May 19th, 2011

Obama’s speech: throwing Israel under the bus

Obama’s Middle East speech (full text here) pays lip service to Assad of Syria needing to reform or quit, support for more rights for the Iranian people, and giving Egypt a financial break.

I can’t quite imagine either Assad or Ahmadinejad shaking in their shoes because Obama says so. Even the wave of pressure for democracy in the region doesn’t seem to have threatened them overmuch so far.

As for Israel and Palestine:

President Obama said the borders of Israel and a Palestinian state should be based on pre-1967 borders, referring to those that existed before the Six-Day War – which includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem.

Correspondents say the apparent change of emphasis is set to anger Israel, which has previously said that endorsing the 1967 borders would prejudge peace negotiations.

This represents a break from previous administrations, and is sure to cause shockwaves throughout the region.

Even before this speech, Jewish donors to the Obama campaign were feeling a bit uneasy. It’s hard to imagine that this will reassure them—although for many, their liberalism will trump any sense of obligation to Israel’s continued existence.

I’m guessing that Obama feels quite secure in his support from wealthy Jews, no matter what he does or says regarding Israel and Palestine. But is he correct in that perception? Even a year ago, he had lost a surprising amount of support among Jewish voters.

Of course, Jewish voters are a tiny percentage of the voting public, and losing a few—even quite a few—probably doesn’t matter much. They are heavily concentrated in strongly liberal enclaves such as New York and Los Angeles, where the defection of some will hardly make a difference, although it could matter in Florida. But wealthy Jewish donors may be a different matter, and losing enough of them could smart.

[ADDENDUM: Romney channels neo-neocon.]

114 Responses to “Obama’s speech: throwing Israel under the bus”

  1. vanderleun Says:

    “Obama feels quite secure in his support from wealthy Jews, no matter what he does or says regarding Israel and Palestine. But is he correct in that perception? ”

    According to recent conversations with people who think deeply about the issue, the answer is yes. When it comes to Israel or Obama, a great number of infected minds among the Jewish vote would choose Obama.

  2. Artfldgr Says:

    i said it long ago…
    Shoa II in slow motion is happening
    but less overtly and more seriptitiously
    now that they know the common man dont agree…
    its the same as other progressive things…

    “Obama feels quite secure in his support from wealthy Jews, no matter what he does or says regarding Israel and Palestine. But is he correct in that perception? ”

    oh yeah is he correct.
    they will not listen to anything
    they are kind of antipolitical but with open pocketbooks…

    that is, they give like its pop warner, so their team wins. but they dont care what the team does, whats going to happen to them, the fact shoa II has been working, and so on..

    like my friend a few years back, so sure they are not to worry, that they will force their bet on those who will pay the price…

    ultimately i may end up learning to like schadenfreude whether or not i want to

  3. Dustoffmom Says:

    Having been to Auschwitz, having seen for myself it’s remaining horrors, experiencing to this day many a nightmare over it I can only cry for what was done and what is being done now. I thought ‘the world will never forget’ actually meant something. All I can say now is……..shame!

  4. Bob From Virginia Says:

    Both funny and sad. Obama probably really thinks his cliches are original insights. My guess the Israelis are mildly amused as we would be if the leader of Botswana purposed returning California to Mexico as a goodwill gesture. As for Obami American Jews; fat, happy and superficial.

    After this speech how anyone can consider Obama anything other than a laughingstock is beyond me. (Yes I know we’ll all been saying that since 2007, but it’s still true.)

  5. ziontruth Says:

    Dustoffmom,

    One thing about those (usually anti-Zionists) who ask, “Is it ‘Never Again’ for everybody or just for the Jews?” is I think there’s nothing objectionable in the idea that every nation needs to say “Never Again.” What I find objectionable is the idea that this “Never Again” must be secured by international treaties and mutual defense pacts. What was the 20th century but a demonstration of the vacuity of that idea? Rwanda in 1994 could tell you about the worth of the “world community.”

    It’s “Never Again” for everyone, but not in the sense that the world should become a global village where everyone pokes his nose into each other’s affairs. It’s “Never Again” for everyone by themselves for themselves, come hell or high water, doing whatever it takes, not giving a rat’s behind about any international “laws” that obstruct a nation from defending itself.

  6. raincityjazz Says:

    Once again Obama proves that there is no cause too righteous, decent and noble for him to betray. What a surprise. I wouldn’t bet my own money that American liberal Jews will wake up anytime soon; even more than Republicans, they seem to thirst for death.

  7. M J R Says:

    I often listen to Dennis Prager’s talk-radio program.

    Mr. Prager is an orthodox Jew and (I do believe) Yeshiva-educated. But he’s also a serious political conservative.

    It was not always thus; he went though his own political epiphany possibly analogous to our dear neo’s.

    But here’s where I’m going with this:

    Prager recently wrote an opinion column (he does that, too), in which he wrote

    [I'm about to paraphrase now . . . ]

    that one time he was in a position in which he partook of something that was non-kosher. I do hope I’m doing justice to the experience Prager described; I forget the circumstances that led to this out-of-character departure — youthful dalliance? I just don’t know now.

    Anyway, . . .

    He said that it was emotionally easier for him to do that, despite his being a very serious Jew, both religious and cultural, than it was for him to pull the Republican lever for the very first time.

    His point was that the leftism was ^that^ ingrained in the leftish/Jewish culture, than observing the kosher laws, even for a serious, observant Jew.

    So yes, I can easily believe that many, many Jews will sip The One’s Kool-Aid (SM), despite the Israel implications.

  8. annonymous Says:

    I think “under the bus” is too common a term and too light a term for what just occured. Obama has just proclaimed before the world that he does not side with Israel, that he sides with “Palestinians” and Jew-haters. He has just emboldened the enemy and placed the nation of Israel and Jews around the world at great risk. Apparently, he no longer feels he needs to hide his true feelings, for they were out in the open today in all their disgusting glory for the world to see.

  9. gs Says:

    1. The 1967 borders? Fuhgeddaboudit. There are permanent consequences to losing a war of extermination.

    2. Israel is the only first-world nation which is demonstrating that civilization must fight against barbarians in order to survive. (I intentionally exclude the Bush/Obama’s USA haphazard squandering of resources.) Therefore Israel is anathema in the self-hating multicultural fantasy.

  10. csimon Says:

    Our family knows well a family of those “wealthy Jews” (enormously wealthy!) who support Obama. We try to stay away from politics on social occasions. (Needless to say, we do NOT attend their fancy fundraisers for Obama).

    Last summer at dinner, one member of said family sat next to me, and insisted on going “there.” (i.e. conversation re: Obama). In effort to be politie, I diplomatically suggested we stay away from politics. This person usually agrees but for some reason, this evening she did not. And what was her point? Obama is the best thing for Israel!! No president has ever come close! When I begged to differ, I was met with a chorus of fiercely objecting members of her family, summed up with a very patronizing, “You just don’t understand!”

    I’m not proud of it, but I suddenly lost my appetite just as dinner was served, and took a long, long walk…..

    (Oh, I should say that aside from their politics, these people are very nice! lol)

    My first thought today during Obama’s speech was, “how much do they think we don’t understand today?” And how much do THEY understand — at all?

    I relate this because I find it amazing that bright, uber-successful people refuse to see what is right in front of their eyes. Also, this is quite apropos to the discussion some of us had re: David Mamet the other night regarding Jews who have grown up in very homogeneous communities and for some reason automatically fervidly pledge their allegiance to the Democratic party and any politician therein no matter what issue. These family friends are Jewish and from the community in which I grew up. Their consistent knee-jerk reactions in defense of Obama and everything he posits is as fierce as if
    it were one of their own family members they felt compelled to defend — even when there is no defense whatsoever.

    I speak as a Jew — one who is immensely proud of my religion and the culture — but one who is not “a co-dependent of the herd” as Mamet aptly described the phenomenon and I could never imagine being so. I’m quite sure Mamet was alluding to the whole Hollywood crowd he’s hung out with for years and their group-think. It happens that a large part of the Hollywood crowd and much of their leadership are Jewish. How much this contributes to the way they view politics is unknown to me but is of great curiosity to me.

    Also mentioned today on the news was that some White House advisors were split on the President’s speech. In particular, Dennis Ross, one of the President’s chief advisors on the Middle East with a long and well-respected history there, was dead set against specifying the old borders pre-1967, but that fell on deaf ears. Big surprise. Not.

    Of note, also, is the fact that this follows the recent (in last couple of weeks) accord between Fatah and Hamas in which the “Palestinian leadership [is] newly allied with the Islamic militant group Hamas.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

    For anyone who does not know, the very charter of Hamas and its key objective is the destruction of Israel.

  11. csimon Says:

    It should not be any surprise that Obama now considers himself chief authority on the Middle East peace process — specifically between Israel and Palestine — and is THE ONLY man who will achieve this peace agreement. After all, Moses only parted the Red Sea. Obama, it is said, walks on water!

  12. Richard Aubrey Says:

    As I’ve quoted someone before, the dems can do anything to the Jews with no consequences and the republicans can do anything for the Jews with no rewards.
    As I’ve said before, no matter what, when it comes to voting, Jews will remember that conservative Christians likely vote repub, which is all that counts.
    No enemy on the face of the globe is more dangerous to Jews–say the advocacy groups–than conservative Christians.
    You can’t say that about Muslims. They’ll kill you. Christians will pray for you. Safer.

  13. SteveH Says:

    This is how politically correct liberalism and islam finally end. The same way naziism ended. Unthinkable violence at their hands demanding they be dismantled or destroyed. History is repeating itself.

  14. Trimegistus Says:

    The Democrats have done their work very well. Every Jew in America believes the Republican Party is controlled by Christian fanatics who want to kill them, and only the Democrats stand between them and a new pogrom.

    They really believe this. I’ve heard well-educated, intelligent people say this with a straight face — that Republicans want to establish a Christian theocracy in America.

  15. M J R Says:

    Regarding my 3:38 PM comment of today, I realized I may as well let Mr. Prager enunciate his point in his own words (like, duh on me).

    So here’s a link . . .

    http://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2010/09/28/if_you_are_not_a_leftist,_why_are_you_voting_democrat

    . . . excellent article.

  16. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    I have to echo what has been said here about Jews incredibly blind support for Obama; smart, cultured people who exhibit unthinking, almost robotic “Stepford Wives” behavior–that will stand no contradiction–behavior that I have witnessed at first hand. To them Obama is some sort of a God and can do no wrong!

    I am pretty sure that, even if Obama were to be broadcast live, torturing, killing, and then eating a baby on the White House lawn, they would still find some way to make excuses for him, and still vote for him.

    The equivalent that comes to mind is King Theoden of Rohan in “Lord of the Rings,” who has been be-spelled by the charming words of his “adviser,” Grima Worm tongue, so that as destruction gathers all around him he sits on his throne, in a trance, seeing nothing and taking no action, while his Kingdom is being enfeebled and almost destroyed, crumbling around him.

  17. Please Says:

    You people are idiots.

  18. Baklava Says:

    I was thinking we’d see trolls on this thread. .

    Something about the “Jews” that gets people worked up.

    It’s common sense.

    The borders of California are defined now.

    So are Israel’s.

  19. ziontruth Says:

    Wolla Dalbo,

    I always thought Gandalf looked like a rabbi. An Orthodox rabbi, at that. But so does Saruman, who must be from the Neturei Karta (those “rabbis” who march together with the Muslims in all their anti-Zionist demonstrations). On second thought, Saruman is a splitting image of the assassinated former Hamas leader Sheikh Yassin.

    My favorite LOTR passage:

    “Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.”
    “I wish it need not have happened in my time,” said Frodo.
    “So do I,” said Gandalf, “and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

  20. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    P.S. And, yes, I have heard that line, too, from them, about how the main threat to Jews is from the Christian Right, which is poised to reenact Kristallnacht and to round up the Jews here in the U.S. at any moment. Man, the Left has put on a Hell of a disinformation operation to have achieved so total and complete a victory.

    Ironic, isn’t it, since from what I can see Conservative Christians are some of the most passionate supporters of Israel/Jews around, and apparently make up the majority of Jews and Israels’ dwindling number of supporters here in this country.

  21. njartist49 Says:

    @ DustOffMom:

    I thought ‘the world will never forget’ actually meant something.

    This was fortellable the moment they opened the Holocaust museum.

  22. CCG Says:

    There is some hope. My father and unlce are non-practicing Jews who are conservative. My father’s a doctor and has many doc friends who are also conservative. That being said there are Jews who for some strange reason fear the Christians clinging to their bibles but fear not the muslims clinging to their AK-47s. **BTW – I live in California. Please don’t give the Won any ideas about giving our land to Mexico – they’ve already taken it by default.

  23. Promethea Says:

    Maybe if us Jewish neo-cons just call Obama an idiot and do an eye roll, some Jews may decide to join our herd. After all, this so-called “new” policy has been around since 1967, and nothing has been accomplished since then.

    In 1993 the Oslo accords settled 98% of the borders, and then began the 2nd intifada. What will be different this time?

    Obama, you’re an idiot. Any Jew who supports him is a dope. Not very smart. A fool.

  24. jim murray Says:

    I wish for the day when an American president will send a private letter to the heads of the PA, Israel, and the UN saying … The US has exhausted its patience with the leadership. Work it out yourselves.

  25. Promethea Says:

    Re the Jews fearing Christians, that’s because of various past experiences including certain Christian preachers. Long history there.

    Jews don’t fear Muslims because they don’t know many. The ones they know seem OK. My son thought I was being prejudiced when I tried to explain what’s wrong with Islam. He knows and works with Palestinians. They seem fine to him. They probably are. I couldn’t say to him “well maybe they’ll cut your throat when they want to “get their Jew.”" That does seem prejudiced. Maybe these people are very nice.

    I couldn’t tell my son that he’s an idiot. That’s hardly an argument, even though I used it in my post above.

  26. gs Says:

    How united is Israeli society against the threat(s)? Is the pacifist element significant enough to provide pro-appeasement American Jews a pretext to stay deluded by the Left?

  27. Tom Says:

    I’m breaking my self-imposed moratorium on blogging. Self-imposed, because my frustrations make me angry and sad. Reading this thread just makes me sadder. We seem to be in a tsunami of ignorance, denial, and evil of overwhelming proportions. The world could be such a better place, the path is so obvious. Sad.

  28. ziontruth Says:

    gs,

    “How united is Israeli society against the threat(s)?”

    Following a great shift to the Right in the 2000s, largely united. However, this isn’t the right question, because the 95% Israeli Jews who oppose concessions aren’t allowed by the 5% insane ones (including the media chatterati) to make the policies. Same old story everywhere: The will of the people is ignored in favor of the ideas of an elite who “know better.”

  29. gs Says:

    Interesting, ziontruth, thanks.

    I infer that when elite liberal American Jews talk to the Israeli elite, the Americans will not necessarily be subjected to home truths that they prefer to ignore.

  30. rickl Says:

    Please Says:
    May 19th, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    You people are idiots.

    Well, that’s succinct, at least.

  31. Don Rodrigo Says:

    America is full of intelligent, educated people who are too clever by half. It is because of them that Obama is now president. While the attitude of Jews may seem particularly baffling, this underlying “perverse cleverness” factor is shared by many others. They seem to think that their vote can be “nuanced” somehow, even though it is never counted that way.

  32. Don Rodrigo Says:

    The poster “Please” fits into the category of people I defined in my previous post; a useful idiot if ever there was one.

  33. rickl Says:

    Bob From Virginia Says:
    May 19th, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    After this speech how anyone can consider Obama anything other than a laughingstock is beyond me.

    I respectfully but vehemently disagree. I’m not laughing. I think the man is utterly malevolent.

  34. Trimegistus Says:

    So, Promethea: how many Jews have been murdered by Christian preachers in the U.S. in the past, oh, four hundred years? I think the number is close to zero.

  35. SteveH Says:

    I get the feeling many jews and liberals in general think Israel being dismantled or destroyed will solve all the problems. No. That is when the real problems begin. We ain’t seen trouble yet.

  36. rickl Says:

    annonymous Says:
    May 19th, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    I think “under the bus” is too common a term and too light a term for what just occured. Obama has just proclaimed before the world that he does not side with Israel, that he sides with “Palestinians” and Jew-haters. He has just emboldened the enemy and placed the nation of Israel and Jews around the world at great risk.

    I agree. “Thrown to the wolves” is a much more accurate phrase.

    Apparently, he no longer feels he needs to hide his true feelings, for they were out in the open today in all their disgusting glory for the world to see.

    When is he going to drop the mask and just openly proclaim that he’s a Muslim? He all but did that today.

  37. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    The level of self-deception that is used by Jews to maintain the fiction that Christians are a major threat—or, for that matter, any significant threat at all–to Jews here in this country, but that Muslims are not, is simply monumental, and is helped along immeasurably by our MSM and the authority’s policy–it appears–to downplay any such violence/attacks by Muslims here in the U.S. in any way possible, and were it not for bad reporting combined with that arsenal of techniques used to disguise the number of acts of violence –ie. violence like “honor” killings, and attempted Muslim terrorist attacks and actual terror attacks by Muslims here in this country, I would hope that people would be—and should be–much more alarmed today than they are, because the picture they would have of reality would be infinitely more threatening.

    The State Department has compiled a chronology of major terrorist attacks against U.S. citizens and U.S. interests but this only highlights a few dozen such attacks by all sorts of groups over the course of several decades. and it has not been updated in quite some time (see, for instance, http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2003/33773.htm). Many years ago, I was tasked to try to compile a much more extensive running total of terrorist attacks against U.S. citizens and government personnel, and in the course of attempting to do so, I encountered the bad reporting and the arsenal of what I believed to be deliberately obscuring techniques that I have referred to above, that made compiling such a list virtually impossible.

    First, in many cases, there is just plain bad reporting, in which the Who, What, Why, Where, When, and How of basic Journalism 101 is just not included in a story, much less in the first paragraph where it should be. So, how can you tell if the news story you are reading is one about a terrorist attack if all the relevant information is not there? And, remember, I was searching through and scanning thousands of articles, with thousands more to come, so I couldn’t just call up the newspaper and chew up a half hour or hour of time to inquire about one particular story. So, if the basic information was not in the story, it was often the case that I could not determine whether this was a terror attack or not.

    I was looking for information about things like: Where exactly did the attack occur? Where there other, similar attacks in the past? What kinds of weapons were used? What was the specific nature of the attack? What were the names of the people involved? Did this attack take place on any significant/symbolic day i.e. 9/11 was staged on the day in September that Muslims were defeated at the Battle of Vienna, on September 11, 1683. Was any group involved? What was the apparent motive for the attack? Was anything shouted or said, or any claim of credit made, or leaflets left at the scene? From what was said, and done, and how, and why, was religion or ideology somehow involved?

    Then, beyond just plain bad journalism, I started to see other things—a pattern that I perceive has become much more pronounced in the last few years–of stories initially omitting the names of the perps involved (usually involving the name Mohammad) and then releasing them at a later date, when interest in the story had likely waned. Often, the first sentence or two pronounced this to be a story about “domestic violence” or a simple fight, and one need look no further for answers. Or, the theme was that the attacker was a “loner” or a “nut,” “had recently been discouraged” or “had received some bad breaks in life,” or “been discriminated against,” and quite often the attack was—in a blatant and transparent effort not to “connect the dots” pronounced as being “inexplicable,” or there was an initial flat out denial that this could possibly be a Muslim terror attack.

    So, for instance, as in the case of Maj. Hasan’s Jihadi massacre at Ft. Hood, a press statement was initially issued (while the attack was, for all the authorities knew, still underway, no less and before anything could really be sorted out) denying that this has anything to do with Muslims or was a terrorist attack—a denial that is often just left to sink out of sight, or is later “walked back,” when fewer people may be paying attention. Or, perhaps, as also occurred, the fact that Maj. Hasan was screaming the Muslim war cry of “Allahu Akbar” as he mowed down his fellow soldiers is not disclosed initially but, again only dribbles out later, minimizing its impact, and making the connection of this being a Muslim terrorist attack less likely for many people. Or, perhaps, the “after action analysis” by our government does not use the words “Islam,” or “Muslim,” “Jihad,” or “terrorist” at all in its hundreds of pages of analysis, as was done with the various official analyses of the Jihadi terrorist attack by Maj. Hasan, referred to by our government as “an incident of work place violence.”

    There are many other such methods, but a prime example of a few at work was the recent example of the Muslim from Yemen, Rageh Ahmed Mohammed al-Murisi, who last week twice rushed the cockpit door on American Airlines flight 1561 while screaming over and over again “Allahu Akbar” *see http://news.yahoo.com/s/uc/20110513/cm_uc_crmmax/op_1917946) . Details were slow to emerge, and the “Allahu Akbar” part last of all, and there were “analyses” saying that this poor Yemini, never having flown a lot (no doubt he had been impoverished and denied his rightful place in society because of discrimination) probably just mistook the door to the cockpit for the door to the lavatory, etc., etc.

    You get the picture.

  38. Trimegistus Says:

    Wolla: As part of my smart-ass crack to Promethea, above, I tried to find data on the number of Muslim hate crimes against Jews in America. Not available.

  39. daxypoo Says:

    i read the transcript of the speech and in typical fashion the tone resembled a principal in an elementary school calling an assembly after some rough housing had taken place during recess

    his inability to take a stand, consistent with leading from behind, in conjunction with his default pro-arab/muslim position has effectively announced to the entire world (as if they didnt already know) that the u.s. would rather have no involvement in the region

    “The full and phased withdrawal of Israeli military forces should be coordinated with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility in a sovereign, non-militarised state. ”

    obama, principal in chief, blaming the whole “misunderstanding” on the aggressive jews and their military just needs to back off and let all the warm and fuzzies of the unrest run their course

    personally, i think obama had hoped no one would notice the blurb on israel; it was at the end of the speech when most listeners resemble homer simpson dozing and drooling

  40. Trimegistus Says:

    I still can’t decide. Is Obama so God-damned stupid and badly educated that he doesn’t realize the effect his words will have? That millions of Muslims are now assuming Israel is friendless and are preparing to drive them into the sea?

    Or is Obama so wrapped up in his Animal Farm belief that darker skin = greater moral virtue that he actually desires the death of all the Israelis at the hands of their Arab neighbors?

    It’s always the big question about liberals: stupid, or evil? (I suppose there’s no reason they can’t be both.)

  41. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Trismegistus–Try Muslim as the answer.

  42. Mr. Frank Says:

    Churchill is reputed to have said that in a contest between the fire and the fire brigade, neutrality is not a virtue. Obama doesn’t get it.

    I hope Israel has lots of nukes so she can go down swinging.

  43. JuliB Says:

    Is this man (Obama) trying to incite a war? The latest rapture predictions call for Saturday. Perhaps he believes it and wants to do his part.

  44. LarryG Says:

    @ rickl

    re: “…I’m not laughing. I think the man is utterly malevolent.”

    The word ‘evil’ comes to mind. Not just inept, but evil.

  45. LAG Says:

    Can someone please give me the definition of ‘smart, cultured’ as used in this sentence?

    “I have to echo what has been said here about Jews incredibly blind support for Obama; smart, cultured people who exhibit unthinking, almost robotic “Stepford Wives” behavior….”

    Israel can’t survive in the ’67 borders, they know it, they will fight rather than submit. We may see it soon, certainly within the lifetimes of most reading this page.

    Obama can take responsibility by feeding unreasonable expectations on one side and implying a failure of support on the other, which BTW he will be forced to give (if he’s in power) should Israel be attacked. (See the latest words on oil & drilling for a sample of how this will work.)

  46. Rachelle Says:

    I used to wonder why the Jewish people didn’t take alarm sooner in Nazi Germany. Some never really did even when the doors of the ‘showers’ were closing on them.

    Now it seems I am seeing the same strange blindness in an otherwise brilliant and perceptive people.

    I still wonder why.

    It isn’t hard for others to see the danger.

  47. T Says:

    Recently a fiscally conservative friend of mine opined that she would be happy w/ a Republican House and Senate even if Obama was relected because then he would have no power.

    Domestically that might be true, but this recent perversion of foreign relations is a perfect example of why we need to oust the Obama cadre from the west wing.

    Another four more years of this and the Israelis will be staring down Iranian nukes in Iran while we stare down Iranian nukes in Venezuela.

  48. Richard Saunders Says:

    We Jews have been good at medicine, law, science, business, etc., etc., etc. But one thing, from the days of the Judges to this very day, we have always stunk at, is politics.

  49. csimon Says:

    With regard to a number of allusions above to Jews being do fearful of Christians — my experience as a Jew who grew up in a rather large but tightknit Jewish community — does not comport with that.

    Did I grow up with a Rabbi who regularly warned me not to marry a gentile? Yep! But that was not a warning born of fear. It was born of fear that the Jewish population, relatively small as it is, will cease to exist as intermarriage fosters generations who may be Jewish by ancestry, but identify less and less with Judaism. Was he wise? Pretty much. Did I, a proud Jew with a very strong Jewish identity take him seriously? Not too much. But only because I am secure in my faith and cannot see myself ever compromising that at someone else’s request. In fact, I tend to respect others who value their cultural and/or religious identities as we have something in common.

    As for the stories of Jews fearing Christians who defend Jews, supposedly for the reason that they believe the Second Coming will not happen until all Jews return to The Promised Land (I think that’s the way it goes) – ah, ah (as in nope!) The stories I’ve heard along those lines have been explained to me by Christians. I don’t know of any Jews who believe that, or fear Christians for any similar reasons. But I suppose there are some.

    But trust me, all Jews that I know are well aware of the hatred endemic among most Muslims – specifically in the Middle East in countries contiguous to Israel or very close by.

    The blind allegiance of the preponderance of Jews to the Democratic Party, as I have said any number of times before has always puzzled me. But there are those of us who are Conservatives. Some of that is due to independent thinking. Some of it is a result of “changing.” Some of it is passed down. (Eric Cantor, the Majority leader in the House of Representatives and the only Jewish Republican in Congress comes from a family which has long been active in Conservative Republican politics. I only know this because one of my best friends from elementary school thru adulthood – married him. And she came from — guess?! A long line of fiercely Democratic Jews!)

    During the civil rights era, there was an understandable alliance of many Jews with the Democratic Party who fought for the civil rights of blacks. This came from an empathy that resulted from a long history of persecution as a people. But that time has long since passed. I don’t think there are very many blacks who are even aware of that anymore thanks to “leaders” like Rev. Farrakhan, Rev. Wright, the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons — and yes — Barack Obama in the same mold. Instead of alliance born of mutual experience, these “leaders” (I use the term loosely) sow divisiveness, class war, envy and blame.

    But many blacks have the same problem as today’s Democratic Jews: blind allegiance and ignorance(?) with regard to which party can and is concerned with their best interests.

    We are slowly seeing some very sigificant lights with clear and confident Conservative voices emerging from the Black population. Whether that is a result of the “changing” or self-realization that so many of us have experienced or independent and reasoned thinking I am not sure.

    The frustration is palpable and especially so when whole groups of people are so committed to a political party that they don’t even want to consider alternatives, let alone partake in discussion. The “why” of that is what is so puzzling. It’s as if there is a great risk in stepping away from “the herd” and that fear: “when you decide to say what you’ve discovered, out loud, you take the risk that everyone you know will look on you as a fool.” (Mamet)

    My reaction is — it’s time to get to know some new people!

    Could it be that simple?

    (By the way, I feel I should note that when I mention “a wealthy connected Democratic family” or use “Eric Cantor” as examples, my intent is not to be a name dropper or impress. It’s just my experience — something some of us Jews refer to as “Jewish Geography.” The Jewish community really truly is quite small and it seems that unlike the “Six Degrees of Separation” many people consider to be the number of links, no matter how obscure, that might connect most people, for some reason among American Jews, I’m guessing the average “degrees of separation” is maybe half that, if that much! It has amazed me throughout my life!

  50. chuck Says:

    Shoa II in slow motion is happening

    I sense a war coming. Israel has always been vulnerable, but it’s enemies haven’t been willing to spend the blood needed to triumph. Up to now. I hope I’m wrong…

  51. "Obama’s speech: throwing Israel under the bus" and related posts » Link Share: Your Guide To News On The Web Says:

    [...] Go to Source Posted by Link Share at 2:40 am [...]

  52. "Obama’s speech: throwing Israel under the bus" and related posts » The One World Focus Says:

    [...] Go to Source Posted by TOWF at 2:39 am Tagged with: Israel, Middle East, Saad Khan Obama, Syria [...]

  53. rickl Says:

    I did a little fisking of a comment at the Market Ticker.

    I hope you find it as enjoyable as I did.

  54. Promethea Says:

    Trismegistus . . .

    I’ve been trying to think of a SHORT answer to your question about “murderous Christian preachers.” Here’s a short answer. I hope it informs.

    Most U.S. Jews have grandparents or great-grandparents who came from Russia or thereabouts. They came to America because of the pogroms instigated by the Russian government and fostered by the Russian priests. Many of them were socialists/utopians.

    They experienced the crass anti-Semitism of the 1920s, exemplified by Henry Ford. Later Father Coughlin broadcast filth. Then came WW 2. Meanwhile, many 2nd-generation Jews experienced various types of restricted covenants, job and school discrimination, and social snobbery–hence the dislike of Republicans who represented that group.

    I’m of the 3rd generation. During the Six-Day War, I saw how my Christian coworkers were quite indifferent to the possibility of another Holocaust. They also had some very weird ideas about Jews, which they refused to give up, even though I tried to educate them. So I basically crossed them off, thinking that with Christianity comes dislike of Jews.

    Then, during the 1980s or 1990s, there were some Christian preachers, I forget their names, who were quite insulting toward Jews.

    After 2003, when I got on the internet, I discovered the many Christians who do support Israel. In fact, they are better supporters than so many liberal Jews I know.

    So, there aren’t really American “murderous Christian preachers” that I can think of. But the perception of Christians that I recounted above is probably typical for many American Jews.

    I hope this explanation isn’t too brief. I’m not trying to argue with you, just to explain the typical American Jewish experience in a nutshell.

  55. Promethea Says:

    csimon . . .

    It’s always fun to play “Jewish geography.” It’s amazing how the six-degrees of separation is a lot shorter among Jews.

    A lot of people don’t understand that being Jewish is kind of tribal in exactly the same way that being Navajo is tribal. We are united by a religion and also by blood. Chances are high that you, csimon, and I are related. We would know quickly if we revealed to each other our families’ European origins.

    No one gets mad at Kurds who call themselves Kurds or Armenians who follow their special Armenian church customs. With Jews, it’s the same kind of tribal connection.

    There are probably similar examples of other peoples who have a kinship/religious connection. Maybe it’s the same as being Sicilian or Berber.

  56. Daniel in Brookline Says:

    Chuck:
    Israel has always been vulnerable, but it’s enemies haven’t been willing to spend the blood needed to triumph.

    I disagree. Israel owes her military successes to many factors (e.g. superb intelligence and a lack of unity among her enemies), but lack of Arab commitment wasn’t one of them.

    In 1967, Egyptian President Nasser pledged to drive the Jews into the sea. (It wasn’t a new promise even then.) Many people have forgotten just how seriously he meant that, and how heavy the costs would have been had Israel not launched a pre-emptive strike. For example, just days before the war started, Egyptian troops were seen in the Sinai, practicing with one-time-use disposable chemical weapons gear. This doesn’t get used in ordinary training, because it has to be thrown away afterwards; you train with the real stuff if you expect to have to use it. A panicky Israel placed an emergency order for over a million gas masks… and got them, ironically enough, from West Germany.

    Jim Murray:
    I wish for the day when an American president will send a private letter to the heads of the PA, Israel, and the UN saying … The US has exhausted its patience with the leadership. Work it out yourselves.

    Mr. Frank has answered that for me, concerning impartiality between the fire brigade and the fire.

    The United States has not exhausted all options in trying to achieve Middle East peace. Rather, they’ve tried the same damn thing over and over — coddle the Palestinians and strong-arm the Israelis, and look puzzled when it doesn’t produce peace.

    As has been said many times: if the Palestinians were to lay down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace. If Israel were to lay down its arms tomorrow, there would be no more Israel. The two sides are not morally equal, and it does no good to pretend that they are.

    President Obama said that the current Middle East status quo is “unsustainable”. He’s quite wrong. The reason the status quo has remained is that, unpalatable though it is, it’s preferable to any of the alternatives. The Palestinians prefer what they call “occupation” to the possibility of having to give up on their long-held cherished demands; the Israelis prefer long-term low-level conflict to the war for her very existence that a return to the pre-1967 borders would inevitably mean.

    President Obama, in the manner of many liberals, has a vocabulary problem. He refers to his preferences as though they were established facts. In this case, he calls the situation “unsustainable” because he wishes it was. What he means is that it’s undesirable, at least for him… which does NOT mean that Other People Must Do Something. (President Obama, it seems, is very good at saying that Other People Must Do Something.)

  57. LEGIO XIII Says:

    Obama believes this will help the Mid-East peace process. He is wrong.

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/05/14/white-house-down-in-middle-east/

  58. annonymous Says:

    EMERGENCY RALLY IN NYC
    FRIDAY
    MAY 20TH

    An emergency rally to protest the outrageous speech of President Barack Obama!
    Friday May 20th at 12:0opm, The Israeli Consulate, 800 2nd Ave & 42nd Street

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/05/nyc-emergency-rally-today-protest-obamas-jihad-against-israel.html

    PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD QUICKLY!!!

  59. T Says:

    Off topic,

    Promethea et. al., speaking of Jewish Tribalism, there was an article some time ago noting that scientists could trace most Azhkenazy Jews through mitochondrial DNA back to about four women. Now THAT’s tribal!

    (I don’t have the citation, but its easy to find with a search)

  60. Parker Says:

    “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.” — Helen Thomas

    I’m not a jew, nor am I a christian, but I am a citizen of western civilization; therefore I support Israel.

  61. Parker Says:

    “Obama believes this will help the Mid-East peace process. He is wrong.”

    I doubt BHO has any interest in a ‘peace process’. He’s merely following the bouncing ball of liberal speak: jews evil, moslems noble.

  62. blert Says:

    Promethea

    “They experienced the crass anti-Semitism of the 1920s, exemplified by Henry Ford.”

    While Ford definitely became anti-Jewish in 1920 — the back story is almost NEVER told.

    Way back in the beginning Ford Motor Co had three stockholders – only – Henry Ford 60% The Dodge Brothers 40%; they got their equity because they were the magic spark behind his cars and held critical patents.

    However, being minority stockholders in FMC proved to the Dodge brothers that they couldn’t shift Henry off some pretty lame ideas. Ultimately Ford bought out their interest.

    The money came from New York City Jews; Jewish Bankers – that’s right. Henry was not wise to the tricks of New York City — and the note had a SHORT FUSE.

    On short notice his Jewish buddies invoked some of the covenants and demanded payment in full September 1, 1920. To refresh your memory: the nation was going through a SEVERE post-war contraction and Wilson was lingering on his death bed. It’s the contraction that triggered the bad performance numbers.

    Anyone with a brain realized that the Jewish bankers were going to steal FMC for a song: 20 cents on the dollar – tops.

    The timing was set for an impossible banking date: the absolute height of cyclically tight money around the harvest — America still a farm centered nation. Further, the payment demand was made so close to the due date that the staggering sum necessary should prove impossible to raise. Certainly, no American bank would syndicate such a loan: the Jews knew how sloppy Ford kept his books!

    His bankers were in for a shock. Ford handed their demand off onto every dealer he had in the world: every one had to immediately stump up payment in full for the vehicles on their lots and WIRE not mail cashier’s funds to FMC credit at NYC.

    Now what happened was a banking miracle. All over America dealer after dealer ran to their own town bank and raised funds. Often, they were the banker themselves. So comes the final countdown and the telegraph wires are humming: tens of millions of dollars are wired into NYC — and one of the biggest ‘private’ notes in history was paid off on time.

    When Ford’s man walked in to the assembled creditors they were glum. They’d gotten advance notice that Ford was finished with them.

    THAT is where Ford’s anti-Jewish streak came from. He never had it until they screwed him.

    Now that the dealers were in hock all over America — they were getting screwed by their bankers.

    Ford solved the whole situation by inventing the Manufacturer’s Bank: Ford Motor Credit.
    ( GMAC is its clone. )

    FMC explicitly would not accept Jewish money, per se. Instead, it sought funding from insurance companies and the like. It turned around and provided wholesale credit to the dealers ( ‘flooring’ ) and consumer durables credit ( ‘retail paper’ ) with the dealers getting a slice of the credit profit.

    So a scam by ruthless Jewish financial interests blew up in their faces and created a whole new banking entity: the ‘manufacturer’s bank.’ Now they are as common as dust.

    Ford was no bigot. He never held any anti-Jewish sentiment until the day they went for all of his marbles. After that — it was the feud.

    So for all of the Jews ragging on Ford — tip your hat to your own sharpies. Without them events would have gone very differently.

    BTW, the Jews were getting premium rates of return — because it was a hard money quick cash out for the Dodge brothers. Getting rid of their note made Ford even richer than before. Now he was a dominant manufacturer AND dominant banker. FMC instantly became one of the biggest financial institutions in America!

  63. neo-neocon Says:

    blert:

    Ford was an anti-Semite long before that.

    And it’s interesting that you give no source for your story. However, let’s assume it’s true; would that justify Ford’s turning against all Jews? That’s the very definition of bigotry: to blame the aggregate for the actions of a few, and/or to blame those actions on race or ethnicity.

  64. Gary Rosen Says:

    “the Jews were getting premium rates of return”

    All “the Jews”? Only if you’re a twisted antisemitic bigot to begin with, blert.

  65. Gary Rosen Says:

    “blert:

    Ford was an anti-Semite long before that”

    Don’t bother, neo. Antisemites never let the facts get in the way of a good Jew-baiting story.

  66. Gary Rosen Says:

    “For anyone who does not know, the very charter of Hamas and its key objective is the destruction of Israel.”

    The Hamas charter explicitly calls for the murder of *Jews*. Not just Israelis, Zionists and “settlers”. Jews, period.

  67. Richard Aubrey Says:

    csimon
    Your experience is…your experience. The advocacy groups’ fundraising doesn’t point to the threat from Muslims–that may change–does it?
    It seems many, if not most, Jews are liberals first and Jews second. Of course, that may not actually seem accurate, since there are few instances of Jews publicly lamenting their conflicts between the two. Perhaps it’s a different issue: To be a Jew means to be liberal.
    In any event, it’s an odd picture.
    I wish I could recall the saying, it refers to some NYC geography and its social significance, about moving on up and becoming liberal as being connected processes. IOW, moving on up requires the change, or at least not letting your coreligionists know you didn’t change.

  68. Oblio Says:

    Neo, let’s never complain about slow news days until Mr. Obama leaves office.

  69. Trimegistus Says:

    Promethea:

    Okay, you’ve cited some examples — some quite old examples, by the way — of antisemitism in America.

    What’s the body count? Does lukewarm support of Israel in the Six-Day War (which your gentile acquaintances may have been worried would lead to World War III between the US and USSR) equate to, oh, breaking into a house and slitting the throats of everyone there including little children? Yes or no?

    I’m going to assume you are sane, and the answer is no. There is a genuine difference, not merely one of degree, between old-school WASP snobbery and/or simple disinterest on the one hand, and literal murderous savagery on the other. There is no equivalence.

    Which is what is so incomprehensible and frustrating to American conservatives, both Christian and otherwise. Faced with the choice between a side which may have once been snobbish but now strongly supports Israel’s right to exist, and a side which may have historically welcomed Jews but right now sides with those who want to murder all of them, American Jews mysteriously choose the second option.

    Apparently getting snubbed at the country club back in 1963 is an unforgivable offense, but giving aid and comfort to Hamas and Hezbollah isn’t.

  70. Mike Mc. Says:

    He has invited war, chaos, and catastrophe, and they will surely rsvp.

    It’s another case of the way they talk in the faculty lounge over 20 years, and what that comes to when one of them is the President.

    It is less and less likely to me that the World, let alone America, will survive Obama in anything like reasonable shape.

  71. neo-neocon Says:

    I think csimon was trying to explain the attitude of some Jews, not her own attitude.

    I don’t think most Jews are unaware of the murderous intentions of jihadi Islamists. Nor do I think most Jews consider Christians to be the danger anymore. I just think that liberalism trumps all for many people. And I believe (though I haven’t read it) that this might be a very good book to turn to in an attempt to answer the question of “why?”

  72. Promethea Says:

    Trimegistus . . .

    I was trying to give an idea of the background of liberal Jews’ attitudes. I’m not trying to defend these attitudes in 2011.

    To bring you up to date, the Presbyterian Church PCUSA?, many of the liberal Episopalians, Unitarians, Obama’s “church” and others are supporters of the “oppressed” Palestinians and work against the “hateful” Jews. This is now.

    But anyway, I was trying to make a point, not defend bigotry.

  73. Artfldgr Says:

    Legio: Obama believes this will help the Mid-East peace process. He is wrong.

    no he isnt…
    he is right, but not the way we want him to be right… [as the post a while back said, you read what they read to think like they think, otherwise your going to be confused... because your going to limit your thinking to ACCPTABLE and REASONABLE options, and they are going to act AUDACIOUSLY and take the solution that is not acceptable, or reasonable, or expected, but is EXPEDIENT or rather PRAGMATIC as sociopathic pragmatism is a part of their philosophy]

    Stalin said: No man, no problem…

    Leftists say: No gun, no problem…

    Racialists say: No poor white men (which includes jews) no problem

    Feminists say: no men, no problem
    “If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” — Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001

    They are saying: No Israel, no problem

    No oil or coal – no problems
    no families – no problem
    no self determination any more – no problem

    see a pattern?
    i do.. (those quotes i put up are not outliers but core thinkers and have been since before i was born!)

    CHANGE you can BELIEVE in…

  74. Promethea Says:

    Trimegistus . . .

    An analogous situation would be the black Americans’ constant reference to the bad old days, even though they have little complain about today.

    One of my “hobbies” is to discover which groups dislike which groups. (Shanghai v. Beijing, for example) I could start writing a list here, but my point is just to give you some background.

  75. Trimegistus Says:

    When Jews fret about right-wing Christians, it isn’t the milk-and-water mainstream Protestants they’re talking about. It’s the Evangelical Christians — the ones who are the most outspoken in their support of Israel. All very strange and puzzling.

  76. Promethea Says:

    As I recall, there are some Evangelical Christians who made their mission to convert Jews to Christianity. This is extremely insulting to Jews. There is nothing “strange and puzzling” about this.

  77. Harry Says:

    I’m an evangelical christian (pastor to boot if that makes any difference). There is a difference btw the main line Christians and evangelical Christians. There are liberal Christians whose leaders tend towards the cultural liberal tennants that evangelicals reject as not being biblically based.

    Evangelical Christians for the most part will support the Jewish right to a homeland because they see a biblical mandate. They also love Israel because God does. Here’s the rub though, the new testament, God in His love for Israel wants to call her to a new relationship wi Him based on Jesus. I’m not trying to prosteltise (I know I spelled it wrong), I’m just providing reference. Anyway the outcome is a support for the Jewish homeland – we find ourselves strongly connected to the Jews but this tension because we come at relationship from a different point of view.

    Add into the mix Islam – a common enemy of both Jews and Christians.

  78. Trimegistus Says:

    So hoping to convert someone to your religion is worse than, y’know, murdering them?

    I mean, for fuck’s sake, are modern American liberal Jews stupid or something? I know it’s sometimes a little tedious when some extremely devout person buttonholes you at the bus stop and wants to “talk about Jesus,” but I think I can withstand that better than some extremely devout person strapping on an explosive vest and trying to kill everyone on the bus.

  79. Promethea Says:

    Harry . . .

    Thanks for your response. I’m not trying to get into an argument with Trimegestus.

    It’s clear that we all have different and varied faiths. Jews also follow many different faiths–the Jewish world is a very large world. That’s one thing I could never get my Christian co-workers to understand. They thought us Jews were all alike and moved in lockstep.

    I hope non-Jews who support Israel don’t have a mistaken view of it. It’s not a little paradise. It’s varied just like the USA is varied. I love Israel. It’s worth defending. It’s a wonderful country, and Judaism is essential to continuing civilization.

    For proof, look how Europe became a dead husk once it destroyed all its Jews. Meanwhile, the U.S. has flourished. Even though the Jews in the U.S. became stupid and supported Obama and his statist ilk. I like to think that’s a passing phase in Jewish history, which is quite long and full of twists and turns.

    Right now I’m reading Paul Johnson’s “A History of the Jewish People.” It’s well worth reading for an overview.

  80. Promethea Says:

    Trimegistus . . .

    Jeepers, I think that you’re just in a bad mood today. I have nothing further to say to you that I haven’t already said. Please check my very humble first post to you this morning. If you don’t care to be informed, that’s OK.

  81. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    I’m neither an evangelical Christian or a student of religion. I have always understood the support of evangelicals for Israel, but I’ve never seen it expressed quite like Ann Barnhardt did the other day in her speech (cancceled because of possible violence) that she was supposed to give to a group of Jews in Boston.

    I cannot do justice to her thesis so, if you want a view of why we all should be supporting Israel and the Jews take a look at the text of her speech.
    http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/citizens/ann_barnhardt_the_boston.php#014616

    It’s well worth the time.

  82. Richard Saunders Says:

    It took me a while, but I realized that blert’s little fable is just “The Merchant of Venice” set in Detroit. Henry Ford (Antonio) borrows from Jewish bankers (Shylock) without, apparently, knowing or caring what the note says. When it comes time to pay, he doesn’t have the money. So, of course, it’s the Jews’ fault for living up to the terms of their bargain, not Henry’s fault for not living up to his. Got it.

    At least in Shakespeare, we get the “Hath not a Jew eyes?” speech.

  83. Artfldgr Says:

    Obama at AIPAC: Let the Fun Begin

    President Obama’s advisors wanted him to get out in front of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s address to a joint session of Congress on Monday. So they preempted Bibi’s own peace proposal by having Obama call for Israel to return to its 1967 borders, give or take a few land swaps.

    There was one problem with the timing. It overlooked the fact that President Obama is addressing the largest gathering of AIPAC ever this coming Sunday, with 10,000 pro-Israel activists in attendance. It’ll be fun to see what happens. Here is Obama who just became the first president to ever call on Israel to return to the 1967 lines going in front, just three days later, of the largest annual gathering of Jews and Israel supporters. What were the President’s advisors thinking?

    http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/opinion/obama_aipac_let_fun_begin

  84. Curtis Says:

    Thanks JJFJJ. What a great speech, a great lady, a great read.

  85. Curtis Says:

    I call bullshit on any compromise should Israel be thinking of it. No land because there’s no refugees. I feel so frustrated as to take a gangster like approach and just start shooting. Fuck!

    How can there be refugees after 60 years?

    How about recognizing that Israel should also be Jordon? That they got screwed out of 9 tenths of their promised land? Who, before 1967,even among the Arabs, thought there was a “Palestine.”

    I happened to review on Youtube the other day, the song by the Scorpians, “Wind of Change.” Its about the fall of communism in Europe. I thought how ironic it was for European socialists to celebrate the doings of a conservative capitalist American President, Ronald Reagan.

    Now, we have the anti-Reagan. AND MAKE NO MISTAKE LET ME CLEAR, (I’m being sarcastic with the capital letters) the “Arab Spring” is Obama’s legacy as surely as the fall of communism was Reagans.

  86. Bob from Virginia Says:

    Bibi was just on TV explaining to Obama why Israel will not go back to the 1967 borders and other stuff every child in Israel knows by the time he is ten. Obama was being lectured to as a child. Can anyone recall or have heard of such a performance? One wonders how many of the audience were able to catch the significance of what happened.

    Obama will certainly be more anti-Israel now. Frauds do not like to be reminded that they frauds.

  87. Curtis Says:

    Bibi’s speech to Obama:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/20/video-netanyahu-lectures-obama-on-why-israels-1967-borders-are-indefensible/

    As one commenter said: Bibi took him to school, took his lunch money, gave him a wedgie, and shoved him into the girls’ room.

  88. Artfldgr Says:

    Now it seems I am seeing the same strange blindness in an otherwise brilliant and perceptive people.

    I still wonder why.

    it has to do with whether your schemas short cuts use proxies for thinking..

    then your desire to be reasonable, and not be seen as a tin hatter, or tons of names and things that the left, and others say when you point things out.

    another thing is that we are trained in the west to fill blanks in with out own happy story… so the more obfuscating and indirect, the more one can add their own story..

    if you want to see it full blown.. go read the arguments between me and hux… he was the person who was betting on reasonable, rather than facts.

    its playing the odds… which works MOST of the time
    and often when it doesnt work, the difference isnt that major.

    however, with modern think tank designed despotism and social engineering as a partial science… such makes us completely open and vulnerable.

    the moment we fell in love with our cancers, like racial movements, studies movements, and ESPECIALLY feminism… the cornerstone…

    the end became a fait accompli…

    as it still is… and as i was yelled at long ago for saying so… now its long after, nothing has changed, no one has made more progress in learning about them, their beleifs their ideas and so on..

    almost all are perfectly wiling to sit around and fill in the blanks with made up stuff, and refuse to read papers that reveal thinking, and in general get upset when someone points out that there is no tea in the cups and the cucumber sandwhiches are not real, and that br bear really isnt making an argument that is cogent.

    even being right over and over again, is not enough to shake everyones desire to be their own hero in the story…

    even basic common sense that lions hang out with lions and so on would have been enough to stop the whole train int he past… but now, we have to be irrationally reasonable and not rush to judgement and all that…

    which basically means… dont call him a despot until your head is on the chopping block and the point is moot… for you may be wrong… *(who cares if your right? every one gets angry at that… safer to all be wrong and make up stuff and remain equal)

    its lining up the way i said if we didnt finish the one line in the sand of turkey iran iraq, etc…

    and we are finding out that a communist is a communist. and does what communists do…

    what is that?

    easy… claim utopia
    mismanage everything
    blame the decline on those trying to stop it, moriarty, etc..
    then seize all power as the only solution to make things work…

    the rest is history.. no?

  89. Artfldgr Says:

    How can there be refugees after 60 years?

    easy….

    latvians are refugees…
    even their children, like me got the bug
    its a different state of mind than immigrating…

    you see.. when you immigrate, you go to a new home

    when you are a refugee, you go to a new home and someday hope to go back home…

    the going home is the key to understanding it.
    its the difference between selling your home, and being forced out.

    funny… but there were latvians who paid off a few years rent on the hopes that when the war was over, they could return..

    and interesting… my childhood was full of the remembrances of a land that would never be again.

    i have eatn the food. heard the language. the tears, the memories… stories of amber on the beaches.

    but i will probably never see it now..

    i too long for a home, whether there, or here, that i will never have…

    so i can easily understand it..

    no matter how great your new home is, when your forced out of your old one, it doesnt matter.

  90. Artfldgr Says:

    I happened to review on Youtube the other day, the song by the Scorpians, “Wind of Change.” Its about the fall of communism in Europe. I thought how ironic it was for European socialists to celebrate the doings of a conservative capitalist American President, Ronald Reagan.

    i would you suggest the recent winner of a european song contest..

    the war is not over…

    and look up the Estonian and Latvian singing revolution!!!!

    a liberal is a person who pretends to stand up to power that wont touch him….

    a patriot, is a person who stands up and sings daring them to shoot him or cut them down..

    no?

    what if the protesters shot in syria, were all standing singing… what would the syrian government look like then?

    Eurovision 2005 Final 23 Latvia *Walters & Kazha* *The War Is Not Over* 16:9 HQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olhn1FWuWNU

  91. Artfldgr Says:

    i forgot to mention that they are also singing for the deaf to hear… if you notice

    and if you want to understand refugee..

    Singing Revolution (Way to Freedom) (lituania)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBNcjaQws-0

    and what remains

    Incredible mass singing – Latvian Song festival
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baaX4-1_df0

    The Singing Revolution Film (estonia)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA9PmZo-2jo

    the estonian and lituanian clips show why…

    if that was your life experience, would you not fear hearing of social justice again.

    600km line of singers…

    if 20,000 people start to sing one song.
    then what?

    nothing comes close in the american experience.

    now they still sing…

    and i hoped one day to go and see what it was like for severa thousand choirs and orchestras to all perform at once.

    when you look at the crowd in those images.
    thats not the crowd.. thats the performers.

    in fact… it would be equal to 20% of the US showing up in one place to listen..

    they wont forget..
    they dont forget..

    the war is not over…

  92. Artfldgr Says:

    the singing thing is called the Baltic way of revolution..

    a million people singing at once..

    you TRY to stop them…

    what you going to do? cut them all down?
    what would the world do then?

    600 km long line..

    hands across america was a COPY…
    a plagerized nothing compared to it…

    you want to stop whats happening..

    SING… SING like you never sang before

    for if you dont..

    you will not be allowed to sing, like we were not allowed…

  93. Artfldgr Says:

    the baltic chain

    Baltic Way 20th anniversary marked – 23 Aug 09
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0uO41WGgaY&NR=1

    20 years after two million people joined hands against the SOVIETS, and linked up three countries…

    listen carefully to the interview when he says what to imagine…

    its hard to find stuff as a lot is in latvian, estonian, or lituanian…

    most are too ignroant of their own history, let alone to learn from others.

  94. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    When Obama suggests that Jerusalem is to be divided, and that Hamas is to get Old Jerusalem as part of the deal, this means that many of the most holy sites for Christians, not just for Jews, are to be given to Hamas, according to one website they include:

    The Garden of Gethsemane
    Chapel of the Ascension
    The Tomb of the Virgin
    The Tower of David
    The Wailing Wall
    The Via Delarosa (the final steps of Jesus Christ)
    The tomb of Jesus Christ
    The Church of St. Anne
    The Church of the Flagellation
    The Church of All Nations
    The site of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

    That is what our Muslim mole in the White House suggests the Jews (and us Christians) give up to Hamas.

    I wonder why Obama did not go into detail about just what he was proposing to be given up to Hamas, so that not only all Jews but all Christians could understand just what he was proposing giving away?

  95. Curtis Says:

    Thanks Art, for reminding me there can be legitimate refugees after 60 years. But they are still not refugees who can claim living in transition. What you describe is a spiritual refugee-ness.

    Am I too understand that it was the singing and not Reagan which took down the wall?

    I would like it too be so but I don’t think so.

  96. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    And what do Muslims do when they get control of Jewish and Christian Holy sites? Well, their traditional practice is to desecrate and destroy any sacred church, temple, or other place of worship of us “unbelievers,” and often to build a Mosque on top of the rubble–see the proposal by Muslims to build a Mosque at Ground Zero in New York city–and their behavior today is no different.

    This past Easter, for instance, Muslim “policemen” yelling “Allahu Akbar” killed a Jew who had come to visit Joseph’s Tomb in Muslim controlled Nablus, and then Muslim “youths” set the tomb on fire (see http://wn.com/ARABS_CELEBRATE_EASTER_BY_KILLING_A_JEW_AND_BURN_JOSEPH%27S_TOMB and http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/04/palestinians-torch-josephs-tomb-after-police-slaughter-israeli-worshipper/),
    and during the Muslim occupation of the Church of the Nativity in Old Jerusalem a few years ago, the Muslim occupiers apparently spent most of their time pissing on the place where Christ was traditionally supposed to have been born (see http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/05/islamists-pied-on-christs-birthplace-now-obama-wants-to-give-them-access-to-christs-grave/) .

  97. Curtis Says:

    Again, thanks, Art, for the links. They are beautiful. I am sure I do not know enough about the history and do not wish to minimize the incredible story.

  98. Mike Mc. Says:

    So hoping to convert someone to your religion is worse than, y’know, murdering them?

    I mean, for fuck’s sake, are modern American liberal Jews stupid or something? I know it’s sometimes a little tedious when some extremely devout person buttonholes you at the bus stop and wants to “talk about Jesus,” but I think I can withstand that better than some extremely devout person strapping on an explosive vest and trying to kill everyone on the bus.

    Thanks for the reality check.

  99. rickl Says:

    I’m an agnostic, neither Christian nor Jewish, although I had a nominally Christian upbringing.

    I support Israel because I support civilization over barbarism.

  100. Oblio Says:

    Neo, you should do a piece on Henry Ford. The story of his anti-semitic campaign in the Dearborn Independent from 1920-1922 has tremendous salience in the historical memory of American Jewish community. Non-Jews have probably never heard of it, or have only vaguely heard of it.

  101. rickl Says:

    Oblio:
    I wouldn’t mind reading about that. I’m one who has only vaguely heard of it, although blert’s post last night was interesting.

    So I naturally have to wonder: Are Jews less likely to own Fords than other people?

    Full disclosure: I’m not Jewish, and I’ve never owned a Ford.

  102. Oblio Says:

    We have a Jewish friend who made that point to Mrs. Oblio last week, apropos of nothing in particular. She said she would never own a Ford. On the other hand, she drives a BMW, her father has a Mercedes, and her daughter drives a bright yellow VW bug. Conclusion, Henry Ford’s antisemitism was a very big deal.

  103. Gary Rosen Says:

    My own observation on Jews owning Fords: it was very common in the wake of the Holocaust for Jews to refuse to buy German cars; I heard of a few Jews who refused to buy Fords because of the old man’s antisemitism but not nearly as many.

    My father bought the family a Ford station wagon in 1962 but around the same time, when Volkswagens were getting popular, bought a Renault as a second car. He never said it outright but I always suspected it was because VWs were German.

    However the Renault was a terrible piece of junk and eventually my father “gave in” and bought a VW. Not long after this France under deGaulle became much more pro-Arab and anti-Israel so apparently my father’s mechanical judgment was vindicated :^) – memories of my father calling deGaulle “that miserable bastard”.

  104. Gary Rosen Says:

    Come to think of it, I’m not sure if my father’s ange at deGaulle was because of his Mideast policy or the lousy car – probably both.

  105. rickl Says:

    My dad was a WWII vet and he would never consider buying a German or Japanese car. Fortunately, during my childhood American cars were still generally superior.

  106. Richard Aubrey Says:

    Couple of points:
    I was in college during the ’67 War. My buddies and I thought it was pretty slick, the way the IDF and the IAF schooled their enemies. Everybody was interested and impressed and figured justice triumphed. We were sorry, six years later, that it took so much more blood and effort.
    Saw no “indifference” except from the campus lefties who reflexively take the side of evil.
    I can vouch for the PCUSA, at least the hierarchy. From time to time, a PCUSA pewdweller will publish a letter to a congresscritter who happens to be a PCUSA person as well, informing him that the PCUSA hierarchy does not reflect the views of the PCUSA pew-dweller (and voter). I have suggested from time to time that it’s as if Louisville (short hand for our HQ) got taken over by the SDS after they got quicky divinity degrees.
    Others look at me as if to say I’m slow. You’re just figuring that out?
    They are as reflexively lefty as the CPUSA. Always on the wrong side of history. But they lie better than the commies. They’re real good at it.
    My creds: Been following them for about thirty years. Spent about five years on a presbytery peace&justice committee, getting plugged in. Some of them actually think I’m on their side and send me insider stuff.

  107. chuck Says:

    Conclusion, Henry Ford’s antisemitism was a very big deal.

    Perhaps. Yet when I was young I had a piano teacher who had been in the Abraham Lincoln brigade and blacklisted in the fifties. One would think he might eschew German cars, but no, he owned a Volkswagen. I think the chief reason for the Volkswagen’s popularity among such types was that it was small, cheap, and lacking in decoration, hence symbolized the proletariat. And indeed, the car was conceived by Hitler as a worker’s car. The underlying socialist advertisement persisted when the car finally came into production after the war and attracted those who could read the signs.

  108. rickl Says:

    Testing

  109. blert Says:

    Neo-neocon:

    “However, let’s assume it’s true; would that justify Ford’s turning against all Jews?”

    Now you know why the Dodge brothers bailed out. They were sick and tired of arguing with a bull-headed man.

    Far less a bigot that a strong willed crotchety old man.

    He was just as bull headed dealing with the railroads and his own engineers.

    If he was a raging Jew hater why in the world would he put himself at their mercy?

    His feud with Jewry was like most feuds: irrational.

    Anyone who has studied his story knows him to be bull headed until the point of folly. Yet, sometimes his follies paid off big.

    ( Like the rubber plantation gig in the Amazon. )

    —–

    Anti-semitism…

    I know it’s going to break your heart…

    But my best friend is a Jew. (Ashkenazi)

    My first love was a Jew (Ashkenazi)

    And, what else, my father was in the lead at Omaha Beach June 6th.

    You lose.

    Henry Ford is an extremely poor example of anti-Semitism.

    As a poster boy for bull-headedness, yeah.

    Of course, that’s exactly why the Dodge brothers wanted out — and why Henry couldn’t/wouldn’t get conventional funding.

    He turned to the ‘hard money crowd’ which is massively Jewish — just live with it.

    For further examples of hard money lending please review “The Pawnbroker.”

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059575/

    Here’s where my Uncle spent his body:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3EyslZOwAg&feature=related

    If 9th Armored hadn’t taken the Remagen Bridge he’d have been done for.

    Claiming victim status WRT Ford is inappropriate.

    For anyone seriously interested, read about the beginnings of Ford Motor Acceptance Corporation; GMAC and the beginnings of durable goods credit.

    Ford, in some circles, is regarded as more significant for this creation than any of his manufacturing feats. For it spread across all durables markets.

    In the 1920′s what I’ve posted here passed as common knowledge. Today, I sound like a kook.

    NO WAY did I make the story up.

    Hit the books, and learn.

    Cheers.

  110. blert Says:

    Richard Saunders Says:

    It’s much worse than that.

    Henry pays them off on time and way ahead of the normal term of the note.

    And they are PISSED.

    Henry then, drops almost all priorities to rag upon the Jews! Hence his screeds ( magically ) start in 1920!

    Imagine that!

    Buddy, it’s not anti-Semitism. It’s the feud.

    They went after all his marbles and all of a sudden he’s after them in print and deed.

    BTW, for those unaware, the Jewish syndicate actually wanted to re-extend the note — now that it was obvious he was a gusher of money.

    Too late.

    The feud was on. But it was much more than Jews. It was bankers as a class. Hence, the creation of Ford Motor Acceptance Corporation.

    It was a REVOLUTION in finance. It still exists.

    When you want to buy a white appliance on credit — NOW you know where the system began.

    BTW, this is NOT Politically Correct to teach in college today.

    So, it isn’t.

    You need to dive into very old musty written records to find out the story.

    Nazis = insane Jew haters

    Islamist = insane Jew haters

    Ford = one pissed off industrialist who ALMOST lost the largest manufacturing enterprise in the world to hard money lenders.

    Something he though unimaginable until the notice of pending default hammered him in the face.

    BTW, until Henry did it, no one ever raised remotely that much money on such short notice. The syndicate waited until the very last moment to drop the bomb on Ford.

    He NEVER forgave them.

    So when you read about his crazed Jew hatred — remember it really got started in 1920.

    The idea that he was seriously anit-Semitic before then — does NOT add up.

    BTW, he accepted the hard money offer — ahead of another syndicate — precisely because the Jews gave him prompt relief. He was willing to pay ( what turned out to be ) quite a premium to get the Dodge brothers out the door FAST.

    This, again, speaks to his emotions. Later antics would prove over and over that Ford was excessively driven by emotional ‘thinking’ when it came to big decisions.

    His flaws are as big as his talents.

    —–

    If you want anti-Semites they are all over the history of the 20th Century: Stalin, Hitler… good grief…

    What industrialist built death camps? Not any American.

    Equating Ford with those monsters trivializes their crimes.

    Just don’t do it.

  111. blert Says:

    Neo-Neocon…

    Read your hyper-link…

    All that it did was confirm my time-line.

    In 1915 he was willing to charter a ship to stop/ end WWI with a Jewish gal…

    And… SUDDENLY… out of nowhere… he’s a raving Jew hater, in 1920.

    EVERYTHING turns on his ownership of Ford Motor Company.

    That’s what happened to his Jewish relations.

    Thanks for the link.

    Cheers.

  112. Gary Rosen Says:

    ” my best friend is a Jew”

    Where have I heard that before? Not working.

  113. Gary Rosen Says:

    “Read your hyper-link…

    All that it did was confirm my time-line.”

    There wasn’t a word in that link that confirmed *any* of your antisemitic bullsh*t. In fact it showed that Ford’s antisemitism was already apparent even at the time of the “peace ship”.

    But thanks for proving once again my contention that antisemites are liars, nitwits, and born losers, blert.

  114. Exercises for Losing Arm Fat Says:

    Exercises for Losing Arm Fat…

    [...]neo-neocon » Blog Archive » Obama’s speech: throwing Israel under the bus[...]…

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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