January 11th, 2011

So, why did no one report Loughner to the Arizona mental health system?

Sometimes when murders happen, the neighbors and people in the community who knew the perpetrator beforehand say he’d just been a quiet, nondescript person who’d always minded his own business.

Not so Jared Loughner. He was telegraphing signs of distress, disturbingly chaotic thinking, and menace to all and sundry. A great many people who knew him—or had encountered him, if only briefly—before he let loose on Saturday and became a mass murderer, have said they were not at all surprised when the killer’s identity was revealed to be Jared.

So why did his behavior not capture the attention of the mental health authorities in Arizona prior to the killings? After all, it’s not as though that would have been difficult to do; Arizona is a state with laws that encourage and facilitate such reporting for the purposes of involuntary evaluation and possible commitment:

Any person, including any of the students in Loughner’s classes who exchanged worried emails about his strange actions or any of his teachers who sought to have him removed or who wanted him to receive treatment, could have petitioned the court to have him evaluated for mental illness.

Unlike other states, which require that someone be an imminent danger to themselves or others before seeking to have them involuntarily committed for psychiatric evaluation and treatment, in Arizona, one need only be “persistently or acutely” ill.

I’m wondering whether it’s commonly known among the citizens of Arizona that they have this right. I’m wondering whether those who encountered Loughner’s disturbing behavior thought someone else might report him instead, or already had. I’m wondering whether they were afraid that, if they reported him, he’d find out and come to take revenge on them. I’m wondering what his parents thought was going on, how much they noticed, and what they tried.

[ADDENDUM: Dr. Helen has more to say, including offering the following quotes from the journals of fellow students of Loughner’s. This was no ordinary case of a slightly wacky student, as you will see:

From June 10:
“As for me, Thursday means the end to week two of algebra class. It seems to be going by quickly, but then I do have three weeks to go so we’ll see how I feel by then. Class isn’t dull as we have a seriously disturbed student in the class, and they are trying to figure out how to get rid of him before he does something bad, but on the other hand, until he does something bad, you can’t do anything about him. Needless to say, I sit by the door.”

From June 14:
“We have a mentally unstable person in the class that scares the living crap out of me. He is one of those whose picture you see on the news, after he has come into class with an automatic weapon. Everyone interviewed would say, Yeah, he was in my math class and he was really weird. I sit by the door with my purse handy. If you see it on the news one night, know that I got out fast…”

Loughner was escorted out of school by police and asked not to return because of his behavior.]

[ADDENDUM II: As far as the parents go, they are “devastated and guilt-ridden,” according to a neighbor.]

48 Responses to “So, why did no one report Loughner to the Arizona mental health system?”

  1. camojack Says:

    Most people just don’t want to get involved. 🙁

  2. Sergey Says:

    There were really scary notes of his classmates and professors:
    They expected from him shooting rampage, but failed to report.

  3. turfmann Says:

    It was Sarah Palin’s responsibility to notify the authorities.

    A responsible half-term quitting Governor that bears her daughter’s child and kills animals indiscriminately should know this.

    I say we sue.

  4. daniel Says:

    Speaking from experience…

    As a platoon leader in the Army back in 83, one of my troops was ultimately committed to a mental institute “probably for life” according to the doc. He was diagnosed with something-schizo-something and had voices in his head, acute paranoia and a bunch of other stuff. Part of the process involved interviews with his leadership, which included me, and we eventually got to the part where the doc looks at me and says,

    “so why didn’t you report these things to your CO? Weren’t these behaviors setting off bells and whistles?”

    To which my reply was “I did” and “No”. Even when we found him in the darkest of nights in the middle of the Alaskan rainforest, hiding from us and murmuring about being Jesus Christ, we still just thought he was a fruitcake. That’s a non-technical term, but it works for me just as much as it worked for the rest of us. Up to that point, there was never any indication that the kid needed any help and we just thought he was a nut (I think that’s a technical term) and just one more of the many bizarre people we meet in our lives. That night, I talked to my CO, but he just thought I was exaggerating or wanted to get rid of a problem soldier and nothing happened.

    Point of fact, he was my best troop. He was wholly reliable, did exactly as told and did everything with concentrated effort. All the behaviors he exhibited were spread out over the course of a year or more and were just the kind of behaviors that make you think something was wrong, but nothing more than that.

    Fortunately, when law enforcement became involved it was because of the very minor offense of going awol and locking himself in a hotel room. But once the cops got involved, his behavior went south very quickly and it was then that he was pulled up to the seventh ward at Elmendorf. The doc said we got lucky.

    Untrained people generally recognize that they are untrained. I can tell when a person has a broken arm, and know when to take that person to the hospital. I don’t, however, know when a person is bonkers enough to be taken to the hospital because there are plenty of us out there, each with our own unique brand of crazy.

    I also would not want people to know that they have this power to refer people to mental health authorities. Once that happens, the burden of proof is going to be on the accused and that can be an unacceptable intrusion on a person’s life just because his classmate thinks he’s a little wierd.

    Anyway, that’s my two cents.

  5. Sergey Says:

    Easy access to guns for everybody and factual disability of US psychiatry to take any preventive measures make a dangerous combination. One of these must go. The most usual suspects of planning shooting, sociopaths and paranoid schizophrenics, are the least expected to voluntary submit themselves to psychiatric help. So teachers, GP and social service workers should be educated to identify the first signs of mental instability and encouraged to report their suspicions to mental health specialists.

  6. SteveH Says:

    Who possibly wants an uber powerful psychiatric bureacracy, which would by default be liberal infested and politically motivated, deciding what amounts to future crime clairvoyance? Nahhhh…Nothing could go wrong there.

    I can’t believe i hear conservatives even entertaining such a thought. Who on earth thinks that what happened Saturday was predictable by any reliable standard? Well that’s a no brainer. It wasn’t. And it never will be.

    If you think the world is just too dangerous because enough rules to curtail evil in the heats of people aren’t in place, i got some beach front property in Kansas i’d like to sell you.

  7. Mr. Frank Says:

    Over the past forty years or so there has been a slow increase in the number of “strange” and/or scary college students. Schools have gotten much bigger and admission and retention standards have declined. Female instructors are particularly affected by stalkers, a frightening experience. Female students can also run into problems from stalkers.

    It is not reasonable to expect an individual to deal with such a problem alone. There must be an institutional response. You may recall that the Virginia Tech shooter had intimidated his English instructor, but nothing official was done to remove him.

  8. Artfldgr Says:

    they cant report him. As i read the leftist Cohen (from france) pontificating our gun culture allowing such a wacko, the disconnect became glaringly evident.

    the old opressive world they repaired with an all encompassing equality (as feminists declare and now are upset in england that they cant pick men to handle mental patients but have to get in there and have their jaws broken and be stabbed just like the men or face legal issues), they removed our societies ability to culturally and morally restrict (oppress) someone due to any reason, INCLUDING MEDICAL.

    in the old days, the local gun dealers would have said, no way, I DON’T HAVE TO SELL TO YOU IF I DON’T WANT TO. today they HAVE To sell to him if they cant find some legal reason to do so, otherwise they are discriminatory and so on and so forth.

    after all, if a mental condition is not a defense then it certainly cant really be a reason for infringement. We do not have anticipatory law, since we do not have totalitarianism.

    society lost the FREEDOM to make such judgments outside of the control of legal authority as a replacement of social responsibility.

    the shop keeper CANT refuse to sell by LAW, and so cant really be held responsible. our lack of social freedom is our lack of our ability to use our own judgment at the location where that judgment would do best.

    for a gun dealer to say, i dont know you, i wont sell to you, is forbidden by law. for a gun dealer to say, i DO know you and i wont sell to you, is ALSO forbidden by law.

    ergo, ipso facto, the crime could not be prevented or mitigated as there was no freedom to move in a way that could accomplish that. acting on prediction is abrogating rights, just as acting on someones homosexuality as an indicator of certain tendencies is not allowed.

    i wish to point out one more thing

    the most heinous crimes we see are NOT committed by the insane or sick! they are usually committed by sane people who either act out of character for a burst, or with malice of forethought proceed to do what they do…

    standing between a sane person with that will and what they want, is how you end up dead.

    this killer was NOT insane or sick. he may not have had a clear cogent ability to logically think, but neither do most of the students who ahve passed through progressive liberal command control central education. (with him passing through an Ayers Obama tweaked school).

    insane people cant put such together and execute it well, they are dysfunctional. we WANT him to be insane, especially the left, beause then the world is this neat thing where only crazies do things and we can relax about the sane.

    their overwhelming desire for a simple schema to live by that they dont have to think about is the real source of much social issue problems and much crime.

  9. Jim Nicholas Says:

    Why would persons not take advantage of Arizona’s more enlightened law regarding evaluation?

    When I served as a psychiatrist in the emergency room 50 plus years ago, I could admit a patient for 72 hours upon my own medical judgment that he or she was dangerous to self or others. If a longer hospitalization was needed, someone had to file an affidavit and get an order from a judge to extend the hospitalization. These were the reasons given for not filing that affidavit–reasons that are probably just as common today.

    Fear of loss of love (mainly family and friends).
    Fear of hatred and retaliation (everyone).
    Fear of being wrong or exaggerating the danger and ending up as a defendant in a law suit (mainly non-family).
    Getting involved takes time: filing an affidavit, testifying in court (mainly non-family).

    Note that these were reasons given after the patient was in the hospital and diagnosed as having a psychiatric illness. They would apply even more if a friend, family member, associate, or stranger did not have the backing of a physician’s recommendation and the reassurance that the patient was already confined in a hospital and not able to retaliate, at least immediately.

  10. Sergey Says:

    Acute psychosis is not something dificult to diagnose, usially it is quite transparent. Paranoid delusions are very stereotypical in both form and content. How many peple, do you think, were kept in lunatic asylums in 60-s and 70-s without serious reason? My guess, not many. Such attack on government official is an act of terror, hardly different from any other act of terror, and requires adequate response. Only adequate response to terrorism is prevention, as a rule, based on intelligence gathering and infiltration by secret agents of FBI. Psychiatric survilliance

  11. Sergey Says:

    should be based on the same principles, use secret agents and tips from neigbours, classmates, family, teachers, etc. Psychiatry is a modern days equivalent of Inquisition, serves the same purpose and should use the best methods of the former.

  12. Tom Says:

    I think it is asking more than a bit much for a fellow student or a teacher to petition an AZ court to deal with Jared based on classroom nuttiness.

  13. Diane Viewing Says:

    From personal experience, I can tell you that Arizona requires someone to swear an affidavit that a “mentally ill” person is a danger to self or others before being involuntarily committed.

  14. Curtis Says:

    The number one reason: It’s not my job, it’s the governments job. The government educates my kids, puts me to work, feeds me, nurses me, and finally, buries me.

    The other reasons such as I don’t care, fear the cost of involvement, didn’t think it was that serious, and so on, all fall far short of the failure of those in responsibility who were actually supposed to have done something and didn’t.

    Come to think of it, one word works well: sloth.

  15. SteveH Says:

    I grow weary of how sensational media coverage of events can make people jump through reactionary and irrational hoops. As though we live in a world on Friday that apparently has its priorities all wrong because the endless possibilities of Saturday haven’t enlightened us yet.

    This has turned us into some sort of whack-a-mole society. Where the infinite possibilities of Tuesday should not have been neglected on Monday, because that puts us behind for Wednesday’s neglect made manifestly apparent on Thursday.

  16. suek Says:

    Here’s an interesting angle:


  17. neo-neocon Says:

    Tom: I don’t think it’s too much at all. Please read the addendum and see what you think.

  18. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr: I thought I heard on the news that Loughner tried to buy ammo in a Walmart’s and was refused because of his behavior in the first one in which he tried. He went to another, and was able to purchase it.

    So stores appear to retain some sort of autonomy and judgment on this, but it seems haphazard and spotty. I think they’d be in more trouble if they refused to sell based on race, religion, etc., But for a refusal based on weird behavior they might be protected?

  19. neo-neocon Says:

    Mr. Frank: but that’s what I mean. The students knew, the teachers knew, and the school most definitely knew, as did the police who escorted him out under guard. There should have been an institutional response, even if no individual could or would do it.

  20. neo-neocon Says:

    SteveH: read the addendum; it didn’t take clairvoyance at all. In this case, many people were aware.

    I’m not talking about preventive detention. I’m talking about treatment, with perhaps an involuntary evaluation if need be, based on his behavior that was widely perceived as a threat.

  21. neo-neocon Says:

    daniel: again, I refer you to the addendum. This was not an ordinary case of a little bit of strangeness. Also, if you listen to his professors in addition to the students, practically everyone was afraid this guy would go off and kill people one day, and pretty soon at that. A situation like that is quite different from someone thinking someone is a little strange. A situation like that requires a psychiatric evaluation. And for that, someone has to report him.

  22. Curtis Says:

    “Whack-a-mole society!” Definitely a keeper SteveH. Describes our airport security very well.

    I commented earlier that this event is our “night of the long knives,” event. That might be overstating things, but the parallel is there. Krystalnacht was, in part, a response to the November 7, 1938 shooting of Ernst Vom Rath. Hitler ordered a pogrom and most consider this event and its aftermath the beginning of the Final Solution.

    Many things are not parallel (thank God) but we should examine those times and see the tactics of the Nazis are similar to our leftists: scapegoating, place all power in the government, rule by men and not laws, weaken and subdue traditional institutions, belief in their ideology as scientific, command economy . . . and on and on and on.

  23. Baklava Says:

    There is a guy at work I felt would do that one day – but he was a quiet type.

    2 years ago he found another job thankfully.

  24. Tom Says:

    You wrote,”Loughner was escorted out of school by police and asked not to return because of his behavior.”
    Yet you make the case that an ordinary individual, at the cost of time, trouble and expense, to say nothing about litigation risk, petition a court on behalf of the citizens? When the cops, the wretched Dupnik, the community college, and worst of all Jared’s parents, all fail to do their jobs?

  25. neo-neocon Says:

    Tom: an ordinary individual, or much more importantly and logically, the school. Institutions were involved here. And what about the parents? Why not them?

  26. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    I wish we could do a better job of identifying and treating these mentally disturbed people. Two years ago a 40 year old man with a record of mental instability, anti-social behaviour, run-ins with the law, and drug use (hmm, much does this behaviour sound familiar?) killed six people in the small town 20 miles north of where I live. During the trial it was abundantly clear that this man should not have been able to purchase a gun and had been a “problem” for family and friends for years. At the trial’s end, his poor mother told a sad tale of how she had worked for years trying, without success, to get him treatment. Her sense of sorrow, guilt, and failure were palpable during her testimony. A senseless tragedy that might have been prevented if the law was not written in such a way that prevents taking action until it is too late. And now it has happened again.

    IMO, it would be a good area to study to see if there are ways to improve our laws and the process for getting treatment for disturbed people. As I mentioned earlier, 75% of the mentally disturbed are living on the streets in miserable conditions that cost society a fairly high price in ER hospitalizations and police work, not to mention the nuisance factor. If they were in institutions where they were well cared for, wouldn’t it be more humane than what we are doing now? Yes, when you start doing involuntary treatment it can be a slippery slope and maybe it it’s asking too much for society to be able to walk that line between what we have now and an authoritarian system where people who are “undesirable” get locked away.

    No one said living in a free society was easy.

  27. Tom Says:

    Whoops! Missed your condemnation of the institutional failures, which is my concern.

  28. neo-neocon Says:

    Tom: by the way, counselors have a duty to report threats—and are legally liable if they don’t. That’s a separate issue, of course.

  29. daniel Says:

    I read through the addendum and original WaPo article and appreciate your notes, but I still go back on my experience:

    My troop had the problem wherein he could have become massively violent. We just thought he was weird.

    On the other hand, I’ve seen plenty of disruptive people who are on drugs or just disruptive and are not psycho.

    The point is that we do not know which and I would think that we are prone to give the benefit of the doubt. And I still stand by my opinion that I would rather these (very, very few) maniacs slip through the cracks than to have a system in which people have to prove their mental stability just because someone is concerned. That latter approach is the road to hell.

  30. Artfldgr Says:

    But for a refusal based on weird behavior they might be protected?

    it all depends on the person they do it to, and any angle a lawyer after the fact would make…

    if it sticks, then it becomes precidence..

    how do you think we went from reasonable person as a measure to what we have now?

  31. Barb the Evil Genius Says:

    However, Ace of Spades is reporting that law enforcement knew that Loughner had made death threats. That alone should have called for some kind of psych eval. Maybe huddling in a corner muttering or ranting on the Internet is not enough to get looked at, but making death threats should be taken seriously.

  32. Artfldgr Says:

    the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination and guarantees all persons the right to “full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the grounds of race, color, religion or national origin.”

    ah, but then there are other laws…

    the Americans with Disabilities Act was enacted and prohibited businesses from refusing service based on a person’s disability. A restaurant could not refuse to serve a blind patron because they could not read the menu. A car dealership could not refuse service because a proposed buyer was in a wheelchair.

    and since mental illness is a disability…

    and a mental illness in general does NOT preclude gun ownership.

    however, some neighbor calls and you get put in the tank for 72 hours because your neighbor is a fruitbat, and for the REST of your life, you have stuff on your record that then prohibits you from certain things!!!!!!!!!!!! (so go ahead, call and ruin a persons life if your wrong, and get no reward if your right, and may have a narcisist sociopath with a grudge coming for you after 72 hours is up!)

    California, for example, prohibits discrimination based on unconventional dress and sexual orientation. The California legislation, known as the Unruh Civil Rights Act, make it illegal for businesses to refuse service just because the owner does not like the way someone is dressed or because they are against gays.

    and the ACLU has determined that behavior, and such is speech, and so protected.

    this and other litigious solutions to cultural choices made by free people, choices not lilked, means that its easier to give the product to the person.

    wallmart CAN be in trouble for refusing the sale
    but wallmart CANT be in trouble for selling to him

    its THAT simple… and any bean counter will tell you what the outcome would be in the majorioty of cases with the exceptions being the few willing to risk things for a moral good they wont be liked or complemented for…

    most mentally ill people are no more violent than others.

    its interesting that doctors get a refusal clause, and so a doctor (Depending on where) can refuse to perform an abortion (but a nurse cant), and there is some leeway for businessneed.

    but there is no general exception for certain disabilities, and so, you may find that the first walmart is still liable for refusing to serve the disabled!!! (what they did after the fact has no bearing!!!)

    On the other hand, the slippery slope of American legal interpretation is just one court decision away from allowing clerks in bookstores to refuse service to customers buying material they find objectionable. Likewise, if moral convictions are an acceptable reason for refusing service, what is to stop a business owner from refusing service to alcoholics, or women, or any other group of people not specified in either federal or state legislation?

    these things used to be mroe cultural, and of course a business that did it would suffer. we forget that it was the STATE who forced bus companies to comply with laws they didnt want to, which facilitated rosa parks contrived protest.

    As a general rule, your right to refuse service can be based on one of the following five reasons:

    -Patrons who are unruly

    -Patrons who would place your business overcapacity in violation of local fire laws

    -Patrons who wish to be served after hours or just before closing, necessitating the expenditure of overtime for your employees.

    -Patrons who bring non-paying customers with them that require more space than one person would be reasonably be allocated. In other words, if a paying customer brings three non-paying customers and is seated at a four person booth, service cannot be refused. However if the customer brings six non-paying customers, he or she can be refused service because it requires the use of more than the one booth allocated to the paying customer.

    -Patrons who exhibit such poor hygiene that results in numerous customers leaving.

    i dont see that they can refuse hmi for a mental disability, do you?

    Businesses that have refusal of service policies in place and regularly train their employees of the rights and responsibilities of the business are in a better position to defend themselves against discrimination lawsuits that may arise when service is refused.

    so walmart has a bigger defense than others, but since they are a target for pro bono, that defense is quite slim… so its easier to just not bother, and thats it.

    Make sure your employees understand what the term “arbitrary” means and how any refusal of service that does not meet the criteria above can be considered arbitrary and therefore in violation of federal law. Likewise, understand that as a place of public accommodation, you cannot make arbitrary decisions about the type of client you wish to service.

    so is it arbitrary to refuse service to a person who has tourets and curses (very rare)?

    how about a person who sounds like they have a problem beacuse they have speech issues?

    hyper hydrosis?

    hey… they sell guns to the blind!

    A man with Tourette’s syndrome who was kicked out of a Starbucks on Powerline Road west of Boca Raton last year after he had an episode has sued the coffee shop giant for discrimination.

    n a lawsuit filed in Palm Beach County Circuit Court, Robert Friedman claims the coffee shop violated state civil rights laws when it called the sheriff’s office and asked deputies to remove him and give him a “No Trespass” warning for disturbing customers. Friedman, who has lived in Boca and Brooklyn, is seeking unspecified damages.


    The Florida Commission on Human Relations, which investigates discrimination claims, found there was evidence the coffee shop didn’t take steps to accommodate Friedman’s disability.Palm Beach Post, Feb 3, 2010

    kind of hard to make a call if cursing and banging on the walls is not enough… you can be sure that dahmer typs arent even that easy to spot in only a few mins of interaction.

    Chapter 2 Culture Counts: The Influence of Culture and Society on Mental Health

    Stigma was portrayed by the SGR as the “most formidable obstacle to future progress in the arena of mental illness and health” (DHHS, 1999). It refers to a cluster of negative attitudes and beliefs that motivate the general public to fear, reject, avoid, and discriminate against people with mental illness (Corrigan & Penn, 1999).

    Turning to the question of public attitudes toward mental illness, the largest and most detailed study of stigma in the United States was performed in 1996 as part of the General Social Survey, a respected, nationally representative survey being conducted by the National Opinion Research Center since the 1970s. In this study, a representative sample was asked in personal interviews to respond to different vignettes depicting people with mental illness. The respondents generally viewed people with mental illness as dangerous and less competent to handle their own affairs, with their harshest judgments reserved for people with schizophrenia and substance use disorders. Interestingly, neither the ethnicity of the respondent, nor the ethnicity of the person portrayed in the vignette, seemed to influence the degree of stigma (Pescosolido et al., 1999).

    we here are doing the same thing.
    we are declaring that a person with a mental illness automatically is not to have a firearm, and we focus a lot on schizophrenia… but we DONT say, sociopath and narcisists, shouldnt have them, since they kill much more than schizophrenics do (and sometimes pose as such to abrogate what happens to them)

    the number of schizoprhenics in prison is very small, while the numbers of anti social disorders are very large (with father absense in family being one of the highest commonalities).

    another large, nationally representative study found a different relationship between race, ethnicity, and attitudes towards patients with mental illness. Asian and Hispanic Americans saw them as more dangerous than did whites. Although having contact with individuals with mental illness helped to reduce stigma for whites, it did not for African Americans. American Indians, on the other hand, held attitudes similar to whites (Whaley, 1997).

    so, due to our cultural designation that whites are oppressors, they are loath and afraid to point a finger and oppress.

    sooooo… he had much less chance of being stoppe4d if the worker was white… and that is ALSO attributed to the socially engineered improvements, which immigrants and minorities participate less with.

    The bottom line is that stigma does deter major segments of the population, majority and minority alike, from seeking help. It bears repeating that a majority of all people with diagnosable mental disorders do not get treatment (DHHS, 1999).

    if he got treatment, he wold have been forbidden to participate in life. if he did NOT choose to do this, or do anything TO anyone (or himself), then no one would much care other than false worry.

    so, to avoid the rules that arbitrarily come into effect once you seek treatment, they dont.

    to avoid lawsuits for stopping such, and not being able to say tht this sufferer over other sufferers shold not be served..

    what do you get?

    what social engineers on the left want. mayhem and the illusion that we are dysfunctional.

    Misdiagnosis also can arise from clinician bias and stereotyping of ethnic and racial minorities. Clinicians often reflect the attitudes and discriminatory practices of their society (Whaley, 1998). This institutional racism was evident over a century ago with the establishment of a separate, completely segregated mental hospital in Virginia for African American patients (Prudhomme & Musto, 1973). While racism and discrimination have certainly diminished over time, there are traces today which are manifest in less overt medical practices concerning diagnosis, treatment, prescribing medications, and referrals Giles et al., 1995; Shiefer, Escarce, & Schulman, 2000. One study from the mental health field found that African American youth were four times more likely than whites to be physically restrained after acting in similarly aggressive ways, suggesting that racial stereotypes of blacks as violent motivated the professional judgment to have them restrained (Bond et al., 1988). Another study found that white therapists rated a videotape of an African American client with depression more negatively than they did a white patient with identical symptoms (Jenkins-Hall & Sacco, 1991).

    and so the clinician that might stop hassan or this dip stick, is loath to be proven a racist later.

    you can read the rest at the link, but it positively shows a industry, culture, and so forth, frozen in fear of consequences for attempting to change acts that lead to undesirable consequences.

    it all goes back to the argument in the other thread as to the 100 guilty go free than one innocent.

    are we to decalre that its better to ruin the lives of some people to prevent the one in the group from being nuts and acting out?

    given SANE people commit more crimes, wouldnt this be easy to extrapolate to imprison everyone?

    we have created the conditions for interacting parts to create dysfunctional hell, even though separately isolated the ideas can be argued as a goodness.

    kind of like argying that there is nothing dangerous or bad bout a pawn. while ignoring a pawn in context can take out a king.

  33. Artfldgr Says:

    Personality Test Administered by Employer Found to Violate Federal Disability Discrimination Laws


    so businesses are even more hindered internally than in their external dealings…

  34. apachetears Says:

    So the fact that both loughner’s parents worked for Pima County Arizona had no effect on whether he was locked up soonest or too late?

  35. neo-neocon Says:

    Barb the evil genuis: I believe that that report is unverified. I’m waiting for official word before I assume it’s correct.

  36. Curtis Says:

    Regarding the amount of the sheriff’s dept’s involvement with past episodes of Loughner’s threats and behavior: The following website states a story with the author of the website stating in a comment: “The source is presently confidential. Because of the investigation, some of the documentation will be used in the prosecution and defense of the alleged shooter.” [at January 10, 2011 6:55]


  37. Curtis Says:

    I think it is becoming clear: The liberal elite are not backing down from their smear attempt. I guess they have no choice. They have been exposed and now will rely on the “big lie” tactic. It’s not going to be the defining moment for Sarah Palin. It’s going to be the defining moment for the whole leftist conspiracy. Bye bye Obama. Bye bye Reid. Bye bye Pelosi. Bye bye.

  38. Mr. Frank Says:

    A problem that is becoming clear after Virginia Tech and this shooting is the fact that mental health problems often don’t find their way to the FBI data base used for gun purchase instant checks.

  39. Artfldgr Says:

    Maybe a better image would be blofeld pounding on a red button that has stopped working and no longer will save him?

  40. Tatterdemalian Says:

    Dunno, I’d probably lose my pistol permit if half the people I communicate with online reported me to the cops. I’ve never made death threats, but I’ve been told repeatedly that my being a neocon is a clear sign of a mental disorder and I needed to be institutionalized because I’m a clear danger to everyone around me.

    Had my gun 8 years, never fired it at anything but the practice targets at the gun range, only pulled it out twice to scare off people trying to force their way into my home and yard. I hate to think what would have happened to me if I wasn’t allowed to have a gun.

  41. blert Says:

    It is apparent that most people are unaware of MRI evidence indicating severe mental illnesses.

    Many mental illnesses, like rabies, are due to viruses that destroy linkages between our various brain functions.

    Laughner’s behaviors show this fulsomely.

    It should be ROUTINE that when LEOs get involved with weird behavior that an MRI be part of the arrest procedure.

    After all, we test for alcohol and drugs?

    While an MRI is more expensive than blood tests…

    The rarity of its need and the consequence to the victim and society show that it is high time we do so.

    Folks, most mental illness is not genetic: there are no end of viruses that can jump from animals and fowl to humans. Viruses can cross into brain-blood.

    But since such injuries are often endured, and unseen, a totally incorrect conclusion is typically reached.

    Beyond that, it is high time that sweetbreads be withdrawn from the food supply: too risky. They are an obvious path for pathogens to infect new hosts.

    That insanity is deliberately initiated by pathogens occurs in more than a few parasites/viruses.

    The above reasons explain why we have SO MANY mentally afflicted humans. By Darwinian selection, very few should be expected to reach the next generation.

    BTW, one of the reasons for falling birth rates must be that low performance/ troubled individuals are being shut out of the mating market place.

    In a society of cousin-marriage, low performance females would still be entertainment in a polygamous family. Hence, the shockingly low average IQs of even wealthy Arab populations like KSA. They’re two standard deviations below Ashkenazi Jews!

  42. blert Says:

    BTW, chicken sweetbreads are commonly used to create broth and then used as a base for chicken soup.

    IF any virus gets by….


    And then chicken livers are also used to make broth…

    Which has ruined the livelihoods of more than a few gout victims.

    One nice fellow I knew, couldn’t get to his feet due to his gout. He commented: “What can I do? I’m down to eating just chicken soup!”

    He lost his job, of course. Worse, he lost his trade. Tough on his family, no doubt.

    It was the universal assumption by him and his doctors that chicken soup couldn’t be the issue that did him in.

    Likewise, the notion that it’s ‘just a common cold.’

    (As if we know the full nature of the damage done.)

  43. sergey Says:

    I DO not believe that free society should not police itself, including isolating dangerous psychos. I do not believe that discrimanation is always bad: it is part of decision making to optimize outcomes. I do not believe that equality compatible with freedom or that stigmatization of dumb, lazy or mentally dysfunctional people is bad. It is necessary to sort out people according their value to society and keep miscreants from spoiling other people’s lives.

  44. Foxfier Says:

    where are you getting this?

  45. Curtis Says:

    The fact that such commonsense truths as Sergey put forth must be stated as if they were even something that needed defended shows the absurdity of the liberal position. Liberals may not be unintelligent; but they are absurd.

    Political Correctness, in this context, is the attempt to de-legitimize proper “discrimination” and since our discrimination comes from scripture and tradition, it is repugnant to the ubermensch. All policing, therefore, is delegated to the state.

    The best solution is to educate our children with our values, with the tradition that God exists and has provided guidance. Jeffrey Dahmer stated his problem was that he was “godless.”

    We must continue to fight and strive to win over as many “absurds” as possible, but if we do not shut off their reinforcements (it is almost a crime to speak of babies and children as reinforcements, but war is hell) we shall surely be judged as cowards.

  46. Michael Says:


    The absurds are shutting off their own reinforcements. The abortion rate in NYC is astronomical. Think of Barbara Ehrenreich, who had two of her own children killed in the womb, because she could think of no other way to avoid the unspeakable fate of buying huge jars of mayonnaise at Costco. I have looked over some blogs and sites in which men talk about their modus vivendi of sex without emotion, and the plan to pursue this until death do him part. These guys are pretty reptilian, as mare it would seem, a goodly number of their hook up partners.

    Yes, the culling of our own continues, as well. Some percentage apostasize. To paraphrase Ninotchka, “From now on there are going to be fewer and better Americans. ” OTOH, a look at the parking lot of my wife’s church, with its set-aside area for the minivans, and the four kids, dad and pregnant wife who get out of every one of them, tells one that the Right is still breeding. If we lose forty percent to the World, we still have the other sixty. Another generation and we’ll have a very different America, and a better one, I predict.

  47. Michael Says:

    as ARE, it would seem

  48. Tu Behrends Says:

    Your a good writer.. keep it up, your going to go far. Backlinks

Leave a Reply

XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <s> <strike> <strong>

About Me

Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.

Monthly Archives


Ace (bold)
AmericanDigest (writer’s digest)
AmericanThinker (thought full)
Anchoress (first things first)
AnnAlthouse (more than law)
AtlasShrugs (fearless)
AugeanStables (historian’s task)
Baldilocks (outspoken)
Barcepundit (theBrainInSpain)
Beldar (Texas lawman)
BelmontClub (deep thoughts)
Betsy’sPage (teach)
Bookworm (writingReader)
Breitbart (big)
ChicagoBoyz (boyz will be)
Contentions (CommentaryBlog)
DanielInVenezuela (against tyranny)
DeanEsmay (conservative liberal)
Donklephant (political chimera)
Dr.Helen (rights of man)
Dr.Sanity (thinking shrink)
DreamsToLightening (Asher)
EdDriscoll (market liberal)
Fausta’sBlog (opinionated)
GayPatriot (self-explanatory)
HadEnoughTherapy? (yep)
HotAir (a roomful)
InFromTheCold (once a spook)
InstaPundit (the hub)
JawaReport (the doctor is Rusty)
LegalInsurrection (law prof)
RedState (conservative)
Maggie’sFarm (centrist commune)
MelaniePhillips (formidable)
MerylYourish (centrist)
MichaelTotten (globetrotter)
MichaelYon (War Zones)
Michelle Malkin (clarion pen)
Michelle Obama's Mirror (reflections)
MudvilleGazette (milblog central)
NoPasaran! (behind French facade)
NormanGeras (principled leftist)
OneCosmos (Gagdad Bob’s blog)
PJMedia (comprehensive)
PointOfNoReturn (Jewish refugees)
Powerline (foursight)
ProteinWisdom (wiseguy)
QandO (neolibertarian)
RachelLucas (in Italy)
RogerL.Simon (PJ guy)
SecondDraft (be the judge)
SeekerBlog (inquiring minds)
SisterToldjah (she said)
Sisu (commentary plus cats)
Spengler (Goldman)
TheDoctorIsIn (indeed)
Tigerhawk (eclectic talk)
VictorDavisHanson (prof)
Vodkapundit (drinker-thinker)
Volokh (lawblog)
Zombie (alive)

Regent Badge