November 8th, 2011

How do you fight back?

I’ve long had a special interest in the topic of false accusations—or rather, how to tell false from true, when the only evidence is the word of one party against another. Whether the charge be date rape, recovered memories of childhood molestation at the hands of a relative, sexual harassment, or just raunchy behavior of the type some of his accusers have claimed for Cain; if there’s no evidence, what’s a person to do?

It’s one thing to insist that Cain should “confront” the sexual harassment issue and the charges by giving a press conference. It’s another to see how it’s possible to effectively do so.

Cain gave an interview today (not a press conference) that constituted some sort of “confrontation” of the charges: categorical denial of harassing anyone, and calling Bialek a liar. But because of the number of accusers (and the amorphous quality of some of the charges), the situation resembles an almost endless game of whack-a-mole.

In such a situation, how can the accused give a full answer to the charges? What would a full answer be?

If the charges are true, admit it and pull out of the race. But if not, how does a person answer a fabrication, especially if there are no witnesses? What can a person say besides “it didn’t happen” or “it didn’t happen that way” or “she’s a liar?”

One thing to do is smear the women–dig into their pasts and find the flaws. That opens Cain (or anyone in his position) up to headlines like this one in Politico: “Herman Cain campaign launches attack on accuser Sharon Bialek.” It makes him seem like a thug, even though he’s just pointing out facts about her somewhat shady financial past.

This lady, Karen Kraushaar (one of the two woman at the NRA who got a settlement), seems to be a more credible witness than Bialek in terms of her past. But she has yet to describe exactly what Cain is supposed to have done that constituted her cause of action and for which she received a relatively small payment from the NRA. She also says she wants to have a joint conference with other accusers: why? To compound the effect of the accusations?

And therein lies an important point: a great many people say that now that there are many accusers the accusations become more credible. To me, each accusation is only as credible as (a) the person making it, and (b) the charges themselves. The numbers matter a little, but not that much, although there’s probably a tipping point where they would matter to me more.

Another circumstance that would enhance the charges’ believability would be if several woman had come forward independently—each without knowing about the other—alleging similar behavior on Cain’s part. That might be the case with the two accusers from the NRA, if they hadn’t spoken to each other or compared notes before each made her claim, but we don’t yet know.

That’s not the case with Bialek, who only has come forward recently after all the publicity rather than before it. And as far as her having supposedly told a friend or a boyfriend about Cain’s behavior at the time it happened, that’s slightly more convincing but not very. Unfortunately, people will lie to back each other up; I’ve seen it happen way too many times.

Let me repeat: I don’t know whether the women accusing Cain are telling the truth. They very well might be. It’s also possible that some are and some aren’t. But I do know that it is far too easy to lie about these matters if one has a mind to—for money, attention, anger, politics, or self-delusion—and that the more people who do so against a single prominent person, the more likely it is that their false charges will stick.

66 Responses to “How do you fight back?”

  1. Brad Says:

    Thank you, Neo.
    Your series of posts on this is very nuanced and sensible.

    As for Cain, for unrelated reasons I no longer hope he wins. But I think most of this crap is smoke without fire, and I will say that if he wins the Republican nomination -well, on the basis of sheer accomplishments alone he’s easily the most qualified candidate of the bunch and I do believe he can beat Obama.

    I don’t know what to say about this sort of thing. You and I disagree on, for instance whether there is more lying going on today due to custody and other issues involved in “no fault” divorce as compared to the past. What we DO agree on is that it is way too easy to lie about civil matters like these because :
    A. The press (both left and right sometimes for purely partisan reasons, often for purely salacious reasons) will run with it and splash it all over the place, often someone gets convicted in the press no matter whether there is a legal determination or not
    B. There are few if any real penalties for things such as false accusations in civil cases. Heck, half the time perjury in terms of rape cases isn’t prosecuted because many states make such statements misdemeanors at best, I can only assume that the penalties for smearing someone in a civil case would be next to none -and suing doesn’t help if they have no money
    C. The game of telephone. Even on the internet where information is rather easy to check, so many lies and distortions get out, sometimes because small naunces are not reported. As an example: Show of hands – how many here thought DSK was grabbing a last minute flight to flee back to France ?
    D. The incentives to make stuff up are tremendous. In politics it’s often to win an election via a smear. Or one can try for money -selling the story around. Or notoriety. Or many other reasons.

    Yes, this country -heck, the world is facing some tough times and it seems things in the immediate future (next five to twenty years roughly) are only going to get rougher. We need serious and competent leadership even more than we need corruptionless leadership. But because of the Clown Press and stories like these we usually end up with Bozo’s who are not serious, not competent, and very corrupt.

  2. rickl Says:

    Exactly, Brad. It’s things like this that keep normal people away from politics. Each and every one of us has some kind of skeleton in our closet. We’ve all said or done stupid things that we now regret. If you decide to run for political office, you have to assume that your most embarrassing secret will be exposed to public ridicule.

  3. Brad Says:

    Neo:
    Forgive me for linking a second video. I’ll try not to make a habit of it. I do think this is relevant for the whole Cain saga.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRte0S2a_dA

  4. Curtis Says:

    Karen Kraushaar has been got to. Her statements aren’t accusations of a lone woman but arguments to convince hearers of Cain’s guilt. She is a mouthpiece.

  5. Rose Says:

    I was struck by the silence and apparent solemnity in the room on the part of the press. They seemed almost respectful, though their questions reveal they are stuck in their own meme.

    Still – Cain is a commanding presence – and they felt it. What happens next – I’m almost afraid to ask.

  6. Brad Says:

    rickl:

    Yeah. I think back to this *warning a few maybe racy photos but no nudity*:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=krystal+ball+photos&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=558&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=VNi5TqimGIL78QOTmMigBw&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QsAQ

    Krystall Ball (love that name. Her father was a physicist with a sense of humor) was running for office in Virginia and her campaign was derailed, at least in part, due to these photos of her at a party like 7 to ten years ago with her former boyfriend.
    Now, she’s too liberal and feminist for my taste, but the fact is i don’t think these photos are of the kind to be ashamed of , and they certainly never should have helped decide a race. Heck, even if a nudie pic or two of her had gotten around or she had long ago starred in a porno film -what is it to you unless she is running as a religious candidate or y ou are a totally religious voter? I understand not voting for cheaters, sexual abusers and etc, but this is ridiculous. Some people didn’t vote for her because they said the mere existence of these photos proves she wasn’t serious enough to be a candidate. I’m like what? So you should know when you are totally young and stupid that you are going to get into politics 10 or 20 years down the line and conduct yourself accordingly? Is this good for the country?

  7. Parker Says:

    The Obama campaign (and its backers) have chummed the waters and the media sharks are circling as expected. Cain is making a big mistake if he thinks he can resolve this in the MSM ballpark. Cain needs to step back from the ‘she said, he said game’ and take it to them. Its time to put up or shut up and confront Bialek with a defamation of character lawsuit.

  8. holmes Says:

    Yes, many in the chattering class have criticized the team’s “handling” of the charges. How does one handle such charges, especially if they are false? It was easy for Clinton and Edwards- the media protected them and allowed surrogates to destroy the accusers (until Edwards was totally toast, then they jumped in.)

    I think Cain probably likes talking to pretty women, as do most men. I doubt he did anything really untoward. I think a couple of the women think they are telling the truth- really believe they were slighted in some way, but I doubt there is objective substance. EEO claims are the first weapon at hand for most employees, and they go to it often. Almost every employee complaint, especially if aided by a union, will include the words “hostile work environment.” It barely matters that there was no such thing, that is then the “nature of the claim.”

    This Bialek person seems like a gold digger. She went on tv, all decked out, cleavage shown. It all seemed out of sorts. Her eyes lit up when asked about possible magazine/book deals. She didn’t tell her fiance until 2 days prior to flying to meet Allred. As soon as Cain announced he was running, wouldn’t she have confided- “That man assaulted me!” She’s cashing in in our Snooki fame world.

  9. Curtis Says:

    Brad, this website makes the big ones small.

    http://tinyurl.com/

  10. Curtis Says:

    Why does one need to ask how? You do what comes naturally: defend yourself. Deny the charges and tell them to prove it. And keep going on. When the charges wear out, you’ll still be standing. Who knows but that this will be the event that caused Cain to get elected. Let the scumbags who don’t worry about truth become like the dirt under your feet.

  11. Curtis Says:

    Next accusation: Mr. Cain is a racist. He probably lives in a mostly white neighborhood; his friends are probably mostly white.

    Calling on all progressives out there with any doubts about Cain to “remember” events that “prove” he is a racist.

    C’mon. Let’s keep the big picture in mind and next time you see anyone from the lame stream media, spit on them.

    That’s how you fight back.

    (Hey, it works for the French.)

  12. Curtis Says:

    If you are an Orthodox Jew and live under Torah, you would never bring an accusation without another witness. It requires the testimony of at least two witnesses upon the same subject for any type of conviction.

    The problem is not “how do we defend,” but “why do we allow a single accusation.”

  13. Curtis Says:

    I’ll bet if Cassius Clay had to do it all over again, he wouldn’t call Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom.

    Mohammed Ali.

    America has forgiven him for taking that name. I wonder if Cassius, if he could, would take that back too.

    I’m sure he would.

    Piece-of-shite liberals. Everything they touch turns to shite.

  14. Curtis Says:

    The bad way:

    On September 13, 1988, I went on a date with “Sharon” Bialik. When we got back to “her” apartment, she stripped and I observed she was a she-male.

  15. Curtis Says:

    The worst defense:

    “Been a little time since I had a taste of that.”

    The Hulk defense:

    “Betty.”

    The chick defense:

    He’s gorgeous.

    The billable defense:

    Nobody saw anybody do anything. Here’s a bill for $500,000.

  16. T Says:

    What ever happened to the principle of “innocent until proven guilty,” or was this never more than wishful thinking?

    As for Gloria Allred, let’s see; Meg Whitman, conservative female gubernatorial candidate, Herman Cain, conservative, black presidential candidate. Methinks I see the beginning of a pattern here.

  17. ambisinistral Says:

    “How do you fight back? ”

    You go after the reporters. The Politico reporters who started this should be dragged through the mud.

  18. Beverly Says:

    All this is working beautifully to distract everyone’s attention from the Democrats’ endless stream of failures and foulups, be they never so outrageous or cataclysmic.

    They’re cackling in their beards, friends. Laughing up their sleeves.

    The best defense is a good OFFENSE. But Republicans, for some weird reason, seem to think they can win gutter-fights simply by parrying blows.

    I still like Rick Perry. So does Thomas Sowell. And for what it’s worth, so does Ace (of Spades).

  19. Liz Says:

    Check out this piece…

    http://robertholmgren.blogspot.com/2011/11/i-was-harassed-by-gloria-allred.html

    It is funny, but also shows how a simple situation can be easily turned around to be construed as harassment.

  20. Artfldgr Says:

    Guess those oppressive forefathers had certain customs for certain reasons which to them were so self evident they never thought the need to lay down reasons… (which allowed deconstruction to revision the reasons to some pedantic form of cartoon human behavior)

    if Cain followed those old things by never being in a room alone with a woman, and so on, then that is the defense.

    after the fact there is no defense for one would have to know the person they are with and that is just not possible (ergo Dante making betrayal the worst of it).

    this kind of dysfunction may be why women werent in business and politics in the past as much..

    but this in and of itself now that its in the fore is the reason why one party has such power and the other cant seem to get it together. as there is one puppet player pulling strings in which one side is shielded and so on, and the other side is only allowed to field players who are not a threat

    from supreme court to presidencies to smaller candidacies, and so on… who gets to choose who plays if one side has a nuclear bomb and no counter move (by virtue of dominating the literature and programming and education and public social events)

    unless their mates want to oppress who they love there isnt anything to do. (ergo that boy in the basement nintendo thing).

    however the interesting thing is that when another gets control, they will not have such a problem, in fact it would be much easier than when they had mates with skills and more as in the past, and there were lots who loved their country.

    the banks were also left out in the cold. if they thought they could fight back the heads i win tails you lose game in the public mind, they would not have caved to loans with nothing down, and no means…

    but those and other things are the product of a meritocracy (which is what patriarchy made), we said that was unfair as only ladies can see fair, and left merit for equality (and presumption of cheating and oppression where any unbalance presents itself that only they care to fight), and now have moved to a matriarchy.

    in patriarchy (as they call it) we had debates, rhetoric and full education, in matriarchy we have nanny state and no real debates and stunted education…

    Hegal with locks and cream cheese?

    by the way, if there was a valid play against it that could be mounted, men wouldn’t be bailing on the society…(and compared to societies past, they be bailing) you cant even point it out, as why would those who benefit put the breaks on it outside of merit, which is not what they follow (not many entitlements and faux justice in merit).

    for all the years reading, its meritocracy we miss… for that is the rational beast that each in their own way posits rational answers towards. and yet, the game changed when all players are not held to those rules, and the natural qualities of the players are ignored to foment such problems.

    to have merit you need people who WANT merit… and are willing to take the downside for it.

    equality doctrine means never having to take that downside, does it?

    only one sex was made to sacrifice to the last degree… the other was made for self preservation.

    which do you think could accept the merit and hand the last cookie over to the other? or walk off the field if the other asked?

    but i guess that was before we discovered we have no human natures, and feminists sold us on tabula rasa and disparate impact, and lots of stuff…

    time for some nintendo before bed…

  21. Perfected democrat Says:

    My take on it now is that there was an element of truth to the allegations, but only an element; it is becoming obvious that these accusations have been deliberately exaggerated and probably embellished, because of the obfuscation of details, and the sheer timing, especially so long after the “fact”. Maybe Herman was guilty of a little flirtation on several occasions, but the reality of his stature in business and role in the Federal Reserve, along with his family and marriage history, indicates a life of exonerating evidence against several minutes of suspicious accusations being used by a biased media. Perhaps Herman should take that lie detector test, though personally I don’t think he should bother. The Republican Party needs to start hammering away relentlessly at the real issues, starting with the liar and fraud occupying the White House, his birth certificate, his draft registration, his trip to Pakistan, his role in Acorn, his associations with everyone from Rezko to Ayers to Wright and the duplicitous Wall Street crowd who aid and abet this national betrayal, while having cashed it big time; not everyone in business and Wall Street have that record. Don’t underestimate how far the Democratic Party will go, from Chappaquidick to Roosevelt and the KKK, the Democrats need to have their noses rubbed in their own pile of crap….

  22. Perfected democrat Says:

    “Bill Clinton Says Presidents Should Be Able to Run for 3rd Term”

    Bill Clinton should have been impeached for verified perjury. The left-wing in collusion with the muslim world are doing everything possible to erode the integrity of the U.S. Constitution for their own agendas. Exactly the reason that Presidents should not be able to run for a third term is to prevent the inevitable abuse of power which ends up being a fiasco when arrogant left-wing demagogues are permitted too long a leash. It’s not called a leash for no reason…

  23. Perfected democrat Says:

    Roosevelt was in bed with the KKK all the way to the end; so was the entire Democratic Party with its insidious tolerance of Robert Byrd in congress. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, “progressives”…

  24. Perfected democrat Says:

    From G.P.: “To pay for the new Federal Christmas tree image improvement and marketing program, the Department of Agriculture imposed a 15-cent fee on all sales of fresh Christmas trees by sellers…”

    “Image and marketing program”? From the sublime to the ridiculous to the insidious abuse of power and position. The Democrats need to be exposed for the cancerous political crime syndicate which they have become. Similar to the Chinese Communists, they are now close to completely dominating the service agencies of the U.S. Government, which should be apolitical, not party partisan. We are closer to a totalitarian state than people realize. It needs to be relentlessly exposed and confronted.

  25. expat Says:

    Perfected democrat,
    I think there is merit in your take on things. Another consideration is that Cain had moved from the real world of running businesses to the beltway world of gaining access to power and selling spin, from a world of straight talk to a world of BS and PC. He may have been unaware of the changes or he may have tried to resist. How do you keep your bearings when a huge part of your job is taking the powerful out to dinner? This is a scene where the tone is set by people like Sally Quinn. It’s not surprising that the Cainsian tone would make people uncomfortable in the workplace.

  26. Mike Mc. Says:

    The “Appeal to Sympathy” is a fallacy in logic. In our culture “sympathy” goes to the self-proclaimed or alleged “victim”. Whoever gets to be the biggest “victim” wins the argument.

    We have to get back to the day when we “blame the victim” until and unless proven otherwise.

    It is possible to prove and demonstrate that you were a “victim”. Possible, not always easy.

    It is impossible to prove you did not do something that did not happen. There is no possible evidence for it.

    We have to get to the point where the accused gets the overwhelming “benefit of the doubt”. We have to get to the point where a false accusation is treated as the horrendous crime it is. It is a sin against everything we hold sacred and good.

    Until then, forget it. More cultural decay and decline. More injustice. More bad stuff brought to you by our Liberal Overlords.

  27. Porlay Says:

    Neo,

    Were you in a position to take someone down on the national political stage with a made up sexual harrasment claim with all that that is going to bring upon you, could you conceive of doing it?

  28. Artfldgr Says:

    Mike,
    your saying a return to the days prior to the neo matriarchy. unless the ladies decide thats better, its not going to go there, the number that can even express that in publicly and not get them on them is pretty much nil.

    nope… cant do it since mamma is at work and the kids get their instructions from the school that bella dodd made and more…

    i do not see any alternative to the mono culture of feminism (other than maybe joining islam?)

  29. david foster Says:

    Thought experiment: Suppose that the accusations had nothing to do with sex…suppose, rather, that these individuals had accused Cain of demanding bribes…$5000 in cash…in exchange for helping them with their careers.

    Is it likely that anyone, after all these years, would take such allegations seriously?

  30. Artfldgr Says:

    “JustiaGate,” in which 25 Supreme Court decisions that cited to the same case that defined “natural born” citizen were altered on Justia.com’s public database sometime mid-2008. The changes consisted of deleted references to the case name (Minor v. Happersett), “mangled” numerical citations, and other instances of missing text. Within days of the Portland Examiner’s publishing of attorney Leo Donofrio’s findings, Justia removed Wayback Internet Archives access, making it difficult to ascertain the plausibility of Justia owner Tim Stanley’s explanation to CNET.

    Although the decisions remain intact at other reliable sources, Justia is a popular free site, referred by many law schools for research.

  31. Kerry Says:

    What I wish Herman Cain said: “Good afternoon. Thank you for coming. The past ten days have been very difficult for my campaign, and after serious thought and prayer, I have decided that I must put an end to the accusations and recriminations. Effective immediately, I am suspending my run for the Republican nomination for President, and switching my party allegiance to the Democrats, where these slanders and calumnies are considered an asset. I intend to defeat Barry from within his own party. America can’t wait!!”

  32. Artfldgr Says:

    Both sexism and racism are similar mental processes
    medicalxpress.com/print239969586.html

    just so you can see the parallel of advocacy studies with bad methodologies that are used for political gain here as well as in the place that invented it.

    it REQUIRES that meritocratic methods be casted out and more equal methods that put bad ideas, cherry picked data, and all that kind of stuff on equal footing with empirical work which generally is unfunded and politically hounded out of existence or public perview… (along with a heck of a lot of the same revision games as in justia gate, which ALSO was originated in the same place)

    notice that this ‘source; is the NIH

    The debasing of medicine in the
    Soviet Union’
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1342304/pdf/bmjcred00265-0008b.pdf

    so they have had control of unions, of the schools from at least bella dodds era, as well as Dewey… as well as sociology advocacy to rewrite law (meade/kinsey/etc)… control of academia, control of the press..

    and now a huge endeavor on top of a health care bill that gives them control, the establishment of similar medical and social science PROOF..

    Which is how we know that herman cain is an oppressor… because ALL men are oppressors, just some are better at hiding it.

    if one pays attention one will note that every advocacy bs study comes with urgent missives to reform the educational or social melieu to correct the problem. (since when was that an allowable thing for government to dictate and refasion peoples lives using really crappy science? since we went soviet and the common man has no idea of it. today they are just finishing up loose ends… )

    but note how this works in creating the system that then is used in situations as cain, family law, education, and medicine.

    will they allow the inprotected classes of oppressors and those they dont appove of to have the same care as the protected classes?

    doubtful, as they are not allowed to even have businesses, acquire capital, get scholarships or school funding, and more already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (We just don’t measure it against a fixed ruler any more – so moving the goal posts works without that old unequal merit system)

    The authors highlighted the importance and need for psychoeducation during infancy and adolescence as a way of encouraging equality among both sexes and respect for others. Garaigordobil explains that “one of the variables that foretells sexism is prejudice. This implies that psychological intervention to reduce prejudice in general would help in reducing sexism.”

    She goes on to add that “sexism is one of the main beliefs that keeps gender inequality alive and if we bear in mind the close connection between sexism and domestic violence, encouraging equality and reducing prejudice will have a positive affect on preventing violence in general.”

    SEE? the idea is to expand “scientific socialism” to PROVE or justify the action of the state to screw with childrens minds.

    joseph mengele was a piker compared to feminists!!!!

    they CONSTANTLY contradict themselves without any care to it, or any fear that anyone can question the “science”.

    so when they find TONS of sex differences they are described, then ignored!!!!

    However, sexism does indeed have an influence on how people see themselves. “Men with higher levels of hostile sexism describe themselves using adjectives associated with masculinity, i.e. physically strong, brave, sure of themselves, determined, admirable, etc” says Garaigordobil. “Women who display hostile sexism described themselves using characteristics that go against femininity such as not very cooperative, not very tolerant, not very compassionate and not very sensitive or sentimental.”

    In addition, men who scored highly in benevolent sexism described themselves using adjectives associated with femininity (warm, friendly, good…). This was also the case for women who displayed benevolent sexism.

    With regards to sexism and its link to self-perception, we must bear in mind that it does not affect men and women in the same way. Garaigordobil states that “whilst sexism allows men to continue in a position of superiority, it stops women from developing their full potential.” This means that the relationship between these two constructs is different for both sexes.

    and so we now have a abstract validation for those FOUR women who theya re claiming came forward on a mission to save society from Cain.

    except that the LAST addition to the pile only has a fantasy of what might happen that she and others claim they prevented from happening cause they think for Cain, as well as for themselves and AS well as for women too… ie… they had a 5 way argument with themselves and fancy that, the outcome was what they wanted it to be…

    by the way..
    the ONE thing that these studies refuse to do is to ascertain whether the ideas the tendencies and such have an empirical basis!!!

    everything is self referential, not world referential… so at some point, it leaves reality and like the world of stanly milgram and others, becomes unbounded in morality or ethics.

    we now have normalized the work and methods of dr mengele and soviet science, and yet.. we think the battle has just started when its almost over.

  33. uncleFred Says:

    Kraushaar has credibility issues too.

    http://news.yahoo.com/ap-exclusive-accuser-filed-complaint-next-job-080946066.html

    Kraushaar also filed charges at her next employer. The issue here is credibility and numbers. In every case there is good reason to doubt the credibility of each of Cain’s accusers.

    A pretty sad example of the excesses of a free press. There is no better choice than a free press, but in this case its deficiencies are on full display.

  34. John Says:

    Neo if you can delete the last two post I would appreciate it.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-cain-accuser-20111109,0,856407.story

  35. Baklava Says:

    Neo,

    Karen may not be as credible either:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/09/coming-next-the-joint-press-conference-of-cains-accusers/

    In this article there was another complaint that Karen filed 3 years later where she was demanding money, a promotion, an educational opportunity, reinstatement of the leave she took and we actually have the DETAIL of her complaint.

    Her complaint? It was that the boss sent a joke email that was widely circulated on the Internet referring to women and men in computer terms.

    I remember that email. It referred to upgrading from wife 1.0 to wife 2.0 causing so many issues.

    Who in america didn’t receive that email? Let’s all get our promotions, money, leave back and free education because lord knows we deserve it from off the backs of people like Cain.

  36. Baklava Says:

    Kerry, Love your post. It’s the only way to win!

    Neo, Another thing about Karen is that she doesn’t appreciate people digging into her past to see if she has a “pattern” and that it isn’t about her.

    HA!

    Karen. Look at mirror. You are trying to establish a pattern with Cain. You lose.

  37. DirtyJobsGuy Says:

    Interesting is she asked for money, reinstated leave, a GS grade increase and funding to attend the Harvard School of Government!

    My guess is she is the type who sincerely believes she was harassed (also that management is always against her) and that pure justice requires open access to a shopping list of goodies.

  38. Baklava Says:

    The paygrade enhancement alone would’ve been an increase of up to what $12,000 per year?

  39. Baklava Says:

    Maybe Karen will at least give us some “details” in her complaint and release the complaint for scrutiny.

    HA!

    I bet not.

  40. T Says:

    “. . . the cancerous political crime syndicate which they have become.” Perfected Dem, there’s a very successful bumper sticker in there somewhere.

    The other issue here which is fundamental to all of this is that there seems to be no real definition as to what a hostile workplace or sexual harassment is. It is defined however the complainant want’s it defined. On any given day one might compliment a working woman o her appearance. Some would take it as a pleasant compliment, others would take it as an inappropriate comment and others sill might see it as a sexual come-on. In our inability to define the situation, our culture simply accept the perception of the aggrieved, regardless of justification.

  41. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    How do you survive an obviously orchestrated shit storm like this?

    I don’t know what the current state of the law of defamation is, but I would say that, if you stood a good chance of stiff penalties being levied against those who falsely accuse you, you should, immediately and with great fanfare, sue them.

  42. T Says:

    Wolla Dalbo,

    I agree, but therein lies the problem. Faced with allegations of impropriety, one is immediately assumed guilty as charged and must prove one’s innocence to the media-at-large. To sue the source of the libel, however, that source is assumed innocent until proven guilty by that same media. The burden of proof is always on you.

  43. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    T–Burden of proof or not, if I had the wherewithal I would turn the shit storm around, and attack my accusers on every level. Right now, they pay no penalty for their accusations,

    But, if they found themselves increasingly fighting in court, paying attorney fees, giving depositions, having unsavory aspects of their pasts dug up and publicized, with the prospect of having their reputations ruined (presuming they care), a potentially having to pay a big penalty at the end of protracted legal battles, I think they would be much more reluctant to make such vague charges.

  44. Promethea Says:

    It’s fun to watch the implosion of political correctness.

    How will men and women ever get to meet each other at the workplace if they can’t do some ordinary flirting?

    Is the end of mating over? What is the endgame for these prissy lunatics?

  45. HEP-T Says:

    I once knew a man who worked with seven women as the only man in the department.
    he was written up for creating a hostile work enviroment by the women. His hostile act was to sharpen his stanley razor knife with a stone sharpener behind the womens back.
    he was charged with this and told the event would go on his permanent record.
    His crime?
    The tool box held the stone, the tool box was on the only shelf in the department behind the womens back. The man’s job was supplying the women with parts to be assembled and shipped, this involved cutting open many cardboard boxes with a razor knife, the knife would get dull and he would sharpen it.
    After the charge he was let go and because of the charge could not reaquire a job anywhere.
    my take away observation was seven lazy women decided to remove the reason to work by eliminateing the man who supplied them with parts to assemble.
    The fate of the man? he went on welfare and now is paid not to work by the state and federal government, hence the women are paying him their tax money from their wages to not work.
    Moral of this story?
    Most women are quite willing to cut their own noses off to spite their faces.

  46. HEP-T Says:

    My advice is, never see a co worker who is a female as a buddy or friend, they should be treated with kid gloves and ignored unless you have to interact with them. Then, be polite, courteous and kind but never allow yourself to think of any woman as anything more than a threat to your job and money while in the work place. democarts, homosexuals, muslims and liberals should be handled the same way

  47. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    I’ve tried to block out my horrible, decades ago, one year of law school. But, if I remember correctly, the reason that “public figures”–and a candidate for President is surely a “public figure”–rarely try to or succeed at suing for slander and defamation of character is that, if the person alleging slander and defamation is a “private individual,” what has to be proved is only that the slanderer had a “reckless disregard for the truth,” but if the person alleging slander and defamation is a “public figure,” what has to be proved is a higher standard of proof i.e. that the slanderer acted with “actual malice.”

    You have to prove that someone deliberately and knowingly concocted a whole bunch of lies about you, with the conscious, deliberate intent to harm your reputation, in the case of Cain, with the deliberate, malign intent to destroy his reputation and, therefore, his candidacy.

  48. Don Says:

    Karen Kraushaar (one of the two woman at the NRA who got a settlement), seems to be a more credible witness than Bialek in terms of her past. But she has yet to describe exactly what Cain is supposed to have done that constituted her cause of action and for which she received a relatively small payment from the NRA. She also says she wants to have a joint conference with other accusers: why? To compound the effect of the accusations?

    What is interesting is that it seems Karen also claimed sexual harrasment at her subsequent employment. Yet she says that is a seperate matter.

    A bit of hypocracy on her part, since she doesn’t apply the same standard to the Cain accusations.

  49. Don Says:

    I have to say, most women are good to work with.

    The ones who are not give the rest a bad rep.

  50. Occam's Beard Says:

    if you stood a good chance of stiff penalties being levied against those who falsely accuse you, you should, immediately and with great fanfare, sue them.

    The Reds would think that all of their Christmases … er … Winter Holidays had arrived at once. Keeps the story alive in the media, and in front of the public.

    I’m afraid that suing such people, while gratifying, falls into the same category as wrestling with pigs: you get muddy, and the pigs enjoy it.

  51. Baklava Says:

    Excerpt:

    Details of the workplace complaint that Kraushaar made at the immigration service are relevant because they could offer insights into how she responded to conflicts at work. She now works as a spokeswoman in the office of the Treasury Department’s inspector general for tax administration.

    Kraushaar’s complaint was based on supervisors denying her request to work full time from home after a serious car accident in 2002, three former supervisors said. Two of them said Kraushaar also was denied previous requests to work from home before the car accident.

    The complaint also cited as objectionable an email that a manager had circulated comparing computers to women and men, a former supervisor said. The complaint claimed that the email, based on humor widely circulated on the Internet, was sexually explicit, according to the supervisor, who did not have a copy of the email. The joke circulated online lists reasons men and women were like computers, including that men were like computers because “in order to get their attention, you have to turn them on.” Women were like computers because “even your smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for later retrieval.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/ap-exclusive-accuser-filed-complaint-next-job-080946066.html

    Another excerpt:

    Kraushaar’s complaint at the immigration service prompted managers to use caution when writing and speaking to Kraushaar while the complaint was being investigated, another former supervisor told the AP. Two supervisors said Kraushaar asked a colleague to act as a witness when she had conversations with one manager after she filed her complaint.

    The complaint at the immigration service was “nobody’s business,” Kraushaar said, because it was irrelevant to her sexual harassment settlement with Cain years earlier. “What you’re looking for here is evidence of an employee who is out to get people,” she said. “That’s completely untrue.”

  52. Baklava Says:

    All the women I work with are fun.

    Karen would not fit in our workplace.

  53. foxmarks Says:

    To continue engaging with the same accusers and the same accusations give them power. The claims must be addressed, and drawing a bright line between the character of accuser and accused was done.

    If the accusers continue, they will be a diminishing sideshow playing to audiences that Cain was never going to win. They will be analogous to Birthers and Truthers.

    I have seen several places that it is odd that these claims arose only during Cain’s short time with the NRA. My life experience reminds me that the service industry attracts crazies and misfits, even more than politics.

  54. Baklava Says:

    Foxmarks,
    And what does the NRA produce?

    Nothing.

    Everywhere else Cain worked something was produced.

  55. Baklava Says:

    I shouldn’t be harsh on the NRA. They are an organization necessary because of the size of government to represent Restaurant issues with the size of government….

    What is produced?
    A lot of people stating opinions and working through issues.

    Was Karen a good fit? Probably not. Instead of stating opinions and working through issues she filed a complaint.

    And she filed a complaint with the wrong organization if her complaint had weight. She should’ve filed with the EEOC!

  56. Baklava Says:

    http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

    See #16 of the following link
    http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/harassment-facts.html

  57. JuliB Says:

    I just finished reading Thomas Sowell’s book Dismantling America. He had a couple of essays on the Duke Rape Case – this reminds me of that.

  58. Curtis Says:

    There is definitely the right time to move on, and it is most likely soon. The damage has been done and it wasn’t “fair” but life isn’t fair. Tolstoi’s character “Denisov” comes to mind. Remember that episode? He couldn’t let go of an injustice and it cost him dearly. When you start to bore your friends with the same old saw, bingo, time to let it go.

    Hopefully, a playbook has been developed and will be used in the coming elections. And there will be decreasing returns for all those who want to use unsourced and unsound accusations.

  59. Baklava Says:

    What should Cain do?

    He should not address the issue anymore except to issue a statement.

    In the statement he should state that sexual harassment is a serious issue and what somebody should do if experiencing the issue – go to the EEOC and file a complaint.

    In his statement he should list people (especially women) who attest to his professionalism and his work ethic.

    ‘nuf said.

    Do I criticize Cain’s handling of the situation. no. You can’t estimate the lowness of the judgmental attackers in the world.

  60. Artfldgr Says:

    Baklava, not that withotu those women giving the good houskeeping seal of approval, the rest wont work… and even that wont work if the ones siding are not real women… (according to the left).

    the move was neutralized before the ability to make it was created… kind of like moving a innocuous chess piece into position where the movement of another would reveal the threat…

    when it was man hole covers and personal access ways… it was all fun and games… but now someone has fallen on the sharp stick, and there aint anything anyone can do about it but those who wont do anything about it.

    time also does not favor the recovery

  61. foxmarks Says:

    One of the complaints I read from those inclined to agree that there’s no harassment to be found anyway, is that the Cain campaign is proving to be inept.

    If all those fora hadn’t devolved into foolishness, I would like to ask: How did this inept campaign go from nobody to frontrunner in a couple of months? If the campaign is so inept, how has Cain held his polling lead in primary States, even through early “most inept” stages of the accusations.

    Big Media tells me it is because of the zealous fervor of Cain’s supporters. Implying they’re those bitter clingers, too stupid to see the writing on the wall. That means 25-30% of Rs are moronic clingers.

    Or there’s a problem between the people and the narrators.

    Heck, combine the 25% Cainiacs with the solid 10% Paulbots and you get a winning ticket with a rabid and evangelizing base of support. Add another 20% of “anybody but Barry” voters and we’re looking at a GOP landslide.

  62. Parker Says:

    “I would like to ask: How did this inept campaign go from nobody to frontrunner in a couple of months?”

    Precisely. Cain is running a very different campaign. It has been effective. The professional politico class is offended by Cain’s success to date. Without this bimbo smear effort by the DNC & the MSM he would be well in front of the pack by double digits.

  63. uncleFred Says:

    According to voice stress analysis Cain is telling the truth and Bailek is not. I’m not sure of the reliability of this technology, but apparently it is in use by a number of law enforcement agencies.

    http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/16002149/investigator-herman-cain-innocent-of-sexual-advances

    Cain’s fund raising is at an all time high, his poll numbers are either holding or starting to improve. He may just survive this.

  64. Artfldgr Says:

    uncleFred, people in reality who don’t deny it, catch such vocal things… the rest have to ignore hunches, dissonance and such to keep on rolling…

    the technology is actually quite good.
    but the reason lie detectors and such arent allowed is the problem with sociopaths… ie, they only work on the good people with guilt… they fail on sociopaths, the trained/knowlegable, delusional who believe, etc

  65. Ymarsakar Says:

    In terms of prevention, you basically have to have evidence and recordings to armor yourself and prevent such things from happening, by removing people’s reason to do it. If they still do it or you get caught unawares, you have to monitor them with spycraft and then pull them in when they attack and trap them with something they can’t get out of. An outright lie, contradiction, or video mumble jumbo.

  66. Ymarsakar Says:

    For example, the easiest way to get rid of people doing such things for money is to trace their past and then blackmail them by sending them anonymous warnings and part of the evidence gathered through spying.

    Blackmail would not deter those with a real grievance, as they might seek the police for more aid. But those seeking money alone, will usually withdraw if the waters become too hot, or something in their past is so true and so bad, that they worry about the police looking for them on it.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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