May 1st, 2013

The girlfriend is the last to know?

To me the most interesting thing—and probably the only interesting thing—about NBA basketball player Jason Collins’ announcement that he’s gay, has been ex-fiance Carolyn Moos’ statement that she hadn’t a clue about it in the 8 years she’d dated (and presumably slept with) him—and the resultant mockery she’s received to the effect of what kind of idiot wouldn’t know a thing like that?

But it happens quite frequently, and it’s not always because the woman is stupid.

And no, I’m not saying that from personal experience—except the experience of friends. Some men who are primarily gay are quite capable of having normal sex with a woman, and even loving her. That was true for a friend of mine who married her college sweetheart and was divorced a couple of years later when he announced he was gay, something neither she—nor any of the rest of us, for that matter, although we lacked the inside info, as it were, that she possessed—had suspected for a moment.

His explanation? He loved her. Yes, he loved her, was attracted to her, and thought their marriage would be a successful one. But as time went on he realized that he wasn’t just bisexual, he was primarily gay, and felt he had to tell her and leave even though it would devastate her (they were quite young and had no children, by the way).

She went on to meet and marry someone else, quite happily, and have a family. And believe me, she’s never been a naive dummy about sex. There just was nothing to notice during the time she knew him, according to her, and I believe her.

Being gay is not a unitary thing. Some gay men never have sex with a woman in their entire lives and can’t even imagine doing it, it’s so repugnant to them. Some do it a few times and find it all right but not worth repeating. Others, like my friend’s husband, can have a meaningful and somewhat satisfying sexual relationship with a woman, and yet their strongest feelings are for men. My guess is that the latter was the deal with Collins.

People like to think they would know if it was their sexual partner; that they couldn’t be fooled. But as with a lot of other things, that’s often just wishful thinking.

27 Responses to “The girlfriend is the last to know?”

  1. George Pal Says:

    Another myth re female powers – gaydar – exploded. Sometimes the ‘ping’ don’t mean a thing.

  2. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    IMO, he’s a bisexual who prefers having sex with men. It has been my observation (anecdotal evidence) that there is a continuum of sexuality among humans. It proceeds from strongly heterosexual graduating through bisexual to strongly homosexual. The normal condition skews towards heterosexuality. If it didn’t, the human race would not have been able to multiply as it has. There have probably been studies of this, but I’m not interersted enough to go look for them.

    I think most of us would rather that sex be kept in the bedroom. Instead we have the “victimized” gays (and yes, they have had to live secret lives and have been discriminated against in many ways) wanting to get sex out of the bedroom and into the news. Accceptance is not enough for them. It seems now that they want to have everyone tell them how wonderful their sexual proclivities are and to celebrate their differences. You know, diversity baby! I wish they would just keep it in the bedroom and shut up.

  3. Shouting Thomas Says:

    Some have spectulated that Collins announcement was an attempt to strongarm an NBA team is giving him a contract for another year. He’s a marginal player.

    Have you ever considered that he just might be lying about being gay? That he’s only doing it for PR? To extend his NBA career and get some endorsements.

    Lying about gaydom happens with some frequency, particularly in this era of gay worship.

  4. Seppo Says:

    “It seems now that they want to have everyone tell them how wonderful their sexual proclivities are and to celebrate their differences. You know, diversity baby! I wish they would just keep it in the bedroom and shut up.”

    The snarky thing is to turn this around and say the same thing about heterosexuals, quit reminding us about your attractions all the time. I hate that triteness, but there are elements there worth thinking about.

    People build their lives around their relationships, whether they are opposite sex or same sex attractions. I see people I know in all kinds of social settings with their spouse or partner, and kids if they have them. Heterosexuals are in the vast majority, and we don’t project their sexual proclivities on all aspects of their social appearances. Gram and Gramps are not flaunting their bedroom interests when they are at the gardening section of Home Depot together.

    When I see my next door neighbors at the store, they are two women, not two lesbians taunting the world with their sexual preferences. They have a life together, just as I have with my significant other, and they spend time together in public just as we do.

    My neighbors up the hill from us are two elderly men, each were married and had children. They realized they were gay, and after divorcing their wives have spent many years together. It happens. It’s one of life’s many mysteries, and it’s not out of the question that one’s orientation may reveal itself only over time and experience. Go figure.

  5. Richard Aubrey Says:

    Rush Limbaugh speculated that if Tim Tebow–recently released–came out, he’d be guaranteed an NFL slot as long as he wanted it.
    Unfortunately–for TT–he’s a straight Christian.

  6. J.J. formerly Jimmy J. Says:

    Seppo said, “The snarky thing is to turn this around and say the same thing about heterosexuals, quit reminding us about your attractions all the time. I hate that triteness, but there are elements there worth thinking about.”

    Point made. What is true though is that producing children to carry on the species is the most important thing. As I said, we humans would not have succeeded as well as we have if we weren’t mostly heterosexual. Without using surrogates gays cannot produce children. It is fortunate for us all that homosexuality is not the predominant sexual proclivity.

    Yes, it might be off-putting for a gay person to have to constantly watch movies about heterosexual love. Or listen to heterosexually themed music. However, Hollywood is trying to fill that void for gays. Unfortunately, if the statistics are correct about the percentage of gays, the market is quite small. Thus, gays will never have as much cultural impact as they would like. Not that they aren’t giving it the old college try.

  7. roc scssrs Says:

    We’re not supposed to say it, but men and women see sex differently. For women, sex is personal and love and sex closely intertwined. Men–of whatever persuasion–just have an awful lot of free-floating lust. He possibly loved her–according to his lights–but, like husband who indulges in prostitutes or porn or whatever, he’s traded a relationship for a lot of fun. He’s certainly won a lot of new admirers!

  8. I R A Darth Aggie Says:

    The cynic in me says he’s 34, and an unrestricted free agent come 1 July. What better way to make sure that some NBA team signs him to his last, fat contract?

    Otherwise, I think he’s looking at retirement and life after playing. If so, well played.

  9. sharpie Says:

    Who among heterosexuals are reminding everyone of their attractions to the opposite sex? Homosexuals, in pride and self-consciousness, think heterosexual expression is about them. (Here I will concede that the above applies not to all homosexuals, but to homosexual activists.) Sorry, we’re here, we’re not queer. Get over it.

    Are heterosexuals surrounding gay bath houses and expressing their love similar to homosexuals kissing in the Chik-fil-A parking lots?

    Are there heterosexual parades and heterosexual studies? Has heterosexual attraction been targeted by communists as a wedge issue to divide this nation? Are there religious objections to heterosexual sex? Is heterosexual attraction a political issue? Is California attempting to ban even voluntary counseling to persons wanting to refrain from homosexual behavior? Is California promoting homosexual behavior instead?

    There’s no equality between the two, either in substance or between the levels of promotion and the level of protection the state provides. One is immoral and insanitary, the other is natural and generative. One is blessed by the state, the other is being devalued by the state. Homosexuals are supported by the state and heterosexuals are prosecuted by the state. Shows how messed up our State is!

    It wouldn’t be the snarky thing to complain of the saturation of heterosexuality expression. It would be the PC thing to do and it was done. It would also be very stupid as if 97% of the populace must refrain because an incredibly small number of people complain. And contrary to the homosexual motive to cause as much commotion as possible, the heterosexual motive is not to antagonize homosexuals. Homosexual expression does not antagonize us if it is voluntary, between the adults and real. But it isn’t real. It’s in our face done specifically to antagonize.

    On a more basic level, the fact that someone could assert that heterosexual expression is offensive, means that person has no fear that anyone will assert much less enforce a standard that celebrates heterosexuality and condemns homosexuality. And if people are too afraid to voice and live their convictions and religious beliefs, then they are cowards or an amount of tyranny has already fallen upon them. I wonder how many people are getting fed up with tolerance.

  10. Liberty Wolf Says:

    You are right!

    I have not read the other comments here, but I just want you to know what a relief it is to see a more right wing person who is not anti-gay – who has an understanding of homosexuality that is nuanced, and who is not condemning out of hand of homosexuality. I see so many on the right, who are all of the above. Of course, there are many like you, but I am still delighted when I see evidence of it.

    I just had a long argument online with someone who is an Evangelical and who is anti-gay (thinks it is a disorder and a sin and they need to change, and they are all unhappy etc.) — and it is frustrating. So, just sayin’ —

    My own most recent post on Liberty Wolf goes into my issues with the right and the left on this particular issue.

  11. holmes Says:

    He also has a twin brother who is straight.

    I also had a neighbor who was gay who also had a straight twin brother.

    So much for genetic hardwiring.

  12. NeoConScum Says:

    Maybe Collins’ ONLY way to get an NBA contract was to faux ‘Out’ his precious self. Soooo, after his agent suggested that he could hop back to Heterosexuality AFTER a huge, predictable Fuss from the Mongoloid Press and subsequent hiring by a team…But, jeepers, that would be sooooooooo sleazy,’Yo.

  13. sharpie Says:

    It’s time we talk, Christian America. You have to face it. You are a bully. And we’re not going to stand for it anymore. You must celebrate homosexuality.–The tolerance and diversity league

    http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/communist-dictatorship-that-rounded-up-gay-men-into-concentration-camps-to-receive-gay-rights-award/

  14. n.n Says:

    Collins lied to his wife under oath. I hope his wife profits handsomely from his deception.

    Collins knowingly and willingly committed a hate crime against heterosexuals. Will Holder prosecute him for causing injury to a heterosexual woman?

    Since a minority of our population has determined it convenient to reject the inviolable principles of evolution, they can no longer justify discrimination against any union. They must act to normalize every form and kind, number and combination, even inter-species unions, irrespective of age or stage of development (the current standard for premeditated murder or elective abortion). They cannot discriminate between and sexual and platonic unions. The issue is equal protection. If they resist, if they continue to focus on normalizing homosexual unions, they will have invented a unique and progressive form of discrimination.

  15. n.n Says:

    sharpie:

    It is the homosexual activists, and their heterosexual patrons, who are the bullies. They are exploiting people’s good nature to force normalization of a behavior with no redeeming value to either society or humanity. They are forcing our society to normalize a dysfunctional behavior, which is the very prototype of evolutionary distress. Their behavior can be tolerated until it reaches some critical mass in a population.

    That said, the greater, immediate threat is posed by heterosexuals who exhibit dysfunctional behaviors.

    re: concentration camp

    It’s a gas chamber. I would politely ask that you refrain from asking its purpose and respect the privacy of its occupants. They were told that it was for their welfare. It was their choice.

    Sound familiar?

  16. Ben David Says:

    Neo:

    Being gay is not a unitary thing.

    It would be more honest to say “there is no such thing as being gay”. That is – there is no biological hard wiring (which is Big Lie Number 1 of the gay rights movement) there is only behavior, functional and dysfunctional.

    The post and the subsequent comments pretty much gut all the things that “everybody knows” about homosexuality.

    At this point, it’s a matter of agenda-and-media-driven-habit to continue talking about “being gay” and “coming out”.

    It’s more likely your friend’s husband chose dysfunction – and a more selfish life – based on some combination of unresolved issues and mid-life fantasy about escaping the work of marriage – and that early sexual experiences directed those pressures to express themselves in homosexual behavior.

    It is deeply DIS-honest to make believe all those happily married years were a mistake, an aberration, or that they don’t count towards this man’s identity simply because he says so.

    Homosexual behavior is not an identity – like anorexia and other compulsive behaviors, it’s a symptom.

  17. neo-neocon Says:

    Ben David: I disagree.

    As a said, not a unitary thing. There may be some percentage of people who identify as gay who are as you describe. It is a continuum on which that’s one extreme. There are shadings all along the line, and the other extreme are people who have absolutely no interest in the opposite sex, and never have, and never will.

    For the first group it is at least somewhat of a choice. For the second group I described, the other extreme, it is not. The only choice that group might have is whether to be celibate or not, and if the person is not religious, there’s really no reason to make the choice to be celibate.

    In the case of my friend’s ex-husband, he was not unfaithful to her while they were married. But he left because he realized he was more gay than not, and decided to bail while still very young (they had married quite young, and I think he was maybe 23 or 24 or so when they divorced) and before they had any children. Both he and my friend ended up in happy and monogamous relationships, and I think in his case he made the best choice in the end for everyone involved.

  18. neo-neocon Says:

    n.n.:

    What wife? What oath?

    This was his fiance, and he broke off the engagement before they got married.

    As far as I know, Collins has never been married.

  19. n.n Says:

    neo-neocon:

    So, no oath, just a commitment off the record to defraud. It’s just a matter of irreconcilable differences before the fact. No different than any other “friend with benefit” situation. His dysfunctional relationship is the same in form, if not in substance, as enjoyed by a majority of American men and women. Still, eight years, that is leading beyond what can be considered reasonable, or is that also now considered “normal”?

    Never mind. He is behaving within the acceptable norms and to the expected standards of the community within which he resides.

  20. neo-neocon Says:

    n.n: you are making an awful lot of assumptions there.

    You have no idea what his intent was, or whether he was faithful during the time he was engaged to be married. If he is anything like my friend’s husband (and this was the point of my story about my friend), his intent was to be faithful. When he realized he would not be able to fulfill this vow if he did take it (in other words, he would be deceiving her if he were to get married), he broke off the engagement and did not get married.

    The situation would of course be different if his intent was to deceive her and be unfaithful to her if they ever did get married. But you have no basis for concluding that was his intent.

  21. Pat Says:

    We have gay friends who were married, realized they were gay, and divorced. But we also have a formerly gay friend who opted out of the gay life-style, got married and went straight. Who cares? Folk have to know who they are and make their own decisions.

    What they shouldn’t do, in this day and age, is pretend to be what they are not.

  22. Ben David Says:

    Neo:

    For the first group it is at least somewhat of a choice. For the second group I described, the other extreme, it is not.

    On its face, this reflects oft-repeated shibboleths, and preserves the idea – demonstrably false, but drummed into our heads! – that homosexuals are “born that way” – which neatly sidesteps moral evaluation of the behavior, and has with repetition slid from “occuring in nature” to “normal and healthy” in most people’s minds.

    And so there are a range of outcomes, expressions of this “trait”.

    And so lived experience – including 20 years of marriage – are irrelevant to the idea of identity.

    Here are some quotes from a psychologist who specializes in same-sex attraction (SSA) – one of the few who has not succumbed to the overweening political correctness in his field. It’s from an article dealing with a similar case – a man who, after 20 years of marriage, decided he was “gay after all”:

    For these men, their deepest-level problem is not about sexual orientation but about something more fundamental: identity, attachment and belonging. Gender-identity conflict and attraction to men are only surface symptoms. This is the problem that the media chooses to ignore, and which both sides of the debate fail to acknowledge.

    As such a man’s identity evolves, there will be an excited “discovery of my True Self,” followed by disillusionment, then a new “real discovery of my True Self,” and then again, disillusionment. At the base of this desperate search is the anguished grasp for a stable personhood…. This periodic disillusionment leaves behind devastated individuals who have invested deeply in the person; in John’s case, Anne, his wife of 20 years (and) his three teenage sons

    John and his supporters in the gay community want to frame the latest change in his story as proof that people who experience SSA were simply designed and created for homosexuality, but we would be deceived if we believed this simplistic paradigm.

    Can John really believe that he’s going to find love and happiness walking away from his wife and three sons? John says he never in his life felt loved. However, I conjecture that no one has ever truly loved John more than his own wife, Anne.

    Read the whole thing for a more closely observed profile – and a clinical precis of such men that may or may not jibe with your friend’s experience.

    http://josephnicolosi.com/my-old-friend-john-paulk/

  23. Ben David Says:

    Pat:

    We have gay friends who were married, realized they were gay, and divorced. But we also have a formerly gay friend who opted out of the gay life-style, got married and went straight.

    In the current zeitgeist, couple 1 are to be celebrated, even if their lives are dysfunctional – and couple 2 are ignored at best – or the Leftist trope of “false consciousness” is used to discredit their lived experience.

  24. Richard Aubrey Says:

    I believe it was then SCOTUS Justice O’ Connor who said, wrt Roe, that progress in neo-natal care would push back some of the stop signs in fetal development having to do with viability, and thus rendering earlier stop signs allowing abortion invalid.
    Progress can bite.
    If gay is a choice, or at least imposed on one by circumstance, then it’s logical to presume that some form of reparative therapy will be devised that works. That’s presuming the current form does not. Gay activists’ insistence that it does not is sufficiently hysterical that one thinks they may be hiding something.
    If gay is born in, either as a genetic issue or an in-utero issue, progress will allow pre-natal detection and either repair, or abortion, depending on the wishes of the parents and the state of medical science at the time.

  25. sharpie Says:

    Ben David has a good argument. It fits if we throw off the shackles of PC and honestly employ critical thinking.

    The information is not unavailable. Don’t let the pink fascist’s threats deter a search for the truth.

    Here’s an example of the truth straight from the source.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ADh8Fs3YdU

    The Show Must Go On

    Empty spaces – what are we living for
    Abandoned places – I guess we know the score
    On and on, does anybody know what we are looking for…
    Another hero, another mindless crime
    Behind the curtain, in the pantomime
    Hold the line, does anybody want to take it anymore
    The show must go on,
    The show must go on
    Inside my heart is breaking
    My make-up may be flaking
    But my smile still stays on.
    Whatever happens, I’ll leave it all to chance
    Another heartache, another failed romance
    On and on, does anybody know what we are living for?
    I guess I’m learning, I must be warmer now
    I’ll soon be turning, round the corner now
    Outside the dawn is breaking
    But inside in the dark I’m aching to be free
    The show must go on
    The show must go on
    Inside my heart is breaking
    My make-up may be flaking
    But my smile still stays on
    My soul is painted like the wings of butterflies
    Fairytales of yesterday will grow but never die
    I can fly – my friends
    The show must go on
    The show must go on
    I’ll face it with a grin
    I’m never giving in
    On – with the show -
    I’ll top the bill, I’ll overkill
    I have to find the will to carry on
    On with the -
    On with the show -
    The show must go on…

  26. Anne Says:

    It’s sad to see the bigotry come out of the woodwork after the earlier, more thoughtful responses. Unless you can get inside a gay man or woman’s head to verify these claims, don’t judge or make sweeping statements. I have gay friends who have gone through hell because of their sexual orientation and if possible would have “turned straight” in an instant in order to live an easier, happier life in their communities. I also find the aggressive gay rights brigade rather off-putting, and am puzzled at the lavish praise for this man revealing private, personal information, but the sooner we accept homosexuality as a quirk of nature and as a private thing that does not define a person’s identity, the sooner the more distasteful aspects of gay culture, which are a response to years of marginalization, will crumble.

  27. Ben David Says:

    Anne:

    It’s sad to see the bigotry come out of the woodwork after the earlier, more thoughtful responses.

    Translation: how dare people disagree with that their PC betters have told them! Back in line, or we’ll slap more labels on you and your “opinions”…

    Shouldn’t such a shift in our shared cultural and moral norms be based on actual observation rather than pity-mongering?

    Is it really “bigotry” to say so?

    Anne:

    Unless you can get inside a gay man or woman’s head to verify these claims, don’t judge or make sweeping statements. I have gay friends who have gone through hell because of their sexual orientation and if possible would have “turned straight” in an instant in order to live an easier, happier life in their communities.

    We don’t need to get inside anyone’s head – all those with experience of alcoholism, drug abuse, anorexia, or other compulsive-addictive behaviors knows how hard it is to resolve the underlying issues and walk away from these dysfunctional, compelling habits.

    Such people will also have experienced the manipulative narcissism that runs through these behaviors – in which the sufferers urge those around them to become codependent with their behavior and the worldview that feeds it.

    We also have ample data documenting the dysfunction of the homosexual “lifestyle” – and the continued mental distress of out-n-proud homosexuals, which prove that the proffered solution doesn’t help anyone – except Gramscians intent on dismantling Western morality.

    Again:
    Shouldn’t such a shift in our shared cultural and moral norms be based on actual observation rather than pity-mongering?

    Is it really “bigotry” to say so?

    Anne:

    the sooner we accept homosexuality as a quirk of nature and as a private thing that does not define a person’s identity, the sooner the more distasteful aspects of gay culture, which are a response to years of marginalization, will crumble.

    Translation: the sooner we become codependent with gay dysfunction, the sooner these unbalanced narcissists will leave us alone.

    Riiiiiight.

    Also unexplained is how exactly accommodating the in-your-face gay-rights agenda will somehow restore modesty – does Anne really think the gay rights movement DOESN’T want sexual orientation to “define a person’s identity’?

    Round and round it goes – the only fixed points being the catechism of politically correct opinions and the pantheon of officially hip victim groups.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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