August 26th, 2014

Victor Davis Hanson on the madness of America in 2008

I usually agree with Victor Davis Hanson, and admire his writing. But this time I think he’s somewhat off base.

His article is about how America went slightly mad in 2008 when it believed in hope and change and voted for Obama, whose record didn’t indicate all that much to adulate. But Hanson not only leaves out many of the signs that Obama would be exactly the kind of president he has turned out to be, making the madness of the US voter in 2008 even worse than his article says, but his emphasis on 2008 seems strange to me.

It is a whole lot easier to understand how the voter was fooled in 2008 by Obama the smooth-talking newcomer who was (as he himself said) a blank screen on which people could project what they wanted, than to understand America’s much greater insanity in 2012, when that screen had been filled in with the picture of a lying leftist con man.

Hanson also says that America has now woken up; at least that’s what the article’s subtitle indicates. But has it? It has, but not enough for me—not nearly enough. Obama’s poll numbers would have to be down around 20 or so to convince me. What’s more, Hillary Clinton’s would have to be down there in the sub-basement, too.

I hate to sound so pessimistic. And I’m not completely pessimistic; at least there has finally been some disgust with Obama’s presidency; I’ve heard it myself. But I’m not with Hanson on this one.

55 Responses to “Victor Davis Hanson on the madness of America in 2008”

  1. NeoConScum Says:

    2008 left me stunned. More than enough was up there to ‘Get’ Obama. However, after the election and some time to lick my wounds and recover I “Got” how this fiction had happened. Then I girded for the ‘reveal’ of what I believed was there. The Cairo speech in Spring ’09 was a huge ‘tell’ for the vapor breathers…But, like so much of Obama’s more and more brazen moves, it made no impression on anyone but us conservatives. Oh, and America’s enemies were listening closely and high-fiving.

    My confidence level in ‘Stopping Him’ was smacked profoundly by Chief Justice Roberts’ judgment that the the socialized medicine debacle was a tax and therefore constitutional. But, the 2012 horror left me completely stunned. A voting majority had become truly ignorant pinheads. They saw what I saw and re-elected him?!?! They chose the mendacious narcissist over the obvious ADULT Problem Solver?!?! I’m barely past the gasping of November 2012.

    So, as a longtime reader of VDH’s books and columns I agree with him. That said, I agree with you as well, Neo. ((-:

  2. DM Says:

    The average American today is either a fat sloth strung out on government assistance or a liberal do-gooder who lives in a bubble, divorced from all reality. With these two subspecies making up the majority of voters today I have lost all hope of this country.

    So nothing really surprises me no matter how bad things get, no matter how many bad results happen as a direct result of insane policies, no matter who gets elected to office. We are past the point of no return.

  3. Don Carlos Says:

    The Roberts “Tax, thus Constitutional” decision and the justification of its logic bears some reflection now, as symptomatic of a transmissible mental disorder that afflicts our country and the world.

  4. zipper Says:

    Agree with DM.

    As Diana West said no matter how bad you think it is, you don’t know the half of it.

  5. George Says:

    Fortunately we have the 22nd Amendment. Without that he might be President for Life.

  6. Don Carlos Says:

    George-
    Fortunately, he’s getting tired of having to golf at Andrews AFB.

  7. jack Says:

    Look at it from a die hard dem view … what’s your choice … vote for a repub … ain’t gona happen!

  8. jack Says:

    And this “independent/swing voter” at least in the 2008/2012 election is a myth. When they get to ballot box they swing to their party.

  9. Harold Says:

    The 2010 election wave came as a surprise to everyone so it’s possible that Hanson is correct and the folks are waking up. On the other hand if the 2014 elections are weak then I’d think that the lefts “march through the institutions” has succeeded. In any case we need to wait and watch.

  10. T Says:

    “Hanson also says that America has now woken up; at least that’s what the article’s subtitle indicates. But has it?”

    On the one hand, as Harold points out above, the 2010 (and possibly the 2014) elections might indicate that there has been some awakening. Still, when the polls show that Obama is considered a failure but that Americans would be quick to vote for Hillary Clinton, who espouses most of the same Obama goals, then one must question of we really aren’t just outright nuts as a population, or is it that the American public is just very easily conned (shades of P.T. Barnum).

    As for the continuing survival of Obama’s approval rates, I pay them little mind. IMO they represent 95% of the black population of the us, 99% of all reporters and a percentage of leftist limosine-liberals who would say exactly that in public to assuage their white-liberal guilt regardless of how they really feel.

  11. Oldflyer Says:

    Pessimism seems like a rational response to the events of the past six years.

    There is a glimmer of hope in the sense that Obama and his crew have been so very arrogant, that they have alienated key elements of “big media”. This meshes with the fact that they have been so inept that not only the so called news and opinion media, but the comedic voices have begun to mock him. When you lose the comedians, then even the low information voters start to notice.

    One reason for persistent pessimism, however, is that he who controls the “free stuff” conduit wields the clout. So, I fear that future elections will simply be contests for control of the power to give away resources confiscated from tax paying citizens. Politicians, regardless of party label, pander; and Obama and the Democrats have sketched a road map to successful campaigns. Free Stuff.

    On another level, is it cause for optimism to believe that Obama’s feckless foreign policy is going to end in a violent wake up call for Americans? “War weary” Americans could well find their evening entertainment dampened with depressing images of our military fighting to regain that which was squandered. Dude! Who benefits then?

    I wonder if there is anything to the rumor that the Defense Department is issuing sandals and flip flops to Special Operations troops because Obama promised that there would be “no boots on the ground” in Syria or Iraq?

    This is all making me silly.

  12. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    I too generally agree with Hanson, and I too admire his writing. And I too think he’s ‘somewhat’ off base but perhaps a bit less than neo.

    Arguably, 2008 was the confirming event that America had officially ‘gone off the rails’ by placing Obama’s racial mixture far above his lack of qualifications, history and stated beliefs.

    I think Hanson may be saying that it is because America has clearly gone “slightly mad” that the 2012 election was foreordained. As to vote for Obama in 2008 and not in 2012 is to admit, ultimately to being wrong in one’s liberal beliefs. For to believe that one was simply fooled by a conman is to deny the truth that someone cannot sell you something that you’re not ready to buy. There’s a reason why ‘pride goeth before the fall’ and if there’s one thing liberals are self-righteously proud about, it’s in the ‘rightness’ of their beliefs. They are certain that they are the ‘good guys’ because they care and intentions are the ultimate proof of ‘goodness’.

    I agree that the polls prove that an electorally significant minority of Americans have not awoken. But Hanson may be simply ‘jumping the gun’ (starting pistol). Politically, Obama is skating on very thin ice, which may be why he’s golfing so much. Avoidance being a form of denial.

    If he issues an executive order granting amnesty it will ignite a political firestorm. The flood of Mexican gang members is, sooner than later, going to erupt in the public sphere. ISIS will visit NYC and ISIS has just secured MANPADS in Syria.

    “no threat is more serious to aviation than man-portable air defense systems” (MANPADS) Secretary of State Colin Powell, addressing the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, October 2003

    President Truman’s “The buck stops here” slogan was not mere hyperbole. The President gets both the credit for the good and the blame when things go badly wrong.

    IF things do go really wrong in the next year, his support numbers may well fall into the 20′s. Those who voted for Obama in 2012 will never decide that Obama is a leftist version of George W. Bush but they can still decide that he’s another Carter…

  13. Doom Says:

    I just so happen to agree with your assessment. At this point, I don’t think Americans honestly care. Oh, sure, there are some on the right and left who have real goals, are pushing as they can, and want specific things. The rest are just walking around in a herd, hoping the grass gets, or stays, green where they are. If most Americans worry, it is about their patch of grass, and any they are eyeing, but only in the absolute here and now. Moo.

  14. Artfldgr Says:

    I hate to sound so pessimistic. And I’m not completely pessimistic; at least there has finally been some disgust with Obama’s presidency; I’ve heard it myself. But I’m not with Hanson on this one.

    its not being pessimistic if you are being realistic.

    if you think of pessimism and optimism, they are a skewing of reality either toward the positive, or towards the negative… both are technically delusional as reality is what it is, whether you like it or not like it, or think that its good or bad…

    Once upon the time there was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. “Such bad luck,” they said sympathetically.

    “Maybe,” the farmer replied.

    The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. “How wonderful,” the neighbors exclaimed.

    “Maybe,” replied the old man.

    The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

    “Maybe,” answered the farmer.

    The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son’s leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

    “Maybe,” said the farmer.

    unlike pessimists or optimists the farmer in the Zen Koan understands the real nature of the reality we live in…

    the zeitgeist bs of that pessimissim/optimism coin is that we feel we HAVE to pick a side… but that means reality is the razor thin edge we try to balance the coin on.. yes its easier to pick one side or another, and just go about your business… but note… that is counterproductive as reality is what you have to live in, not a skewed reality you believe… if you invest pessimissm or optimism will cause you to lose lots of money… they are maladapted..

  15. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Not moo. Sheep. Sheeple. There’s also a huge degree of what is known as “normalcy bias”. Psychologists and sociologists assert it to be part of human nature. It’s a form of willful denial. People know that things are ‘dicey’ but thinking about it just leads to anxiety. The hope is that it will all resolve itself by the people paid to think about it.

    It may also be less that people don’t care as much as the perfectly normal focus on their everyday concerns and a general feeling of helplessness in affecting the larger issues.

  16. kevino Says:

    I agree that 2008 was bad and that 2012 was worse. The MSM ignored the serious issues facing the country and turned the election into a popularity contest. They chose the GOP candidate by destroying Gov. Romney’s opposition, and then they destroyed him.

    RE: “I hate to sound so pessimistic. And I’m not completely pessimistic; at least there has finally been some disgust with Obama’s presidency; I’ve heard it myself.”
    I’m much more pessimistic:
    1. The ability of the MSM to control the agenda and focus the limited attention of the American people is truly staggering.
    2. Some of the disgust with the Obama Presidency comes from the left who finally realize how lazy he is. They like is goals; they just was him to achieve more.
    3. The ability of the left to steal elections is stronger than ever. Illegal immigration is going to take this to a whole new level.
    4. The goal is to provide direct assistance to most Americans. We are getting to that point. When that happens, there won’t be any competitive elections for President or Senator in most places.
    5. More power is being concentrated in the Presidency, and republicans may never win the White House again — ever. [see reasons above.]
    6. I see Sec. Hillary Clinton winning the Presidency in a walk. Many women will demand a female President, and nothing will stop them. As bad as the 2012 election was, the 2016 election for Hillary will be much worse.
    7. First Gentleman Bill Clinton.

  17. T Says:

    ““normalcy bias”. . . . People know that things are ‘dicey’ but thinking about it just leads to anxiety”

    The devil you know vs the devil you don’t know; aka the inertia of the status quo

  18. DerHahn Says:

    For me 2012 proved our situation is going to have to be come far more dire than it already is to wake up enough people to change course. It’s been thirty years since culturally conservative ‘Regan Democrats’ elected a GOP president, and the majority of them are gone now. With the Baby Boomers aging into government dependency via Social Security they are going to become more insulated from the practical effects of their policy prescriptions, as well as ever more fearful of having their support cut off, and they will continue reliving their glory days by voting for Democrats. The only younger voters really motivated to turn out are those with a vested interest in the maintaining Obama style government. Very few of the younger voters not benefiting are able, or willing, to draw the connection between support for Obama style policies and their current situation.

    The MSM pivot away from Obama is one that should be expected. Rejecting him at this point is necessary to build the ground work for the next liberal messiah.

  19. Rachelle Says:

    40% approval is depressing, but if you take out the 13% black population (who approve of him no matter what), the number is closer to 27%, still too high for a presumably educated and rational country, but looking better.

  20. Cornhead Says:

    1. VDH and Neo are two of my favorites.

    2. I think the 2014 and 2016 elections may be the most important since 1864.

    3. It will be an electoral war and the Republicans need to be prepared for massive voter fraud. See Hugh Hewitt on this point.

    Woman are the key and that “special interest group” can’t get played like Blacks, Hispanics and Asians were in 2012.

    Message to women: Hillary is Obama’s and Bill’s third term.

  21. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    “its not being pessimistic if you are being realistic.”

    I had the same thought.

    But regarding the farmer, how is it anything but good luck that he ended up with three extra horses and a son immune from conscription?

    More to the point, pessimism and optimism appear to be mutually contradictory and that is why people feel like they have to make a choice between them.

    F. Scott Fitzgerald proposed that, “The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.”

    The way you do that I believe is to resolve the two opposed ideas, as otherwise something cannot be true and false at the same time.

    Life is BOTH a reason for optimism and a reason for pessimism. People have BOTH wonderful and dreadful things happen to them. The birth of my daughter was a wonderful event and has been an unequivocal blessing. The coming death of my father and mother will be a dreadful test. Both are a reality and reality is a combination of both pessimistic and optimistic.

  22. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Woman are the key and that “special interest group” IS being played, just like they were in 2012.

    Robin Williams joked that,

  23. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Ahh!
    Neo, maybe its just my computer but this blog seems to acting strangely lately.

    To finish; Robin Williams joked that, “If women ran the world we wouldn’t have wars, just intense negotiations every 28 days.”

    It appears that democrats ‘get’ women better than republicans, at least when it comes to manipulation.

  24. Old Rebel Says:

    People voted for Obama because they were sick of the Neocon Wars.

    Of course, candidate George W. Bush promised an end to Clinton’s interventions:

    “If we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we’re going to have a serious problem coming down the road. And I’m going to prevent that.”

    Seems no matter whom we vote for, we get more wars. Ike was on to something.

  25. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr at 12:55 PM:

    From Kipling’s “If”:

    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same…

  26. T Says:

    ““If we don’t stop extending our troops all around the world . . . .”

    The problem with that philosophy is that it is based on a time when international isolationism was possible. Weapons were too cumbersome to be easily transported across half the globe and the transportation, itself, was slow. Interdiction was much easier then and we could be isolated from an adversary that we would never encounter.

    Now, small numbers of fanatic individuals of any stripe can do major damage and they can do so anywhere on the face of the earth. Remember 9/11 and its aftershocks were caused by only 30 individuals. All isolationism does today is give your enemy the opportunity to attack you on your own turf in his own good time.

    Nature abhors a vacuum and if the U.S. does not exert it’s hegemony across the globe, then someone else will and it’s more than likely that such a someone will be a type unfriendly to an American way of life (Putin, Al Baghdadi, China, North Korea, etc.). I don’t ever want to see my wife in a burqa nor would I feel comfortable dressed in a Mao jacket or thinking like a Kim Jong Un sycophant. It has ceased to become a cavalier ideological choice; it is now a matter of existential self-preservation. Where Israel now is, we could soon be.

  27. Sharon W Says:

    “its not being pessimistic if you are being realistic.”

    I believe my faith girds me in reality. I am a natural-born pessimist, but my hope for the future at hand looks to historical events, including God’s willingness to spare Sodom & Gomorrah if 10 righteous people could be found and that ultimately, “He has a plan.” I believe that ALL of our problems are predicated upon moral bankruptcy. It seems to me about 20 years ago, in general, people understood what theft or adultery were, whether or not they attended church or synagogue. I think that is what has changed. A false belief that our problems are economic and a moral confusion. My prayers focus on the populace waking once again to recognizing the truth in the 10 commandments–that’s when real hope and change will emerge.

  28. T Says:

    My problem with the Sodom and Gomorrah story is that they couldn’t find 10 righteous people. Now that’s something to think about.

  29. Sharon W Says:

    T–Lot’s own household made up 10 people. Some thought he was drunk, and should sleep it off.

  30. Range of Light Says:

    G. Britain nailed it, I’m afraid, with the Democrats “getting women..” observation. Maybe Robin Williams did too. My longtime observation is that if a woman had an alcoholic Daddy the chances of her being a blind, Liberal democrat are around 98%. Toss in the other variables like feelings, emotions, senses, fairness, etc. and you get the non-critical thinking menstrual class. That they simply cannot wait to dimple chads for the(then) 69-year old Hillary and her—to any thinking observer—absolute ties to the horrific Obama Administration’s record leaves one’s head shaking.

  31. T Says:

    It just dawned on me that what I described in my comment above (@2:55 PM) was no less than the Duchy of Grand Fenwick coming into possession of the Q Bomb (see: The Mouse that Roared).

    Life imitates art.

  32. T Says:

    Range of Light,

    I understand what you are saying, but I caution against writing of stereotypes as though they were absolute. For example, I would not put our hostess is that category if only based upon her analysis that I have read on this blog. And this is not a matter of simply agreeing with her points of view (or her with mine). Likewise, there are numerous women, both nationally known, and that I know personally who, IMO, would not fit into this “non-critical thinking menstrual class.”

    That all women who think like that are Democrats may be in great part true, but not all women think like that.

  33. Range of Light Says:

    Be assured that I entirely agree, T. In legal-contract speak, I assumed what you’ve written rather than stated it. It gives me a true kick that some of the very toughest and brightest conservatives and neocons whom I have the pleasure of knowing are female. They shake their heads as strongly as I at the swill their sisters drink. An old friend on the southeast coast put me on to the wonderful Toughie who authors this site some time ago. At the studio where I work these days I’m regularly impressed by the quiet-muscular conservative beliefs held by a number of young women I know and make quietly known my own views. They see businesses fleeing our state. Their pretty, bright eyes roll at the absolute blather they regularly hear in our studio’s halls. Thank God.

  34. Old Rebel Says:

    T,

    Problem is, 9/11 was pure blowback from DC’s countless interventions in the Middle East.

    In fact, DC hasn’t practiced “isolationism” since it got into the imperial game with the Spanish-American War. Even in the period prior to WWII, DC was galumphing about in Central America (see General Smedley Butler’s account of those little escapades).

    Now we have a crushing debt, a demoralized military, and a population unwilling to pay for a worldwide garrison.

  35. neo-neocon Says:

    Old Rebel:

    You seem to buy the Islamic terrorist line that if we didn’t do A, B, or C they would leave us alone.

    Wrong. They hate not just us, but the entire western world and anyone who is not Muslim. They have made it very clear that their goal is that the entire world become Islamic, by the sword if necessary.

    Blaming the US for inspiring them is sort of like the line Hitler gave about the Jews forcing him to do what he did, which was only a reaction:

    More than thirty years have passed since 1914 when I made my modest contribution as a volunteer in the First World War, which was forced upon the Reich…

    It is untrue that I or anyone else in Germany wanted war in 1939. It was wanted and provoked solely by international statesmen either of Jewish origin or working for Jewish interests. I have made too many offers for the limitation and control of armaments, which posterity will not be cowardly enough always to disregard, for responsibility for the outbreak of this war to be placed on me. Nor have I ever wished that, after the appalling First World War, there would ever be a second against either England or America. Centuries will go by, but from the ruins of our towns and monuments the hatred of those ultimately responsible will always grow anew against the people whom we have to thank for all this: international Jewry and its henchmen.

    Yes, I suppose that western countries who keep a very low profile on the international scene and have no influence in the world whatsoever wouldn’t be attacked as we were on 9/11. But make no mistake about it, if the Islamic terrorists get their way, some day they will get around to them, too. The crocodile will just eat them last.

  36. T Says:

    Old Rebel,

    “Problem is, 9/11 was pure blowback from DC’s countless interventions in the Middle East.”

    I thoroughly disagree. IMO 9/11 was the result of an unbridled hatred of American lifestyle. This is no where more in evidence than in our culture v. Islamic culture’s attention toward women. In the U.S. women have a freedom and equality unmatched across the globe. In Islamic cultures women are temptresses who must be controlled. We are seen by Islamic standards as being immoral and depraved and most critically, non-Islamic.

    Furthermore, we still “interfere” in the affairs of, say, Europe. 70 years after WW II we still have troops ensconced there. When was the last time a German, a Norwegian, a Dutchman or a Pole beheaded a captured American journalist? So we should not protect our interests elsewhere because Islamic nutjobs threaten reprisal and then make good on their word?

    Great, give them even more credibility and power. The problem is not our so-called interference, the problem is that we consistently do it half-assed and it comes back to bite us. Start turning a couple of sharia or Isis-controlled cities into holes in the ground, say a big “F$%& you!” to the international leftists who would condemn such action and watch how quickly this nonsense would end.

  37. Eric Says:

    Neo: “You seem to buy the Islamic terrorist line that if we didn’t do A, B, or C they would leave us alone.”

    The Islamic terrorist line was bought from the likes of Old Rebel in the 1st place.

    Old Rebel points in the right direction, though, that Obama was largely elected in 2008 due to the false narrative against the Iraq mission.

  38. T Says:

    BTW, this big “F#$% you!” is exactly the strategy that Rick Perry is using against the Austin Dems who indicted him. They think he’s dumber than a bag of hammers but he’s shown himself to be more like the fox in the henhouse. Even the liberals are begrudgingly supporting him.

  39. neo-neocon Says:

    Eric:

    Well, it has been my impression that “Old Rebel” might be an old-style isolationist from the right. I could be wrong, but somehow that’s my hunch.

    On this issue, they unite with the Left, which sings the same song only louder.

  40. Eric Says:

    Add: If you can set the record straight on OIF, you can cure patient zero. If you can cure patient zero by establishing that OIF was, in fact, right on the law and justified on the policy, then you can begin the process of breaking down the cornerstone of the Dems/Left power grab with Obama.

  41. Eric Says:

    Neo,

    America First Committee, American Friends Service Committee.

  42. Eric Says:

    Add2: If you can cure patient zero by establishing that OIF was, in fact, right on the law and justified on the policy, then you can begin the process of breaking down the cornerstone of the Dems/Left power grab with Obama. … by highlighting that Obama’s presidency was won with big fundamental lies to the American people with real harmful consequences.

  43. Old Rebel Says:

    neo-neocon,

    If the 9/11 terrorists had struck BEFORE the US had overthrown governments in Syria and Iran, propped up repressive regimes in Saudi Arabia and Iran, and killed thousands of Iraqi civilians, you’d be right.

    But that’s not the timeline. DC started it all by intervening often and brutally for oil and power.

    They hate us for sticking our noses into their homelands.

    That said, I don’t intend to submit to Islamic rule, either. But DC encourages Islamic immigration into our country – another brainless and self-destructive policy from the District of Corruption.

  44. parker Says:

    The whole war for oil meme is utter BS. It is not US oil companies who have access to Iraqi oil… do a little research. Oil that we import comes primarily from Canada, Venezuela, Nigeria, and Mexico. Did I miss the invasion of those 4 countries? Has the msm conspired to hide these wars for oil?

    Yes, we have stuck our nose in the affairs of other countries and sometimes it has been for nefarious interests, but most of the time it has been for good reasons. Pax Americana has done far more good than harm. Geopolitics abhors a vacuum. Would oldrebel prefer China or Russia or the Caliphate fill that vacuum?

  45. Alan F Says:

    I was excited to read Neo’s criticism of one of my other favorite pundits. VDH reminds us of the depth and breadth of Obama’s failures, which I liked as a review. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Neo’s pessimism that “…a mind is a difficult thing to change”. DM mentions two important groups that won’t change: “… fat sloth strung out on government assistance or a liberal do-gooder who lives in a bubble…”. The do-gooders pay little attention to criticism from the other side.

  46. Old Rebel Says:

    parker,

    “1944: U.S. State Department memo refers to Middle Eastern oil as “a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history.” During U.S.-British negotiations over the control of Middle Eastern oil, President Roosevelt sketches out a map of the Middle East and tells the British Ambassador, “Persian oil is yours. We share the oil of Iraq and Kuwait. As for Saudi Arabian oil, it’s ours.” On August 8, 1944, the Anglo-American Petroleum Agreement is signed, splitting Middle Eastern oil between the U.S. and Britain.

    Between 1948 and 1960, Western capital earns $12.8 billion in profits from the production, refining and sale of Middle Eastern oil, on fixed investments totaling $1.3 billion.”

  47. neo-neocon Says:

    Old Rebel:

    You are ignoring the ancient lineage of Islamic terrorism, and arbitrarily picking a starting point for your own artificial timeline, in order to blame America. You are buying their line of excuses.

    The date 9/11, by the way, was chosen to avenge this event. But why stop there? Islam has been aggressively at war with Christianity and the rest of the non-Muslim world since it began.

  48. Old Rebel Says:

    neo-neocon,

    I thought you were joking in your previous post. But I googled “9/11 was in response to the 1683 Battle of Vienna,” and darned if you weren’t right.

  49. parker Says:

    Old rebel,

    Our meddling after WW2 was in response to the efforts of the USSR to secure control of the ME and secure warm water ports in its quest for hegemony. Iraq war 2.0 was not waged for economic gain. I was in favor of taking out Saddam, I favored arming the Kurds and sustaining them in a move to establish a robust independent Kurdistan. Why? Because it would be a thorn irritating Iran, Turkey, and the Shia and Sunnis in the rump of Iraq. And Israel would be bolstered by a strong Kurdistan.

    Unfortunately, we have leaders who do not truly think in terms of a long range effort to secure the perpetual security of Pax Americana. Again, if not us then who exercises the iron fist in the velvet glove?

  50. NeoConScum Says:

    Always amazes me that Libertarians (See Rand & Ron Paul) and American Lefties are so closely aligned in foreign affairs/military affairs outlooks and messaging. No military spending caused our massive debt, O.R. That we “provoked” the radical Islamists isn’t supportable outta the garage. Nor is the near mythical ‘killing of Arab civilians’ in the Iraq War. Suggestion: Etch Neo’s replies to you on your brain. We PROVOKED those durned isolationist Islamists..?? Read far more, O.R.

  51. parker Says:

    Old Rebel,

    Why not answer the question: who do you wish to hand over the velvet glove to; a) China, b) Russia, or c) the new calipate. Its a rather simple question of whether or not you stand on the side of western civilization or the barbarian horde. A modern day mongol horde or the beheaders of islam ain’t the way.

  52. Steve W Says:

    Anybody who thinks that the American people are going to wake up from their dream world view of politics before they get slapped up side the head good and hard by a dose of lefty caused dysfunction just ain’t paying attention!
    Reality has a way of intruding into even the most rose colored views and when this doozy hits it’s going to be a real shock. Only then will many start paying attention.

  53. Beverly Says:

    I believe that ALL of our problems are predicated upon moral bankruptcy. It seems to me about 20 years ago, in general, people understood what theft or adultery were, whether or not they attended church or synagogue. I think that is what has changed. A false belief that our problems are economic and a moral confusion. My prayers focus on the populace waking once again to recognizing the truth in the 10 commandments–that’s when real hope and change will emerge.

    Amen, sister. We need another Great Awakening in America, as we had in the olden time.

    http://www.great-awakening.com/

  54. SCOTTtheBADGER Says:

    I do not believe that when ISIS, or Al Queda strike a US metropolitan area, that it will be New York. It will be Chicago, to humiliate the Weak Horse in the White House.

  55. Bob from Virginia Says:

    Chicago! An attack there would be indistinguishable from the daily, mundane and routine mayhem.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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