advice I will be liked better for: “Wit is educated insolence.” Aristotle
Personally I don’t use wit as I can bite harder than most and while entertaining for those to watch the person get beat up, I don’t entertain that way.
Most of our pocket wisdom is conceived for the use of mediocre people, to discourage them from ambitious attempts, and generally console them in their mediocrity.
I believed better of everyone…
And riposte
Intellectual freedom is the right of every individual to both seek and receive information from all points of view without restriction. It provides for free access of all expressions of ideas through which any and all sides of a question, cause or movement may be explored. // Intellectual freedom is the basis of our democratic system. We expect our people to be self-governors. But to do so responsibly, our citizenry must be well informed.
Parry
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.
And thrust
It is a truth, however sad and strange, that we cannot give what we have not got, and cannot teach to other people what we do not know ourselves.
Touché!
To educate a man is to unfit him to be a slave!
Frederick Douglas
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” Martin Luther king
And my last point
“No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit.” Ansel Adams…
I am what i yam and thats all that i yam – popeye
All oldflyer said was,
“I don’t know if Artfldger ever says anything worthwhile or not. I quit reading his ridiculously excessive posts some time ago. I don’t know why he doesn’t get his own site.”
Of the three sentences above, the first is an admission of being uninformed. The last is a rhetorical question. Only his characterization of your comments as “ridiculously excessive” could you take umbrage at. Yet you turned two words into an attack upon your worth and the value of your comments.
I, on the other hand tried to explain why the excessive length of your comments was off-putting, which has less to do with the length and far more to do with the rambling presentation.
FYI, I hadn’t read your prior reply to Curtis,“your right curtis, i cant summarize or put things together that way. divergent thinking means that every concept leads to thousands of others…hard to get things ordered for others who want ideas to be the way they think, and converge.
… its not automatic, and not having gone through academia, the side effect of a couple of decades coaching as to how to do that, was never given to me.”
I accept that it is difficult for you but doubt your expressed inability to learn how. As you occasionally do provide comments that are relatively concise.
I’ll be brief in my response to your 2,045 word reply and ‘riposte’. (I used microsoft’s word check)
I make NO demands upon you to meet any imagined idea of writing style, frankly, I could care less. I simply pointed out to you, your lack of coherence.
And, I only did that in response to your attack upon Oldflyer, which tangentially included reference to anyone else who had previously advanced the same view.
Regardless of what you might think, pointing out the necessity for logic in exposition to communicate effectively is not an ‘arbitrary standard’ “made up for themselves”.
I’ve never questioned your originality, just your clarity in communicating.
Contrary to your assertion, I have no desire to ‘mold’ you nor have I been abusive, needlessly negative, or been part of expressed ‘collectivist’ anger at you.
Nor was I ‘warning others of you’, ‘lacking in will or effort’ or unable to comprehend your brilliant insights.
But spouting such nonsense obviously brings you comfort.
So, I shan’t offer constructive criticism in the future, since it’s obviously wasted effort.
We’re all our own worst enemy Artfldgr and as long as you continue to equate constructive criticism with personal attack, you will exemplify that truism…
hey G, ever think that after a lifetime of people telling me that if i was a better X i would have everything i wanted, you would think that maybe, just maybe i would if i could…
no… the one common thing in all these comments over two years is that my slate can be rewritten at will, and i am just being difficult to annoy you and everyone else.
so busy thinking as to what you want, you cant get how much your tormenting someone that cant meet your standard. and so has to suffer, there is no other choice as you and others are not offering any.
ever think that complicated turns of phrase and things are common in what i read, and that i don’t find such things convoluted?
or that i recurse a lot and can keep track of lots of sub recursions and such, and i don’t have a problem following it?
that i can use vague labels, like this or that, and can keep all those implied values not having a problem with them?
so i cant figure out what i am doing wrong. and that to write the way you are saying.
you are telling me to make it clear, and it is clear.. i dont have a problem understanding it when i read it or when others write that way (unless they write that way to bs people that they are saying something when they arent)
ever show me an example, and a rewrite of how it should be?
when you teach do you berate them for being wrong, and keep berating them telling them to be right but not illustrating anything?
no, of course not.. beat on someone enough and htey get it, or else they ahve to get used to being told over and over and over.
i cant change the way i think what i know. and all that. i cant change how i express it. i come from an arts and sciences family and to do so is to change me and who i am and how i express it. (guess you quit before the ansel adams quote)
so what does it all amount to your asking me to change what i cant change?
I already know all this stuff, and more, and in lots of areas… and history was one of my worst subjects.
you should try me on other things.
but you win.
i cant change, and my presence is too disturbing as i cant be accepted for what and who and how i am and what i bring the way i bring it.
i would have loved to learn to write better, then maybe instead of what i do, i can be a famous philosopher. maybe even the next cicero…
i write more like gurdjief… ever read him?
“A man can only attain knowledge with the help of those who possess it. This must be understood from the very beginning. One must learn from him who knows.”
but no.. i am way too obstinate, and have too much fun being disliked, critiqued, commented on, ignored while being commented on, and tons of other things…
after a few years, i now have a thin skin
and you actually didnt understand what i said.
Contrary to your assertion, I have no desire to ‘mold’ you nor have I been abusive, needlessly negative, or been part of expressed ‘collectivist’ anger at you.
really? then you have never been on the other side of a lifetime of peopel who saw you as the clay and project of the times.
your commentary certainly was not supportive of who i am now and that who i am is just fine, even if i dont write the way people find easy or pleasurable.
you DO have a desire, because those that dont, do not bother to write off subject and tell me i am making demands of them by writing a way they dont get.
and as far as warning.. you ARE… it doesnt matter what your PURPOSE is… it matters what the results are… what happens when strangers read those lines?
that as you noted, others dont wnat to waste their time. but causationally you dont relize that the reason its not polite to say such things is that those that dont know the person, their writings and such have now formed their first impression by your comments.
ever avoid someone due to rumor to find out that the rumor was wrong and they were not that way (to you) at all?
i was writing and reading at 13th grade level when i was 7… i am nearly half a century on. i like complicated phraseology and difficult recursion.
i do not wish to create a permanent record of my commentary so my bosses at liberal university can put me on the food line in unemployment. or state officials and others who i photograph might decide that i dont thik right. or a future contract i cant get because some wingnut decides that my liking merit is wrong.
ever think that there are good reasons that a person doesnt do what you do? ever think that a man that knows so much MIGHT just MIGHT be making choices out of that greater pool of knowlege and experience.
Nor was I ‘warning others of you’, ‘lacking in will or effort’ or unable to comprehend your brilliant insights.
But spouting such nonsense obviously brings you comfort.
if you cant understand the simple truth in reality that bad comments, and such heard by others before they meet a person, or their works, IS warning people and giving others a first impression of someone before they meet the actual person.
when people come out of a movie while your waiting on line, and you over hear them tell their friend how it sucked and all that. your not influenced?
we are in public, and so such commentary IS a warning… you dont have to precede it and post after it warning warning… please, your not that dense…
you never noticed that those who like to make social coalitions tend to look to build from playing on such comments to get a group together. (we had such a problem a while back when someone sought to do just that)
i am sorry, but if you cant see beyond the personal and get the empirical, then maybe its not just my writing.
anyway
ya dont have to worry much about it.
you win..
i cant change how i write (obviously)
and you cant take how i write
and in general, people like me dont like to make others uncomfortable and such… (read maslow)..
i have too much on my plate anway
and discussing facts that never existed, or ignoring others that do, just isnt debate… its just dead end.. might as well just sit aorund and make up stuff for all that gigo gives you… (and if you dont know its gigo, i guess that isnt my concern anymore, it certainly isnt one of yours)
thanks for the effort.
i am obviously too stupid and obstinate to change for you and to improve… and then collect the fruits of life in my elder years.
my talents run to music and mathematics, and art and sciences… not writing for entertainment.
We’re all our own worst enemy Artfldgr and as long as you continue to equate constructive criticism with personal attack, you will exemplify that truism…
and as long as you think its constructive to not give examples and teach and think its constructive to keep saying the same thing over that is so nasty and amounts to “you should be someone else”, your teaching will not teach…
and your not going to realize that what your giving is abuse and control masquerading as constructive criticism.
i learned a long time ago how that game is played, how one can be so nasty as to say someone should be someone else without saying it, then hide that its all for them that your hurting them is to help them and and they should appreciate it.
but in essence, there was nothing operative i could use in what you said. did you qiuote a paragraph for me? illustrate your point? show where i dont do it? and where i did?
its that lack that makes the prior abuse.
and if you dont get that, well then maybe you dont get why such doesnt work.
ever have a woman play the you know what you did wrong and i dont have to tell you game?
your playing a variant…
Perhaps the South Koreans learned from the Israelis’ experience with Gaza: letting your people get killed only encourages more violence, but giving your enemy a good spanking deters them.
Gee, looks like thousands of years of military history were right after all.
One way it might end is that a war breaks out, the US stands by its treaty obligation to S. Korea, and a few days of hell ensue. Then China puts its foot down, telling both sides to stop it NOW! They do own us, after all.
This would be an ironic replay of the Suez Crisis when Ike told the British and French to take their armies and go home, a very public demonstration that their day was over. China, then, becomes the maker and keeper of the peace in the region, having shown the US to be irrelevant. Bear in mind, too, that all this could be accomplished very cheaply. It’s just a matter of a phone call to Obama and other peoples’ blood. Although no longer useful to China, N. Korea would likely continue its dismal existence because closing it down isn’t worth the trouble. As for Obama, while the US forces withdraw from the Western Pacific, leaving Japan, S. Korea and Taiwan to make what deals they can with Beijing, he’ll be permitted to take a few bows on the world’s stage for his wise and prudent statesmanship. Such a welcome change from that horrid cowboy Bush!