November 27th, 2010

Somalian teen terrorist caught in Oregon

We’ve come to expect this sort of thing for the holidays.

Somali-born US citizen Mohamed Osman Mohamud, 19, (double Mohamed there) was arrested yesterday in Portland, Oregon, after attempting to detonate what he thought was a real bomb but which was actually a fake helpfully provided by FBI agents posing as confederates. The article makes it clear, without ever actually mentioning the word “entrapment,” that although FBI agents were with him almost every step of the way and even provided the “bomb” material, the impetus for the bombing and the determination to execute it came directly from Mohamud himself.

The idea was to cause a double holiday bang by bombing the Thanksgiving weekend Christmas tree lighting ceremony, maximizing the horror factor and dismembering families with little kids into the bargain. There is no information yet as to how the agents initially discovered Mohamud, but it’s reassuring to know they did. Nor is there anything about the influences on the would-be bomber: mosque, family, friends?

It’s not at all surprising that bombers such as Mohamud exist in this country, and that they are among the immigrant population from predominently Muslim countries. Nor is it a wonder that, while so much attention was focused on the new airplane rules that resulted from the last holiday bomber (underwear guy), the new kid on the block’s modus operandi was completely different.

87 Responses to “Somalian teen terrorist caught in Oregon”

  1. Richard Aubrey Says:

    As Newt Gingrich said years ago, you secure 1000 targets, they go after the 1001st.
    Looking at the wrong end.

  2. Artfldgr Says:

    It’s not at all surprising that bombers such as Mohamud exist in this country

    whats surprising is that they are not all that smart and do not really do or think up things that would be more effective or could work by other means, or even enough basics to even get what they do make to work.

    in a couple of the cases a very slight change to what they did would have made what they were planning very effective… a simple change in focus and method and they could easily do more.

    the fact that this level of expertise is not common among such organizations (or purchasable) says a lot about the common persons out there (as there is no shortage of such expertise).

  3. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Yeah, this is getting ridiculous.

    The FBI catches yet another Muslim would-be terrorist in the act. Who the hell cares whether, as the papers want to fixate on–instead of on the terrorist action itself or its motivation–this Somali was a U.S. citizen or not, was born in Somalia or the U.S.? “Muhammad”—true to his name–was a Muslim intent—as the Qur’an and the example of Muhammad commands–on yet another terrorist attack against us “unbelievers,” this time instead of a car bomb in Times Square, a car bomb supposed to detonate at a well-attended public Thanksgiving celebration in Oregon—sure to include a lot of children—held in front of the symbol of another major unbeliever Holiday i.e. Christmas.

    But, instead of outrage, instead of heightened alarm, instead of calls to refocus all of our anti-terrorist efforts on Muslims, and particularly on the Muslims who are the terrorists, its just “ho hum,” another guy caught, let’s move on. Just as it was after Major Hassan’s “alleged” attack that killed 13 soldiers and wounded another 30, just as it was after the barely remembered attack by a Muslim gunman on the Seattle Jewish Federation in 2006 in which a pregnant woman was killed and 5 others injured, just as it was after the barely reported “inexplicable” 2007 attack in which a Bosnian Muslim, Sulejmen Talovic, shot up a Shopping Mall in Utah, and shot 6 people dead and wounded many others etc., etc.

    As has been said, one of these days a self-starter will slip through the net, or a team of more sophisticated and trained professionals will slip across our porous borders, or some “sleepers” will be activated, and we will have another 9/11 scale or greater attack, with perhaps a lot more than 3,000 dead and thousands injured. Perhaps—Heaven forbid– we will suffer something like the horrific, bestial, deadly attack on the elementary school children at Beslan; an attack, by the way, that was planned and carried out by one of those oh, so peaceful, Sufi Muslims.

    However, the likelihood of such a future attack on us can be diminished if we focus our efforts on those who fit the “profile” of the vast majority—world-wide—of terrorist attackers since 9/11 (and long before), i.e. MUSLIMS.

    I advocate immediate dismissals and, in egregious cases, trials for government officials who are so derelict in their duties—given the wealth of evidence pointing to the identity of the terrorists–as to not focus on and to work diligently and wholeheartedly against Muslim Jihadists in all their manifestations, either because of stupidity, or denial, or political correctness, because they are on the same ideological page as the terrorists, or because they are somehow sympathetic to the terrorists and their aims, or see them as justified and the U.S. as somehow deserving of such bloody “payback” by Muslims.

  4. Occam's Beard Says:

    Wow, a Mohammed O. Mohammed (66% Mohammed factor). Can’t say he was under cover. Way to go, immigration. Maybe you could charter jets and fly in planeloads from Somalia.

    Seriously, why in God’s name are we allowing anyone from Somalia to immigrate here? Why? Are convenience stores and taxi companies that hard up for labor?

    Somalis have no skills. Zero. Zip. Nada. Zilch. (Not even bomb-making apparently). It’s not like we’re importing neurosurgeons, or even decent running backs. These people are lousy, worthless citizens/residents, pure wastes of perfectly good oxygen, who add nothing whatsoever to the country except for problems (see Sirhan Sirhan – is it me, or are Muslims imagination in naming their kids?), and yet we admit them.

    Why?

  5. Occam's Beard Says:

    PS: I’m aware Sirhan^2 wasn’t Somali. So he was a Palestinian cockroach instead of a Somali one. A distinction without a difference.

  6. Occam's Beard Says:

    PPS: above should read, “or are Muslims singularly lacking in imagination in naming their kids?”

  7. expat Says:

    I’m glad the FBI was on top of this. I hope a lot of would-be martyrs are going to bed these days with the feeling that big brother is watching them. The more paranoid they become, the harder it will be for them to stay under the radar. I hope they have nightmares about ending their days on a diet of nice porky baloney sandwiches.

  8. I Notice When People Repeat Things Other People Already Said Says:

    “These people are lousy, worthless citizens/residents, pure wastes of perfectly good oxygen, who add nothing whatsoever to the country except for problems…”

    - Occam’s Beard

    “So he was a Palestinian cockroach instead of a Somali one.”

    - Occam’s Beard

    “Quite apart from this we consider that it is much more urgent and necessary that the local groups should seek to operate first of all on their home ground and to sweep away Ostjuden and Jewish vermin in general with an iron broom…”

    Voelkischer Beobachter, March 1920

    “Every Hutu must join together to rid Rwanda of these Tutsi cockroaches! Hutu Power! Hutu Power!”

    - RTLM, 1994

  9. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Occam—well, as a matter of fact we do “import” them. There have been several instances where supposedly “well meaning” church and other “humanitarian” groups, aided by our Congress and State Department, have seen to it that substantial numbers of primitive, hostile, Muslim Somali “refuges” have been airlifted to the U.S. and “resettled,” just plunked down in areas of the U.S. that had little notice of and no say in their “resettlement” there.

    A prime example being the Somalis that were resettled near Tyson’s poultry processing plants in Tennessee, Minnesota, and elsewhere—displacing American workers–and have since successfully gamed the system/sued—no doubt with the help of the same or similar humanitarian and church groups–to get “accommodations” to elements of Shari’a law and Islamic customs in their working conditions. Read the comments on this issue and the Letters to the Editors sometime in the local papers, like the one serving Shelbyville, Tennessee, and see what the indigenous locals think of and have observed about their newfound, resettled neighbors; it ain’t pretty.

    Then, of course, there is the largest Muslim beachhead/colony in the U.S., in the Detroit-Dearborn, Michigan area, where mostly pro-Hezbollah Shi’ite “Palestinians” have “resettled,” aided by far Left Congressman John Conyers, and have been facilitated in settling into their new colony by a lot of government aid, such as the Federal money that built their “Bint Jebail Community Center,” where a reporter who speaks the language got an earful on a visit there (http://www.debbieschlussel.com/2195/hezbollah-u-s-a-part-iii-my-date-at-dearbornistans-hezbollah-social-club/); “Bint Jbel” being a solidly Hezbollah supporting area in South Lebanon, on the Lebanon–Israel border that was the scene of the fiercest fighting in the last clash between Hezbollah and Israel, and from which most of these mostly Shi’ite Muslim “refugees” come from.

  10. Sergey Says:

    There should be a law making those with IQ below 100 unelligible for immigration to USA. Such law will effectively cut of 99% of Muslim immigrants without being maligned as rasist discrimination.

  11. Occam's Beard Says:

    I Notice When People Repeat Things Other People Already Said:

    Let’s then agree to hope that lots of these clowns move to where you live, if they don’t live there already, so you can enjoy the rich tapestry of their culture, such as it is, firsthand.

  12. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Occam–Well said!

  13. Jack Says:

    To the oh-so-smug commenter trying to morally equate negative comments about Somalis in this country to Nazi Germany or Rwandan Hutu attitudes, get a clue!

    The Jews clearly integrated themselves into European society as best they could, as did the Tutsis in Rwanda. The only thing stopping them were those in power who hated them.

    On the other hand, the US actively took Somalis from their war-torn shithole of origin and settled them across the country, from New England to the Pacific, in the hopes of providing them with a better life. We have done nothing to prevent them from integrating into our society as fully as they want and from reaping (or getting handed to them) whatever benefits they may.

    However, by and large, no such Somai integration into our society has taken place. In fact, we have, more often than not, been forced to bend to their demands (as in the case of the Tyson chicken plant in Tennessee). Somalis live together in isolated enclaves, be they in Maine, Tennessee, Alabama, Minnesota, or apparently in Oregon. They make little or no effort to learn the language. They show no gratitude; in fact, there are more and more examples every week of Somalis in this country engaged in violence, terror, and rape against us.

    Just this past month, our delightful Somali community has shown their appreciation in many ways. We’ve had this tree-lighting bomb plot, a Somali gang found to be running a prositution ring with underage non-Muslim girls in Minnesota, Tennessee, and Ohio (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/08/somali-gangs-ran-sex-ring-states-authorities-say/), and indictments of Somalis in California, Alabama, and Minnesota for providing funding and recruits to the Somali branch of al Qaeda (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/05/AR2010080503683.html).

    Although horrible conspiracies swirled around the Jews in Europe and Tutsis in Rwanda as these groups were insulted and ostracized, those tales were fabricated in order to “sell” the hatred. However, the subversive and isolationist behavior of Somalis in this country is REAL, and for someone to call for something to be done about it is not equivalent to Nazi anti-Semitic or Hutu anti-Tutsi hate speech. It’s self-preservational speech!

  14. Sergey Says:

    Muslim culture just does not mixed well with any non-Muslim culture anywhere on this planet. No surprize here, actually: it was made this way by design. The very basic notions of Muslim worldview make Muslim integration impossible. This simple fact means that Muslim immigration to the West is doomed to create problems and should be avoided for this reason only, even puting aside terrorism threat.

  15. I Notice When People Repeat Things Other People Already Said Says:

    “However, by and large, no such Somai integration into our society has taken place. In fact, we have, more often than not, been forced to bend to their demands (as in the case of the Tyson chicken plant in Tennessee)….[and etc.]”

    - Occam’s Beard

    “Wherever I now went I saw Jews, and the more I saw of them the more strikingly and clearly they stood out as a different people from the other citizens. Especially the Inner City and the district northwards from the Danube Canal swarmed with a people who, even in outer appearance, bore no similarity to the Germans.”

    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

    A great movement, called Zionism, arose among them…To outward appearances it seemed as if only one group of Jews championed this movement, while the great majority disapproved of it, or even repudiated it. But an investigation of the situation showed that those outward appearances were purposely misleading. These outward appearances
    emerged from a mist of theories which had been produced for reasons of expediency, if not for purposes of downright deception.”

    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

  16. Some People Still Have a Really Hard Time Telling the Difference between Part of a Group and the Entire Group as a Whole Says:

    “They show no gratitude; in fact, there are more and more examples every week of Somalis in this country engaged in violence, terror, and rape against us. Just this past month, our delightful Somali community has shown their appreciation in many ways. We’ve had this tree-lighting bomb plot, a Somali gang found to be running a prositution ring with underage non-Muslim girls in Minnesota, Tennessee, and Ohio…”

    - Occam’s Beard

    “The part which the Jews played in the social phenomenon of prostitution, and more especially in the white slave traffic, could be studied here
    better than in any other West-European city, with the possible exception of certain ports in Southern France. Walking by night along the streets of the Leopoldstadt, almost at every turn whether one wished it or not, one witnessed certain happenings of whose existence the Germans knew nothing until the War made it possible and indeed inevitable for the
    soldiers to see such things on the Eastern front.

    A cold shiver ran down my spine when I first ascertained that it was the same kind of cold-blooded, thick-skinned and shameless Jew who showed his consummate skill in conducting that revolting exploitation of the dregs of the big city. Then I became fired with wrath.”

    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

  17. holmes Says:

    Clearly we need to screen everyone headed to a public gathering.

  18. I Notice When People Repeat Things Other People Already Said Says:

    “Muslim culture just does not mixed well with any non-Muslim culture anywhere on this planet. No surprize [sic] here, actually: it was made this way by design. The very basic notions of Muslim worldview make Muslim integration impossible.”

    - Sergey

    “But this has nothing to do with nomadic life as such; because the Jew does not ever think of leaving a territory which he has once occupied. He sticks where he is with such tenacity that he can hardly be driven out even by superior physical force. He expands into new territories only when certain conditions for his existence are provided therein; but even then–unlike the nomad–he will not change his former abode. He is and remains a parasite, a sponger who, like a pernicious bacillus, spreads over wider and wider areas according as some favourable area attracts him. The effect produced by his presence is also like that of the vampire; for wherever he establishes himself the people who grant
    him hospitality are bound to be bled to death sooner or later. Thus the Jew has at all times lived in States that have belonged to other races and within the organization of those States he had formed a State of his own, which is, however, hidden behind the mask of a ‘religious community’, as long as external circumstances do not make it advisable for this community to declare its true nature. As soon as the Jew feels himself sufficiently established in his position to be able to hold it without a disguise, he lifts the mask and suddenly appears in the character which so many did not formerly believe or wish to see: namely that of the Jew.”

    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

  19. Boots Says:

    Islam has bloody borders. Look around the world where the conflicts are raging, and most involve islam.

    Why are we inviting the dregs of world society here to America? They have no skills, they bring nothing but hate for those who ‘rescue’ them, and they plot to kill us.

    It’s a trojan horse, but the fools here at home have built the trojan horse. These do-gooder social justice groups then go out to the world’s worst hotbeds of islamic hate and invite the haters to come to America, the better able to kill us. It’s crazy.

  20. Tom Says:

    “I Notice” is not nearly clever enough to obscure the fact the nasty little Somali Muzzie was trying to blow up a whole bunch of people. Or maybe he thinks this is just another Volkischer Beobachter BS story from Amerika.

    His familiarity with Mein Kampf is a curious sidelight into his persona. I’ve never read it, will never, see no reason to. I also have not, nor intend to figure out the logic of a paranoid schizphenic’s ravings. Mr. Notice has seemingly read Adolf, but to what end?

  21. Occam's Beard aka I notice when people say stupid crap Says:

    We have wished to avoid shooting. But the shooting has started. And history has recorded who fired the first shot. In the long run, however, all that will matter is who fired the last shot.
    America has been attacked. [...]
    The purpose of Hitler’s attack was to frighten the American people off the high seas — to force us to make a trembling retreat. This is not the first time he has misjudged the American spirit. That spirit is now aroused.
    If our national policy were to be dominated by the fear of shooting, then all of our ships and those of our sister republics would have to be tied up in home harbors. Our Navy would have to remain respectfully — abjectly — behind any line which Hitler might decree on any ocean as his own dictated version of his own war zone.
    Naturally, we reject that absurd and insulting suggestion. We reject it because of our own self-interest, because of our own self-respect, because, most of all, of our own good faith. Freedom of the seas is now, as it has always been, a fundamental policy of your Government and mine.
    Hitler has often protested that his plans for conquest do not extend across the Atlantic Ocean. But his submarines and raiders prove otherwise. So does the entire design of his new world order.
    These grim truths which I have told you of the present and future plans of Hitlerism will, of course, be hotly denied tonight and tomorrow in the controlled press and radio of the Axis Powers. And some Americans – not many – will continue to insist that Hitler’s plans need not worry us and that we should not concern ourselves with anything that goes on beyond rifle shot of our own shores.
    [...]
    The protestations of these American citizens — few in number — will, as usual, be paraded with applause through the Axis press and radio during the next few days in an effort to convince the world that the majority of Americans are opposed to their duly chosen Government and in reality are only waiting to jump on Hitler’s band wagon when it comes this way.
    The motive of such Americans is not the point at issue. The fact is that Nazi propaganda continues in desperation to seize upon such isolated statements as proof of American disunity.
    All of us Americans, of all opinions, are faced with the choice between the kind of world we want to live in and the kind of world which Hitler and his hordes would impose upon us.
    None of us wants to burrow under the ground and live in total darkness like a comfortable mole.
    The forward march of Hitler and of Hitlerism can be stopped – and it will be stopped.
    Very simply and very bluntly, we are pledged to pull our own oar in the destruction of Hitlerism.
    And when we have helped to end the curse of Hitlerism, we shall help to establish a new peace which will give to decent people everywhere a better chance to live and prosper in security and in freedom and in faith.
    There are those who say that our great good fortune has betrayed us; that we are now no match for the regimented masses who have been trained in the Spartan ways of ruthless brutality. They say that we have grown fat, and flabby, and lazy, and that we are doomed.
    But those who say that know nothing of America or of American life.
    They do not know that this land is great because it is a land of endless challenge. Our country was first populated, and it has been steadily developed, by men and women in whom there burned the spirit of adventure and restlessness and individual independence which will not tolerate oppression.
    Ours has been a story of vigorous challenges which have been accepted and overcome, challenges of uncharted seas, of wild forests and desert plains, of raging floods and withering drought, of foreign tyrants and domestic strife, of staggering problems, social, economic, and physical; and we have come out of them the most powerful Nation, and the freest, in all of history.
    Today in the face of this newest and greatest challenge of them all we Americans have cleared our decks and taken our battle stations. We stand ready in the defense of our Nation and the faith of our fathers to do what God has given us the power to see as our full duty.
    -

    President Franklin Delano Roosevelt Address over the radio on Navy Day concerning the attack upon the destroyer U. S. S. Kearny, October 27, 1941

  22. Occam's Beard aka I notice when people say stupid crap Says:

    Sorry about the paragraphing.

  23. Occam's Beard aka I notice when people say stupid crap Says:

    Apologies, neo, for wasting bandwidth, but here it is again in a for that is easier to read, which it richly deserves (note: I forgot to mark several ellipses)

    We have wished to avoid shooting. But the shooting has started. And history has recorded who fired the first shot. In the long run, however, all that will matter is who fired the last shot.

    America has been attacked. [...]

    The purpose of Hitler’s attack was to frighten the American people off the high seas — to force us to make a trembling retreat. This is not the first time he has misjudged the American spirit. That spirit is now aroused.

    If our national policy were to be dominated by the fear of shooting, then all of our ships and those of our sister republics would have to be tied up in home harbors. Our Navy would have to remain respectfully — abjectly — behind any line which Hitler might decree on any ocean as his own dictated version of his own war zone.

    Naturally, we reject that absurd and insulting suggestion. We reject it because of our own self-interest, because of our own self-respect, because, most of all, of our own good faith. Freedom of the seas is now, as it has always been, a fundamental policy of your Government and mine.

    Hitler has often protested that his plans for conquest do not extend across the Atlantic Ocean. But his submarines and raiders prove otherwise. So does the entire design of his new world order.

    These grim truths which I have told you of the present and future plans of Hitlerism will, of course, be hotly denied tonight and tomorrow in the controlled press and radio of the Axis Powers. And some Americans – not many – will continue to insist that Hitler’s plans need not worry us and that we should not concern ourselves with anything that goes on beyond rifle shot of our own shores.

    [...]

    The protestations of these American citizens — few in number — will, as usual, be paraded with applause through the Axis press and radio during the next few days in an effort to convince the world that the majority of Americans are opposed to their duly chosen Government and in reality are only waiting to jump on Hitler’s band wagon when it comes this way.

    The motive of such Americans is not the point at issue. The fact is that Nazi propaganda continues in desperation to seize upon such isolated statements as proof of American disunity.

    All of us Americans, of all opinions, are faced with the choice between the kind of world we want to live in and the kind of world which Hitler and his hordes would impose upon us.

    None of us wants to burrow under the ground and live in total darkness like a comfortable mole.

    The forward march of Hitler and of Hitlerism can be stopped – and it will be stopped.

    Very simply and very bluntly, we are pledged to pull our own oar in the destruction of Hitlerism.

    And when we have helped to end the curse of Hitlerism, we shall help to establish a new peace which will give to decent people everywhere a better chance to live and prosper in security and in freedom and in faith.

    There are those who say that our great good fortune has betrayed us; that we are now no match for the regimented masses who have been trained in the Spartan ways of ruthless brutality. They say that we have grown fat, and flabby, and lazy, and that we are doomed.

    But those who say that know nothing of America or of American life.

    They do not know that this land is great because it is a land of endless challenge. Our country was first populated, and it has been steadily developed, by men and women in whom there burned the spirit of adventure and restlessness and individual independence which will not tolerate oppression.

    Ours has been a story of vigorous challenges which have been accepted and overcome, challenges of uncharted seas, of wild forests and desert plains, of raging floods and withering drought, of foreign tyrants and domestic strife, of staggering problems, social, economic, and physical; and we have come out of them the most powerful Nation, and the freest, in all of history.

    Today in the face of this newest and greatest challenge of them all we Americans have cleared our decks and taken our battle stations. We stand ready in the defense of our Nation and the faith of our fathers to do what God has given us the power to see as our full duty.

    -

    President Franklin Delano Roosevelt Address over the radio on Navy Day concerning the attack upon the destroyer U. S. S. Kearny, October 27, 1941

  24. I Notice When People Repeat Things Other People Already Said Says:

    Doesn’t it give you pause–even for the briefest of moments–to be shown that you are literally using the same exact rhetorical devices used by the Nazis and Hutu Power extremists to justify the persecution and mass murder of innocent people?

    “Islam has bloody borders. Look around the world where the conflicts are raging, and most involve islam. ”

    Yeah, I agree–Hinduism has bloody borders. India fought repeated wars with virtually every one of its neighbors, was ruled by an extremist Hindu nationalist group involved in massacring thousands of innocent Muslims and other non-Hindu groups, is marked by a repressive caste structure…oh wait, you’re talking about Islam! I guess if you cast a wide enough net (“Islam,” “Hinduism,” “the West,” you can characterize huge numbers of people living in complex, dynamic societies marked by significant internal differences as well as similarities any which way you’d like.

    “His familiarity with Mein Kampf is a curious sidelight into his persona.”

    I’ve never read it either; I spent about five minutes running “find” searches through a Project Gutenberg version and came up with dozens of parallels between Hitler’s rhetoric and Occam’s. It was surprisingly easy! But please, continue focusing on me instead of chiding him, even ever so gently, for echoing one of history’s greatest monsters and certainly its greatest racist.

    “Or maybe he thinks this is just another Volkischer Beobachter BS story from Amerika.”

    You seem to be missing my point, so I’ll try to explain it more clearly. The crimes of those individuals are real; what elevates Occam’s rhetoric to the level of Hitler’s is a) his assumption that the crimes of a minority of people are owned by the entirety of the group to which those people belong (because a group does not commit the crimes, real or imagined, of the individual), and b) his use of dehumanizing language (ie, cockroaches) that directly and verbatim repeats the dehumanizing language used by actual extremist racists who committed genocide.

  25. Harry The Extremist Says:

    Looks like this would be terrorist from the “religion of peace” was a student at Oregon State University (Go Beaves!)…
    Talk about biting the multicultural hand that feeds you.

  26. I Notice some halfwit failing to be clever by clumsily comparing anti-Islamist sentiment with anti-Semitism Says:

    We have another liberal troll infesting the boards Neo.

  27. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    I Notice–I guess one good quote deserves another:

    Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini:

    “Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.” (http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=10538 )

  28. rickl Says:

    We have another liberal troll infesting the boards Neo.

    Yeah. It might be the same one as “Knowing Things About History Is Useful” on the European thread, though I think I dealt with him sufficiently.

  29. kolnai Says:

    So, “I Notice,” what do you propose to do?

    I’m not using any rhetoric, so let me be precise and clinical:

    The minority of the complex dynamic mesh of Muslim societies you speak of are the overwhelming source of terrorism for most of the world, including us.

    There is a debate to be had about the fascist, Nazist inspirations of current Islamism – see Paul Berman’s “Flight of the Intellectuals” – but you seem to want to obfuscate that by burying it under the blooming, buzzing confusion of “culture.”

    You say it’s easy to pigeonhole people invidiously by characterizing a minority of the group as if it were the whole group, which is true enough; but it’s also easy to bury your head in the sand by refusing to acknowledge how dangerous a specific minority of a group is by appealing to the purported benign nature of the majority of the group.

    If you simply object to OB’s rhetoric, and wish he would be more precise, then fine – say so. But when you try to score points by comparing him to Hitler – really, a guy commenting on a relatively obscure blog – you tend to come off like someone who would rather pretend a harmless citizen is more of a threat than the real Hitlerists in the world.

    So beyond playing “gotcha” with OB, what have you to contribute? And maybe you could answer OB’s challenge – would you, in all honesty, welcome the prospect of your hometown being flooded with Somali immigrants? Perhaps you would, but I’d be interested to hear why it wouldn’t bother you even a little.

    One more thing: You should be aware that the real Nazis in the world today, the Islamists, thrive off of the sort of rhetoric you use – it is the very public sheen of their machinations. The liberal political scientists Paul Sniderman and Louk Hagendoorn wrote a book on this topic, “When Ways of Life Collide.” Say what you want about us conservatives, but you can’t accuse them of siding with us on most things.

    Multiculturalist rhetoric is dangerous too. Very.

  30. Noticing Things Says:

    “We have another liberal troll…”

    Here are the positions I’ve explicitly taken on this and the other thread:

    1) Economic globalization and free trade are good.

    2) Genocidal rhetoric is morally wrong.

    3) Individuals, and not the groups to which they belong, should be judged for their behavior.

    I’ll add a fourth that was implicit rather than explicit.

    4) America has repeatedly integrated immigrant groups that were, at the time, deemed un-assimilable and eternally antithetical to American culture (ie, the Irish, Italians, etc), and will continue to do so with new groups, including Somalis, because America and the American ideal are strong enough and appealing enough to bring together very different people, regardless of race, creed, or any other superficial difference, into a single people who adhere to the propositions that all men (and women) are created equal and hold inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    If you consider these to be “liberal” ideals than conservatism has sunk lower than I thought it has. The Right needs to get its sh** together or 2010 will be a fluke.

  31. Jack Says:

    Of course, other than posting Nazi propaganda, there is no substantive debate out of the pseudointellectual troll.

    The reality is that the only mass calls for genocide today come out the Muslim world, where “Mein Kampf” incidentally is still a best seller, and the only people who terrorize both their host countries (when in the minority) or their minority groups (when in the majority) are Muslim.

  32. Occam's Beard aka I notice when people say stupid crap Says:

    The crimes of those individuals are real; what elevates Occam’s rhetoric to the level of Hitler’s is a) his assumption that the crimes of a minority of people are owned by the entirety of the group to which those people belong (because a group does not commit the crimes, real or imagined, of the individual),

    How many Germans belonged to the Gestapo at its height?

    Answer: ca. 5000.

    How many belonged to the SS in 1933?

    Answer: 100,000.

    What was the population of Germany in 1933?

    Answer: ca. 65,000,000.

    Do/did we hold the German people responsible for the crimes that ultimately issued from that tiny minority?

    Answer: Yes. Hell yes.

    Your point is crap, dorm room sophistry of the first water. Until and unless Muslims en masse and loudly denounce terrorism, they are all – every man-jack – to blame for those who commit crimes in Islam’s name. Silence implies consent.

    On top of which, scenes of mass jubilation after, e.g., 9/11 implies that Muslim support for terrorism is substantial.

  33. Occam's Beard aka I notice when people say stupid crap Says:

    America has repeatedly integrated immigrant groups that were, at the time, deemed un-assimilable and eternally antithetical to American culture (ie, the Irish, Italians, etc), and will continue to do so with new groups, including Somalis, because America and the American ideal are strong enough and appealing enough to bring together very different people, regardless of race, creed, or any other superficial difference…

    ¬Where are the Aztec temples?

    Also, remind me again of the instances of the Irish and Italians engaging in terrorism to get their way. I missed all those. In fact, help me to remember a single other immigrant group that resorted to terrorism to advance its cause. I can’t think of any.

    And while I’m on the subject, help me to identify a single religious, cultural, or ethnic group that immigrated here whose underlying, written down, and proudly enunciated philosophy is to establish dominion over the rest of us. I missed that too.

    into a single people who adhere to the propositions that all men (and women) are created equal and hold inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    What is their pursuit of happiness involves burying women up to their necks and stoning them to death? OK by you? They’re just pursuing happiness, Muslim style, right?

    The point, for those who missed it, is that some cultures/ religions/ ideas are not acceptable to Americans. (Maybe to liberals, though.) Just because someone believes in and/or wants something does not necessarily give them a right to it.

    We did not, do not, and will not accept human sacrifice. Sorry, Aztecs, that’s out. We don’t care what the Sun God wants. We did not, do not, and will not accept polygamy. Sorry, Mormons, that’s out. We don’t care what Joseph Smith said.

    Similarly, we did not, do not, and will not accept death by stoning. Sorry, Muslims, that’s out. We don’t care what Mohammed said.

    This is our country, not theirs. We have a right to preserve our way of life. If they want to partake of our way of life, and accept our principles – the ones you so eloquently enunciated – fine. No problem. But if they want to impose theirs, and a forteriori if they engage in terrorism in an attempt to do so, then there is a huge problem, that all of the high-flown rhetoric in the world won’t solve.

    We have a problem. A big one, and getting bigger. Pretending we don’t is madness.

  34. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Notices–One attempt, and I’m done with you.

    The other groups you mention–the Irish, the Italians, etc.–did not arrive in this country imbued with an all-consuming, ultra-violent, totalitarian, predatory, eliminationist ideology—deliberately impervious to reform–which did not subscribe at all to the Judeo-Christian moral code, and which viewed all those who were not adherents to their ideology as subhumans—i.e. the Qur’an’s characterization of “unbelievers” as “the vilest of creatures,” (8:55). An Islamic ideology which decreed that all unbelievers were to be the subject of Muslim’s eternal enmity, that all unbelievers must be violently attacked and warred upon i.e. the “Verse of the Sword’s” “kill the unbelievers wherever you find them” (9:5). An ideology that said that unbelievers were “accursed,” people “guilty” of perversely and obstinately rejecting the one true God, Allah, unbelievers who Allah has decreed will be eternally burned and tormented in Hellfire, and who must either be converted, be made into second class citizens (“dhimmis”) under the domination and control of Muslims, must be enslaved, or be killed if they resist; unbelievers and their nations, cultures, laws and religions that are to be subverted, dominated, and conquered by Muslims using any means necessary.

    Some Muslims are taking the quicker, more violent road of Jihad to the conquest of the entire world that Allah has decreed is their destiny, other Muslims are playing facilitative roles, or are taking the slower, apparently “peaceful” road of “stealth” Jihad.

  35. neo-neocon Says:

    kolnai: “I Notice” is just following Godwin’s Law.

  36. Tom Says:

    I wonder if Mr (OK–? Ms) Notice aka “It was surprisingly easy!” has ever done any hard cerebral lifting, ever. As in thinking things through on his own. He quotes Adolf at length, then admits he’s never read him before. Brings contentiousness to the table, but nothing of value.

    Ahh, to hell with him. It ain’t worth it no more no how.

  37. Occam's Beard Says:

    The fundamental immorality underlying liberalism is psychological distance.

    Liberals such as our friend here talk in the abstract about how things should be, and how people are. Barbra Streisand, for example, while babbling liberal pieties, famously orders her servants not to look her in the face (this could be humanitarian; not sure about this), but to avert their eyes. She loves the people, it’s just individuals she wants kept away from her.

    Liberals want violent criminals released (“Free Tookie! He only murdered four people with shotgun blasts to the head! But he ‘wrote’ a children’s book, so it’s a wash!”). They just want him released…somewhere else, far away from them. They don’t give a rat’s ass about unleashing this predator on his prey, as long as they’re not on the menu.

    Similarly, in this incident, young “I Notice” wraps himself in the flag, clutches his copy of Thoreau to his breast, and feels good about himself. It’s far away, didn’t concern him personally, he just read about it on the Web. (“What’s for dinner, anyway? Be right there. First, I’ve got to Google up some Mein Kampf quotes.”)

    He doesn’t consider, and probably has not imagined, how he would feel had he taken his family to the Christmas tree lighting and had one of his young children die in his arms, blown to smithereens by some Muslim a-hole (I mean that in the kindest, most charitable, most liberal way possible) in an attempt to impose his stupid, evil, backward death-cult of a religion on everyone else (because that’s exactly what he was attempting to do). Parents in Portland fortunately only have to imagine this; those in Beslan lived it.

    He cannot imagine this, any more than he can imagine the agonizing death of a loved one crushed to death in the Twin Towers, expiring slowly over days, hoping against hope for rescue. His failure to do so reflects a certain intellectual and moral poverty. My advice to him: for once identify with, and empathize with, the victims. The real victims.

  38. Curtis Says:

    Brother. We’re getting stocked up on stupid here.

    Superficial differences between gender, between race, between religions?

    Since Pioneer Square is located fairly close to Portland State University, I bet there are “teachable moments” occurring right now sponsored by the people who just escaped death.

    The lecture will probably start, “The important thing is to know how Mo was a victim. Now, who would like to role model poor Mo. Megan? Okay. Now who wants to be the FBI. I know, I know. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, but hey we’re just doing this pretend.”

  39. Curtis Says:

    Doesn’t Mo have that “bored Obama type look?”

  40. Oblio Says:

    Our new troll conspicuously avoids answering kolnai.

  41. Boots Says:

    As time goes by, the jihadi’s here in America will get better at it, eventually they will figure out how to make bombs that work. There are so many potential jihadi’s living here, using America’s freedom of movement, of association, of information, and they’re just dying to kill us all and end it.

  42. Hong Says:

    I guess we shouldn’t go too far with the Somali or Islamic bashing since it appears from the article, at least, that someone close to ‘Mr. Mohamed Mohamed Mohamed Mohamed islam’ (presumably a family member) informed law enforcement. Even though the Derka derka quality of the would be terrorist fits all the worst stereotypes.

  43. Gringo Says:

    Occam’s Beard:

    Somalis have no skills. Zero. Zip. Nada. Zilch. (Not even bomb-making apparently). It’s not like we’re importing neurosurgeons, or even decent running backs.

    These days, I would agree with you. However, I remember an exception from days gone by. There was an engineering grad student from Somalia who also wrote a column in the campus paper. I recall one column where he wrote with fondness about the teacher he had who came to Somalia with the Peace Corps.

    But that was before Somalia was the dysfunctional basket case we see today. I wonder whatever happened to him.

  44. gs Says:

    Hong Says: I guess we shouldn’t go too far with the Somali or Islamic bashing…

    1. Agreed. There are decent people in the Muslim masses and, no doubt, some reformers. And there are people who are still uncertain who the strong horse is.

    2. Iirc I’ve posted before that the decent Muslims will get crushed if the situation continues to degenerate into a full-fledged clash of civilizations. Which it may do given multiculti fecklessness.

    3. If I were a jihadist mullah, I would tell my listeners not to fear the weapons of the infidels. I would preach that Allah has darkened their minds and their hour is past.

    4. Instead of squashing the Islamists, we screw around acting as though they must be taken seriously. This does at least two things: it helps them to grow into a threat that will be serious someday; and it ignores (and emboldens) our legitimate long-term competitors.

  45. gs Says:

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born in Somalia.

  46. waltj Says:

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born in Somalia.

    Indeed she was. To a prominent, worldly family that spent much of her childhood in Kenya, or otherwise outside of Somalia. It’s clear that Ms. Hirsi had no use for one particular aspect of Somali “culture” — forced marriage — before she ever set foot in the Netherlands and began to learn about alternative political and social systems, i.e., those not based on Islam. Once her open mind could absorb what the West had to offer, she dumped Islam like a live grenade.

    The history of jihadi drones and wannabes like Mohamed Osman Mohamud. runs practically 180 degrees out from this. Brought to the West as children or born here, they reject our values and embrace an idealized version of what their parents may have fled. One thing I read about MOM is that his obligatory jihadi video had a portion that castigated his parents for preventing him from performing his jihadi “duty”. So it looks like the parents were trying to do the right thing, but their rebellious son wasn’t having any of it. Whether he had help, on-line or in person, in formulating his views remains to be seen.

    Occam, FYI, Sirhan Sirhan is a Palestinian Christian, not a Muslim. He’s still a loathsome criminal, however.

  47. Curtis Says:

    To Imam Rauf: A personal message.

    The thing is, we don’t want you over here. We don’t trust you. Let your bros screw up their own countries, bomb their own people, and sharia until they can’t sharia no more. If you want to take responsibility for them, fine! We’ll hold you accountable. You can pay for their education and welfare. And police all their activities to ensure the unthinkable doesn’t happen. But in the meantime, screw you. Screw you and the horse you rode in on. Who are you to get up on your soapbox and preach to the intended victims. “Now don’t over react. You might make them mad!” If you can’t find a sense of outrage over killers and liars and thieves, that’s your problem. You and Whoopi can resolve the situation with understanding and sympathy. And then they will ask you to blow your head off after your useful idiocy is complete. We’re not the ones cooking up chemicals and plots and destruction. Why should we jeopardize our safety at all? What have you done for us?

  48. ConceptJunkie Says:

    You know, with all the talk about the hypothetical reform of Islam that will supposedly allow it to move past the First Millennium and join the rest of us in the Third, I wonder how much of its basic teachings would need to be completely excised in order for this to happen.

    The interesting thing about the Christian reforms is that it wasn’t necessary to carve up the Bible to achieve it. I know some Protestants dumped a dozen books or so because they conflicted with those peoples’ interpretations of what were sometimes abstract or subtle theological concepts.

    No one had to, for instance, dump a chapter where, for example, Jesus called for violence against non-believers. No one had to acknowledge that Christ achieved his earthly power through murder and theft… because in fact Christ had no earthly power. No one has to sweep under the rug that as soon as Christianity’s founder died (then rose, then left) it immediately broke into an incredibly bloody chaos as multiple groups vied for power and control of its direction.

    The problem here, and the one I would dearly love to hear addressed by an intelligent, literate Muslim is how you can defend, leave alone practice, a belief system that is so thoroughly imbued with principles that are wholly incompatible with, even anathemic to, almost every other culture on the planet. Often literally, like the whole “submit or die” thing.

    I’m all for the idea of Islamic Reform, but I figure you’d half to eliminate huge swaths of the Koran and Hadiths, as well as most of the biography of the so-called “Prophet” to end up with something that approaches what the other 5 billion people on the planet generally consider to be “civilization” or at least “a way to live that doesn’t involve the constant call to dehumanize, subjugate and kill”. There are some really good bits in Islam, but they are completely lost in the other 80% of horror.

    That’s why while moderation among some Muslims is certainly real, I wonder in the end can it truly endure? It is very easy to show how the many injustices and atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are clearly contrary to Scripture, but what good does it do to “reform” a philosophy when the most grotesque aberrations done on its behalf are clearly and unequivocally condoned over and over again by its founder, who in fact is only supposed to be transcribing the verbatim words of the Almighty.

    Minus a few centuries around the end of the first millennium, Islam has throughout the world resulted nearly universally in trends towards (and often into) poverty, cultural decay and endemic violence. Given that we have over a thousand years of evidence of what results from this belief system, how tolerant do wise, prudent people have to be in tolerating it, knowing it is, based on its whole history a literal threat to their very existence?

    If I meet someone who is dressed like a biker and assume he is a criminal then I’m prejudging. Not everyone who dresses like a biker is a bad guy. I’ve certainly known some. But if I meet someone who is dressed like a biker bearing the insignia of Hell’s Angels or the Crips or some other group predominantly known to engage in criminal behavior then my distrust would be prudent even if it turns out the person is not criminal himself.

    Although the commentary above addressed “Somalis” as a source of immigrants who serve no good to America, it is not because of the country, its location or the race of its residents but their chosen and demonstrated behavior. Fearing or distrusting someone on the basis of skin color or other accidents of birth is rightly derided as irrational behavior. However, fearing or distrusting someone based on his expressed beliefs is not only rational, but wise and necessary to the survival of individual people and of human civilization.

    I wonder if “I Notice” is capable of understanding the difference. Let me spell it out in simple terms:

    1. Mohamed Osman Mohamud is a Muslim.
    2. Muslim teachings condone, and often call for, violence towards non-believers.
    3. Millions of Muslims have demonstrated consistently over 1300 years that they agree with and practice these teachings.
    4. It is reasonable to assume that if you are not Muslim, Mr. Mohamud might want to kill you… certainly an astronomically higher chance than Mary Margaret clutching her her rosary, Saul wearing his yarmulke, Ashoka meditating in the garden… need I continue?

  49. Occam's Beard Says:

    waltj, thank you for the correction. I’d forgotten that.

  50. gs Says:

    ConceptJunkie Says: That’s why while moderation among some Muslims is certainly real, I wonder in the end can it truly endure?…Given that we have over a thousand years of evidence of what results from this belief system, how tolerant do wise, prudent people have to be in tolerating it, knowing it is, based on its whole history a literal threat to their very existence? etc

    I don’t know the answers to those questions.

    I do know that militaristic nationalism has not meaningfully reappeared in Germany and Japan for 65 years–after those countries were completely and unambiguously defeated: not just defeated, crushed. Otoh, German militarism survived the defeat of WW1.

  51. Beverly Says:

    Didn’t Clinton invite some 10,000 Somalis to immigrate to the US AFTER they killed our soldiers and dragged them through the streets in the “Black Hawk down” incident?

    I wonder: would he and his cronies have felt the least bit responsible if this evil guy had succeeded in blowing innocent American families to bits? What’s wrong with these people?

  52. Beverly Says:

    Winston Churchill weighs in.

    Churchill certainly understood Islam. In his book The River War, written as long ago as 1899, he wrote this about the followers of Muhammad:

    “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

    “A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

    “Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities — but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

    “Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

    Let’s hope that Mark Steyn is too pessimistic about the fate of “Eurabia.”

    PS: “I Notice” is a fool and a blackguard, and it also has No trouble “hatin’ on Germans.” Hey, man, don’t be so judgemental.

  53. waltj Says:

    Ah, Concept Junkie, you hit on the crux of the issue. Whereas someone (Mencken, perhaps) once said, the the problem with Christianity is Christians, I’ll invert that and say that the problem with Muslims is Islam. The closer you get to the center of Islam, the more it can be seen to be a religion of conquest, violence, and intolerance. Not all Muslims view it that way, certainly, probably most do not, but then again, most Muslims are only passing familiar with the Quran and the Hadiths, and most do not speak the classical Arabic in which the Islamic scriptures are written. Those who study these scriptures most fervently are most often the ones who either commit violent acts themselves, or lead others to do so.

  54. Sergey Says:

    Non violent strain of Islam actually exists and is widely adopted in Central Asian states that were part of Russian Empire and USSR. It is called Sufi Islam. The problem here is that all mainstream schools of Islamic law consider Sufi heretics. These Sufi Muslim do not read Arabic, are ignorant about what Koran actually teaches, and in any dispute with educated Muslim scholar invariably are defeated. That is why Russian and other authorities have to firmly control this faith, install their own approved imams and persecute everybody else by brutal force, often using torture. Terrorism also can be contained by having mani agents-informers and agents-provocators by methods, successfully used by Okhranka and KGB. So, USA can, in principle, tame its Muslim population, but only adopting policies which are anathema to liberalism and even basic norms of Constitution.

  55. expat Says:

    Sergey,
    Doesn’t the violence of Islam have something to do with the pre-existing culture of its conquered people? One of the problems we now face is that the most primitive tribal culture of the Arabs is now asserting itself via Islam into areas that were once more moderate. Modern communications and globalization have brought the differences between the West and “pure” Islam into full view of people who were previously content to live their ordinary, rather isolated lives. Now they must choose.

    The macho Islamic worldview seems particularly appealing to young men with their high testosterone levels who in the West lack status acccording to Western values and who feel themselves to be losers. Who wants to be a Dearborn taxi driver with no women when he can be a glorious martyr on the road to meeting his celestial virgins? His father may prefer driving a taxi and having a full stomach, but the young who are here have always had food on the table. We need to counter the radical imams and internet portals that seek cannon fodder from this mileau, but instead we invite the recruiters into our multi-culti PC diversity commissions.

  56. Sergey Says:

    expat, this certainly is the case. When Islam arose in 7 century, most of Europe, Northern Africa and ME were already Christans. The only peoples that did not embrace Christianity were simply too tribal or too primitive to be receptive to its call, or have well-established and complex religious tradition, like Persian Zoroastrizm or Indian Hinduism and Buddism. Islam positioned itself as “a simple faith for simple people”, so it collected the most backward tribes as its core followers.

  57. waltj Says:

    …so it collected the most backward tribes as its core followers.

    It still does.

  58. Hong Says:

    True ‘Moderate Islam’ is still a fiction in need of writing. One writer interviewed on the Hoover Institute suggested an acid test where ‘Moderates’ were defined as those who agreed NEVER to implement Sharia law among believers or non-believers alike. I think that’s a good start and would weed out 99 percent of the self proclaimed ‘Moderates’.

  59. waltj Says:

    The Sharia question is an interesting one. Here in Indonesia, various surveys have been taken over the years among the Muslim population regarding Sharia. Some ridiculously high percentage, probably around 80, IIRC thinks Sharia is the “best” law. However, only about 50% thinks Sharia should be the law of the land. And in the last general election (April 2009), the best any “Islamic” party did was 7.88% (Prosperous Justice Party, or PKS, a party which specifically does not advocate Sharia). The best showing of the parties that explicitly advocated Sharia was the Crescent Star Party (PBB), coming in at a whopping 1.9% (yes, one-point-nine percent) of the vote, and thus below the 2.5% threshold needed to actually seat any members in the parliament. What this tells me is that Indonesian Muslims in general may look at Sharia as some nebulous ideal, but the when given the opportunity to make it a reality, i.e., at the voting booth, they run like hell in the other direction. Obviously, what’s true in this vast, diverse archipelago doesn’t necessarily apply to any other majority-Muslim country. But it’s at least somewhat heartening to me that Indonesian Muslims have no intention of sacrificing their hard-won freedoms to a harsh system that seeks unquestioned obedience above all else.

  60. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Hong—The enormous, and what I believe to be insurmountable problem here, is Muslim’s religiously sanctioned “Holy Deceptions” of Takiyya (dissimulation i.e.lying) and Kitman (withholding or partial truth), which Islamic practice says –and sometimes commands—are to be used by Muslims in all their dealings with unbelievers, if to do so will protect or advance the cause of an individual Muslim or of Islam (http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception ) .

    Given this deeply deceptive practice by Muslims, how can you trust that anything a Muslim might say, any promise, or oath they might swear to or sign, or even that the person they say they are and the life they are apparently leading is “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” for Takiyya even allows a Muslim to swear that he is not a Muslim, to curse Islam, and to apparently become a Christian if, in his heart, he remains faithful to Islam.

    Then, of course, we have the Muslim practice of “hudnas” i.e. temporary truces (although they may be sold to unbelievers as permanent peace agreements)—never intended to be permanent–that Muhammad recommended last no more than 10 years, and to be entered into when Muslims are in a weak position. The time gained by such hudnas is to be used by Muslims to rearm and strengthen themselves, preparatory to resuming warfare against the unbelievers.

  61. Richard Aubrey Says:

    A moderate Muslim is one who is moderately Muslim. He’s about 1SD from the middle between the fanatic whackjobs on one end and the Islamic version of Christmas/Easter Christians on the other.
    Whether that makes him “moderate” in the sense we would wish is independent of where he fetches up on the Islamic zealotry scale.
    Some progressive Muslims, including one who converted to Christianity, have said that there can be slacker Muslims, but a good Muslim must support jihad.

  62. Curtis Says:

    Two, for the moment, things steer me to “American politics is a big game meant to distract” and that the real power lies with the myriad one-world organizations. The latest thing is Sarah Palin. She really is a threat if the aforementioned is true because she believes in popular sovereignty. That she has come under attack by Barbara Bush, wife of “one-world” George “41″ Bush, is a clue. Who, ever, have you heard Barbara Bush disrespect? How abnormal! And how repulsive–like some sort of snake rearing its head from behind a throne. That one comment, so revealing: a hiss from the elite showing their disdain and hate towards the chattering classes.

    The second and earlier thing (again assuming the conspiracy to be true) is the top level cooperation between world governments and Muslims. Why Muslims (and their core, Arabs)? Because Islam is the perfect submission “religion” which demands the absorption of individual identity into a collective. The Nazis thought so. And Islam is a religion more close to Liberalism than to the other great world religions;, one, because it denies personality; and two, because it denies transcendence. Allah is not a personal God. He exists not for relationship or as a loving and caring creator, but solely as authority to subject. The one noble “variant”–of which Sergey instructs us–Sufi Islam, is not Islam at all.

    Christianity and Judaism, on the other hand, “celebrate” individual and personal identity wherein society is built of naturally occurring “stones” versus manufactured “bricks.”

    http://www.israpundit.com/archives/30474

  63. billm99uk Says:

    I think the dodge moderate Muslims use to get around the violence aspects of the Koran is that Mohamed was preaching during a time Islam was under threat and needed to defend itself. As Islam is now a fully established faith, violent jihad is no longer required.

    I can see two problems with that:

    (1) Because it fairly obvious is simply a dodge – it’s pretty obvious Mohamed meant what he said to be permanently and continuously applicable from the text, in theological arguments moderate Muslims invariably lose; and

    (2) Because Islam is interpreted at the individual level, there being no Islamic “Pope” figure to provide definitive spiritual guidance it doesn’t preclude individuals from deciding that their Imams simply don’t know anything about ‘proper’ Islam and going back to the (largely violent) Koranic version. Thus even if the prevailing views of Islam are the moderate type, you’re always going to get some level of terrorism. And as a previous poster pointed out, the “jihadic vision” has an awful lot of appeal to young Muslim men.

  64. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Curtis—Hate to rain on your parade but, historically and today, Sufis have the same view of, and are just as rabidly against unbelievers as the rest of the Muslim crew.

    Muslims confronted with the 15 thousand or so instances of terrorism by Muslims throughout the world –and those just since 9/11–and confronted by the words of various Muslim Imams, leaders and governments calling for Jihad and the slaughter of unbelievers, get a lot of mileage out of pointing to Sufis as mystical and peaceful, and supposedly much more representative of Islam as a whole. But whatever Sufi’s theological disagreements might be with other Muslims, that does not mean that they have any different views of or approaches to unbelievers.

    So, for instance, as I mentioned above, the Muslim terrorist who picked the target and planned the slaughter at the elementary school at Beslan was a Sufi, and some Sufis are in the forefront of the Jihad in Europe today.

    Here is a link to a very informative and well documented article by Andrew Bostom of a few years ago, that refuted the idea of the “peaceful” “mystical” Sufi (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/02/bostom-sufism-without-camouflage-beyond-stephen-schwartz.html .

  65. Curtis Says:

    Thank you, WB. It doesn’t rain on my parade at all to be corrected or confronted with facts. I took it on Sergey’s authority and a past impression I have on reading how in the 10th or 11th century a central Muslim authoritative person repudiated Sufi teachings and re-established and articulated Islam orthodoxy as we know it. The gist of it was that this was a missed chance at reform and growth. I have no doubt that Islam tries to use Sufism exactly as you describe: by pointing to the “mystical and peaceful Sufis as representative of mainstream Islam. Notwithstanding your facts, I think Sergey is correct as well that a non-violent strain of Islam exists where he stated in “Central Asian states that were part of Russian Empire and USSR,” and was called Sufi Islam. The ironic point I sought to emphasize was Sergey’s observation that these people weren’t “real” Muslims in the sense that they weren’t informed by Hadith and the Quran. I am now turning to the article you provided.

  66. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    The fact that our MSM, academic “experts” and government officials, even some members of our military have signed on to the supposed reality of illusory, “peaceful” Islam, is not only really frustrating, but is also obviously extraordinarily dangerous and the road to our destruction.

    But, the fact is that the more I have investigated, the more that I have learned about Islam, the more I have been convinced that there just is no perceived need for, nor desire for, nor is there a “reformist” wing in Islam–if by reform we are talking about the specific “reform” that we, as “unbelievers,” should all be vitally interested in–and that would be the “reform” of Islam’s view of, treatment, and intentions toward us unbelievers; there are no reform leaders or centers of any significance, no demonstrations for, no movements—popular or otherwise–or calls for reform among Muslims of how Islam views, treats, and intends to deal with unbelievers.

    In fact, a good case has been made that whatever “reforms” Islam has undergone were the reforms advocated and undertaken by the Muslim Brotherhood, starting in the late 1920s, when Muslims were urged by various Muslim ideologues like the Brotherhood’s Sayyid Qutb, to “get right with God” i.e. Allah, to return to the rigid, rabid, Islam of the early days, with its focus on Jihad against all us hated unbelievers, as the road back to Muslims and Islam regaining their power, their former position in the world, and their “agency.”

  67. Sergey Says:

    Wolla, now, Beslam massacre was planned by so-called Kavkaz Jammalat, a branch of Al-Qaeda. Chechens and Ingush insurgents never were Sufi, their ringleaders were Arabs: Abu Omar, a Wahhabi warlord, and other Arab emissary trained in Saudy Arabia.

  68. Sergey Says:

    All insurgency at North Caucasus is planned and funded by Muslim Brothehood, Al-Qaeda and affiliated groups from Saudi Arabia. See
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Omar_al-Saif

  69. Curtis Says:

    That’s the truth. And no wonder tea party people are pissed off when we are asked to accept these big lies. What really strikes my fire is the liberal’s use of the perverted “separation of church and state” doctrine for Christians and Jews and then laying down like some supine bitch to an alpha male and accommodating every Muslim demand and lawsuit. A liberal: Cocker Spaniels every one! Grovel to the master and bite all the others that want to crowd around.

    I re-watched Holder being asked if radical Islam may have been a factor in inciting some of the attacks against us. What a Nimrod. After repeated attempts to evade the question, he finally stated a “may.”

    In the article you provided is a reference to Al-Ghazali, the person I referenced in my comment. I googled several articles on Al-G and they do exactly what you described: present Al-Ghazali as a synthesizer of Sufi and Orthodox Islam–which means the most important person in Islam besides Mohammed was this amazing mixture of science and reason with a loving mixture of mystic reverence for us all as we draw into the one. What I need is a good source about Al-Ghazali so if anyone has one, please provide!

  70. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    From the article by Bostom I provided a link to above, here is the glorious 12th century al-Gizali quoted on the duty of Muslims have to go on Jihad against the unbelievers, and how unbelievers who have been subjugated by Muslims and made into second class citizens, “dhimmis,” should be dealt with:

    “[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…

    [T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]… They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle[-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue…. “[2] (From the Wagjiz, written in 1101 A.D.

  71. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    The real problem, as I see it, is that too many of our leaders, both civilian and military, are not well educated in the facts of Islam. Many seem to accept that Islam is a “religion of peace” and that the terrorists are a small minority of fundamentalists.

    It seems that the majority fo Muslims are not well schooled in the Quran and get their information from imams, many of whom are schooled in using the violent parts of the Quran to try to stir up jihad.

    It seems to me that there are many Muslims who just want to live their lives and be left alone. If that weren’t true, we would have not had the success (albeit less than perfect) we have had in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those two countries are near 100% Muslim and yet most fo the people there are friendly and to our forces and just want to get on with their lives.

    It’s my opinion that the big mistake our political leaders are making is not openly stating that the Islamic doctrines of sharia, violence against infidels, violent conversion, taqiya, and kitman make it impossible for us to treat Islam other than as an enemy force until they have reformed and become a religion of tolerance and real peace. To announce this openly and repeatedly would, I believe, be a service to both sides. It would put the Muslims on notice that we are not ever going to accept their jihadi doctrines. This should always be put in the perspective that we seek no war, no territory, no conversion to another religion, or anything except peace and tolerance between all peoples. That puts the ball in the Muslim court. It gets it out in the open where all citizens understand the issues and as well as putting Islam on notice.

    There is at least one moderate Muslim who is seeking to reform Islam. His name is Zhudi Jasser. To learn more about him go here:
    http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/members.php?id=8

  72. Tom Says:

    JJ:
    It is hard for me to accept that so many of “Our leaders” should be less informed than we are. That may once have been true , but today?
    Do you really think GWB still thinks of Islam as a “religion of peace” today? Or his daddy? Or Mr. Cheney? The Clintons?
    Of course Baraq and buddy Holder are in a different group. They support militant Islam because we, their subjects, are dhimmis already, to them.
    There is something more going on. These folks are not all vapid Prince Charleses.

  73. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    Tom,
    I’m reading W’s book and have finished the chapters on 9/11, Afghanistan, and the Iraq invasion. Not once does he hint at anything other than what he said in many speeches. Namely, that a small minority of fundamentalists were giving Islam a bad name.

    I believe this is the conventional wisdom in D.C. They are very much under the thrall of PC thinking. It’s like General Casey saying that diversity in the Armed Forces is more important than identifying the shooter at Ft. Hood, Major Hasan as a Muslim and as being motivated by jihadi ideas. The people in D.C. live in terror of being called racists or intolerant. They are very loathe to call the Muslims out on their doctrines. But I could be wrong. There may be something else going on, but it eludes me as to what it is.

  74. gs Says:

    J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says: There may be something else going on, but it eludes me as to what it is.

    My suspicion: massive bribery by the Saudis and other Gulf states.

    Probably not wads of cash in paper bags, but “speaking fees”, “consulting fees”, etc.

  75. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    gs,
    You may well be onto something there. The Saudis and other Gulf States do have $ome influence. Egad, ha$ it come to thi$? $old out for $$$$.

  76. Tom Says:

    The issue is whether “our leaders” believe what they say to us. Of course they do not. They’d have to be dumber than stopped clocks. So there’s something(s) else afoot. I did not read GWB’s book because he bows to pc. There are many things he knows and believes that he will not say.

  77. Beverly Says:

    Non violent strain of Islam actually exists and is widely adopted in Central Asian states that were part of Russian Empire and USSR. It is called Sufi Islam.

    Good old Sufi Muslims! those wonderful folks who brought us the Beslan schoolchildren’s massacre!

  78. Beverly Says:

    $$$?
    Parcel of Rogues in a Nation

    Farewell to all our Scottish fame,
    Farewell our ancient glory;
    Farewell to even our Scottish name
    So famed in song and story.
    Now Sark runs over the Solway sands,
    An’ Tweed runs to the ocean…
    To mark where England’s Province stands:
    Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

    What force or guile could not subdue
    Thro’ many warlike ages,
    Is wrought now by a coward few
    For hireling traitor’s wages.
    The English steel we could disdain,
    Secure in valour stationed.
    But English gold has been our bane:
    Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

    Oh, would ere had I seen the day
    That treason thus could sell us,
    My auld grey head had lain in clay,
    With Bruce and loyal Wallace!
    But, faith and power, till my last hour,
    I’ll make this declaration:
    We were bought and sold for English gold!
    Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

    – Robert Burns

  79. Sergey Says:

    Beverly, you simply ignored my comment at 2.41 pm. North Caucausus in not Central Asia, Chechens and Ingush are not Sufi. This insurgency is directly imported from Saudi Arabia and is inspired by Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam. Referencies to 12 century scholar al-Ghizali (Persian, not Arab) who attempted to reconcile Sufi and Sunni Islam are irrelevant to present day situation. This attempt failed, both Sunni and Shia rejected it. They both see Sufi as heresy, as non-Islam, and rightly so. But for millions of Tatars, Usbek and Tajik nationals in Russia this Sufi Islam is the only school they respect, since it makes great allowances to cherished national traditions of these ethnicities, so-called Ajats, of their pre-Islamic past, and in practice Ajats replace Sharia as a common law for them.

  80. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    P.S.—I have one degree in History, have taken many classes in history, and read a fair amount of history too, and even though there may not be an occult, “Secret History of the World” like that in the enjoyable and interesting “Repairman Jack” novels (http://www.repairmanjack.com/), as I moved deeper into my research into Islam I realized that there was a type of “Secret History of the World,” in the sense that what had been the standard, commonly agreed on “History” of a few generations ago regarding Islam and Muslims had now been “hidden,” was no longer acknowledged, referenced, or referred to, and had been replaced, “switched out” with a whole new “History,” and certain historical realities, understandings, conclusions, and topics the old history had encompassed, taught, and taken as true and for granted were now just blanks, did not exist, were and are just not discussed or referred to today.

    Obama and Bill Ayers good friend, the far Left, anti-Semitic “Palestinian” Edward W. Said, a Professor at Columbia, played a key role in accelerating this replacement when his 1979 book “Orientalism,” buoyed up and given overwhelming force by the incoming tide of far Left Postmodern thought, “anti-Imperialism,” and “post–colonialism,” was instrumental in destroying–seemingly overnight–what had been our school of traditional Middle Eastern experts, the “Orientalists.”

    It was primarily Said and his followers and successors who discredited/caused to be forgotten not only the Orientalist school—whose members were gradually forced out of Academia, to retire into oblivion–but also the whole corpus of works they had written, which were the product of the knowledge and experience Orientalists had accumulated over several hundred years, was based on their knowledge of Arabic and the other languages of the Umma, on their translations of and deep familiarity with the Qur’an and other Muslim religious, juridical and other literature, and also derived from the Orientalist’s first hand observations of Islam and Muslims in the countries of the Umma, and of Islam and Muslims interactions with us in the West. Along with these things Said and his followers and successors also banished and relegated to the dim and dusty bowels of our libraries the Orientalist’s skeptical, wary, and pessimistic evaluation—I would rather say “realistic” evaluation—of Islam and Muslims.

    Meanwhile, Said and his acolytes and successors in the Academy—with a lot of help from the hundreds of millions of dollars in “donations” that, beginning in 1977, the Saudis and other Muslim regimes began to pour into U.S. Academia—acted as “gatekeepers,” keeping out the old Orientalist viewpoint and ideas, and helped to create the like-minded cadres of new “experts” on the Middle East and Islam–who have a much more sanguine view of Islam and Muslims–that now dominate Middle East studies in America and the West, and to spread, and perpetuate their new, and our current, “History.”

    Thus, for instance, the New Testament contains the letters of Paul the Apostle to the churches in Antioch, Alexandria, Egypt, Damascus and elsewhere yet, I cannot recall being told or reading—until a year or two ago—what exactly happened to the various outposts of the ancient Christian Church, and to the vibrant majority Christian civilizations that had peacefully spread and flourished throughout the Middle East (in Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jerusalem (Iran was majority Zoroastrian) and in North Africa (today’s Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya) in the centuries after Jesus; in the History I was taught Rome Fell, Byzantium was barely mentioned, we jumped to the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages–with us Christians often depicted as somehow at fault for and the aggressors in the Crusades–and then it was on to the Renaissance and events thereafter.

    What I discovered in my research on Islam was that Islam “happened” to the ancient Christian civilizations of the Middle East and North Africa. After Muhammad’s death in 632 A.D. fierce, largely illiterate Muslim Bedouin warriors erupted out of the Arabian Peninsula, and in a furious century of warfare, blood, destruction, rape, theft, and conquest, they conquered, destroyed and occupied those ancient Christian civilizations and those outposts—a good portion of the then known world–and Muslims occupy all of those nations today.

    Then, there was the Muslim’s conquest and destruction—after 800 years of trying–of the Holy Roman (Byzantine) Empire, which resulted in such a massive disruption and diminution of commerce, trade, and travel in and around the Mediterranean that some historians today theorize it may have been the precipitating event that brought on the Dark Ages. Somehow, we never studied the Byzantines that much, and I certainly don’t recall any emphasis or lingering on the fact that it was Muslims who destroyed the Byzantine Empire, and what the consequences might have been.

    Although I had been taught, and was vaguely aware that there were, what I got the impression were small scale, occasional, and sporadic Muslim raids against Europe over the centuries, digging deeper, I discovered that Muslim armies and raiding parties had spent the good part of a thousand years raiding, despoiling, spreading fear and destruction, holding areas at ransom (Jizya), sometimes occupied, captured slaves from, and generally “terrorized” much of the Mediterranean and Europe; not the impression I was given or what I was taught in college.

    Hell, Muslim armies had to be stopped from penetrating into and taking over Western Europe at Tours outside Paris in the 8th century, and in Central Europe at Vienna in the 16th and again in the 17th century, and also at sea off Greece at the Battle of Lepanto in the 16th century as well. Muslim raiding parties reached the borders of Germany and Switzerland, for a time there was even a home base for Muslim raiders at Arles in France, and, once, Muslim raiders went up the Tiber, sacked the Church of Sts. Peter and Paul in Rome and, for a time, forced the Pope to pay “protection money” i.e. Jizya (see Andrew Bostom, ed. “The Legacy of Jihad,” 2005, Prometheus Books).

    Not only was Spain occupied by Muslims for 800 years (a piece of information I was taught, but not taught just how bloody and repressive the Muslim occupation of Spain really was), but, in addition, Portugal was also occupied by Muslims for 600 years, as were Greece for 500 years, Sicily for 300 years, Serbia for 400 years, Bulgaria for 500 years, Rumania 400 years, and Hungary for 150 years-events I don’t ever remember being taught about (see Paul Fregosi’s “Jihad in the West: Muslim Conquests from the 7th to the 21st Centuries,” 1998, Prometheus Books). Muslims raided the Italian and French coasts so frequently that the Italians and French constructed a series of watchtowers along what is now the French and Italian Rivieras to keep a watch on the seaward approaches and to raise the alarm about incoming raids by Muslim “corsairs,” some of whose ruins still stand today. Muslims raided Europe so frequently and were so feared, that there was a special prayer “against the Saracens” that was said at each mass in Europe for hundreds of years.

    Then, of course, there was Muslim’s conquest of Anatolia i.e. what had been a Christian Turkey, and the movement of Muslim armies and raiding parties into Eastern Europe and the Baltics, probing and pushing further and further West, into the European landmass. There were battles by various groups of indigenous “unbelievers” against Muslim armies and raiding parties in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Sicily, Austria, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Hungary, Romania, Wallachia, Albania, Moldavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Armenia, Georgia, Poland, the Ukraine, and eastern and southern Russia. Have you ever heard of this history, and of the depth and breadth of these thousand years of Muslim caused violence, destruction, and terror in Europe and the Mediterranean? Until very recently, I hadn’t. And we are not even counting Islam’s extremely bloody attempts—that killed many tens of millions of Hindus–to conquer India, or how Muslims basically exterminated Buddhism in Central Asia.

    Of the thousand year plus, world-spanning Muslim slave trade (that still continues today in the Sudan, and in Nigeria, and, apparently, elsewhere in the Muslim world)—predecessor and pattern for the relatively brief 300 year long and smaller Atlantic slave trade I was taught about and knew of–my histories spoke nothing. Of the estimated 17,000,000 slaves captured, transported, warehoused, and sold by Muslims in the Muslim slave markets of Alexandria, and Mecca, Damascus, Algiers, Tunis, Tripoli and elsewhere, of the estimated 1.5 million “white” slaves who were taken captive from Europe (see http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/islam-slavery-and-rape/), taken captive by Muslim raiders in the Mediterranean and on the Continent, and from the coasts of England and Ireland, Scotland, and as far away as Iceland—the history I was taught also said nothing (see Giles Milton’s book, “White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pillow and Islam’s One Million White Slaves,” Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2004). Moreover, of the staggering number, of the total of 280,000,000 unbelievers who, according to one estimate based on Muslim sources, died as a result of Muslim’s Jihad against us “unbelievers” over the last 1,400 years, I, again, heard nothing.

    Closer to our modern day, while I do remember a brief mention in American history class of the “Barbary Pirates,” I don’t believe that anyone emphasized that they were Muslims, and certainly no one bothered to place their Jihadi attacks in the context of the prior 1,200 years of Muslim Jihad against us unbelievers, or considered it important to tell us what the Founding Fathers, and especially what Sam Adams and Thomas Jefferson thought about them, or about how the Pirate’s demand for “Jizya” forced the Congress of our new and struggling country to pay 10%, and in some years 20% of our entire national budget out in gold as protection money, so that the pirates would stop their attacks against our absolutely critical sea trade, and would stop capturing and/or destroying our ships, stealing their cargoes, and selling their crews and passengers into slavery.

    I was never told or was aware until recently that Thomas Jefferson worked for almost 20 years to bring into being a United States Navy and Marines that finally sailed over to North Africa, to Tripoli, in the early 1800s, and conducted a successful ten year campaign to wipe out the Pirates. Nor did my teachers think it relevant or important to tell me what the representative of the Pirates told Jefferson and Adams, when they asked him why the Pirates were attacking the ships of a newly founded country that had not done them any harm, to wit:

    “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their [Islam’s] authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.” ( see http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_2_urbanities-thomas_jefferson.html).

    So, yes, I did discover that—with regard to Muslims and their history of almost 1,400 years, particularly as it relates to their interactions with and Jihad against all us “unbelievers”–there is, indeed, a “Secret History of the World.”

  81. kolnai Says:

    Did you all see Holder’s press conference on the Oregon bomber?

    (paraphrase) “We acknowledge that there is a small group of individuals who seek to do us harm.”

    From a certain complex, dynamic culture, perhaps?

    God, Holder makes my skin crawl.

  82. Curtis Says:

    Great summary, WB. Why don’t you write a little primer with some sources? I would certainly read it and pass it around.

  83. Sgt. Mom Says:

    Wolla – thanks for the brisk run down of ‘hidden history’ – that history which runs counter to PC pieties.
    In the last couple of months, I’ve discovered a ‘hidden history’ on a minor scale, while researching local history for my next book – a book set in Republic-era Texas. It’s been eye-opening, discovering that for the ten years between the Texas War for Independence, and annexation by the US, there was a constant series of provocations and even military expeditions into Texas. One of them struck San Antonio in 1842; the district court was in session, and every white male present for it – judge, attorneys, plaintiffs and witnesses – was taken prisoner into Mexico and spent two years in prison at hard labor. Other Texans taken as prisons of war were executed by lottery. And there were some tremendously ugly incidents instigated by the government of Mexico during that period … but weirdly, all one hears in the popular history is how very racist and imperialist the white Texans were.

  84. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Curtis–here’s an annotated bibliography I whipped up awhile ago:

    A Crash Course in Islam:

    Andrew G. Bostom, ed. “The Legacy of Jihad”–A comprehensive look at the history of Muslim warfare and aggression against non-believers, taken mostly from Muslim accounts themselves.

    Any of Robert Spencer’s books–”The Truth About Muhammad,” “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades,” “The Myth of Islamic Tolerance,” etc.

    The Saudi printed and distributed translation of the Qur’an titled “The Noble Qur’an” by Hilali and Khan in one volume; a small hardback also containing summaries of the views of Al-Tibari, Al-Qurtubi, Ibn Kathur and comments by Al-Bukhari on each verse of the Qur’an (available on Amazon.com). What American Muslims are being taught from and reading and not one of the softer versions apologists like to quote.

    The Center for the Study of Political Islam (http://www.cspipublishing.com/) has made reading and understanding the Qur’an, the Hadiths and Sira much easier because it has published an inexpensive paperback set of the core documents of Islam—the Qur’an, and the two other documents that supply the context and background one needs to make much of the Qur’an intelligible–the principle Hadiths (the Words and Deeds of the Prophet and His Companions) and the Sira (Ibn Ishaq’s Biography of the Prophet). Moreover, the scholars at CSPI have rearranged and cross-referenced these fundamental texts to make them more intelligible and also translated them into very easily understood newspaper level English. Reading these three documents will arm you, as nothing else can, for the task of sorting truths from fictions; fictions that could get a lot of us killed. Citations are included to the original texts Muslims use so that readers can check to see that the CSPI translations do not omit or distort the original texts. (You can find even cheaper copies of these texts on Amazon).

    Al Misri’s “Umdat al-Salik” translated as “Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law” written in the 14th century but in 1991 declared by the highest authority in Sunni Islam, Cairo’s Al-Azhar University, as conforming “to the practice and faith of the orthodox Sunni community” in today’s world. Why, because it tells you what the mainstream Muslim authorities tell Muslims they should do, how they should behave, in all sorts of situations they may encounter in their lives. How should a Muslim behave if he is questioned by an Infidel, say in Iraq, about the whereabouts of a fellow Muslim or the weapons he might have hidden in that Muslim’s house? al-Misri tells you what a good Muslim should do. Hint, as a good Muslim you ain’t telling the Infidel dog anything that would harm a fellow Muslim or Islam.

    Intelligence Analyst Maj. Stephen Coughlin’s excellent analysis of doctrinal basis for Jihad, based on primary Muslim religious documents, doctrines and jurisprudence, titled, “To Our Great Detriment”: Ignoring What Extremists Say About Jihad” (http://www.strategycenter.net/docLib/20080107_Coughlin_ExtremistJihad.pdf)

    Reportage about the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan) 1991 strategy document, introduced without objection at the Federal Government’s recent Holy Land Foundation terrorism funding trial, in which they said the following:

    “The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all religions”

    Or reportage about the lessons in hating unbelievers taught Muslims at Saudi funded mosques and schools here in America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769.html and http://www.hudson.org/files/pdf_upload/Excerpts_from_Saudi_Textbooks_715.pdf).

    Raymond Ibrahim’s absolutely essential article on the Muslim doctrines of Deception–Takiyya (dissimulation) and Kitman (partial truth), and the key Qur’anic interpretation tool of “naskh” or Abrogation at (http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war), and his “Al Qaeda Reader.”

    A. Guillaume, transl. “The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s “Sirat Rasul Allah”” (The earliest, most accepted and revered biography of Muhammad)

    Mary Habeck, “Knowing the Enemy” (Short but informative analysis of fundamentalist ideology with quotations from the major Muslim ideologues whose ideas fuel terrorism–Wahab, al-Banna and Qutb.)

    Books by Bat Ye’or–”Islam and Dhimmitude,” “The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam,” “The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam’” “Eurabia”

    Paul Fregosi, “Jihad in the West; Muslim Conquests From the 7th to the 21st century”

    Giles Milton, “White Gold: The Extraordinary Story of Thomas Pillow and Inslam’s One Million White Slaves” Book about the Muslim slave trade, that no one wants to talk about.

    Serge Trifkovic’s “The Sword of the Prophet,” and “Defeating Jihad: How the War on Terror May Yet Be Won, In Spite of Ourselves”

    Ibn Warraq, “Why I am No A Muslim”

    MEMRI.org’s website. Why? Because MEMRI collects, presents, translates and analyzes a wide variety of material from the media in the Muslim world–sermons from major Mosques, TV shows, government statements, speeches, reports. People in the West have preconceived notions and assumptions about how people behave based on their experiences in western democratic societies. Thus, based on our experiences at our local church or synagogue, it is inconceivable to many of us that Muslim Imams would deliver sermons in Mosques all over the Muslim world labeling “Christians and Jews as the spawn of pigs and apes,” in which the destruction of Israel is called for and war against unbelievers is a frequent topic or that Sesame Street-like children’s shows in Egypt and Palestine tell Muslim children that their highest ambition should be to be suicide bombers and die for Islam–MEMRI is a real eye opener.

    * I have bought all the books cited through Amazon.com or their allied booksellers.

  85. Curtis Says:

    Excellent WB and thank you very much!

  86. Richard Saunders Says:

    We are not engaged in a new war — this is just the real First World War, on hiatus for 350 yearsd and no started up again.

  87. Richard Saunders Says:

    Oops! Bad keyboard, bad!

    We are not engaged in a new war — this is just the real First World War, on hiatus for 350 years and now started up again.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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