Support for public service unions: there are pols, and then there are polls
If you look at today’s memeorandum page, the top stories are all about the Times/CBS poll showing that most Americans strongly favor collective bargaining rights for public employees.
Then there are critiques of those polls and their sampling methods, by Ed Morrissey and Allahpundit, who point out that the sampling favored Democrats and union members too strongly, plus possible biases introduced by the way the questions were worded.
I noticed a couple more things when I actually looked at the poll itself rather than the hype around it. The poll’s results highlight what I think is at work in this and so many other issues of our day: ignorance.
And by “ignorance” I don’t mean “too many people disagree with me!” I mean actual ignorance, as in “barely following the story.”
Take a look at Question 2, for example, about whether the respondent has a favorable or unfavorable opinion of unions. 19% were undecided, 20% hadn’t heard enough to know, and 2% who cooperated with the poll enough to answer other questions refused to answer that particular one. That’s a pretty large total percentage of either fence-sitters and/or the uninformed, leaving a unrepresentatively high percentage of the highly partisan among the other responders.
Then there’s question 6, about how much the respondents have heard on the subject of the budget fights in several states proposing to cut public employees’ benefits. Only 33% answered “a lot,” 26% “some,” and the rest seemed to know virtually nothing about it. This question didn’t just involve Wisconsin, it involved the entire issue, and the answers point out just how low this topic is on most people’s radar screens. My guess is that as things heat up in more states, this will change.
Even more importantly, the questions involved collective bargaining rights for public workers in general, which in most people’s minds includes firefighters and police officers. These groups are not affected in the Wisconsin battle and are not on the list of those who will lose collective bargaining rights there if Walker prevails.
Polls are almost always designed in some partisan way, especially polls by media outlets, and this one is certainly no exception. The polls are then used to gain momentum for a particular point of view, and to intimidate opponents into losing heart and capitulating.
This particular fight is seen by the left as vital, and they are correct. So they will pull out all the stops to win it. Republicans’ task is to educate the public. Governor Christie of NJ is eminently suited to this task, and Governor Walker of WI is not bad, either. But they need to be relentless in getting the word out, and they need to not rely on the MSM to help them, because it will be seeking to hinder them instead.
[ADDENDUM: William Jacobson critiques the sampling in a Wisconsin poll.]
Hermain Cain nailed it in a speech- most people, especially conservatives, thought it was enough if they went to the polls, raised their families and paid their taxes. But the ever-increasing involvement of government in every aspect of people’s lives requires a vigilance far beyond what citizens currently expect of themselves.
Or put another way, how many public policy issues did the average person have to be aware of in 1820?
Our research organization had a small “polling section” with a staff of two or three people, and from occasionally having to find particular polls and from talking to the people in the section–professionals who did nothing but study and collect all sorts of polls, my impression was that by carefully selecting the group to be polled, then carefully wording the poll’s questions, and arranging the order in which these questions were asked, and then, finally, “interpreting” such polls, and the way you characterized the results, and particularly how you emphasized/de-emphasized the answers to particular questions in the poll, much less any mathematical manipulations or “corrections” that you might apply to such a poll, you could produce a poll that would pretty much yield any particular result that you desired.
This may seem intellectually dishonest (although I don’t think it is), but I generally discount polls and especially “studies” that support leftist talking points.
I do this because a) social “science” is heavily leftist-infested, b) manufacturing apparent support is part and parcel of the leftist playbook, and c) too many of such putatively obejctive “studies” turn out to be hopelessly flawed in methodology.
My favorite: the one claiming that boys raised in lesbian households turned out just fine. Turned out the data were self-reported by the lesbians involved. Rock-solid methodology there!
Other examples: the famous long-debunked feminist rubbish about domestic violence and the Superbowl, or the claim that 40% (IIRC) of women had been raped, or … the list goes on.
The only studies to which I give the slightest credence are those that run counter to leftist talking points, because I presume that they had to survive severe adverse selection pressure. An admission against interest, as it were.
No matter how flawed the poll is, it is shocking to me that the public is not overwhelmingly behind Walker. Can they really be so ignorant about the sorry condition of most state’s finances? Aren’t they aware that allowing public sector unions to donate to the political campaigns of those who negitiate the public employees compensation is about as corrupt as it can get?
Maybe Walker is not selling his proposal as well as we think he is.
I’m surprised they didn’t come out with a poll on Nov 3rd declaring that a comfortable majority admitted voting for the wrong party.
Scott:
The answers to your question are “yes,” and “no.”
And there should be no “maybe” in your last assertion.
Neo:
Just be thankful most of them are even more ignorant of how the bank bailouts went down. One might almost have a “storming of the bastille” moment. I mean everyone “thinks” they know how a budget works , but how many common people are experts on derivatives or mortgage laws?
I don’t suppose there’s any chance we could stay on topic, is there?
The use of the word “rights” in these poll questions is inherently slanted. Most people don’t have a clue what is particularly problematic about collective bargaining for public unions and — more important — instinctively take “rights” to be fundamental. If you ask them, “Do you favor taking away peoples’ rights?” they’ll automatically say no.
Argh!
I just posted and it went into the spam catcher.
Democrats are thieves.
I work in the belly of the beast in Sacramento, CA
It is unamerican that I have no freedom of association rights. No first ammendment for me.
I have a siphon on my paycheck to the tune of $700 per year going to every Democrat candidate in this state.
That’s theft.
mizpants,
What about my rights?
I’ve always wanted to ask if you wear the pants in the family HA! don’t answer that….
How does one educate a public that is not interested in being educated?
I would be on TV everyday if I were walker explaining to the teachers where there money went.
Explaining the first ammendment.
Explaining they would have more rights to collective bargaining than the federal employee.
The fake poll was designed to freak Scott Walker out.
I’d say it worked.
He’s blinking.
The results were established before the first phone call.
Typical for the advocacy press.
Ignorance affects this poll (and others) in ways you have not mentioned. I would bet that most people in the poll could not give a coherent definition of ‘collective bargaining’ if their life depended on it. And by ‘most’, I mean a clear numerical majority. In fact, I would bet that at least of 1/3 of those polled could not tell you the difference between a ‘public employee’ and a ‘private employee.’ I trust no polls that ask anything more than some ill-defined preference of one candidate over another. Any poll that depends on any knowledge of any issue at any time is useless.
Garbage in – Garbage out.
Money out of my paycheck against my will equals garbage.
who shall vote foreth my money coming out of my paycheck to the DNC… is a thief… a thief I say!
If it went to the RNC it’d be just as wrong.
As I heard on the radio today (Boortz or Limbaugh) these polls are designed to formulate public opinion, not reflect it.
And I don’t care about a poll.
If 1,000 people out of 2,000 people said that taking from everyone in government to fund the DNC was right – I’d say they are Democrats in that polling sample.
Thieves and liars with a mental disease.
OK. I’m fired up on this issue.
This is not a debate about raising or lowering taxes during a recession or a debate about raising or lowering the social security age.
This is THEFT.
The NYT carried this on the front page and continued the ‘report’ on the 17th page. On the 17th page you find about 20% of those polled were union members and about 25% were public service employees. Given these parameters, are the results surprising?
I’m one of those employee’s parker.
They didn’t ask me!
It’s theft.
It’s a line item on my monthly checkstub.
If I hadn’t submitted the letter (I have to do this every June) to reduce the amount for political activity – it’d be more than the $62.13 that I see every month.
That is $745.56 to the DNC against my will.
Jerry Brown got there because of two things:
1) SEIU
2) The illegal immigrant who committed fraud.
We hold the relevant polls on governors’ performance every four years.
I voted.
I have more taken out every month to the SEIU (DNC) against my will.
baklava,
For the union bosses that automatic deduction from the paycheck is the real issue. In the specific case of the WI teacher’s union, the union bosses could give a rat’s alimentary canal orifice about educating kids, its all about the dues coming to the union bosses. The dues provide the bosses with nice, cushy salaries. For the democrat politico a portion of those dues give them a nice, cushy campaign war chest. Always follow the money.
Occam,
As the Grand Exalted Obama said, “Elections have consequences. I won.” Of course when you don’t win the play book tells you its time to resort to whines, moans, tears, lies, threats, hatred, and demagoguery.
I know.
We got 3 furlough days a month here in CA.
Wisconsin’s union already gave the money concessions.
It’s ALL about the automatic siphon to the DNC people!!!
ALL
And I say that theft is wrong.
I look to the first ammendment. If you want to associate with a union do so. If you don’t want to you should have the freedom not to.
baklava,
To the die hard union member you are a pariah. Pariahs have no rights except to be either banished or stoned (metaphorically of course, until sharia comes).
Of course when you don’t win the play book tells you its time to resort to whines, moans, tears, lies, threats, hatred, and demagoguery.
You left out “or skulk off like a thief in the night.”
I always forget the skulking part.
Blert @ 5:12 pm, it doesn’t look to me as though Walker has blinked: Gov. Scott Walker unveils Wisconsin budget.
Yes, calling them “rights” when they are really a privilege is loaded (and incorrect) language which skews people’s viewpoint.
As far as understanding the issues… the people who get their news only or primarily through mainstream media (ABC / CBS / NBC / NYT / AP) get their news from the propaganda wing of the Democratic Party. So they tend to see issues just as they are taught to see them, to keep them voting for Democrats.
Ignorance is HUGE now, and even worse its backed by self confidence given not earned, so having no foundation, they have to defend a made up or parroted position, as they learned to fake more than they learned.
even worse on top of bad the sesame street generation has learned to fill in blanks with what they like, rather than even remember there were blanks there. comprehension stinks like a dead whale on a tropical beach…
Militancy is high though, so is the idea that pulling a train equals liberation (or female natural behaviors are male programmed into them), and lots of other things that most sane people dont believe even if i show them.
“Each famous author of antiquity whom I recover places a new offense and another cause of dishonor to the charge of earlier generations, who, not satisfied with their own disgraceful barrenness, permitted the fruit of other minds, and the writings that their ancestors had produced by toil and application, to perish through insufferable neglect.
Although they had nothing of their own to hand down to those who were to come after, they robbed posterity of its ancestral heritage.”
Do we realize how ignorance has been redefined?
it now means that you have the right or wrong opinion, not that you are missing knowledge.
Ignorance is not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway.
the first time we met socialism, we were ignorant and raised up to the challenge. this time we know the history, and we are doing it anyway.
maybe we can just give them links
depts.washington.edu/labhist/cpproject/grijalva.shtml
any complaints of tin hats should be directed to the university of Washington, as its their website…
“Fascism will only come into existence in the United States when such a movement becomes really necessary for the prevention of Communism.” Hearst…
the history on that one site would make the eyes spin of many people who are ignorant of unions…
the history starts in early 1900 an goes up to 2002…
Artfldgr says,
“it now means that you have the right or wrong opinion, not that you are missing knowledge.”
Yes, opinions are now substituted for knowledge, information, facts, and even reality unfolding right before one’s eyes.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.” — Pat Moynihan
A Union Education
http:///SB10001424052748704615504576172701898769040.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
they tell the history, but of course scrubbed of any ideological influence as it that was not in there too…
And fancy that, they have been totalitarian approved since 1919….
more at the link….
i would also like to thank the WSJ for validating my points in the prior thread… points such as…
it also knows that a business must make profits or it will move or shut down.
so they do move companies overseas (or even down south) when the cost curve becomes equal or better. at equal costs you lose a huge headache.
the line reveals that its a parasite, which can live in the company by paying off the workers.
kind of like a beetle who can live in a bee hive by being able to give the workers a bit of special honey, while it eats away at the hives health and ability to adapt and expand.
if one wanted to be more accurate, the company and the workers are voluntary simbionts.
They exist in mutualism:
Mutualism is any relationship between individuals of different species where both individuals derive a benefit
into this arrangement comes a parasite, who at best claims to really be Commensalism
Commensalism describes a relationship between two living organisms where one benefits and the other is not significantly harmed or helped. It is derived from the English word commensal used of human social interaction. The word derives from the medieval Latin word, formed from com- and mensa, meaning “sharing a table”.
but instead its really a parasite which feeds on the host, and as i said above, gets the symbiont of the host to protect it. despite that short term benefit, it actually hurts the symbiont of the host over the long term.
when such a parasite is local to the company as a local group, its biotrophic… “they rely on their host’s surviving” and also according to wiki:
Biotrophic parasitism is an extremely successful mode of life. Depending on the definition used, as many as half of all animals have at least one parasitic phase in their life cycles, and it is also frequent in plants and fungi. Moreover, almost all free-living animals are host to one or more parasite taxa. An example of a biotrophic relationship would be a tick feeding on the blood of its host.
however, as they cross link with others who are attached to other hosts, they gain a certain freedom from biotrophism. at least for the main beings in the group…
they can become necrotrophic, in that the leaders can negotiate that the host dies (goes out of business), or has to leave for a different environment (which will remove the infestation during the transfer).
since these workers can move to other unions and other groups, this action is not as bad as when they are part of the actual work force barganing, and having not ties and have to be biotrophic.
being parasites they are going to want to mainline the source, and in government, they hit the motherload. they become the parasite of the super parasite, which technically should be biotrophic, but due to the feeding is going to suck dry its hosts in the effort to pass the buck.
dont help that many parts of the biotrophic organism itself have changed to parasites as well.
the parasites kind of mix and merge…
the companies and stuff they favor grow so large and then are parasites of amensalism…
Amensalism is the type of symbiotic relationship that exists where one species is inhibited or completely obliterated and one is unaffected. This type of symbiosis is relatively uncommon in rudimentary reference texts, but is omnipresent in the natural world. An example is a sapling growing under the shadow of a mature tree. The mature tree can begin to rob the sapling of necessary sunlight and, if the mature tree is very large, it can take up rainwater and deplete soil nutrients. Throughout the process the mature tree is unaffected. Indeed, if the sapling dies, the mature tree gains nutrients from the decaying sapling. Note that these nutrients become available because of the sapling’s decomposition, rather than from the living sapling, which would be a case of parasitism.
all socialism is, is an ideology of parasitism defeats symbiosis…
funny thing happens when parasites win completely…
they lose
they go extinct without a new host
slowly becoming more anemic and sickly as long time goes by
fyi, this essay provides a conservative rationale for collective bargaining in general (not limited to public/private domain). It’s an interesting read.
Collective Representation: A Conservative Defense
Brad Says:
March 1st, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Well, I really don’t want a French Revolution here, since it ended up in a bloodbath, like practically every revolution since the American Revolution.
The intricacies of derivatives and mortgage laws are only understandable by the small percentage of people with the highest IQs. I’m somewhat above average (but nothing to brag about) and I can barely comprehend them myself. There is no chance that people of average or below average intelligence can. Half of the population is on the left side of the bell curve.
Therefore the idea that a majority of people will “wake up” is a pipe dream. It will never happen. It can never happen. It’s physically impossible.
However, there is a glimmer of a possibility to right the ship. The majority of bankers are not criminals. The banking industry is not inherently evil. Banking is necessary in a capitalist economy.
Some bankers are crooks. In a society which is under the rule of law, they will be caught and prosecuted. But if corrupt politicians pervert and subvert the rule of law, then the banking criminals will be allowed to get away with all manner of financial crimes against the citizenry.
Campaign contributions from corrupt bankers to corrupt politicians are not enough to win elections. The corrupt politicians also need votes, and that is where the public unions come in. The unions funnel money to the corrupt politicians (the same ones who enable the corrupt bankers), who give sweetheart deals to the unions in their “negotiations”. That in turn entices the union members and their families to vote for the corrupt politicians.
Break the unions, and you may break the cycle of corruption. There is a good chance that the corrupt politicians will be replaced by uncorrupted ones, who will then do their jobs and go after the corrupt bankers.
You have to do these things one step at a time. Our response to Pearl Harbor was not to sent the Pacific Fleet steaming into Tokyo Bay to occupy the city. It took a long time to get to the point where we could do that.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
H. L. Mencken
rickl,
The bell curve is real, be on the right or be left behind.
As far as corrupt politicians are concerned; if a jury determines a politician is guilty of corruption the jury has also ruled they have betrayed the public trust. IMO, if they have betrayed the public trust they have not only broken their oath of office, they have committed treason (undermining the republic).
Punishment for breaking oath/treason: either breaking rocks at Leavenworth 12/24/7/52 or death by hanging. Hang a few and the rest ‘get religion’ for at least a generation.
“‘The trouble with people is not that they don’t know, but that they know so much that ain’t so.’ This line, variously attributed to Mark Twain, Will Rogers and Yogi Berra, actually originated with the 19th century humorist Josh Billings, which in itself proves his point. I spent a good deal of time last week writing about the ignorance and apathy of the general public when it comes to unions and collective bargaining. But specialists often complain that people lack interest in their specialty, so it wouldn’t surprise or bother me to learn that many casual readers simply, uh, ignored it. It was with impeccable timing, then, that the Kaiser Family Foundation released the results of its latest tracking poll. It showed that 22 percent of those surveyed believe the federal health care reform bill has been repealed. Another 26 percent didn’t know or refused to answer. Only a slim majority of 52 percent knew it is still the law of the land. Teachers may find it ironic that now all of us (by which I mean politicians, journalists, policy wonks, unionists and bloggers) are faced with an environment similar to what they face in the classroom — namely, people who don’t pay attention. We’re obligated to present the material in a clear, concise and logical manner, and we should constantly reevaluate whether we’re doing that. But at some point, it’s the responsibility of the student/audience/public to take it in. Will Rogers (really!) said, ‘Everyone is ignorant, only in different subjects.’ And he was right. But it seems we’ve reached a stage where a lot of people are ignorant of their ignorance of those subjects, but have strong opinions anyway” — Mike Antonucci, an education policy blogger, writing yesterday at eiaonline.com.
Whis is anybody addressing BRAD?
He called Reagan a schmuck in the other thread.
Don’t know where 12/24/7/52 came from, brain flatulence probably. Should be 24/7/52.
The bell curve is real, be on the right or be left behind.
Hence the origin of “left wing.”
“Democracy” will not, has not, cannot work.
If we don’t restrict the franchise to sentient beings, we are doomed. Simple as that.
Occam’s Beard Says:
March 1st, 2011 at 11:23 pm
Good one.
“There is no avant garde, there are only those who have been left behind to sift the ashes of history and preen over their imagined relevance.”
— Parker (circa 1969)
” Every wave is new until it breaks.”
— Neil Young (circa 1979)
“There is no escaping the fact that the fate of the Constitution is in our hands as voters, representatives, and justices. If we allow ourselves to abuse the tradition of higher law making, the very idea that the Constitution can be viewed as the culminating expression of a mobilized citizenry disintegrates. After all, the American Republic is no more eternal than the Roman — and it will come to an end when the American citizens betray their Constitution’s fundamental ideals and aspirations so thoroughly that existing institutions merely parody the public meanings they formerly conveyed.”
— Bruce Ackerman (circa 1990)
baklava
Working my way thru college I had to pay dues to both the USW and UAW. I was not a member as I was considered a probationary employee. And of course summer vacation never lasted long enough to become a member.
No one stood for me and I had none of the “protections” but the company collected dues from me and handed it over to the union.
Them’s the rules.
But you know, these many decades later I am still bitter about that.
It is amusing how the word “rights” makes fools almost of everybody. Every “right” people are ready to support, never asking whose obligation it will be to pay for this right and if these money are available. I wonder what results the polls would produce, if the question be formulated “Do you support right to work of non-union members?
Basically it’s coming down to gangland USA. You either belong to a collective/gang like a union to extort from those less powerful or you’ll be trampled.
The Tea Party will have to morph into a taxpayers union at some point and no doubt will have to be rather ruthless too. These people will not yield until they get a good dose of their own medicine.
SteveH,
How can I be the thief?
I want to pull money from the union bosses paychecks and members of the Democrat party to start a union.
I’ll call it.
“Democrats for America” (even though I’m not a Democrat).
I’ll do nothing but siphon money to the opposition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PFM36pPRPoo
Thieves in action in Wisconsin.
Think of an automatic payroll deduction from every public union employee to support the tea party union. Can you imagine the liberal heads exploding?
This is exactly the scenario happening right now aimed at non union taxpayers. They simply count on our reverence for the individual to keep us from forming a collective with any passion and resolve. They may be right, because i know an awful lot of decent people that just want to be left alone.
the source of our left and right concepts is the french revolution..
rive droight rive gauche..
river right, river left…
which is why being trendy is gauche and also gauche 🙂
being of the left bank became synonymous..
it was the parrisiene equivalent of
“being on the wrong side of the tracks”
the arguments arodnu it make no real sense here other than we accept it and ignore that.
after all, the US never had an aristocracy..
and protests are not needed since there is a way to change it by other means (but by protesting deny it).
etc…etc… etc…
More like the Mobs and Slobs in action in Wisconsin.
Mark Steyn is more strightforvard: “That’s what “collective bargaining” is about: It enables unions rather than citizens to set the price of government. It is, thus, a direct assault on republican democracy, and it needs to be destroyed.”