Jenner and Penner
Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner refers to his/her state as “the new normal,” but transgenderism is actually quite unusual in the statistical sense, and it’s a poorly understood phenomenon as well. Some people think transgendered people are mentally disturbed, and some think they are just people trapped in the wrong body who need a body correction. But either way, it’s a phenomenon that’s neither average nor unremarkable.
I’ve written before about my view on the phenomenon of transgendered people, but I’ll recap here:
You know, I’ve got nothing against transgendered people. Based on the fairly extensive research I’ve read, both pro and con, I think the evidence indicates that transgenderism is a real issue that causes real suffering for a relatively small percentage of the population, and that for many of those it is probably something they were born with, perhaps having to do with hormonal glitches affecting fetal brain development in utero.
But I don’t think that’s always the case. I don’t think transgendered people represent a unitary phenomenon at all. Some seem to make an excellent adjustment, with or without surgery, but some are acting out rather serious problems, and the problems are hardly limited to gender dysphoria. But what percentage of the whole each group represents I don’t know; I don’t think experts know, either.
Sexual reassignment surgery is a big, big step, one that Jenner hasn’t taken yet and one that many transgendered people never take—some because of lack of money, but some because they don’t want it.
A number of people writing about Jenner have brought up the story of Mike Penner. Not only did Penner’s last name rhyme with Jenner’s, but there were certain other parallels: a life in sports (although Penner was a sports writer for the LA Times rather than a star athlete), a marriage that ended in divorce, a great deal of publicity, and even a Vanity Fair photo shoot as part of the process of coming out. But Penner’s tale, although happy at the beginning of his coming-out, went sour pretty quickly, and he ended up changing his mind about sex assignment surgery and ultimately going into a deep depression and committing suicide.
Note that I use the pronoun “he” for Penner. That’s because, some time after deciding against the surgery, he also stopped taking female hormones and asked friends to call him “Mike” again.
Penner’s end was tragic but I’m not sure how much it tells as about any other transgendered people but him, although it is certainly a warning that some transgendered people may have very serious problems that are not being properly addressed, and that all is not necessarily sweetness and light once they achieve what they believe to be their dream. One of the many catalysts for Penner’s suicide was apparently the loss of his wife, whom he had somehow believed would consent to remain in a relationship with him, and about whom a friend heard him say with deep regret, “I had the perfect life with Lisa, and I threw it all away.”
One thing that seems undeniable is that transgendered people are at very high risk for suicide attempts and for completed suicides, and this appears to be true whether they have sexual assignment surgery or not:
A whopping 41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly nine times the national average, according to a sweeping survey released three years ago…
Nearly two-thirds of respondents who were the victims of domestic violence at the hands of a family member had attempted suicide, the study also showed. Suicide attempts were less common among transgender and gender-nonconforming people who said their family ties had remained strong after they came out…
Being “out” as transgender was also tied to steeper risk, the study showed: People who tell everyone that they are transgender or gender-nonconforming, or who said that other people could always or usually tell that they were transgender, were more likely to have attempted suicide.
The study didn’t say whether these rates decreased after sex-reassignment surgery. That’s because such statistics are hard to come by. But they are not necessarily encouraging:
[A] review warns that the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants. For example, in a five-year study of 727 post-operative transsexuals published last year, 495 people dropped out for unknown reasons. Dr Hyde said the high drop out rate could reflect high levels of dissatisfaction or even suicide among post-operative transsexuals. He called for the causes of their deaths to be tracked to provide more evidence.
Dr Hyde said: “The bottom line is that although it’s clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly.”…
Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.
It is a sobering development in the transgender world, too, that Johns Hopkins—the hospital that pioneered sex reassignment surgery in the US—has ceased doing the surgery because doctors there found the results to be unrewarding on average:
We at Johns Hopkins University””which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into “sex-reassignment surgery”””launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as “satisfied” by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a “satisfied” but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.
It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study””up to 30 years””followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population.
The question, however, is whether it rose about the comparable transgender population that didn’t have surgery.
I do know that some transgendered people are extremely happy with their surgery and remain so. The problem is that medical science can’t seem to differentiate all that well, ahead of time, between those whom the surgery helps, those it does not, and those it ultimately harms. Another problem is that the intense politicization of the entire issue has made it hard for scientists to study it and publish findings with anything like the objectivity it deserves.
[NOTE: And this is just a horrendous, tragic story. It also indicates that Belgium has embarked on a very bad path.]
What really bothers me is that this is all being turned into a fad, which I’m pretty sure lots of people with other problems will run to. This is a good piece on the topic. It might help take some people out of their fantasy land.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/04/why-bruce-jenner-can-never-be-a-woman/
Far too much effort is made bending over backwards for tiny minorities, while scant attention is paid to the majority. That’s a bad way to run a country. It’s also a bad way to make laws.
During my college years (around 1990) I took a sociology class and the professor was an hippie leftist and he brought in a post surgery male to female transgender to talk to the class. This woman (and I will refer to her as a woman because of the surgery) was probably about 50 at the time and had the surgery about ten years earlier was obviously deeply troubled as she talked of suicide attempts both before and after the surgery but was putting on a show (it seemed to me) that this was the greatest thing she ever did. The things that stood out to me was that she had been a heterosexual male and was now a lesbian and that she was almost a cartoon version of a woman. She had gotten huge breast implants and had these long bright red fingernails and wore enough makeup to supply a small town. Think a far, far less attractive Dolly Parton. I’ve often wondered what became of this person. I fear it was a not a happy ending.
Obviously every person and situation is different but she gave off the vibe of being a deeply troubled person and the fact that some doctor agreed to surgery on her has informed my opinion on the issue ever since.
Can’t we all just ignore Jenner?
And in the academic arena, the ‘T” in LBGQT is being pushed hard. The attempt at my school to make all bathrooms gender neutral was the latest attempt. It only made it so far when there was a revolt of many of the admin assistants (all female) who did not want to have to use a restroom where they had no idea who the person sharing the facility with them was in terms of gender.
From what Neo says, it seems at best these are very troubled people, and to make the rest of society conform to their wishes seems absurd. Sympathy and help, but not a wholesale restructuring.
One aspect of the recent push to normalize transgenderism as well “gender fluidity” I find upsetting is that it does exactly what it claims to abhor: classifies gender by a person’s traits and interests. When I was a kid I was a tomboy – climbing trees, playing little league, playing with cars and legos, catching snakes, dreaming of being an astronaut, and wearing nothing but jeans and overalls (I hated girly apparel, but liked dolls). I was just being a kid and having fun (with other girls who were tomboys). Now people look at a girl with similar interests/traits and speculate that she may actually identify as a boy, or may be a lesbian. It’s ridiculous and places such a burden on children just following their interests and trying out new things.
What Lizzy said about placing such a burden on children in trying out new things and following their interests.
And yes – I’d very much like to ignore Jenner, as well as the entire Jenner- Kardashian-Kanye train-wreck of a clan, but the ferret-faced exhibitionists seem to be everywhere!
The “State of the TrannyUnion” is just another daily report from The Freak Show.
To point out the obvious, you can’t change sex or gender or whatever it is being called by surgery or hormone injections. I grew up in New Mexico and every year the ranchers would round up the cattle and the new calves would be branded (ear tags today) and the male calves castrated. This was not called gender transition surgery and nobody claimed those calves became female.
Having once been a decathelete myself, I can’t help wondering if Caitlyn will continue to pole vault, or if that event will remain with Bruce?
Since Caitlyn Jenner made the cover of Vanity Fair, I think they should have a cover of Chelsea Manning with the title, Be All That You Can Be In The Army.
Nothing “on average” about the Johns Hopkins findings. To quote your quotation, “Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as “satisfied” by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.” Themselves is the subjective; the psycho-social data were presumably as objective as psycho-social can be. So that was a two-armed unblinded unrandomized retrospective study.
Transgenderism is a mental disorder; the high suicide rate is a demonstration thereof. TG may merely be a symptom of a further disturbed mind. We really cannot help them, but to pretend they deserve their own unfettered place in the sun, doing their own thing, using whatever restroom they want, going to Barnard because they “identify” as, or with, women, is all more than a bit much.
Ray:
Super, super liberal Yahoo “news” has a story from the NYT (and obviously fed to them via an advocacy group) about trans in the military. One subject asserted that there were 15k trans in the military!
The Left has used this technique of wildly overestimating numbers to great success. People think the homosexual population is about 10% when the actual number is less than 2%.
The featured person was FTM. All muscled up with hormones and steroids and way, way too many tats. He was set to marry another trans and I think the other person was MTF but not exactly certain. Circus freak show. The couple wants to get married and have kids.
I’m indifferent to whether someone wants to go through such surgery or whatever. I only read any of this one because it’s here.
What I object to is that several states require insurance companies to include this in their packages meaning everyone else not involved helps pay for it.
Same for a criminal locked up in a prison. I read somewhere that a prisoner is getting such an operation. Was there no adult around? Just say no.
Class of 2015 at Harvard College, 13% self-identify as gay, bi-sexual or something else, 69% of women are liberal.
Neo: “Another problem is that the intense politicization of the entire issue has made it hard for scientists to study it and publish findings with anything like the objectivity it deserves.”
This, yes this is exactly the problem with so many issues today – it all becomes very political to the point of science being pushed aside.
In a Q & A session Ayn Rand was asked her opinion about deformity and ugliness in art. She used the example of seeing a stunningly beautiful woman dressed for the opera but having a cold sore on her lip. She said that the physical blemish should be overlooked. But if an artist painted the same woman with the cold sore it would be an obscenity.
That is what Bruce Jenner has done. He’s taken his mental deformity and paraded it on the cover of Vanity Fair as art. No effing way is this man anything other than a very sick publicity hound trying to compete with the dysfunctional family he married into.
As George Carlin said: When you’re born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you’re born in America, you get a front-row seat.
Pro-choice doctrine, beginning with selective child, continuing with gender equivalence, and now trans equivalence, is notably selective.
Why don’t “equal” people support equality? Why do “no labels” people create too many labels? Why has selective exclusion been accepted as “progressive” and tolerant?
The secular opiates to suppress integrity and conscience must be really potent. Far more effective than anything religion or moral philosophy could ever hope to realize.
Transsexuals are not the only ones who suffer mental anguish over their condition. It was in the early 60s when one of the officers in my unit committed suicide. Everyone was amazed. He seemed the epitome of the bachelor fighter pilot who had big parties every weekend with lots of women at his pad. After the investigation was over it turned out he was gay but wanted to be straight. Only one other officer I talked to suspected that he might be gay. He covered his tendencies that well. Had he lived in today’s society he might not have been driven to suicide. It would be interesting to know how many gays feel really upset that they aren’t like the rest of their gender when it comes to sexual attraction. And how many of them would take any medical remedy available to change and become straight. I doubt such research has been or will be done.
When I worked in the Emergency Room we saw quite a few transgender individuals at various stages of their journey through life. I think I’m safe enough here that I can just flat-out say that the one characteristic they all had in common was that they were incredibly creepy human beings to be around.
They tended to be hypochondriacs, so some of them visited us frequently, in the middle of the night, with a stomach-ache or headache, some vague complaint… I never saw one that was not unemployed and on welfare.
These days, both f-to-m and m-to-f are, I believe, more confident, at least superficially. The f-to-m lesbians, with sculpted facial hair and elective mastectomies, revel in their status as the ultimate something-or-other, beyond even what you might find in the latest Road Warrior movie.
Notable, too, how often the m-to-fs have no desire to become “hetero,” but want to be lesbians, as do the f-to-ms.
“No, I’m not gay,” Jenner told Diane Sawyer. “I’m not gay. I am, as far as I know, heterosexual.” He added “I’ve never been with a guy. I’ve always been married raising kids,” however, he also stressed that he will be learning a lot about himself as he continues his transition.
I have no idea what that all means. I don’t think Jenner does either.
I fear that a month, a year or three from now, after wide ranging conflict, possibly nuclear, has started, we will long for these present good old days, when newsies had the time to talk of such minor things as these.
miklos:
Well, you certainly didn’t see a random sample of transgendered people. My guess is that you saw a particular group that liked to frequent emergency rooms on a regular basis.
I actually am acquainted with two transgendered people who seem very well-adjusted and you probably wouldn’t think much about them if you passed them on the street. As I said in the article, there’s a large variety of transgendered people and although there definitely is a much-higher-than-average percentage of disturbed and especially suicidal people among them, it is not necessarily the majority and certainly not all.
expat Says:
“What really bothers me is that this is all being turned into a fad”
Yep. Has caught on as such. Of course; its pushed by the celebrate (do it; its mandatory!) diversity PC crowd… as an offshoot of a ‘war on’ narrative. But it’s gone mainstream to some degree / actually caught on with many without being forced…
The fact that Jenner still identifies as a heterosexual makes it likely that he is a garden variety transvestite who has been caught up in the social surge to promote the transgendered state as the new normal. Now that he has been outed it would be very hard for him to know when to stop in his feminization. If my hunch is correct and if he does have gender reassignment surgery because of social pressure he will probably be greatly disappointed afterwards but will probably never admit it.
The best explanation I’ve read for transvestism is that the male passing as a female is on vacation from being a male. How long they remain on vacation or if they ever return depends on which gender role fulfills their needs better. For Jenner his male persona has been quite successful so he has remained male most of his life. The positive aspects of the male role explains why he reversed his previous attempt at transition and remarried as a man. If he does undergo gender reassignment surgery he will lose the possibility to return to his male persona.
My biggest concern is what I’ve read about this stuff being included in the teaching of our kids; even K-12. I can imagine its effect on kids entering into their own sexual awareness.
Thanks Dennis – that clears it up. Pole vaulting is definitely off the list of events Jenner will compete in,
Indoctrination isn’t about teaching. And polls aren’t about reflecting Public opinion but conforming Public opinion.
The objective is to mold the minds and hearts of humans into perfectly controlled livestock. If the livestock themselves acclaim their status as being free, then all the better as promotion material.
“My biggest concern is what I’ve read about this stuff being included in the teaching of our kids; even K-12.
Yes. Not only that, but budding elementary school-aged kids are bringing the transgender fight to school, such as a Coy Mathis. At age six s/he was fighting the school to use the girl’s room instead of the unisex bathroom that was made available to him. Hard to avoid discussing this w/your first grader when she has to share a bathroom with a student with a penis.
I know that this is a legitimate issue with a small segment of our population, and I wish them no harm or discomfort. I can’t imagine what it’s like to feel your body is rebelling against you. However, I am not OK with completely re-organizing our society to accommodate them. In addition, I do think that this fad of insisting one’s young child (age 5 or so) is transgender simply because she likes cars & dinos, or he likes dolls & dress-up, is a parental sickness along the lines of Munchausen by Proxy syndrome. Think a lot of these kids will be quite messed up adults when they realize what oh-so tolerant mom did to them for the attention.
Coach is right:
…A coalition of Blacks, Latinos, Feminists, Gays , Government Workers, Union Members, Environmental Extremists, The Media, Hollywood, uninformed young people, the “forever needy,” the chronically unemployed, illegal aliens and other “fellow travelers” have ended Norman Rockwell ‘s America . The Cocker Spaniel is off the front porch… The Pit Bull is in the back yard. The American Constitution has been replaced with Saul Alinsky ‘s “Rules for Radicals” and Chicago shyster, David Axelrod, along with international Socialist George Soros will be pulling the strings on their beige puppet to bring us Act 2 of the New World Order.
… Our side ran two candidates who couldn’t even win their own home states, and Chris Christie helped Obama over the top with a glowing “post Sandy” tribute that elevated the “Commander-in-Chief” to Mother Teresa status. (Aside: with the way the polls were run, he didn’t need any help!) People like me are completely politically irrelevant, and I will never again comment on or concern myself with the aforementioned coalition which has surrendered our culture, our heritage and our traditions without a shot being fired.
You will never again out-vote these people. It will take individual acts of defiance and massive displays of civil disobedience to get back the rights we have allowed them to take away.
It will take Zealots, not moderates & shy not reach-across-the-aisle RINOs to right this ship and restore our beloved country to its former status.
Those who come after us will have to risk “their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor” to bring back the Republic that this generation has timidly frittered away due to “white guilt” and political correctness….
http://www.coachisright.com/time-is-like-a-river/
Zieg!
Put me in the mental disorder camp. I say it’s along the lines of intrusive thinking. And I agree with Lizzy about Moms who say this about their small children (i.e., toddler boys who supposedly hate their penis, etc.). These mothers need to be evaluated closely for Munchausens by Proxy.
J.J.
A huge amount of research has been done on homosexuality.
Go here. http://mygenes.co.nz/
Accepting delusions of mentally disturbed persons at face value is a bad way to help them. What is worse, it is accepting these delusions as facts in public life will lead many other young people believe that they, too, were mistakingly “trapped” in wrong body – this makes press pusher of epidemic of mental disease, ruining lives of lot more people. I call this heresy – an epidemic of mental disease like those that were so abundant in Middle Ages. We are really going into new Dark Age.
Neo, thank you for this refreshingly sane post. Trans people have been among the most important people in my life and I am pretty tired of all the hysteria on the blogosphere. I am hoping that Caitlyn Jenner’s case will stimulate more well-informed and thoughtful discussion such as this.
Sergey,
Thanks very much for adding to the much-disdained and oft-muted voice of reason. “Accepting delusions of mentally disturbed persons at face value is a bad way to help them” is followed by the rest of your sound logic.
It troubles me to see “truth” as represented by anecdotal assertions about “well-adjusted transgenders we have known” and the like.
Johns Hopkins said what about the “psychosocial” state of transgenders with or without transformative surgery? The Hop said neither the operated nor the non-operated group is healthily normal. Neither.
Jenner is most likely mentally unhealthy. That said, he may also be very canny. He’s certainly poised to make money off of this.
Neo’s Belgian link is to a TG who suicided at age 41, having been rejected by his momma since birth for being an XX. In the immortal phrase, “So it goes.”
40% of TGs attempt suicide. Some succeed.
Why should we encourage this TG stuff? Tell me again.
Frog:
My point is that generalizations cannot be made as though transsexuals people are a unitary group. Let’s estimate, for example, that 50% have serious mental troubles, and a significant percentage of the remainder would do well with surgery, or hormones without surgery, and transition. The task for medicine would be to effectively differentiate between the two and give the appropriate treatment.
Ray, thanks for the link. More info than I could ever digest. Why isn’t more of this put out to the general public? In making judgments about same sex marriage, gays in the military, and more, the average person is, like me, woefully unaware of all the research.
I don’t accept the idea that gayness is not hardwired. Who would chose to be different in such an important part of who we are? It just does not pass the smell test for me. Why aren’t we seeing lots of formerly gay people coming forward proclaiming that they have been cured? That’s the kind of thing that could have a big impact on how people look at homosexuality. Would it not?
Neo: I cannot accept your estimate that 50% have serious mental “troubles” ( interesting choice of word, troubles, coming from a therapist/ lawyer who well knows the value of words and definitions). When 40+% attempt suicide the total % of seriously troubled must be much higher than your 50%.
What does it mean to be in the “significant number” that would do “well” with hormones without surgery? They would be frauds, big-breasted women with atrophied penises and testes, who still like to pee standing up. Since sex reassignment surgery does not yield psychosocial adjustment better than those not operated, why should we not consider what to do and not do to the non-operated set.
Maybe doing nothing is the best option.Maybe there are some things we should not try to change because we can’t do so.
Frog:
Since none of us knows the actual figure, 50% was a hypothetical (“for example”). Any figure is just a guess, but my point is that a very significant percentage are troubled, and a very significant percentage report that they are doing well and seem to be doing well (I know some of these people, and they in fact are doing well).
It’s really not your definition of whether they’re “frauds” or not that matters. It’s the evidence of their lives and what they do with them that matters. Here’s a piece from Powerline about one of them (not one of the people I know), one whose life and work seem eminently sane.
Johns Hopkins is not saying all transsexuals do poorly, they are saying that the success rate is not high enough to justify the surgery in their opinion. That’s their prerogative. They’re talking averages. But that’s quite different from saying that no transgendered people do well, or that they all have some sort of mental illness. There are no statistics that back up that contention.
I have read that the Hopkins Study has been pretty much discredited due to using a small and fairly troubled sample of people to begin with. At this point, just about all mainstream psychiatric and medical authorities are on board with treatment for gender dysphoria (or whatever one wishes to call it) being a process of hormones, living in the desired “target” sex, and often, if not always, some form of surgery. I posted this link before but it seems like it would be good to post again. I am not one who has an exhaustive knowledge of these studies, I don’t have them on the tip of my tongue, but there are some who do. http://www.transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm
About the much vaunted “surgery”. There are many surgeries though I know that generally people mean genital surgery. There are many reasons people who are transitioning don’t or do have genital surgery and it really varies for each person. Some people take years to get it, sometimes over ten or twenty- even after being transitioned in every other way — and yes, some don’t ever get it. They may have health issues that preclude a major surgery, they may not be able to afford it, they might not want it or feel that it is unnecessary considering the imperfect results one might get. The hormones change the genitals and their function any way, as they change everything else about the person. Which is not to say that for many, “bottom” or genital surgery is not important. Obviously, this is a personal matter. You can’t tell off-hand from looking since most people don’t walk around naked most of the time, so really– no one often knows except that person and their most intimate partners. And, most trans people that I know avoid being naked in gym locker rooms like the plague and avoid being naked in public more than the average person would. It is just about our least favorite thing to do in the world. Of course, like anything, there are exceptions. But the point being that surgery is not always the goal, “bottom” surgery — and that this is a long medical, social and legal process and not simply a genital sex change surgery. The surgery is kind of the icing on the cake, but not the cake! Personally, from what I have seen and experienced, I think the hormones do the real work of changing a person, without the hormones there is no real change. And, living in the world long term and being re-socialized is also important. And, again, there are other surgeries… Really for a person like me, “top surgery” was very important and that is one that nearly all guys like me get, we do have our female breasts removed and our chest contoured to look like a natural male chest. For many, this is the biggest deal and the most important surgery.
In any event, I hope Caitlyn is happy and it must be very difficult living under the microscope of the public, but I think that her transitioning public in the long run may have a positive effect. The fact that she identifies as a conservative and is a Republican (!) is also amazing and something that is not expected but just shows we are regular (if admittedly different) people. But lots of people have something unusual or different about them… Or know someone who does.
I do think that people who are going from being male to being women in the world, who go in that direction, have the most difficult time. The MTFs or trans women… They face sometimes daily ridicule and ostracism, from all kinds of people – this is not politics specific. People like me, so-called “trans men” — or FTMs, are able to pretty much slip under the radar over time and no one ever believes I was ever anything but a man now, and that’s just fine by me. However, if people do find out since I am a writer and not always secretive (I am more secretive about voting Republican now! That’s a real scandal!) sometimes people feel they need to sort me out in a different way. I mean, rethink if I am a man or not. My experience has been that they pretty much forget about it after this short period of rethinking it and just see me as a man. I have never had any real issue with that. But, that’s because I am pretty convincing. It is easier going in this direction for many reasons… This is all to say simply that the trans people who commit suicide sometimes get sick of the ridicule, the hate and exclusion. I don’t experience that and I am glad for it, though there have been issues here and there of course, but still. I pretty much live my life day to day and am just fine. I am happy I live in a place and a time where this is available. It is my own” American dream”!
I do acknowledge that there are likely people who do this who possibly should not, or some who have other mental health issues that may not preclude them doing transition, but that may not be resolved by transition. Some may have other issues like bipolar or depression or whatever… like many individuals do. And it is important to note that transition does NOT solve all of one’s problems. One still have to work on one’s issues no matter what. I mean, life goes on.
My biggest problem now is extricating myself from the left! Haha — I also have my own problems that have nothing to do with sex or gender etc. Although I have been blessed to not have major mental health issues in my life, and have clean bills of health regarding that from shrinks in the past.
Any way– I think in time more people will be accepting just as they are of gay and lesbian people. We do have more important problems right now, and I spend more time thinking about those. I mean, the other things we discuss here like radical Islam, the economy and so on…
And, I take the fact that Caitlyn said she was not “gay” as a man to mean that she has always been attracted to women. She may become a lesbian. I hope she avoids some of the bad lesbian folk music I have heard in my life. Other than that, I wish her all the best. I guess in time, if people are interested, she will reveal exactly how this change affects her life Possibly she will get interested in men! People have changes in their sexual preference sometimes that they did not anticipate once they do make that change. To be honest, I am not watching too closely since I am bored with the subject. Even if I feel some obligation and interest to comment here. But after 26 years as a man now, well, as I said in my comment above, life goes on!
I will cease commenting after this, but here is a list and photos of successful trans men and women, or men and women who transitioned and are doctors, therapists, Rabbis, professors, computer programmers, artists, scientists, construction workers etc.
The trans men first, I’m in there with more hair and much younger – (Max W. V) — for what it’s worth. And, there are many amazing guys there who are not on welfare! Heh — many lead pretty ordinary if accomplished lives. Here: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TransMen.html
And, here are the trans women:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html
Yes, there are some nut jobs but there are also many successful and well adjusted folks out there also. Just thought I would throw these examples in as I think Lynn Conway, herself a success story, did a great job.
I wonder if Liberty Wolf knows how many female to male transgenders there are compared to the number of male to female transgendered people?
I’ve always considered myself conservative but perhaps I’m more libertarian than I thought since I feel uncomfortable with the level of hostility some conservatives have expressed against transgendered people. My view of conservatism is that traditional values are valuable specifically because they promote the personal freedoms which enable people like liberty wolf to chose how they live their lives. As liberty wolf points out, many transgendered people do not need or want to have surgery “down under”. I’m concerned about the social pressure Jenner is probably under to go that route since it is permanent.
Liberty Wolf, thanks for your very illuminating comments.
Dennis:
I tend towards the libertarian side as well.
As I see it, libertarians can be conservatives of liberals. I’m a conservative libertarian, but not an extreme libertarian compared to most. Sounds like you are in more or less the same place on the spectrum as I am.
I think some of the animus here towards transgendered people comes from the perception that many of them are trying to now push this state as perfectly normal and even laudable, and are also asking for the public to pay for surgery (in the military and in prison, for example). Also, teaching kids about it as a perfectly fine option, even very young kids.
Dennis:
I think there are roughly the same number of FTMs to MTFs. This was not always the case, but it has changed in the past thirty years or so. As for the genital surgery, often called “SRS” it is not the only permanent effect of medical transition. Yes, it is very permanent and a very important decision, but hormones in and of themselves will enable a genetic male to grow real breasts and some have grown quite a set (so to speak!) Of course, some supplement with surgery but more than a few are able to grow more than they would have dreamed possible – all on their own. It all depends on genetics and what is in a person’s DNA. Also, all trans women without question undergo permanent beard and body hair removal. Trans men will grow beards and acquire body hair as anyone who looks at the link of successful trans men will see. Again, DNA will play a tremendous part in how hairy (or not) anyone gets. There are a lot of changes that are not readily or reversible at all so all along you have to be ready for the fact that this is real and serious and something that will change your life forever. It is only suitable for those who are very, very motivated. For us, it is the most wonderful thing we could have imagined, aside from winning the lottery! ;0
Any way, many who get bottom surgery are quite happy but I advise people to make sure they know what they are getting. I would hope Jenner, since she is so very cautious, and has taken this long to really make her move, would continue that open eyed approach and that she does what is right for her.
I share your take on classic liberal (libertarian leaning) values Dennis. I would hope that some of these conservatives come around, and of course — there have always been some conservatives who are supportive. There are radical leftists, notably certain feminists – who are not. Sometimes with more information people are able to understand things they did not previously. But again, to me, classic liberalism frees people to make the choices they deem best for themselves, the much stories pursuit of happiness. Also as medical technology becomes more advanced, we all have more choices to improve our lives.
Asher – you are welcome. I don’t always comment on this topic but I am happy to if it sheds some light.
I guess I should preview my posts, I meant “the much storied pursuit of happiness”, not the “much stories”… oh well!
What is completely unknown now and in forseeable future is the very existence of transsexuality. This actually is an article of faith, since it is solely based on purely subjective perceptions of affected persons which can be hysterical delusions. No objective method to test gender self-identification exists and quite probably can not exist. In Middle Ages, for analogy, erotic nightdreams were ascribed to demons – succubs and incubs – and womans having such “sexual intercourses” with demons were persecuted by Inquisition. They themselves believed in reality of their sins. Witchhunt in Salem also was based on these superstutions.
Welcome to the new Dark Age, where untestable conjectures are percieved as the only admissible truth, heresies are persecuted, mass hysteria and moral panic shape all political discussions.
I do find this study telling as quoted by Neo: — nearly two-thirds of respondents who were the victims of domestic violence at the hands of a family member had attempted suicide, the study also showed. Suicide attempts were less common among transgender and gender-nonconforming people who said their family ties had remained strong after they came out…
Being “out” as transgender was also tied to steeper risk, the study showed: People who tell everyone that they are transgender or gender-nonconforming, or who said that other people could always or usually tell that they were transgender, were more likely to have attempted suicide. —
Also, the sad story of the Belgian trans guy who committed suicide had a mother who was cold and rejecting from the get- go of his life. Sad that he would choose to end his life but apparently, as Neo points out this points out a larger problem in Belgium. I read in that article that anorexics and depressives are also doing euthenasia. Shows how this should just never be allowed by the state. It is too easy for people to take that route if it is there for them and sanctioned. Chances are, if they had not had that route, they might have come around to find hope in their lives again.
The study above is telling though as it points out that family support is crucial to well-being of trans people as any other group of people. Having a kind and loving family helps to render a better life outcome. Also, the fact that trans people are happier and less suicidal if they generally don’t tell other people is interesting. Or if they can generally slip under the radar without people being able to tell they went through this gender transition process. Obviously, some are pushed to suicide buy social pressures as well. I tell people not to count on any great social understanding since it may not be forthcoming. But one has to cultivate real friends and inner strength and faith. And, learn to live life without other people’s general approval. Not an easy task, but one that many have to do, not just people like myself.
I have said more than I wanted already. I hope it shed some light.
I think there are roughly the same number of FTMs to MTFs.
My impression is that there are many more male-to-female surgeries. A recent Wash. Post article quotes perhaps the most well-known U.S. surgeon who does sex-reassignment surgery on that:
“Marci Bowers, a transgender obstetrician and gynecologist in Burlingame, Calif., who performs the surgeries, said in an interview that she does about 200 per year herself, about three quarters of them male to female.”
Ann – Again, I am not talking about surgeries per se. But people who have transitioned legally, socially and otherwise medically.
However, my figures may be wrong. Those were the figures bandied about for some time and I guess it depends on who you ask. Here however are some stats from UCSF which are more recent I believe and hopefully have some accuracy. They state: —Worldwide estimates for transwomen are 1 in every 30,000 people. Transmen are estimated at 1 in every 100,000 people. (1, 2) However, these numbers are likely an underestimate because they only account for trans people diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder and/or people receiving services at gender clinics, which we know are not inclusive of all trans people. —
So possibly Dr. Bowers is correct. In my life, I know at least as many trans men as trans women but that might be because of my own subjective bias. Certainly, our numbers appear comparable though I stand corrected that there may in fact be more MTFs worldwide than FTMs. Maybe in my circles, there is parity due to where I live or who connects with me online and in person.
I do appreciate the reasoned tone of this post and the refreshing (for blogs in general, that is — usual to this one) admissions when “we just don’t know” something.
I also appreciate Liberty Wolf’s very interesting posts.
However, I do not see how it is possible, physically or metaphyscially, to “be” a different gender than one’s body. I do see that is quite possible to feel that way.
I’m basically neutral, via the fact that society is corrupt and if it ever tried to contaminate me with the views of external Authority, I would kick it in the teeth and watch as they drown in their own blood.
As I have yet to meet FTM/MTF, to my knowledge, it’s not something I need to have a reaction to, positive or negative.
The Japanese sub cultures do have a better understanding of gender stereotypes and social roles. America, because people like to pretend we’re all equal, tend to have heavy reactions to the unknown. While not all sub cultures are radical or designed to bring down the mainstream, because the possibility is there, there is a natural emotional reaction on the part of the tribal members to reject the foreign. Because the foreign is also the dangerous.
The Gaystapo have not conquered fear of the unknown. If anything, their extreme tactics means they are the most cowardly of them all, even if they are fanatics the same as our own true believers and zealots.