Describing the Trump voter
Here are some observations from commenter “Bob” on the Trump voters he met and talked to while canvassing for Cruz about a week ago. I thought they were worth highlighting:
I canvassed for Cruz, and found it quite illuminating speaking directly with voters one on one. Although it is only anecdotal, in speaking with Trump supporters I would rate the groups in this ascending order: I found very few that would be considered the base (all older, mostly elderly that have voted republican for many years) a slightly higher percentage that I suspected of racism, some leftists, quite a few disaffected democrats, and a plurality that have never voted before (mostly limited education). My impression was that the vast majority were just fed up with the entire situation as it is today, and were extremely tired of hearing how it was all their fault because they were racist white people. In short, Trump definitely tapped into years of built up frustration with the anti PC language, and as a consequence, hardened their attitudes and made them fervent believers in all things Donald. With the supporters of all the other candidates there was at least a cordial exchange of ideas, a willingness for give and take, not one of his could I persuade in any way to even listen to any other viewpoint; their minds were made up, almost like they were victims of Trauma. Those that would speak to me at length would only reiterate the false talking points of Trump in an uninterrupted diatribe, quite a few slammed doors in my face. It was like Breibart’s comments section in the real world. The experience demonstrated quite clearly how a populist demagogue, like Mussolini who Trump reminds me of, could secure a loyal and dedicated following.
The Mussolini reference, by the way, is not to Trump’s policies, but to the devotion of his followers. Bob could just as easily have said Obama, or Huey Long, or any number of politicians who have engendered that sort of devotion.
Bob left out the activists, although I doubt they’d be answering the door to a canvasser and so I’m not sure he would meet any of them. I have a draft for a post on the alt-right, who are the Trump activists par excellence, and I keep promising to publish it but obviously I haven’t finished it yet. Soon.
Discontent is abroad in the land, and politicians who are smart will tap into it if they can. Trump has managed to do that. He’s been flirting with a presidential run for a long long time (that’s another draft of mine). But it’s only this year that he’s caught the wave and is in the process (most likely) or surfing it to the shore of the Republican nomination, whether most Republicans like it or not.
That’s still another draft of mine, by the way (I’m loaded with unfinished drafts; so much to think about): the fact that the majority of Republicans do not like it.
Michael Ledeen writes today in Forbes magazine specifically addressing Mussolini comparisons: Who’s A Fascist? Not Donald Trump
I read the Ledeen piece at Forbes.com, but I think the story below it, “Are Panties Made From GMO Cotton Causing Farmers To Commit Suicide?” is a much more important issue we should be discussing.
My Brother is anti-informed.
So, he’s a True Believer in Trump.
Pretty scary stuff right there.
So would you therefore say boxty that it is more pleasing to be the crisis than to reflect upon it as Ledeen suggests? So it would appear, at any rate. Still, that stance itself would be yet another peculiar form of hedonism to be sure, bearing along with it many other questions to be ignored.
IMO, Trump appeals to the poor, the ignorant, and the vengeful. There is a smaller segment who are dazzled by his dubious business acumen, especially regarding casinos and general real estate (that accounts for NV and HI).
They have legitimate grievances, and yes they’ve been bludgeoned with PC for decades and are fed up. But they’re also the people who mostly didn’t vote because of their cynicism, and as a result didn’t bother paying attention to politics. If they did vote, they were surprised that politicians turned out to be liars.
They want easy solutions, and are unwilling to do the hard work of maintaining a republic.
They have the same sense of righteousness and entitlement as most SJWs, and many of them eschew religion…some going as far as to openly mock it.
Matt
As one writer said, who wouldn’t want to send a human wrecking ball to DC.
It’s hard to blame people who found the republic gone by the time they reached voting age.
Getting it back through a system they think is rigged against them doesn’t seem like a useful attempt.
What do you do, for example, when the IRS comes down on a conservative group? Complain to Loretta Lynch? Obama? Clinton when he was in?
When a woman in Texas started a group called True The Vote, she was visited by the IRS, EPA, ATF, FBI and OSHA. Just a coincidence.
For some, the hard work of maintaining a republic doesn’t seem to lie in voting and writing letters to your representative.
Sending a human wrecking ball to DC–presuming that’s what turns out to be the case–might be the easiest way to fix things. It could be worse.
I favor Cruz, but he’s being drowned out by bluster. At the same time, if Trump gets the necessary votes and delegates and all the other necessities, I hope the party puts him up. Will of the people and all that.
What unites most Trumpkins are vengeance and cynicism.
You don’t save the village by destroying the village, and if Trump supporters appreciated history, they’d realize that what comes after a dramatic reset is more likely to be less free, not more.
Whatever their intentions, Trump is an imperfect vessel (understatement). They would have to elect him to find that out, but I’m not willing to take that gamble on my country, so I will oppose them and support Cruz instead.
If Cruz is elected and manages to turn the country around, the Trump supporters will fade away.
P.S. Trump’s passion play in Chicago didn’t seem to impress the caucus-goers of Wyoming:
With 73.9% of the vote in,
Cruz: 64.8%
Rubio: 25.3%
Trump: 4.9%
Uncommitted: 4.9%
Go, Wyoming!
Demagoguery seems to rule the day. I would love to hear first hand an intelligent description of the grievances that drive people to Trump rather than to others, such as Kasich, Cruz, or even Walker. (I name three who have actually worked within the system to bring about change.)
From the perspective of 80 years, I know that even with the frustrations that abound, we are all–and I mean all–better off than in the not so distant past. Too bad that the disenchanted cannot visit the ’30s, the war years, and even into the post-war decades for comparative purposes. Sure, most of the progress has been achieved outside of government–some might say in spite of–but, would not have been possible without the freedom of choice and action inherent in our constitutional system. If I were certain that Trump would revere and adhere to that system, I might feel differently about him, despite his crudeness. Frankly, given recent statements by Trump, as well as some high profile supporters, it would help to know which Trump is the one who would govern.
Since I am not poor, ignorant or angry, I guess I am that ‘small’ percentage of Trump people that some mention here. I think that ‘small’ percentage is a lot bigger than you know, as I have had quiet discussions with several thoughtful, smart, and un-angry people who think the same way I do. I do think we are the ‘silent majority’ that I see cropping up on signs at Trump events.
I wanted to respond to this:
“Demagoguery seems to rule the day. I would love to hear first hand an intelligent description of the grievances that drive people to Trump rather than to others, such as Kasich, Cruz, or even Walker.”
Grievance #1 – I have been duped too many times by the GOP candidates who tell me one thing and then do another once they get in office.
Grievance #2 – I am tired of being told I need to pick someone who is ‘presidential’ and has ‘detailed plans.’ Those have not seemed to work so far…detailed plans are given, nothing comes to fruition.
Grievance #3 – I vote every single election cycle for the Republican presidential candidate, even if I don’t really like him. Why this time are so many Republicans actively plotting against the front-runner? This makes me suspicious that there is a very active group of donors and GOP elites who have been running things and not listening to voters at all. Therefore, why should I chose the candidates they prefer?
Grievance #4 – Why was it all hunky dory when Romney ran that he had business experience, but Trump’s business experience is now bad, suspect, and always about ‘self-promotion’?
Grievance #5 – Please stop telling me I am dumb, ignorant, not engaged, not paying attention and need to do more research. I’ve done it already and made my choice. Don’t patronize me or give me more links to read or videos to watch.
Anyway, those are the first ones I’ve taken off the top of my head.
Oldflyer Says:
I would love to hear first hand an intelligent description of the grievances that drive people to Trump rather than to others…
I’ll take a stab:
I think Trump supporters feel that something isn’t right. They know it comes mostly from the left, but can’t find a way around the emotional bullying to discuss it (exactly as the left wishes). This discomfort is bottled up, with no outlet.
Part of the manifestation is racial. A certain racist strain has been noted in some of Trump’s supporters, and it absolutely exists. I believe it is a counter-reaction to the lionization of blacks in America, and the entire racist agenda of the left which comes at the expense of whites. To prove this, all you have to do is look at the list of grievance studies on any campus; “white issues” will not be found.
People don’t like being made to suffer for their skin.
Part of the manifestation is economic. Global free trade has not worked out as promised. Early critics were correct when they warned that it would be a race to the bottom, as low-income, low standard of living countries simply outbid America on jobs.
This impacted the low-to-mid-skilled jobs first; jobs that poor Chinese could be educated to do reasonably quickly, like steel work and manufacturing. Later, it hit other low-skilled sectors as workers were imported to take jobs here in America. The elites liked the low wages (indentured servitude), Democrats liked the votes.
Global AVERAGE wealth may have risen, but that happened by taking from American prosperity and distributing it to the Third World, where even a tiny increase is huge.
The last aspect is cultural, where the working classes are made to feel stupid for complaining that their standard of living is eroded, as elites sneer at them for being rubes.
The Democrats inflicted much of the harm, but Republicans did some too with their cronyism. Republicans are doubly-hated though because they promised to stop Democrats and instead joined them.
Betrayal is much more bitter than Democrats’ simple evil.
Most of what we’re seeing is again driven by vengeance. Trump’s supporters have a need to make their tormentors suffer. The ignorance comes in where the Trumpkins can’t tell who’s a conservative and who’s just been lying about it. They don’t try to figure it out; it’s just easier to paint with a broad brush.
Some of them say that they know they can’t trust Trump. They just want him to burn it all down. That’s the cynicism part.
Oldflyer. I had a buddy in high school who thought communism was the bomb because look where Russia was in 1017, and where it was back then (1962). I pointed out to him that we were all better off due in large part to improvements in technology, without the Gulags and twenty million dead and so forth.
He was unimpressed.
Point is, yeah, we’re better off if we keep our heads down, don’t draw attention, and recall Three Felonies a Day. That’s how many federal crimes the average person commits every day. Without, of course, knowing it. Your freedom is protected by the local prosecutor’s work schedule. And if they want you, they can get something on your kid and his family so that you plead.
It seems that two VA employees who knew what was happening refrained from coming forward because they didn’t want to talk to republicans. The lesser evil was a lot of dead veterans. Point is, nothing will happen to these people. They’ll use the federal defense (We’re federal employees and there’s not a G.D. thing you can do. So screw you.)
So, medicine and technology have made things better in a lot of ways. But that’s not all there is to our situation.
K-E,
Yes, my guess is that you *are* in the minority. Head over to some alt-right sites and you won’t find much in the way of calm, rational discussion. Everything is feral.
I am from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Traditionally a very conservative venue but growing more moderate as our well educated children return and welcome progressive policies. My conservative friends are distraught over Trump’s victory here….but we absolutely detest Hillary Clinton. We voted for Cruz. It is a moral dilemma. We are faced with the choice, at this point, of a communist, a criminal and an $ssh@ole. We will vote for Trump before we will vote for Hillary. Staying home is a vote for Hillary.
“The Mussolini reference, by the way, is not to Trump’s policies, but to the devotion of his followers.”
Oh for christ’s sake! Mussolini! Hitler, tyrant etc!
The torment of having lost your country to, on the one hand, a Muslim, Kenyan, mullato, socialist, on the down low, fundamental transformationist (read demolitionist), and on the other, to upwards of 50 million foreign invaders — aliens without any concept of American political philosophy (and not likely to get one in American public schools) does not meet any requirements for the epithet racist… or fascist. Call us nationalists, nativists, old fashioned concerned citizens, traditionalists, troubled Christians, unapologetic cis-heteros.
All across the West tyrants, Hitlers, Mussolinis, and fascists bud like springtime peonies. Marine Le Pen of France, Geert Wilders of the Netherlands, Nigel Farage of the UK, Mr Orban of Hungary, The Pegida movement (black and brown shirts —no doubt), the PiS Party NAZIs of Poland, the AfD Party NAZIs of Germany. Hitlers and NAZIs everywhere — oh my!
It is uncontestable. Those who will not kowtow, or, minimally, stay quiet, will be smeared and branded — as a matter of knee jerk praxis — Hitler, NAZI, tyrant, fascist, far right, racist, phobe, and bigot. This goes for all – no matter the rank, no matter political opposition. Recall Gordon Brown’s (Labour Man) lustrous moment and Gillian Duffy (the “bigoted woman” – for questioning his government’s immigration policy) each exemplifying the new class structure — the New Aristo and the New Villein. That moment ought haunt the memory of every citizen when they hear a speech, entertain a promise, suffer a debate… or vote — THEY are you betters.
Daniel Hannan mines the Gordon/Duffy event for the single worst aspect of it all — the ugliest feature of the Left. He concludes it is the belief that opposing views are considered morally wrong, rather than merely intellectually mistaken. In this Mr Hannan has not got it fully right. The ugliest feature of the Left is that it has not, would not, could not, give consideration to questions dense with moral implications (abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, Leftist mass murder/crimes against humanity, gulags). All that concerns the Left is historical determinism leading to Marxist conceit. Only opposition to that is criminal. To make it better understood why it is a crime, they appropriate the lexicon of the God-fearing but not the Commandments. Their’s is a theocracy without the Theos. And globalists, Leftists, and gnostics cannot easily be distinguished — one from the other. They are all a tangle.
And why anyone opposed to Trump and his cohort — even vehemently opposed — would stoop to Leftist polemic prose is beyond me. Unless I relent – and admit that a good portion of “conservatives” and GOP enablers have far more in common with the LibProgLefties – than they themselves will admit to – and have not the fear and loathing of them that the low brow bigots, racists, sexists, phobes, mini-Adolfs, mini-Duce’s have.
BHO is outwardly a socialist, inwardly a cultural Marxist, always an inveterate liar, a low down closet Uranian, a sub-rosa-muslim, a Kenyan/African/ alien president advocating and implementing a fundamental transformation of the nation (diametrically opposed to the founding charters) enacting policies that have damaged American international credibility (already greatly damaged) subverted nationhood, undermined the social contract, instigated racial disharmony, surrendered sovereignty, and is an all around asshole (hat tip to a commentor on these pages). And his cohort are much the same in actuality or affinity.
And you all are afraid of Trump and his cohort? Heaven help us because “conservatives” won’t.
QED
Russia in 1917, not 1017.
Trump:
“Discontent is abroad in the land, and politicians who are smart will tap into it if they can.”
There’s a tried and true method for that.
Discontent is the wellspring for activists. And not just Left activists and Left-mimicking alt-Right activists.
Moderate-friendly counter-Left activists rely on discontent, too. My team wouldn’t have had the stuff to win with without discontent. The necessary condition for constructing a preferred social cultural/political-scale solution is a social cultural/political-scale problem that’s sufficiently compelling to destroy.
Defining the problem frames the solution. When the opposing team is activist, “tapping into [the discontent]” is not enough. The task is methodically harvesting it, manufacturing and packaging it, and selling the product. The Narrative contest for the zeitgeist, which conservatives mostly concede, is a big part of the process.
Conservatives have cultivated the discontent with justification. But conservatives, and therefore the GOP, neglected to set up the activist machinery for the rest of the process, which left them vulnerable to a usurper supported by activists prepared and eager to make more of the discontent than just tap into it.
Oops. Fix:
TrumpNeo:“Discontent is abroad in the land, and politicians who are smart will tap into it if they can.”
Oh dear. Poor souls, who live in more luxury than your grandparents could ever imagine; who live with more freedom than any individuals have ever experienced, have to turn to demagogue because the elected politicians just don’ live up to your expectations. Which demagogue do you want to elect? is it the one who has been on public display for months; or is it someone else in his skin? We are told that the real Trump is in there somewhere.
So, let me ask this. Has John Kasich lied about what he intended to do? Are the claims that he makes about his public record which a reasonable person would say is in synch with conservatism at nearly every point, not accurate? In what way?’
Has Cruz not been the reformer that he claims to be? Is that why most of the Senate believe he is an outsider? Where has he deviated from conservative principles?
The race has now narrowed to a few candidates; three of them have public records that are open to scrutiny. One of them does not. Does it really make sense to entrust our future to someone whose public persona is deliberately obscured behind a veil of lawsuits, and threatened law suits?
If you cannot answer those questions, why would you turn to a man like Trump. And if you don’t recognize the type of man he is, then there is no point in further discussion.
Oldflyer, I appreciate your wisdom.
SiliconRex, more than a few have noted Sir Donald’s love of power. As Ace put it, Trump is an “authoritarian, with fascist tendencies.” Seems to fit pretty well.
K-E:
I don’t think that anyone on this site is accusing you of being “poor, ignorant, or angry.”
But why wouldn’t any of your “grievances” lead you to support someone like say, Ted Cruz instead of Trump?
For instance, your grievance #1 states that you are tired of having been “duped too many times by the GOP candidates who tell me one thing and then do another once they get in office.” Trump has already contradicted all of his previous statements on practically anything you can name. As far as I can see, he has never adhered to any consistent core beliefs in his entire life. What makes you think that you won’t be “duped” by Trump?
Cruz on the other hand has been totally consistent in his beliefs since he memorized the constitution as a high school student. You mentioned Walker, who has shown more consistency and courage in his life than Trump could ever claim.
If you are being duped by anyone K-E, it’s Donald Trump.
Oldflyer,
Trump has a public record. The msm is waiting to unleash a 24/7 assault. They are keeping their powder dry until after July.
K-E,
I get it. I think millions of us who fear what we believe is the danger of Trump get. You come across as totally sincere and as coming to your position after a great deal of thought. You and I differ on what is the best solution.
K-E,
You are not in the minority, trust me. There are many attempting to marginalize those that support Trump with their “high minded” comments, and pseudo intellectual analysis of anything that is not “movement conservative”. Their subtle comments sprinkled with terms like “racism”, “vengeance, and “ignorance” to describe those who do not share their view demonstrate that they may have gone so far “right” that they now speak and act as judgmental as the “left”!
After the Michigan primary, CNN did an exit poll (http://www.cnn.com/election/primaries/polls/mi/Rep).
It’s nothing too fancy, but it does provide some data to check when people go a little too far in their simplification of the Trump voter.
That’s definitely not to say that I don’t like hearing the news from people who’ve knocked on doors. I just don’t like to hear the line that Trump voters are dumb, old, poor and white. There’s more to it than that.
By the way, I’ve always set the bar low for judging politicians. I hated Nixon because I hated the way he manipulated the politics of the war in Vietnam. After that, I had no strong feelings for any politicians at any level. Well, I loathe Obama, but it’s not the kind of feeling I’d have for a real human being.
Now we have three candidates I can barely even stand thinking about (Clinton, Sanders, Trump). I don’t know whether that has any historical significance; but at a personal level, it means I can sympathize with Trump’s supporters, and at the same time despise Trump.
I look forward to reading Neo’s upcoming piece on the alt-right, but so far I’m still skeptical that the alt-right has much influence on the vast majority of Trump voters. As far as I can tell these are two separate but related phenomena. Of course, I could be wrong. So far, I’m going by my own limited experience and what I’ve heard from people who’ve knocked on doors.
Too much rambling. Sorry. Time to watch some basketball. Should probably delete this. Maybe you know the feeling. Most dispiriting election I’ve seen.
OM,
The love of power is not the preserve of Trump alone. It is evident in most all office holders, as most all are of a routine human nature — exhibiting distrust of those that wield it and a desire for it when they haven’t it. And I hardly think Ace so perspicacious as to know positively what Trump is.
What had been made of… oh… let’s say candidate BHO? He, with pants creases and dulcet tones, came off as uniter, post racialist, Christian, cis-hetero, cultured, well read, of almost impeccable demeanor, mainstream, articulate, bright, clean, a nice-looking guy and a messiah to boot. Turned out to be an asshole. Perhaps the asshole will turn out to be an American.
‘You and I differ on what is the best solution.’
My solution is to vote for the candidate most likely to protect my freedom and the freedom of my children.
I guess I’m a one issue voter.
‘Perhaps the asshole will turn out to be an American.’
Sure but I’ll vote for the best odds. Always a good idea.
“Yes, my guess is that you *are* in the minority. Head over to some alt-right sites and you won’t find much in the way of calm, rational discussion. Everything is feral.”
You are talking about online. Off-line many more people. You do realize that people probably 35 or 40 and older do not like to air their views publicly online? That is what I’m talking about. All the people I know so far, personally, who like and would vote for Trump? None of them would comment on blogs like this or news sites.
I am an unusual person in that regard because I am not in college and have the time to lurk around the internet. Most who have the time to post all over the place are not your typical voter or thinking conservative.
So you aren’t getting the full picture. I have several close friends and family members who are none of your description of the ‘average’ Trump voter. They are not angry nor ignorant. I am trying to tell you there are many many more of those than the ignorant.
Cruz was my number 2 choice until he went televangelist. Sorry, but true.
K-E,
Cruz has been my 1st choice since last October. I am an agnostic, “televangelist” Cruz does not bother me. The man has a faith that I do not share, but I would not lay sleepless at night worrying over a President Cruz launching an inquisition and burning heretics.
‘I am an agnostic, “televangelist” Cruz does not bother me.’
Well, I don’t believe in God in any sense, but even I know that Cruz knows that an inquisition and the burning of heretics is unconstitutional. (He is self limiting. Do you understand that?)
Trump on the other hand (religious or not) is a jerk and for that reason is NOT self limiting.
To put it simply, which candidate do you most trust to protect the rights of those who disagree with him?
Richard Aubrey Says:
March 12th, 2016 at 7:14 pm
Oldflyer. I had a buddy in high school who thought communism was the bomb because look where Russia was in 1017, and where it was back then (1962).
&&&&&&
The ASTOUNDING wealth transfer that was Lend Lease has been edited out of public awareness.
It was EPIC.
MUCH bigger than the Marshall Plan.
The USSR of 1962 was STILL running on American WWII trucks ( Studebakers ) drilling rigs ( Baker-Hughes ) Machine tools ( their whole industry ) oil refineries ( you’d be astounded )
Their Mig 15 of the Korean war used a British licensed – state of the art – turbine engine.
Their atomic piles for plutonium were IDENTICAL copies of ours at Hanford. We gave them the blue prints, and example materials ( graphite, control rods — enough to start their own bomb program — FDR’s buddy signed the OK for this treason. )
( Harry Hopkins — stealth Communist — and traitor. )
The TU-4 is an IDENTICAL copy of our B-29 — to include it’s flaws, too. Stalin built more B-29 than we did. One still sits on static display in Russia — at the center point of honor.
Trump can’t win with a split GOP.
Which is now an obvious ‘lock’ to happen.
Even Scott Adams has backed down from his giddiness.
The Press is in control of this story arc — and is puffing Trump up to cut him low.
It’s manipulation straight out of the film “John Doe” — amazing, really.
Steve D,
Yes, I know that. The primary reason I support Cruz is because in his bones, he cherishes and understands the founding documents. He understands the Constitution was intended to box in DC and limit its roll in the daily lives of we the people. Most importantly, he knows the 9th and 10th are there to protect the states and the people from the over reach of DC. Over 200 plus years the federal courts have failed the Constitution. Cruz would begin to cleanse the courts.
Trump has below zero understanding of the founding and could give a damn. The donald in his arrogance does not need a stinking Constitution. He reminds me of “folk” from Hawaii that likewise disdains the rule of law.
blert,
Trump from the beginning was the decoy.
I agree Parker. There is no question that of all the original candidates Cruz is the best. No one else comes close. My question was not directed at you but,
‘9th and 10th are there to protect the states and the people from the over reach of DC.’
I wonder who will protect me from my state government then? I’d rather have the Articles of Confederation than the Constitution. Freedom is paramount. Cruz is a stopgap and that’s it. We will not be voting ourselves out of this mess.
Trump is an effect, not a cause. What was the cause of Trump?
What came after Reagan? Who will come after Cruz? Unless we start thinking beyond a single election cycle, it’s game over.
Backers of Trump refuse to see that a man without integrity cannot be relied upon. Backers of Rubio and Kasich refuse to see that a man that can be bought, cannot be relied upon. Backers of Cruz refuse to see that trying to reform the mafia from within is an effort doomed to failure.
“A house divided against itself cannot stand”. A. Lincoln
For all my adult life I’ve been hearing leftists hurl fascist insults at republicans, now I am seeing the GOPe do the same thing.
We have had Biden say republicans want to bring back slavery, and now I’m hearing that Trump is lowering the discourse.
I am reading right leaning sites and hearing Cruz blaming the rape victim (Trump) for dressing provocatively (his rhetoric).
I keep wanting to turn away from Trump but all of this left-like reaction just keeps pushing me back into his corner. It’s really pathetic coming back to this site and and reading Allah Pundit on Hot keep sounding like little whiners.
Because guess what – a president Trump won’t be nearly destructive as Obama. The “magical negro” patina from the press, the left, and congress will be gone no matter who is elected. So vote for Hillary or stay home. But for God’s sake quit the pathetic parsing of every action, word and so on about Trump. Neither he nor Hillary will be the end of the world. Either way the left wing bearicratic engine will grind on, taking away the republic a little at a time. It’s already in the baking and can’t be stopped.
But what you have to decide is if you want to align to PC culture. The government is too big to change, the culture will follow who leads it. You want to go Hillary PC or Trump outrageousness? I know which one I’ll pick.
Don’t waste your breath, Whatever… you’re about to get called a raaaacist in 3…2…1 for daring to refer to Obama as “Magical Negro” — which of course is exactly what he is in the talismanic sense to a whole load of folks.
But the ‘Adults’ in this particular echo chamber, whilst bemoaning PC in some of its manifestations, aren’t willing to go full æ£å (that would be the Confucian doctrine of the Rectification of Names) on the world we inhabit. So there are vast areas of thought and debate closed to them, and similarly many things extant and afoot in this world today which they lack the ability to even describe accurately.
As for the compulsive parsing of texts and production of commentaries… sometimes it’s an acquired faculty, and sometimes there’s been more than a bit of evolutionary pressure in that direction.
What’s causing all this botheration is that there are many people all over West who most assuredly have NOT been allowed to have their say these 30+ years. We have sat back while the Clerisy and Financial and Political Elites did their things — and the results have not been pretty.
Now it’s time for some demagoguery and toilet flushing and settling of scores. All very unpleasant, no doubt, but ’twere best done quickly and sooner rather than later. It’s already very doubtful whether civil war can be avoided. Next time around, there won’t be any neat geographical divisions: it’s going to look like the first weeks of the Spanish Civil War – Read your Beevor for just how unpleasant that was.
In fact would be a nice breath of fresh air if instead of this obsessive silliness about Trump being another Hitler, someone took a good look at Primo de Rivera.
As for the Neo bee under bonnet about some alt right types supporting Trump, well it should be obvious that the aim of all who want to avoid re-runs should be to lance the boil of popular discontent before it becomes unalloyed malcontent.
Oh wait, I’m a mindless Trumpbot, I couldn’t possibly know any of this shit. I’ll go eat some roadkill for dinner.
In terms of regaining the republic, consider a lousy metaphor:
A submarine heading for crush depth. You can do the usual, or you can do the emergency. The usual will take care of things…presuming you don’t die first.
Does the emergency cost more? As a landlubber, I wouldn’t know. But I also wouldn’t be surprised to find that this or that framistan for emergency use only is good for only one use and the boat is now unserviceable until they get a new framistan. I may be wrong as to submarines, but the point is that many of Trump’s supporters think that even Cruz’s severe and thoughtful conservatism needs more patience and time than we have left. So it’s emergency blow and deal with the details once we surface.
We all have our particular betes noires–my French is a long time gone and I don’t do diacritical marks–and it would be a mistake to insist that Trump supporters all have the same views–or IQ shortages.
The charges of racism are always leveled at conservatives whether anything they say has any relevance to the question or not. OTOH, Trump’s crushing of PC makes some people feel free to talk about what Colin Flaherty discusses in depth–the epidemic of black assaults on whites and the collusion of the media and law enforcement to cover it up.
Some are concerned that the government’s multiple layers of purposeful action leaving Kate Steinle dead–she’s not the only one–have not been fixed. Indeed, the government insists they’ll keep it up.
The VA’s scandal gets worse by the day but the response is….We’re federal employees and so there’s not a G.D. thing you can do about it, so screw you.
With war on the horizon, due in part to Obama’s determination to broadcast weakness and indecision, people in the service, or who have friends or family in the service, or who have been in the service, see a deliberate weakening of our military forces which means war is more likely and the casualties while we fix Obama’s plans will be horrid and unnecessary. See “Task Force Smith” for an example.
Lots of people have various issues and to insist they are stupid because they don’t think addressing these issues in the usual fashion will work requires demonstrating that addressing these issues in the usual fashion both will work and has worked. Jump right in.
I just read this piece from a Powerline link:
http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2016/03/timeless-essays-the-most-interesting-business-man-in-the-world-peter-drucker.html
It is a powerful discussion of the role of religion (or at least religious morality) and how it is necessary to balance freedom and our secular government. The constitution is a framework, but we have to fill in the holes to make a good society of people who find satisfaction and happiness in their accomplishments.
What we have now is an elite who doesn’t value these and a government that takes away our freedom to accomplish things for ourselves. Returning more power to state and local levels gives us a better chance, but it is also not sufficient. We really need a leader who values parents who coach their kids’ sports teams, women who make covered dishes for the Christmas dinners their church provides for the poor and lonely, ordinary people who help those who just suffered a house fire, people who volunteer to build Habitat For Humanity houses for vets that need ramps and wider doorways to accomodate their wheelchairs. Master Gardners groups who show people how to plant their first vegetable garden.
We overlook that one of our founders started to first public (but not government) library in America. A great great uncle of mine helped establish the local school districts in my area. A librarian in my hometown started to first bookmobiles to take books to the rural people who didn’t have cars to take them to the town libraries. We overlook the groups that took supplies to the people after Katrina, the Norman Borlaugs who made it possible for poor countries to feed themselves, the Homer Hickams who worked as anonymous engineers for NASA.
We can rant about Common Core, but what do we do to see that kids get a fuller view of America? How hard would it be to set up some libraries at local churches and organizations or organize some book clubs for kids? We have far more power than we think, but as the saying goes: Use It Or Lose It.
We need a president who values American efforts and ingenuities, not just money. We don’t need a president who disdains everyone without gold faucets and cons them out of their money.
Some many Trumpists now vilify George Bush, but despite his all-too-human mistakes, he really did value Americans. Romney also is hated for being a loser, but he has done many small things to help others because of his faith and values. Are we really ready to throw these characteristics out the window because we prefer some ignorant jerk who tries to get votes by calling names and will lose our allies, friends, and worldwide respect. America is not valued by the international elite, but there are many who remember getting candy dropped to them during the Berlin Airlift. I remember a photo I saw in Bayeaux of a young French girl appliqueing an American flag as she sat on her doorstep. Thi was after D Day and there were Ameica soldiers looking on. I remember right after the tsunami hearing the educated young people of India gathering supplies for the needy because they saw how Americans did this. Ther was a WaPo story this week about an Indian who had studied and worked in the US who developed a devise to diagnose about 30 dieases in abou 15 minutes thanks to our genome sequence libraries and our internet. He now has about a thousand clinics in New Delhi serving poor and isolated communities. His device made from existing tablets cost about $600, but the Americans he worked with ignored him and his idea. Have too many Americans become too rich to see the world as it is? The feminists, BLMers, transgenders etc should be going to bed every night with a prayer on their lips.
If you hate PC, you should be telling them this.
JurassiCon Rex Says at 8:03 pm
“All that concerns the Left is historical determinism leading to Marxist conceit. Only opposition to that is criminal. To make it better understood why it is a crime, they appropriate the lexicon of the God-fearing but not the Commandments. Their’s is a theocracy without the Theos.”
Well stated.
The hysteria on the right over Trump is getting out of hand. We need to keep in mind who is our true enemy. I much prefer Cruz but I understand why other people might prefer Trump and respect their choice.
Was out last night to dinner with my brother and sister in law, for her birthday, so a bit late to this discussion. However I wanted to bring up a factoid that shocked the hell out of me. My wife is a moderate who often expresses a “pox on both of their houses”, her sister (my sister in law) has a similar mind set, and maybe is just slightly left of center. My brother in law is a moderate black. The subject of the election came up and all three vehemently stated that if it came down to Clinton vs. Trump, they would all vote Trump…..I’ve never been so shocked at anything these three people have ever said.
Three people out of millions here in Connecticut and the US, so statistically meaningless, but caused me great pause.
K-E – I’m with you half-way about detailed proposals. We over-emphasize them in campaigns. Presidents can’t control the legislation they receive. Each of the parties has two or three approaches on any issue, and Congress will produce bills that come out of a compromise between them. That’s what a president gets.
But Trump seems to lack both an overriding ideology and a command of detail. There’s neither the precision of policy knowledge nor the broad consistency of a well-considered belief system. His slogan, in fact, reflects that he can’t be trusted – he makes deals. He’s changed positions in the middle of a debate, more than once. You can’t complain about politicians who say one thing and do another while supporting a candidate who says five different things at once.
You want someone who will do what he says. What does he say on immigration? That he’s changing, that everything is negotiable, that he himself brings in foreign workers. What does he say on national defense? That he no longer believes what he said yesterday. What does he believe about the courts? I don’t know. About trade? Different than he did before he ran. About abortion? Different than he did before he ran. About tax rates? Different than he did before he ran.
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The SOLE and only reason so many Democrat voters are considering Trump is because the Press has the wind at his back.
Hillary’s negatives are that BIG — even without the MSM to build them up.
Once Trump is the GOP nominee — ALL of this will change.
To see what even SOME negatives can do, go over to Scott Adam’s blog — and follow his story arc.
He’s gone from being a booster — to running AWAY — policy wise.
And that massive shift only took a couple of sound bites from Donald Trump.
Trumpers: He can’t survive his legacy this Fall.
1) He’s ALREADY divisive to the GOP.
So much so that for every Democrat that is wavering, three Republicans are repulsed.
That’s the fact, Jack.
2) Many states are already in the bag for Hillary.
So, the GOP needs to hang on to every ‘Romney’ state AND pull Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, on board.
3) Trump has all of Romney’s sins — times two.
So we can expect to see the 2012 ‘script’ pulled out, anew.
&&&&&&&
Back in 2912 the Press was essentially praising Romney as the rational, reasonable candidate.
Then it went full viper on him in the fall.
The way it works is that Super-PACs come up with the Gish Gallop — and then the MSM re-verbs the dish — endlessly.
Remember the absurd dog on the roof of the car bit ?
In the context of a Presidential campaign, that strange tale had no bearing whatsoever. Yet, we all remember it.
That’s the MSM effect.
A vote for Trump is a vote for Hillary.
The obvious candidate that the MSM loathes is Ted Cruz.
They can’t FIND any dirt on him.
Hence, the MSM black out.
Trump gets free air time out the ears — then Rubio — then Kasich.
Ted Cruz — is a Soviet non-person — even though he’s a strong #2 in the polls.
If you’re furious about the state of the nation — back the fellow that can survive the Fall campaign — Ted Cruz.
Donald Trump won’t.
You won’t even recognize him after the MSM gets through with his image.
Nick:
Not to quibble, but no, I don’t want someone for President who will “do what he says.” I want someone who will faithfully execute the laws of this nation, as those laws are set forth by the people, through their elected representatives. Quaint notion, that.
You can say that I’m a dreamer,
But I’m not the only one.
Everybodys analyzing all the Trump supporters trying to figure out why they’re so unconventional. Maybe its because conventional wisdom wants everyone to believe a Ted Cruz or a Marco Rubio has a chance of winning the general election through their past record, policy speeches and superior communication skills.
If I had to guess, this is the most common thread among Trump supporters. They see the writing on the wall. That feeling in the gut that you’re not going to win the presidency
by touting conservative credentials farther to the right than Mitt Romney’s. I share that feeling with them.
So you find a risky guy that loves to take risk and you roll the dice. We’re talking a man that that may do a power point display on stage of all Hillary’s top secret emails. He’s so unpredictable he may bring all of Bill Clintons women victims up on stage to talk about their ordeals with Bill and Hillary and do it with press coverage that is just uncanny for a republican politician.
He’s weird. He’s got a huge ego. He’ll probably do some stupid things if he’s President. But I think he cares about his country and is tired of seeing it “transformed”. And if he’s the nominee, i’m willing to roll those dice.
“You won’t even recognize him (Trump) after the MSM gets through with his image.”
blert
And you think Ted Cruz won’t be made into an uncaring bible thumping hayseed that can’t get 40% of the vote? By what logic?
They would have by now.
The DEAD give away…
Radio silence.
No MATERIAL to work with.
Sorry.
Being a Christian only gets you so far.
Ted Cruz understands that raging against Christianity only infuriates the voters.
JFK answered the ‘Catholic’ angle.
He was an American first.
Not a papist.
Which is a slur, my fellow.
Describing the anti-Trump voter.
Nice!
Geez!
An awful lot of rhetoric. Those who oppose Trump were accused by one respondent of being pseudo-intellectuals. What a hoot.
There is nothing esoteric about the choices here. It is pretty damn basic in fact. The sad fact is that people generally justify turning to Trump because their elected representatives don’t do what they say they will do; so their answer is to put their trust in a man who has publicly been all over the place on basic issues.
Maybe the answer to my question was obscured in all of the minutia ; but, the question remains. Just because a person is unhappy with the current situation, is it wise to turn to a man who has personally stated, (paraphrasing) “what you see in the debates and primaries is not the man who will govern”? This assertion was echoed by no less than Dr Ben Carson who in effect said there are two Trumps, and only the chosen few get to see the real one. Well, no thanks. I want to see the man who will lead the country; not some cardboard cutout used for electioneering purposes. I want a man, or a woman, who has a public record that is open to scrutiny. Those kinds of people are available. In my opinion, supporting Trump out of anger or frustration is akin to throwing a tantrum. Opinions obviously differ.
Oldflyer, you have applied Occam’s Razor to critique Trumpophilic logic. I’m not a intellectual or even a pseudointellectual but I work with a few PhDs, MDs, and PEs.
Geoffrey Britain Says:
Backers of Cruz refuse to see that trying to reform the mafia from within is an effort doomed to failure.
The mafia’s entire purpose is to be corrupt, whereas Congress was designed for a legitimate purpose but has become corrupt instead.
Congress is more like a corrupt police force, and Cruz is internal affairs. Just like IA, he’s hated by everyone who is about to be exposed or have their corrupt system overturned.
Corrupt police forces have been cleaned up in America before and they will be in the future. This isn’t impossible.
Whatever Says:
I am reading right leaning sites and hearing Cruz blaming the rape victim (Trump) for dressing provocatively (his rhetoric).
Cruz first blamed BLM, then noted that Trump’s rhetoric contributed to the escalation of violence. Trump supporters then twisted that into Cruz shredding the 1st amendment or “blaming the victim.”
Please explain to me how either points #1 or #2 are incorrect.
Trump doesn’t get to inflame the situation then hide behind the 1st amendment when it suits him.
Richard Aubrey Says:
…but the point is that many of Trump’s supporters think that even Cruz’s severe and thoughtful conservatism needs more patience and time than we have left.
You’re making the “slide toward socialism” argument in reverse: Democrat = fast, GOPe = slower.
The problem is, I don’t think anybody, not even Trump’s supporters mistake him for a Constitutionalist. His direction will be very different than that of Cruz.
So it’s not just a question of how fast we get there. The destination will be different.
At Powerline, spurred by what he describes as “[o]ne of the more head-scratching phenomena of this election is the independent voters in open primary states who tell journalists and pollsters that they are undecided between Trump and Sanders”, Steven Hayward takes to quoting Harry Jaffa (who in turn was examining Martin Diamond’s views) in an attempt at gaining insight into the shared [untethered] political characteristics of these Sanders and Trump supporters, while acknowledging the differences the Sanders’ Trump’ differences will likely make: i.e. Sanders’ soupy wish fulfillments on the one hand and Trump’s national greatness themes on the other.
Surely though, the development of a supreme [Historical] superstition in the name of the rejection of all superstition — be it theretofore theological or natural — is one of the oddest, most risible of the pretended “successes” in human intellectual history. And yet socialism though burdened with hideous failure after hideous failure lives on, as we can see. People seem to carry what stupidities they like, come what may.
SteveH says “So you find a risky guy that loves to take risk and you roll the dice.”
Seems to me the dice-roller, the “You” in Steve’s sentence, is the one taking the risk.
Risk-taking is a toss of the dice. Lovers of risk will crash and burn, maybe the first time, maybe not until the fifteenth, but it will happen. It’s called shooting craps, for a reason. Taking a risk is not a free lunch.
Risk can be distributed or shared, but not reduced. Ever.
The Donald is not a risk-taker. He is and always has been a risk-sharer. When one of his endeavors fails, as several have done, a lot share in the failure.
I will issue a 60% retraction of my former position:
Poor describes a minority of Trump’s supporters. It explains marginal gains in poorer areas of the country, but not the majority of support.
Ignorant is subjective. It may define anywhere from a minority to a majority, depending on why people vote for Trump. For example, if a supporter thinks Trump has a solid record on most issues without wavering, that person is ignorant.
I will stress that this doesn’t mean “stupid,” just that the person is unaware of certain facts.
Trump has flip-flopped on many issues during the cycle. That is an objective FACT.
Vengeful probably describes the vast majority, but its intensity varies among individuals. Some people may support him with very little anger, but I think everyone has *a little.*
———————————————————————————————-
Still, this was unsatisfying because it didn’t apply to K-E, nor I would assume to the offline (i.e. real life) Trump supporters he described.
I think SteveH, physicsguy, and Oldflyer explain it best: Trump voters only see a monolithic establishment (a pox on both your houses). Anyone remotely associated with D.C. is automatically untrustworthy, and that explains why they won’t vote for Cruz.
The ridiculous conspiracy theories like birtherism and Goldman-Sachs, one-world-government Jewish control of him through his wife were necessary to justify his disqualification, since it was difficult to say that he was part of the establishment (though some of them are still trying to sell that point).
The vote for Trump is by default. The rationalizations serve to bolster this pre-made decision.
P.S. I will add that this theory agrees with what I’ve noticed about Trump supporters online: they don’t seem to be able to tell who is a real conservative or not.
I don’t think many of them have spent any effort thinking about what conservatism actually means.
Hence the automatic disdain for it.
The Democrats are going to do their best to make this the face of the GOP: Man at Trump rally tells protesters to ‘go to f—ing Auschwitz’
Just to clarify, K-E is a she! 😀
I agree with many of the points made by Tom Nichols, who argues that the P.C. Police are most responsible for the rise of Donald Trump. That too many people have become sick and tired of being told not only what should be considered acceptable or normal, but that they must either do everything in their power to accommodate the new normal, or suffer the wrath of whatever SJW mobs or cyber-mobs (not to mention federal or state agencies that apparently answer to no one) target them. Many feel that in him they have found at last a voice, a voice that many other hopefuls have been too intimidated to raise.
Although trumpsters are not monolithic, they do an excellent job of describing themselves, in all their glorious factions.
>>I don’t think many of them have spent any effort thinking about what conservatism actually means.
They sound like Leftists.
@Ann: As the DNC completely ignores the thuggery of the protesters and how Sanders never dismissed their actions.
K-E Says:
Just to clarify, K-E is a she!
Apologies. I should’ve used the neutral/non-gender-binarying “Xe.”
OlderandWheezier Says:
I agree with many of the points made by Tom Nichols, who argues that the P.C. Police are most responsible for the rise of Donald Trump.
I agree that the *feeling* is there, the opposition to PC, but it’s raw and incoherent.
The intellectual opposite of PC is free speech, yet Trump threatens to sue critics and Trump supporters online use many of the same tactics as SJWs to silence opposition. Go over to Instapundit sometime and any article about Trump will have half the comments “reported for abuse:” always the ones that are even a *tiny* bit critical of Trump.
This isn’t some principled position many of them have, it’s payback (there we go again with the vengeance thing).
In the film “Meet John Doe” the public is being played.
Today, the Trumpsters are being played.
That Capra classic ought to be watched one more time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4J0dCKZcJI
Somehow, I suspect that Meet John Doe was the subliminal inspiration for Donald Trump’s original launch.
&&
I may have to eat my words, Hillary is so repugnant to my known Democrats that they may out “sit out” the election compared to the GOP.
That logic I reason was the reason for Bill Clinton’s and Donald Trump’s way back conversation.
Bill reasoned that he needed to send a blast wave through the GOP to up end the ‘playing field.’
What Bill did not anticipate is that Trump would suffer ‘mission creep.’
What started out as a stab-in-the-back campaign has morphed into a reformation of BOTH political parties.
Hillary Rodham-Clinton-Goldman-Sachs is inducing both the Irish and the Jews to flee the Democrat party… for at least one election.
&&&
The President has assured the nation that he’s not responsible for the rise of Donald Trump.
Which can only mean that Organizing for America funding is behind every machination to advance Trump.
When I was a kid our neighborhood was invaded by these red ants that built big mounds. They could deliver a painful sting and had a collective temper. We discovered that if you disturbed the nest/mound by poking it and dropping big stones on top the ants would get all riled up and after a few days of repeated disturbances, they would just move the whole nest fifty to a hundred feet away. No single ant had a clue what was going on or the why behind the move, but collectively they would take action in response to an external set of circumstances.
People are much more aware than ants, but….I would venture a great many voters are just pissed but haven’t much of a clue as to the causes of their grief beyond the very obvious up front and visible.
On the Left people are upset that so many minorities lag behind whites. Higher unemployment. Higher rates of incarceration. Growing income inequality. Lower achievement…whatever. Since we’re all created equal the cause must be due to racism and the elite (who are mostly white) keep doing better.
Many whites especially blue collar workers/class have been getting hammered for decades and are tired of being told how racist they are and all about that white privilege which doesn’t seem to find them.
And the elites on the left and right seem to contrive selectively enforce laws to their benefit.
Who decided that the big banks should be bailed out. Their managers screw up and get paid even more money.
We have laws on immigration, many of them, and neither Bush nor Obama bothered to enforce them or so many loop holes have been created that the borders are next to open. I don’t need a PhD to tell that a liberal academic study that concludes that all the immigration from down South has not impacted wage levels here in the US is bullshit and biased.
Public unions have taken control of government in many places and levels and run the system to ensure their salaries always go up and their pensions are generous.
Whether we grope to a left or right move will not be a rational decision. Most people are going to vote for anyone promising a move because where we are now is not working for growing numbers.
Good points, Matt.
I know what a conservative is. I am one. And it takes humble reflection to admit your political ideology is not going to win in todays America. We’re 4 years farther along in transformation since Romney got his ass kicked. Helloooow all you “educated” people! Geez
It takes humble reflection to know that you aren’t a mind reader of your fellow citizen, and that you can’t see the future.
My position is, why not give conservatism a try before declaring it a failure? IMO, it hasn’t been seen in this country since Reagan.
You guys are so careful to find so many ways to inform Trump supporters that they are stupid racists — and then are seemingly surprised that they don’t immediately agree with you.
You are pikers. Us republicans have been called every name in the book for decades, by experts. Noted PhD’s have written tomes proving that we are stupid and unintelligent, so your feeble attempts are laughable week.
You think you are so clever debating whether Trump is Hitler or Mussolini. We’ve heard that in every political fight since 1950 or so — you think you are wickedly clever in finding an insulting term? We laugh at your patheticness.
Oldflyer, we’ve been concern trolled forever, and we know what’s up when somebody asks for “an intelligent description”. Just like the guy at BestBuy who stops you and says, “I want to ask you a simple question.” You know that he isn’t asking a question, he’s trying to mousetrap you into signing up for Dish TV.
We laugh in your general direction.
You guys are so careful to find so many ways to inform Trump supporters that they are stupid racists — and then are seemingly surprised that they don’t immediately agree with you.
You are pikers. Us republicans have been called every name in the book for decades, by experts. Noted PhD’s have written tomes proving that we are stupid and unintelligent, so your feeble attempts are laughable week.
You think you are so clever debating whether Trump is Hitler or Mussolini. We’ve heard that in every political fight since 1950 or so — you think you are wickedly clever in finding an insulting term? We laugh at your patheticness.
Oldflyer, we’ve been concern trolled forever, and we know what’s up when somebody asks for “an intelligent description”. Just like the guy at BestBuy who stops you and says, “I want to ask you a simple question.” You know that he isn’t asking a question, he’s trying to mousetrap you into signing up for Dish TV.
You guys are so transparent — and you think you have fooled up. We laugh in your general direction.
Good luck winning the election by yourselves, fred. You won’t have to worry about us weighing you down with our votes or holding you back.
I will also note that fred displays the typical personality of an online Trump supporter, supporting my theory:
vengeful, with a hint of persecution bordering on the paranoid. I don’t think anyone here brought up racism before fred, though it’s present in parts of the Trump movement.
If you read through the comments here, you will see a range of opinions. This doesn’t impress fred, who has lumped us all together. Finally, fred refers to “us Republicans,” as if the other people here weren’t Republicans too (I assume).
I guess fred isn’t a regular visitor, which is another aspect of Trumpism: interloping.
Neo,
New video from another angle proving Michelle Fields lied about the alleged assault:
https://youtu.be/6NoMPxomjiw
An update to your previous posts would be appreciated by me.
Matt__SE, I brought up racism and called out Kinch on another thread for using “magical negro” in the context of white solidarity. Guessing by his syntax, unusual word choice for a typical American, and British spelling, he is probably a Brit or from one of the old colonies like Hong Kong. He quoted Confucius above, with Chinese characters. He also addresses the other interlopers like Fred and Whatever as compatriots.
Trump seems to have brought out fellow travelers from interesting places and some with an openly destructive solution. Quote from Kinch above:
Now it’s time for some demagoguery and toilet flushing and settling of scores. All very unpleasant, no doubt, but ’twere best done quickly and sooner rather than later. It’s already very doubtful whether civil war can be avoided.
I’ve supported Ted Cruz, donated to him; I have doubts that he can win the cage match that the Left has in mind for the next administration. He’d make a superb Supreme Court justice.
You know who really supports Trump? MEN. All the American men who’ve been endlessly targeted with slander and abuse by the “social” “justice” wankers. And all the Americans who are sick of losing elections to the reds and pinkos when we back nice, civilized men. All of the Americans who are sick and tired of Pyrrhic defeats. Yes, defeats.
All of the Americans who are fed up with being the Left’s punching bags. Fed up with seeing our nation dismantled, invaded, and trashed by our internal enemies, while our team stands around and lobs words, essays, and tut-tuts.
Come on, folks, this isn’t complicated.
Furthermore, I think a lot of you are losing sight of the fact that shredding whichever of the R candidates wins will only help Shelob the Great get into the White House. For the life of me, I can’t see how Any of you can believe that ANYTHING Trump would do could be WORSE than what Hillary has in store. Seriously? Even if every criticism of DT is accurate, he’s still miles ahead of the Hag of Benghazi. Hell, at least he wants America to win!
Remember, please: the Left HATES America, and will deliberately work to destroy us. Please, remember, before it’s too late.
Physicsguy, you’re not alone: my brother and his Democrat wife are voting for Trump. A lot of folks are.
And what the polls show now will keep shifting: who thinks Hildabeast can maintain altitude when the public finally gets an eyeful of her? And an earful of that grating voice?
“Events, dear fellow, events.”
I don’t think Trump is a racist. I don’t think Trump is a fascist. I don’t think Trump supporters are racists or fascists or ignoramuses.
I think some of Trump’s positions are good – the wall, suspension of Muslim immigration, building up the military, taking care of veterans.
My reason for not supporting Trump is that he’s an asshole, and I hate assholes. And even though I’ll hold my nose and vote for him if he’s the nominee, I’ll still hate him. Because he’ll still be an asshole. And I hate assholes.
Richard Saunders:
As has been said for generations; if the political establishment ignores the major concerns of a large part of the citizenry, somebody will come along who will be taking those concerns seriously, and you may not like him.
And now….presenting Donald Trump.
Trump is not like Hitler. In addition, Trump is not going to win as Hitler did. The Nazis did not have a majority, but they had enough votes in the government, along with support from the military, and a large cadre of street fighters and other bad actors and finessed their way into power.
What happens if Trump…gets the majority of the votes?
My view of him is that he’s so flaky, jumping from one hot idea to the next, that he won’t be able to get much done. He’s used to employees hopping when he says something. And then they do it or report that it won’t work and so they don’t do it. Or they do do it and it doesn’t work and he fires them. He’ll probably have a stroke if he’s POTUS.
The Other Chuck:
Oh, Intrepid Virtue Signalling Caller Outer of Supposed Race Baiters, Greetings and Felicitations!
Google the Wikipedia entry for “Magical Negro”.
Sadly, you’ll never find out much more about me or my opinions, because your Gracious Host Neo has silently blocked my posts after my last one. I’m unlikely to bother attempting to circumvent her censorship in future. No point really. The Great Wheel of Dialectic grinds on regardless of the bleating in this closed shop, and similarly my wordy droppings are unlikely to warn anybody to get out of its way… if that’s even possible at this stage.
But consider, could it be possible that a regular garden variety Caucasian Trump Supporter (More a person who recognises that it would be most unfortunate if he didn’t win this election cycle than mindless booster.) might be quite widely-travelled, and somewhat more worldly than stereotypes you get in the media might suggest? Frankly-speaking, a person who hasn’t heard of the Rectification of Names, probably isn’t sufficiently inoculated against the post-modern cant of the times and isn’t qualified to have an opinion on anything more intellectual than the opening of a can of tomatoes.
As it so happens, I have lived a good part of my life in the Far East. I have no relationship to any other pro-Trump supporter in this thread.
Anyway, you go and wallow in your stereotypes, if it makes you feel better.
Pax Out.
I wonder if people would call Oskar Shindler a Nazi for working with them and owning a bomb factory?
and this among other things that wont wake up any eyes
#GrabGate Debunked – Michelle Fields Cries Wolf. NEW ANGLE PROVES SHES LYING!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NoMPxomjiw
as i said, all those cameras and no one caught the incident?
I’m just wondering where the people on this thread will be if a rapprochment between Cruz and Trump is affected. Could Cruz become Trump’s VP? Who will the people who think they’re so much smarter than others vote for? Hillary or Trump? Just remember, the left still has a heck of a long time to make the case for Republicans supporting Trump as racists. Maybe you just won’t tell your friends for whom you are voting or perhaps you’ll lie. Or perhaps you’ll vote for Hillary because only racists won’t. Or perhaps you’re just leftist trolls who would as soon see actual clasical liberals dead as look at them. That is, of course, the very defintion of a leftist.
These are exciting times. It appears the American people have decided to take back their government. We could be heading for a possible landslide victory in November. A victory that if parlayed correctly could signal the beginning of the end of the vicious left and their hate America first ideology.
Artfldgr:
Wonder if Trump’s seen the movie?
Beverly Says:
I can’t see how Any of you can believe that ANYTHING Trump would do could be WORSE than what Hillary has in store.
__________________________________________________
I can believe it, because I’ve seen it: Romney.
First off, once someone is elected they aren’t compared to their opponent in the race, for the most part. Their opponent lost, and fades away. The winner is compared to other winners, and their track records.
It may be true that Trump governs better than Hillary would have, but we’ll never know that for sure.
Romney won in uber-liberal Massachusetts and tried to be as conservative as he could be, I suppose, but he wasn’t allowed to be. Every time he tried to intervene, he was overridden by the legislature.
He became a scapegoat for the failed policies of MA liberals: all the successes were due to [someone not named], but all the failures were Romney’s. Being liberal MA, there were plenty of failures.
So HERE is how Trump could be worse: his tenure isn’t a success (even if it would’ve been better than Hillary), but all Republicans are blamed for it.
None of the credit, all of the blame.
And if he does anything to actually *deserve* the blame, so much the worse for the rest of us. And if he governs like a big-government liberal (or GOPe, for that matter) it will be all of the POLICIES of Hillary too.
I’ve already predicted that any reformer who is elected will be stymied by the establishment. I don’t think Trump will be able to handle that. He’ll either retreat inward or will start “making deals” with the establishment…and I don’t mean that in a good way.
VIDEO UNEARTHED=> Pastor Calls for Execution of Gays — Then Introduces Ted Cruz at Conference
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/03/video-reveals-pastor-calls-for-execution-of-gays-then-introduces-ted-cruz-on-stage/
and the kkk man that likes trump, now likes hillary (going back to his dem roots?)
anyway… lets see if the same treatment happens..
The Post-Constitutional Election, Pt. 11 — Donald Trump: The Left’s Worst Nightmare:
“Donald Trump’s presidential candidacy threatens the Left’s strangehold in this country more than any other movement in American politics in my memory, if not modern history.
That’s the simple reason thousands of Leftists mobilized in Chicago last week to shut down the democratic process — to seize the space inside and around a Trump political rally and transform it into a morass of menace, sirens, chaos, and mobs.
Ted Cruz, John Kasich, Marco Rubio, Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, Rachel Maddow, Jake Tapper, Megyn Kelly et al to the woeful contrary: Nothing, but nothing, Donald Trump has said from his podium about protestors disrupting his rallies (punch him in the face, get him out of here, beat the crap out of anyone that throws tomatoes at me, I’ll defend you in court — the works) drives the anti-USA agendas of these Leftist groups; nor did it inspire them to organize the mobs that “successfully” interupted the democratic process last week in Chicago.
So what is behind it?
It is Donald Trump’s political agenda that drove the Left to organize its Chicago assets to seize enough control of the streets and the auditorium to thwart peaceable assembly and disrupt free speech — constitutional rights both (which, by the way, “Constitution defender” Cruz, once again, is so quick to surrender).
The Left reviles Trump’s Wall. They revile his policy to deport illegal aliens. To halt Muslim immigration. To halt illegal immigration. To control legal immigration. Restore US sovereignty. Reverse globalizing trade policies, such as TPA and TPP. These sharp turns from our politics-as-usual-over—the-cliff is what drove the Left to the streets in Chicago. Leaders on the Right — Cruz, Kasich and Rubio — gave the Left cover by blaming Trump.
Below is a list of the groups and persons that helped organize or participated in the “protest” in Chicago, a city, I was surprised to find, that is nearly as Hispanic as it is black. Blacks comprise 32.9 percent of Chicago’s population. “According to the U.S. census,” the Chicago Tribune reports, “28.9 percent of Chicago’s population identify as Hispanic. About 21.4 percent are from Mexico.” More than one in five Chicagoans are from Mexico? No wonder there were Mexican flags flying over the anti-Trump throngs.”
Continues
She says she’s been told by Virginia State Police that they will provide additional security measures.
“I can’t even tell you how hard it is to deal with something like this. I feel like I’m very violated, at this point, and very threatened,” says Beaty.
She awoke Wednesday morning to find the Trump signs gone and her neat, white house spray painted with the words “revolution” and “can you see the new world through the tear gas.”
She says she would be less frightened if the incident stopped there, but the threats have continued.
“I get all these nut cases riding by here going, ‘Feel the Bern,’ ‘[Expletive] the Trump signs.’ I had one guy, yesterday, telling me I was going to die,” Beaty says.
The saddest part here is that most people are doing what the left does, and also saying that if you dont agree with them, then you have to be evil, vengeful, ignorant, etc.
yeah..
this country will get back to stuff when the supporters of the anti left cruz act more left and progressive every day and using the same tactics as the communists, and even pulling out adorno frankfurt school stuff for their own favor.
you guys WANT communism, you just want your progressive to win, not an overt open one you dont like..
on trumps side you have dem politicians trying to take a womans home away
on cruz side you have the man who helped create the crack epidemic, the hatred and distrust of blacks to the state multiplied, move weapons to iran, and tried to overthrow a soverign state secretly, was convicted and pardoned.
do you guys really not see the lack of parity here?
that i can go back to you arguing about banks being too big to fail and hating all that, and now siding with a man whose key team player is a person who was at the start of all that with the S&L bailouts?
which reminds me that they complain that trump had bankruptcies… which is fine as that happens a lot in business and it was mostly his money till he changed to more investment partners… but people who would try to use that, against others who have no businesses, and then ignore someone whose business cost the tax payers 1.3 billion… is insane..
then there is the idea that cause trump donated and worked with dems he must not be conservative, and as i said in anotehr post. that would eman that oskar schindler was a nazi, he had lunch with them, eat with that, built stuff for them… but he was not a nazi, was he?
the sign over buchenwald fits such people:
Jedem das Seine
you get what you deserve…
and sadder is that everyone wants an establishment person who is not being attacked by his friends in the etablishment, as his supporters claim Trump hijacked the election… which is interesting as he can only hijack it if its belongs to the establishment players and he was not establishment…
Matt_SE:
Have you forgotten what kind of a President Bill Clinton was:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3221539/posts?page=8#8
Maybe Hillary will be better
See if I can slip one more in before this ID/IP gets blocked too.
How did we get in two or three generations from Norman Rockwell to this fear and loathing of ordinary members of the Great Unwashed being allowed to have a say in the running of their country?
Obviously this is a rhetorical question, and whilst I could point out some factors, It’s Complicated.
But, leaving aside the why, pray consider that the sausage making (If you don’t get the allusion, then perhaps you’re not as widely read as some Trump Supporters) has always been a vile and subterranean business. Therefore it’s rather missing the point to hold one’s nose about Trump not coming across as in the polished tones of say a Tom Friedman or a Nicholas Kristof. And… Dear God, have we not had enough of such posturing idiots by now?
Oldflyer Says: Demagoguery seems to rule the day. I would love to hear first hand an intelligent description of the grievances that drive people to Trump rather than to others
no you dont…
Elliot Abrams – Cruz Team
While serving for Reagan, Abrams and retired U.S. Marine Corps officer Oliver North were integral players in the Iran-Contra affair. He is currently a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations as well as maintaining a CFR blog called “Pressure Points” about the U.S. foreign policy and human rights Abrams holds positions on the Committee for Peace and Security in the Gulf (CPSG), Center for Security Policy & National Secretary Advisory Council, Committee for a Free Lebanon, and the Project for the New American Century
and this one is funny
He also was the president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington in 1996.
you cant complain about hillary bs if you wont complain about elliot bs… same bs… both acting outside the constituation..
My grievance here is you cant clean up the state if you hire the people you should be cleanign up… ie. how does an establishment man violate the constitution, is found guilty of such damage to the nation, and then gets a job from a man who says he is going to help clean things up?
given his wife and this mans serving the CFR and what was done then and now is what the CFR says should be done, not the constitution, you let me know oldflyer how he is going to clean up what he hires, and doesnt fire?
see
Webb, Gary (1998). Dark Alliance: The CIA, the Contras, and the Crack Cocaine Explosion. Seven Stories Press. ISBN 1-888363-68-1.
“CIA did not inform Congress of all allegations or information it received indicating that Contra-related organizations or individuals were involved in drug trafficking,” the inspector general’s report found. “During the period in which the FY 1987 statutory prohibition was in effect, for example, no information has been found to indicate that CIA informed Congress of eight of the ten Contra-related individuals concerning whom CIA had received drug trafficking allegations or information.”
During investigation of the Iran-Contra Affair, Lawrence Walsh, the Independent Counsel tasked with investigating the case, prepared multiple felony counts against Abrams but never indicted him nstead, Abrams cooperated with Walsh and entered into a plea agreement wherein he pled guilty to two misdemeanors of withholding information from Congress – He was sentenced to a $50 fine, probation for two years, and 100 hours of community service. However, Abrams was pardoned by President George H. W. Bush, in December 1992 On February 5, 1997, the D.C. Court of Appeals publicly censured Abrams for giving false testimony on three occasions before congressional committees. Although a majority of the court voted to impose a public censure, three judges in the majority would have imposed a suspension of six months, and a fourth judge would have followed the recommendation of the Board on Professional Responsibility that Abrams be suspended for a year.
Why would crus hire such a person for a key role in his election if his election is about cleaning up washington?
oh… there is tons more..
but everyone is so focused on trumps bs they wont see this!!!
anyone know what Committee for a Free Lebanon does?
The US Committee for a Free Lebanon (USCFL) was founded on July 4, 1997 by New York financier Ziad K. Abdelnour – the conservative websites have it as neoconservative… [In early May 2013, the SEC settled a securities case with Abdelnour for a $25,000 fine and a five-year ban from the securities industry – another banking crook]
Listing Costs Of Iran-contra Affair: Allies Upset, Credibility Damaged
http://articles.philly.com/1986-12-15/news/26069492_1_iran-scandal-arms-shipments-iran-contra-connection
Father of Son Murdered by Illegal: Pro-Amnesty Kasich, Rubio Should Be Tried for ‘Treason’”
“How much of this do we have to take?” Dan Golvach asked about the Republican Party’s longstanding refusal to enforce the nation’s immigration laws.
Golvach–whose 25-year-old son Spencer was stopped at a traffic light when an illegal alien pulled up next to him and shot him in the head–explains that the reason he now backs Donald Trump for President is because of holidays spent at the cemetery, and the image of his “child’s deflated head in a casket” burned into his mind.
“Losing a child,” Golvach explains, is something one never really gets “acclimated to. I can tell you that it’s a very dark place of despair.”
“And your life is ruined. It’s just ruined. Trust me. Everything is damaged. Nothing has the same meaning anymore. There is no real joy in life. You just go through the motions because you’re not suicidal, and you just do things, but your life will never be particularly joyous again … Once this happens you’re going to have a very marginalized life at best. And thank you, United States government. I thought their first mandate was to protect us, but they’re just protecting their donors– and it’s treason.”
Continues
How can you biatch about obama doing a deal with iran if your not going to bitch about a man who went around operation staunch, and delivered weapons to iran?
\
below is all from 1986, with the money quote being
“The administration is worried about stopping Soviet expansion in Iran, but Arab moderates don’t see that as the main threat. For them the main threat is Muslim fundamentalism, centered in Iran,”
“And now the moderates see the United States providing arms to a country that they see as threatening their very survival. The spread of Muslim fundamentalism to Jordan and Egypt could destroy those moderate regimes.”
and now, years later after the creation of this muslim stuff and that being written in 1986, what happend to those worried states? do you remember any of this oldflyer?
Operation Stanch,’ ” the campaign to stop the flow of arms to Iran. That operation has been the administration’s public policy, which was secretly violated with the arms shipments.
how ya going to respect the constitition when one of your biggest allies in your own office is a man who violated the administration he belonged to policy and moved weapons to iran DURING THE TIME THEY HAD OUR HOSTAGES?
Moderate Arab nations, some of this country’s closest allies, have been ”outraged,” State Department officials acknowledge
[George] Shultz’s personal credibility also has been damaged. He told a meeting of foreign ministers of Persian Gulf nations in October that the United States was doing everything possible to stop the flow of arms to Iran.
and here is this man, who with oliver north, decided on their own to violate all these agreements, treaties, and such, their oaths of office, and more… and did all this…
anyone realize how bad this set black american relationships to the state back?
Jordan’s King Hussein has called the arms shipments to Iran “an insult to all Arabs.” the shipments have “humiliated” Hussein because he has been seeking to buy arms from the United States and has been told “no.”
[but if you take americans hostage, you can get tons of weapons and in the case of obama, a treaty]
“This seems to say, ‘If you want something from the United States, carry a big stick.’ Khomeini got what he wanted by humiliating the Americans, Hussein got nothing by being a friend.”
[then what happened to US muslim and arab relations from that point? they got a lot more violent, didnt they?]
“The Americans have been telling Egypt that they couldn’t bend the law enough to give Egypt lower interest rates, but it turns out they were breaking the law to send arms to Iran,” the diplomat said.
In Europe, the administration’s problem rests largely on the question of credibility because the United States actively sought European support for an arms embargo against Iran while secretly selling arms on its own.
“After all the effort we made to build an anti-terrorism consensus in Europe,” said one State Department official, “we wound up shooting ourselves in the foot. It is going to take some time to rebuild.”
its rebuilt… Cruz hired him, and if elected he will once again be in position to act and do what? as if valerie jarret wasnt enough… eh
Artful, I can’t speak for all the people on this forum who are concerned about Trump and are still brave enough to say something about it, but I’m not calling anyone evil. I’m calling people naé¯ve and/or extraordinarily blind or stubborn, determined to believe what they want to believe, in the face of reality. Trump is a liar. He has made a career and an art form out of lying. In fact, he transcends lying – truth is not even a factor when he considers what to say. The words that come out of his mouth are chosen to get what he wants – that is their only purpose. He changes political parties and points of view as needed. I see no reason to believe why anything he says today, is the truth, vs. all of the things he has said to the contrary on all other days. Not only can you not believe any word he says, he is, the words of a fellow poster, a proven asshole. If you get your Trump, you’re getting a bull-headed tyrant who changes his mind with the passing breeze; and while I have no doubt that he’s less dangerous than Bernie (who seems genuinely committed to ideas that are guaranteed to be catastrophic), I’m not so sure that he’s better than other choices. He could be a very bad thing for this country.
Secondly, I simply think he has poorly thought out ideas, used strictly for effect rather than as a practical solution. For example, I have some experience living in a border state. A wall does not solve the problem – it merely represents a fantasy that some people are buying into. You could cut illegal immigration to nil if you enforced existing law; ended birthright citizenship; refused all taxpayer-subsidized benefits except for life-saving medical intervention to anyone not legally visiting or residing in the country; and actually made it difficult to get jobs without a legitimate TIN. (Current law in the latter regard actually makes it more difficult for employers to avoid hiring illegals than it does to hamper illegals from getting jobs.) Illegals do not come here for any reason but under-the-table jobs and freebies, and if you cut these out, you’ll significantly decrease the problem. All Trump does is pound on his “wall” idea, because he gets the double-digit IQ rabble stomping their feet every time he says it. The reason Trump is being compared to the likes of Mussolini is because he is literally a textbook definition of a nationalist, populist demagogue.
No one – not one person who frequents this list – thinks leftism is great, or that PC should be defended. None of us think that. But many of us understand that the best solution to any excess is not a crashing swing to the other extreme which is what Trumpism brings to the table. There will be victims and unintended consequences, that yes, could create a situation that is worse than what we already have. Extremes are never the right answer.
Kyndyll, you seem to mean well.
However, you appear to suffer from the same debilitating mind-virus we see in the NYT and other places that the Self-Appointed Anointed congregate: These people love ‘nuance’. They get off on explaining in great detail de haut an bas that any given situation is insoluble by Joe Sixpack’s ‘obvious’ approach. And nothing is more obvious to an Ivy Leaguer that a wall is just so naively ‘concrete’…
I’m sorry, I’m not Tom Wolfe… I lack the literary talent to eviscerate and dance on the entrails of this conceit as masterfully as should be done.
Do you really think that Trump intends to build a wall and then wait for them to not come? Does it not seem just the teeniest bit likely that a properly bounded and guarded border might be a sine qua non without which all the other nuances are as nought?
Channeling that noted Trumpian, Oliver Cromwell yet again:
I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.
*de haut en bas
*than that a wall
*naught
It’s getting late in Hong Kong, that famed bastion of rednecked inbred Trump-supporting crypto-fascist Confucianists.
I think I’ll turn in.
Don’t hold back on any factoids, Dodger. I kind of like your brain dumps.
Is Trump the witting, or unwitting, vehicle for civil unrest and the excuse that Obama has been waiting for?
From market ticker:
and before you answer about loans, read the law for elections in regards to it, as its not the same as other things…
How long is a piece of string?
If Jupiter is in the House of Mars will you suffer from erectile dysfunction?
Stupid questions which really have no bearing on the pressing issue of the present age.
Which brings us to…
The Other Chuck: You’ll have to try harder.
Let’s assume that the Left/Obama is just looking for excuses to do whatever nefarious things. Then surely the correct approach is to go straight at them and take no prisoners.
Or do you prefer ‘moral victory’ where you get beaten to the ground by the bad guys, and you bleed out on said ground feeling satisfied that one day a hundred years hence you might get a favourable footnote in someone’s history?
For months, Sen. Ted Cruz backed a critical part of President Barack Obama’s trade agenda. But after weeks of taking heat from conservatives, Cruz abandoned his support for Trade Promotion Authority on Tuesday
TPA prevents Congress from amending trade deals, only allowing a yes-or-no vote. The White House has pushed for Congress to pass fast track so it could finish off the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), a massive trade deal with up to 11 Pacific Rim countries
in between the June 3 document leak and today’s vote, Cruz made several appearances on conservative radio shows to beat back criticism from a Republican base that typically fawns over him.
Cruz voted for fast track in May before it failed in the House, and in April wrote a Wall Street Journal op-ed with Rep. Paul Ryan—the 2012 Republican vice presidential nominee—to support it. His connection with Ryan made Cruz a bigger target with conservatives, who see Ryan as a mouthpiece for the Republican House leadership
Cruz later said in an interview at the Capitol that he had “extended conversations” “based on a number of factors” since the TiSA leak, which lead him to opposing fast track.
“If Cruz is so concerned about his poll numbers,” the aide continued, “maybe he should spend more time campaigning and less time meddling in the House to avoid these desperate ‘I was for it, before I was against it’ ploys.”
Has Cruz not been the reformer that he claims to be? Is that why most of the Senate believe he is an outsider? Where has he deviated from conservative principles?
i showed where… in his abstaining lorreta lynch… hiring establisment biggies who violated and lied in courts, lying about his loan for the first campaign… and more..
and you have no idea what the senate BELIEVES
unless now, cause you hate trump, you suddently believe everything they say, which months ago you called liars.
you let me know what a bunch of professional liars believs, for if they told the truth, trum would never be in the race at all…
Steve D Says: ‘Perhaps the asshole will turn out to be an American.’ // Sure but I’ll vote for the best odds. Always a good idea.
worked great in 1935…
Fred, do you really think Trump intends to build a wall, period?
That – fundamentally – is where we differ.
This whole experience has been surreal, in that people who normally would look out the window if a politician told them it was a sunny day literally believe every word this guy says. It’s absolutely bizarre. “He’s not a politician, so we can believe what he says,” I guess is the theory – except he’s a notoriously “expedient” deal-maker, which means that he has spent 50 years saying whatever it takes to make a sale. He’s even less honest than a typical politician. Seriously, people! How is this in any way difficult to comprehend? I wouldn’t buy a car from this guy.
Kinch Says: it’s going to look like the first weeks of the Spanish Civil War — Read your Beevor for just how unpleasant that was.
funny you should say that kinch:
Like most significant historical events, the Spanish Civil War of 1936-39 has spawned a vast historiography of competing interpretations. In the six decades since the Nationalist victory, the gradual declassification of hundreds of thousands of documents associated with the war has increased, not diminished, the intensity of scholarly debate on many issues surrounding the Iberian struggle. Among the few points of consistent agreement, at least among historians in the West, has been the unambiguously negative assessment of the role of Stalin and the Soviet Union.
The Soviet dictator acquired his disreputable status before the war even began, and he retained the position long after the last Russian advisor left the Iberian Peninsula
It would be difficult to locate even a brief overview of the civil war published outside of Russia that does not in some fashion demonize the Soviet dictator.
Since the war’s end, a full explication of Soviet involvement has eluded historians, remaining hidden away in restricted archives or confined to untranslated Russian memoirs.
and
In the early 1930s, through various front organizations–most notably several dozen Spanish chapters of the Friends of the Soviet Union–Moscow was able to acquaint many thousands of Spaniards with the Kremlin’s approved version of the Soviet experiment.
At the same time, the Soviet regime and the Comintern together endeavored to gather critical information on the nature of Spanish politics, society, and culture, and cemented ties with potential collaborators and fellow-travelers in advance of a later, still-unimagined precipitating event.
This was the Kremlin’s policy everywhere at the time: infiltrate, penetrate, and hope for an opening.
Moscow’s propaganda onslaught and clandestine maneuverings in Spain were nothing unusual during the interwar period, but these activities would take on immense importance in the autumn of 1936, when the Spanish Republic became the first and only Western European state to request Soviet military assistance to quell an internal rebellion.
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/kod01/frames/fkod01.html
the spanish civil war was one of the events that stalin and the cpusa and others used to reap a huge funding and ideological war in the west and when so many actors, stars, and bon vivants joined the reds, and so many not knowing that a lot of this on both sides was their orchestration.
[you know, like bernie and such calling for antifascism, using adorno to describe trump, etc… your right, its 1930 spain… complete with the soviet games, and now a second time around. would obama ask russia for help if it came to civil war like blows?]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
BLERT: The TU-4 is an IDENTICAL copy of our B-29 – to include it’s flaws, too. Stalin built more B-29 than we did. One still sits on static display in Russia – at the center point of honor.
love the point blert… they could not even convert the design to metric, so they had to build it to the foot and inch.. and your right, they left the bad in as they had no means to protest or improve, they were socialists… so they copied…
just as the socialized people are copyng tactics that they abhor but work, as that is what humans do whiel crying for others to lose by maintaining a morality that they dont mantain, and dont want to maintain, as they would lose if they did…
To mf,
Your point that Trump has responded somewhat in kind to the left, turing their own take no prisoners language, and post-constitutional-restraint assumptions back on them, is well taken.
The one thing the left has always relied upon, is that when extra-constitutional push comes to take-it-to-the-streets shove, the “conservatives” can always be relied upon to respect those moral inhibitions the left itself mocks.
What has happened here, as everyone now realizes, is that large numbers of essentially non-ideological and not especially conservative people who once thought the welfare state was created for their benefit, and that they were only being asked to share it, have found out that not only was it wrested away from them, but that those who have done it are crowing about having done so, and openly rejoicing in the demise and existential elimination of an entire class of people: the Trump voter.
Those of us who do not support Trump have to ask ourselves: What has the Trump voter actually got to lose if social violence does erupt?
They already have been targeted by Obama and the left. Their children are being murdered by lawless beneficiaries of a lawless governing elite, and their stock of stored capital, the accumulation of generations of savings is dwindling while opportunities for replenishing it in the domestic marketplace are simultaneously shrinking.
The left has always been deadly serious about getting what it wants and their lack of any moral principles which ultimately reference anything else than their will to collectivity, has usually given them a significant advantage in any street-fight.
As others have pointed out, there is a significant percentage of Trump supporters who seem relatively irreligious and who view morals in much the same way the left does; situationally adjustable rules deployed for polemical effect.
And frankly, what is their interest in becoming willing victims of Alinsky rule # 4, “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”
All of us, have seen how the arguments of the left shifted over the years. Where once they plead for rights on the basis of a universal natural law, they now, having achieved institutional power, abandoned any pretense of a shared allegiance to natural law and rights, and instead demand conformity on the basis of their will alone.
What in the world has Granny Kasich got to say to someone who has come to see reality in these terms?
mf said:
So what is behind it?
The BLM people know they can get a reaction from Trump supporters, just like Palestinians know they can provoke Israeli attacks for propaganda purposes.
Nick Says:
March 13th, 2016 at 9:40 am
His slogan, in fact, reflects that he can’t be trusted — he makes deals.
so you didnt trust reagan?
Reagan slogan:
make american great again
Trump
Lets make america great again
Make America Great Again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_America_Great_Again
and this was also interesting by you:
that everything is negotiable, that he himself brings in foreign workers.
So you WOULD not be able to tell Oskar Schindler was not a Nazi, as he made bombs for the party, while saving jews lives… (the point is appearances, not that trump is like schindler)…
when in rome, do as romans do
when in democrat land, do as democrats want
the result is economic badness.
so what your saying is that you would suffer your home and family lost because you buy goods from someone who made things through foreign labor to remain competitive, and you negate the people who made it competitive…
would you economically hurt your family for people who mostly hate you and attack you? cause thats what your asking him to do?
would you call oskar a nazi, after all, he didnt refuse to do business with them, and while he is in the hall of the righteous, he did manage to preserve his fortune to some degree (though he lost a lot)…
you cant judge a book by its cover
unless its trump..
or a democrat, as they are always what htey appear
and establishment repubs, which we dislike for doing the same as democrats, while pretending to be helpless
veddy interesting.. – arte johnson…
mf Says:
Maybe Hillary will be better
Maybe. Maybe she’ll be worse.
The one thing I’m sure of is that you won’t be comparing Trump to Hillary after the election. We will never know the consequences of what might have been, only what is.
blert Says:
March 13th, 2016 at 12:22 pm
They would have by now.
no blert… they are paranoid that he will do what cruz will never do… his image already sucks, you cant tarnish tarnish.. cruz on the other hand has all that bankster stuff that does motivate people to go to the left. so the idea is get the impolite big mouth who will completely rag on hillaries stuff without care for a future he has already…
will cruz bring up benghazi and risk the left saying he hates women? after all, the left says that about trump despite his ex employees as women giving him a great review in terms of pay ane equality… but again, you cant tarnish tarnish, so that wont work with trump if he says it
will cruz bring up the lies about helicopter attacks and such? again, will cruz face the feminists yellng he hates women, and how would he combat that?
will cruz bring up the emails? and again, he is too pc to survive the anti woman thing…
so cruz is too pc to win against hillary
if he tries he will end up being more vilified for the sudden appearance of such behavior, or the lack of it in the face of wanting to remain clean.
then there is the trump promise of prosecuting hillary… does he mean it? will he? we dont know, do we… but cruz has made no un pc remark as to her ciminality… but trump has her and everyone off their feet on it… they dont know either.. (or like the thirteenth warrior said “they now have to calculate what htey dont know”)
for hillary and the left, if they take trump at his word, a loss is a criminal indictment… and if cruz wins, she is safe and so is all that evidence that would be open in court.
so guess what? they cant take a chance that trump will win and he will do what he said he would do… if so, then their doyen will end up incarcerated… that leaves the party leadership role in the hands of bernie.
trump basically called down the temple on himself much like samson did for delilah… and they are really quacking in their pants as there is a ton of stuff that a whistleblowing president can do to the lefts machine if he is un pc enough to actually do it!!!!
cruz is way too establishment..
its as truthful as mao (and lenin) liberalizations that were used to find dissidents. everyone wanted to believe they moved to a more moderate stance but it was to bring the people they wanted out into the light… so when talking socialists or communists of the leadership kind, you better not think that anything you see is real, unless accidently so like a stopped clock.
Seven hedge fund managers have given $1 million or more so far in this election cycle, according to Reuters. The top donors are Robert Mercer of Renaissance Technologies (approximately $14 million), George Soros of Soros Fund Management (more than $8 million), and Paul Singer of Elliott Management (more than $6 million). Republicans have out-fundraised Democrats from this group of donors by a 3:2 margin.
Candidates Ted Cruz and Hilary Clinton are the top recipients.
and
Real estate mogul Donald Trump ….. wants to crack down on an IRS loophole that allows hedge fund honchos to list their profits as “carried interest” instead of income. So these earnings are taxed as capital gains, which carry a top rate of 20%, plus a 3.8% surtax, instead of as wages, which currently have a top tax rate of 39.6%, plus a 2.9% Medicare tax.
“We’re going to be reducing taxes for the middle class, but for the hedge fund guys, they’re going to be paying up,” Trump said on CBS’ Face the Nation Sunday. ”
since ted cruz signed a policy statement on not raising taxes, he is off the list of those who favor the tax increase the comes from closing the carried forward loophole hedge fund people (like his wife) would then be subjected to… Trump is not subjected to it, nor is hillary either…
in signing the pledge he gets to look like “read my lips” but as with that, its not so…
thats it for me..
before neo or the people on the website hunt me down and get rid of me
i dont want to be swimming with the fishes…
“His slogan, in fact, reflects that he can’t be trusted — he makes deals.”
As opposed to someone who said, “I won, you shut up.”
Get back to us when he says, “After the election I’ll be more flexible.”
“do you really think Trump intends to build a wall, period?”
Well, according to a number of videos on youtube, he’s been saying that for several years. So, yeah, I think he’ll get the wall built.
And if he doesn’t — then we’ll be in the same place as Cruz or Rubio or Hillary wins the election. Because we *know* that none of them will build a wall.
So it’s like, heads we win, tails we don’t lose.
“except he’s a notoriously “expedient” deal-maker, which means that he has spent 50 years saying whatever it takes to make a sale.”
Um, have you bothered to read his book? The Art of the Deal came out in 1988. Full disclosure, I never read it until last month.
He doesn’t deal just to make a deal. He deals to make a GOOD deal. He has said and demonstrated over and over again that he’ll walk away from a bad deal.
“Seriously, people! How is this in any way difficult to comprehend? I wouldn’t buy a car from this guy.”
LOL. He doesn’t sell cars.
Is there anything that might make you question your assesment? ’cause he’s built and sold a whole hell of a lot of very expensive high-end real-estate.
So … either your assessment is wrong … or he has been pulling the wool over the eyes of a whole lot of extremely rich people for the last 30-40 years. I know which way I’d bet.
Just for grins I looked into the price for a one-night stay in the Chicago Trump Hotel. $500 per night.
From wikipedia:
Real estate
“Trump Tower”
Trump Tower in New York City
Trump Tower Baku, Azerbaijan (Completed)
Trump Tower Batumi, Georgia (planned)
Trump Tower Manila, Philippines (planned)
Trump Tower, Philadelphia, USA (planned, never built)
Trump Tower, Tampa, Florida, USA (incomplete, abandoned)
Trump Tower, White Plains, New York, USA
Trump Towers Charlotte, North Carolina, USA (proposed, never built)
Trump Towers Istanbul is a mixed-use building with two towers (39-storey and 37-storey) and a shopping mall in Istanbul, Turkey. Completed in 2010, it is the first Trump building in Europe.
Trump Towers, Sunny Isles Beach, Florida, USA
Trump Tower (Punta del Este, Uruguay), under construction
“Trump International Hotel and Tower”
Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)
Trump International Hotel and Tower (Dubai), never built
Trump International Hotel and Tower (Fort Lauderdale), the former name of an unfinished luxury condominium-hotel
Trump International Hotel and Tower (Honolulu)
Trump International Hotel and Tower (New Orleans), never built
Trump International Hotel and Tower (New York City)
Trump International Hotel and Tower (Toronto)
Trump International Hotel (Washington, D.C.) (under construction)
Trump International Hotel and Tower (Vancouver)
“Trump Plaza”
Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino is the now-closed 39-story Trump Plaza Atlantic City Hotel & Casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey built in 1984 by Trump Entertainment Resorts and Harrah’s Entertainment.
Trump Plaza (Palm Beach) is a pair of 32-story Residential Towers, located at 525 South Flagler Drive, West Palm Beach, Florida built in 1985.
Trump Plaza (New York City) is a 37-story residential tower, on Third Avenue between 61st and 62nd Streets, New York City, New York, built in 1984.
Trump Plaza (New Rochelle) is a 42-story residential tower under construction in New Rochelle, New York.
Trump Plaza (Jersey City) is a pair of 55-story and 50-story residential towers (latter under construction) in Jersey City, New Jersey.
Short name for Trump Plaza and Riverwalk, the name of the park surrounding Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)
Other Buildings
Trump Taj Mahal, in Atlantic City, New Jersey (now owned by others)
Trump World Tower, in New York City
The Trump Building, also in New York City
Trump International Hotel & Residence, in Phoenix, never built
Trump Ocean Club International Hotel and Tower, in Panama City
Trump SoHo, hotel condominium in New York City
Trump Ocean Resort Baja Mexico, Tijuana (proposed, never built)
Trump Park Avenue, Manhattan
Trump Hotel Las Vegas, Las Vegas, Nevada
Trump Parc, Stamford, Connecticut
Golden Nugget Atlantic City, formerly known as Trump Marina
Elite Tower, formally known as Trump Plaza Tower, and Trump Elite Tower, Ramat Gan, Tel Aviv, Israel (planned)
Golf
Trump International Golf Links and Hotel Ireland
Trump National Doral Miami
Trump National Golf Club (Bedminster)
Trump National Golf Club (Briarcliff Manor, New York)
Trump National Golf Club (Los Angeles)
Trump National Golf Club (Philadelphia)
Trump National Golf Club (Washington, D.C.)
Trump Turnberry, in Scotland
Yeah, obviously I’m making a rhetorical point when I say that I wouldn’t buy a used car from Trump.
As it happens, I buy more cars than the average person and I can tell you that even crummy lots that get the bottom-of-the-barrel wholesale junk with reconstructed titles would not hire Trump. You have to be somewhat personable to be a car salesman.
If Trump gets elected, and turns out to be the disaster that we know is inevitable with a creature of his ilk given that level of power, are you going to do the Democrat thing and blame us for it? That things would have been splendid had he not been opposed from the beginning by us stupid small-government, constitutionalist troglodytes? I get that most of you new faces will be long gone, your paychecks for this work long since cashed and spent, but a few of you are regulars.
http://righteousmind.com/presidentialprimaries/
Note how Cruz’s supporters compare with the “average Republican”
They actually score lower on authority, more libertarian is one respect, than the average Republican. Higher than average on “sanctity” but lower than average on respect for or attraction to, authority.
http://righteousmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Figure1_R.png
That is an interesting mix, psychologically speaking.
Have to watch the ‘Authority’ metric stuff. Obviously there *is* a spectrum of approval of authority to which all humans belong. However, I’d recommend doing some reading up on the background to how such metrics are arrived at and the interpretation of them before treating them as a chunked given.
Google Australian psychologist John Ray along with the Authority term to get some idea of the bigger picture.
fred:
Trump myth and reality.
Also see this and this.
As for The Art of the Deal, Trump did not write it. Maybe you should vote for the actual author, Tony Schwartz, who tweets “I wrote the Art of the Deal. Donald Trump read it.”
Normally I don’t read Artfl’s posts, just skim over them, because there’s just not enough time in my life to become enmeshed in conspiracy theories or rehash the baleful influence of Communism on the world. We won. They lost — remember, Dodger? Now it’s back to plain old Russia, doing what Russia has done for 500 years. Yes, that’s a problem, but reciting the machinations of the Menshiviks, Bolsheviks, Trotskyites, the Kronstadt Mutiny, etc., etc., etc., is not going to help us resolve it. Reading the Godfather trilogy would probably be more useful.
Be that as it may, I was skimming along Artfl’s last post when I came upon something I know about — a lot about — more than God intended man to kinow about — taxes.
What you said, Artfl, about the “hedge fund guys” that Trump is going to tax and Cruz isn’t is pure malarkey. The IRS has been recharacterizing income as ordinary instead of capital gain, as earned instead of unearned, as passive instead of active and active instead of passive, for longer than the almost 40 years I’ve been practicing lax law. Characterizing “carried interest” as ordinary rather than capital gains requires no statute and is not a “tax increase” that Cruz has pledged to stand in the schoolhouse door to prevent.
Besides which, real estate has its own tax loopholes aplenty, and you can mortgage your house that Donald will NOT eliminate those.
By revealing that you know nothing about taxes, you are indicating to me that you know little about your other subjects. “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.” — A. Lincoln
“Google Australian psychologist John Ray along with the Authority term to get some idea of the bigger picture.”
Will do