July 26th, 2011

Breivik, writers, and the responsibility for violence

So, was J.D. Salinger to blame for the murder of John Lennon?

It’s an absurd question, on the face of it: of course he wasn’t. But as Mark David Chapman, Lennon’s killer, stood waiting to fire the fatal bullets, he had a copy of Salinger’s Catcher in the Rye on his person, and cited it later as the inspiration for his crime:

At some point, Chapman became obsessed with The Catcher in the Rye after rereading it for the first time since high school. He was particularly influenced by protagonist Holden Caulfield’s polemics against “phoniness” in society, and the need to protect people, especially children. He was holding a copy of the book when he murdered Lennon, in which he had written “This is my statement.” After his arrest, he wrote a letter to the media urging everyone to read the “extraordinary book” that may “help many to understand what has happened.” When asked if he wanted to address the court at his sentencing, Chapman read a passage from The Catcher in the Rye that describes Holden Caulfield’s fantasy of being on the edge of a cliff and having to catch all children from falling. A psychiatrist at the sentencing, Daniel W. Schwartz, said that Chapman wanted to kill Lennon because he viewed him as a “phony.” Chapman later said that he thought the murder would turn him into a Holden Caulfield, a “quasi-savior” and “guardian angel.”

I’m not sure whether there has ever been a case of a book being implicated so explicitly in a murder. And yet there is little doubt that Salinger was innocent of all wrongdoing. For Chapman to have connected the dots—to have gone from Salinger’s depiction of a troubled teenager adrift in Manhattan, who rails against “phonies” and who wants to protect children from growing up and losing their innocence, to murder—required a special disorder of the mind that for the sake of brevity we’ll call madness but that we really don’t understand very well. Let’s just say there was no logical connection between Salinger’s work and Chapman’s behavior, except in Chapman’s own disordered psyche.

Salinger’s lack of culpability is clear, because the connection between his book and Chapman’s act was so obviously tenuous. But what of political violence, such as the acts of Anders Behring Breivik, the perpetrator in Oslo and on Utoya? Is it any surprise that many on the left have blamed the right—and especially some bloggers on the right whose works Breivik quoted approvingly in his magnum opus manifesto—for inspiring Breivik to commit his heinous and cold-blooded murders?

But rational discussions of a problem, or its artistic treatment—whether the subject be some negative consequences of the influx of immigrants to European countries, the moral questions involved in abortion, or the interface between adolescent angst and phonies in the New York of the 1940s—are not responsible for causing violence to be committed in their name. Twisted minds are responsible for doing that—although calls for violence can exacerbate those twisted minds. But the bloggers’ critics are not accusing them of explicit calls for violence, although that is the distinguishing factor that would lead to some form of responsibility. In fact, those bloggers have explicitly condemned Breivik’s violence and its ilk.

And what of Islamicist terrorism? Is Islam itself to blame for those acts, or all Muslims? No. Even if Islam is a religion that contains elements which modern western culture abhors, such as restrictions on the freedom of women, it is not automatically culpable for violence committed in its name. But a religion would bear some culpability for such acts to the extent that it dictates violence, as would those adherents who advocate violence to further the Islamicist cause—especially clerics who explicitly call for war against the infidel in the name of the deity, and who glorify the martyrdom of those who wage it—almost as responsible as those who recruit, supply, and train terrorists. And, unfortunately, in some portions of the Muslim world, such actions have become all too common.

As more facts emerge about the Oslo killer, the closest parallels to Breivik’s act appear to have been two Americans. The first is Unabomber Ted Kaczynski (from whom Breivik cribbed a significant portion of his manifesto), and the second is abolitionist John Brown of Harper’s Ferry infamy. John Brown was a fanatic who took a good cause and turned it into a justification for murder; Kaczynski took a cause that was at least arguably well-intentioned and turned did likewise, although Brown had followers and Kaczynski was a loner. In both cases, as with Breivik, they thought their acts would inspire others to do the same. They were both mistaken. The consensus of opinion is that they both were somewhat unbalanced, and had became untethered from the views of more moderate advocates of their causes, although they were still capable of logical thought and organized action. That seems to be the case for Breivik, as well.

But being unbalanced is not at all the same as having diminished criminal responsibility. That defense should be reserved for someone with a history of full-blown schizophrenia or some other profound psychosis that dictated his or her crime, the old “I heard voices that told me to do it.” But the “voices” cannot be those of bloggers such as Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, nor Gates of Vienna (nor of classical liberal John Stuart Mill, whom Breivik also quoted approvingly). And, unless new information comes to light that indicates psychosis of this type, Breivik should bear the full and complete responsibility for his acts. He, and he alone, hatched his plans for years in the secrecy of his mind and heart, and executed them with his own hands.

42 Responses to “Breivik, writers, and the responsibility for violence”

  1. expat Says:

    His family was also less than exemplary. That could certainly factor in to his motivation. As to his being social, it is possible that he participated in social activities but that he always he felt above his associates, like the only one smart enough to see the truth. Anchoress speculated the other day about the photos of him as looking professional and being posed to make him look good. l Someone with a serious personality disorder is likely to become obsessed with the cause du jour. There are plenty of nuts in environmental and animal rights movements. Who can say whether one is a psycopath.

  2. DirtyJobsGuy Says:

    My liberal family members quickly reiterated the MSM theme of here’s a Christian (yes/no?) Right Wing terrorist. There is almost a sense of relief from them. The whole Christian fundamentalist/terrorist thing is astounding to me. My guess is that unless you can create in your mind the a relativistic equivalent to Islamic Terrorism you are required to face facts.

    This guy is a classic nutcase (Oklahoma City, Unabomber, Columbine, VT etc.) with all that goes with that rather than any kind of organized threat. The only prevention for these types is an ability to corral true insanity cases early and also to ensure that basic self defense means are available (the Norwegian Cops look worst than Keystone Kops). All this is unsatisfying to the left. Aggressive mental health confinement and personal self defense are not in their worldview.

  3. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    In the context of this thread, a few items of note.

    It has been reported that Breivik’s Facebook page was altered immediately after he carried out his massacre by adding the terms “Christian” and “conservative” to his profile (see https://romanticpoet.wordpress.com/tag/anders-behring-breivik-facebook-page-altered-to-show-christian-and-conservative/).

    Now, who would do this and why?

    Second, according to reports, under the Norwegian justice system–in which the death penalty is banned–the greatest penalty that Breivik can be subject to–no matter how many people he killed or how horrific his crimes–is 21 years in prison, and he would also be eligible for some sort of early release that could cut his sentence even more.

  4. Artfldgr Says:

    In both cases, as with Breivik, they thought their acts would inspire others to do the same. They were both mistaken.

    As Lenin and the Bolsheviks began to consolidate their power in other parts of Russia, it was expected that the rest of Europe would follow suit and bring an end to the First World War. Despite Lenin’s belief the proletariat did not rise up against their capitalist masters and overthrow the government. By early 1918 Lenin decided it was time to negotiate peace.

    the same was true with eugenics and margaret sangers extermination of the blacks through abortion and socially engineering them to want to.

    which is why AFTER hitler, they switched to a different game… in fact a game that Breivik details… where one finds the single selling point and then paints a picture where all other answers are not right, and so the one dimensional isolated idea is the one that dominates… so abortion is a social good… but with social engineering, how can you be sure who is aborting, is not influenced by social engineers and planning? in fact, no one cares to look.

    so what you find in these people is that no one rallies to their social movement…

    they fantasize that they are napoleon leaving elba and marching to france… and the world falling in and making them emperor… and some bizarre form of love and adulation will happen…

    but no…
    the COMMON man would not follow such

    which is why each of these groups resort to lying, misrepresentation, dissimulation, etc.

    to the point where no one knows if up is truthful or not.

    Breivik did what he did because the side that he opposed made sure there was no way to oppose them, their ideas, or what they will do to others sans their permission.

    its WRONG to put it all on Breivik, when your talking about people socially engineering history… and copying stalins games of social unrest by moving foreign bodies into states for constant disruption!!!!!!!!

    ie… THEY WANT YOU TO BLAME HIM SO YOU DONT BLAME THEM for the policies they made, and then the rules preventing them from being changed, questioned, etc… it was criminal to talk in opposition to the influx…

    it reminds me of a calvin and hobbes cartoon
    where calvin asks dad if the family is a democracy, or a dictatorship… when dad said a dictatorship. calvin said. “then the only way to affect change is violent overthrow” (or something to that effect)

    who decided the rules of multi culti?
    Soviet UN article 21?

    why weren the residents asked if they wanted their populations diluted as a experiment to end nationalism, to prevent national socialism… while they pressed for socialism?

    they were not asked as they were subjects…

    we may WANT to consider wht he did as not from history… but in truth, its VERY historical and has a whole lot of precident.. and you can see it in the commentary.

    one man said it was as enevitable as what happened to amy winehouse…

    and of course no one wants to talk abuto why stalin did it… (and why those tht copy him do it)

  5. expat Says:

    Wollo,

    I just heard on TV that they Norwegians may charge him with crimes against humanity, which carries a bit tougher sentence. I also read somewhere that they have flat screens in the cells even in prisons for the most violent. I wonder whether prisoners are fed lutefisk instead of baloney sandwiches.

  6. neo-neocon Says:

    Wolla Dalbo: I read somewhere (don’t have time to find the link) that Breivik’s Facebook page was unaltered. The differences represented the difference between the page as an outsider would see it and as a “friend” would see it.

  7. Artfldgr Says:

    May i ask what the Nazi’s wrote of the jews being put into gettos then uprising? did they make out the few who did it as nuts, or that they were evil? or did they look to their acts and change them?

    remember the Edelweisspiraten? Bartholomäus Schink?
    (how about The Leipzig Meuten)

    if the Germans won, what would be their history?

    for the point of devils advocate…

    what is different between Breivik, and David Gilbert, Samuel Brown, Judith Alice Clark, Kathy Boudin, and Marilyn Buck?

    do you know them and what they did?

    The Brink’s robbery of 1981 was an armed robbery committed on October 20, 1981, which was carried out by Black Liberation Army members; including Jeral Wayne Williams (aka Mutulu Shakur), Donald Weems (aka Kuwasi Balagoon), Samuel Smith, Nathaniel Burns (aka Sekou Odinga), Cecilio “Chui” Ferguson, Samuel Brown (aka Solomon Bouines); several former members of the Weather Underground, now belonging to the May 19th Communist Organization, including David Gilbert, Samuel Brown, Judith Alice Clark, Kathy Boudin, and Marilyn Buck; and an unknown number of accomplices.[1] They stole $1.6 million from a Brink’s armored car at the Nanuet Mall, in Nanuet, New York, killing two police officers, Edward O’Grady and Waverly Brown, and a Brink’s guard, Peter Paige.

    or how is he different than the feminist Rote Zora?

    Rote Zora (English: Red Zora, from the book Die Rote Zora und ihre Bande by Kurt Held) was a militant feminist group active in West Germany from 1974-95, known for a series of bombings. Rote Zora started in 1974, when they bombed the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany in Karlsruhe to protest against the abortion law.[1]

    In addition they bombed the Federal Doctor’s Guild (in 1977),[1] numerous sex shops, the cars of landlords, the Siemens company, and the company Nixdorf Computer AG[2]. While carrying out hundreds of attacks, the group always took care to not physically harm people.[citation needed]

    Rote Zora was a split from the organization Revolutionary Cells,[3] though some members continued to associate with both[4]. The group’s last action was in 1995. In 2000, a documentary about the group (titled Die Rote Zora) was made by Oliver Tolmein.

    In April 2007, former Rote Zora member Adrienne Gerhäuser stood trial for the attempted bombings of the Berlin Genetic Technical Institute in 1986, and a clothing factory in Bavaria in 1987,[5] receiving a suspended two-year sentence, the maximum she was eligible for.

    and what about this?
    depends on who wins and which side, no?

    On September 6th, 1810, British Regulars rounded up 23 people whom they suspected to be conspirators in a plot to destroy the British Governor’s Office in downtown New York City and had them tried and executed by firing squad the same day. There was no proof that any of the people were even involved, and even if there was a plot to begin with. This embrazened public opinion about the British occupation of the Colonies, and eventually led to revolution, after King George III ordered a blockade around New England Ports. They are immortalized on the United States Flag, which includes 23 Stars, partially for the 23 States, but also for the 23 that died on September 6th, 1810.

  8. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    On another blog, there was quite a lot of information about Breivik’s teen years and his involvement in a gang and being a hip hop tagger.
    You can read it here:
    http://tinyurl.com/42fvdox

    This indicates to me that Breivik had a streak of the maverick who liked to toy with violence. As time went on, he began to realize that even though his gang associations had kept him relatively unharmed by the Muslim gang bangers, it wasn’t true for other native Norwegians. He viewed the lack of action to protect native citizens and lack of punishment for the Muslim gang bangers as an assault on fairness to native Norwegians. Reading about similar events occurring in other European countries solidified his angst about the situation. He felt that those, like himself, who were against the multicultural thrust of Europe had no voice and were, in fact, ignored or silenced by the powers of the state. His act of violence was an attempt to get in the faces of the progressive (Marxist, socialist, or??) government and get them to listen.

    It was, however, wrong. Violence against innocent people is always and everywhere wrong, no matter the cause. And it set his cause back. It has created further outcries against, and calls to silence, people who believe as he does. The voices of Spencer, Geller, Mill, and the blog, Gates of Vienna are all less powerful now because this violence.

  9. Artfldgr Says:

    he has been added to the massacre list
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_events_named_massacres

    the left works VERY fast as they are organized to make a image in the publics mind they can use… irregardless of any validity… (though they say nothing in that post!)

    its interesting to see what pile of others he is in..

    Fort Hood Massacre…
    Gunman Malik Nadal Hasan, a Major in the U.S. Army, allegedly killed 12 soldiers and one civilian, and wounded at least 30 on the base at Ft. Hood.

    Virginia Tech Massacre
    Gunman Seung-Hui Cho, killed 32 people and wounded many others

    Capitol Hill massacre
    28-year-old Kyle Aaron Huff entered a rave afterparty in the southeast part of Seattle’s Capitol Hill neighborhood and opened fire, killing six and wounding two

    Passover massacre
    Killing of 30 guests at the Park Hotel in Netanya, Israel, sitting down to the traditional Passover Seder meal. Another 143 were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility

    Luxor massacre
    Massacre carried out by Egyptian Islamist militants, in which 64 people (including 59 visiting tourists) were killed using automatic weapons and machetes.

    Ghulja Massacre
    After two days of protests during which the protesters had marched shouting “God is great” and “independence for Xinjiang” the demonstrations were crushed by the People’s Liberation Army. Official reports put the death toll at 9 while dissident reports estimated the number killed at more than 100.

    Port Arthur massacre
    The Port Arthur massacre of 28 April 1996 was a killing spree which claimed the lives of 35 people and wounded 21 others mainly at the historic tourist site Port Arthur in south-eastern Tasmania, Australia.

    Beit Lid massacre
    First suicide attack by Palestinian Islamic Jihad, killing 22 and wounding 69. Carried out by two bombers; the second waited until emergency crews arrived to assist the wounded and dying before detonating his bomb

    Algerian Village Massacres of the 1990s
    During the 1990s, many large-scale massacres of villagers in Algeria were perpetrated by groups attacking villages at night and cutting the throats of the inhabitants. The Armed Islamic Group (GIA) has avowed its responsibility for many of them

    Cave of the Patriarchs massacre
    Baruch Goldstein opens fire with an assault rifle killing 29 Muslims and wounding 150 at prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque before being subdued and beaten to death

    Sivas massacre
    33 Alevi intellectuals were killed when a mob of radical Islamists set fire to the hotel where the group had assembled

    if one were to look at that list, and remove the nutters (like the man who killed the 16 amish children) what do you have left?

    a list of back and forth actions, in which islam and communist games dominate..

    that is, remove the ones who are nuts
    then remove the ones who claim to be responding to islam (Breivik, Baruch Goldstein)…

    then what is left for modern times (after wwii)?
    islamic murders, and communist insurgency murders, or opposition to them (anti communist)…

    expecially after the years that golytsin points out that Ceausescu claims to have invented terrorism as a weapon using islam… (and a few others claim the same)

    they do not want one to look at the larger more confused picture of back and forth and varous real and false organizations…

    in that melieu, he is one of many people who have chosen sides and acted out (for good, for evil, for whatever including nuttiness)…

  10. Sergey Says:

    Delusion grandeur is the most unmistakable symptom of paranoid schizophrenia. And it is manifest in the case of Breivik in all his postures, stylistic of his messages, imagenery and wording of his wrighting. But not all cases of paranoid schizophrenia lead to diminishing culpability. Voices in one’s head commanding doing something is extreme case. Breivik is more like Raskolnikov in “Crime and Punishment”, a self-proclaimed ideologist of violence to improve the world.

  11. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Neo—Despite invitations and urgings to sign up for Facebook from relatives, friends, and complete strangers, I’m deliberately not on Facebook or Twitter or any other “social media” sites, so I don’t know how Facebook works.

    I am a great believer in privacy—you may note that, although I have slipped up a time or two and have been tempted to “let it all hang out,” I have tried to leave as few clues as reasonably possible as to my identity when I post on a public website–and in this age of increasing government scrutiny and intrusion into our lives, and hackers, and con men of all stripes, circling like hungry sharks, faced with a whole bunch on chum in the water–living more of my life in public than I absolutely have too is, in my opinion, way too much exposure, and not something that I want to do.

    Moreover it is vulgar, and I am not in favor of conducting my life in what is, in effect, a glass house, and proudly telling people every time I belch or have a pimple, or have some “crisis” or other; I ain’t gong to be a participant in “Jersey Shore.”

    A science fiction story once had as its theme the idea that, in the future, real freedom would be being untraceable and off the grid and off the government’s radar, and I think that may well be the case.

    I note that such “social media’ sites have given people–the younger crowd especially–a new venue in which to be stupid and do stupid things and that, predictably, some employers are now apparently scanning the Internet posts of potential employees to see what kind of stupid, vulgar, inflammatory, and illegal things they might have done and carelessly posted on the Web for their “friends” or even for all the world to see. Like tattoos, scarification, or piercings that might have been “fun” and “cool” at 18 or even 22, nude pictures of yourself, pictures of you at a wild party, you working a bong, or some really stupid comments might not be so cool when you are, say, 25, or 35, or 40 and getting married, trying to get a loan, or trying to get hired for a new job.

  12. Curtis Says:

    The reasonable approach to defamation:

    First, agree that it is true that such and such isn’t responsible for the actual occurrence:

    “Marc Sageman, a former C.I.A. officer and a consultant on terrorism, said it would be unfair to attribute Mr. Breivik’s violence to the writers who helped shape his world view.”

    Then negate that by asserting that such and such is responsible for making the person who and what he is:

    “But at the same time, he said the counterjihad writers do argue that the fundamentalist Salafi branch of Islam “is the infrastructure from which Al Qaeda emerged. Well, they and their writings are the infrastructure from which Breivik emerged.”

    And do it through another voice, a supposed expert, who uses the logic that such and such can’t claim Islamic writings affect jihadist murderers and not claim their own writings affect counter-jihadist murderers.

    In other words, equate Islamic jihad with the exposure of it.

  13. Sergey Says:

    As for punishment, anything less death penalty would be a travesty. He must be hanged in public. Such measures are necessary to redress people’s anger. Vengeance is the best part of justice.

  14. Ymarsakar Says:

    The element people most need to win a war is the ability to turn negative situations into positive and beneficial sources of power.

  15. Ymarsakar Says:

    Their own logic is twisted. If they believe so, do they also believe Islamic violence comes solely from the Koran because the Koran is sited as the entire justification for jihad?

    The point is, they are making a pot pie out of some raw ingredients while people on the right are trying to wait in defense and “react” to situations.

    Wars aren’t won on the defensive and this proves again that the Left are still better at taking the propaganda offensive than their enemies are.

    In an attrition war, propaganda matters a lot more early on than later on. Because when people get attrited enough, say more than 50%, propaganda is really becoming useless at that point.

  16. Ymarsakar Says:

    Anders didn’t kill 50% of all Leftists, however. That’s why propaganda trumps whatever he might have been able to accomplish. And propaganda, yet to this day, still belongs mostly to the Left because they have had centuries of preparation time. Preparation time is a major component of success for the unskilled or untalented.

  17. rickl Says:

    Those of us in the conservative or counter-jihad movements should not back down an inch, or temper our rhetoric in any way. The Left and Islam ARE our enemies, and we should shout it from the rooftops.

    Isn’t it interesting that whenever there’s a Muslim atrocity, there’s much hand-wringing by the media and the authorities that the act of an obviously disturbed individual shouldn’t reflect badly on Islam or the Koran, and shouldn’t lead to “backlash”? Yet the Left has no hesitation in describing ABB’s motivation as “fundamentalist Christian” and “right-wing” and motivated by the blogs he read. Funny that they don’t seem to be concerned about “backlash” against conservatives.

    I’m still not entirely convinced that this wasn’t a “false flag” operation of some kind. The whole thing is mighty convenient for the Leftist narrative about dangerous white Tea Partiers.

    If English wasn’t his first language, why did he write his manifesto in English?

  18. Wandriaan Says:

    The one thing I know is that when the EU-Left will now smother the few remaining conservative outlets, things will only get worse. To prevent these horrible things to happen one thing would be easy to realise and helpful: to allow selfcontrolled conservative outlets everywhere. At present the EU is soft-totalitarian in a leftist way. A huge part of the population lives in ‘inner emigration’. This clearly is unhealthy and dangerous.
    Of course I don’t excuse this horrific massmurder, but a child can see that when you will not allow people to speak their mind frankly, in the end they will resort to other ways.
    After the massmurder the Norway government said they would work to even more ‘democracy and openness’. I hope this does not mean: less free speech, more outlawing of ‘unwanted opinions’, and more ostracising of traditional minded people. Because this is what really happened the last decades under the pretext of ‘openess’ in Europe. Conservative talkradio has served as a valve in the US in this way and nobody knows how many horrors this has prevented. Perhaps a lot.

  19. Don Carlos Says:

    Artfldgr’s analysis,particularly, “Breivik did what he did because the side that he opposed made sure there was no way to oppose them, their ideas, or what they will do to others sans their permission” is the best I’ve seen.

    All the chatter about ABB’s mental health or lack thereof, the tagging with psychiatric diagnoses and labels, is largely done by folks who are less than qualified. There exists no recorded mental status exam on ABB, nor any other clinical data.

    The bigger question is “When is violence against the State justified?” And by whom? That question was satisfactorily answered by Thos. Jefferson and confrers, and we need not look further.

    I not not find the endless invocation that “the innocent” were killed particularly clarifying. Does that mean it’s more OK to target the government figures, as ABB did? Or not?

    Today 150000 mourners gathered in Oslo with flowers. We see this public grieving response all the dam time now, with “grief counselors” paid by the taxpayer telling us “It’s OK to grieve.” These are the same folks who hasten to remind us that “death is a part of life” and other useful tidbits.

    Meanwhile, Norwegian cops in patrol cars have access to a weapon stored in a locked box only upon call-in authorization. A professor at the Norwegian Police Academy is quoted to say (despite rising violent crime) that he really prefers to live in a society where the cops are unarmed.

    This is bizarre pacifism, all of it, and the feminization of the West is a large part thereof. It is worse than pacifism. It is total spinelessness.

  20. Curtis Says:

    And so, what then exactly are you saying, Don C.?

    Shall Spencer or Gellar or you and I approve of counter-jihad as carried out by Breivik? No.

    Why not? Why shouldn’t we? We are beginning to understand that a jihad has been declared against us. We have a right to protect our lives and our liberty.

    The reason is that our polity has not declared a general counter-jihad (war). Islam has and brings that jihad in every area, especially in propaganda and accusation. So we will fight there. And we will fight jihad as we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan. We retain our identity as a country where decisions are made by rational actors elected by us. And we will refrain from killing until the last resort and only then when our nation, through the political process, declares war. Is any rational mind proposing the time for a general war against Islam is ripe?

    John Brown is a telling example, here, not so much because of him, but because that issue had to be decided by war, which may be the case here, but until such time, we will not let loose the dogs of war until as a nation we have exhausted all other possibilities. That is what makes America great. We are a great people united by a desire for peace, but not peace at any price. When finally, we must rise and declare general war, the enemy will find implacable warriors not diminished by feminization.

  21. rickl Says:

    I think John Brown is a pretty good parallel here. He had a few screws loose himself, and thought his action at Harper’s Ferry would lead to a general slave uprising.

    That didn’t happen, but he turned out to be prophetic and a harbinger of things to come.

    At some point, the indigenous European population will decide that they have had enough of the Muslims–and probably also their leaders who have sold them out to the Muslims. Judging by historical precedent, it will not be pretty when that day comes.

  22. Sgt. Mom Says:

    I agree with Rickl and Curtis – that that John Brown is a pretty adept historic paralell — commiting an awful deed (he wanted to kick off a slave revolt, yet one of the first people killed in the Harper’s Ferry raid was a free black man.) The whole thing was a triumph of intent, over actual actual achievement. That’s usually a lefty sort of thing – but within a couple of years, Union armies went off to war, singing “John Brown’s body lies mouldering in the grave, but his soul goes marching on.”
    But ABB is a brutal and murderous fruitcake. So was John Brown.

  23. Don Carlos Says:

    Curtis:
    I wish I could share your optimism: ‘When finally, we must rise and declare general war, the enemy will find implacable warriors not diminished by feminization.’ I fear evidence to the contrary is all around us.

    rickl:
    ‘At some point, the indigenous European population will decide that they have had enough of the Muslims–and probably also their leaders who have sold them out to the Muslims. Judging by historical precedent, it will not be pretty when that day comes.’ This leads me back to Artfldgr’s earlier thinking, vide supra. Isn’t your not-pretty precisely what ABB did to the ruling Labor Party?

  24. Curtis Says:

    Some scary fundamentalist Christians from Australia to see at the site below.

    I wonder if Islam has any counterpart to these kids. I wonder if Islam teaches its children any songs that say “Heal my heart and make me clean; Open up my eyes to the things unseen; Show me how to love like you have loved me.”

    Would that Breivik had ever encountered such a group. It might have given him a place to belong.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXCoHxX1OC8&feature=related

  25. rickl Says:

    Don Carlos Says:
    July 26th, 2011 at 10:33 pm

    Isn’t your not-pretty precisely what ABB did to the ruling Labor Party?

    Yep. It was the first shot across the bow.

  26. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    There are some in the blogosphere who are suspicious of this sudden act of terroism by a Norwegian “Potato.”

    How about this:
    “Can you now see why I view all of this Norway stuff with extreme suspicion? I already personally know that the U.N. pays people (with OUR tax dollars, by the way) to act as agents provocateurs against the United States, its Constitution and its citizens. The U.N. wants to disarm Americans via the Small Arms Treaty and has the full cooperation of the Obama/Clinton machine. Operation Fast and Furious was designed and executed to achieve that goal. The U.N. is also deeply anti-Israel and pro-muslim, specifically the Muslim Brotherhood. The Norway mass murder serves practically every U.N. agenda simultaneously. It really is spooky to see how all of this stuff is connected, and you don’t need to dig down very far at all to find these connections.”
    If you are of a suspicious nature, you can read it all here:
    http://tinyurl.com/6zoa4cw

  27. LB100 Says:

    Neo,

    I’m surprised that the illustrious Bill Ayers didn’t get an honorable mention for partcipating in the Weathermen plot to bomb a dance at Ft. Dix, with the hope of killing several enlisted men. As Andy McCarthy notes, Ayers, too, had a grand plan: “Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, Kill your parents.” http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/167989/bill-ayers-unrepentant-lying-terrorist-andrew-c-mccarthy

  28. br549 Says:

    I remember reading a slice of an interview with John Lennon’s son Julian, himself a pop star. In it, I felt that perhaps Julian felt similar to his father’s murderer as far as the phony part. He said his father always spoke, wrote, and sang of love – but that he never saw any of it.

  29. SteveH Says:

    “”we will not let loose the dogs of war until as a nation we have exhausted all other possibilities. That is what makes America great. We are a great people united by a desire for peace,”"
    Curtis

    I think about Pearl Harbor and what was done in the ensuing four short years. And what i’m coming to think is that we really don’t know or choose to purposely forget the ruthlessness of whence we came. The politician with flowery words didn’t create America. The grunt farmer who would hang a man for stealing his horses did.

    And now we pay for air conditioners and book clubs for murderers in Guantanomo Bay.

    Our ancestors that made the free world possible couldn’t relate to us.

  30. njartist49 Says:

    Gates of Vienna had an interesting article: seems Breiveck enjoyed “Dexter”;

    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/07/dexter-factor.html#more

  31. Dan Says:

    Don’t forget “Helter Skelter” by the Beatles. Charles Manson claimed it inspired the Tate/LaBianca murders, which were supposed to trigger an apocalyptic race war in the US. I don’t recall the NYT taking John and Paul to task for writing the song.

  32. Don Carlos Says:

    Norway gov’t reponse: Doublespeak.

    http://news.yahoo.com/norway-pm-attacks-response-more-democracy-121223136.html

  33. njartist49 Says:

    @J.J. formerly Jimmy J.,
    Very interesting; esp after Fast and Furious.
    If true, TPTB are ramping it up.

  34. Curtis Says:

    Breivik’s manifesto; Protocols of the Elders of Zion; Obama’s birth certificate, long form; the budget; Obamacare; voter registrations; Journalist; (my favorite: ground zero mosque): does the first item belong in this list?

    Two questions:

    1. Where there be a full investigation;

    2. Will there be the will to force a full investigation?

  35. JHB Says:

    Some of the anti-Islam bloggers did in fact directly inspire of the actions of Breivik. Anti-Islam bloggers find this unpleasant, and try to doublethink it away. Breiviks wasn’t truly anti-Islam, or wasn’t anti-Islam in the right way, or was crazy, yadda yadda yadda.

    The contradiction is this. If Islam really is inherently and imperialistically evil, then we really do have a duty to eradicate it, abroad and especially at home. But most anti-Islam bloggers really don’t believe this; while we all know Islam has many villains, the anti-Islam crowd is peaceful, non-violent, non-revolutionary, and really is willing to tolerate others of different beliefs as long as we all follow the same civilized rules.

    This means apocalyptic, conspiratorial rhetoric against Islam is irresponsible, because the hardline anti-Islam stance is just a pose for the internetz, and someone might take it seriously.

  36. Artfldgr Says:

    The Norway mass murder serves practically every U.N. agenda simultaneously. It really is spooky to see how all of this stuff is connected, and you don’t need to dig down very far at all to find these connections

    no… you dont… in fact, since its collective action, you can see the relationships, we just deny they mean anything….

    notice how you say what he did fits perfect…

    well, after reading some more… i noticed some stuff.

    can anyone here define a “cut out”?

    In espionage parlance, a cutout is a mutually trusted intermediary, method or channel of communication, facilitating the exchange of information between agents.

    By definition, a “cutout” does not know the source or destination the information being transmitted, or the identities of any persons involved in the espionage process. Thus, a captured cutout cannot be used to identify members of an espionage cell.

    read carefully his own words where and how he did what he did and where he referenced getting stuff and where he ACTUALLY went…

    also note that there is an inconvenient mexican group calle templars too.

    The Templar Knights, a new drug cartel that was created after it splintered from the La Familia cartel last March, has issued a code-of-conduct booklet for members saying it is fighting a war against tyranny and injustice.

    things get weird, and as always, ambiguity protects or obfuscates any real conclusion… (at least direct logic… preponderance over years is another story – which is why the game of hiding and denying… you cant add up things if you dont count them… )

    Breivik, was actually a member of Norway’s Grand Lodge
    [IF you like masons as the moriarties instead of jews or the illuminati.... sigh]

    his works claim he went to a meeting of theirs in 2002 where they discussed re-awakening the Knights Templar… (and defending Rome)

    I met with them for the first time in London… the founding session in London, 2002. I was the youngest one there, 23 years old at the time. One of the key founders instructed the rest of the group about several topics related to the goal of the organisation. I believe I scribbled down more than 50 full pages of notes regarding all possible related topics. Much of these notes are forwarded in the book 2083. It was basically a detailed long term plan on how to seize power in Western Europe.

    of course this kind of thing matches the same kind of planning revealed by a senatorial aid in Grinding America down, but that was from communists, not masons… (my memory is seldom matched – and the internet makes it have incredible recall detail… hee hee)

    but the key comes here:
    Breivik explains that he had come into contact with Serbian “cultural conservatives”…

    As soon as that was mentioned, there came the cut outs and the “innocents clubs” fronts model… pose as a new organization, get some people to come, equip them, and so on… with these cut out intermediaries setting the willing up to do the thing and take the fall.

    one thing i must point out is that Breivik sought out something… believed what he found… and was NOT RESOURCEFUL… that is, and i cant give any details here, he never figured out alternative means rather than connecting, believing then acting…

    there is a major difference between capability and ability and action… those with the knowlege and will, tend not to act… those without it and willing to act, tend to want ‘consumables’, and they get advice and are provided… the provisions and such are what affods the providers control… (see cuba, chavez, n korea, etc etc etc)

    remember that “vast right wing conspiracy” is the bête noire of the left just as moriarty is to sherlock holmes…

    I WILL point out that the people playing dictatorial games DO NOT want the general public to read Breiviks work.

    ALSO… if one needs a reason, besides the obvious repetitive greif and games…

    the reason may be this simple:
    How do you get a manual of arts into the hands of many many people and get them to read it, and which raises the statistical probability of such information being used over time?

    while the paper is saying he is nuts… a WHOLE lot in what he writes is about as nutty as the military colleges and ideas they publish in white papers you can sometimes read (and a lot of the early socialist thinking stuff too).

    the coming insurrection was not popular here in the US… nor are things like the handbooks made for ghanna, and south africa, and so on…

    his manifesto is MOSTLY historical justification…
    the priori of zion was similar and is the longest running active measure…

    and then technique, explanations and such… remove the actions he took and clean it up, and its a manual for insurrection and other things.

    August and early September 2010, Breivik spent six days in the Czech Republic. it was in prague that he purcahsed the badges for the uniforms he used.

    Breivik admits that he visited Belarus and studied the regime of President Alexander Lukashenko in his 1500 page work..
    I was in Belarus and I can personally confirm this. I personally spoke with dozens of people who have no choice but to consume irradiated goods. Sixty percent of the radiation fell on the territory of Belarus and the dictatorship continues to intentionally feed its population with irradiated products.

    he lists nationalist organizations in europe:
    Syarhey Haidukevich’s Liberal Democratic Party of Belarus

    Founded in 1989, Vladimir Zhirinovsky’s Liberal Democratic Party of Russia was one of the first potemkin parties founded during the era of glasnost and perestroika in the Soviet Union. There is evidence that Zhirinovsky is a KGB/FSB agent who was tasked with creating a false opposition party to promote the illusion of democracy in the Soviet system.

    http://www.muskingum.edu/
    specifically
    intellit.muskingum.edu/
    more specifically

    Soviet Active Measures in The
    ‘Post-Cold War’ Era 1988-1991

    Internal Front Groups:
    Vladimir Zhirinovsky and
    The “Centrist Bloc”
    intellit.muskingum.edu/russia_folder/pcw_era/sect_07.htm

    but hey! what good is memory if you never knew it in the first place or you forget it? :)

    [reading the paper would point out so many things that are here in the US now... but we dont know how to identify them, or see them... and if you say anything, well you must be a nutter, and or tin hatter, or conspiracy theorist, etc... none of which address the actuality of anything]

    The chairman of the Liberal Democratic Party was Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who, in contrast to the leaders of the other parties, was a political unknown. A journalist familiar with his background termed Zhirinovsky’s appearance on the political scene “an April Fools’ joke.” He wrote in the July 17, 1990 issue of Komsomolets Uzbekistana:

    It seems that somebody was desperate to show – following the relevant decisions of the CPSU CC and the USSR Supreme Soviet – how fast political pluralism has developed in the Soviet Union. At the same time, they do not want to advertize the real competitors of the CPSU. Therefore, the bubble of the Liberal Democratic Party was inflated.

    hmmmm came out of nowhere… etc..
    study history and you will note that people dont come out of nowhere and win without something being up… (see Obadiah – and kathy boudins parents history… hmmmm)

    anyway.. Liberal democratic party was a communist front… (and here?)

    a polish company sold him the explosive material fertilizer… “He names the 17th century Polish king Jan III Sobieski, who defeated the Ottoman Turks at the gates of Vienna, as one of his heroes Polish media have reported.”

    he never visited poland… but he did visit belarus, which borders it..

    Norway shooter praises Putin, Nashi
    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/bric-yard/norway-shooter-praises-putin-nashi

    The Pope or Vladimir Putin. Putin seems like a fair and resolute leader worthy of respect. I’m unsure at this point whether he has the potential to be our best friend or our worst enemy though. He’s very hard to psychoanalyze. I wouldn’t want to be his enemy, that’s for sure. Obviously, he has to openly condemn us at this point which is understandable.

    the best parallels i can draw is OSWALD…

    in which there is connections, ambiguity, and so on… and no way to ever resolve any of it!!!!!!!!!!!

    except that they never isolated and kept kacynsky quiet… and oswald never got the chance to be a big mouth. perhaps we will find that he hung himself while in isolation?

    it would have been very easy for the services to make a cut out and feed his fantasy that he really connected with something, guide his false reality, and so exploit what comes of it…

    dont think so? (then read about how they bombed our embassy and suddenly putin wants back into the presidents seat so he can be the one to go toe to toe with obama… and on and on as that part now is suddenly falling apart. and even china is now threatening with a whole bunch of new equipment out, super fast missles, shikval torpedoes, emp device tested on carnival cruise ship, etc)

    he is the other side of the muslim cut out.
    the opposite reflection..
    just as the poor muslims convinced and supplied (care to check out the kind of explosives found mostly? it isnt C4, its Semtex), by russia..

    Semtex is a general-purpose plastic explosive containing RDX and PETN. It is used in commercial blasting, demolition, and in certain military applications. Semtex became notoriously popular with terrorists because it was, until recently, extremely difficult to detect, as in the case of Pan Am Flight 103.

    [i wont say the differences with C4 and others]

    Semtex was invented in the late 1950s by Stanislav Brebera, a chemist at VCHZ Synthesia, Czechoslovakia. The explosive is named after Semtín, a suburb of Pardubice in the Czech Republic where the mixture was first manufactured starting in 1964.

    its the “Blowfeld fighting fish strategy”

    they are trying to start something that then can blow up…

    we look to germany… but we seldom look to how a stalin would embolden a hitler to start the game…

    who took all the blame despite a partnership to kick things off?

    same with palestine and the PLO… read the stuff from the archive.

    so… if one is to NOT remove data for arbitrary reasons, the whole of it is more complex than what anyone really is saying…

    one cant enter belarus, and just hang out and not be noticed… some states do not operate the same as others.

    the whole move to fertilizer and such came after semtex became associated with terrorism all round the world… and since the only maker was the one place…

    however, interesting trivia… today commercial semtex has a detection taggant… but this was in 1991 and beyond…

    but 700 tons of Semtex were exported to Libya between 1975 and 1981 by Omnipol. and there is nothing stopping them from running off a batch without it for special reasons…

    [what does that say about tsa?]

    anyway.
    in case you havent noticed. the story is dying real fast… and THAT is a sign in itself that someone doesnt want people to look too closely… why? well both ‘sides’ would concure… the side that helped if they helped would want it to die… and the side that noticed that his manifesto is also a methods textbook, may want it to die too.

  37. Artfldgr Says:

    sorry for the malformation..
    and forgot to add…
    the reference to post cold war complete reference is

    Soviet Active Measures in the
    “Post-Cold War” Era 1988-1991

    A Report Prepared at the Request of the
    United States House of Representatives
    Committee on Appropriations
    by the United States Information Agency
    June 1992
    intellit.muskingum.edu/russia_folder/pcw_era/index.htm#Contents

    they have a stupendous reading list..
    even for the birthers… :)

    Agursky, Mikhail. “Soviet Disinformation and Forgeries.” International Journal of World Peace 6, no. 1 (Jan.-Mar. 1989)

    The Soviet Cultural Offensive. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1960. Barghoorn, Frederick C.

    “America was the top target for most KGB operations, but most were dirty tricks that were often as crude as they were farcical…. Among the more successful was an attempt to throw suspicion on the CIA for involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy, the allegation that Martin Luther King was in the pay of President Johnson and the assiduous cultivation of rumours that J. Edgar Hoover … was a closet homosexual and cross-dresser. But there were also numerous attempts to smear American politicians, operations to stir up racial hatred by disseminating forged pamphlets denouncing black people as ‘race monkeys’ and attempts to recruit Zbigniew Brzezinski … as a Soviet agent.”
    “US Was Main Target of Dirty Tricks.” Times (London), 13 Sep. 1999 Michael Binyon

    The Deception Game: Czechoslovak Intelligence in Soviet Political Warfare. Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Research Corp., 1972. New York: Ballantine, 1981. Bittman, Ladislav.

    .The New Image-Makers: Soviet Propaganda and Disinformation Today. Washington, DC: Permagon-Brassey’s, 1988 Bittman, Ladislav.

    Bittman, Ladislav, ed. “The Messages from Moscow 1989.” Propaganda- Disinformation-Persuasion 3, no. 1 (Summer 1990). [Published by Boston University, College of Communication, Program for the Study of Disinformation Papers.]

    if you ever want to read and know alot, read ladislav.. lots of books, information, and such… LOTS

    Operation INFEKTION: Soviet Bloc Intelligence and Its AIDS Disinformation Campaign / Studies in Intelligence 53, no. 4 (Dec. 2009)

    Having effectively harnessed the dynamics of rumors and conspiracy theories, Soviet bloc intelligence had created a monster that has outlived its creators. Boghardt, Thomas.

    . “The Peace Movement and the Soviet Union.” Commentary 73, no. 5 (1982) Bukovsky

    Moscow’s Words, Western Voices. Washington, DC: Accuracy in Media, 1995.
    Campbell “traces how four prominent journalists — I.F. Stone, Alexander Cockburn, Walter Duranty, and Wilfred Burchett — repeated Soviet propaganda themes consistently during their careers.” The author “systematically analyzes their major writings and shows how political orientation skewed the reliability of what was passed off to readers as ‘objective reporting.’”

    “Soviet Use of Active Measures.” Current Policy 761 William casey

    “The Power of Disinformation: The Lie that Linked CIA to the Kennedy Assassination.” Studies in Intelligence 11 Holland, Max.

    Double Lives: Spies and Writers in the Secret Soviet War of Ideas Against the West. New York: Free Press, 1993. Double Lives: Stalin, Willi Münzenberg and the Seduction of the Intellectuals. London: HarperCollins, 1994. Rev. ed. New York: Enigma Books, 2004. stephen koch

    this is the story of the “Soviet secret apparatus that successfully manipulated” Hemingway, Hellman, Dos Passos, Brecht, and others “to work on a propaganda campaign on behalf of the Comintern. One man masterminded the effort — the German communist publisher Willi Munzenberg.” Aldrich, I&NS 11.3, says that Koch “demonstrates effectively the direct Soviet manipulation of … many important figures in the 1930s.”

    The Red Millionaire: A Political Biography of Willi Münzenberg, Moscow’s Secret Propaganda Tsar in the West (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2004). Sean McMeekin

    The Bureaucracy of Truth: How Communist Governments Manage the News. London: Burnett, 1981. Lendvai

    there is a whole lot more..
    which is why if you know the history, you cant just write off things… if you dont, its easy to.

    or to put it the way james jesus angleton did
    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol53no4/201ccunning-passages-contrived-corridors201d.html

    the lore about Angleton is more familiar than his ideas, accomplishments, and true shortcomings because much of the publicly available information about him is highly partisan, generated by a range of intelligence veterans, scholars, journalists, and fiction and film writers who have maligned or embellished his career to the point that much of what is supposedly known of him is a mix of fact and fiction.

    Given the Soviets’ record of success at penetration and deception operations going back to the 1920s, and with no current evidence to the contrary, Angleton was justified in presuming CIA also was victimized. However, there was no other source, human or technical, that he could use to guide him on the molehunt — only his favored source, KGB defector Anatoli Golitsyn, and their symbiotic relationship soon became professionally unbalanced as the manipulative and self-promoting defector’s allegations of international treachery grew more fantastical.

    except that now a whole lot of what Golitsun claimed has come true, and has been coming true.

    http://www.amazon.com/Perestroika-Deception-Memoranda-Central-Intelligence/product-reviews/189979803X

    Mr. Golitsyn has a 94% accuracy record of predicting Soviet strategy from his last work, “New Lies for Old.”

    from discussing the invention of using planes as a weapon (before 9/11), to the coming financial crisis, the deception of russia which now is becoming more clear, and so forth..

    most people would rather not read any of this history stuff, as it makes reality scary…

  38. thomass Says:

    DirtyJobsGuy Says:

    “The whole Christian fundamentalist/terrorist thing is astounding to me. My guess is that unless you can create in your mind the a relativistic equivalent to Islamic Terrorism you are required to face facts.”

    Yeah, on one side you have a religion and group of authors that either don’t say use violence on one side to saying don’t use violence on the other side… Then with Islam you have a religion that says use it with a bunch of cheerleaders / authors saying ‘ditto’… to be fair; another Islamic groups that don’t say use it.

  39. Ymarsakar Says:

    JJ, I don’t consider the UN to be that competent. But if they were, I’d just nuke their headquarters. Controlled demolition as they say.

  40. thomass Says:

    Wolla Dalbo Says:

    “Now, who would do this and why?”

    yeah, it is interesting. I’m not sure it is true, but if so…

  41. Ymarsakar Says:

    “And we will refrain from killing until the last resort and only then when our nation, through the political process, declares war. ”

    So when your government, run by the Muslim Brotherhood in such connections as Hillary Clinton’s staffer, is somehow going to declare war in America’s security interests?

    I don’t think it’ll work out as easily as that.

    Americans may find that when it comes time to declare war on the enemy, that the enemy is them…

  42. thomass Says:

    Don Carlos Says:

    “The bigger question is “When is violence against the State justified?” And by whom? That question was satisfactorily answered by Thos. Jefferson and confrers, and we need not look further”

    I’m not sure those are the right questions. The question that interests me is what are legitimate targets. I’m thinking youth camp is not one. Bombs to kill civilian government workers, for symbolism, is not either.

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