Scotland…
Today’s the day.
Reading a couple of articles on the referendum, I can’t find any that discuss an issue that particularly concerns me: is this a simple majority vote? Although no article I’ve found directly says so, it seems to be the case, because the vote is described as very close at a near 50-50 split.
Which brings us to my bigger question: should such a momentous decision be made by a simple majority of voters on a single day, at a single point in time? My answer would not be “yes.”
But I suppose it depends how much you believe in a pure democracy. I do not trust it overly; I fear the tyranny of the overbearing majority that Madison feared. Apparently the Scots have no such trepidation.
So, this is the sort of thing Scotland will get:
Conor Matchett, 19, a philosophy student at the University of Edinburgh, said he was both nervous and optimistic about the outcome after voting Yes.
“I want change. It’s as simple as that,” he said. “I believe a Yes vote is the only way to do that.”
Matchett, originally from York, in Northern England, but granted a vote in Scotland’s referendum on the grounds of his residency here, said he was voting to counter what he felt was the continuing politics of austerity from British politicians down south in Westminster.
“They are attacking the welfare state and many other things that people in Scotland hold really dear,” he said.
There is no way on earth a 19-year-old college student, attending school in Scotland but actually from York, should have a say in this matter. Hope/change; sound familiar? “Simple as that.”
And if 19-year-old college students from York can vote on whether Scotland should remain part of Great Britain, why not 16-year-olds? Where did I get that idea from? Why, from reality, that’s where:
A massive turnout of around 4.2 million Scots, about 97% of eligible voters, is expected, and residents as young as 16 have been granted permission to vote in the referendum.
Hey, why not 12-year-olds? They’re people, too.
Not sure what age limit is for this vote in Ireland but NPR was interviewing 16/17 year olds asking them how they would vote.
My assistant here at the office had her friend who is a health insurance agent come into the office a while ago. She is an American citizen who emigrated from Scotland and with the Obamacare issues at the forefront we had a discussion about such matters. She was emphatic about how corrupt socialism is to the culture. She spoke at length about the mentality of expectation and the lack of work ethic. She believes that our lax immigration issues drive the welfare and social politics of our country. On the other hand, I was in Barcelona for a week this month and I was amazed at the patriotism among those that consider themselves Catalans, not Spanish. Their thrust toward independence stems from their view of the Spanish as indolent and corrupt in taxation–not to mention the long history of conquest of that area by the Spaniards. In that area, Catalan is spoken and everything is written in both languages. There was definite evidence of preference for all things Catalonian. I will say, they were the hardest working people with the best value for the dollar compared to my other experiences in Europe 1996-to present (France–all over, twice; Italy, and Ireland).
I hope YES wins. Scotland is said by all to be way more leftist than England, and eats more tax revs than it generates for the UK. I say, get out of the Scots’ way. What’s unity good for for England? Grouse hunting on the moors? Let the Scottish Hope and Change crowd endure lean rations…and what will happen? The aggrieved Scots will “illegally” migrate to England, allegedly in search of jobs. Sound familiar?
Shetland and the Orkney islands want to secede from Scotland and remain in the UK. These islands have some 10% of the remaining North Sea oil so the Scots will never let them go.
Ever notice that most famous Scots made their marks on the world outside Scotland?
On the economics, a YES vote will cripple Scottish socialism since London has to top up the accounts every year.
Further, the insane oil production/ extraction taxes have shut down drilling into new horizons. Consequently, the revenues from that sector can only crater.
One should look to see extraction taxes drop by more than 13% year over year, compounding away as time goes by.
The ONLY reason that it looks like oil taxes might cover Scotland’s nut is because they were massively ramped up — recently.
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Behind all of this I smell the SVR/ KGB.
The EXACT SAME insane increase in extraction taxes was enacted in Ukraine.
Both nations are serious competitors against Russian oil and gas exports. Duh!
What a co-incidence!
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And in the back round the SVR/ KGB has been actively throttling fracking at every turn.
The Europeans can’t seem to make the connection.
They belong to the Homer Simpson school of policy analysis.
Doh!
Ages 16 and up are eligible to vote, or so I have read on NRO.
I will stick with my call of NO winning 55-45, but I am less confident of that prediction today. However, I would be pleased to see the YES win. The hysteria level of the NO supporters in the media and the government remind me of global warming propaganda.
It makes me appreciate the wisdom of our founders in creating such a difficult amendment process. As long as people hold out hopes and dreams, one day decisions are a terrible idea.
From what I have read but not confirmed, residency and age is all that is required to vote. A Scot living outside of Scotland, even though still a citizen of Scotland cannot vote.
While an English citizen living in Scotland can vote…
The Scottish PM, the leading proponent of independence and an ardent socialist has admitted to borrowing much from the Obama 2008 campaign tactics. It’s all about “hope and change”. There is strong talk among the leadership of nationalizing Scotland’s oil fields and production facilities.
I’ll be surprised if the yes vote doesn’t pass but if not, it will certainly arise again.
IMO, independence is a formula for poverty. If the Scots vote for it however, the world will owe a debt of gratitude for the Scots having volunteered to provide a public example of societal Seppuku.
Paullie “The Beard” Krugman is against it. Best argument I know of FOR it.
The old saying “Be careful what you wish for. you might just get it.” somehow comes to mind..
Slightly OT, but why do we never hear much about the tyranny of the minority? Such as the leftists and their useful “liberal” allies in this country controlling our national agenda. As bad as tyranny of the majority is, at least it’s the majority exerting it’s will. Isn’t it worse when it’s tyranny exercised by the minority of the citizenry?
I can live with it either way. If Scotland splits, I expect it will go in the toilet and take its residents along with it, so the play will end with justice served to the deserving. And there are worse things to spend money on than rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall. OTOH, if they stay in the union not much changes and I’ve been living with the crazy old bat that is current Great Britain for a while.
While obviously there are other factors as well, I find this image to be particularly insightful, as to why the movement for Scottish independence is finding a receptive audience.
I ask again, why is the unity of a United Kingdom good for England and the money machine that is the City of London?
Why does Cameron grovel in Edinburgh and literally beg the Scots to vote No?
I felt the same way about Quebec. Also eats more than it brings to the table,plus its stupid and offensive Francophilia. The Quebecs are so stupid as to need in small script Arrete (or whatever Stop is en francais) on an octagonal red sign that boldly reads Stop. The Frogs apparently can’t remember stuff like that.
Their solution is to import foreign workers to ensure pensions are kept up
The result? A social justice and welfare paradise, naturally.
http://www.snp.org/blog/post/2014/may/what-yes-vote-means-immigration
Note the reasoning of two typical cases of the newly fired up interviewed by The Guardian…
And …
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/23/scottish-independence-vote-pits-family-members-against-one-another
Demanding the freedom to be unfree …
I’ve come to the conclusion voting is for idiots. It’s idiots voting in their betters — morons. A list may be made by list-makers as to what ails democracies but it is unnecessary. We may be harmed and damaged by much of what would be on it but we are damaged irreperably by universal suffrage – doom. Though our doom is not assured, the bubbles bubble everywhere. Already universal suffrage is seen as too restricting and the call is out for unconditional suffrage. Scotland will vote their just deserts in either case — it is the comeuppance, the nemesis, for hubris — that unrestricted voting matters.
I’m hoping for a Yes win. Witnessing the consternation of globalists, unionists, anti-nationalists, should make for compelling entertainment. Might even see Cameron and his like breakdown and sob. Cry me a river.
Spoke to my father in the UK earlier today. He says opinion seems to be on the side of let them go; it’ll be bad for them but serves them right.
To those people on this thread who say they are hoping for a yes vote, is that for the same “serves them right” reason or because you believe it’ll be good for Scotland. From my experience of Scottish politics those expecting any good outcome for the Scots from a yes vote are sadly misguided.
Neo: it is a straight 50% plus 1 vote for either side to win.
A yes vote also raises a constitutional problem with the next UK general election due by the spring of 2015 but Scottish independence slated for March 2016. Therefore the house majority might change in 3/16 when Scottish MP’s withdraw from the commons.
By the way, I don’t really care either way what the Scotch do regarding Union.
They have some legitimate grievances.
But I find it difficult to sympathize with leftist welfare statists working under the guise of nationalism, whose plan for the future is basically to refashion the nationality because it isn’t very vital in the first place.
Not that I care about the survival of the Scotch as an ethnos very much either.
I probably enjoy their colorfulness more at a distance than I would close up.
In relationship to Sharon W´s comment, I´d just like to say that there hasn´t been a “long history of conquest of that area by the Spaniards”. In fact Catalonia has been a part of Spain ever since Spain exists, as it was a part of the kingdom of Aragon before Ferdinand and Isabella got married.
The catalonian educational system is controlled by nationalist politicians who have ilegally kept children from being educated in spanish, even when it is the mother tongue of the majority of children there. And they teach a distorted History in wich, for example, the 1714 spanish civil war of sucesion becomes a secesion war of Catalonia against the rest of Spain.
Nationalism may sound romantic from afar, but it opens a huge can of worms here in Europe. Remember both world wars. And it never ends, as there will never be perfect frontiers that everyone agrees on.
It seems to me that it is quite fashionable amongst some people in USA to support self-determination for other people in other places, but the one time the union of the USA was in danger, a civil war was faught. Nevermind state sovereignity, nevermind what southern citizens had decided democratically. And now, correct me if I´m wrong, it is the law of the united states that the union is eternal and unbreakable. It would be a real courtesy if you accepted the same principle for other states in this world.
Sorry for the off-topic and for my english.
Imagine if this is a close vote and 16/17 year olds sent it over the top.
I remember how I thought and acted at that age … do any of you?
Yeah, I know I acted like a moron- no ability to think ahead further than a few minutes.
mf, please don’t take personally a simple observation (from a 1 week trip). Admittedly, I’m not any kind of expert on Barcelona or Catalonia. However, after walking through the lovely park that was created, following taking down the fort that housed 8,000 soldiers after the last “conquest” of that area, I felt a respect for a people that doesn’t give up. Funny thing is, the person who spoke most emphatically and specifically to us about Catalan nationalism was a cab driver whose parents (Spanish) moved to the area when he was 10. We ran into other people very proud of their Catalan heritage, but his was the most passionate. As for the law of the United States that union is eternal and unbreakable, that’s not what Robert E. Lee (not a slave owner, but a believer in state’s rights) believed.
In a new report from CNN, televised live today, 110% of Scots have made their decision on independence, with 58% saying “yes,” and 52% voting “no.” This picture actually made it to the air: In case you can do math better than CNN’s copy editor, that adds up to more than 100% of Scotland’s populace. And as you also probably know, 110% of an electorate cannot vote on a referendum (unless there is massive voter fraud).
Artfldgr:
Well, since non-Scots who merely reside in the country are able to vote, maybe it really is 110% of Scots 🙂 .
KLSmith at 3:30 pm,
Of course a tyranny of a minority is worse than a tyranny of the majority. The US Constitution has safeguards however to prevent both from occurring. The reason you hear so much about the tyranny of the majority is that the left (a minority) has engaged in a long train of deceitful offenses to create a duped majority, which acts as political leverage through voting to empower the left to undermine the constitution with appointments of activist leftist judges and congressional democrats, acting to subvert constitutional safeguards.
“I ask again, why is the unity of a United Kingdom good for England and the money machine that is the City of London?” Don Carlos
The short answer is the revenue from Scottish north sea oil fields and the retention of veto power in the UN security council.
LondonTrader at 4:00 pm,
I’m not hoping for a yes vote nor do I wish the Scots ill but they will certainly deserve what they get if they vote yes. Actions have consequences and votes are voluntary. Just as the American people who voted for Obama deserve what they get.
“It seems to me that it is quite fashionable amongst some people in USA to support self-determination for other people in other places, but the one time the union of the USA was in danger, a civil war was faught. Nevermind state sovereignity, nevermind what southern citizens had decided democratically. And now, correct me if I´m wrong, it is the law of the united states that the union is eternal and unbreakable. It would be a real courtesy if you accepted the same principle for other states in this world.” MF
If that were an accurate synopsis of the issues regarding the southern states seceding we might agree but since it’s not… state sovereignty does not grant the right to unilateral secession. The north voted not to break the contract between the states and the south had less votes than the north. Actually, many of us, in principle do accept the same principle as we advocate for other nations. If the populations of our red and blue states voted to separate, they would have the right to do so but as in Scotland it must be voted upon. Since no Constitutional mechanism for such a vote exists it would have to be done through the amendment process; either a constitutional convention or 3/4 of Congress and the State legislatures.
So GB, if state sovereignty does not grant the right to unilateral secession, how do the states function under a federal government that is lawless, greedy, and hell bent on squelching life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? What are we to do in such circumstances, hope to turn the situation around at the ballot box? Iowa is a purple state, I love my state, but I would pull up roots and gladly move to a collation of independent red states free of the yoke of DC.
The referendum is just part of the ever-increasing devolution of humanity. Tribalism is the way of life for most of the world, now it is spreading to the West.
If independence wins, pretty soon the highland Scots will be demanding independence from the lowland Scots, and then the eastern highland Scots will be demanding independence from the western highland Scots, and so forth and so on, until they reach the pinnacle of tribal societies:
“Me against my brother; me and my brother against my cousin; me, my brother and my cousin against the rest of our clan; our clan against the rest of our tribe; our tribe against the world.”
GB-I am not presently well-versed in this subject but years ago when I was home-schooling our children and we were reading the original documents–The Federalist Papers and Anti-Federalist Papers– as well as studying the Constitution I remember feeling that the Robert E. Lee’s of the south had more than a leg to stand on. And I was born a “northerner”.
Sharon W, sorry if I seemed angry at you.
I just wanted to say a few facts to try to fight relentless nationalist propaganda.
First, the castle you speak about was built because Catalonia sided with the house of austrians against the house of borbons in a spanish civil war of sucesion that the borbons won. It wasn´t a punishment of Spain versus Catalonia, but a punishment of a King against a people that had supported the enemy candidate to the throne of Spain. Yet, people in Catalonia have been educated in a nationalist version of History for 30 years. And, yes, people can be brainwashed.
Second, many children of inmigrants from other parts of Spain end up being nationalist in order to being accepted. They are called “charnegos” and made fun of if they don´t adapt. In school they are taught everything in catalonian, whereas spanish is just used in the class of spanish, just as a foreign language would. They are taught a distorted version of History in which Spain is a foreign invading country. People from other parts of Spain can not aply for civil servants in Catalonia unless they speak catalonian, wich in practice has closed the entrance and created a nationalist microcosmos, specially in education. Many children are shamed to have been born of “inferior” spanish parents and try to overcompensate by becoming nationalist.
All the regional tvs and newspapers depend on regional subsidies and favours to survive, and therefore adapt to what nationalist politicians want. There is a huge corruption system in wich nationalist politicians decide which business works and wich does not. Theirs is the power. If you feel so inclined you can google Jordi Pujol, who was the president of Catalonia for many years and got inmensaly rich by comisions paid ilegally to him by any business that wanted to work in Catalonia. Obviously, besides paying that comisié³n, the business had to be nationalist friendly or it would not get the administartive permisions to opérate. etc etc.
There would be much more, but I don´t want to bore you. I will just add one more thing. You said that everything is written in both languages. But the reason is that all the public services are controlled for nationalists. And the private business have to write it all in catalonian or they have to pay fines. Yes, that right. There is a part of Spain in wich if you write anything in your private business in spanish only, you are fined. Sounds totalitarian, doesn´t it? That´s catalonian nationalism in a nutshell. Obviously the aim of that law is that visitors to Catalonia get the feeling that catalonian language is just as spread and used as spanish. Sadly it works.
If you want me to I can give you links to prove everything I have said.
Regards.
MF,
That is very interesting. I was aware of the Catalonian separatist movement, but I haven’t really followed it. I generally distrust such movements because they seem to overlook the broader and long-term effects of separation.
mf, I appreciate what you have to share. The Eyewitness travel guide for Barcelona must have been written by a nationalist, because the history (complete with timeline) represents that point of view entirely. But it was refreshing to be in an area where nationalism is celebrated. Here in the states, thanks to the Gramscian march through our institutions, anti-Americanism is carrying the day. In the beginning of the movie, Braveheart (bringing us back to the subject of Scotland), the narrator states, “I shall tell you of William Wallace. Historians from England will say I am a liar, but history is written by those who have hanged heroes.”