Trump: tax returns and wealth
Yesterday Mitt Romney said some interesting things about Donald Trump and his tax returns, and they got picked up by a lot of news outlets and pundits. This is the way his remarks were generally reported:
There might be a “bombshell” revelation to be discovered in Republican presidential frontrunner Donald Trump’s tax returns, 2012 party nominee Mitt Romney said Wednesday.
He also called on the entire GOP field to release their tax returns.
“I think there’s something there,” Romney said of Trump’s returns, “Either he’s not anywhere near as wealthy as he says he is, or he hasn’t been paying the kind of taxes we would expect him to pay,” Romney, a former Massachusetts governor, told Fox News’ Neil Cavuto on “Your World.”
Trump supporters felt that this was a low blow, and unsubstantiated as well. Also, coming from Romney—the guy many judge as having been insufficiently hard on Obama in 2012—it seemed uncharacteristic.
As usual, though, it’s always instructive to look at the transcript, and then to do a little digging into the background. In the full transcript Romney went into more detail than that. He went on to say:
…[P]erhaps [Trump] hasn’t been giving money to the vets or to the disabled like he’s been telling us he’s been doing…The reasons that I think there’s a bombshell in there is because every time he’s asked about his taxes he dodges and delays and says, well, we’re working on it. Hey, we’re not talking about the taxes that are coming due this year…We’re talking about taxes already filed, back taxes, my back taxes when I ran in 2012, my back taxes I put out in January of 2012.
Then Romney called for the other candidates to do so as well, something he had said at the beginning of the interview, too, before he made the “bombshell” statement about Trump.
Romney added:
Donald Trump likes to tell you how wealthy he is, how he’s worth billions of dollars. The first time he was asked about his taxes on the “Today” show he said, you know, they’re beautiful. They’re big and they’re, well, great, let us see them.
Romney made it clear he has no hard evidence about Trump, but is suspicious because of Trump’s dragging his feet. Many other people who are discussing this assume there was no evidence for Romney’s claim, either. But—whether Romney has seen it or not (and I have no idea whether he has or hasn’t)—there actually is some evidence from the past, originating in a defamation lawsuit Trump filed in 2009.
Please take a look at this NR article by Ian Tuttle entitled “The Litigious—and Bullying—Donald Trump.” The following Trump exchange took place during a suit Trump lodged against Tim O’Brien, the author of a biography that claimed Trump’s worth was far far less than Trump claims:
In 2004, O’Brien had co-authored a piece for the Times detailing Trump’s financial woes ”” he had recently filed for the third of what would be four Chapter 11 bankruptcies ”” and quoted anonymous sources who reported that Trump’s wealth was not nearly what he claimed; in fact, it was in the hundreds of millions, they said…Trump, meanwhile, notoriously unreliable in his own estimates, offered figures ranging from $1.7 billion to $9.5 billion. In [his biography] TrumpNation, O’Brien cited those numbers, alongside “three people with direct knowledge of Donald’s finances” who estimated his wealth was “somewhere between $150 million and $250 million.” Trump denied it, in his usual colorful fashion: “You can go ahead and speak to guys who have four-hundred-pound wives at home who are jealous of me, but the guys who really know me know I’m a great builder.”
Trump filed a lawsuit asking for $5 billion damages. It’s really worth reading the whole Tuttle article, but here are some excerpts [emphasis mine]:
Those who think Trump is a “winner” ought to take a close look at Donald Trump v. Timothy L. O’Brien. Because Trump didn’t just lose the case. He was humiliated…
“The case dragged on for as long as it did because he wouldn’t comply with discovery requests,” says O’Brien. “He wouldn’t turn over the tax returns, then the tax returns came in almost so completely redacted as to be useless.”…
And, of course, Trump himself was deposed, leading to the following exchange, a crystallization of the Trump ethos:
Q: Now, Mr. Trump, have you always been completely truthful in your public statements about your net worth of properties?
A: I try.
Q: Have you ever not been truthful?
A: My net worth fluctuates, and it goes up and down with markets and with attitudes and with feelings, even my own feelings, but I try.
Q: Let me just understand that a little bit. Let’s talk about net worth for a second. You said that the net worth goes up and down based upon your own feelings?
A: Yes, even my own feelings, as to where the world is, where the world is going, and that can change rapidly from day to day. Then you have a September 11th, and you don’t feel so good about yourself and you don’t feel so good about the world and you don’t feel so good about New York City. Then you have a year later, and the city is as hot as a pistol. Even months after that it was a different feeling. So yeah, even my own feelings affect my value to myself.
Q: When you publicly state what you’re worth, what do you base that number on?
A: I would say it’s my general attitude at the time that the question may be asked. And as I say, it varies.
That doesn’t mean it’s easy to estimate the worth of an individual like Trump, whose single main asset appears to be his “brand”—in his case the name “Trump”:
Donald Trump’s net worth is $2.9 billion ”” far less than the $10 billion the real estate mogul and GOP presidential hopeful claims he’s worth, according to a new Bloomberg analysis.
Trump, who has made his personal wealth part of his pitch to voters, released a 92-page rundown of his net worth last week. He calculated his fortune at $8.7 billion, including $3.3 billion for the value of his name, in the federal disclosure form.
Bloomberg tallied up Trump’s real estate holdings, including his share of several skyscrapers, golf courses and resorts, based on the current income generated by those properties, which is its standard approach for valuing such assets.
Bloomberg estimated Trump’s golf and resort properties at a combined $570 million, while Trump pegged the properties’ value at $2 billion “without disclosing his methodology.”
So I cannot help but wonder how much of the Trump story is self-constructed myth and how much truth. When it was just Trump the celebrity out there in the world, I really didn’t care at all. But if he’s asking to be president, and it’s based at least in part on his record in business (not to mention his veracity), I think we all need to care.
I have said that I have no idea whether Romney was aware of the Trump lawsuit against Tim O’Brien when Romney made his statement, which was couched within a blanket request by Romney for all the candidates to release their tax forms. Nor do I know if Romney has seen articles such as this one, which discusses Trump’s philanthropic activities in some detail, and finds his donations wanting for a man of his wealth (see also this).
[NOTE: Here’s O’Brien’s side of the story.]
[NOTE II: By the way, I had done a significant amount of the research for this post before Romney made his statement. It was in connection with a post I was planning about the extent of Trump’s wealth. This information has been in the public domain for quite some time and is actually rather easy to find.]
Great work Neo!
I knew about that lawsuit but the details are critical.
Please forward this research to the people asking questions tonight and every single host at Fox. I also think he is on Morning Joe tomorrow. His friends Joe and Mikka can ask him about this and “his own personal Vietnam.”
One easy question: Mr. Trump is it true that you attribute $3 billion of your net worth to the value of your name alone?
Aside: A brand name – like Coke – has a real accounting and financial value – that can be measured by markets. The brand name “Trump” can have money value but it is not $3 billion. I personally think his name is Mudd.
Lay people will not know this stuff and think it is crazy.
What I remember is that Harry Reid said that he had information that Romney had not paid any taxes for several years. It was a blatant lie and Reid knew it. But it became a big issue and was part of the ammunition the dems used to portray Romney as too rich to be in touch with the average person. Maybe Romney, who I assume is not for Trump, is using the same tactic. I would not expect Romney to do something like this, but politics ain’t bean bag.
Romney: “Perhaps he hasn’t been giving money to the vets or to the disabled like he’s been telling us he’s been doing.”
If the details on taxes don’t dent the enthusiasm of his supporters, I would think if it’s shown he’s not really given much to vets or the disabled that that should definitely give them pause. Especially coupled with the news also being pushed right now that he applied for a lot of “H” visas rather than hiring Americans.
J.J.,
I don’t think Romney would have done this if Trump hadn’t lied so often. He is also willing to take some of Trump’s heat off the candidates.
Smoke and mirrors. Will any of it matter? The Trumpsters seemed to be locked in emotionally, and information is irrelevant to them at this point.
On another blog, in which I expressed my objections to Trump, I was challenged to state whether I would vote for him if he were the nominee. I refused that commitment; but, there is the cadre who will rally around if he looks to have it in hand as the process goes forward–the bandwagon crowd.
I don’t even know what a successful outcome to the GOP primaries would look like. As I told my inquisitor, I am no fan of Bloomberg’s, but I do not think he would lead the country to ruin. That may be our best hope if this continues on the present course. He said a vote for Bloomberg wold be a de facto vote for Hillary. May take that risk.
I will comment that I saw Senator Cruz on the Kelly special last night. He is one impressive intellect and communicator. He spoke to the issues clearly and without equivocating. A shame that so much of the establishment will seemingly fight tooth and nail to deny him support.
Well, it’s certainly refreshing to see Romney has learned how to get down in the mud. It’s a shame he didn’t learn that lesson back in 2012 when he was still relevant. Still, without any proof he’s just spitballing and needs to put up or shut up. I’m much more interested in who has conscripted him to be the GOPe’s attack dog du jour.
Mitt is a proxy for Marco. Rubio refuses to attack Trump. It is up to Ted tonight. The election is on the line for Cruz. He needs to dish the dirt.
What Cruz must say tonight.
http://21stcenturywisdom.com
Inkraven:
I figured the Romney attacks would come; this post is not a re-hashing of anything about Romney. The facts don’t depend on who said what and why. The facts are facts, and since it’s Trump we are looking at now, they are relevant.
My focus is on the information I offered in this post.
Interesting that you ignore those. To me, those are the real issue.
Instead you seem to be “much more interested in who has conscripted [Romney] to be the GOPe’s attack dog du jour.”
J.J.:
My point is that I don’t think this is a lie. There is evidence for it, whether Romney knew it or not.
Plus, there is a difference between what Reid said and what Romney said. Romney explicitly said he had no evidence, and he is just wondering because Trump has been dragging his heels.
Reid made up some false “evidence.” That’s a whole nother ball game.
“Q: When you publicly state what you’re worth, what do you base that number on?
A: I would say it’s my general attitude at the time that the question may be asked. And as I say, it varies.”
He’s telling his ‘truth’ and, his sense of truth varies in accordance with his subjective (no objective standard of reference) perceptions of himself and the situation’s current circumstance.
Interestingly, such an individual cannot, in the conventional sense, lie because nothing he says is intentionally ‘untrue’, since truth is whatever he perceives it to be in that moment.
Okay, here was my thinking:
1) We haven’t heard from Mitt Romney for 4 years, ever since he lost his election. Why are we suddenly hearing from him now?
2) Why is he attacking another Republican, and specifically why is he attacking the leading candidate? Is this a new thing, bringing up your artillery and targeting your own side?
3) Mitt’s comments are nothing by speculation, he had NOTHING concrete, just flinging sh*t on the wall.
The only conclusion is the for some reason Romney was directed to lob grenades to try to take out Trump.
4) WTF cares about Trumps tax returns? We know he is rich, and we know just where his money comes from. It’s not that hard to google “trump buildings”.
There is no smoking gun that will deter the most fervent Trumpsters from their adoration of the donald. But knocking off 20 percent of his less enthusiastic supporters is crucial. And, yes Cruz needs to stop going after Rubio and Rubio after Cruz. Time to tag team Trump and goad him into a rabid dog biting at its own tail. This is especially in Rubio’s self interests as polls show Trump ahead in Florida, while Cruz has a comfortable lead in Texas. There will be plenty of time for them to resume their feud once Trump is torpedoed.
fred:
Of course Romney is against Trump and wants to bring out damaging information. That doesn’t make the information wrong—and my point is that, although Romney did not cite the evidence I presented here, it’s out there and he probably knows it. I would guess he knows it; if he doesn’t, he should, and so should all the candidates.
I certainly knew it. I certainly knew there are legions of credible allegations that Trump is way underestimating his financial holdings. That’s been known for years. All Romney probably did (or other people did) is to put 2 and 2 together. Trump is probably inflating his worth, perhaps by a lot. Trump has stalled on releasing his taxes. It’s certainly a logical conclusion and is NOT just flinging stuff at a wall. All Trump has to do is do what many candidates do and release them.
As for why we should care—tax returns have been a huge issue in campaigns for many years. And this should be especially true for Trump, whose record pretty much entirely consists of his claims about his great business success.
It’s not rocket science.
parker:
I absolutely agree that Trump’s strongest supporters will not care at all. Many of them wouldn’t care even if his money were proven to have been acquired through bank robbery. But I also think some Trump supporters who are not quite as immovable might care if he’s a lot less rich than he says.
Trump’s financial wealth is of importance for two reasons. First, has he exaggerated or even worse, lied? A small amount of exaggeration can be forgiven but outright lies are a huge red flag.
Liars lie either to gain advantage or to escape consequence. That goes to character. A man lacking in character cannot be trusted to fulfill his promises.
Secondly, if he’s lied it goes to his credibility, when he claims that his wealth assures voters that he can’t be bought. A man who tells blatant lies has no ethical barrier to being bought.
Is Trump the Zaphod Beeblbrox of our time? The description below is from Wikipedia about the character from “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.”
He was briefly the President of the Galaxy (a role that involves no power whatsoever, and merely requires the incumbent to attract attention so no one wonders who’s really in charge, a role for which Zaphod was perfectly suited).
As a character, Zaphod is hedonistic and irresponsible, narcissistic almost to the point of solipsism, and often extremely insensitive to the feelings of those around him. In the books and radio series, he is nevertheless quite charismatic which causes many characters to ignore his other flaws
1) We haven’t heard from Mitt Romney for 4 years, ever since he lost his election. Why are we suddenly hearing from him now?
——————
Not true. Romney has spoken up from time to time on various issues. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that he’s gotten involved in the 2016 campaign. But this isn’t the first time that we’ve heard from him over the last four years.
Geoffry Brittian:
I also refer to Sir Donald (the brave) as Sir Humpty-Trumpty because as you noticed his words mean exactly what he says they are no more no less. Not quite the quote. Have to look up Lewis Carrol.
Trump said tonight that he is being audited and can’t release his tax returns because of that. Plausible? Maybe.
Is someone who is auditing him (IRS) or one of his tax accountants leaking? Is there info being whispered about because of the leaks? That also doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility.
I think Romney knows that Trump was being audited and knew he would not be able to release his returns until after he’d been through the audit. Who in the heck would release taxes that are under an audit? What if he has to make adjustments?
He mentioned last night that he’s been audited every year for the last 12 years (I think it was). That seems pretty nuts.
Did you see the stack of papers that makes up his taxes? It was well above his head.
Besides, personal income taxes will not reveal anything about personal wealth. They only capture income for a year. That’s it. So the only thing he could be ‘hiding’ would be charitable donations or questionable write-offs. I’m guessing he probably gave more or less equally to causes on both sides. Just like he did with political contributions. He mostly donated to Republicans, but gave a fair share to Democrats.
I do not think tax returns of candidates belong in the public square. Period. Who was it that first demanded release?
From efile.com we have this:
“The practice of releasing tax returns when running for office didn’t become commonplace until the late 1960’s, which is also when presidential candidates, and not just presidents, began to routinely release their income tax returns to the public. In the runup to the 1968 presidential election, George Romney, a governor of Michigan at the time, released 12 years of his tax returns from 1955-1966 after being pressed on the topic by reporters. This set the precedent for presidential candidates to release their tax returns.”
Being pressed by reporters, huh? A “fat cat” being pressed caved in out of misplaced hope. The reporters then were not biased. Nooo. Romney was just too prosperous, too successful for them, and the reporters hoped to embarrass (and harm) him.
Started in 1968, huh? Just another lovely product of the 1960s.
Well, let us see what today’s reporters say about Hillary’s. I can hear the crickets tuning up now.
K-E:
All the legal commentary I’ve heard about it (which, granted, is about 3 people so far) has stated that an audit would not be a bar to releasing his tax forms.
Also, the demand is not about current taxes—back taxes would do. So I believe the audit thing is a red herring.
What’s more, if he’s been audited for 12 years, why didn’t he say so when he was talking to Hugh Hewitt a year ago and promised to release his taxes? If he already knew he was being audited and would be audited, why make that promise?
Could it be because being truthful is not something Trump is interested in?
Trump is rich. Everybody knows that. Seeing his tax returns won’t give anybody any important information that we don’t already know.
What he should have said is “go pound sand.” Actually, that’s what he said, just politely.
Out here in the real world, nobody cares about his — or any other candidates — tax returns. What people care about is their stated positions and if we think they’ll try to do what they say.
Control illegal immigration.
Limit immigration of Moslems.
Rubio is dead because he fails on #1.
Okay, “build a wall”. Easy to say, but since when has Trump ever built anything big, right?