April 25th, 2015

Man accused of rape by “mattress girl” sues Columbia University

This is good news [emphasis mine]:

Paul Nungesser, the Columbia University student accused of raping fellow student Emma Sulkowicz, is now suing the university for doing nothing to stop Sulkowicz’s harassment campaign against him, which he claims “effectively destroyed” his college experience, reputation, and future career prospects.

His lawsuit contains a wealth of new information about the contested sexual assault, including dozens of messages establishing Sulkowicz’s sexual “yearning” for Nungesser, which she sent to him both before and after the alleged incident.

I’ve written about the Sulkowicz accusations before, here, but it’s Cathy Young’s article that tells the story best. Whether Nungesser raped Sulkowisz will probably never be known, because in the end it’s a case of “he said she said,” but all the evidence I’ve seen so far argues for his innocence.

Nungesser isn’t suing Sulkowisz herself, although she not only accused him of rape but she drew a great deal of publicity to it by her dramatic publicity stunt of carrying around that mattress as an art project approved by the university for credit.

Here are Nungesser’s charges against Columbia. The document also details the course of Nungesser and Sulkowicz’s relationship, with Facebook messages and emails that back up Nungesser’s story. If true (and I assume the emails are real, since he’s ready to present his case in court), it is one of the most sobering stories I’ve ever read, and some of my reaction has nothing to do with the legal details of the case or even the rape accusations, but instead with the quality of their communications, which sound less like two intelligent Columbia students and more like a couple of mindless junior high schoolers (albeit ones who engage in some fairly edgy sexual activity).

Skimming the entirety of the document (particularly pages 7-9), I can’t escape the idea that Sulkowicz’s accusations towards Nungesser may have been sparked by hurt, pain, and anger at his getting involved with another woman and not having as much time for his friendship with Sulkowicz (they were never a couple; they had been “friends with benefits”). This would make her the proverbial woman scorned. I note also that many of her earlier communications with Nungesser, before they ever slept together, had to do with her complains about a previous boyfriend’s failure to use condoms with her and the fact that he was using them with other women.

It’s not the same as the UVA case, but there are some harmonic echoes, including the ploy of trying to get sympathy from a man in whom the woman is interested by alleging another man is sexually mistreating her in some way. But one of the strongest resemblances is the reaction of the university as well as the press. Although at UVA there was no one person falsely accused (mainly because “Jackie” had made up the main perpetrator), an entire fraternity and even the fraternity system as a whole were punished. At Columbia Nungesser was cleared, but he was damaged anyway by the art project, the resultant publicity, and the fact that the university paper revealed his real name, and that officials didn’t nothing to discourage or punish the accuser’s breach of a confidentiality agreement:

The school spent another seven months investigating and after a two-hour hearing found Nungesser “not responsible.” He would cleared of the charges even though he wasn’t allowed to introduced the Facebook messages sent after the alleged rape showing no signs of distress from Sulkowicz…

Nungesser had been abiding by the confidentiality agreement, and says in his lawsuit that Columbia University advised him to ignore the media. Nungesser says the school never took action against his accusers for breaching the confidentiality policy.

About six months after Sulkowicz’s appeal failed, Nungesser’s name was published in the school newspaper alleging he was an unpunished rapist…

Sulkowicz…began a whirlwind media tour for her art project, wherein she carried a mattress around claiming to be a rape survivor (and Nungesser being the rapist).

Her professor is included in the lawsuit because of his statements regarding the art project. In one article for the Columbia Spectator, her professor said “carrying around your university bed — which was also the site of your rape — is an amazingly significant and poignant and powerful symbol.”

Meanwhile, Columbia has allowed this bullying and harassment of Nungesser to continue.

“In complete disregard of Paul’s rights to be free of, among other things, gender-based harassment and gender based stalking, Columbia has allowed Emma to carry the mattress into each of her classes, the library, and on Columbia campus-provided transportation,” the lawsuit states.

Columbia president Lee Bollinger is included in the lawsuit for publicly supporting Sulkowicz’s harassment campaign against Nungesser.

“This is a person who is one of my students, and I care about all of my students,” Bollinger told New York Magazine. “And when one of them feels that she has been a victim of mistreatment, I am affected by that. This is all very painful.”

Of course, no such care was taken for Nungesser…

Threats to Nungesser have appeared online and on Sulkowicz’s Facebook account, including one message suggesting Nungesser commit suicide. (Sulkowicz “liked” that comment.)

After the proceedings finding Nungesser “not responsible,” the parties were bound by a confidentiality agreement, but the university not only failed to enforce it but instead supported (and allowed a professor to support) Sulkowicz’s allegations, which were made in such a way as to garner maximum public exposure (her story was covered in the media of 35 countries and her claims were treated as true). Columbia did nothing, even though its officials were made aware (see pp 14-15 here) that the accuser had breached confidentiality when speaking to a reporter. Subsequent breaches by the accusers (Sulkowicz had enlisted several friends of hers) as well as an article in the campus press that made it very clear (without actually naming him) who the supposed rapist was, were ignored by the university as well, although Nungesser still felt bound by his own confidentiality agreement.

I could go on and on and on, because it gets worse (much worse) as Sulkowicz continues her vendetta against Nungesser. You can read it all here. I can almost guarantee it will make you very, very angry, as it did me, even though I already knew most of the story.

I know full well that universities in this country have become almost totally co-opted by the left, and are not interested in protecting the rights of anyone who does not follow the accepted PC line. I also know that the accepted PC line in the case of rape is that women don’t lie and that they must be allowed to fully engage in all manner of sex both casual and un- and make whatever ex-post-facto charges against men that they wish, and for whatever reason they wish, and that anyone who questions them is evil. I just can’t accept that this line of reasoning has taken over at the institutions of higher learning in this country, even though I was aware of it as far back as twenty-five years ago when I was an older graduate student at a university and witnessed it myself.

Such a sad state of affairs we have come to. Can lawsuits like Nungesser’s even begin to reverse the powerful tide?

58 Responses to “Man accused of rape by “mattress girl” sues Columbia University”

  1. George Pal Says:

    It is already evident to all but the narrativemongers that the only rape culture that exists is young women’s rape fantasies. Cheesitz Cripes almighty, was a time they’d curl up with a bucket of ice cream and a Harlequin Romance, but not good enough. Now they have to be raped by a passing fancy or tag raped by Pi OMeGa Rho.

  2. charles Says:

    Years ago I served on a grand jury in which one of the cases was a claim of date rape by a young woman who was in a friends with benefits relationship.

    Everyone on the grand jury, and especially the woman, were angry at the prosecutor for even bringing the case before us. The woman’s story was so full of holes it looked like Swiss cheese!

    It was very clear that she thought she would be able to change the friends with benefits into something more meaningful; and when that didn’t happen she cried RAPE!

    That young man in our case was dragged through the mud and for what? So, the femnazi prosecutor could claim that she takes all claims of rape seriously?

    And despite testimony from others to counter the accuser’s claims – nothing was ever done about her lies.

    That young man in our case (and Nungesser along with the Duke Lacrosse players, and countless others) will, even though found not guilty, have those accusations trailing them for life.

    I do get it – the situation used to be against women who claimed rape and it was needed to change; but, now the pendulum has swung so far to the other extreme it has to go back towards the middle. Hopefully, lawsuits such as this will help that.

    And kudos to Nungesser for abiding by the confidentiality agreement. That may just work in his favor now.

  3. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    It’s appropriate that Nungesser is going after Columbia, its President, her Professor and other involved parties. Making these ideologues pay ‘through the nose’, not only monetarily but by being fired is the only way to stop these travesties.

    It is however a grave injustice that Sulkowicz isn’t facing prison. Consequence must be proportional to the offense and Sulkowicz has, in the most profound of ways, unequivocally damaged Nungesser’s life.

  4. parker Says:

    Yes GB, a false accusation of rape should earn the same sentence as a conviction in an actual rape case. And, when will society start shunning idiots who cry trigger warning? I am glad my grandchildren will be raised by parents who will nip this pc bs in the bud.

  5. neo-neocon Says:

    parker:

    Date rape cases like this are not amenable to criminal charges because the false accusations cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt—unless there was a tape of them having sex, complete with audio.

  6. Don Carlos Says:

    “Such a sad state of affairs we have come to. Can lawsuits like Nungesser’s even begin to reverse the powerful tide?”

    No, Neo. A tide is a cyclical thing. It ebbs and flows based on the moon. You may wish to rephrase by withdrawing “tide” but you are more correct than you know.
    The tide is pulling us all out to sea, where monsters await. One day it will spit a few miserable survivors up onto the sand. Let’s hope they build well above the high water line next time.

  7. Ymarsakar Says:

    Why would lawyers winning out by getting 70-90% of the damages, going to stop this?

    If anything, it will merely motivate both sides to get better lawyers. Lawyer up, like an arms race. But a lot of that money goes from the lawyers to the unions behind them and then to the Democrats.

  8. Banned Lizard Says:

    The names of all but a few colleges and universities these days are unfortunately associated with the most extreme anti-American unpleasantness. Conservatives who pay attention to such things might even see the majority of campus populations as enemy combatants of sorts. As such, any opportunity to defund these malignant activists is welcome.

  9. parker Says:

    If a jury determines a rape did not occur then the accuser has defamed the accused, wasted the time of the police, DA, and court (burning up taxpayer’s bucks), and is guilty of perjury. She or he deserve jail time and a fine.

  10. G6loq Says:

    As such, any opportunity to defund these malignant activists is welcome….

    Yes. And this suit is well conceived Lawfare!

  11. blert Says:

    I thought that the whole mattress gig was a parody of penance…

    of footsteps towards Calvary…

    where the mistress would end up nailed to her mattress.

    &&&&

    The Twelve Stations of the Cross are virtually certain to be a cultural infusion from pharaonic burials…

    In particular the notion that the Pharaoh would have to transit 12 different ‘gates’ or ritual procedures (rites) on the way to pharaonic heaven.

    ( Thence a straight shot to the star Polaris is strongly implicated — it to be the immovable — the firmament… )

    In a curious retread of ancient dream archetypes: the Nile was conflated with liquid flows of either genitalia by the ancients.

    The Egyptians — in particular — were steeped in phallic worship with ritualized pharaonic masterbation — every day — topped off with a cleanliness fetish to beat all. (Total body depilation is described by contemporary hieroglyphic writings.)

    Consequently, Sulkowicz was toting around every totum of suffering, god-hood, life, rebirth and sexuality.

    Paganism revisited — no matter how you split it.

    Alternately: rage based love.

  12. The original Mr. X Says:

    The Twelve Stations of the Cross are virtually certain to be a cultural infusion from pharaonic burials…

    At the risk of derailing this thread, the Stations of the Cross didn’t become a thing until after the First Crusade, over a thousand years after the last Pharaohs. There’s no way they were based off of Pharaonic burial customs.

    The Egyptians — in particular — were steeped in phallic worship with ritualized pharaonic masterbation — every day — topped off with a cleanliness fetish to beat all.

    I remember once I went round the Ashmolean in Oxford, they had a giant Ancient Egyptian statue showing a guy pleasuring himself. It was kind of weird.

  13. n.n Says:

    Men deserve equal protection and the presumption of innocence. Or is that asking too much?

    Oh, and due process before conviction, sentencing, and execution would be welcome. Too much?

  14. G6loq Says:

    Oh, and due process before conviction, sentencing, and execution would be welcome. Too much?

    …In addition to women’s superiority in judgment, their trustworthiness, reliability, fairness, working and playing well with others, relative freedom from distracting sexual impulses, and lower levels of prejudice, bigotry, and violence, they live longer, have lower mortality at all ages, are more resistant to most categories of disease, and are much less likely to suffer brain disorders that lead to disruptive and even destructive behavior. And, of course, they can produce new life from their own bodies, to which men add only the tiniest biological contribution — and one that soon could be done without. . . . To call being male a syndrome is not an arbitrary judgment….
    Hey hey, ho ho, males must go!
    By a Melvin Konner whose Jewish self-hatred knows no bounds ….

  15. G6loq Says:

    Discuss Safe Spaces and Anti’s on College Campuses

    ISIS looming …

  16. Daniel in Brookline Says:

    What parker said.

    Get rid of the college tribunals, as Glenn Reynolds has repeatedly said, and treat campus rape as a crime. If you want it taken seriously, report it to the police; if you choose not to go to the police, but hound the person in social media etc., then you are engaging in sexual harassment, and colleges can (and should) treat it as such.

    I suspect that having to go to the police, and to a jury trial, will get rid of nearly all of the false accusations. What few remain, as parker said above, can then be treated as cases of perjury.

    All that would then remain is to make sure that the police take rape accusations seriously. But they’ve been required to do so for quite some time now. I think the burden of proof is on the colleges to demonstrate that they produce more just outcomes than our justice system… because so far they’re doing a lousy job.

  17. Molly NH Says:

    @g6loq, men are better dancers than women

  18. Matt_SE Says:

    All of the pernicious aspects of universities were there, but were restrained by the decency of society. That decency is gone now.
    There’s no way to fix this system. It must be destroyed.
    My preferred method is to somehow overturn Griggs v. Duke Power.
    IMO, it was the Supreme Court that put all of this in motion…or at least contributed mightily.

  19. Steve Says:

    I remember years ago talking with a feminist about the Salem witch trials. I think these trials were relevant to her because she thought they fit the ‘women are victims’ narrative (ie, Christian white males were responsible for this travesty). However she failed to recognize the significance of the fact that the false accusers were all female. To my mind this tells me that being a victim satisfies a psychological need of many women. Just now I read that Lena Dunham gave a speech at Variety’s Power of women event revealing the ‘harrowing details of her rape.’ Unbelievable. How to respond to this sort of pathology? I think she should be thrown in jail.

  20. neo-neocon Says:

    parker:

    You write, “If a jury determines a rape did not occur then the accuser has defamed the accused, wasted the time of the police, DA, and court (burning up taxpayer’s bucks), and is guilty of perjury. She or he deserve jail time and a fine.”

    Juries don’t “determine a rape did not occur.” Juries find a person guilty or not guilty of a rape. “Not guilty” doesn’t mean the same as “innocent,” nor does it mean a rape did not occur (although of course, sometimes a rape has not occurred).

    Nor is it the case that if a jury finds for the defendant, that means the accuser has committed perjury. For example, the accuser might honestly believe or perceive that the defendant raped her. Or the accuser might be telling the truth, but there is not enough evidence to convict the defendant.

    The usual redress is a civil suit, and they are very rare because it’s difficult to prove. Awards tend to be limited to clear-cut cases such as when the accuser is recorded admitting on tape that she lied.

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  22. G6loq Says:

    Kevin is on the job!

    Keep on scrolling down past his piece, it is one after another….

    Note: that Kirsten Gillibrand creature seems to be skating free in that debacle …
    Tar, feathers, rail …..

  23. physicsguy Says:

    Daniel in Brookline: “Get rid of the college tribunals, as Glenn Reynolds has repeatedly said, and treat campus rape as a crime.”

    We are dealing with this on my campus. What has happened is that the DoE issued a “Dear Colleagues” letter (go to thefire.org for background) about 2 years ago which scared the piss out of college administrators. The letter expanded the view of how Title IX is used to now include campus rape cases. The reason the tribunals were set up is that the DoE threatened to come after colleges that did not set up these kangaroo courts.

    Rape is a crime and must be handled by the police and the judicial system. The DoE is actively trying to subvert the system via the colleges. BHO strikes again.

  24. MikeII Says:

    “Such a sad state of affairs we have come to. Can lawsuits like Nungesser’s even begin to reverse the powerful tide?”

    While I agree with the case and hope that he gets a nice payday, I think his efforts are similar to “pe*ing in the wind” If the jury is made up of academics, he will get nothing. And whatever he gets, will be paid out of the general funds of the college. So the taxpayers will pay it.
    The academics will continue to be insular in their approach to life and hold their unrealistic views. That is the one difference between the “1800 utopia community” you wrote about today and the university environment. When reality punched a hole in their community view of things, they had to adapt and move on. With the university, until you get rid of tenure and have the professors teach more than 1 or 2 classes a year, nothing will change.
    That doesn’t mean one shouldn’t keep trying as best one can. It only means that until the whole of the system is held to a higher standard nothing will change. 🙁

  25. physicsguy Says:

    “With the university, until you get rid of tenure and have the professors teach more than 1 or 2 classes a year, nothing will change.”

    Well…maybe not. the ONLY reason I still have a job is because of tenure. I’ve had two college president express in no uncertain terms they would like to get rid of me due to my conservative views. I’m only protected because of tenure. Tenure was set up for precisely that reason: so faculty could express unpopular views and not be retaliated against. Look up the recent court victory of Mike Adams vs UNCW. Another case where a conservative was attacked and only remains due to tenure.

    Tenure and teaching loads have nothing to do with the political indoctrination in higher ed.

  26. Molly NH Says:

    Yikes ! Physicsguy do you get anonymous threats in your mailbox ???
    Keep fighting the *good fight* some of those students are being reached & eventually will put 2 & 2 together,
    after all we are still pre common core !

  27. Elliott Says:

    Read about her parents. Google for their names, professions, and NYT articles from years and years ago. And the open letter to university. LOL.

  28. Eric Says:

    Neo: “Can lawsuits like Nungesser’s even begin to reverse the powerful tide?”

    It’s a step in the right direction, but it can’t “reverse the powerful tide” by itself.

    The tide is activist. The tide can only be reversed with activism. Norm/stigma is an activist function.

  29. Eric Says:

    FYI: http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/list-of-lawsuits-against-colleges-and-universities-alleging-due-process-violations-in-adjudicating-sexual-assault/

  30. Lizzy Says:

    I’m so glad Nungesser is fighting back against the school and sponsoring art professor since the whole situation/mattress stunt is so out of bounds of what rational adult behavior should be. I may save a copy of the lawsuit to show my son before he goes off to college to demonstrate what to avoid.

    However, reading the communication from Sulkowitz it all seemed so pathetic and sad*. The sexual revolution and modern feminism have really messed up a lot of young women; weaponized them against men. Being “sex-positive.” sleeping with your main partner(?) John Doe AND all of his friends (including Nungesser) was clearly not empowering at all. Instead, she felt sexually used (and likely emotionally unfulfilled), needing to blame someone else. The added bonus was that she got to be the victim – the highest moral authority on the Left – garnering her fame and an invitation to the SOTU. In this way she was very similar to UVA’s “Jackie.”This kind of crazy is what feminism and the Left have wrought.

    *Regardless of Sulkowitz’s potential mental instability, she needs to be held accountable for destroying another person’s life. For example, posters on Jezebel continue to refer to him as a “serial-rapist” even after the details came out yesterday.

  31. Liberty Wolf Says:

    I find it particularly chilling that the university has an “office of gender-based misconduct” that feels Orwellian. I haven’t yet read the entire legal document but I get the picture and it is a scary one! So sad for that poor kid, the young man – who was caught up in this. I am shocked that a kiss supposedly that was not wanted is considered grounds for a complaint to this office? That was the girl put up by Emma to make a complaint about that. Unbelievable. Didn’t these sorts of minor misunderstandings like a kiss someone was unsure of wanting, didn’t they used to just get worked out privately? It happens, particularly in college! I was also taken aback at Emma’s feeling like she should make a complaint about the boys at the party where she was having sex with several but drunk and puking. It sounds consensual though I guess now this is not necessarily considered so… but she was upset about the STD and wanted someone to blame it on and was considering one of the boys there… it felt very manipulative.

    This woman most likely has real problems or is very immature, but it is the university’s fault for allowing this to happen as it did. I agree the whole thing is horrifying.

    I agree they sound like jr. high students and not Ivy League students…

    I hope he wins!

  32. Liberty Wolf Says:

    And, yes, as someone here already stated the Department of Education (and I thought the DoJ?) are keeping tabs on this sort of thing and making universities into Kangeroo courts instead of having rapes and other sexual assaults handled by the police. I know activists, feminists, who claim that female students are too scared of the police or that the courts make it too hard to prove rape so they must then go to the university. This attitude is also aligned with the general anti-police attitude on the left. It is really chilling.

  33. Eric Says:

    Liberty Wolf: “I agree they sound like jr. high students and not Ivy League students.”

    It struck me as a generational patois particular to texting. I’m sure when they’re ‘on stage’ academically or (pre-)professionally, they appear every bit the polished sophisticated Ivy Leaguer.

    At the same time, their raw communication was an anthropological window on the almost-innocent ‘junior high’ character of their social behavior combined with the jaded promiscuous character of their sexual behavior at ages 18, 19.

    Put together with Nungesser’s impressive resumé accomplishments at a young age, it’s a revealing picture of the mix of performance, social, and sexual mores for the ‘cream’ of the rising generation. I’m not sure what to make of it.

    LW: “I know activists, feminists, who claim that female students are too scared of the police or that the courts make it too hard to prove rape so they must then go to the university.”

    It’s more than an alternative to the standing justice system. They’ve constructed an alternative jurisprudence on campus, based on their own quasi-religious law, that fundamentally deviates from what have been normal American principles of fairness and justice.

    It’s a reification.

  34. Eric Says:

    Add to the Left activist reification of an alternative jurisprudence on campus:

    What starts on campus spreads throughout society. Universities are what they are, founts, vectors, and incubators, plus with the decline of religious institutions, they’ve also become dominant cultural nodes like the modern-day Church.

    It behooves to counter and reverse the trend on campus today because tomorrow Left activists will spread the trend into society from the University.

  35. Artfldgr Says:

    Not our problem, they wouldnt listen to older white males, and women who are not women by virtue, and virtue of not being feminist warriors.

    so, its not any of our issues..

    and if you think this is good, wait till you find out what happens next… whatever it is, it wont be good, it wont give him parity, and it will show how the patriarchy is in control… (ie. if they lose, the patriarchy is in control, if they win, the patriarchy is in control, and they had a minor victory)

    nothig you can do about it…
    just sit back and watch the show…

    the politicans and the courts will not let matress girl get punished… because to punish a woman in the wrong is to prevent others who are not in the wrong from coming forwards… so you cant punish them…

    can you?

  36. Anna Says:

    Eric:

    I was taken aback by those texts, and I am only a few years older than them. I will not pretend that my “textspeak” resembles my university papers, or even my posts here, but there is a difference between using abbreviations while getting a bit silly with friends and writing texts the *content* of which is so sadly crass.

    On a different topic, I also agree with Lizzy – raising an entire generation of young women to believe that they are as psychologically equipped to deal with uncommitted sex as are their male counterparts was a bad idea. Very many young women have underestimated to what extent their sexuality was interlocked with their emotions – and how overwhelming those emotions can be. Nobody prepared them for that nor told them that the sexual education of their generation tacitly assumed a certain mental constitution that few women will ever have.

    Also, raising young people of both sexes to believe that plain consent was a be-all and end-all of all sexual *morality* was an extremely bad idea. An action is not necessarily *morally* acceptable if all parties agree to it and it is legal. This does NOT mean that anyone should go nearly through what Nungesser went through if he only ever engaged in consensual and legal activities, but a moral young man would not have taken part in the hook-up culture to begin with. This is also something to keep in mind: he is a victim of a defamatory stunt, legitimately seeking redress for that, but he is ALSO a despicable libertine, of that sort of people which has always been tacitly excluded from polite society, but which has apprently greatly multiplied over the last generation, causing tremendous damage to each other. They are a sort of people to be warned AGAINST, EVEN WHEN they fall prey to each other’s schemes, defamatory stunts and pseudo-legal processes.

    On a separate note, I read somewhere that Sulkowicz claims that she did go to the police, that the messages they exchanged feature omissions and that there is some sort of a document around with her comments on the messages, but I was unable to find it.

    And I am still appalled that she was not laughed out of the cabinet with such an “art” project; I do not know much about Columbia’s program or criteria for senior projects, but I found it ridiculous. I find the whole concept of “endurance art” extremely problematic to begin with, though, but I will spare you that rant.

  37. Artfldgr Says:

    Neo Says: but instead with the quality of their communications, which sound less like two intelligent Columbia students and more like a couple of mindless junior high schoolers

    yeah… but who did that to them? the men who were pushed out and now marginalized in society so much someone can accuse them of rape and get class credit for it with a mattress on her back? or the women who are fomenting such a society and have ot do this to their own kids, others kids, and for what reason?

    that they have no sympathy for others lives, no respect for others beings, and are willing to destroy all of society and exterminate their own to win what? everything they want is contradictory and so is left up to their masters to do. meanwhile, they do things babylonian whores would charge extra for, and do it for free on the outside chance that the man will like them, and then cry rape when he goes with them, and does not realize the strings they attached.

    its not our problem guys…

    basically she is trying to get what her grandmother had that she spends her life energies trying to destroy while seeking it.

    thats mental.
    you cant help mental
    and womens mental is normal
    so you cant do a thing

    its a waste of time discussing it as the people talking are old, used up, many patriarchal evel white males, and it wont amount to anything other than we donated a bit of our lives to the big nothign.

    MEANWHILE..
    if the guy did not try to be with a crazy westernized woman whose crazyness is affirmed by the system, he would not be in trouble.

    ie. my case that being with a western woman is way too dangerous for the rewards.

    she is empowered to be a moonbat fruitcake sociopathic narcisistic wacko of the 10th order.

    get your johnson near that and you deserve everything that comes after, cause she certainly is not going to be responsible for anything… she has 23+ forms of birth control, he has two, and its his fault… she has a kid, he has to pay… she can give it to strangers before he gets it… and she can take his future earnings too… and what was that for?

    he is rare… as he was trying to be a reasonable person, a good guy, a friend, etc.

    cant be that with modern women
    and those you can, are hiddin inside the barrel of roten apples and may change at any moment if the rewards present themselves.

    STAY AWAY FROM MODERN WESTERN LIBERAL WOMEN

    and you will have a decent life. you can out earn the woman, as your a male, but you dont need it… you can live on a lot less and dont have to work yourself into the grave trying to succeed in a society that will prevent you for trying… why bother to have kids with such a person as your odds are worse than having your transmissio serviced, but a lifetime of payments!!!

    heck… you may find yourself in jail or prison given the laws on altercations, and yelling… and you may find yourself there given impugned salary for support.. debtors prisons are back

    and all that so you can be hated by the kids you have no access to? thats if you have kids… if not, all so you can financially support someone who wont marry again to insure that her and her lovedf one can have the extra money you provide?

    if he followed the MGTOW advice, he would not have his name dragged around…. would he?

    in fact… if you read neo, you will find that he didnt do anything wrong EXCEPT BE WITH A MODERN LIBERAL WESTERN FEMINIST WOMAN

    think of that!!! you can do everythig right, be a good friend, a freind with benefits, do what you think she says, provide, work hard… and she will sacrifice your arse on the altar in a seconds beat!!!!

    Florence Nightingale: “Women Have No Sympathy”

    This does not apply to the characters, but your conclusions, e.g. you say “women are more sympathetic than men”.
    Now if I were to write a book out of my experience, I should begin Women have no sympathy. Yours is the tradition. Mine is the conviction of experience.
    [edited for length by n-n]

  38. Artfldgr Says:

    charles Says:
    April 25th, 2015 at 3:51 pm

    Years ago I served on a grand jury in which one of the cases was a claim of date rape by a young woman who was in a friends with benefits relationship.

    sorry you went through that.

    but for me, my career was completely destroyed by a woman that faked her own murder as a means to custory, lots of support, etc.

    the police destroyed my life to find the murderer and prove it, then she walked in…

    no restitution… no recompense for that.. .no one prosecuted for fixing the lie detector test, police false testmoney, destroying my job, destroying my health to force confession, and on and on.

    so now i wait to die
    though i am one of the early founders of MGTOW
    which now people talk about

    anyone want to shoot me to get it over with?
    as life is a bore, there is no hope for a future
    and i cant get any help, as i am an evil white guy responsible for all the ills of the past, even if my family was not here.

  39. Artfldgr Says:

    Due process denied: Judge dismisses lawsuit from Columbia student accused of sexual assault

    A New York judge has dismissed a lawsuit from a former Columbia University student alleging he was discriminated against on the basis of gender in a campus hearing that found him guilty of sexual assault.

    John’s ordeal began in May 2013, while he was studying for a final in a dorm lounge. He was alone in the lounge for several hours before his accuser, referred to only as Jane Doe, exited the elevator to talk to two friends. When those friends left, according to John’s lawsuit, Jane entered the lounge and sat next to John. John had been present around Jane while she was drinking a various times previously, and alleged in his lawsuit that she did not appear to be under the influence that night.

    After talking for some time, John says he asked Jane to take a walk to get some fresh air. The two walked about 14 blocks before turning around. John says at some point the topic of “hooking up” came up and the two began to flirt. John alleges that Jane suggested they go to her suite bathroom since they both had roommates. She even, John says, left the bathroom briefly to obtain a condom.

    Nearly five months later, Jane would accuse John of sexual assault.

    John says that from the beginning, the case was bungled. He alleges that his access to residence halls was immediately restricted but that he could access the on-campus Counseling & Psychological Services. John said that he twice tried to make an appointment to meet with a psychologist, and twice had his appointment cancelled on him.

    John was able to make an appointment with a doctor at the Columbia Center for Psychological Counseling, who noted that John “presented with near suicidal thoughts due, in part, to the stress he was undergoing as a result of the aftermath of Jane Doe’s false accusations of sexual misconduct,” according to the lawsuit.

    The Title IX investigator on the case, according to John, seemed to speak to him as if she were trying to get a confession rather than investigate an accusation. He also said she “inaccurately and inadequately” recorded John’s side of the story. John’s attempts to reconcile the misinformation failed.

    Even though retaliation was prohibited, John says several of Jane’s friends “harassed and assaulted” him on campus, telling people on the street that he was a “rapist.” No action was taken against them or Jane.

    And despite a lack of any evidence beyond Jane’s accusation (she never sought medical attention or a rape kit), John was found responsible and suspended for one year. His lawsuit alleges that even Jane tried to appeal his sentence, thinking that his punishment was too harsh.

    John filed a lawsuit against Columbia alleging discrimination in May 2014.

    and as i said.. stay away from them..
    find other people to bother with
    the feminists will be happy you did
    and you might have a chance at a minimally decent life

    Judge Jesse Furman argued in his dismissal that John failed to prove that he was discriminated against because he was a man. Furman made no attempt to re-adjudicate John’s case or whether colleges and universities should even be handling criminal matters like sexual assault. Instead, Furman focused solely on whether John was discriminated against because he was a man, and ignored other claims in the lawsuit.

    Furman concluded that despite the Title IX investigator’s role as a campus administrator tasked with prosecuting sexual assault and her background at a women’s resource center, combined with her “discretion” to ignore John’s side of the story, John didn’t provide evidence of gender discrimination.

    oh well..
    there is never any evidence of such
    because that would be admitting to whats going on
    and you cant admit to whats going on, so there is no evidence.

    ergo… the mens strike, the marraige strike, MGTOW, marrying foreigners, and just not dating western women

    There is a 1.1 below replacement birth rate for them… they is going the way of the shakers!!!

  40. Artfldgr Says:

    Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress_Performance_%28Carry_That_Weight%29

    its unlikely that he will ever have a decent life
    all it will take is a search for his name and what will happen to him will be whether he gets a resoned person of conviction (in management? no way), or a feminist (who will believe the worst of him regardless), etc

    wiki will make sure that forever, that will be his reputation

    now… was it worth the evening in bed with a normalized westernized lunatic that the state favors?

  41. Artfldgr Says:

    oh.. and regardless of the lawsuit, anyone who may want to hire him will notice that once one feminist Jaccuse, they all do

    In total, three complaints have been alleged against Nungesser and later dropped: Sulkowicz accused Nungesser of rape; a second woman accused him of emotional abuse and nonconsensual sex during a months-long relationship, and a third student accused Nungesser of non-consensually kissing her and touching her at a party

    The third and final complaint in question was initially decided against him, with an assigned punishment of disciplinary probation, but Nungesser successfully appealed, citing procedural errors and problems with the admission of hearsay. Nungesser further appealed that his accuser had failed to demonstrate guilt by a “preponderance of the evidence” as required in campus hearings. When the case was heard again, the accuser decided to withdraw from the process entirely, citing a new job and difficulty taking time off work to attend the university hearings as her reason for withdrawing

    and so, he is guilty in the court of women at work who are bosses… wont get hired… will he [maybe bill cosby might hire him?]

    Nungesser’s second accuser’s investigation was discontinued after the complaining student said she was “exhausted by the barrage of questions” and stopped responding to emails from the University’s Title IX coordinator for sexual assault investigations.

    Sulkowicz’s complaint was dismissed for lack of evidence, and her request for an appeal was denied. In each of these three cases, Nungesser was officially found “not responsible.”

    Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.
    Catherine Comins, assistant dean of student life at Vassar

    the feminists are trying to rewrite the history of their own quotes now… i guess too many people looked them up and learned what they are like and now they are writing articles to remove their responsibility for their own words…

    with women, its always someone elses fault…
    isnt it?

  42. Artfldgr Says:

    take some time to read the voluminous stuff that is not sanctioned by the state, not in feminist rags, and so on

    while i dont agree with the history, or many comments, take it that they are venting a common thing that no one listens to either. in fact, i will guess that this thread is over, and we will move on… till neo puts it up again when he loses his case

    American Woman, Stay Away from Me
    http://mattforney.com/american-woman-stay-away/

    Western Women Suck
    http://www.westernwomensuck.com/category/what-women-to-avoid/

    Avoid American Women At All Cost
    http://unotgonnalikethis.blogspot.com/2007/11/avoid-american-women-at-all-cost.html

    [if he only followed he above rules, he would have a future!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

    Stay Away From Me American Woman
    http://www.returnofkings.com/30601/stay-away-from-me-american-woman

    American Women and Marriage: a Sacred Vow (Why I Will NEVER Marry an American Woman)
    http://www.the-niceguy.com/articles/MarryAmerican.html
    Think about it: there is a more than two in five chance that an American woman is incapable of mustering the love and commitment needed to make a marriage work! The numbers show they make lousy wives and they don’t even think their marriage vows mean very much. Why marry one? Honestly now- why the flaming hell should you even consider marrying one?! Would you ever stick your hand in a garbage disposal if there’s a more than two-in-five chance that someone will suddenly hit the ‘on’ switch?? It’s putting your face in the fire! It’s asking for trouble, plain and simple. Marrying an American chick is probably one of the worst things you could ever do with your life. Just do a simple cost/benefit analysis; that’s what the numbers show!

    thousands and thousands of articles, commentary, blogs, etc.. .

    but dont worry.. american women are not listening… they deny that any of those men have a valid comment (though i will agree a lot could use a dose of thoght and compose better, and not go to the extreme)

    is it anywonder that their birth rate is so low they are going the way of the shakers (and taking the jewish population with them)?

    from more than one post:
    Do not have sex with an American Woman or Western Woman.
    (Because she can always change her mind later and have you charged with rape.)

    want to hear funny things?
    then go to youtube and listen to women tell you why the men are not there, not getting married, dont want to date, etc…

    How My Life Regained Harmony After I Stopped Dating American Women [PUA]
    http://mavericktraveler.com/how-my-life-regained-harmony-after-i-stopped-dating-american-women/

    WOMEN STILL WANT MARRIAGE – MEN, NOT SO MUCH!
    http://angrywhitedude.com/2012/11/women-still-want-marriage-men-not-so-much/

    Male Bashing Commercials
    http://angrywhitedude.com/category/all-things-libtarded/male-bashing-commercials/

    15 Things I’ve Noticed About American Women
    http://blog.happierabroad.com/2014/01/things-ive-noticed-about-american-women.html

    [omitted he paragraphs in between the points]

    1. The typical American woman is fat.
    2. American women have very bad attitudes.
    3. American women have the worst fashion sense in the world.
    4. Their extreme arrogance.
    5. Their selfishness.
    6. American women are generally immature.
    7. American women usually make terrible bosses and co-workers.
    8. Materialism and superficiality define the American woman.
    9. American women can’t cook.
    10. The typical American woman is tattooed.
    11. Their hatred for men.
    12. American women are the most irrational beings on Earth.
    13. American women do not possess much mental prowess.
    14. Their infatuation with bad boys.
    15. American women are in a state of denial.

    of course no man can have any valid points, which is why in the womens magazines it takes a woman to tell you what men are thinking!!!

    heck… they dont even think anything is wrong until their own sons suffer…then they are too dense to realize its what they support, foment, and join in on.

    what does every successful single mother of boys show their sons? that they have no place in the family and are not needed

    what does every unsuccessful single mother of boys show their sons? that they are stupid enough to toss away a decent man and harm their own children, which kind ofmakes them, bad choices of mates.

  43. neo-neocon Says:

    Eric and Liberty Wolf:

    In other words, because the standards of proof laboriously developed over the centuries in the legal system of the West in order to attempt to encourage the best possible balance of both human liberty and justice, and to avoid the conviction of innocent people, don’t function to the satisfaction of those out for a witch hunt, it is necessary to resort to the kangaroo court system of the university.

    Distressing that it has come to this, and that so few people (in a university, at that!) understand or even care what due process is about and what it is trying to protect them from, if it happens to frustrate their political and personal agendas.

  44. G6loq Says:

    … Distressing that it has come to this, and that so few people (in a university, at that!) understand or even care what due process is about and what it is trying to protect them from, if it happens to frustrate their political and personal agendas…

    The question then is: what in the environment causes such petulant oikophobia?

    There will be a divorce.

  45. G6loq Says:

    I agree with Artfld piece above.

    Something no good in the water. Strange shrillness.
    I’m fine. The young men in my close family are not and are conscious of it. Three of them should be married by now…

    Bio-sociological reality is, if the thin crust of civilization crumbles, only in the harems will there be safety. Think WWII end game … Womyn were passed around ….

  46. Anna Says:

    You know, Art, on a cold intellectual level, I find it interesting how capable you are of adopting, by inversion, the VERY SAME LOGIC for which the radical feminists are so notorious. Your vision is angled to present MEN as the structural victims of the heartless, emotionally crippled creatures that are WOMEN, the eternal culprits who even when apparently “good” are always to be suspected of their motives. Radical feminism rewritten with parties reversed to appeal to the MALE ego. No less oversimplifying of the social dynamics in which both men and women are actors, and no less problematic as a self-congratulatory worldview from which to revel in one’s preferred form of victimhood.

    I get that you apparently had extreme life experiences which have led your worldview to develop in that direction, but as an abstract consideration taking just your words at a face value, I see no essential difference between what you have repeatedly argued and the “feminists” you denounce. You really are two sides of the same coin, and the coin is a Trojan horse intended to replace the healthy complementary relationship between the sexes with this bickering and recriminations. Recriminations that, ironically, seem to be MUCH more a male game these days, just look at the disparity in the quantity and in the intensity of the internet venom directed towards women vs. towards men. And you said WOMEN were self-absorbed, self-pitying, framing all of their issues as men’s fault? Judging by the internet, men have not only caught up (presuming there WAS some sort of catching up to do), but outright surpassed them.

  47. Anna Says:

    (I hope this did not come across as tactlessly personal – I apologize if so, in which case Neo could rightly remove it; I only intended to comment what I see as the underlying logic of Art’s posts, I hope I have not crossed the line.)

  48. neo-neocon Says:

    Anna:

    No, you did not cross any line. Your posts are always respectful and thoughtful.

  49. G6loq Says:

    Anna
    Yes to all your points. That’s how it should be.
    As it is, the Feminists and Gay shrills have taken over the air waves …It has effects at large.

    I spent the 1990’s in England and in continental Europe. The difference there, and then, was visible.
    Complementarity was a given, was expected. Comparatively there was pleasant camaraderie.
    The mattress gig would probably have been shouted down… Conjuncture has changed over there and not for the better I heard.

    As it is here, a men can’t recriminate, there is no point.
    So goodbye! They come in, I, we, quietly disappear. Pop out again when the cackling subsides.

    Lucky for me my mate is smart and has good situational awareness.

    It is a phenomenon. Dr. Helen is on the job.

  50. G6loq Says:

    You are going to hell.

  51. Eric Says:

    Neo:

    Prezbo is a lawyer. I’m sure he understands due process. And this may be part of his understanding: government is obligated to due process, but what is the extent of obligation to due process for a private institution like Columbia University in internal procedures besides legal measures like Title IX?

    The Nungesser complaint points out that CU rewrote its adjudication policy on the fly in response to activists.

    There’s the traditional principle of due process that was the default starting point, but principle and obligation are not the same thing, and the principle is outgunned when the interloping competing principle is armed with more practical weight on the decision-making scale (activists, ‘Dear Colleague’ letter, etc).

  52. Eric Says:

    Anna: “but he is ALSO a despicable libertine”

    There is a whiff of the young-adult characters from Cruel Intentions. (Saw the 1999 movie, haven’t read the book it’s based on.)

  53. Steve Says:

    You know, Anna, when you say ‘…he is a victim of a defamatory stunt…, but he is ALSO a despicable libertine,….’ The word ‘but’ negates everything that comes before it. They were both despicable libertines, to use your phrasing. It just so happens that she was ALSO defamatory. That is the difference here.

  54. Anna Says:

    Steve:

    We agree about that. I did not intend the “but” to negate the fact that, legally, on this specific account, he is the wronged party, but rather to introduce a thought on a wider (moral) problem with the hook-up culture they both apparently belonged to.

  55. Eric Says:

    Artfldgr,

    This counter-feminist female blogger talks about MGTOW in the same sort of MGTOW/feminist comparison raised by Anna, but with a different take.

    http://judgybitch.com/2015/04/24/spinster-how-feminists-celebrate-being-a-selfish-witch/

  56. Anna Says:

    Eric:

    But she is comparing apples to oranges. Her examples are not *analogous* to one another, and this new “anti-feminist craze” is all too ready to close its eyes to the fact that there IS an *analogous* male version of selfishness and engaging in relationships only from a POV of a calculated personal gain, and a male version of “identity” victimhood. There is a version of male culture largely *analogous* to what they call feminism, and she ignores that to compare something else to a choice of spinsterhood out of selfishness. That is dishonest.

    That there are many legal aspects of marriage/divorce that should be revised is clear to everyone. For example, joint custody could be a default position where both parents are equally willing and equally suite to care for children; alimony could be limited to cases where a partner did not work specifically in order to attend to family full time and then further limited in time; covenant marriage (the de facto “no-fault marriage”) could be proposed as an option in ALL states, thereby offering two distinct marital contracts to choose from etc.

    The solution to the social crisis apparently rampant in some circles cannot possibly be encouraging nihilism, either male-flavored or female-flavored, and all the behaviors associated with it (from early and precarious sexual bonding to various arrangements of concubinage rather than proper marriage).

    Also, I would really be interested in divorce statistics regarding specifically marriages that have most of the following characteristics: never-fornicated, first-marriage, not-previously-cohabitating, sacramentally-valid, pornography-free, addiction-free, no-libertine-past, married-young (in their 20s), intact-family-background (of both spouses). It is not a single factor that is a guarantee of anything, but many of these factors combined give the couple a completely different starting point. Likewise, it is not a single factor that ruins anything, there is usually a constellation of factors that gives the couple a bad start.

    I do not “read” what is apparently going on as a cautionary tale against MARRIAGE, but against the factors which are highly associated with corrupting the PEOPLE, and thus the institution.

  57. Eric Says:

    Anna,

    Briffault’s Law seems to be an implicit premise of her post.

    You and Janet Bloomfield (judgybitch) could (should) have an interesting discussion on the topic.

  58. Anna Says:

    Honestly, Eric, she appears quite disagreeable. 🙁

    After your link I browsed her website a bit and I even made an honest attempt to watch one of her Youtube videos, but she expresses herself in such a vulgar fashion (even when she does not resort to imprecations, which she frequently does) and with such an aggressive note to it that I could barely appreciate the content. Also, much of what I skimmed seemed fairly simplistic, uninteresting and/or referring to what are apparently protagonists in the “feminist” vs. “anti-feminist” internet wars, which I normally do not follow.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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