[NOTE: If you want to refresh your memory on the “if only Stalin knew” reference, see this.]
[NOTE II: George Will weighs in, asking, “How stupid do they think we are?” My answer: “Very. And they may be correct.”]
Comments
Joe Klein: the IRS targeted conservative groups… — 15 Comments
All you have to do is read the comments on some blog posts about the IRS story. Plenty of “liberal” commenters don’t see anything wrong with what went on. As long as it punishes their enemies they’re happy. The fact that they’re too short-sighted to see the long-term implications of moving the government in that direction (and the Pandora’s Box that it would open for both sides of the political spectrum) proves they’re pretty stupid. Sorry, George.
George Will asked, “Just how stupid do they think we are.”
Unfortunately, I am coming to the conclusion that so many people here in the U.S. are either thoroughly propagandized by the Left and/or deliberately ill-educated, are so deep in denial, or are so focused on TV or sports trivia, and still get all of their information from the MSM, that they are unable and/or unwilling to see, comprehend, or to understand the gravity and danger of the actions of the Obama administration–things like Benghazi, and the IRS targeting Obama’s political opponents merely the most recent and most blatant–which are staring to form an extraordinarily dangerous pattern–as we see more and more evidence of Obama and Co. acquiring and actively using the tools of Tyranny.
So, “how stupid do they really think we are?” It’s looking more and more like, on average, really, really stupid and really, really oblivious, and Obama & Co. look like they are, unfortunately, right.
So, no matter how blatant, no matter how wrong, illegal, and threatening to our Constitution and to our personal Freedoms and our Liberty the actions of Obama and his administration are, if a sufficient number of citizens are not aware of them and see them as problems, do not comprehend what is at stake, see them as mortal threats to the country and Republic and, ultimately, to them personally and, then, get angry, and form a growing chorus, tirelessly agitating for investigations and justice, that dog just won’t hunt.
A couple of thoughts tickled my consciousness.
First, at least Klein gave some ink to the issue. But, I wonder if he was serious when he alleged that no corruption was found in the stimulus give away. We know that hundreds of millions of taxpayer’s dollars went to “green” companies whose Executives were major donors to Obama. I guess to meet Klein’s corruption threshold, Obama would need to deliver that money in a black bag deep in a dark alley.
Second. The perps in the IRS scandal need to face a lot more serious punishment than firing. The need to be prosecuted relentlessly. In addition the evidence must be followed up the chain of command and anyone who encouraged, or condoned, this travesty must be subjected to appropriate sanctions as well. This involves the fundamental issues of abuse of personal freedom , as well as the abuse of government power.
I don’t think that the American electorate is collectively stupid. I think they are focused on their daily lives. Most depend on the media to help them discern the issues that require their attention. The media is generally failing in its basic responsibility.
kcom
All you have to do is read the comments on some blog posts about the IRS story.Plenty of “liberal” commenters don’t see anything wrong with what went on. As long as it punishes their enemies they’re happy.
I also noticed that. It is not a good sign for our country.
oldflyer
First, at least Klein gave some ink to the issue. But, I wonder if he was serious when he alleged that no corruption was found in the stimulus give away.
The Stimulus funds went disproportionately to areas and constituencies that voted for Obama. ‘Nuff said.
P.S.–I am particularly impressed about the lack of coverage of or interest in the fate of film maker Nikoula, the guy who supposedly made the “Innocence of Muslims” video that the Administration tried to blame Benghazi on.
From what I can gather Nikoula has a record and was on probation on some sort of fraud conviction, and as one of his probation terms he was not supposed to use computers, and presumably did so in making this video.
From the reportage I’ve seen it is really unclear just who this Nikoula really is–what his true name and nationality is, and just who was involved in making this video. Moreover, we have no information as to how this particular obscure and little-watched video came to the attention of the Administration. Could it have been some sort of a set up from the get-go?
Apparently, from on line comments made by people claiming law enforcement background, it is very rare for someone to be picked up for such a minor probation violation, and especially very publically picked up (who, for instance, notified the media to be there for the pickup?) in the middle of the night by a half dozen cops, much less to be tried–was their some sort of trial or hearing in Nikoula’s case? I never saw a report of any–and then to be thrown back in jail for a long sentence such as the year that Nikoula is reportedly serving in a jail in a remote area of Texas. What were the discussions between Washington and local authorities, who ordered Nikoula picked up and prosecuted, and who in Washington was doing the ordering?
As I see it this guy is, in actuality, more a “political prisoner” than anything else–picked up on a technicality and given excessive punishment for his political views and for the convenience of the Obama administration–remember those news stories quoting Hillary as vowing to the relatives of the four murdered men that they would “get” and punish the guy whose video she said caused their deaths?
What I can’t understand is how people can’t connect the dots, and realize that Nikoula’s arrest and punishment demonstrates that, if it suits their interests, this Administration can scoop up anyone and slap them in jail–be it on a arguably legitimate minor charge, or on a trumped up one–for instance, couldn’t they use the government generated warnings about how dangerous “anti-government”–see also the IRS, “fundamentalist Christian,” or ”ex-military” types were as sufficient justification to pick someone up–simply because of their political beliefs or for “the convenience of this particular government”?
We are supposed to have the “Rule of Law” in this country, but as this case so ably demonstrates–as does the Black Panther Case, the treatment of George Zimmerman, and so many other examples–that is just a fiction for the Obama Administration.
A recent poll shockingly revealed that fully 42% of those polled do not know that Obamacare is current law. 23% admit they just don’t know if it is law. 12% think it was repealed by Congress. 7% say it was overturned by the Supreme Court.
Speaking of the Supreme Court, Chris Cillizza featured on his WaPo blog a poll which showed that Thurgood Marshall, a man who has been dead for 20 years, is thought by 8% of those polled to be the current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Similarly, 4% thought Harry Reid, a man who has never been a judge, let alone a Supreme Court justice, is the Court’s Chief Justice. The silver lining is that 53% of the people polled were honest enough to say they had no clue who the Chief Justice is.
I really don’t understand how we can be so willfully ignorant about politics and be so politically polarized at the same time. It does not make sense to me. More importantly, I don’t see how a country founded and organized around the principle of self-government can have such a politically apathetic electorate. Luckily, the issues we can’t be bothered to inform ourselves about have created so much polarization that we don’t have to worry about a tyrant capitalizing on our willful ignorance to seize power.
kcom,
The partisan Dems’ ethical perspective is not based on right or wrong, or even better or worse. Their basic perspective is with us or against us, even if the Dems and GOP are congruent on an issue. Note I spotlight the Dems, and not liberals or even the left, the latter two implying principled stances.
Principled leftists have also been dismayed that issues they protested vigorously alongside Dems when Bush was President have become non-issues for Dems and the media with Obama as President.
I’ve run across the us versus them mindset every time I’ve debated partisan Dems on the Iraq mission. My view of the Iraq mission is informed by the case based on Saddam’s guilt and the strong congruity between Clinton and Bush’s Iraq policies, including Clinton’s contemporary support for Bush. Yet partisan Dems will dismiss Saddam’s role and ignore the Clinton/Bush congruity in order blame Bush out of context.
The most important thing is to – at the outset – set the proper contextual frame. If you don’t, they will.
They would take note, and scream like banshees, if it were a GOP prez.
Groty,
“More importantly, I don’t see how a country founded and organized around the principle of self-government can have such a politically apathetic electorate.”
Because we had more than 1 influence in our founding. Locke vs Rousseau. Our nation’s founding drew from the English and French enlightenments. We’ve always had the tension between an individualist and collectivist view of the American social contract.
We’ve been trending toward collectivism. Rousseau’s general will is defined by the lawgivers; it is not derived from the individual interest or even sum of individual interests. Once we accepted Rousseau’s notion of the general will as our chief governing principle, then we accepted that our individual political responsibility only extended as far as choosing our legislators and governors, our lawgivers. They hold the general will, which includes the power to define the general will, while legislation and governance are beyond the purview of us individual citizens.
Rousseau’s general will in mild form promotes civid cuty. Extended to its logical end, it becomes a Communist dictatorship. In a democracy, it leads to an electorate that is politically tribal because their only political power is to elect lawgivers, while they have no feeling that the individual citizen has any political power over law and governance. That’s how “we can be so willfully ignorant about politics and be so politically polarized at the same time”.
“civid cuty” * civic duty
I was hoping for a picture of the civid cuty.
Nice analysis of the body politic, Eric. I am a devotee of Locke in theory; but, apparently a product of Rousseau’s theories in that I have become totally tribal with respect to things political.
Wolla Dalbo you have hit the nail on the head. something I might elaborate upon – I’ve noticed even if it’s reported, the average person is unable to understand or recognize the usurpations of liberty and unconstitutional activities as a bad thing. And you can’t even get the message across when you explain it in simple terms. As long nobody arrests THEM, there’s no problem, and it seems they feel ignorance of the issues is the same as immunity from them. People just seem to have faith that not worrying about things means it will all be ok. There’s a deep seated belief that nothing bad will ever happen, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a kook or a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Oldflyer,
Sadly, Locke’s foundational premise for individual liberty may be flawed. It’s been a while and I wasn’t a Philosophy major, but I’m tempted to take a closer look at Hobbes’s and Locke’s states of nature. I think Locke may have pulled a sleight of hand in order to lay a foundation for his constitutional arguments.
Southpaw–I think you have pointed out another very important aspect of the current psychological/intellectual climate that affects the great mass of our citizenry.
Contrary to the situation in much of the world, and especially in Europe, the Middle East, China, and Japan, we here in the U.S. do not have a thousand or two thousand plus year’s long, chaotic, and violent history, full of wars, revolutions, attempted–or successful, tyrannies, starvation, economic collapse, mass death and destruction, assassinations, usurpations, violent insurrections, etc. that have passed–back and forth– across our landscape, whose memories and lessons have embedded themselves in our history and our consciousness. Moreover, we have been extremely fortunate to not have been invaded or had a major land attack against us for a very long time; we have not had those experiences and that history and the psychology, attitudes, orientation, and expectations that such a long, turbulent, and violent history creates. Anyone having direct memory of the horrors and deprivations of our Civil War with its more than 600,000 dead and its immense destruction is now dead, WWI and WWII were fought “over there,” and since WWII, and despite a number of foreign wars, we have generally enjoyed a magical, 150 year reign of peace here at home.
Thus, our mostly ahistorical citizenry goes along in blissful ignorance with the thought that “it can’t happen here,” that such violence, chaos, deception, and evil just don’t happen here–can’t happen here– in the good old U.S. of A. and, given this mindset, they don’t recognize–and don’t want to recognize and, perhaps, can’t recognize–the warning signs when they appear, warning signs that would raise the hackles of anyone coming from the “old countries.”
Thus, the articles you see from time to time, quoting people who have fled Communist countries and various tyrannies and dictatorships who now say they see the warning signs of the very things they fled recurring here, in what they though was to be their safe haven.
Southpaw.
GREAT!
Been wondering how to put something wandering around in my head when talking to some libs I know.
ignorance = immunity.
Pays to not listen to conservatives, then.
Added to the virtue of holy innocent ignorance evinced by The Kids forty-fifty years ago.
Wide-eyed, bewildered horror at something they don’t like; “oh wow.”
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All you have to do is read the comments on some blog posts about the IRS story. Plenty of “liberal” commenters don’t see anything wrong with what went on. As long as it punishes their enemies they’re happy. The fact that they’re too short-sighted to see the long-term implications of moving the government in that direction (and the Pandora’s Box that it would open for both sides of the political spectrum) proves they’re pretty stupid. Sorry, George.
George Will asked, “Just how stupid do they think we are.”
Unfortunately, I am coming to the conclusion that so many people here in the U.S. are either thoroughly propagandized by the Left and/or deliberately ill-educated, are so deep in denial, or are so focused on TV or sports trivia, and still get all of their information from the MSM, that they are unable and/or unwilling to see, comprehend, or to understand the gravity and danger of the actions of the Obama administration–things like Benghazi, and the IRS targeting Obama’s political opponents merely the most recent and most blatant–which are staring to form an extraordinarily dangerous pattern–as we see more and more evidence of Obama and Co. acquiring and actively using the tools of Tyranny.
So, “how stupid do they really think we are?” It’s looking more and more like, on average, really, really stupid and really, really oblivious, and Obama & Co. look like they are, unfortunately, right.
So, no matter how blatant, no matter how wrong, illegal, and threatening to our Constitution and to our personal Freedoms and our Liberty the actions of Obama and his administration are, if a sufficient number of citizens are not aware of them and see them as problems, do not comprehend what is at stake, see them as mortal threats to the country and Republic and, ultimately, to them personally and, then, get angry, and form a growing chorus, tirelessly agitating for investigations and justice, that dog just won’t hunt.
A couple of thoughts tickled my consciousness.
First, at least Klein gave some ink to the issue. But, I wonder if he was serious when he alleged that no corruption was found in the stimulus give away. We know that hundreds of millions of taxpayer’s dollars went to “green” companies whose Executives were major donors to Obama. I guess to meet Klein’s corruption threshold, Obama would need to deliver that money in a black bag deep in a dark alley.
Second. The perps in the IRS scandal need to face a lot more serious punishment than firing. The need to be prosecuted relentlessly. In addition the evidence must be followed up the chain of command and anyone who encouraged, or condoned, this travesty must be subjected to appropriate sanctions as well. This involves the fundamental issues of abuse of personal freedom , as well as the abuse of government power.
I don’t think that the American electorate is collectively stupid. I think they are focused on their daily lives. Most depend on the media to help them discern the issues that require their attention. The media is generally failing in its basic responsibility.
kcom
I also noticed that. It is not a good sign for our country.
oldflyer
The Stimulus funds went disproportionately to areas and constituencies that voted for Obama. ‘Nuff said.
P.S.–I am particularly impressed about the lack of coverage of or interest in the fate of film maker Nikoula, the guy who supposedly made the “Innocence of Muslims” video that the Administration tried to blame Benghazi on.
From what I can gather Nikoula has a record and was on probation on some sort of fraud conviction, and as one of his probation terms he was not supposed to use computers, and presumably did so in making this video.
From the reportage I’ve seen it is really unclear just who this Nikoula really is–what his true name and nationality is, and just who was involved in making this video. Moreover, we have no information as to how this particular obscure and little-watched video came to the attention of the Administration. Could it have been some sort of a set up from the get-go?
Apparently, from on line comments made by people claiming law enforcement background, it is very rare for someone to be picked up for such a minor probation violation, and especially very publically picked up (who, for instance, notified the media to be there for the pickup?) in the middle of the night by a half dozen cops, much less to be tried–was their some sort of trial or hearing in Nikoula’s case? I never saw a report of any–and then to be thrown back in jail for a long sentence such as the year that Nikoula is reportedly serving in a jail in a remote area of Texas. What were the discussions between Washington and local authorities, who ordered Nikoula picked up and prosecuted, and who in Washington was doing the ordering?
As I see it this guy is, in actuality, more a “political prisoner” than anything else–picked up on a technicality and given excessive punishment for his political views and for the convenience of the Obama administration–remember those news stories quoting Hillary as vowing to the relatives of the four murdered men that they would “get” and punish the guy whose video she said caused their deaths?
What I can’t understand is how people can’t connect the dots, and realize that Nikoula’s arrest and punishment demonstrates that, if it suits their interests, this Administration can scoop up anyone and slap them in jail–be it on a arguably legitimate minor charge, or on a trumped up one–for instance, couldn’t they use the government generated warnings about how dangerous “anti-government”–see also the IRS, “fundamentalist Christian,” or ”ex-military” types were as sufficient justification to pick someone up–simply because of their political beliefs or for “the convenience of this particular government”?
We are supposed to have the “Rule of Law” in this country, but as this case so ably demonstrates–as does the Black Panther Case, the treatment of George Zimmerman, and so many other examples–that is just a fiction for the Obama Administration.
A recent poll shockingly revealed that fully 42% of those polled do not know that Obamacare is current law. 23% admit they just don’t know if it is law. 12% think it was repealed by Congress. 7% say it was overturned by the Supreme Court.
Speaking of the Supreme Court, Chris Cillizza featured on his WaPo blog a poll which showed that Thurgood Marshall, a man who has been dead for 20 years, is thought by 8% of those polled to be the current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Similarly, 4% thought Harry Reid, a man who has never been a judge, let alone a Supreme Court justice, is the Court’s Chief Justice. The silver lining is that 53% of the people polled were honest enough to say they had no clue who the Chief Justice is.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/03/29/the-best-supreme-court-chart-ever/
I really don’t understand how we can be so willfully ignorant about politics and be so politically polarized at the same time. It does not make sense to me. More importantly, I don’t see how a country founded and organized around the principle of self-government can have such a politically apathetic electorate. Luckily, the issues we can’t be bothered to inform ourselves about have created so much polarization that we don’t have to worry about a tyrant capitalizing on our willful ignorance to seize power.
kcom,
The partisan Dems’ ethical perspective is not based on right or wrong, or even better or worse. Their basic perspective is with us or against us, even if the Dems and GOP are congruent on an issue. Note I spotlight the Dems, and not liberals or even the left, the latter two implying principled stances.
Principled leftists have also been dismayed that issues they protested vigorously alongside Dems when Bush was President have become non-issues for Dems and the media with Obama as President.
I’ve run across the us versus them mindset every time I’ve debated partisan Dems on the Iraq mission. My view of the Iraq mission is informed by the case based on Saddam’s guilt and the strong congruity between Clinton and Bush’s Iraq policies, including Clinton’s contemporary support for Bush. Yet partisan Dems will dismiss Saddam’s role and ignore the Clinton/Bush congruity in order blame Bush out of context.
The most important thing is to – at the outset – set the proper contextual frame. If you don’t, they will.
They would take note, and scream like banshees, if it were a GOP prez.
Groty,
“More importantly, I don’t see how a country founded and organized around the principle of self-government can have such a politically apathetic electorate.”
Because we had more than 1 influence in our founding. Locke vs Rousseau. Our nation’s founding drew from the English and French enlightenments. We’ve always had the tension between an individualist and collectivist view of the American social contract.
We’ve been trending toward collectivism. Rousseau’s general will is defined by the lawgivers; it is not derived from the individual interest or even sum of individual interests. Once we accepted Rousseau’s notion of the general will as our chief governing principle, then we accepted that our individual political responsibility only extended as far as choosing our legislators and governors, our lawgivers. They hold the general will, which includes the power to define the general will, while legislation and governance are beyond the purview of us individual citizens.
Rousseau’s general will in mild form promotes civid cuty. Extended to its logical end, it becomes a Communist dictatorship. In a democracy, it leads to an electorate that is politically tribal because their only political power is to elect lawgivers, while they have no feeling that the individual citizen has any political power over law and governance. That’s how “we can be so willfully ignorant about politics and be so politically polarized at the same time”.
“civid cuty” * civic duty
I was hoping for a picture of the civid cuty.
Nice analysis of the body politic, Eric. I am a devotee of Locke in theory; but, apparently a product of Rousseau’s theories in that I have become totally tribal with respect to things political.
Wolla Dalbo you have hit the nail on the head. something I might elaborate upon – I’ve noticed even if it’s reported, the average person is unable to understand or recognize the usurpations of liberty and unconstitutional activities as a bad thing. And you can’t even get the message across when you explain it in simple terms. As long nobody arrests THEM, there’s no problem, and it seems they feel ignorance of the issues is the same as immunity from them. People just seem to have faith that not worrying about things means it will all be ok. There’s a deep seated belief that nothing bad will ever happen, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a kook or a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
Oldflyer,
Sadly, Locke’s foundational premise for individual liberty may be flawed. It’s been a while and I wasn’t a Philosophy major, but I’m tempted to take a closer look at Hobbes’s and Locke’s states of nature. I think Locke may have pulled a sleight of hand in order to lay a foundation for his constitutional arguments.
Southpaw–I think you have pointed out another very important aspect of the current psychological/intellectual climate that affects the great mass of our citizenry.
Contrary to the situation in much of the world, and especially in Europe, the Middle East, China, and Japan, we here in the U.S. do not have a thousand or two thousand plus year’s long, chaotic, and violent history, full of wars, revolutions, attempted–or successful, tyrannies, starvation, economic collapse, mass death and destruction, assassinations, usurpations, violent insurrections, etc. that have passed–back and forth– across our landscape, whose memories and lessons have embedded themselves in our history and our consciousness. Moreover, we have been extremely fortunate to not have been invaded or had a major land attack against us for a very long time; we have not had those experiences and that history and the psychology, attitudes, orientation, and expectations that such a long, turbulent, and violent history creates. Anyone having direct memory of the horrors and deprivations of our Civil War with its more than 600,000 dead and its immense destruction is now dead, WWI and WWII were fought “over there,” and since WWII, and despite a number of foreign wars, we have generally enjoyed a magical, 150 year reign of peace here at home.
Thus, our mostly ahistorical citizenry goes along in blissful ignorance with the thought that “it can’t happen here,” that such violence, chaos, deception, and evil just don’t happen here–can’t happen here– in the good old U.S. of A. and, given this mindset, they don’t recognize–and don’t want to recognize and, perhaps, can’t recognize–the warning signs when they appear, warning signs that would raise the hackles of anyone coming from the “old countries.”
Thus, the articles you see from time to time, quoting people who have fled Communist countries and various tyrannies and dictatorships who now say they see the warning signs of the very things they fled recurring here, in what they though was to be their safe haven.
Southpaw.
GREAT!
Been wondering how to put something wandering around in my head when talking to some libs I know.
ignorance = immunity.
Pays to not listen to conservatives, then.
Added to the virtue of holy innocent ignorance evinced by The Kids forty-fifty years ago.
Wide-eyed, bewildered horror at something they don’t like; “oh wow.”