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Notes from another changer — 47 Comments

  1. My friends.. I had a lunch room conversation again the other day.

    People I work with that are very technical and smart … YET…

    They believe the only people responsible for the mortgage crisis was greedy wall street..

    I’m exasperated

    I hammered home the message about personal responsibility. I refinanced in 2004 and Countrywide tried to sell me an interest only loan. I said “NO“.

    In a system of capitalism it is WE who choose who gets what resources – NOT SOME CENTRAL PLANNER.

    We vote with our votes and choose with our pocketbooks.

    And we chose this mortgage crisis with our votes and our money.

    Canada has had no banks fail because they have a system in place that makes it impossible for a home owner just to walk away. Short sale? Yes you can but you still OWE the bank for the remainder that you couldn’t sell it for.

    In the U.S? We have zero personal responsibility.

    We blame everyone else.

    We need to grow up!!

    We are collectively doing this to ourselves and we should shun people who are irresponsible. Whether they are neighbors, friends, politicians, etc.

    We shouldn’t vote for them, do business with them, talk to them, etc.

  2. Wow. THAT person ought to run for office. He or she is definitely one of the grownups — and there aren’t anywhere near enough of them.

  3. And the question came up – what do people do who are unemployed in Canada? Do they still owe the bank?

    Yes.

    But let me make a point. People in the U.S. like my own girlfriend and her boss and her friends didn’t lose their job.

    They still make their good income (at high level positions). They walk away from their homes because the only thing affected is their credit score.

    They feel they were ripped off !!! They were trying to get more house than they could afford !!!

  4. Ouch. I moved out of Michigan ten years or so ago, but I still keep in touch with my relatives back there, and from what they tell me, sayoung is absolutely correct. It’s pretty grim in Michigan and has been for a while. My dad says he doesn’t see any hope of Michigan coming back within his lifetime. I hope he’s wrong, but I fear he’s correct.

  5. I left Michigan 20 years ago and no, it’s not coming back. It’s competitive advantage from years ago was based on water access for shipping, central location for locus of US/Canada population, and the good luck that Henry Ford was born there. Now the auto industry is a shell of itself and the jobs are either moving south or globalized, the country has moved south and west with advent of air conditioning, the factories are old and sit on polluted land, and the workforce is old and rigid in thinking. No one who was investing his or her own money would bring manufacturing back there (note I say own money, as politicians would love to spend other peoples’ money), and other types of jobs will go where the people — and better weather is located.

    It’s a shame. The weather is grey in winter but otherwise it is a beautiful state with 1000s of miles of shoreline. I wish things were different but I do not see much long term luck there. If anyone reading this were to drive through detroit neighborhoods and see the utter lack of people, of housing stock at all, much less worth saving, you would know that detroit is doomed and will be a long term drain on that state.

  6. I am an adult,speak to me as an adult, do not whine and point a finger of blame at a minority party for your own failure. ADULTS admit when they have made a mistake, it is becoming clear to me who the irresponsible children are who go on a crazy,who cares spending spree and then become irritated when the people aren’t appreciative of their irresponsibility, and it is apparent who the adults are who are standing up screaming NO! STOP!YOU IDIOTS.

    Should be the sentiments of anyone who voted for any Dem in the last 30 years.

    Anyone who voted for Obama owes America an apology.

    Anyone who still supports him is on the other side in a long cold civil war.

  7. A couple of comments about unions… An ex-BF of mine (Rep) had a brother in a union. He would look at the political literature that they’d send to his house and was appalled at the number of lies contained. And he said lies, not spin.

    He spent a lot of time trying to counter the untruths with his bro and his bro’s friends.

    Also – Just last month, 2 of the laborer unions (road construction) went on strike in my state (IL). Well, I don’t know if it was the laborers or the operators, but one of them. Seems like they ALL don’t realize that they’re part of the problem.

    Of course, on a non-union tangent, the Highland Park (wealthy area) Park District was paying one or two people over 400K. Their board came out and said they were worth it. I’m sure the board will be replaced.

    There’s a lot of rot out there.

  8. If anyone reading this were to drive through detroit neighborhoods and see the utter lack of people, of housing stock at all, much less worth saving, you would know that detroit is doomed and will be a long term drain on that state.

    A while back, my dad sent me a link to a website that had pictures of what was left of Old Detroit. It looked like something out of a post-apocalyptic movie–beautiful opera houses, tall skyscrapers, all of them completely run down, deserted and abandoned. The site is called The Ruins of Detroit.

  9. Unfortunatly, it’s clear that he doesn’t really understand … and he’ll fall for the Hero on a White Horse who rides into town.

  10. My eyes are too tired to read something that long that doesn’t have paragraphs.I’m sure it’s my loss.

  11. While he’s saying the right things, it seems to me all situational: he’s saying the right things because he’s jobless. If he finds a union job would he not take it because of his new found ‘smarts’? I don’t think so. I think he takes the job and loves him some unions once again. I feel bad for all folks out of work but he, and his extended family, rode the union wave of more, more, more (pay, benefits, vacation). Others that are unemployed didn’t eat at the union trough for years. So I’ll save my sympathy for others thank you very much.

  12. I wonder how many of Sayoung’s friends get it. California, Illinois, Michigan, New York, and New Jersey are broke and have been dominated by Democrats for decades. Meanwhile, most southern states with Republican leadership have balanced their budgets and are building auto plants that pay good wages.

  13. S. Graham said

    My eyes are too tired to read something that long that doesn’t have paragraphs.I’m sure it’s my loss.

    Try highlighting a few lines at a time to keep your place. This one is worth wading through.

    I hope everybody is getting as mad as this guy (or gal) obviously is.

  14. The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
    And tenement halls

    And in Internet comments?
    *************
    IMHO there’s an open niche in the blogosphere for blogs that do nothing but mine online comments.

  15. I hope this is not sacrilege to say this out loud but here goes: I believe that the cure for what ails us is long-term difficulty. I have noticed other people kind of hint at that on this blog. I would even root for it – if only myself and loved ones would not have to go through it concurrently. So I am still not rooting for it.

    My reasoning is this (feel free to disagree):
    a) I grew up in American poverty (that is… not really poverty) but our life was hard enough to teach me a few things
    b) I am a half-not American child, and the non-American parent was not from Europe or Canada etc.

    In college I never knew if I should hang out with the Americans or the international students since I did not fit into either group. I can’t stand my american peers because they are spoiled selfish brats with empty heads and a major entitlement attitude. I can’t stand internationals because all they talk about is how fat and stupid americans are and there is only so much of that I can take.

    With that being said, when internationals say americans are “fat” and “stupid”, in a large part what they are saying is that americans have not been through difficulty and thus do not have the smarts and self-control that a relatively difficult life gives you.

    Hardship gives you a lot of excellent character development, which a lot of my age group (also Ezra Klein’s age group, btw) are sorely lacking in. Unfortunately I don’t see a way to impart this to them without a massive amount of poverty – which I think we can all agree is bad.

    Granted, sometimes poverty can make a bad person worse, but there is a reason we call the Depression kids the “Greatest Generation” and the baby boomers… well you get the idea.

  16. A Reader in K.C.:I hope everybody is getting as mad as this guy (or gal) obviously is.

    But, mere anger about the situation, while failing (or refusing) to understand how the situation came about, will not solve the fundamental issuse which cause the problem.

  17. Anna,
    My view is that if the Democrats (and RINOs, let them not off the hook) don’t manage to destroy the nation, then what what we are going (and will go) through ought to cure us of “liberalism” for generations.

    Shoot! It we’re really lucky, we may, as a nation, figure out that we need to back-track all the way to the Progressive Era of a century ago, and go down a different road. For, what ails us now was sown that long ago.

  18. I’m inclined to be charitable towards sayoung. Anyone who comes from a multi-generational kneejerk Democrat background, and is not only questioning but mad as hell, is on the right track. As Neo and others here can attest, change doesn’t happen overnight. (In my case it more or less did, but that’s probably not the norm.) Sayoung may not currently understand how we came to be in this situation, but given time, he or she might.

    I wish there was some way we could get sayoung to check out this site.

    I also like anna’s comment at 7:37. I think some people are going to require an enormous jolt to shock some sense into them. I don’t wish poverty on anybody, and certainly some people who are not psychologically prepared for it will be crushed and destroyed. But others will be strengthened. I’ve never lived in poverty myself, but I had a decent upbringing and have read enough history to know that the late 20th century American middle class lifestyle is not the norm through history. Yet so many don’t realize that and take it for granted.

    (Anna: As for the American vs. international problem, how about looking at it this way: You’re not in-between, you’re both!)

  19. Our friend has another comment on the WaPo here. I’ve added a few line feeds for ease of reading, but without preview, I can only hope they appear.

    Sorry, Greg- I usually agree with your blog posts, but myself and my entire family are from Michigan. ALL of us were laid off last year. I had to move my family to the south to try and get some sort of employment, but all three of my brothers, my father,my uncle, and my sister’s husband are all still there and all still unemployed.

    My respect for Obama is falling by the day, I am aware that he has to attempt to give SOME positive news, but for those of us who were actually employed and were laid off , no amount of positive framing will change the realtime outlook from on those of us on the ground in Michigan.

    As for unemployment benefits- $1200 a month barely covers the rent,let alone INSANELY high electric bills because Granholm simply refuses to back off her green approach. Do I believe in green jobs-YES- but where in the hell are they? How does raising electric bills when entire towns are dying make any damn sense?

    Obama has precisely 89 days left to EARN mine and my entire family’s votes. We are ALL UNION and we are all democrats. ALL of us have made a pact that if we do not ALL have jobs by Nov 2, we will vote republican as a protest vote.

    Yes, I know all the smack about “going backwards” and the repubs destroying everything the dems have achieved so far. Hint… those who are unemployed don’t give a rat’s a$$ about wall street reform,

    we don’t care about republican “obstruction”- with 60 votes in the senate and huge extra votes in the house THIS is the best the dems can come up with? THIS sorry state?

    I worked my butt off for Obama-he had better understand that we want JOBS. J-O-B-S for our votes. He has 89 days and the spin does not work on us because we are right there and know different. JOBS Mr. President or we vote R this time around, how could they possibly make things any worse than they already are?

  20. Nate,

    The guy is a jackass. He wants Obama to give him a job.

    Right there is the exact problem with Democrats. They are rotten people. He’s getting 1200./month of my money that I work hard for and Obama already takes it from me by threat of violence, and this ghuy wants some guy who never had a real job in his life and does not know whjat work is, and who couldn’t make one job if he spent two terms trying to give him a job.

    We need to elect R’s a tell this sucker to find a job himself, or ask people if he can sweep their floors for a living. That AMerica has so many of his type is precisely our problem.

  21. Mike Mc. Says:
    August 9th, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    We need to elect R’s a tell this sucker to find a job himself

    But the problem is that the private sector isn’t creating jobs, and won’t as long as the government has its boot on their necks.

    You can’t just tell someone to “get a job” when the economy is literally hemorrhaging jobs, thanks to demented government policies.

  22. I can tell him. I’ve done it all my life, and anyone I’ve ever known who tried has done it too.

    He can clean people’s basements or paint their houses or do a million things others will pay money for.

    That he is collecting unemployment is a poersonal disgrace for him.

    That whole mentality is why Detroit looks like Detroit today. You should view that link someone posted. If we listen to lazy whining ingrates like this guy, the entore country will be Detroit. That is where we a re going under Democrats, at an accelerating pace.

    I’m sick and tired of the sob-story takers. This guy is no good. He makes a living getting people like you to feel sorry for him, and getting politicians to buy his vote. Look at the way he is threatening Dem pols in his reply. People like him given men a bad name. he makes me sick.

  23. I wonder if a conservative state could buy something like Detroit- along with the sovereighnty, and run it as a low tax- low reg, tough on crime enclave for a few years just to see what would happen? To bad our Federal government- as it grows- is likely to spread misery around with federal regs regardless of what individual states may do.

  24. jon baker: I have read that some people have moved to Detroit to take advantage of the incredibly cheap housing. Homesteading on the rough.

    The low taxes would drive out a lot of people on the dole.

  25. Mike Mc. Says

    That he is collecting unemployment is a poersonal disgrace for him.

    That whole mentality is why Detroit looks like Detroit today. You should view that link someone posted. If we listen to lazy whining ingrates like this guy, the entore country will be Detroit.

    Your attitude is a disgrace. And the reason why Republicans have such a difficult time winning. There is a difference between losing a job and going on unemployment while looking for another, and perpetually living on welfare.
    This guy has realized the problems with voting Democrat and is looking to go Republican and all you can do is insult him, and tell him he’s not good enough. That is the attitude that keeps people who are on the edge voting Democrat. Way to help convert someone to being consrvative.

  26. Mike is right, Mike Mc. (Geez, that’s not confusing!)

    You can’t blame a guy who comes from three generations of union workers for thinking like he does. Poor guy doesn’t know any better.

    But now is the perfect opportunity to reach out to people like this – and there are literally millions of them – whose dire circumstances are causing them to be open to opening their minds even the tiniest bit and do the previously unthinkable (vote R).

    Here’s the window of opportunity to gently take these people aside and whisper, Psst…hey…what if I told you there’s another way of looking at things…what if I told you that everything happening now was not only predictable but predicted…it’s time to challenge your basic assumptions of how the world works and see how they stand up to the bright, harsh light of reality…

    Digression alert…

    My change story began with an epiphany about the media, and of all things, the way it reports on Israel. I had it on good authority (besides the Higher one) that the MSM reporting on Israel was 1) at best horribly inaccurate, and at worst completely fabricated, and 2) meant to serve the agenda of the Left and as such immune to the constant barrage of “corrections” thrown at it by Israel advocates. I realized that if I can’t trust the media to keep their agenda out of their reporting on Israel, how can I trust them on any other topic? My resultant research revealed that Republicans were not the scary monsters I’d been led to believe my whole life, here to rob you blind and eat your children, and the rest is history.

    /Digression off

    The opportunity here is enormous, because it is in the main being driven by the media’s agenda becoming ever more obvious and ever more out of touch with the facts. Now people will be able to open their minds to the idea that 1) everything they know is wrong and 2) it’s not their own damn fault. This will make it that much easier to win these hearts and minds, and maybe this time the “Republican majority for (a) generation(s)” we thought we were getting last time.

    Thanks Ezra!

  27. I think I said “opportunity” too many times.

    Well, this is the land of…oh, never mind…

  28. To hell with this clown.
    Oh my, he’s sad, he’s mad! He’s been lied to all this time! Poor baby!
    Finally! Now that the Michigan and the country is crumbling all around him. Now he finally figures it out!
    My ass.

    Where was he when the UAW, for decades, made demands that were by ANY reasonable measure certain to destroy the very industry they fed off of?
    Laughing with the rest of them as they took home their paycheck? Smug in the knowledge that they had it made and too bad for you. That’s your problem.

    Re-reading his plaintive little bleat, I get the impression that the only thing he’s sorry for is himself.

    He begins, “I urge the new republicans who are now running to reach out to the unions, we are weary,we know we are a big part of the problem and we are ready to compromise and work together.”

    Reach out to the unions? The very organizations who with full knowledge created this festering mess and who even now, refuse to learn from their mistakes?

    The very unions who sold their soles to the Obama administration in the hopes that he would do whatever was necessary to save their sorry asses? Who are Obama’s street thugs and shock troops?

    The very people who promote ‘card check’ so that they can more efficiently coerce people to see things their way?

    The same unions who crowded the lawn of a bank vice president in Maryland and terrorized his 14 year old son who was in the house this spring? The same unions who had a bus tour of CEO’s homes? The same unions who crowded and bullied citizens at town hall meetings last summer to drown out the anger over Obamacare? The same unions who send out their thugs to beat up and bully peaceful protesters?

    Reach out to these clowns? Why didn’t he speak out against before it if he didn’t believe it and in angered him? Why wait until now?

    He’s learned that his gravy train has ended and he’s pissed about it. Other than that, he’s learned nothing.

  29. Unions are a giant pyramid/ponzi scheme. All who embrace them are counting on 80% of the people being excluded from the same benefits. Because the union member realizes his benefits mean nothing when a union made McDonalds combo meal cost twenty dollars and a soft drink cost five.

  30. The guy wants adult solutions:

    The adult solution is personal responsibility.

    Start a business selling items on ebay.

    Start a business cleaning homes or fixing people’s computers or yard work, etc.

    hustle.

    I’ve needed more money this year. I passed out 1200 flyers to do computer work in my surrounding neighborhoods.

    I’m not qualified for unemployment because I don’t have a job but I found a payout rate of more than 50 cents per flyer.

    I stopped handing out flyers because I don’t have any more time.

    But if I didn’t have a job – I’d hand out 12,000 or 120,000.

    I got 8 clients with the 1200. 4 repeat customers.

    If the ratio continued it’d be 80 clients for the 12,000.

    Make jewelry and go to every fair. Make soap. Make candles. Do something besides collect for doing nothing.

  31. What Tim P said.

    The guy made big money with the union – now it is the end of the line. The jig is up.

    If Obama threw a couple of billion dollars at Detroit for more union jobs – just for a year of employment – the guy would take it and vote Dem again.
    As long as the gravy train keeps going he will vote Dem.

    He has learned nothing – because he has no idea of how an economy works – just like most government employees – they think money grows on trees.

  32. Well, some of the comments on this thread aren’t exactly filled with the milk of human kindness; they are filled with certain assumptions about this guy that ain’t necessarily so.

    To those people who’ve criticized him—first of all, if you read his statements carefully, you will see that:

    (1) his change is relatively recent. So don’t expect it to be complete, or to perfectly toe the conservative line in terms of a well-thought-out theoretical conservative basis for his viewpoints.

    (2) He is speaking not of himself and the efforts he’s made to earn money, but of voting, voting for the people most likely to effect reasonable, non-pie-in-the-sky, practical changes that will help improve the business climate in general in Michigan, not himself in particular (although of course the latter would be nice, too). The guy is not looking for a handout, but instead for business-friendly policies from someone being elected who knows something about business. That much seems clear from both of his statements, if you take the trouble to read them and think about them.

    That’s information that’s available from reading what he wrote. Then there were a couple of other comments by the same guy in the WaPo comments section. I didn’t reproduce them here, but one of them detailed some of the work he’s done to earn some spare change in the meantime. As I recall, he’s actually done quite a bit of odd-job type stuff to earn money on his own (his efforts also include re-locating to another state for another job, which then folded as well). All in all, however, he hasn’t been able to earn enough money to support his family.

    And, I repeat, his comments are not really about his own plight, they are about getting relief for systemic problems of unemployment in his area, due to policies (including union activism, which he says right at the beginning of the first excerpt is part of the problem) that have blighted economic opportunities in the area as a whole.

  33. Tim P, Baklava, Ilion, etc.—see my comment above.

    And to Tim P. in particular—he is talking about Republicans reaching out to the union people because Republicans campaigning in Michigan are reaching out to the union people, who constitute a huge number of the voters in that state. Those Republicans would be idiots not to do so. These are the people whose flip from Democrat to Republican vote is necessary to effect a win in that state.

    The sort of purist and punitive sentiments you have voiced here are unhelpful and impractical. If that’s the attitude you think Republicans should have, they will continue to lose elections. And although perhaps some day a conservative third party may take hold, we are talking about an election that is going to be occurring in less than three months, and is one of the most important in our lifetimes, if not the most important. And it is going to be between Republicans and Democrats.

    Rage at people like the guy I’ve spotlighted here may feel good, but it is counterproductive and vengeful. As a changer myself, I see it quite differently. Every person who sees more clearly than they did the day before is a good thing, and to be welcomed. Reasoned argument will persuade some of further things that seem reasonable—not spitting at them for former crimes, or making assumptions about what they think and feel now, and how far they still are from agreeing with you. These people are not the enemy.

  34. For those who’ve complained that the comments from “sayoung” are too difficult to read because of the huge paragraphs, Gerard Vanderleun has edited and re-formatted them to increase their readability. Take a look.

  35. Neo,

    please re-read his comment here:

    Obama has precisely 89 days left to EARN mine and my entire family’s votes. We are ALL UNION and we are all democrats. ALL of us have made a pact that if we do not ALL have jobs by Nov 2, we will vote republican as a protest vote.

    He so desperately wants to vote Democrat. He is only going to vote against Obama if he and his family does not get jobs.

    Meaning, he is not voting for a Republican, he is just voting against Obama, which tells me that he still does not get it and probably never will. He has no idea how an economy works, so he will never make a correct decision regarding politicians.

    He will be voting for whoever the Democrat is on the ticket in 2012.

  36. My comments expressed no rage at sayoung (that I remember)

    My comments were giving adult solutions to the problem. I didn’t have enough information to know what sayoung was doing or not doing to get a job or make money.

    Therefore I gave anybody (not just sayoung) advice about not looking for ‘answers’ from the government.

    Yes – my tone could’ve been different.

    But I stand by my message.

    WE (people in this country) need to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps if we are able-bodied. Our children depend on us. People who are not able-bodied depend on us.

  37. This guy galls me. Sorry. This is a major sore spot for me, and why should we treat this grown man like he’s a child?

    He is trying to get some government official to provide him with a job. He must need another “program”, or something.

    His union and the politicians it bought has done more harm to a city and its people than a carpet bombing could have. And that is not an exaggeration. Look at the numbers. Look at the devastation.

    Now he is unemployed and on the dole. We know that the time has been extended yet again. He is basically a welfare case, hiding behind calling it “unemployment”.

    At 1200/mo he collects 14400/year. Do you know how many hours and how much sweat I go through to make that? How long and how many many real hard-working people work to get that?

    And this whiner is sitting on his rear-end, taking that money that other people sweated for, taken by the pols and policies he spent his life voting for….

    Unreal.

    That’s America’s greatest problem. You vote for those peeople, you get what you get.

    I don’t think he really wants to work. He doth protest to dramatically. If he wanted to work, he would be working. That is true for everyone except people with real hardships of mental or physical disability.

    Someone needs to tell this guy that, and all the people like him.

    Take a look at the slide show of Detroit again. Know full well that liberal/democrat/union politics as much as anything aided and abetted that. It wasn’t an accident. It is what happens when you for a Sovietlet Kleptocracy in a city. Poverty and ruin happen.

    Detroit stands as a metaphor and warning for that whole belief and implementation system. The unions and the dems stole our hard earned labor for years, and padded their own pockets.

    As Maggie Thatcher said, they’re finally running out of other people’s money. Well guess what: People who vote Dem, people who vote liberal deserve to be the first out of a job. That is justice.

    Justice is not some government official giving this guy a job. That;s more injustice. Justice is him being responsible, and finding or making his own job.

    Not a day goes by when I don’t see 50 Mexicans, every one of whom travelled a minimum of 2000 miles, working hard in Eastern PA. They are what real hard workers are. This guy would do best to learn from them, and quit wailing to Obama and everyone else.

  38. Neo,

    1. In your reply to my comment you say,

    “he is talking about Republicans reaching out to the union people because Republicans campaigning in Michigan are reaching out to the union people, who constitute a huge number of the voters in that state. Those Republicans would be idiots not to do so.”

    I couldn’t disagree more. The state is in shambles to a large part because of the democrats and their union cohorts. Any voter with an IQ larger than their shoe size understands that. Their choice is simple. They can vote democrat and continue their slide into third world status, or they can vote for change. Republican candidates need only discuss the issues and propose their solutions and the voters can make up their own minds. This allows republicans to side-step the unions entirely and as a result not be beholden to them after the election. The fact that they are reaching out to unions is troubling and furthers my presumption that they are not really about solutions to problems but simply regaining power and continuing to milk the last remaining drops, for their benefit ofcourse.

    2. You go on to say,

    “The sort of purist and punitive sentiments you have voiced here are unhelpful and impractical.”

    See my reply to item 1.
    Punitive? Pardon me if I don’t shed tears for the organization(s) that helped create this mess and still want to continue down the same path knowing full well what it will mean for all of us. The ship is sinking and their only concern is going down first class.
    Reread my statement about the violence, corruption and intimidation unions have done and continue to do. (I could have gone on & on but the point was made) I have no intention of giving these clowns any sympathy.
    You want practicality? Try this. Their membership will eventually vote in their own self interests, but not until they have no other solution, as we are seeing. Regardless of how I or anyone else views them.

    3. Continuing on you say, “Rage at people like the guy I’ve spotlighted here may feel good, but it is counterproductive and vengeful.”
    As I outlined above, it’s not counter productive. The only thing counter productive would be to give unions, as they are presently composed, a life line, which is what you seem to be advocating. How does allowing corrupt unions to continue on help anyone?
    Also, that’s not raging. What I say is true and I stand by every word of it. Show me where I err. These organizations and theose who supported and enabled them directly share responsibility for;
    a) destructive work practices that hinder productivity and efficiency, which helped drag down an entire industry
    b) fostering cronyism where the best and brightest do not advance unless they are somehow connected and/or parrot the party line
    c) helping to elect corrupt politicians at the local, state and federal level who enshrine the corruption into law.
    All in the interests of ever more money and benefits for themselves.
    How are they any different that those Germans who said, if we had only known?

    4. You finish with,“As a changer myself, I see it quite differently. Every person who sees more clearly than they did the day before is a good thing, and to be welcomed. Reasoned argument will persuade some of further things that seem reasonable–not spitting at them for former crimes, or making assumptions about what they think and feel now, and how far they still are from agreeing with you. These people are not the enemy.

    You misunderstood what I said entirely. I don’t think this guy has changed one iota. (My opinion and last time I checked, I was allowed to have one and to voice it) He’s just desperate. Which is what I said in my initial comment.
    As I said above, “Why didn’t he speak out against it before it if he didn’t believe it and in angered him? Why wait until now?”

    If you want rage, vindictiveness and violence I suggest that you take a good hard look at the unions and their membership. When their tide was rising, they were among the worst and now they complain about how hard it is. Aww shucks.

    I’ll tell that to a man I personally know who the union, during a prolonged period of sabotage and initmidation to make his company go union, threatend to rape & kill his daughter. I’ll tell that to a highscool friend of mine who was a manager at a small local grocery chain in Ohio, who had the lug nuts removed from all four wheels of his car, twice during a prolonged campaign of violence and intimidation to make the chain go union. I’ll tell that to a non-union electrical contractor I worked for years ago, who suffered union sabotage by having the all wires cut off flush to the inside of the electrical panels in 20 houses in an effort to make the developer hire union contractors. I’ll tell that to a now retired accountant I know who worked for a utility and for crossing the line during a strike, though he wasn’t union and was in no way involved in the dispute, was fired after a utility board election tipped the board to pro union and 55 people were fired, fired for not supporting the union. Sorry, but this guy and his ilk knew this kind of stuff was going on and just winked and grinned about it.

    It’s what this Congress and administration have been trying to do and YOU rant about that on a daily basis. Are you being vengeful and vindictive?

    Workers need representation and protection of some sort. Management is hardly clean. But the unions as they exist today serve no good purpose. As Hoffer once said, every good thing begins as a cause, becomes a business and ends up a racket.
    That’s where the unions are. I’ll save my sympathy for those who deserve it.

  39. I am more than a little confused by this. Sayoung is mad because Obama has been unable to dig the country out of the mess left by George Bush in less than 2 years. But he has no reason to vote Republican because Republicans have yet to come up with any decent opposing ideas. So you are happy that he is what? Confused? Angry? Impotent? Sometimes when i read this blog I feel like I come from a different planet.

  40. Tim P.: who here ever said that you weren’t entitled to your opinion? You are entitled to your opinon. And other people are entitled to react to it, and to agree with it, or disagree with it (as I have).

    However, I think part of our disagreement has to do with the idea of reaching out to unions. I am saying Republicans must reach out to union members (people who belong to unions), and not necessarily to make promises and/or bargain with and/or make deals with the unions themselves as aggregate entities.

  41. It’s definitely important to distinguish between union rank-and-file members and the union leadership. All the complaints against unions mentioned here are appropriately directed only at the leadership, who are really to blame for huge parts of the problems with which we find ourselves today. But the rank-and-file often have no choice in the matter; depending on where they live and the kind of work they want to do, many people are forced against their will – likely by many of the unsavory tactics of harassment and intimidation mentioned above – to join the union if they want to work at all. I doubt any Republican office-seekers have any interest at all in reaching out to the union leadership, except perhaps to slap it hard across the face.

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