January 5th, 2013

Gun legislation plans?

It’s a good bet.

And fast, before the glow of post-Newtown outrage fades.

I’m certainly not against all gun legislation. But I am against meaningless and stupid laws that make meaningless and stupid distinctions, and my strong guess is that any laws pushed by this president and this Congress will be in that category. If I turn out to be wrong, I will be very pleasantly surprised.

What’s more, when I read articles by politicians and pundits on the left, I see this sort of thing as getting the camel’s nose in the door. The goal of many on the left is to escalate and widen gun control and ultimately to repeal or at the very least weaken the 2nd Amendment. If you don’t believe me, just start reading.

66 Responses to “Gun legislation plans?”

  1. rickl Says:

    I don’t remember where I saw it, but this morning I read a comment which said that after 9/11 if you suggested that all Muslims should be rounded up and deported, the liberals would have said, “What? You can’t stigmatize a whole group of people for the actions of a demented few.”

    That doesn’t seem to apply now.

  2. thomass Says:

    Yeah; I wanted to buy a rifle and no one has any other than .22lf (the smallest caliber)… anywhere… Cheap brands, high end, everything is out. Seems a lot of people knew which way the wind was blowing long before this interview.

  3. rickl Says:

    Take a look at this chart: Plunge! Ammunition Levels Less Than 10% of Pre-Election Levels

    This is just for one particular company, and represents its remaining inventory. The horizontal scale represents days before and after the election. Note the immediate spike after the election, and the second and much larger spike later. The second one correlates with the Sandy Hook massacre, which happened on Dec. 14, 38 days after the election.

  4. holmes Says:

    It just shows that the real right that needs to be limited is the right to vote.

  5. Dirtyjobsguydmoelling Says:

    I noted today that Greenwich Connecticut is considering armed guards at its schools. Now Greenwich is a weary wealthy, tony town home to lots of finance types. That wily ol NRA will win the day on this debate. The students at sandy hook school have gone back to school in a vacant school in a neighboring town. Local police will provide security and boast it will be the safest school in the country. Now if cops are needed because of the attraction of copy cat wackos, why not for other schools.

  6. RickZ Says:

    I’m certainly not against all gun legislation.

    Why? What do you have against the Bill of Rights? (Note: Bill of Rights, not Bill of Needs.) Why not a mandatory 10 day waiting period to give a speech, with the background check paid for by the intended speaker, and mandatory minimum prison sentences for violating the Free Speech Regulation Law? Sorry, but further gun control is the hill to die on.

    Communists just hate it when the populace have guns. And that right there is enough of a reason to fight further gun control.

    Tyranny, watering the Tree of Liberty and all that.

  7. rickl Says:

    RickZ Says:
    January 5th, 2013 at 3:25 pm

    Why not a mandatory 10 day waiting period to give a speech, with the background check paid for by the intended speaker, and mandatory minimum prison sentences for violating the Free Speech Regulation Law?

    When the Founders wrote the First Amendment, they used quill pens and parchment. The most advanced printing presses used lead type that had to be set one letter at a time.

    They never foresaw radio, television, or the internet. Nowadays anybody can spout off their half-baked opinions all over the world. Clearly we need “reasonable” restrictions on free speech, complete with licenses and background checks.

  8. holmes Says:

    There are reasonable restrictions on other rights- you can’t be a felon and vote (actually, I think you should be able to vote once convicted and after you serve your sentence.) There are also restrictions on speech, religion, etc., etc.

  9. Gary Rosen Says:

    “Why not a mandatory 10 day waiting period to give a speech”

    If we could only apply that to Obama …

  10. parker Says:

    What law or regulation will prevent a criminal or a determined psycho from committing murder? There are thousands of federal and state laws and regulations controlling every aspect of firearm ownership. As far as I am aware none have prevented a single murder, rape, or robbery.

    Firearms are not the problem.

  11. Gary Rosen Says:

    I shot rifle briefly in high school and have shot occasionally a few other times but I’m not a “gun person”. I have one question: isn’t the phrase “assault weapon” or “assault rifle” pointless in the first place? Isn’t any weapon by definition an “assault” weapon, from a hatpin on up? IOW, I suspect (along with many here probably) that the terminology is used as a means of demonizing guns and their owners.

  12. parker Says:

    thomass,

    I own 2 Mausers in 8MM. I bought the second one in 1998, an M-48, for $89. Its a good rifle, well made and accurate. The prices have gone up but they are still available. http://www.mauser.org/m-48-rifle/

  13. A_Nonny_Mouse Says:

    I have never even touched a gun in my life.

    But since Dear Leader has cited the URGENT need (*) for “reasonable gun control” –and acknowledged that “there will be resistance” to the idea– I am determined to provide some of that-there “resistance”, so I’m going shopping for a gun. Even if they’re out of stock now, the wonders of capitalism will bring more inventory soon, I’m sure.

    (A quote I’m using more and more: “I aim to misbehave.” Too bad I didn’t have cable back when Firefly first aired!)

    - – - – - -
    (*) Don’t get complacent about “he won’t really be able to do it”. When The Usurper gets started on something that he deems URGENT, somehow “things fall into place” {I do NOT understand how} and, dammit, it turns into a “done deal” in surprisingly short order. This “seize the guns” effort makes me VERY uneasy…

  14. davisbr Says:

    ^^…and you would be correct!

  15. davisbr Says:

    Uh, Gary Rosen, that is

  16. thomass Says:

    Gary Rosen Says:

    “I shot rifle briefly in high school and have shot occasionally a few other times but I’m not a “gun person”. I have one question: isn’t the phrase “assault weapon””

    Yeah; it really doesn’t mean anything. It’s about looks.
    An AR-15 is called one while a Mini 14 isn’t. People say the AR shoots straighter but otherwise its just about looks. Some stores will sell Mini 14s that have a wood stock but won’t sell others with the same thing in synthetic black plastic (for a stock)… on and so forth… You can google them to see differences.

  17. Sam L. Says:

    Some rifles are ‘scarier’ than others. Some people think all rifles are scary. Especially when owned by conservatives, which they must be because clearly no progressive would own such a thing!

  18. Jim Sullivan Says:

    Like parker, I can’t see any gun laws making a difference. And talk about letting the camel’s nose in the tent. I am loathe to give the State any leverage, any foothold, any angle.

    Holmes points out the there are laws that limit speech and religion. Are they even necessary? And reasonable? I don’t think so, not anymore.

    Even the “Shouting fire in a crowded theater” argument no longer seems sensible to me. There are all sorts of ways the ‘rationalizing’ animal (to paraphrase Heinlein) seeks to absolve people of the consequences of the actions. If someone panics, that’s their problem.

    I become colder and more heartless by the day. Observing the lock-step idiocy of our culture tends to do that to you.

  19. Steve Says:

    The House can simply ignore the bills or vote them down. They should do it with pride.

  20. Steve Says:

    I am sure there will be a lot of moralistic posturing by the left. Congress might first hold hearings to see if the facts of Sandy Hook known. I think it is still unclear which guns were used. Would any of the proposed bills have any effect? Just keep digging. I think the left will be infuriated because they know their only chance is if the bills are voted on quickly.

  21. rickl Says:

    The thing is, I’m very worried about the current crop of Republicans. I don’t trust them to put a stop to this nonsense. I’m afraid they’re going to craft some sort of compromise, which will only end up further compromising our liberty.

  22. thomass Says:

    parker Says:

    “I own 2 Mausers in 8MM. I bought the second one in 1998, an M-48, for $89″

    Thanks. Its a self defense thing so I want a semi auto. Good bolt actions are still in stock all over still. But I see now stores are even selling out of the semi auto .22LF…

    I can’t be too angry at the GOP for the extra 2% in taxes but if they cave on this they are done as a party.

  23. Occam's Beard Says:

    you can’t be a felon and vote (actually, I think you should be able to vote once convicted and after you serve your sentence.)

    Dems are trying to give the vote to felons, for the obvious reason: birds of a feather and all that.

    I disagree entirely with giving the vote to felons after they’ve served their sentence, and think that they should lose their right to vote in perpetuity.

  24. rickl Says:

    Occam’s Beard:

    I think the laws about felons voting are on the state level, and that’s the way it should be. Different states have different laws about whether or not felons can have their voting rights restored.

    I disagree entirely with giving the vote to felons after they’ve served their sentence, and think that they should lose their right to vote in perpetuity.

    Be careful what you wish for, given the topic of this thread.

  25. rickl Says:

    thomass Says:
    January 5th, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    Yeah; it really doesn’t mean anything. It’s about looks.
    An AR-15 is called one while a Mini 14 isn’t.

    Just to clarify: They are both semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines, which fire the exact same ammunition. But one of them is scary black plastic with things hanging off it, while the other has a wood stock and looks like a “normal” rifle.

    AR-15

    Mini-14

  26. thomass Says:

    rickl Says:

    Yep.

  27. southpaw Says:

    A technical note on the AR vs the Ruger mini 14 I’ve owned a mini, and it was a very inaccurate rifle. I have a .223 Remington VTR 15 and 2 Bushmaster Predators (.223). All have floating barrels and are the most accurate rifles I have ever owned. And I’ve owned and do do own many nice bolt action pieces that I once considered accurate. These are really quite something else within 400 yards, which is the furthest I’ve attempted, but have no reason to believe they would do well further out in the right hands. Interesting thing is that’s why I like them so much- accuracy is exceptional. . The fact that they are semi-auto with high magazine capacity ( I use 10 rounds, but own a few 30s) is not all that interesting, and I would still want to own these if they were just single shot.

  28. thomass Says:

    and here is the mini 14 in black… so the large magazine aside (they sell a version with a california legal smaller magazine)… many stores that sell the mini 14 in the link above won’t sell this one due to the color…
    http://www.impactguns.com/ruger-mini-14-223-ss-synthetic-stock-20-rd-mag-5817-736676058174.aspx

    I don’t want it because it’s black btw; I want the metal to be stainless as it is much easier to take care of than blued metal. If anyone is buying their first gun; go stainless.

  29. thomass Says:

    southpaw Says:

    “A technical note on the AR vs the Ruger mini 14 I’ve owned a mini, and it was a very inaccurate rifle.”

    I hear they’ve retooled and the new ones are better. But yes; I also hear even so the ARs are still more accurate. I’m in California so I think I might run into less trouble with a non ‘evil featured’ mini 14 ranch version (plus no stupid mag removal button).

  30. KLSmith Says:

    I’m more worried by what O will do by executive order; faster easier than legislation.

  31. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    I was discussing this with a co-worker a couple weeks ago. He thought (as a gun owner) that we needed some regulations.
    I said if we allow registry, than they can come after our guns.
    He said that would never happen in America.
    Right.
    It happened a lot of other places.
    Then that newspaper printed that list.
    Now Canada figures registration is unworkable after all, for long guns:
    http://energeticcity.ca/article/news/2012/04/05/long-gun-r.egistry-officially-scrapped

  32. John McLachlan Says:

    An recent article on the conservative tree house by a firearms expert explained that the currently proposed legislation would prohibit nearly all firearms, despite listing only 120 types.

    The article explained that semi-automatic is not a valid technical term, it is a fiction, just like assault-rifle.

    The legal definitions of what are prohibited would effectively end the right to own firearms. The list of prohibited weapons is not intended to be exhaustive.

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/12/19/setting-the-record-straight-arm-yourself-with-information-the-10-most-popular-liberal-lies-about-gun-control/

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/12/29/prepare-to-be-disarmed-the-holy-grail-gun-control-outline-for-progressive-professional-leftists-exposed-guest-post-by-michelle/

  33. rickl Says:

    A_Nonny_Mouse Says:
    January 5th, 2013 at 5:09 pm

    I have never even touched a gun in my life.

    But since Dear Leader has cited the URGENT need (*) for “reasonable gun control” –and acknowledged that “there will be resistance” to the idea– I am determined to provide some of that-there “resistance”, so I’m going shopping for a gun.

    Good for you! Go for it.

    But make sure to take a beginner’s course. I described my experience here.

    I think most gun stores offer courses, or can point you in the right direction. The course I took was three nights over the span of a week. The first two nights were classroom instruction which taught about different kinds of guns and how they work, and also about principles of gun safety. Only on the third night did we go to the range for actual shooting.

  34. rickl Says:

    Earlier this morning I was reading the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler and found this post: Of Blankets and Miscalculations

    He raises the interesting point that new gun control measures are more likely to succeed when times are good, and are more likely to be resisted when times are bad.

    In one of the comments I found this link:

    This is an Era that Shall Test the Resolve of Men

    There are a whole lot of choice quotes and links in that one.

  35. southernjames Says:

    I am pessimistic about this. The outcome from November actually makes me pessimistic about pretty much everything to do with DC and what our “betters” intend. And that includes ANY republican who thinks he can get away with thwarting the NRA and still get re-elected. Of which there plenty.

    The fact that there are 80 million gun owners is of little comfort. Heck there were probably 80 million people who strongly opposed Obamacare, who want secure boarders, who want fiscal sanity before our economy completely crashes, who think our staying in places like Afghanistan is ridiculous now, who would have liked someone held accountable for Fast and Furious, who are going to wait in vain for someone to be held accountable for Benghazi, and who voted for Romney — certain and secure in the knowledge that an arrogant narcissist president with 8% unemployment could not possibly be re-elected.

    So the hell what? It no longer makes a damn bit of difference what you want, or what I want, or what makes plain common sense. Common sense caught the last train out of town, people.

    The non-stop leftist propaganda onslaught is what got Obama re-elected, which was just one of its successes. Think about it….as another example..a political movement consisting SOLELY of people who wanted government spending and government waste brought under control – and whose rallies were always far more diverse and multiculteral than any Occupy protest or Code Pink anti-war rally — has been VERY successfully marginized and discredited as being a movement of middle aged and older white people who are racists.

    Play word association with the average, non-political person who gets their news from CNN and The Daily Show. Say “Tea Party,” and see how fast “racist” comes to mind. It…was….all….PROPAGANDA. And it worked.

    Now, it is (right wing, white male – get it in your heads that it is the narrative that counts, not the facts!) gun owners who oddly(!) and strangely(!) and unreasonably (!) resist “common sense” restrictions on “military style” weapons and “high capacity clips” who are being tarred with the brush of “extremism”. Why oh why are “some” (right wing racist white men) people so opposed to protecting children!!

    Oh and do not even try to tell me that “people won’t be fooled.” Oh really? Pray tell, WHAT people? The people who weren’t fooled the second time around by President the Oceans will Stop Rising, and who came to their senses and voted him out?

    It would be facinating and entertaining, if it was not so terrible.

  36. southernjames Says:

    Oh and as for whether bans or registration requirements will work?

    Well, in the short term, I suspect it will fail miserably. I know this is of course anecdotal and of no statistical consequence….

    But, in my small circle of people I know, I know of at least six men who own AR-15 type rifles. One of them purchased it for cash from another guy who needed the money. So THAT one, is already “off the books” and I have been told that it will remain so. No matter what.

    Out of the other five guys, I can predict with some degree of confidence that at least 3, maybe even 4 of them will ignore any Federal mandatory registration requirements. If follow-up is made to them, there will be a lot of “tipping canoe” accidental loss stories. And the guns themselves will go into a closet or under a bed — along with their 500-1500+ rounds of .223 ammo, which have an indefinite shelf life. To either be sold some day on the black market for cash…..or pulled out and used if the S–t ever really does hit the fan — like some Korean Shop owners in LA did to protect their property during the Rodney King riots.

    All of them will of course become instant Felons in the eyes of our Government, by keeping those firearms and not registering or turning them in, and by hanging on to their 30 cartridge magazines.

    So be it, in these the waning days of America. So be it. I described the short term. But the Left is not in this for the short term anyway. If it takes then 10-15 years to disarm us entirely — well, as we have seen, they are a patient bunch.

  37. Steve Says:

    southernjames, don’t you think some dems will have second thoughts about supporting gun control? For example Sen Manchin from West VA quickly changed his tune about gun control after hearing from his constituents. He spun his original statement to mean that he thinks it is time for a discussion about gun violence not for gun control. I think many dems are in a similar position. They face a real risk of being voted out of office if they vote for gun control measures. I doubt there are many Republicans who are at risk if they oppose gun control legislation.

  38. siri Says:

    Sweet Brown

  39. RigelDog Says:

    I am not sure what “reasonable” gun regulations still exist that have not already been passed; maybe the ability to conduct private sales without background checks. I’m 100% sure that the main motivation of most calls for commonsense gun control are about control, not guns. Right now the widely-popular proposal that worries me the most is the ban on “high” capacity guns/magazines. Five, six, or ten seem to be the magic numbers. Sorry, not enough bullets for self-defense, and more importantly, ZERO evidence that higher-capacity magazines will mitigate the lethality of the maniac spree-killer.
    Just a few days ago, a woman was home in the middle of the day with her two kids in a nice suburb of Atlanta when she saw a man who seemed to be trying to break into her house. Took the kids into the attic, closed the door and hoped to wait it out….exactly what every expert would advise. The burglar (and in my opinion would-be murderer/rapist) went through the house and eventually forced his way into the attic. She had a six-shot revolver at the ready, and emptied it. Made five hits, which is already fortunate in this sort of panicked situation—and he didn’t go down. He did beg her to stop shooting him. She bluffed her way past him as though she still had bullets left and escaped to a neighbors with her kids. Tell me again who “needs” more than six bullets?

  40. RigelDog Says:

    Correction: No evidence that LOWER capacity magazines will mitigate the lethality of maniac spree-killers.

  41. southernjames Says:

    Steve – we can only hope that there are enough “red state” Dems who will kill this. Then it will only be Obama’s Executive Orders we know will be issued in one form or another, and the enforcement agencies he controls – like the EPA who – just wait for it – will decide bullets are a pollutant or something, and will impose strangulation regulations on shooting ranges, etc.

    RigelDog. You make perfect common sense. But as I posted before — so what? Common sense (along with logic, moral absolutes, basic decency, and national patriotism, to name some others, but I digress) are no longer relevant and have no place in the discussion. Our betters want to have a “conversation” about guns – and well, as for your well thought-out points — they cannot be considered, because shut up.

  42. parker Says:

    I just checked the status of semi-auto rifles at http://www.cheaperthandirt.com. They list a wide variety of .223 & 7.62×39 rifles in stock.

    Some of you who seem to want a rifle, especially first timers, might want to consider the M1 carbine. 15 & 30 round mags are available. http://www.auto-ordnance.com will gladly ship one to your local FFL dealer.

  43. Al Reasin Says:

    105 people have been prosecuted in DC for having a high-capacity magazine, but not NBC’s Mr. Gregory. If he isn’t prosecuted, the DC federal circuit cout should expunge the records of those citizens if the charges were brough on because a magazine that was unloaded and not with a weapon. Likewise those who had un-registered ammo. Stupid law by stupid people. Probabily intended to nail criminals but does that to innocent citizens too.

  44. RickZ Says:

    Al Reasin Says:

    Probabily intended to nail criminals but does that to innocent citizens too.

    Feature, not a bug.

    Think about it. If the Government passes some not even draconian gun control registration legislation and a majority of gun owners willingly and deliberately ignore it, the Government has just made criminal 50% (or more) of the law-abiding population. They can then be hounded and rounded up at leisure.

    The joys of totalitarianism.

  45. rickl Says:

    “Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We WANT them broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against–then you’ll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We’re after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you’d better get wise to it. There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one MAKES them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted–and you create a nation of law-breakers–and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Rearden, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

    –Ayn Rand, “Atlas Shrugged” (1957)

  46. southernjames Says:

    As for Totalitarianism….I’m just trying to figure out whether, after the coming total economic collapse, with its massive hardships and civil unrest… and resulting ah…. let’s say “re-configuration” of our government – whether 25 years from now, the country will more closely resemble an Eastern Bloc Soviet type of totalitarian regime — stoic and solemn people lining up for their issue of government cheese; escaping from it all by getting totally s–t faced on cheap vodka every weekend; and everyone knowing somebody who got sent to a gulag…….or will be more along the lines of a South American Junta/Fascist set-up. Roaming bands of armed drug gangs; black market capitalism; grinding poverty; widespread illiteracy – and with an extremely wealthy ruling elite ensconced behind gated communities with heavily armed security.

    Subject to change, I’m leaning towards predicting the South American model. Seems like a good fit for the direction we are heading, wouldn’t you say?

  47. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    rickZ sez:
    the Government has just made criminal 50% (or more) of the law-abiding population. They can then be hounded and rounded up at leisure.

    IIRC the opening to Naked Lunch says something similar, that the government of the fictional “district” it was set in made so may rules and regs that the average citizen was always in fear of having broken one thus always in fear of prosecution.

  48. RickZ Says:

    rickl,

    Never read Atlas Shrugs, but some truths are universal. Scary how much what I wrote from my own perspective mirrors Rand.

    (I’m partial to the much shorter It Can’t Happen Here, by Sinclair Lewis. Now THAT I’ve read numerous times, buying the book again in 2008 as I couldn’t find my copy; I must have loaned it out on a permanent basis. Don’t you hate when that happens?)

  49. thomass Says:

    parker Says:

    “I just checked the status of semi-auto rifles”

    I can’t find any. If I could; they say they are not taking new orders now.

  50. rickl Says:

    Yeah, I’d go with the South American model, given Fast & Furious arming of Mexican drug cartels, and unrestricted immigration to the point where both parties throw up their hands and say, “There’s nothing we can do about it, and you white Anglos are just going to have to get used to being in the minority a few decades from now.”

    After all, illiterate third world peasants are easier to rule than white Americans who cling to their quaint, outdated notions of limited government and individual liberty.

  51. Paul in Boston Says:

    I think the right approach is to widen the discussion to homicides in general. From my calculations of the 16,800 homicides in 2009, 2000 were white deaths and 14,800 were black deaths, about 70% due to firearms. If the black death rate could be reduced to the white rate, 14,600 lives would be saved each year. Why is there no outcry over that? The South Side of Chicago, with very stringent gun laws, has the equivalent of a Newton every two weeks, mostly young people. Are their lives worth less than the lives of white children in an upscale town in CT?

    Rickl:

    Many regulations make the people poor. Promulgating many laws creates thieves and bandits.

    Lao Tse, founder of Taoism, 200 BC

  52. parker Says:

    Plenty of rifles to bid on at http://www.gunbroker.com, much more expensive than they were 6-12 months ago, but they are available to the highest bidder.

    “If the black death rate could be reduced to the white rate, 14,600 lives would be saved each year. Why is there no outcry over that? The South Side of Chicago, with very stringent gun laws, has the equivalent of a Newton every two weeks, mostly young people. Are their lives worth less than the lives of white children in an upscale town in CT?”

    Society has in fact determined their lives are worthless. Its difficult for the politicos & MSM to create sympathy for and agitate for more gun control over the slaughter of gang bangers and innocent black bystanders in the wasteland of inner city Chicago and elsewhere.

    Dare I say that really is a racist attitude?

  53. Promethea Says:

    Two points to add to this almost dead thread:

    1. I saw lots and lots of “assault weapons” in my local Home Depot.

    2. I have about 10 friends or acquaintances who are “Hispanics.” They are not rich, but they are ALL Republicans.

  54. southernjames Says:

    Promethea – really?

    1. ?? Oh, I assume you mean things like hammers. I’m sure knowing that she can purchase a hammer or screwdriver from Home Depot will be of great comfort to the lady in Georgia who just saved herself and her two twin children from a home intruder bent for violence, by shooting him with her handgun. You may have to dig for that story – it is being ignored by the MSM.

    2. Glad there are at least ten of them. Unfortunately, facts are stubborn things – for example, even though Romney won the white Catholic vote by something like 60-40; Obama still won the overall Catholic vote, yet again. In spite of the HHS mandate, and in spite of Obama being Planned Parenthoods Bestest Friend ever. Why? Because he trounced Romney with the Hispanic vote. One of the big myths conservatives like to cling too is that the immigrants from south of the border bring “socially conservative values” with them and that may somehow help us in the long run. It’s a myth.

  55. thomass Says:

    southernjames Says:

    “immigrants from south of the border bring “socially conservative values” with them and that may somehow help us in the long run. It’s a myth.”

    I agree but at the same time we don’t even try to campaign on that group. I think we could do better (as in double the count) if we tried. Same with African Americans, stop going to the NAACP to give a speech and calling it a day. Republicans actually need to try to campaign with that group.

  56. Don Carlos Says:

    When Neo writes in her opening, “I’m certainly not against all gun legislation”, I wish she would be more specific. In light of the 2nd Amendmant and the SCOTUS ruling, what forms should gun legislation take? Beware the camel’s nose.

  57. Steve Says:

    Reading comments here and on other sites I wonder if Obama and dems are not making an enormous mistake in stirring up this issue. They may find they have another grassroots movement that is even more determined than the tea party movement. I know I would participate.

  58. southernjames Says:

    I read on a blog called “The Captain’s Journal” (link from Instapundit): “If new gun control measures don’t pass the Senate and House, the game is far from over. The Obama administration is investigating the possibility of executive orders reclassifying semi-automatic firearms as class 2 weapons, thus doing by fiat what the legislative branch rejected.”

    And don’t for a minute trust guys like McCain or Lindsay Graham. The Beltway GOP guys are just as much a part of the “ruling class” as the Dems. The ruling class in Feudal societies does not like the peasants to be armed. Two sets of rules – one for them and one for the rest of us. David Gregory gets armed security at Sidwell Friends for HIS kids; but calls the Pres of NRA’s suggestion of armed security at schools “risible.” Why is nobody in the actual GOP (as opposed to conservative bloggers and writers) bringing this up on the house or senate floor? I think we all know why.

    It also gives me no comfort when people (like Captains Quarters blog) say “the GOP will cease to exist” if gun legislation passes. Do the individuals in the GOP who will be bribed and given “pork” promises they can take home to their wealthy corporate donors care? What is the re-election rate of incumbants, regardless of the incompetance? 90+%?

    People have to realize that this is no longer like 1994 or other similar periods, when insane legislation got floated. The Left is flush with victory and with power. The Left is the strong horse in DC right now.

    They will now stop at nothing to complete what they started with Obamacare — which means the full transformation of our Country. We are within 5 years of having fully nationalized (and VERY rationed, for all but the elite, who will have separate medical plans) health care – Obamacare was designed to cause this to happen. The boiling frog approach – the peasants don’t know what hit them. And now it is too late. We blew our chance at getting it repealed. Our fate, as far as health care is concerned, has been sealed.

    Next up – that pesky Second Amendment, standing in the way of totalitarian control. Same slowly boiled frog approach. Propose something outrageous (e.g, Feinstein). Then back off, and “compromise” and get the 20% they wanted all along, from the party of Stupid. Everyone bear hug and mug for the cameras and then go to a DC cocktail party. Rinse and repeat every few years.

    Guns will not be overtly “grabbed.” Too many conservatives are just being “played.” Again. The Left will continue to implement incremental change (such as the proposed legislation that allows you to keep your gun, but NOT pass it along to your heirs!; or massive taxation/restrictions on ammunition, etc.), in order to achieve total disarmament in a matter of years, not months.

    And some people (also now known as the powerless minority) will fuss, and holler and call and rant on talk radio, and write long screeds about succession, Texas this and Texas that, and Jefferson tree of liberty quote, and my cold dead hands blah blah blah blah ….and then…..guys like Lindsay Graham, and John McCain, and 90% of the rest of the traitors will get re-elected. Oh, there may be a successful primary challenge here or there – by somebody who will end up being marginalized as a “tea party extremist” or a “kook” or the Uncle Tom if he happens to be black; or a crazy/stupid white trash idiot if she happens to be an attractive social con female. And who will then be targeted heavily for defeat, if he/she appears to be gaining any sort of national traction….

    Buckle up. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.

  59. Oldflyer Says:

    There is a lot of brave talk about resistance to confiscatory measures; and reference to 80 million gun owners, and so forth.

    It is just talk, and is actually probably dangerous talk. If the government comes after gun owners, it will be after unorganized gun owners. They will go for individuals initially, not citizen militias. It does not matter how many there are gun owners and guns there are in the country; individually they will be outnumbered and outgunned.

    Even when they turn to the organized groups in Idaho, or other isolated locations, they will come with overwhelming force; and they will be relentless. Read Waco.

    The efforts to abridge the constitution must first be defeated in the minds of the U.S. citizens; which will be difficult given the anti-gun propaganda machine. Then they must be defeated in the Legislatures, in the Congress and in the Courts.

  60. Mr. Frank Says:

    The MSM walk on eggs around Muslims because they have some crazies among them who don’t mind dying. Recently, I’ve wondered if the millions of U.S. gun owners have many crazies among them who would attack media and government people. My guess is not many. I believe Oldflyer is correct.

  61. southernjames Says:

    Exactly. The overwhelming vast majority of gun owners in America are quiet, law abiding, average, middle class citizens. Who just want to be left the hell alone — to go target shooting at the range; or carry their little .380 or .38 or 9mm in their purse or pocket holster or car pursuant to their (expensive) carry permit they had to jump through hoops to obtain – why? well, just because they feel like it makes them safer, that’s why; or keep their (gasp, semi-auto) rifle in their home or shop if they live in a drug-ridden area and/or are worried about things like looting and civil unrest if the power goes out due to a hurricane or other similar event; ….

    And while there will be millions who will become unwilling, reluctant, and unhappy instant felons, because they will quietly refuse to submit to orders requiring them to “turn in” their 30 round mag, or “register” their 9mm handgun with the Feds…….they won’t actually take to the streets and/or start an armed revolution, or get their state to push for succession – notwithstanding the fantasies of some conservative blog commentators.

    Our only hope is that there are enough politicians who are sufficiently alarmed at the possibility (possibility, not certainty – nothing seems certain any more) of a groundswell political uprising of such a size that it will make the Tea Party movement seem like peanuts, if they permit registration etc., legislation pass….that they just nip this in the bud – in spite of all the deafening non-stop onslaught of HOWLING that will commence from the media.

  62. Long-time-lurker Says:

    I think you are mis-underestimating the American spirit. Quoting Bob Owens from a few days ago:

    “They didn’t know when they’d be getting anything back in stock, from magazines to rifles to pistols. Manufacturers were running full-bore, but couldn’t come close to keeping up with market demand. It wasn’t just the AR-15s, the AK-pattern rifles, the M1As, and the FALs that were sold out. It really hit me when I realized that the World War-era M1 Garands , M1 carbines, and Enfield .303s were gone, along with every last shell. Ubiquitous Mosin-Nagants—of which every gun store always seems to have 10-20—were gone. So was their ammo. Only a dust free space marked their passing. I’ve never seen anything like it.

    Every weapon of military utility designed within the past 100+ years was gone. This isn’t a society stocking up on certain guns because they fear they may be banned. This is a society preparing for war.”

  63. John Dough Says:

    Long-time-lurker Says: “….this is a society preparing for war….” Ms Feinsteins name will go down in history as the person who brought anarchy to the streets. Stand by folks… It’s coming to a street near you

  64. Don Carlos Says:

    My Officer Corps USArmy (ret.) friends all tell me the Army is too imbued with the concept of civilian control that its officers will do whatever the C-in-C orders. A civil uprising requires organization…good luck with that because the FBI will come down on such embryonic clusters with a hammer. We have seen this with the so-called militias. Advocating the violent overthrow of the US Govt will put one in prison for a long time.
    So a rebellion is a purely theoretical concept but totally impossible to effect unless the Army and Nat. Guard units lead it.

  65. thomass Says:

    Don Carlos Says:

    “My Officer Corps USArmy (ret.) friends all tell me the Army is too imbued with the concept of civilian control that its officers will do whatever the C-in-C orders.”

    Ditto the police.

  66. southernjames Says:

    See also, e.g., post-hurricane Katrina New Orleans.

    The National Guard had no qualms whatsoever following orders to confiscate, by force and via breaking down doors if necessary, law abiding citizens lawfully owned and 2A protected firearms — leaving them with the choice of either fleeing or being at the mercy of the threat of looters. Unconstitutional, and in most instances (including a video where they wrestled some 90 pound little old lady down to the ground, IN HER kitchen, to grab her revolver from her) totally unnecessary.

    For every “oath keeper,” I would wager there are no less than several dozen who will just follow orders. Especially in a S hits the fan martial law/power outage/food shortage situation. The men in uniform will act in their own personal best interests – which for indviduals, is likely to mean – following orders. That chow line full of food, ain’t open for the renegade who just deserted because he loves the Constitution. Neither do his paycheck and medical care continue for himself and his off-base housed wife and 2 kids. Who will become homeless and penniless as punishment. An indefinite stay, without the benefit of counsel or a trial, in a Gitmo camp will be in his future, however, when he gets caught, or a bullet in his head if he is not.

    I remember seeing a made for t.v. movie in the 80′s about the aftermath of a nuclear war with Russia – I think it was called The Day After or something. One of the scenes showed civilians lining up for food behind an Army truck, with the soldiers handing it out. I remember turning to my wife and saying — if the S hits the fan like that, it looks like the ones who’ve got it made are the guys who are in charge of distributing the food, not the ones waiting in line for it.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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