November 6th, 2012

2004 and 2012

In my most recent update to the previous post I mentioned how similar tonight is looking to 2004.

Bush won in 2004, of course. It looks like Romney won’t, although it is still within the realm of possibility that he might. But it’s the distribution of red and blue states that is so similar (at least, potentially similar; many have not been called yet). Look at the 2004 electoral map:

Ohio was called for Bush very late at night on election evening in 2004, if I’m recalling correctly. The state was very close, as were some others (New Mexico, for example). In 2004 Bush received 286 electoral votes to Kerry’s 251. Ohio, with its 20 electoral votes, accounted for the difference. It it had gone to Kerry, Kerry would have become president. Bush’s margin of victory in Ohio was a mere 118,000 votes, and if just 60,000 of them had gone for Kerry instead of Bush, Kerry would have won the whole thing while losing the popular vote big time (to the tune of about three million).

That made a deep impression on me at the time. And things may pan out in some similar fashion this evening—either with Romney winning or losing, but similarly in the state pattern of voting. It seems to me the states have become more locked in for one party or another, and I’m not sure what it would take to break that stranglehold. This election—in which Obama’s failure as president seemed crystal clear to me, and Romney’s superiority as a potential president—does not seem to have done so.

If Obama wins, it won’t be with a mandate. Compared to 2008, it’s embarrassing, especially if he loses the popular vote. But if I’m any judge of Obama, it won’t matter to him; he’ll pretend it’s a resounding victory. He will try any way he can (executive orders, czars) to get around a Congress that will not resemble the one he was fortunate enough to have in 2008. If he is reelected, it will be interesting to see what the Republicans in Congress are made of re Obamacare and all the rest.

“Interesting,” hmmm. Do we live in interesting times, or what?

Perhaps it seems I’m taking this lightly. I’m not. You never heard any “rah-rah, Romney is bound to win” stuff here. I am naturally somewhat of a pessimist anyway, so there’s that. But I thought the polls just weren’t strong enough for Romney—and, as I wrote earlier, my own internal polling as it were (friends who were still all in the tank for Obama) gave me a strong sense of foreboding.

[ADDENDUM: I’ve got a question for all of you. In 2004 (as I mentioned earlier today) I was incredibly nervous about the election, almost as nervous as in 2012. I also had trouble watching the results on TV, and I remember it as being a real squeaker. But I don’t quite remember the timeline. Looking it up just now, I find that Ohio (the state that made all the difference) was not called for Bush until 1 AM in the morning.

So here’s my question: do any of you remember that night? Did you think for quite some time that Kerry had won, and were you surprised at the reversal?

I remember 2000 much more vividly. I went to bed thinking Gore had lost, and woke up to the news that the outcome was still in doubt. And then, of course, the lingering battles…]

164 Responses to “2004 and 2012”

  1. Brad Says:

    After all your hyperventilating and attacking of people who finally decide not to vote for Romney (after, in some cases literally 40 plus years of casting votes for your corrupt party) now you are going to try to console yourself that it didn’t really matter in the first place?

    I’m glad my Romney vote in Maryland didn’t make a difference then. I never fooled myself that I was doing anything but trying for the lesser of two evils, and as a self-protective measure, but you were so keen to assure everyone that a Romney win would make All the Difference In the World.

    I consider most of you on here to be moral cowards. The system is BROKEN. Get it through your heads and make your own preparations to do whatever you are going to do.

  2. Tesh Says:

    Polls and even the existing reports are still coming from the media. The ones who are pretty much in the tank for Obama. This isn’t over.

    …and wouldn’t it be sweet to see them champion Obama overnight, only to be corrected in the morning by proper numbers?

  3. Tesh Says:

    Oh, and Brad? The system is broken, yes. More troubling though is that the *people* are broken.

  4. Pat Says:

    Having a hard time understanding tonight’s results. The USA just voted for Obamacare? Unbelievable. But I retain some hope, although it is going to be a long night. OH, VA, FL, CO hang in the balance.

    My wife is talking about how to get out of the US if Obama wins. We have a way out because I have citizenship in NZ.

  5. neo-neocon Says:

    Brad: I have no idea whom you’re addressing.

    First of all, who’s saying it doesn’t matter?

    Second of all, who said a Romney win would Make All the Difference in the World? Did you not read my piece on October 31, the one I quoted in a previous comment this evening? Let me quote it again:

    But my nervousness come next Tuesday will not be just about the prospect of four more years of Obama. Even if Romney wins, if his margin of victory is of anything less than landslide proportions I will be only somewhat placated; I think we will only have bought a bit of time. This is because of the Gramscian march through our institutions—especially education—the takeover that already occurred while most of us were looking the other way.

    Obama is merely the person who benefited from that march, the One who came to the fore because of the long and careful preparation. If the ground had not been properly laid, someone so far to the left (with his voting record, community organizing/Alinsky background, Ayers and Wright connections, and plans to “spread the wealth” and “bankrupt” coal plants) could never have been elected in the first place. Furthermore, someone who had presided over such troubled years as the last four—featuring a stagnant economy, Obamacare and the way it was passed, Benghazi, Honduras (remember that?), and the smallness, nastiness, and class warfare of his campaign—would never have come so close to re-election without an MSM hopelessly compromised and in the tank, a school system dedicated to leftist indoctrination, and arts so degraded and propagandist.

    We will have our work cut out for us no matter what.

    As I said, I wrote that on October 31. So I have no idea what you’re talking about. I believed that then, and I believe that now. That said, I also believe that a Romney win would make this country’s task a lot easier. It would also have indicated we had a populace that hadn’t gone so far to the left. But I never fooled myself that, unless it was a Romney landslide, the situation wasn’t dire either way, in terms of the state of mind of so much of the voting public.

  6. Brad Says:

    Well, there is still a chance Romney can pull this out and I hope he does.

    I don’t quite see it the way you do anyway. As far as I’m concerned both parties leave much to be desired and both have issues that they cover but the other party does not, and people do want to look out for their interests.

    It just seems that people’s interests are leading them in radically different directions.

  7. Mac Says:

    I have been on the losing side of enough elections now to start getting pretty apprehensive when my side spends a lot of time trying to debunk or explain away discouraging polls. I’m naturally pessimistic and am trying not to let my thoughts get too dark. But if we’re really seeing a turn toward a permanent Obama-ite majority…well, it isn’t going to be pretty.

  8. Tesh Says:

    Oh, definitely. There’s a “cold civil war” of competing interests. The parties reflect that. That’s why I say the people are broken; it all starts with the populace who willingly embraces statism.

  9. Brad Says:

    The only way you could write posts attacking poor libertarian guys (who have LITERALLY been screwed over by the Republican party as far as balanced budgets and such for as long as I’ve been alive) who decide that a vote for Mittster isn’t something they want to do is if you thought a vote for the Mittster was going to save the country.

    Look, I’m going to admit: I want Mitt to win because I recognize a *very slight* chance I’m wrong. Maybe he’ll come in and be a brilliant politician and get some stuff done, maybe he’s not as corrupt and waffling as I thought, etc. He’s change, even if everything I know tells me he’s “tepid” change at best, and not everything he wants to do (or that you guys rah-rah) about here is in my personal best interest. I’m glad there’s still a chance he could win even though things do seem mostly to lean Obama right now.

    But I’ve been attacked by people on here as if I was a necromancer eating children for the sin of apparently not being enthusiastic enough about this businessman’s character for chrissake. It’s almost like a cult of personality or something. I don’t get it, but if I’m going to suffer almost being called a traitor for not thinking this guy is a Knight in Shining Armor, then it would be nice if you could at least pretend this election is a disaster and not a “ho hum, Obama will have to work against Republicans in congress!” Ok?

  10. Charles Says:

    Hmmm, Neo, I think my comments are going into a spam filter or something. (this is a test)

  11. Oldflyer Says:

    Brad if I were going to pollute Neo’s forum with foul language I would tell you what I really think of you. How dare you call anyone on this forum a “moral coward”?

    I would say a moral coward is someone who throws rhetorical stones at others who are hurting, while hiding behind anonymity.

  12. neo-neocon Says:

    Brad: well, you are wrong, and my own words prove it. I meant what I said on October 31. I never said in any way that Mitt would save the country. In fact, I’ve been bewailing the Gramscian march for quite some time.

  13. Brad Says:

    Please DO tell me how you really feel!
    I certainly got enough education in your (and a few others) abilities to string coherent arguments together instead of personal attacks a few days ago. It was rather sickening and uncalled for.

    You know something? Hating on people who vote the way you want them to isn’t very smart. But then, you also hate on people who don’t vote the way you want them to no matter how many times they’ve been screwed by your particular political party. And you hate on Democrats.

    Hate. Hate. Hate. That seems to be all you are about.

  14. neo-neocon Says:

    Brad: you know, it really does no good to beat up on people here right now. Everyone is upset. I’m asking you to cease with it.

  15. Brad Says:

    So then Neo:

    Why do you care whether someone votes third party or Mickey Mouse or doesn’t vote rather than voting for your particular candidate?

    Just what makes what I did (hold my nose and vote for Romney) morally mandatory for all voters?

    I still say until a great amount -possibly a majority- of people refuse to vote for one of the two Primary Chumps we are going to be stuck with ineffectual and corrupt leadership. Clearly you must disagree, since it is such a sin to ever punish Republicans during a Presidential race…

  16. Brad Says:

    Fine, Neo.
    I’ll leave here for awhile again and not comment for a few days no matter how the election turns out.

    I know it’s no good to point out I was merely defending myself…

  17. Curtis Says:

    The Brads and Acklers have now been proved right that there was no way America could be saved without recourse to their method. That their method was unavailable does not register with them, but hey, what’s the diff among friends? Unless of course they and their friends would have JOINED US and might have made the DIFFERENCE.

    Now, what do they propose, seeing as we were wrong. Or do they get to lay back and enjoy “being right.” I’m not sure that they do or will.

    Let the supplicants come to the gov’t teat. It will run dry soon. The businessman and investor has heard loud and clear. Soon the only revenue left will be the phone from Obama-phone-lady.

    Brad and Ackler, you really suck. You were more about your own anger and revenge than about joining the only credible solution. And you want props? I don’t think so.

    It was a close race. How might it have turned out with full support? Your support? Your objections remind us of sophmores in high school regarding senior advantages. We all have to pass through that stage and usually none suffer by it. Tonight you may have cost us the election by your fifth column comments which demoralized everyone. You should have kept your fears to yourselves and worked to free America of Obama. Now you are right in part because you made that right happen.

    Welcome to it and remember that the same thing happened in the French revolution.

  18. Bob From Virginia Says:

    The America that was a defender of freedom throughout the world died tonight. One Obama election was a fluke, re-election after his abyssal record is internal rot. Soon we will experience the just what that means but tomorrow is definitely the beginning of a new era in world history, one without the US playing a positive role. I just hope that this country has so much economic hardship that Obama will not be able to do evil with our military.

    Notice I did not say “MY” country.

    There is some good news, we can laugh at the antics of a people who do stupid things and then wonder things aren’t working out.

  19. cornflour Says:

    Some here have admitted to being natural pessimists, and I too fall into that camp. For the last few months, I’ve been playing with the “make your own map” feature for the electoral college votes at Real Clear Politics, and the election is working out pretty much as I expected. Neo has said many times that it would be very close.

    It’s 11:30 PM as I write this, and the rural and small-town votes are counted last, so I still have hopes for Ohio and Colorado. Believe it or not, I’m confident that Romney will take Florida by the thinnest of margins. That would be enough for the win.

    If I’m wrong, then so be it. I’m not a big fan of despair, which differs markedly from pessimism. Either way, I go to work in the morning — and I recently retired, so I’m not talking about the job.

  20. Julia NYC Says:

    I’m just sick about this. I am so naive I really thought it’d be a blow out for Romney. I can’t believe people voted for Obama again, after all we know about him. Nope. Don’t get my fellow Americans at all. It’s a new country. I certainly don’t recognize it anymore. I’m heartbroken about America’s diminishment [if that’s even a word] in the world. Obama is just such a small President. How on earth could this have happened? Sure, the academics and government workers of course would vote Obama, but the rest? It’s incomprehensible to me.

  21. gcotharn Says:

    Mea Culpa. I was wrong about the most important thing: I strongly believed the American people would refuse to let Barack come near a second term. And I was cocky about it: I saw it so clearly. I apologize for being cocky.


    Going forward:
    –we can be positive, b/c the American people are not dead, yet. Such claims, however sincere, were, imo, hyperbole.
    — Obama will be under siege from even before he is sworn in for his second term. Fun to watch.
    — a second term of Obama will damage leftism even more than did a first term. Helpful. The American public will rise, against the governance of Democrats, in massive disgust. MASSIVE DISGUST. MASSIVE. DISGUST. Helpful.
    — the Senate will go to Repubs, strongly, in 2014. Helpful.
    — our nation will never again do affirm action voting for another black man. Small consolation, but its something. We have now checked that off the list, and are done with it.
    — if this election goes long, for weeks, due to vote hanky panky, it will help the cause of tightening up our elections in order to reduce voter fraud.


    more controversial opinions:
    conservatives need to take some lessons to heart..

    First, I have a fond feeling for Romney, but he made some mistakes, and we ought look at them with clear eyes.

    — Romney ought have run on principles, as opposed to what he did run on, which was his own competency. Romney set up a choice between his own competency vs. re-electing the first black POTUS. Romney made the election too much about Obama, personally. Mistake. Conservatives ought run on principle! We have a HUGE advantage! on principle! We should exploit it.

    — “appealing to moderates” is a total losing strategy.

    — hoping to not scare Dem voters is a total losing strategy. The Repub will ALWAYS be effectively demonized by Dems + media. ALWAYS. The Repub should not waste any breath giving any effort to attempting to not scare Dems. Instead, the Repub should concede that Dems will be scared, and run on principle.


    Finally, honestly, in the long run, things will turn out okay.
    Sometimes, when a battle is lost, it opens up tremendous opportunity to rebound and regain ground. We have that opportunity, now.

    I know people are devastated. I say to you: there is opportunity, where we currently are. It hurts. But there is opportunity. My nation is not dead yet.

  22. Curtis Says:

    Idiots aside, it is now time to determine whether we give up or go on.

    Battle of Britain and Dunkirk anyone?

    Let Obama reap the crops of his Muslim Brotherhood and Welfare Bought troops. Both are antagonistic of each other and repugnant to intelligent people. Obama has gained another term and has not the power to make it work.

    Romney in 2016!

  23. Mac Says:

    “My nation is not dead yet.”

    No, it is very much alive. The problem is that it’s a minority within the United States of America. Only by a very slight margin, but still a minority. And the trend is further in that direction.

  24. Rob Says:

    Thanks for picking a winner guys. I hope that soon we can talk honestly about the Dingbat (a.k.a. Romney) and the fact that evasion and self-delusion will not help us pick good, successful candidates.

    What has happened is a terrible thing for America, but it’s the best thing that could possibly have happened to the Republican party and the conservative movement in the US. Romney would have destroyed us or at least set us back decades. He was also just too damned DUMB to be president. I’m sorry, but someone has to say it….

    Onward and upward!

  25. James Says:

    Sorry folks I blew that one big time. Well just means got to buckle down and work harder.

  26. holmes Says:


    Sorry, I’m afraid that you’re misreading the election. It wasn’t about the candidate, it was about the electorate. And we’re not who we thought we were, basically. That is a profound change and a new and exciting candidate will not do much to change the fact that most Americans are a) dependent upon government and b) don’t mind.

    As to Brad, well, what an asshole.

    Goodnight all.

  27. SteveH Says:

    Idiocracy is not just a movie anymore. It’s here and it’s real.

  28. Curtis Says:

    Jews and Christians believe in the power of repentance. Repentance can change, according to both Christians and Jews, that most important of all things: one’s eternal life. No small wonder then if repentance is exceedingly hard to do.

    “I was wrong.” How many times have you heard that and concluded the confessor was true in his confession. Not very often?

    The right to repent is Heaven’s greatest responsibility upon us. Obama (and I mean Obama as a term covering all those he represents) does not believe in repentance. He does, however, make faux repentence a practice.

    This deception by Obama will soon be used in an attempt to appeal to us. We will not be fooled and then the real face will appear. Know how to record and reproduce that face. It is to our advantage to use the power of technology. You will see an immediate attempt to silence and chill phone cameras and other recording devices. You know Obama doesn’t want a Rodney King on his watch. But there are many that will happen. Be ready.

  29. M J R Says:

    Curtis says (11:39 pm), “Romney in 2016!”

    I would never ask Mr. Romney to go through all this again, and I would ^never^ ask ^Mrs.^ Romney, with her health problems, to go through all this again.

    Thanks, Romneys, for your willingness to help see this country through this mess.

    This was our last, best chance to avert becoming another Greece. But Romney could not defeat the demographics: black people in solidarity with one of their own; masses already dependent on government; and a critical mass of minds who have fallen prey to what neo aptly describes as the Gramscian march through our institutions. The scale has now been tipped, and the demographic projections argue that those scales will tip more and more in that direction.

    It’s finished, the great American experiment. As someone else already commented here, Alexis de Tocqueville had it right: “The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”

    It’s finished.

  30. Francesca Says:

    With Obama still around, how about hoping for some serious investigation and rolling heads for such as F and F and most certainly Benghazi? The target is still vividly visible.

  31. Pat Says:

    The United States of America just committed suicide. RIP the Constitution.

  32. parker Says:

    The final votes are not in, but I was expecting a 5%+ R&R victory instead of the slim 1% at this time. I was wrong and naturally I am disappointed. My perception of my fellow Americans is gloom and doom. However, in many ways I must acknowledge they are not my fellow Americans, they are Venezuelans.

    If the current trend continues, we now hear from the MSM how prophetic and wise the founders were in setting up the Electoral College. A small victory is that I am glad my state (Iowa) switched from blue to red.

  33. George Says:

    Well, he called on the voters to take “revenge” and they heeded his words.

    Remember how often the media would condemn politicians, especially Republicans, for running negative campaigns? Obama, unable to run on this record, ran the most negative presidential campaign of my lifetime, but nary a peep of criticism from the MSM.

  34. Steve D Says:

    ‘The United States of America just committed suicide.’

    As did Britain, Rome, Athens, Babylon, Ancient Egypt and the Mycenaean civilization before us just like many others. Did you think we would be different?

  35. parker Says:

    “The target is still vividly visible.”

    Yes, Francesca F&F and Benghazi are still on the table. The republican House has a lot of investigating to do and hearing to hold. Let Team Obama unravel on C-Span.

  36. Curtis Says:

    From Brad:

    “It was sickening and uncalled for.”

    Wow. Such hardship upon you. Poor, poor, little boy. Sickening. And uncalled for. Poor Brad. Sorry.

    Again. Wow. Brad was treated with more reason and civility than Romney yet he feels the comments here against him were “sickening.”

    Poor, poor Brad.

    I just have to repeat: sickening. That is Brad’s description of his treatment by Neo: sickening.

    Brad, you are a dork.

    Oh, people just hate me and the comments are just so sickening.

    Brad, you didn’t help yourself. You won and then cried out your pain. What a pussy you are. Little Lord Fauntleroy. Made to think everyone cares about you. Here’s a clue. We really don’t. You are privileged to be able to post. Go try your crap at Obama’s circle. Even they don’t like you.

    Brad, you are a loser and a quisling. Even when you win. Neo and so many here have given you a forum and you respond with petulant petty complaints just like the child who pouts when his Gerber peas aren’t the right temperature.

    Brad. Brad.


  37. kolnai Says:

    MJR –

    Having long been inclined to believe what you wrote, I believe it even more tonight.

    My reason for pessimism was always, in the end, very simple: If we were stupid enough to elect Obama once, then odd are we would be stupid enough to elect him twice. I could never get away from that thought. It haunted me, even in the best of times (2010).

    Because the reasons, if you can call them that, we voted for him in 2008 were not even semi-rational, but rather deeply pathological. And that kind of pathology is impervious to circumstances or arguments.

    I saw a stat tonight that said it all: 2/3 of people said the economy was bad to poor; a majority of them blamed…


    Which means the people need a scapegoat to justify their irrational attractions to Obama and the promissory state he represents. That was the case from day one. And it still is.

  38. Curtis Says:

    M J R.

    That’s right. Did you know that Romney gave up over $1 billion dollars to run for President.

    Yes, $1 billion.

    And that piece of shit Obama made money, just like Clinton, from his position.

    Fake champions.

  39. Bob From Virginia Says:

    Yes, Steve D I thought America would be different.

  40. GoodShipGeorge Says:


  41. parker Says:

    Personally, I cut Bradsters a bit of slack. Brad insists on purity in the political arena where purity does not exist. I applaud his purity and simultaneously disparage his gloating purity.

  42. Bob From Virginia Says:

    gcotharn,you are wrong about the American people. They are accustomed now too a good life and security they did not earn. they believe that voting for the man who makes the nicest promises and looks the best will be all that is needed to provide. And they will be right for the most part. And then a Greece will happen and they will look around for anybody to blame other than themselves.

    I hope everyone who voted for Obama gets hurt real bad for what they have done.

  43. Smock Puppet, 10th Dan Snark Master Says:

    At the very least, it means we are now clearly STUCK WITH OBAMACARE.

    That’s about as FUCKED as things can be.

    It was passed in a blatantly unconstitutional manner, by electors who never even SAW the damned thing, much less READ it…

    And now half the nation’s been stupid enough to re-affirm it.

    We are Right and Proper Fucked, people.

    If Obama’s election stands as it appears as I type, then I give this nation 25 years, tops. Over the next decade or so, the economic chaos of The One’s irresponsible spending behaviors are going to ruin this nation. And at some point, it’s going to break apart as a direct result of that — or, worse still, we’ll do what Germany did when IT had runaway inflation… and elect exactly The Wrong Sort to “fix” things.

    And if the prospect of a fascist America doesn’t scare the piss out of you, then you REALLY aren’t thinking that through.

  44. Francesca Says:

    Time for some payback from us.

    a. The media: Let’s us cancel them from our lives. Cancel the papers, newsmags, CNN, Fox, etc. We DON’T need them. We can get all the info we need online. Their unbelievably biased reporting is a major reason for this fiasco.

    b. Obama: Let the investigations begin. F and F; Benghazi, czars, etc. Heads need to roll.

    c. Let’s clean up whatever we can and get ready for the next time.

    Let’s roll.

  45. kolnai Says:

    Smock Puppet –

    Indeed, that is the worst part of this. I feel we could have limped along in gridlock for another four years and still emerged at the end of it if Obamacare was not on the books.

    But Obamacare is the epitaph of the republic. And it is now set in stone.

  46. Curtis Says:

    Let us get through the next week of gloating and then see how the broke state and federal gov’t will pay for medicare, medicaid, disaster relief, national security, unemployment, education “investment”, interest on the debt, the debt itself, welfare, aid to other nations . . . and when the rest of the world finally says bullshit to being paid with printed money let’s see how Obama will pay. How will he pay?

  47. M J R Says:

    kolnai, 12:23 am —

    Very well put.

    Even had Romney won, by, say, 53 percent to 47 percent, we’d still be dealing swith a country 47 percent favoring the garbage we now have, with scales still tipping in the wrong direction. Romney was going to buy the good guys time, but that’s all. But it still never looked good in the long run.

    It would be nearly impossible to educate the public on the Community Reinvestment Act (1977), the agitating by Sharpton types to pressure institutions to grant mortgages to people who could never pay them back, and then (finally) the greed of Wall Street types who bundled and sold those worthless pieces of paper — and NOTE, those Wall Street types are NOT necessarily all Republicans as the steoeotype insists; they heavily support Dmeocrats as well, at least with their monetary contributions. Many of them are pretty much apolitical, betting on whomever can best line their pockets.

    And so it goes.

    Curtis, 12:26 am —

    I had not even thought of the financial aspect of the Romneys’ sacrifice. Wow.

  48. Curtis Says:


    I forgot Obamacare.

  49. neo-neocon Says:

    Curtis: actually, I believe you are incorrectly lumping Brad and Ackler together. Brad did espouse the ideas you are describing, but Ackler did not. Ackler’s only posts here had to do with his prediction that Sandy would cause people to vote for Obama, and that it would be a landslide. I disagreed with him, and thought he was a concern troll (and on that latter point I think I was incorrect). But that was the total of what he posted about here.

  50. gcotharn Says:

    Bob Virginia,

    We are not dead, for two reasons:

    1. truth: it wants to be known
    2. leadership: we are leaders, Bob. You are a leader. All of us who still understand freedom are leaders. We will lead. Without apology.

    Fighting off Obamacare:
    just b/c reversing a government program hasn’t been done … doesn’t mean it can’t be done. We can fight it over time, as insurgents who shoot from behind trees – inflicting damage – then run away to shoot another day. Insurgency. Abstract warfare – over time. Hive mind. Wolverines!

    Speaking of:
    who is the unhappiest man in America?
    Chief Justice John Roberts

  51. neo-neocon Says:

    Brad: when did I ever say it was “morally mandatory” to vote for Romney? I thought a vote for Johnson was wasted, and harmed Romney’s effort to become president, and could ultimately lead to Obama’s re-election, if enough people did it. I think voting 3rd-party has that effect, and that this election was too important for such actions.

    That is because I think Romney’s election would have given us at least a chance and would have bought some time to change things (especially if he improved the economy and did some of the things he planned). Not because I thought Romney would Save Us.

  52. M J R Says:

    Curtis, 12:58 am —

    “Let us . . . see how the broke state and federal gov’t will pay for [long list of entitlements].”

    They’ll charge it our yours and my grandchildren’s credit card, with dollars worth far less than what they’re worth today — unless the laws of international finance get revised, in which case I throw up my hands.

    Or I just throw up.

  53. Curtis Says:

    You know, I knew it was going to happen. There is too much corruption in the legal and financial world which precludes a different outcome. It is like puking. You don’t want to do it but you must because a greater knowledge than you simply requires it. When you have to puke, you don’t argue, you look for a place to do it.

    I think we have been told it is time to puke. We cannot resist the demand to purge. Now surely, it is not seemly to puke: One must find a private place and assure those in his circle that his absence is due to a non-pukable reason.

    But the puke has preceded the planning. The world knows we must purge or be sick or even worse die.

    We must embrace our purging.

  54. Curtis Says:

    Neo, you are right about the lumping. I agree.

  55. Curtis Says:

    it is why we love you.

  56. Curtis Says:


    at this time to care or be concerned.

    But that is the trait of a good heart.

  57. neo-neocon Says:

    kolnai: why is Obamacare set in stone? Republicans control the House, and there are possibilities such as this one.

    That’s not to say that the Republicans would actually have the cojones to try.

  58. gcotharn Says:

  59. Promethea Says:

    It will be interesting to learn just how much fraud the Democrats perpetrated in this election.

    Tomorrow I’m sure I’ll have much to say about this 2012 election. Right now, I’m sad that our American countryfolk have chosen slavery over freedom. Welcome to Venezuela.

    Goodnight, everyone, and cry, the beloved country. We have entered a new era, the Age of Decline.

  60. davisbr Says:

    I quit.

  61. kolnai Says:

    neo –

    That won’t work. Obama will never sign such a bill. As ever, the budget will come down to a last minute compromise where Republicans are forced to cave on funding Obamacare, and Obama will do whatever else he has to do by himself.

    And even if it could work, Republicans do not have the cojones to try.

    Meanwhile, IPAB goes up, the mandate kicks in, and the regulations get written.

  62. Granny3 Says:

    I am so sad that I have to write somewhere. Crying in my living room, not believing that so many of my countrymen have tossed aside all those things which were planned and fought for so many years. Our founders and the care for freedom and limited government. Their care for one another without depending on government. Their fear of a huge government. All is lost as far as I can tell. The universities are full of leftists and radicals, indoctrinating generations of true believers. We are finished as a free nation. May God have mercy on all of us.

  63. kolnai Says:

    Granny3 –

    Sadly, that is the key. This ain’t changing any time soon.

    Leftists own the schools. Leftists own the media. Demographics are titling lopsidedly to the the left end of the spectrum. There is no amount of campaigning or putting forth charismatic candidates that can change any of that. And there are not enough conservatives who care intensely about it in the country to break the monolith apart.

  64. vanderleun Says:

    To steal a page from the dead leftist Joe Hill just before he was executed: “Don’t mourn. Organize.”

    People here may want to read tonight’s “Game Called on Account of Darkness” by Dan Greenfield.

    A sample: “The question is whether a right-wing movement can emerge that will make the vast majority of small businessmen in this country feel as negatively about a Democratic president as welfare voters feel about a Republican president?

    This election has come close to testing that proposition. The time has come to test it further. The left went after gun owners, the way that it went after business owners, and the NRA used its hostility to build a powerful coalition of gun owners who broke the will of the elected left and made them turn on easier prey.

    The key is organization. The left built its machines by convincing entire groups that they had a binding interest in a reflexive opposition to Republicans under a Democratic umbrella. Consolidating an opposition based on the same principles, that same sense that its financial oxygen will be cut if the Democrats win, is doable. But it cannot begin and end with the financials.

    This is a cultural war and living in denial of that is senseless. Those social issues? They belong on the table. Because the alternative is that the table will belong to the left and we will be stuck arguing the level of regulation that is appropriate in a society whose entire moral imperative is based on the values of regulation.”

    Found at:

  65. Gary Rosen Says:

    Here’s my question:

    When the truth comes out about Benghazi, how many of the jerks who put Obama over tonight will deny ever having voted for him?

  66. Steve Says:

    kolnai, tie spending cuts (including Obamacare) to raising the debt limit? Somehow I bet that Republicans in Congress will cave and raise taxes significantly (reinforcing the economic ‘depression’).

    I am stunned that Romney lost. I didn’t hold out much hope for him dealing with the problems but I thought he would win with tea party support.

  67. texexec Says:

    I am very disappointed in America’s electorate. Disappointed that it could not see the quality of Romney and the incompetence and self centeredness of Obama.

    Actually, there two Americas now. There is rural America with its traditional values and urban America with its value system built on “what’s in it for me”.

    I live out in the good America…the one where it takes me 20 minutes to go buy a bottle of milk…the one where neighbors mow another neighbor’s yard without being asked when that neighbor has an unexpected sickness…the one where people live far enough apart that it’s easy for them to not bother each other and where they have much freedom in how they live…the one that has Bible study groups in neighborhoods…the one where people enjoy nature more than jiving in clubs…the one where persons give the “index finger on the steering wheel wave” to approaching cars in the neighborhood even if they don’t know who’s in the other car…the one that saw the quality of Mitt Romney…and more.

    Look at the election map by counties…all over America, it’s essentially red with a few spots here and there that are blue because those spots represent urban areas.

    I wish we could divide the country into those two Americas. I’d certainly stay right where I am.

  68. kolnai Says:

    Steve –

    Yes, that would be the idea. But that would involve being willing to shut down the government, perhaps for a long time.

    Not only will Republicans never do that, but they would get crushed if they tried.

    Yes, they will raise taxes. Take it to the bank.

  69. gcotharn Says:

    More SultanKnish

    Revolutions are not born out of success, they are born out of despair.

  70. neo-neocon Says:

    Gary Rosen: here’s my answer—none.

    Many of them don’t know much about Benghazi, but if and when more information comes out they either will ignore it, or not care about it if they do happen to hear it.

    Sorry, but that’s my take on it.

  71. neo-neocon Says:

    kolnai: somewhere I read that it could somehow be done without being subject to a veto. I forget how, though, but my guess is just that they fail to vote him the funding? It would be some sort of showdown that could get ugly, and I doubt they have the stomach for it.

  72. Steve Says:

    neo, if the Republicans cave (which they probably will) I think that will be the end of the Republican party. A lot of tea party types will be done with them.

  73. liberty wolf Says:

    I am very, very disappointed, I thought Romney could pull this out. He was a high quality candidate. The media is part of the issue here, since mostly they’ve been in the bag for Obama. Benghazi may hang him eventually, but there’s no telling. I am very worried, about the economy. And, yes, Obamacare.

    Though we need to — be hopeful and carry on anyway.

    I do think that another issue is that people are not educated enough about classic liberalism, about the foundations of this country, the founding ideas. Some of this has to do with the educational system. We have a lot of work to do people. This country has been seduced by fear and identity politics, but it can be turned around.

    Any way, this is discouraging but just some thoughts.

  74. thomass Says:

    Steve Says:

    “Somehow I bet that Republicans in Congress will cave and raise taxes significantly (reinforcing the economic ‘depression’).”

    I say cave tomorrow. It is not a c & p thing either. It would be calling Obama’s bluff. His bluff that eliminating the Bush tax cuts will wipe out his deficits. His bluff that it won’t hurt the economy… Just be clear; we’re just doing this to show the country how full of it you are. You keep blaming us for economic issues for not giving you this. Here you go. Own it.

  75. M of Hollywood Says:

    Mia Love.
    that was the last straw. that broke me.

  76. kolnai Says:

    neo –

    You may be right, but as I understand it it’s a budgetary matter (which means, let’s be real, a continuing resolution matter), and the Republicans will compromise and pass one. Obama will not sign one that does not include funding for Obamacare.

    Result: a) government shuts down; or b) Republicans cave. (the third option, Obama and the Senate caving, is impossible).

    Republicans will cave. And there you have it.

    Steve –

    I think you may be right. I am not prone to thinking radical change likely, but it really looks as though the Republican party is on its last legs, such as it is.

    This will be very bad, fracturing the coalition in half and giving rise to an even larger libertarian vote.

    Fact is, the Republicans in the House are boxed in. They don’t have any option except to fight until the brink is reached, and then cave. And Obama knows it. We’ll get mad at them, and it may, as you said, effectively end the GOP as we know it, but it won’t really be their fault. If they don’t cave, then they will get destroyed in the midterms, and the GOP will be reduced to a husk anyway.

    Pardon my language: We’re f**ked.

  77. Pat Says:

    Bye bye America. We are out of here. Who wants to live in a country stupid enough to vote for Obamacare and increasing our $16 trillion debt?

  78. kolnai Says:

    Since I feel really alone right now, I’m just going to write more.

    Expanding on the “death of the GOP” theme, this is the culmination of what William Vallicella calls “the conservative disadvantage.” What he’s referring to is the fact that leftism is a religion of politics, a belief system in which life itself is subsumed beneath and defined in terms of politics. This gives them an intensity and an activist edge that the more passive and politically confined conservatives cannot match, once the proportion of leftists in a given population reaches a certain ratio.

    For conservatives are people who view politics as a means only, not an end in itself. It is a part of life, not life itself.

    The critical proportion of leftists has been attained. So now the numbers for us conservatives don’t add up. We need, in effect, a leftist elan for our causes, and in sufficient numbers, to take down the Gramscian institutions, but also to remain conservatives (and not Bolsheviks). It’s as though we must change our nature in order to preserve it.

    It’s already clear that a majority of conservatives/Republicans who are looked to to comment on these matters are failing to appreciate the magnitude of what has just transpired. Mark Steyn gets it, as he always has, and maybe a few others. Otherwise, the navel gazing and recriminations sure to come in the conservative ranks are going to be a sickening as the gloating of the lefties.

    The libertarian-leaning are already blaming social conservatism, when this was patently a vote, inter alia, for fiscal liberalism, if not outright socialism. Had this theoretically been a libertarian instead of a Republican campaign, the defeat would have been even more epic.

    Some Tea Party types are griping that the establishment foisted another moderate loser upon us with Romney, and that if only we’d run a conservative, red in tooth and claw, we’d have won. I was as ready to blame those culprits as anyone else, given my longstanding intense dislike of Romney. But alas, this is just not what happened. Romney ran a very good campaign, and he provided the electorate with a choice. Perhaps not as dramatic as Tea Partiers or libertarians would have liked, but dramatic enough. And he got creamed. And it would have happened to any other hypothetical candidate.

    We want to believe these things – it’s the social conservatives, it’s the moderates and establishment-types, etc. – because they frame the problem in such a way that the solution is readily apparent and relatively achievable. The real problem, however, is much worse than this. It is institutional and demographic, on the one hand, and favorable to the leftist “political religion” on the other.

    So the question is: How do we turn the conservative disadvantage into an advantage without selling our souls or becoming Tories? How do we fight like leftists, and effectively, while remaining what we are? This isn’t about libertarian vs. social conservative, establishment vs. grass roots. It’s about how we, all of us, together, can act like Gramscians and Alinskyites in order to overthrow the tyranny of the Gramscians and Alinskyites.

    I’m not sure we can. Conservativism is by definition opposed to ideologizing everything. I’m not sure we should, either.

    There’s the rub. It seems an almost impossible dilemma, a catch-22, from which there is no way out. We can continue to fight honorably and with half of our souls, as we have – and keep losing. Or we can fight like the scum of the earth with our whole polluted souls – and maybe even continue to keep losing, but granting that we win, perhaps becoming unrecognizable to ourselves.

    All of which is perhaps a more complicated way of saying we are not a center-right country anymore. The parameters have shifted so far to the left that conservatism can’t win nationally any more. We have become so deranged about race and ethnicity that I seriously doubt we will see another white President for decades – not bad in itself, but indicative of how unserious and screwed up we are. We have become so paranoid and resentful about the wealthy that for the first time in our history we have something approaching class consciousness in a majority of the electorate.

    Racial demagoguery + socialist rhetoric = winning formula.

    As Lenin asked, “What Is To Be Done?”

    I have no answer – I’m speechless.

  79. Richard Saunders Says:

    Well, I’m a great believer in the democratic process. The American people voted for four more years of a moribund economy, high unemployment, high taxes, high gas prices, Indian medical care, energy rationing, abandoning our allies and sucking up to our enemies, leaving our children and grandchildren with unpayable debt and a bankrupt social security.

    Let’s see how the voters like it.

  80. Bob From Virginia Says:

    Richard wrote ” The American people voted for four more years of a moribund economy, high unemployment, high taxes, high gas prices, Indian medical care, energy rationing, abandoning our allies …Let’s see how the voters like it.”

    Gosh, Rich, do you think the electorate would even notice it? They are pretty thick.

  81. Gary Rosen Says:

    kolnai, your post at 3:14 is excellent. I was especially taken with the quote, “leftism is a religion of politics, a belief system in which life itself is subsumed beneath and defined in terms of politics.” I saw a comment like this on another blog (AoS) where someone spoke of liberalism/leftism in terms of “identity politics”. This is what is scary because it will probably be much more difficult to “change” these people.

    Like neo, I am a “changer” and you are too, no? I suspect that what the changers here all have in common is that we had a certain set of beliefs, and then when events transpired that did not conform to those beliefs we decided we had to re-examine them. In my case, for instance, it began with the results of Reagan’s foreign policy. The point is that our beliefs were not so bound up in our own identity that it caused a personal crisis for us to change them. This may not be the case for many of those who voted to continue the policies of the past four years.

  82. Bob From Virginia Says:

    Clearly the public is too stupid is to learn from reliable sources of information, that leaves education by experience. Either we were wrong about the effects of Obama on everything or we are right. If we are right then there will be a great deal of hardship that can be placed at Obama’s door. I suspect most of his supporters will look for anybody but Obama to blame but a few may wake up.

    If his supporters are right and he has saved the economy, ended wars and what not, then he is a g-d man with super powers that somehow we missed.

    BTW we won’t have to wait long for the unpleasantness to start. Sequestarian starts in a few weeks. I wonder whether any of his supporters will notice. They seem a rather insular lot.

  83. expat Says:

    Jonathan Tobin at Commmentary makes the case that Americans did not want to repudiate the first black president. I think he has a point. Even Doug Wilder said that Obama hadn’t worked, but he was still going to vote for him.

    If that is the case, it could mean that Americans will repond to different ideas that are shown to work. That Sultan Knish post was very good. We have to slowly work to convince the people that we have the better solutions to problems and that these solutions are based on our experience-based ideas about how people and societies work. To some extent state governments are already doing this by reining in spending and capping public sector union benefits. But this is only part of the problem.

    As Dan said at Sultan Knish, we must look to the culture. How can a supposedly caring black president look at the pictures of Trayvon Martin at 13 and at 17 without asking what happened to him and how did it happen? How can a father of 2 girls associate with rappers who call other girls of the same age hoes and bitches? How can a devoted husband look at the vagina ad without feeling outrage that his Ivy-educated wife is so defined?

    One thing Romney understands is that we are a bottom-up culture. Our renewal must be bottom up via small local programs that put conservatives in close enough contact with the “victims” that they can see us as we are and see that our ideas are worth trying. We have to define ourselves.

    We must also find a way to tell the stories that inspire us through movies, TV shows, and books. Pehaps, set up libraries of books and DVDs for young people in churches, girls and boys club etc. This could allow us to show people as the whole imperfect though not evil people they are. We need to give the lower class parents something to hold onto as they try to instill virtues in their children. Today, all they see are the cool consume-oriented role models that make their children feel like losers. In fact, we have to be willing to be uncool ourselves.

    Finally, we have to stop idolizing the outspoken conservative flavor of the month types who pretend that their top-down government prohibitions will solve our problems. They simply scare people off. How many mothers of teen daughters want them to have an abortion? Not many, I suspect. What they want is a way to guide them through the tumultuous teens without getting pregnant and devaluated by the hook-up culture. How can we provide some guidance? How can we support parents whose kids won’t be Ivy League geniuses by showing them that we value anyone who uses his gifts for good ends?

    There is a lot that can be done from the bottom up, and by doing such things, we will give rise to new leaders. Don’t give up.

  84. sergey Says:

    “To declare Republic is not a problem. Real problem is where we can find enough republicans”.
    This is true everywhere and at any time. People are lazy and try to avoid hard work and responsibility. If they have hope that they can be fine without it, they will cling to this illusion until reality teaches them otherwise a hard way. Eventually the gods of political market will be defeated by gods of copybook headings, but only after life will became really miserable.

  85. T Says:

    I have been absent from this conversation, but I’m up now because I just can’t sleep. I vacillate between wanting to call this a lost battle and a lost war. I can say that I am profoundly saddened for our Republic and from the comments above I understand I am not alone.

    I have all along sang the song that our future has been in our DNA. While the popular vote shows an essential split (i.e., that seems to be at least half true) I am now forced to ask “does it really matter?” Have we been overwhelmed by the “takers”?

    Brad, my personal message to you is this: If you feel used in the sense that you compromised your principles at our urging essentially for naught, I ask that you not be too harsh in that judgement. First of all, the outcome is no different than had you voted for Johnson anyway (a small comfort, I know), and secondly, please don’t feel as though you were duped here. You were not.

    Most of us regulars here saw this election as a major tipping point. We still do. We saw Romney as a winnable candidate and the popular vote results evince that he does (did?) sit at that threshhold. Our anguish has more to do with what we believe these results say about our country’s future than a simple loss at the polls. To you, and those of your ilk who did hold their nose to vote for Romney we thank you for your help. We all, you and us, continue to share a common goal and now also a grievous wound. As we soldier on we wonder to what end and whether or not that wound is fatal. We shall see.

  86. Lorenz Gude Says:

    Indeed Mr. Sanders. I think the problem is that the model FDR and the post WW2 European governments built making the public sector an ever increasing percentage of the economy has reached its limits. We know what happens if you make the public sector 100% of the economy from Russia and China’s experience. I agree with Neo that America’s rush to catch up with Europe maxing out the public sector has happened because of the Gramscian march through our institutions which has put the American public in Marxist cloud of unknowing. An ideological prison of things that just aren’t so. That will not change, I believe, without collapse. Mark Steyn may be right that when it comes, it will come quickly. Then the real test will come. Look at Egypt – it is out of energy and food. America has both in abundance. It will take a while, but we’ll work it out. It is fascinating that a hick from Alaska may have seen it clearly in 2008 when she said “Drill, baby, drill!”.

  87. T Says:

    Expat @5:06 wrote:

    To some extent state governments are already doing this by reining in spending and capping public sector union benefits. But this is only part of the problem./blockquote cite=””>

    This is overlooked in our current grief, but Expat, you are correct, this is an encouraging thought.

    Charles Krauthammer also pointed out last evening that we have on the rise a host of conservative leaders preparing to do fiscal and political battle in the upcoming generation. Bobby Jindal, Kelly Ayotte, Niki Haley, Mia Love, Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz and the list goes on.

  88. neo-neocon Says:

    T: but the public has a split personality. The same people in Wisconsin who refused to get rid of Scott Walker voted for Obama’s re-election. They seem to want fiscal restraint in a governor, but can’t see its point in a president. And Mia Love was defeated in her bid for Congress.

  89. sergey Says:

    This is not split personality, it is economical illiteracy. They know that Governor cannot print money, but President can. And if they believe that printing money can solve financial problems, their behavior is perfectly rational.

  90. carl in atlanta Says:


    RE your post at 5:15 AM: I second your point that these results say much more about our country’s future than a simple loss at the polls.

    The Tide has finally overwhelmed us, and the only thing we can do now is head for higher ground and set to work around the edges.

    It surely feels like something important has died, doesn’t it? Right now I’m feeling infiltrated, invaded, violated.

  91. Rob Says:

    Melodramatic much?

  92. Steve Says:

    A constitutional convention may be the best way to fix the country:

    Maybe that should be the focus of the tea party and all freedom loving people. Two thirds of the states can call a convention and propose amendements. Three fourths must pass (38). Maybe we should start organizing mock conventions. I think 30 states have Republican governors. I don’t know how many have Republican controlled legislatures. Converting a few more may be feasible (a goal for the tea party?).

  93. kolnai Says:

    sergey –

    On the economic illiteracy front, now may be a good time for a return to Bryan Caplan’s deeply disturbing “The Myth of the Rational Voter.”

    He argued there that democracy has a “built in externality,” which is, roughly, this: by the nature of democracy, tens of millions of people will be voting, and in such a deluge there is no incentive for individuals to become informed, because deep down they sense that their votes don’t matter (if people really believed their votes mattered they’d be willing to pay quite a bit for the privilege, but they are not – e.g., poll taxes significantly reduce turnout).

    Now, the response to this is familiar. Yes, it is said, political ignorance is a reality, but through the “miracle of aggregation” individual irrationality produces collectively rational outcomes (sometimes called “the wisdom of crowds”). If 99% of the people are randomly stupid, but 1% of them are informed, then we’ll see a roughly equal split on either side, while the 1% tips the scale for the better side.

    Such is the dream.

    Caplan calls foul on this. Ignorance is not random – it is systemically skewed by ideology and emotions, and information is filtered accordingly. His concern is economics, and he goes on to show that the public is indeed non-randomly biased on that score – against market solutions, toward make-work (shovel ready) nostrums about prosperity, toward protectionism, and toward pessimism about current conditions.

    For all intents and purposes, people are systemically biased toward Obamanomics.

    Caplan then defines the “full price” of a vote as the per capita reduction in wealth caused by the policies supported, discounted by the probability that one’s vote flips he outcome. Thus, if someone supports a policy that actually costs $1,000 per capita but his vote only has a 0.1% of flipping the outcome, the full price of this vote is only $1. And Caplan’s argument boils down to the psychological fact that $1 is a small price to pay to gain the warm glow of supporting a cherished fallacy. As he puts it:

    “In real world settings, the price of ideological loyalty is close to zero. So we should expect people to satiate their demand for political delusion, to believe whatever makes them feel best. After all, it’s free.”

    There is no risk, in other words, in voting for a fantastically counterproductive policy, because individual votes are swallowed in the aggregate – whatever policy wins will win anyway, with or without one’s vote. If the other side wins, the moron gets to say, “I told you so;” if his side wins, he gets to say, “How bad things would have been otherwise!”

    Here’s the crux, then. Say there’s a thousand voters. If the side the voter chose in the hypothetical $1 scenario above loses, then he gets to boast of his virtue while everyone is spared the $1,000 per capita. But if his side wins, then the social cost is $1 million – all to satisfy emotions and biases worth as little as $501 (501 x $1). The toxic combination of imperturbable smugness, systemically irrational economic biases, and (therefore) extremely costly externalities adds up to oncoming disaster.

    In general, as the price of irrationality falls, the demand for it increases. In market-type situations, people will tend to behave or “demand” rationality (their own money and livelihood is DIRECTLY at stake), but in political situations, the demand for irrationality will skyrocket. Democracy politicizes an increasing number of situations by ingraining the economically illiterate biases of the people in government, thereby decreasing market-type situations across-the-board and purging the polity of incentives to be rational.

    Yesterday may have been the culmination of this process.

  94. Mr. Frank Says:

    Two things come to mind. Is the U.S. really a center right country? Secondly, Republicans are going to have to treat abortion the way Democrats treat gun control. Quit talking about it. Everybody knows how the parties feel about those topics. The Dems had enough sense to shut up about gun control.

  95. Mr. Frank Says:

    Something that mystifies me is how the states that have gone all in on the blue model (e.g.,California, Illinois, New York) are losing population, businesses, and income, but they continue to veer left.

    It’s like the little boy who was caught masturbating by his mother. She told him to stop or he would go blind. He asked if he could do it until he needed glasses.

  96. Charles Says:

    Too sad, too angry to write much . . .

    I can deal with not finding any work except short-term temp assignments for the last few years, I can deal with losing electricty for a few days, I can deal with my local stores being empty of fresh food for almost a week, I can deal with my gym being closed due to the storm, I can deal with long gas lines and rationing of gasoline, I can even deal with my beloved Jersey shore being ravished by the hurricane (it will rebuild and be better than ever – the fond memories of places gone will always be with me)

    But, this?! THIS!? Half the republic voted for Obama!? Not just once; but TWICE!

    This I cannot deal with. I have no more money (no work, remember) to support half the country, I have no more tolerance to put up with those who are rude (giving ol’ Hillary the finger, “get in their faces,” You didn’t built that, etc.), I have no more patience to deal with others who expect more from me than I have for myself.

    However, I would like to say “Thank you, Neo, Thank you.” You have given us a wonder place to read your thoughful and insightful writings. You have given all of us a place to voice our (tiny) opinions of events of the day (and non-events like jello, too), so, thank you!

  97. sergey Says:

    Mr. Frank, they continue to veer left exactly because they are loosing population, businesses and income, that is, right-leaning fraction of the whole population. This is a death spiral which we seen in Venezuela, for example: the more misery governments creates, the more demand there is for government-run help programs, which creates even more misery. A positive feed-back loop for government expansion. Leftism can be cured only by total economic and societal collapse. It is high time for red states to create a new Confederacy and secede, to cut away the rot. This time no war will follow. Self-reliable people will move to the land of free, and looters and moochers will stay to rot in dysfunctional states of their own creation.

  98. Rob Says:

    Oh stop it. Can we please “man up” here and stare reality in the face, if only for a moment? We lost the election because our candidate was an IMBECILE. Okay? If we work together to vet our candidates more carefully and do a little housecleaning within our own party, we can WIN. It’s not going to be easy, though, and if we continue to nominate dingbats like Romney we can just forget about ever occupying the White House again. Just FACE IT and enough of this ridiculous melodrama!!!

  99. ziontruth Says:

    Only one quote I can think of that sums it all up: “But I’m afraid it is happening, Marty—all of it.”

    I could hear the pounding of my heart as I first checked the news in the morning. When I saw it, the passage from the Rosh HaShanah service of Musaph echoed in my mind: “And on the states it will be said on it [Rosh HaShanah, the yearly day of judgment]: Which is for hunger, which is for well-feeding; Which is for the sword and which is for peace.”

    By every measure, Romney should have won. Or should I say, Obama should have lost, seeing his track record. But through a combination of information lock-in (sorry to break it to you, but the MSM dinosaur isn’t that extinct yet) and listening to the siren song of accepting government as one’s mother, father, ruler, protector and god, the American people has changed. The old faith in the values that made America great has been swept aside for Lennonian Imaginism.

    It is my hope that economic freedom in America will be the only one lost to the coming four years. Also I hope Obama’s foreign policy will be limited to withdrawal from world affairs (including withdrawal of all aid to Israel, which is something I and many of my fellow countrymen actually want), instead of taking the active interventionist role of appeasing the Muslim world through morsels of non-Muslim concessions (not limited to the Jewish State—pray for your co-religionists in the Islamic world, American Christians). Most of all, it is to be hoped that the remnant believers in America will manage to build sanctuary regions away from the Leftist federal Blob, where American values might be preserved until they grow strong enough to challenge the established order.

    Let us do what we can, and trust that God is landing short-term troubles on us only as the path to long-run joy. America bless God. Israel bless God. Then may He save us all, amen.

  100. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    Waking up early this morning, the proof is in the pudding.

    With the absolutely essential, eventually almost unanimous and enthusiastic aid of the MSM, Academia, the Entertainment Industry, the Religious and various other establishments, the “chattering classes,” various opinion makers, “thought leaders,” celebrities and public figures, the patient, decades-long, Marxist, Gramscian campaign of all-out, all-spectrum warfare against the foundation blocks, fundamental institutions, and values of Western civilization and its bourgeois societies–the United States chief among them–has born its fruit.

    The Left and Gramsci’s campaign has worked marvelously well at changing the character, knowledge, and proclivities of the majority of the American “audience.” So much so, that it has now become possible for the Left to sell to today’s contemporary audience a product that would have been seen for the eventual decline, loss of freedom, misery, and slavery that it was, and roundly rejected (as it was) by the American audience of just a few generations ago.

    There has been a sea-change in our population’s state of knowledge, a deliberate propagandizing, blinkering, and dumbing down, and a consequent change in the great mass of our citizen’s world-view, in what they know and see, it their proclivities, and attitudes, in what they will accept and reject; inevitable entropy at work, but greatly and deliberately helped along, steered, and accelerated by the Left, a degeneration and devolution, a decadence that has already and will have profound and extraordinarily deleterious effects, not only for us here in the U.S but, radiating outward, for the entire world.

    By this election choice, we stand revealed as no longer the great people we once were, and will likely never be again.

    Some things just cannot be reversed. We as a people truly cannot go “home“ again, because that home, as we knew it, the historical situation and conditions, the physical and mental structure that made it possible for that home to exist–as it was–no longer exist.

    Unfortunately, the result that the Left and Gramsci hoped, schemed, and diligently and patiently worked to bring about has come to pass, and there are now more ill-informed, not very smart people who are easily manipulated than there are well-informed, inner-directed, smart people, now far less reliance on religion and on Judeo-Christian principles and the morality, ethical structure, and behavior that flows from them, now less hardness and grit, now more softness and self-absorption, now more people focused on themselves and their immediate wants, than people focused on the long view and on the needs of our country, now more people interested in letting others do the work than in self-sufficiency, and doing the hard work themselves, now more “takers” than ”makers”; as a nation we have become unsure of our principles, focused on our base needs, and on shiny things—look, a squirrel.

    We as a nation have been given a choice, and we have betrayed our Heritage and failed the test.

    Also unfortunately, those who have some clarity and vision will now have to suffer–along with all the rest–the consequences of the lemming-like actions of those with little knowledge, no clarity, and no vision, and there is no escape, nowhere else to go, we are it.

    Our path as a nation has now, very likely, irrevocably changed—there will now not be any going back to what we once were–and if we as a people should, somehow, reclaim our Heritage, re-emerge somewhat victorious, decades down the road, we will have been changed by the experience, and we will be a different, likely a far different and battered America.

    I see disunity, economic collapse, violence, possible disintegration of the United States into smaller aggregations of Red vs. Blue States, and perhaps even Civil War in our future.

    But, as our immediate reward for collective stupidity and cluelessness, we are all going to suffer in a myriad of very unpleasant ways. We are all—except, of course, for the new Leftist Nomenklatura–going to get to very intimately know what the misery and pain, that the ten or so generations here before us in America succeeded in enduring and sheltering us from by their incredible stoicism, grit, sacrifices and hard work, really is.

  101. Dan Says:

    I’m now seriously thinking mormonism is the reason Romney lost.

    The overall vote was 11% less than the last presidential election. The Obama turnout was depressed, but the Romney turnout seemed energized, although wasn’t enough.

    My non-American wife said that it was obvious Romney would lose because of he was Mormon. I thought this was garbage until after the election. It made more sense to me then. She said Americans are too polite to say so, but she would never vote for a Mormon because they go door to door and harrass people, which is enough for her to believe that they’d put their religion ahead of all else even if they were president.

    She thinks I’m wrong minded for thinking other people vote for philosophical ideals or other high minded ideals that I always talk about.

    People voted with their stupid hearts and elected to stay home and not vote for the weirdo evangelist.

    I think she’s correct now.

  102. physicsguy Says:

    Buy more ammo. That’s about all I have. I spent the last few hours trying to figure a way to move to Texas yet maintain an income. I’m locked into a job that I can’t get out of due to my age, etc. and I have two daughters not on their own yet. If I was not in such a situation I would definitely find a way to get to one of those places texexec talks about. I see the country splitting apart in two more years.

    Of course, if that happens, then someone like China, Russsia, etc swoops in and fills the vacuum. I really don’t see much light ahead in this tunnel. I guess Pat said it more succinctly than I just did: the US just committed suicide.

    Sorry, just needed to vent.

  103. roc scssrs Says:

    I’ll be on Social Security soon. A check in the mail from the government, free health care, and now legal pot. What’s not to like?

    Seriously, I’m glad I never had kids.

    I want to echo Charles: Thanks, Neo, for all your work.

  104. beverly Says:

    Looks like the Politician won’t save us.

    We’ll have to save ourselves. Got a long hard slog ahead.

    History won’t let us off the hook after all (nor will the Gods of the Copybook Headings, as our enemies, the International Left, will find).

    They’ve been on a war footing with the free peoples for the last century; we’ve been playing badminton. Mostly.

  105. texexec Says:

    ” If I was not in such a situation I would definitely find a way to get to one of those places texexec talks about. I see the country splitting apart in two more years. ”

    physicsguy…you and others who think like you do will be welcomed here with open arms. We already have a couple in our neighborhood who moved here from California last year. They proudly say they have moved to “The Republic of Texas”.

  106. thomass Says:

    kolnai Says:

    “So the question is: How do we turn the conservative disadvantage into an advantage without selling our souls or becoming Tories? How do we fight like leftists, and effectively, while remaining what we are?”

    I guess keep in mind we have nowhere else to go. The US was the last mostly free western county.


    […] MORNING GOD & CAESAR EDITION Published November 7, 2012 Anno Domini 2004 and 2012 – […]

  108. Rob Says:

    Ridiculous. Listen to yourselves. Ever heard of a little thing called “personal responsibility”? We lost the election because our candidate sucked. Period. We nominated a moron and guess what….he lost. Just accept that, resolve not to make the same mistake again and move on. Because let me tell you, where the future of the Republican party is concerned, I’m much more worried by the whiny, hyperbolic comments I’m reading here than by any election defeat. Yes, yes, by all means buy guns or bury your money is a hole if you must, but don’t nominate any more idiots for president and you’ll start to see some real, positive results.

  109. Papa Dan Says:

    We lost to bread (food stamps and freebies) and circuses (the “reality TV” Kardashian, Lohan’s, etc). Our culture is gangsta rap and competing looting bounties on twitter. We have forgotten our founding principals because we have come to believe that American exceptionalism was always just thinly disguised racism. Many of the people who voted for Obama gave it no more thought than who will win on Monday Night Football.

  110. Rob Says:

    We lost to a party that is better organized than our own, a party that will not let cronyism and petty, internal politics get in the way of nominating a GOOD, INTELLIGENT candidate. Blame MTV or gangsta rap if you want to. Whatever. The true blame lies right here with US.

  111. texexec Says:

    “Ridiculous. Listen to yourselves. Ever heard of a little thing called “personal responsibility”? We lost the election because our candidate sucked.”

    No, Rob…we lost the election because the American electorate sucks. Anyone who calls Romney an idiot has no ability to perceive quality, intelligence, competence, and character in a man. And is likely to express his opinions in inappropriate and obnoxious terms.

  112. holmes Says:

    Neo, your blog will be one of the few political blogs that I still read. I think you and Instapundit will be enough. If anyone has one more that’s just really worthwhile reading, let me know. Otherwise, I’m out. I’m done. I’m not fighting the good fight. This is a very sober-minded decision. It’s rational, not irrational, despair. I’d like to live my life, which will, largely, be unaffacted by the shifts that take place. My future kids and their kids are in trouble, but there is not much I can do for them except show love. So that’s what I shall do.

  113. physicsguy Says:

    Rob: BS! It’s a statement on the current culture/and the electorate. The GOP could have nominated Lincoln, or even reincarnated Reagan, and he would have lost.

    I work in one those Gramscian insititutions: academia, and believe me, there are a large percentage of the faculty whose stated goal for the last 20 years is indoctrination, not education. Take a look at any English department course listings, or the “disposition” criteria that has been imposed on anyone wishing to teach in elementary ed or secondary ed. Add to that the Pravda media and the entertainment industry. They have been working to control the minds of the population for the 20 years and their efforts are bearing fruit.

    Many parents have abdicated responsibility for teaching their children American values so the left has taken that over. It doesn’t take much effort. My wife and I didn’t preach conservatism to our kids, we just made sure to set an example. My oldest daughter, a freshman in college, just texted me about being depressed about the election in which she cast her first vote for Romney. BTW, we never discussed the election; she made up her own mind. However, even though she is at a slightly more traditional college, she is still a true minority student I suspect with regard to her beliefs.

    If the blame lies anywhere, it’s that we let the left quietly slip in and undermine our basic foundations.

  114. Artfldgr Says:

    Good morning Tovarish!!!! 🙂

    NOW we find out what deal he worked out with the conduit Medvedev…

    He will now have time to create the local councils that will control every day life. That and the fact that equal pay for equal work has now been voted in as well.

    Equal Work Equal Pay Pamplet

    and Fabian tract by Miss B L Hutchins of the Fabian Women’s Group:
    ‘The working life of women’, 1911

    to clue you in why the state will be in your life and on you like white on rice:
    The Personal Is Political

    I prefer to call even this aspect “political therapy” as opposed to personal therapy. The most important is getting rid of self-blame. Can you imagine what would happen if women, blacks, and workers (my definition of worker is anyone who has to work for a living as opposed to those who don’t. All women are workers) would-stop blaming ourselves for our sad situations? It seems to me the whole country needs that kind of political therapy. That is what the black movement is doing in its own way. We shall do it in ours. We are only starting to stop blaming ourselves. We also feel like we are thinking for ourselves for the first time in our lives. As the cartoon in Lilith puts it, “I’m changing. My mind is growing muscles.” Those who believe that Marx, Lenin, Engels, Mao, and Ho have the only and last “good word” on the subject and that women have nothing more to add will, of course, find these groups a waste of time.

    From then on personal responsibility was dead
    and the end of the republic became a fait accompli. the issue was never IF, it was only WHEN as nothing stopped it. after all, if the target of her blame tried, it would prove their point. they turned on their mates, and now are writing articles as to the largest growing single group – women 45-64 who are single and barren.

    you can trace it back to this one essay that became a major thing… if you complete her sentence. can you imagine if we, the Volk, stopped blaming ourselves (and started blaming the scapegoats)…

    just think… we waited since 1970:
    The paper, “The Personal Is Political,” was originally published in Notes from the Second Year: Women’s Liberation in 1970 and was widely reprinted and passed around the Movement and beyond in the next several years. I didn’t know just how much it had gotten around until I did a Google search and found it being discussed in many different languages.

    Enjoy what was made that only they could unmake.
    Recognizing the need to fight male supremacy as a movement instead of blaming the individual woman for her oppression was where the Pro-Woman Line came in. It challenged the old anti-woman line that used spiritual, psychological, metaphysical, and pseudo-historical explanations for women’s oppression with a real, materialist analysis for why women do what we do. (By materialist, I mean in the Marxist materialist (based in reality) sense, not in the “desire for consumer goods” sense.) Taking the position that “women are messed over, not messed up” took the focus off individual struggle and put it on group or class struggle, exposing the necessity for an independent WLM to deal with male supremacy.

    From that point on, the republicans became the party of white men (which the dems used to be) and women and what they were calling the “brown nation” during this election cycle, all focused on one scapegoat. the same as in 1939 Germany, and pogrom Russia…

    the women could beat up their mates to make it, but without their mates who wont fight back, how will they control or change what they made? its easy to beat up people who want to love you, its a whole other thing to do it to people who couldn’t care if your dead, and want you to work for them, not your family.


    its a done deal now
    everyone will scramble to join so as not to be part of the scapegoats fate. regardless of what companies believed, they complied with the new conditions. there was no choice, as the disfavor is enough to end the company and so all that they work and have.

    so now, either you join, or the fickle finger of collective fate and social engineering will cause you to wither on the vine.

    what you will find is that people will give lipservice but now their actions will fall in to line!

    the fine detail will now be put in place not prevented. and i can tell you exactly how it will work!
    Obama signs new Executive Order expanding Homeland Security mission in the U.S.

    The purpose of this order is to maximize the Federal Government’s ability to develop local partnerships in the United States to support homeland security priorities. Partnerships are collaborative working relationships in which the goals, structure, and roles and responsibilities of the relationships are mutually determined.

    There is established a White House Homeland Security Partnership Council (Council) to foster local partnerships — between the Federal Government and the private sector, nongovernmental organizations, foundations, community-based organizations, and State, local, tribal, and territorial government and law enforcement — to address homeland security challenges.

    now the structures that we argued were not in place so we are safe, are now in place. the current office holder has the power now to cause great local fear as to what and how to act.

    ie. they have power to terrorize you legally to get you to comply locally.

    ie. voice the wrong opinion, and the local council will put you on the no fly list, for which there is no habeus corpus to appeal and remove that. you become a prisoner of the state and lose your right to travel and meet with whomever you wish.

    ]the Council (soviets) will have supreme powers outside of law, that are just as bad as what a police officer can do in terms of how the path of your life changes.

    the council can call you to appear so often you lose your job or company. what right would you have to stop that? without a law that forces companies to retain you, the council has power over your economic life, health outcomes, etc.

    anyone here want to explain to me how this will not vest total control in the state in a very short order?

    WAIT till you guys see the demographic break down of who voted what.

    your going to find that the constituency of the the personal is political will be the biggest group – which is why they won

    They now have the election, and the internal army as big and will be as well funded as the military (which Soros foundation wants to defund to the tune of a trillion to pay for the social stuff – but even thats not enough)

  115. Rob Says:

    This election didn’t teach us anything we didn’t already know about the current state of our culture and electorate. We had the “facts” going into it and went with a candidate who did not have what it took to win. That really is the long and short of it. You can demonize the American voter all you want. In a few days the Kool-Aid will wear off and you’ll realize that Romney holds very few positions for more than 20 minutes, can only rarely communicate a coherent message and….well, there’s just not a lot of mental “horsepower” there. But what’s done is done. There’s no point crying about the past. We have to look ahead now and resolve to do better. Consoling ourselves by representing the American voter as a fool and a “gangsta” isn’t going to make it easier to win the White House in 2016.

  116. holmes Says:

    Rob- he has a JD/MBA from Harvard from a time where that meant something. He’s not dumb and you look like a child for saying so. Politically inept maybe, but that is not a trait that is inherent to smart people.

  117. T Says:

    Kolnai @ 7:14 AM wrote: “There is no risk, in other words, in voting for a fantastically counterproductive policy, because individual votes are swallowed in the aggregate – whatever policy wins will win anyway, with or without one’s vote.”

    Sergey @ 8:13 Am wrote: “Leftism can be cured only by total economic and societal collapse.”

    Sounds like the arguments we’ve been hearing from the gary Johnson supporters. Perhaps it is time.

  118. Charles Says:

    Rob – THREE times you have posted a comment that did nothing but call Romney names. Okay, so, you think he is an idiot. How about YOU man up and prove it, instead of just calling him names, put some meat behind those comments of yours. Tell us why you think he is an idiot.

    You really are someone who likes to kick folks when they are down.

    There is a word for that – coward! (or Democrat)

  119. expat Says:

    Romney would have been a fine person to get competent people to run and downsize the Fed. You obviously don’t know what class and competence are.

    Michael Barone today talks about his terribly failed prognosis. He also mentions the 1st black president issue. Does anyone think that a president like Jimmy Carter would have been re-elected? Anna Wintour would have been begging Romney to let her host a fundraiser, and the black clerics who oppose gay marriage would not have held their nose while they pulled the lever for Jimmy. And the young voters would have been drinking in a college bar somewhere. Tell me how a Bachmann, Cain, Santorum, or Gingrich would have appealed to these voters

  120. Mrs Whatsit Says:

    It’s people like Rob who make me think there is simply no point in trying to reach anyone with anything rational any more. He is convinced that name-calling is equal to reasoning. He calls Romney names and thinks he’s proven something about Romney, then calls Neo and the rest of us names for disagreeing with him, and thinks he’s proven something about us — and is entirely incapable of understanding that he has proven nothing about anyone but himself. He’s a perfect example of what’s wrong with the American electorate — our side, unfortunately, just as thoroughly as theirs.

  121. Rob Says:

    Fine. When (if) some of you get serious about promoting a conservative agenda in this country, we’ll compare notes at that time. Until then, enjoy your orgy of self-pity.

  122. Papa Dan Says:

    “Consoling ourselves by representing the American voter as a fool and a “gangsta” isn’t going to make it easier to win the White House in 2016.”

    Rob, something like 14 million people sat out the election for one reason or another. Was it an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good? Was is too many on the right sitting this one out because we didn’t get Newt or Sarah? If so, who’s being delusional?

  123. Artfldgr Says:

    remember this?
    T Says:
    October 29th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
    As for myself, I have seen an incredible amount of anecdotal evidence that, by itself, doesn’t mean much, but when taken as a whole also repudiates the Obama fait accompli.

    and we sang the same song to the same end this time too… no?

    and the same group that votes in fascism and communism all around the world did it here too. funny they didnt change…

    and remember this?

    Artfldgr Says:
    November 1st, 2011 at 2:02 pm
    nothing us males can do…
    if we do, we are pigs and so on
    if we dont, the women lose..

    ie… the end result is a fait accompli unless women change their minds in time.

    and demographically, its too late..

    even if this election didnt turn out this way, the demogrpahic switch and hatred of the volk who will not blame themselves since 1970, will insure they collectively team up to destroy the scapegoats presented to them singularly for the past 40 plus years.

    that problem cant even be recognized and dealt with, so the end result is a fait accompli, as there are not enough of the scapegoats to outvote the hatred (given that the mates of the scapegoats are against them, except for a few).

    all the ther highfaluting arguments were irrelevant and made so by this combination of stuff… and i said, if something wasn’t done about that stuff, then there was no way to change the end result.

    wishful thinking was not refutation.
    nor was telling me i was being negative.

    experience trumped the imagination but lost
    as ignorance trumps intelligence when merit is reformed to equal skin color and gender

    the supreme court will be stacked with more people like sotomayor who believe race and gender give her superiority.

    the breatings, like the guy yesterday that was attacked by 8 brown volk and had his head crushed, will keep going on as holder and others will not prosecute Volk for attacking oppressors (that’s the whole point of social justice)

    with governors issuing EO that change election parameters, and no one questions it, fights it, etc. we now have a feudal state… an oligharcy, and the people who care do not have enough power to prevent anything.

    The useful idiots that made this dont have power either, they gave it to the other to get what they wanted. so now, they got what they wanted, and so have no power.

    wasnt that the exchange agreement?
    feminists and race groups give up their power to the collective which adds it together and creates a “majority coalition” of power, and then usurps the rights of the non volk, and rewards the equal volk with unequal privilege.

    now. tell me how the Volk get their power back that they traded away and completed the deal over.

  124. Bob from Virginia Says:

    Kolnai, thanks for your exposition on “The Myth of the Rational Voter”. I have been looking for a long time for an explanation on why non-traumatized societies fall for nonsensical magicians like Obama. I’m going to order “Rational Voter” asap. BTW, that thesis supports my proposed cure, let the system fail to the point the irrational voter experiences pain, that way at least a few will start to learn.

    Here’s a story, early last evening my daughter in the Coast Guard called me in a panic because she was afraid Obama would win. Apparently they are expecting all sorts of negative repercussions due to his policies.

    And a question, George Will, Bernard Goldberg and almost all the pollsters did not predict what happened last night. I wonder how many could be so wrong? All their predictions seemed rational.

  125. physicsguy Says:

    While we were being distracted by Rob, Art slipped in with an very cogent analysis of where we are heading. I think what Art is saying is spot-on.

    How do we send the warning out to everyone else so they can be on the lookout for what BHO and the Dems are planning?

  126. Rob Says:

    “You really are someone who likes to kick folks when they are down.”

    I never missed an opportunity to “kick” Romney when he was “up” and if more of you had listened to me we might be saying “Goodbye” to Obama in a couple of months.

  127. Artfldgr Says:

    Ridiculous. Listen to yourselves. Ever heard of a little thing called “personal responsibility”?

    YES… but you never read the feminist tract i referenced above which promises the Volk freedom from self blame and so freedom from responsibility – all by putting the weight on the one volk, and the party of the white man…

    funny… but your right…
    but it made no difference because no one neutralized the ideas from that article in 1970 that dominates the group and their thinking.

    and i said, you dont do that, you have no effect.

    the call to abandons personal responsibility trumps the call to work hard for losers to gain back personal responsibility, just as ignorance trumps knowing, when it wont concede.

    Richard Dawkins had a great time debating himself about why there is no god, and he wrote out and ignored and didnt include the huge more thoughtful work that came before him, as they won the argument, and if he did, he would lose. so he left them out.

    the majority here pulled a dawkins, and had a great time debating stuff from the ether, and left out the history and the key things that would actually have to be affected to actually accomplish more than saying la la la in a room with an echo with a lot of other people.

    its that simple…

    the idea that personal responsibility is bad for women and minorities has lived and established itself for 45 or so years.

    did you all think that ignoring it would work?

    ever hear something called precendent and if precendent is not turned over, what happens?

    it remains as the guide to all action. no?

    so, the precedent was for all women as a political group to cure themselves and to stop blaming themselves and start blaming their men, to join race groups and for them to do the same, to the one designated group.

    you see… as long as there is a cow for the ticks to latch on to, their hatred wont let them see that when the cow is dead, then what?

    the winning side through that one paper magnified into a DOCTRINE of action, has dismantled the state by bribing women (and minorities. but women are the matching number that tips the scales against their mates)

    once it was normal for women t rationalize a bad outcome for their children to acquire more for themselves than their mates could provide, including respect that mattered (from strangers reinforcing the behavior positively. you know, how you train dogs, right?). being hypergamous, the state was the best ‘catch’.

    if your willing to put your kid with a minimum wage person and believe that that person is better than you for your kid, why would you care if you put your children in debt and slavery as long as you got your perks?

    what grandmom found abbhorrent, modern liberated woman embraces.

    and modern women want the work and state to be like their homes… safe, controlled, protected, etc… as if the whole was a family.

    however matriarchies are very lawless violent places with low economics and high poverty and women live in fear.

    note how we went from a society in which crime was so low, we didn’t bother keeping real records!!! where a woman could window shop walking down the sdtreet. now we have gates, bars, and violent beatings given by groups of liberated people in broad daylight.

    hows that any different than a volk in 1933 beating up a scapegoat?

    NOTHING was done to change the personal responsiblity thing… in fact, fluke was working that same personal is political angle wanting the state to pay for her…

    with a tap the diamond could have been split
    but banging heads against it did not break it.

  128. texexec Says:

    “I never missed an opportunity to “kick” Romney when he was “up” and if more of you had listened to me we might be saying “Goodbye” to Obama in a couple of months.”

    That’s just woulda, coulda, shoulda baloney. If I had sold S&P futures short yesterday, I’d be richer today also.

  129. Rob Says:

    “If I had sold S&P futures short yesterday, I’d be richer today also.”

    Well, in that case it’s a pity you didn’t sell them short.

  130. Occam's Beard Says:

    Something that mystifies me is how the states that have gone all in on the blue model (e.g.,California, Illinois, New York) are losing population, businesses, and income, but they continue to veer left.

    Easy – the idiots that infest California, at least, believe that the problem is that the state hasn’t gone far enough left. Incredible, but true. If only we went further left, the “reasoning” goes, everything would be fine.


  131. Wolla Dalbo Says:

    In many ways this election was the triumph of flash over substance, indolence over hard work.

    Romney was a good and honorable man, with a long history of accomplishment. If his Mormanism played any role in his election loss, I think it was in the sense that many who voted for Obama—having lost or rejected their own faiths—resented a candidate who had “clung” to and lived his.

    Those who voted for Obama could not look reality straight in the face, they wanted to be lied to, and they were. They were tired of being Americans, and now wanted to “lead from behind,” not looking far enough ahead —boy, it’s really hard to do so–to realize all the bad things that usually happen to those who take such a posture, and how soon they are shoved off the world stage.

    Romney was offering a reasonable set of proposals and a lot of hard work, flim-flam man Obama–a man of no accomplishment, as amply and very concretely demonstrated in practical terms these last four years–was offering a fantasy world, learned helplessness, and more free stuff; the fetid and sour fruits of Socialism. Moreover, TV and sitcoms, movies, and novels have apparently taught most of us to value flash, aggression, and trash talk above the supposedly “booring,” sober reality of struggles against all sorts of seemingly intractable problems—man, it’s hard to understand these things–that Romney was offering.

    In effect, Obama said, “just lay back and enjoy the
    experience, don’t worry, I’ll take care of you.”

  132. texexec Says:

    “Well, in that case it’s a pity you didn’t sell them short.”

    Did you? Do you even know what S&P futures are?

  133. Artfldgr Says:

    We lost the election because our candidate sucked. Period.

    no… we lost because the people stopped picking candidates when parties took over that job. this allows parties to put up people who will lsse, play good cop bad cop, and the politicos collude with business atgianst the people.

    once we could not decide who to vote for, we could not decide who would win. i explained this years ago. (after all i have been aware of all this since before 1980… ergo i know those documents to read).

    Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.
    Soren Kierkegaard

    The only source of knowledge is experience.
    Albert Einstein

    we quote him a lot on crazy, but not on that. besides, if we followed that, the people who didnt know, would bow out and listen as they know to do so. THAT Would also be a form of personal responsibility.

    but how can a person who doesnt know be equal to those that do know? they refuse to take the back seat to experience, inflate their ideas to be equal with knowing (which they arent), and then no one leads as the whole of the group mills about in contradictory morass of imagination, belief and little grounding in fact. (in fact, the majority who don’t know, attack the minority that do. ergo tin hatters is what we know, do we know what tin hatters call them? )

    people been warning and explaining and showing how and what and why and what papers. but we are too lazy to take personal responsiblity and read the required stuff so we KNOW, and not imagine and pretend thats knowing

    like cargo cultists who pretend to know the substance from the surface, but only present surface as they cant make up substance!!!!

    Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t.
    Pete Seeger

    now, experience will teach us as i said it would

    we got the test first, now the lesson comes!!!!

    we did not want to learn our lessons first, so we would know what to choose, and what to oppose and what their word games mean.

    even the rebels in star wars had a blue print for the deathstar… they didnt wing it blindly throwing themselves at the structure with no desire to know how it worked, what was its weaknesses, and so on…

    in fact.. most really underestimated the opposition because they paid attention to the fools dancing in the street, and insulted a Harvard education, and more and more.

    i dont need to study, and know and by knowing all meet on the same page and be effective. we can wing it and win..

    dont the hero always win by a narrow margin at the last minute?

    by the way, as an EMT i learned that that is not real or true.. in real life the hero that gets that close is usually not called a hero any more, they are called a victim…

  134. Artfldgr Says:

    Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again.
    Andre Gide

    Experience – the wisdom that enables us to recognise in an undesirable old acquaintance the folly that we have already embraced.
    Ambrose Bierce

    boy was this an experience to remember!

  135. Mr. Frank Says:

    Those of you who think that total collapse brings about positive change should look at Detroit.

  136. kolnai Says:

    T –

    That quote was indeed something some Johnson supporters used to justify their vote, but Caplan was using it to argue against (universal franchise) democracy. He advocates measures to decrease turnout among those he thinks have been proven to be incapable of sound economic thinking (mainly poor and uneducated people), so that the more educated can swamp the morons.

    Needless to say, that part of his argument I find completely inadequate, data be damned. Educated people may state certain things on surveys, but then they already know what the “correct” answers are. Even Krugman would show up as an enlightened one on Caplan’s metrics, and he would probably vote for Hugo Chavez. Restricting the vote to the Krugmans of the world would not make a lick of difference, and indeed may take us from our own tacit Chavez (Obama) to an explicit one, and then probably into Lenin and Stalin territory.

    And then we won’t have to worry about democracy anymore.

    Still, I’m as skeptical of democracy, rightly understood (as opposed to republicanism, which is constitutional and indirect), as Caplan is. I too support rolling back democracy, simply because increasing the costs of voting is likely to make people at least marginally more inclined to take their votes seriously. That being said, such measure aren’t likely to affect anything all that much. Oh well. We reap what we sow.

    Caplan’s argument is very clever (for those who read him, you know what I mean – he’s a very clever fellow, even if he’s insane 50% of the time). He’s basically taking the standard economic argument about externalities (individual driver, aggregate pollution, etc.) and applying it to voting (individual voter, collective madness). The analogy is easy to complete: democratic voting is like political global warming, each little CO2 particle emitted into a sticky, feedbacky atmosphere that, filled with other polluting votes, spirals into apocalypse.

    Except political global warming (PGW) is real, of course.

    Anyway, just as economists say the solution to negative externalities like pollution is to raise the price of polluting for individual polluters (hence the idea of a gas tax), Caplan says, “Fair enough, but the same logic implies we should raise the price of voting – perhaps, when we get down to it, the very worst form of pollution.”

    He makes mischief.

  137. Occam's Beard Says:

    I’m going to stand down from reading the news, at least for a while, perhaps permanently. Seeing what’s happening, and hearing the bleatings of complete idiots gushing about their “free pho’s” and “free birth control” and “the rich” (defined as someone who makes more than they do) paying their “fair share” pushes me toward a murderous rage at their stupidity.

    In particular, we need to clean out the media – they are the driver of the problem, and heavily Communist-infested, as we saw when the curtain was lifted on JournoList.

    I’m just sick about this. I am so naive I really thought it’d be a blow out for Romney. I can’t believe people voted for Obama again, after all we know about him.

    Me too, on all counts.

    It’s finished, the great American experiment. As someone else already commented here, Alexis de Tocqueville had it right: “The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”

    It’s finished.

    Yep. I’m afraid so. I actually feel my patriotism ebbing. If these are the dumb asses we have here, then we deserve the suffering that we’re going to get. If we ever get the chance to build America 2.0, we need to restrict the franchise severely.

    I hope everyone who voted for Obama gets hurt real bad for what they have done.

    God help me, but I do too.

  138. Occam's Beard Says:

    BTW we won’t have to wait long for the unpleasantness to start. Sequestarian starts in a few weeks. I wonder whether any of his supporters will notice.

    I’ve got a scarier thought: Iran.

  139. cornflou Says:

    Occam’s Beard said

    “If we ever get the chance to build America 2.0, we need to restrict the franchise severely.”

    I’m amazed to read this, because people can turn violent upon hearing this sentiment expressed. Still, during the last few years, I’ve also wondered whether this is possible. Clearly, something needs to be done to prevent poisoning the republic by people voting themselves bribes.

    How to start? A constitutional amendment that would deny voting privileges to all government employees? Everything I consider sounds like sheer fantasy. In more ways than one, I’m still a little hung over from last night, and feel like I’m grasping at straws, but this is a time for a little politically creative thinking, not melodrama.

  140. Occam's Beard Says:

    How to start?

    If you don’t pay taxes, or have served in the military (i.e., contributed to the nation in cash or in kind), you don’t vote.

  141. Steve Says:

    cornflou, there is no way Congress and the Senate will reform itself but the constitution does have another mechanism for proposing amendments: an Article V convention. 2/3 states are required to call the convention. Amendments pass if they are approved by 3/4 of states. There are many more red states than blue states. I heard Arkansas now has a Republican House and Senate (first time since Reconstruction) and the same may be true for LA and WI. Maybe enough to call the convention?

  142. cornflour Says:

    Occam’s Beard said

    “If you don’t pay taxes, or have served in the military (i.e., contributed to the nation in cash or in kind), you don’t vote.”

    I’d vote for that. Neo went to law school. So … write it up as a bill for the House of Representatives. Find a sponsor for the bill. See how they vote.

    Is this insane? I’m too hung over to tell.

  143. neo-neocon Says:

    kolnai: thanks for providing that information from Caplan. Fascinating.

    I have long thought there may be some sort of inevitable spiral going on.

  144. physicsguy Says:


    You are reinventing the wheel in some sense, as the Constitution originally left voter determination to states, and many of them restricted it to landowners. Which, I guess, in modern terms would be those who pay property taxes. Universal sufferage may have been the start of all this, as then anyone could vote to pick someone else’s pocket.

  145. Steve D Says:

    ‘Yes, Steve D I thought America would be different.’

    The problem is human psychology. Americans have for too long thought of themselves as exceptional as if it was some built in trait. It isn’t. It was all based on the environment we found ourselves in. We have been dragging along on the coat tails of the Founding Fathers and the system they devised without any real understanding of reasons for their achievement.

    It was unprecedented in history – but their political revolution went down only so far. There was no follow up moral revolution and human psychology doesn’t change over time. Most people do not want freedom and neither do most Americans.

    As the fall of Rome did, the historical reverberations of this election will echo for centuries.

    ‘I’ve got a scarier thought: Iran’

    The real problem is China. They’ve quadrupled their military spending and they aren’t doing it for fun.

  146. neo-neocon Says:

    cornflour: yes, somewhat insane. No chance of passing.

  147. neo-neocon Says:

    Steve D: Americans were exceptional. Their descendents are not.

  148. kolnai Says:

    Occam –

    I have been considering dropping out of caring about the news myself. Can’t really describe it, but there’s this empty, exhausted feeling. Like this is the end of the line. Finished. I’ve got nothing left, and I’ve got a life to live. I’m not going to let this coalition of the aggressively stupid and their socialist lords rob it from me by allowing them to command my daily attention, my heart rate, and my sanity. All I can do is throw my hands up and snarl, “To hell with you all.”

    Future victories will be alright, should they occur, but they’ll only be postscripts to a book that will soon slam shut. Once the Supreme Court goes, as it will, it’s fascism time regardless of who’s President. No more First Amendment. No more Second Amendment. The death of the Constitution that was just under the surface of the Roberts opinion in the Obamacare case will become explicit.

    We will never pass another budget. The Presidency will be a dictatorial office when Obama is through with it, insulated by a socialist bureaucracy rendering future Republican dictators completely ineffective. What Herodotus called “the laws of the Persians and the Medes” – a euphemism for the diktats of the Kings and their minions, incomprehensible to the subject masses, and often to the rulers themselves – will be the only law of the land.

    In Goethe’s “Faust,” the titular character’s deal with devil was preceded by a mad quest for knowledge. He confronted the cosmos in its awesome, mysterious glory and realized that he could not control it or penetrate its enigmas. In terror, he retreats back to a demonic sensualism, seeking satisfaction through indulgence of the senses, cutting his deal with Mephisto stipulating that the devil would help him in his quest if only Faust agreed to be his servant should he find a pleasure so sublime as to lead him to cry,

    “Linger moment, you are so beautiful.”

    After many missteps and tragedies, Faust finally decides that he will build tremendous dikes against the sea to clear fresh land for the founding of a new, perfect state. As this utopian project nears completion, he hears digging and imagines that his conjured workers are erecting the last walls. In his delirium, he has a glorious vision of his perfect society, and proclaims that, at last, he can say,

    “Linger moment, you are so beautiful.”

    It turned out that the workers were digging his grave. Faust dies and his soul is claimed by the devil. Angels intervene and save his soul.

    We have “gone Faust,” scared by the harsh realities of life, plunged by our fear and insecurity into the senseless pursuit of sensual gratification, and cutting a deal with the devil ultimately to build a utopia – fantasies of utopia being the only grand vision compatible with our megalomania.

    Last night, we listened to the digging and thought we heard the last walls going up, and told the moment to linger. But it was us, digging our own graves. The devil claims his part. I very much doubt the angels will intervene in the end.

  149. kolnai Says:

    Hey neo –

    I noticed no new posts today yet. You holding up ok?

    I’m just guessing here, based on what I might do if I ran a blog like this, but I figured you might not want to put up the “Obama Won” post because then, like a sudden death that takes a few days or weeks to sink in, it might at that moment become all too real.

  150. Occam's Beard Says:

    You are reinventing the wheel in some sense, as the Constitution originally left voter determination to states, and many of them restricted it to landowners. Which, I guess, in modern terms would be those who pay property taxes. Universal sufferage may have been the start of all this, as then anyone could vote to pick someone else’s pocket.

    The Founding Fathers were wise. We were stupid. If someone doesn’t have the judgment to manage his own affairs properly, why would he have the judgment to render a sound opinion on the nation’s affairs?

  151. davisbr Says:

    The only thing I’m reading today that’s making historically lucid contextual sense of the election is artfldgr.

    Artful Dodger. Dickens. quote: …The nickname “Artful Dodger” is still commonly used to refer to someone who is good at avoiding responsibility or the consequences of his or her action.

    Or by someone who is using it as a pun (always the highest form of humour) because his arguments refer to a country, a polity – or perhaps a civilization – that is “avoiding responsibility or the consequences of their action”.

    Well met, artfldgr. Well met indeed.

    I would share the words I sent to my brother this morning:

    Steve –

    In re: my email “Well …that sucks”. No, I don’t see the “bright side” as being that “at least he can’t run again”, baby bro’.

    Slightly – very slightly – more than half of the voters in this country have just demonstrated that they cannot “do” math. That they are utterly clueless about the basics of economic reality. They truly think that 2+2 = …well, something other than 4.

    This is the last presidential term of my still productive and working-adult life. And I personally needed a business friendly administration over the next few years.

    So I’m afraid I don’t see much of a “bright side” to this being “the last time he can run”. We have re-elected a disaster of historical proportions for the future of the Republic.

    What I see is that the voters of the US have become the same as those of California.

    The final straw for me, the real reason I decided to leave California was because, after the last election there – which elected the very ex-governor who put in place the policies that got California to the fiscal place it is now in – I realized that it wasn’t the politics, but it was the voters, the electorate, of California, who were the problem. And that the stupidity of the electorate of California had reached such a critical mass, that it would take decades, and utter financial ruin for the state (and its middle class residents), to change that electorate.

    And I simply don’t have decades left.

    The political blinders came off me as a result of that revelation …the understanding that the real problem in California was that the stubbornly ignorant voters vastly outnumbered the fewer who had a clue. You can’t “fix” stupid. I wasn’t going to stick around anymore. Time to leave.

    And now this.

    Think about the entire United States …as California.

    I’m not being alarmist when I say: the republic cannot survive the California-ization of the US economy. And I wonder if the West – the western Greek/Judeo/Christian civilization we inherited, that has reached its penultimate form in the democratic federal republic of the US – can survive.

    I read history. I see the West itself is in decline. Civilizations do fail, when the core rots.

    And yeah, I really do think that this particular election was that important, due to the financial pressures that permeate the core of the economy. And that “we, the people” in essence just voted for the Fall of Rome.

    How utterly and pathetically stupid can it get. Jeezus.

    So I’m not all that sanguine thinking that “well, at least he can’t run again”.

    I really don’t give a frack about the incompetent, banal, and utterly corrupt machine politician from Chicago. He’s just another huckster, a product of politics and avarice as a path to wealth that is so obviously out for his personal self-enrichment that it’s almost laughable to see people so susceptible to such a tired meme of the snake oil salesman again.

    My fear is something far worse: that he is just the current avatar of a now inevitable decline. Critical mass. The De Toqueville prediction. We’re uttlerly screwed.

    Hence. “Well …that sucks.”

    …as written to my “baby” brother, who still lives in California …which, it seems, I haven’t escaped from after all.

    So, artfldgr my lucid friend: what palliative do you propose? I confess I’m at a bit of a loss this morning, and fresh out of ideas. And hope.

  152. kolnai Says:

    Oops, nevermind. New post up.

    Scratch the last question.

  153. davisbr Says:

    Jeezus kolnai. Now I’m beginning to think we’re mind-linked. Or something.

  154. neo-neocon Says:

    kolnai: for me, one of the ways I deal with stuff is by writing about it. That’s also one of the ways I think about things—I write them out, and it helps the thoughts flow. So last night when I had trouble sleeping, I was thinking and writing.

    I know a lot of people are going to withdraw, stop reading and writing. I don’t think that will be my style.

  155. Richard Saunders Says:

    Wolla Dalbo and others who have pointed to the ADHD/Brain Rot that infests the electorate are right. People can go into the voting booth and vote against theoir own interests every time. When they come out of the booth, they’ll go back to working on their plan to move out of California and, if possible, the States.

  156. kolnai Says:

    neo –

    Oh, I didn’t mean to suggest you would stop completely. I was thinking more of a delayed reaction, a moment of silence.

    For the record, writing is how I deal with things too. But often when something traumatic occurs, I write gibberish, a sign that I’m not seeing clearly. So I take a breather and roll the thought around in the hamster wheel in my head.

    Just thought you might have had a similar deal going on.

    And for the record, Part II: even if I do become more disengaged from the news cycle, I shan’t desist (said in my best British accent) from coming to my internet home right here. We’re in the foxhole together.

  157. kolnai Says:

    davisbr –

    It’s spooky. Maybe it’s a California thing (I’m a Floridian, but my life is bookended thus far by California – first 12 years in the Bay Area, last 5 years in San Bernardino County). Maybe California has a way of driving sane people to the same kind of madness, or gives us a particular angle on the nation that is peculiarly Californian.

    Or maybe, just maybe, we are both geniuses of world-historical proportions, and as such the giants stand on OUR shoulders.

    Yeah. I’m going with all of the above, screw it. Nothing like delusions of grandeur to provide that jolt of strength to begin piecing back together a shattered spirit.

  158. davisbr Says:

    LOL, dude.

    If you ever make it up to Spokane, you and yours have a place to stay with me and mine. Dinner, wine & conversation …and grandeur. And, oh what the hell: delusions! FTW!

    Well, if I don’t simply drive across the border slightly to the north of here as my next (final?) attempt at escape.

  159. neo-neocon Says:

    kolnai: glad to hear you’ll still be coming here. Your comments are very valued.

    Wish, wish, wish FredHjr were still around.

  160. Occam's Beard Says:

    Steve D: Americans were exceptional. Their descendents are not.

    It’s genetic regression to the mean. Exert a strong selection for some trait, such as initiative and industry. Those selected will of course evince the selected trait. But after some generations, the population will regress to the mean. (For example, the gender skew in Australia occasioned by transportation of convicts has now been totally erased.)

    In the political arena, in effect, we carry the seeds of our social degeneration in our DNA, and inevitably, ineluctably, over time will breed a cohort of stupid and worthless individuals. In nature, natural selection would cull them from the herd. But now we not only protect, but exalt them, and seek their counsel every four years. Madness.

  161. kolnai Says:

    neo –

    Much appreciated.

    davisbr –

    Spokane, eh? I have some familiarity with the old WA. My grandparents moved to Snohomish when I was a teenager and I visited them frequently. Then they moved to the San Juan Islands, and I went “there,” inasmuch as a place that seems straight out of Lewis Carroll can be said to exist in space. Seriously, it’s like what 19th Century Marxists used to dream of – a small community of folks living in a town that seems conservative on the outside but is really populated with commies and…um…”free spirits.”

    Never been over to Spokane, though. I see you have a Republican mayor and your Rep. is Carry McMorris Rodgers… but also that Obama blew McCain out there in 2008 (probably the same happened to Romney last night). Interesting. Perhaps the residual ability to vote conservative on occasion is a result of the proximity to Idaho?

  162. Long-time-lurker Says:

    The Ministry of Lies and Propaganda is to blame. They have now picked the opponent to their guy for two cycles. They have to be dealt with.

    There is story on the Wallace side of the family (yeah those Wallaces) about an old lady kicking a Lobsterback NCO in the ass shoving him into the cellar. You know that would be felony assault on a government official today.

  163. davisbr Says:

    No, I don’t think conservatism is actually merely residual around here. After a year living in Spokane, it seems to me that is embedded in the soul of the place. Obviously and unbelievably so to this transplanted Californio.

    I guess it might ebb-and-flow politically though. But these people are more culturally conservative than anywhere I’d lived in California (and I was a life-long resident until a year ago). No comparison.

    I’m guessing that in the 2008 election it was subsumed by the national fervor of the Left, and by weariness of the whole Bush “thing” …more a lack of enthusiasm than anything? Dunno.

    (The local Washington joke – oft repeated by me, as I adore the truism inherent in the intended jibe – is someone asking “If it’s 9:30P in Seattle, what time is it in Spokane?” The answer is “1960”.

    (And as it turned out, I had quite missed living in 1960 lol.)

  164. Lorenz Gude Says:

    What a good bunch of thinkers dealing with the reality we face. I agree it’s bad and is great to have a forum where regular people can try to nut out what is happening and why. Nearly everyone here has swallowed the red pill – what a pleasure to read what you have to say. On the bright side I was reading about the predicament Egypt is in. They must import food and energy and are running out of money while arguing about the role of Sharia in legislation. Reflect that in 100 years the US should still have the ability to produce both energy and food in abundance. We have serious problems but we are a practical people and I think we have an opportunity to work them out. The beginnings of awakening are evident in the reaction to debt at the state level. They just don’t get it yet that extend and pretend isn’t going to work at the federal level. Nor do they see that Europe has gone further down this road and is likely to return the favor of the housing bubble by sending us into collapse. For a demographic peek at the future of the world take a look at this map of the percentage of abortions by country world wide.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.

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