March 23rd, 2016

Let’s say the Belgian government knew an attack would be coming at the airport: what should they have done?

Commenter “Artfldgr” has offered this link from Haaretz:

The security services knew, with a high degree of certainty, that attacks were planned in the very near future for the airport and, apparently, for the subway as well.

Despite the advance warning, the intelligence and security preparedness in Brussels, where most of the European Union agencies are located, was limited in its scope and insufficient for the severity and immediacy of the alert.

As far as is known, the attacks were planned by the headquarters of the Islamic State (ISIS) in Raqqa, Syria, which it has pronounced as the capital of its Islamic caliphate.

The terror cell responsible for the attacks in Brussels on Tuesday was closely associated with the network behind the series of attacks in Paris last November. At this stage, it appears that both were part of the same terrorist infrastructure, connected at the top by the terrorist Salah Abdeslam, who was involved in both the preparation for the Paris attacks and its implementation…

Abdeslam’s arrest was apparently the trigger for Tuesday’s attacks, due to the concern in ISIS that he might give information about the planned attacks under interrogation, particularly in the light of reports that he was cooperating with his captors…

The testimony of the detained terrorist, alongside other intelligence information, part of which concerned ISIS operations in Syria, should have resulted in much more stringent security preparedness in crowded public places in Brussels, along with a heightened search for the cell.

We don’t know whether this report is accurate or not, but let’s say for the sake of argument that it is.

The question is: what should the authorities have done that they didn’t do? Which is a subset of the question: how do we prevent attacks on soft targets at their most vulnerable points (the Brussels airport attack occurred before the security checkpoints were reached)?

I’ve often wondered about that, whether it be a mall, a subway, a bridge, an airport, a theater—even with a warning, how would you protect against such an attack? What should you, the government, actually do about it if you don’t know where or in particular when, or who? In the case of Brussels, do we really know that, after Abdeslam’s capture there wasn’t a “heightened search for the cell”? It’s not as though “heightened searches” necessarily lead to success, either, and it’s not as though there wasn’t probably a “heightened search” already going on, in order to effect Abdeslam’s capture in the first place.

I can’t find the information at the moment, but I remember reading long ago that in Israel airport security begins when a person is approaching the airport in a car. In other words, it doesn’t just begin at the security counter when people put their carry-ons on the machines, it starts long before. But just a moment’s reflection should make it clear that the Israeli approach can only work in a country so small with so few airports and flights. To do something similar here would nearly paralyze our air travel system, not to mention the traffic coming into airports.

The Haaretz article calls for “more stringent security preparedness in crowded public places.” Again, what would that entail in a city the size of Brussels? I would imagine it would mean more police presence looking for suspicious people, “suspicious” meaning those with backpacks or bulky clothing, which probably covers half the people on the subway. If you add “those who look Middle Eastern” into the prescription, you’ve still got a lot of people (for example, I and my entire family would most definitely be among them). This would require an extraordinary outlay of police, money, and public education, and I don’t think it necessarily would have prevented a thing. We also don’t know it wasn’t already in place in Brussels, at least to a certain extent.

The bottom line is that such attacks are extraordinarily difficult to defend against, even with advance (general) warnings.

There are other things I think should have been done. I agree that neighborhoods known to harbor Muslim immigrants who are radicals need greatly stepped-up surveillance and if necessary much more deportation (and greater border security and immigration limits, including from other EU countries, to avoid their coming back in). Same for radical mosques. Whatever the current level is, it does not seem to be nearly enough.

But there’s also the source— Raqqa, Syria. Why is that place still standing? Why has it been allowed to function for so long?

Another thing that troubles me is how much information—unnecessary and dangerous information, in my opinion—the MSM routinely gives out. The terrorists might have been concerned anyway that Abdeslam would squeal, but why oh why did we also have to be given “reports that he was cooperating with his captors”? It is not unusual for the MSM to reveal information that has harmed security and intelligence, all for the sake of a story.

[NOTE: I have little doubt that some people will say that the way to protect against such attacks is to deport all Muslims. I’ve already discussed that in several previous threads (including comments sections), such as this and this, among others. I also plan another post at some point soon that will discuss it.]

62 Responses to “Let’s say the Belgian government knew an attack would be coming at the airport: what should they have done?”

  1. Richard Aubrey Says:

    Two items.
    As far as you extend the perimeter, actual or metaphorical, someplace it ends and the bomber comes to the edge. And, since you have to control people getting in, no matter how far you extend the perimeter, the people will be stacked up at the edge.

    If you harden a hundred targets so that they’re not accessible, the bomber goes for the hundred and first.

  2. K-E Says:

    Flood the airport with security people? Have someone who knows what they are doing watching the security cameras at the airport and grab anyone who looks ‘off’ (like people wearing only one glove and a guy with a false nose)? Screen people before they enter the airport, rather than wait for the security line inside? Do some ‘profiling’?

    So many things could’ve been done, but weren’t.

  3. neo-neocon Says:

    Richard Aubrey:

    I’m in agreement.

  4. Wooly Bully Says:

    The answer is that you don’t play defense, you go on the offensive. That’s what we did successfully after 9/11. Unfortunately, we seem to have forgotten all that. It was so long ago! Who can remember? If France and Belgium were to destroy ISIS, these attacks would stop. Until then, they will continue. Get used to it.

  5. Cornhead Says:

    Woolly Bully is right. Go on offense. And for the first one the Belgians catch, chop off his head during prime time.

    The Islamists will get the message: The weak horse is now the strong horse.

  6. brdavis9 Says:

    I’m pretty sure this question has been the point of several recent threads.

    And answered. With variations on a theme.

    …though I suspect we’re not going to agree on the answer until we’ve all reached the same point on the continuum that I introduced here.

    To quote David French at NRO again “…While not all Muslims are jihadists, jihad is so deeply imprinted in the DNA of Islam that the world will confront it as long as Islam lives.”

  7. Bob_CA Says:

    Here are some ideas that unfortunately will never happen:

    Do heavy duty profiling at security checkpoints. Ignore the Asian grandmothers, 6 year old kids, etc and focus on Middle Eastern looking young men and women and subject them to rigorous screening.

    Pass laws to step up penalties for harboring or protecting terrorists in any meaningful way to include confiscating their homes and jail time for people who provide material aid such as money, transportation, warnings about approaching police. Of course any non-citizens who are even suspected of aiding attackers should be immediately deported.

    Instead of spending all their tax revenue on government handouts, the Europeans should spend a meaningful part of their budget to build up their military and then use it to attack ISIS in the Middle East. Unlike other groups such as Al Qaeda, ISIS has set up a nation state. Western military tactics are very effective against this kind of target. Holding ground is a key point of their mystique since that is required for a caliphate. Take that away removes one of their strongest recruiting talking points.

  8. snopercod Says:

    Bear with me here, I have an analogy as to why law enforcement agencies do nothing even with advanced warning. I live in a wooded area that was clear cut sixty years ago. It’s grown up with junk pines which are now reaching the end of their lives and falling over on power lines with all-to-frequent regularity. We call the utility company and tell them, “Hey, there’s a tree leaning over the power lines out here and could you cut it down please before it falls on the lines?” They rarely do. I finally figured out that they’d rather send crews out at 2AM on a weekend in the middle of an ice storm than fix the problem in advance. That way, they all get triple-time and nobody can complain that they were wasting money. The lesson here is that bureaucracies always do what’s safe and gives them more power and money. After a terrorist attack, NOBODY complains about the money being spent or the intrusive searches.

  9. Cornflour Says:


    Typo in first line.
    Haaretz not Haartz.

    P.S. The seven comments, currently added to your post, don’t show up. Comments to other posts are OK. For the time being, if you reply to my comment, I won’t see it. So, if you’re in the mood to insult the blind, here’s your chance.

  10. Frog Says:

    I disagree, Cornhead.
    Jihadis love death more than life. Death while on a holy mission. The suicide bombers are not retarded or stupid. Never forget the 9/11 Saudis who were all well-educated and learned how to fly Boeings. Into the WTC. Right on target.

    Liken these individual Jihadis to individual cancer cells.The cancer cannot be cured until the last cancer cell is killed. Period. Killing those cells is accomplished with often a great deal of toxicity, and sometimes death.

    The facts for treatment of the Jihadi cancers are ugly. There will be a great deal of toxicity. But the Molenbeeks and the banlieus must be eradicated. Praying to Mecca is to be verboten. Mosques must be bulldozed. Everyone must publicly eat pork, and those who refuse will be shot.
    If the Muslims cannot, will not be assimilated and civilized, then what? At some point, the Serbian “ethnic cleansing” solution to Islam must be faced. Kind of like lethal doses of chemotherapy followed by bone marrow transplant as rescue.

    But, as in oncology, progress will be made, and the therapies will eventually become more targeted, selective, and thus less toxic. And patients can be cured.

    Our esteemed Barack Hussein is totally, flat wrong: Islam and ISIS are indeed existential threats to all of Western civilization.

  11. ghost707 Says:

    Governments want multiculturalism.
    Multiculturalism is what they’re getting.

    Get used to terrorism Europe, it’s part of that wonderful
    multiculturalism that you voted for.

  12. redbud Says:

    Stefan Molyneux believes that ending the welfare state will cause the migrants to self deport, thus solving the problem.

  13. Ann Says:

    A writer in the Jerusalem Post says this about the attack at the airport in Brussels:

    Sure, there is no hermetic security, and terrorists take advantage of loopholes. But there is no need to be a genius to understand that what happened yesterday in Brussels was a colossal security and intelligence failure. According to media reports, Belgian authorities had advance warning about an “imminent terror attack.”

    Yet neither the country’s police nor its security forces increased their presence in the streets or by deploying check points at the entrances to the airport. No wonder that the terrorists managed to enter with explosive belts.

  14. blert Says:

    With that many Muslims attacks are guaranteed.

    Ask the Turks or the Iraqis how far measures have to go to stop murder-suicide attacks.

    The real world answer is that it takes a full on — Nazi style — police state.

    Meanwhile Japanese and Korean subways remain safe.

    You can’t have open immigration in a welfare state.

    You can’t have civil liberties in a Muslim state.

    Even when Muslims represent a mere 8% of the population – – that society is entirely warped.

    Halal meals in prison, schools,…

    Prayer breaks on the assembly lines…

    Muslims are a self-designated parasitic class… lethal to any welfare state.

    But, it’s a slow kill … leading to a catastrophic collapse in the end days.

  15. parker Says:

    It is a needle in a haystack dilemma if borders are open, welfare is abundant, and wherever simpering multicultural suicidalists define the meme with screams of racist, islamophobia, etc. when the reality is that islam in general is the root, stem, leaf, flower of this barbaric death cult. Yes, not all muslims support jihad, but the ‘moderates’ turn a blind eye away from the core of islam.

    Nothing can be done to stop these attacks until the West acknowledges this is a war between civilization and a barbaric death cult that has been allowed to fester for 1400 years.

  16. Ymarsakar Says:

    Without the US military and intel support from our “enhanced interrogation” techniques, Europe is one bit fat pacifist lamp waiting for a wolf to eat it.

  17. Artfldgrs Says:

    Frog I disagree. we do this thing were we imagine real people to have truly bizarre thoughts because we cant generate the same kind of thoughts with the same kind of determination in our lives, and pretend that because we cant, we must love life too much and they don’t. Has that wonderful sound you hear in so many myths generated by academics trying to tell us how a world works they do not live in but mostly read about and take trips to in which they see the surface and come up with some amazing muck (some of which becomes the normal explanation of some point for some group of people if not the whole of society)

    those ideas while i have heard them before do not fit the thousands of years of such behaviors and not just by Islam. They are also much harder for modern man to understand given that he is so separated and unsocial compared to people who still live with each other and not their devices.

    Duty is heavier than a mountain
    Death is as light as a feather…
    -Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors

    How this works, is not all that hard to understand, even George Harrison sang about it…

    It’s all up to what you value
    Down to where you are
    It all swings on the pain you’re gone through
    Getting where you are

    It’s all up to what you value
    In your motor car
    It all rests on what it cost’s you
    Getting where you are
    It’s what you value.

    If you look at what the left wants to deconstruct its all about changing what you value so nothing is valued enough to think its worth fighting and or dying for.

    What do they value? Religion, family, lineage, community, respect, posterity, remembrance, social standing, afterlife, validation…

    None of these are logically calculable

    These are the things that are biologically important and were the core of what we built out societies around until very recently

    and are told we are superior for it because we have lots of fancy stuff, and they dont, and we have rotten relationships, below replacement birth, vulgar norms were we debase ourselves and dont realize it, and they have solid relationships that last a lifetime, traditions that are complex and woven that they like and dont want destroyed, belief that there is more to life than nihilism, and that protecting this is more significant and eternal than they are and they have a place and part to play.

    And that’s barely the tip of it…

    they are not idiots, they are not backwards, they are not a lot of things we make up about them in some feeble way to make sense, without also seeing the stuff we lost and hide behind.

    and they are not radical they are determined

    The same kind of determination and focus makes for gothic cathedrals that take several lifetimes to make, or fuels a march through the institutions for several lifetimes.

    The west likes to look at things without respect..
    this makes it very hard to understand because without that, one explains with silly ideas of others thoughts (respect would prevent accepting such things)

    you can even go through neos blog were you can see people doing this over Trump fans, trying to tell us what they think, which in reality is not what they think but what they want you to think they think so you dont respect them.

    we cant understand why so many people kill each other in the hood. but that’s cause we don’t usually understand what its like when your reputation is the most important thing you have, and you have little else. A person with nothing but self respect and others regard is going to protect it.

    Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories. Sun Tzu

    Westerners dont know themselves any more and want to be what they are told to be, they do not know the opposition as that requires respect and regard, and they lose their battles despite their superior wealth and technology…

  18. Artfldgrs Says:

    As far as the question neo put forth, there are designs that could mitigate this and minimize it, but we dont design that way, we design as if bad cant happen. [i can easily think of a few designs that would not push out a perimeter and would limit the outcome severely. but they are based on old designs for entrances to castles which kind of had similar problems]

    the left has laid us bare and naked and too wrapped up in how we are defined by actions they tell us mean things that they often dont, and we are paralized by pc so cant even take common sense action.

    this was always given to us to lose a war, but not necessarily this opponent.

    they make want globalism, interntional communism, global collectivism, but now we are understanding why that never happened as borders isolate issues and keep them manageable.

    the left has dared us and scared us into a lot of stupid things. dont have borders, if you have borders your a xenophobe, when our past knew that good fences meant good neighbors.

    cant protect women, thats evil, so hang em out to dry… they are equal, they can fight, so put them in battle so that below replacement birthrate becomes unrecoverable and the target group is exterminated with the remainder to be diluted out of existence. they dont value themselves anyway, not like those who think their children and future generations of their genetics do.

    if we are nice the bullies will stop being bullies and if they continue we are not nice enough. etc.

    those are sarcastic but if we try we can probably write a little purple book of bull crap we live by now that is dysfunctional as heck in the real world, but since the world has changed and its a different world every year they say it when something happens, maybe in tomorrows real world that changed from today, dysfunctional will work

    in truth we like to believe pc defines the self actuated level of maslows heirarchy, but if you look at it and what i wrote, you might notice that ours is a fractured pyramid that needs a repair in lots of middle areas and the top ideals are chosen for a fetish of moral superiority

    like no prejudice – which our attempts to be, is leaving us dead not superior, and highly vulnerable, which is probably why it exists, and because we dont think its needed its something to get over and fix so we are superior people.

    not likely

  19. Richard Aubrey Says:

    Here’s an analogous question. Boko Haram recruits from the Yoruba tribe. This bunch contains millions of people in the Sahel, mostly in Nigeria. They have a militant version of Islam.
    They go to Boko Haram because they like to do that stuff.
    The Yoruba will not soon stop breeding–in several senses of the word=–recruits for Boko Haram. And, given the space and the resources available to local governments, the hundred and first target is always available.
    There is no possibility they will stop.
    Any ideas?

  20. Cornhead Says:


    No death penalty in Europe so I was dreaming.

    Saw a report on the bombers and it suggested one of them didn’t serve a full sentence. Guy shot at a cop. Missed.

    I guess just jailing them left and right is the best thing to do.

  21. Frog Says:

    “the left has laid us bare and naked and too wrapped up in how we are defined by actions they tell us mean things that they often dont, and we are paralized by pc so cant even take common sense action.”

  22. Ymarsakar Says:

    There is no possibility they will stop.
    Any ideas?

    Bush’s Iraq and Afghanistan funneled them into kill zones setup by the US Marines and other infantry units in the ME. Also drew in a lot of the terrorist cadre and leaders, who they captured and strained for intel using Enhanced Interrogation.

    One of the biggest problems with insurgents and guerillas is that you need intel to prevent attacks from them, but they are pretty hard to capture alive.

    Now a days, the killing zone is in our cities and instead of killing 10 jihadists for one casualty of ours, they end up killing dozens or hundreds for each suicide bomber/agent.

  23. Ymarsakar Says:

    As for a solution, take away their women, with the children, and put them somewhere else.

    Without the males, Islam has a hard time continuing their rules.

    However, without a ME or African base to put these women and children, they would have to be shipped to another country, and that’s pretty problematic.

    Everything seems to rise or fall based on logistics. No logistics in the ME, means no strategy can be applied. To get allies, we need safe zones for them to work and live in. Safe zones that don’t exist when every city is a Saigon under occupation by Leftists and communists.

  24. Frog Says:

    Step One:

  25. Beverly Says:

    On security: Ronald Kessler is interviewed (by a liberal with a horrid voice) about his book about the Secret Service.

    The biggest bombshell? Joe Biden often leaves his USS guys behind — along with the nuclear football — because he wants to keep up his “I’m Just Folksy!” act. If America is attacked, they wouldn’t be able to reach him in time, if Preezy Boyfriend were knocked out.

    More at the link. (Note that the interviewer with the vocal fry problem is extremely concerned when he mentions, mildly, that the SS guys would get upset at Michelle’s racism — she interrupts him, drags him back over the revelation, tries to make him retract it. “I don’t know what that [revelation] is doing in there,” she says defensively. “It seems political to me.”)

    Jimmy Carter’s “Just Folks” act was all horse manure. He made a show of carrying his own suitcase, but it was always empty! and the minute the cameras were off, he’d thrust the prop at an aide. Couldn’t be arsed to speak to the agents, either. Lots more in the book.

    In the President’s Secret Service: Behind the Scenes with Agents in the Line of Fire and the Presidents They Protect

  26. Beverly Says:

    Per Artful’s painting of the moslem world versus the West: what you say is largely true of the lefties, but not of us conservative Christians and conservative Jews. We’re not all nihilistic apostates. But they do run the megaphones, so they loom larger than their actual numbers.

    Japan forbids moslem immigration, do they not? THAT is the way to go. We already have sleeper cells, greatly augmented by Pres. Hussein [!!!!] I still can’t believe our fellow “citizens” elected that … guy [!!!] shoveling thousands and thousands more into the continental US, often “seeding” them in conservative Christian areas. People report hearing gunfire in some of the moslems’ backwoods enclaves; the local cops know about them but can’t touch them on private property.

    As of now, we’re up to about 3 million (Hussein greased the way for 1 million of those). Now is the time to bar the door. Do we want to go the way of England? of Germany? of Sweden?

    To hell with these people. Ship them back to their alleged paradise with no “infidels” and no Jews; no “uncovered wimmen,” no open homosexuals. Sod the lot. The only thing they have Ever respected is force: time to drop the hammer of Thor, dammit.

  27. backofanenvelope Says:

    It won’t be popular on this blog – but Trump was right in calling for a halt to Muslim immigration till things are sorted out. His mistake was in singling out the Muslims. He should have widened his scope and called for a temporary end to ALL third world migration. A few years ago UKIP called for a five year halt while we absorbed the ones we already had and was howled down.

  28. Richard Aubrey Says:

    Point wrt the Yoruba is not that, with some luck and a lot of resources, we can funnel the bastards into kill zones.
    Point is, there will be no end of a fresh batch of recruits because that’s how the Yoruba roll. Culturally, religiously, etc. Year after year.

  29. MikeII Says:

    “As far as is known, the attacks were planned by the headquarters of the Islamic State (ISIS) in Raqqa, Syria, which it has pronounced as the capital of its Islamic caliphate.”

    Although I will be classed as a knuckle dragging Neanderthal, I would say you cut off the head of the snake by bombing and flattening the capital of Raqqa. Terrible? Yes! Collateral Damage and massive loss of innocent life? Yes! Roughing of one’s Humanity’s Spirit? Yes! Do I care? Internally, Yes. Externally, Not so much. These are Cancer Cells in a healthy body. Cancer cells cannot be reasoned with, they will simply continue propagating and converting healthy cells until the body is overcome. Until these fanatics are brought to their knees, nothing will change. I don’t know if this would work or not. What I do know is that in the past when those armies have been given their lead to do what armies do, kill people and break things, the time frame for solving “problems” and getting back to normal has been a whole lot quicker i.e. Grant in the Civil War- 4 yrs; the US in WWI- 2 yrs and WWII- 4 years. Where we have bowed to the politicians and been more “Compassionate” we have had Korea- 60 yrs and counting; Vietnam -12 yrs (Lost) and the War on Terror- 15 yrs and counting (losing based on hard facts not wishful Kumbaya thinking.
    And matter of fact: I never see this happening as those in power in the West would just find it beneath their “dignity” and value system to lower themselves to this kind of barbarism. Of course in their Gated communities, private jets and armed security guards, they will never experience the terror of nail bombs going off or the terror of waiting in a room while a crazed Muslim shoots Infidels to please his god. Those experiences are for the “common man”.
    No if I were in charge, I may not succeed in my mission to simply be “left alone in peace” or attempt to return to that peace. But those that had brought death and destruction to my people would not do it again, so lightly. I think the Japanese General had it right as he contemplated Pearl Harbor and the error of not declaring war until after 12/7/41.

    “In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.”

    “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.”

    ―Isoroku Yamamoto

    He was right about Americans in the 1940’s. Would he make that same statement today? Perhaps with the “common folk” because they don’t know any better. But with the Ruling Class and intelligentsia, I think not 🙁

    Our and the World’s loss that we don’t have coarse and rough leaders like were available in the 1940’s but Islam does. 🙁 🙁

    “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf”

  30. MikeII Says:

    Cornhead Says:
    Woolly Bully is right. Go on offense. And for the first one the Belgians catch, chop off his head during prime time.

    I agree in principle. But I would not chop off his head (Too barbaric and coarsening to the person doing the chopping.)

    I would simply have a public hanging but cover him in lard before the hanging. Does anyone think this action would not cause the next Muslim Terrorist to pause before seeking paradise by killing infidels ?

    After-all it was successfully tried in the Philippines in 1904 with a Muslim uprising.

    or the origimal 1904 SA story

  31. Surellin Says:

    Ah, the airport attacks were *outside* security? That’s what Wretchard warned about years ago – blowing up two hundred people in line for the metal detector is easier than blowing up two hundred people in the airplane on the other side of security.

  32. Gossamer Says:

    They are happy to go jihad and martyr themselves because they think they are going to paradise.

    Bury them all with pig parts and they don’t (that’s what THEY believe) – that’ll slow down the volunteers.

  33. Sergey Says:

    Ben Gurion airport in Israel is famous for excellent security. But this security is completely invisible for the passengers. When about year ago I arrived here from Moscow, I have not seen a single security guard or even metal detectors – the only encounter with something reminded security personal happened during passport control deck, when a pretty looking girl asked me several questions about the goal of my visit to Israel and my possible accomodations here. Her Russian was perfect. Probably, I just passed face control, and this was it.
    The same happened in my return flight to Moscow from the same airport: no visible police or security presence, no crowds. Only a rather long line to passport control, so each passenger could be viewed from any angle many times, and a series of questions at the head of the line.

  34. mf Says:

    Advise the populace of the threat and suggest they might want to stay away from these areas until further notice. That should save some but at the cost of possibly comproising intel operations.

  35. Sharon W Says:

    MikeII at 8:35 has said it well. The hard truth. Truth is often unpleasant and demanding.

  36. DNW Says:

    “Bury them all with pig parts and they don’t (that’s what THEY believe) – that’ll slow down the volunteers.”

    I see that suggestion made occasionally. Whether it is made out of exasperation, an intent to mock, or as serious idea probably varies with the writer.

    But what I would like to consider is the probable reaction not of a proven terrorist who contemplates such a fate, but the reaction of a secular – and I emphasize secular – western so-called “liberal”.

    It is at that point that the proposition becomes interesting.

    How many persons who are to all practical intents and purposes atheist materialists who have zero respect for Christianity and no belief in objective truth or intrinsic meaning to life – much less in the soul or an afterlife – would still be “offended” or outraged at the prospect of publicly burying an executed terrorist in a vat of pork fat?

    How exactly does such a “moral sensibility” operate? On the basis of some presumed intrinsic dignity possessed by all humans as part of their natural rights? Well, neither the secular atheist nor the Muslim believe in that concept; though for differing reasons.

    Because it is inhuman? But the Islam itself allows and even recommends torture of enemies; and there can with logical consistency be no such thing as an objective “human” for the nominalist materialist; the category simply does not exist as an objective fact.

    Do they think perhaps it is childish, or counter productive?

    That is an empirical question. It is obviously not childish if it works; and some other reason for objecting must be thought up.

    Possibly some Christians who I have so far excluded from consideration, might say it is wrong because it is inconsistent with “our own” values. But just what value this would be when we talk of immersing a dead man who has just tried to kill us in the name of his murderous faith, in pork fat? His Christian right to have rights he is at war with?

    I don’t know the answer. But as I have stated many times before, it seems that the general thrust of many liberal arguments is that it is simply better overall to give up and die than to fight back in kind, and live.

    And I think that that may be – as I have also stated before – as much a matter of personality and character as actual moral principles and judgment.

  37. Artfldgr Says:

    Richard Aubrey Says: They go to Boko Haram because they like to do that stuff.

    Actually not… there are really only Two reasons they go

    1) Boko Haram plucks the chickens of their feathers, so boko haram people get to eat and not work hard for it, while others work hard and boko haram takes food and such from them. [and they are rewarded with young women]

    2) Boko Haram uses kidnapping to obtain young men who they then “reprogram” much like the cambodians and others did, to then become lifetime soldiers.

    The Islamist militant group Boko Haram kidnapped 40 boys and young men — ages 10 to 23 — from a village in the northeastern Nigerian state of Borno, some of those fleeing said Saturday.
    The terrorists arrived in the village of Malari carrying assault rifles and then preached to them about the group’s extremist ideology before forcibly taking 40 hostages and driving toward the Sambisa forest on December 31, villagers who fled to Maiduguri said.


    Boko Haram kidnapped at least 97 young men and boys in a deadly raid in August in and around the village of Doron Baga, a local leader and residents said. Twenty-eight residents died, and 25 more were injured in that raid, according to residents.

    they are basically applying the techniques of Mao before Mao was ruler of the chinese.

    Mao’s rule of the chinese nation started October 1, 1949, but his campaigns of terror started WAY before that.

    He had some not so good experiences around 1919 or so in relation to his work as a teacher, protests, etc… i believe that was just around japanese treaties and occupation and the rise of sun yat sen… the father of modern china. [dont forget the french, the same people that started the conflict in vietnam, and left the US holding the bag]

    Chen Duxiu and Li Dazhao created the first communist party in 1921 or so, i think in beijing… but not sure. Mao set up a branch of this in Changsha.

    the real bad stuff started after they linked up with the Kuomintang.. as sun yat sen died… that left the left of the KMT to mao and others, and Chiang Kai-shek the other side. Both worked together to overthrow beijing, and once that was done, the rest, as they say is history as Mao started learning and acting brutally under the idea of cleansing the bullies (sound famliar?)

    factions fought factions and mao ran the peasants, and had to defeat the communists and others eventually

    but it was in this peasant army that mao created the ideas of how to gain rule, how to get troops, and more. which parallels the stuff happening with boko harams techniques, which were also copied by the vietnamese, the cambodians, etc.

    here is the deal: THIS is why Genocide existed before the holocaust… we dont make distinctions much but the real distinction of the holocaust that changed things was that the jews were not an army of others attacking that would not stop, combine, make peace, and so had to be exterminated to halt the spread and self destruction.

    so when the hutus and the watutsis tribes fought, they exterminted the losers (kept the women – which is why womens morals are more “fluid” than mens, its an adaptation to having to switch to survive over history – resistance and inability to do that led to death. the men are more solid on morals as this genetic pressure and outcome didnt exist for them)

    up until WWII and the Shoa, these genoicedes were defensive, not offensive, nor part of creating a tuned administrative state for the sake of power, and falsely promiing the people a utopia if you gave away that power.

    today all genocide is off the table being made equivalent to the shoa, when the others from pre roman times were more defensive (you didnt want anyone to grow back and repeat the history)

    why? well, be aware that the left and the socilaists know this, and so, by equating ALL genoicide as being the shoa, and not defensive, they removed the only solution that works between conflicted states, and so, insured that no matter how many times they failed, they would ahve more chances forever till they succeeded.

    this does not mean i am making advocacy, i am explaining the history and the changes and why..

    im a nobody… and my understanding and knowlege has no bearing on much of any reality… heck, i am mostly erased, half in the grave and waiting to die given that my employer has deemd me to never earn beyond entry level and smear me, and exterminate the family my wife and i wanted… despite my 35 years career. they get senior level work for entry level prices, and my aspergers keeps me trapped.

    so please dont get angry at me for stating the history, the reasons, and so on. i dont make policy. i just learn, observe, and soon, hopefully, will be dead.

  38. DNW Says:

    Sloppy job above, missing words etc.

    Especially, read this

    “But just what value this would be “,


    ” But just what value would this be when …”

  39. Artfldgr Says:

    Sorry, i am at work and dont have time to proofread as i shouldnt comment except the short time i have a tiny break… i dont get breaks… i dont get to eat lunch… just work work work… at entry level 20% below market, doing senior level work… (im the wrong color to do anything about it)

    American Univ. profs: saying ‘all lives matter’ is ‘white supremacy’

    show me the way to the ovens as i am tired of being slowly exterminated and watching my wife suffer

    on another note:
    POSSIBLE – active shooter situation with two shooters at Ft. Gordon, Augusta Georgia, during an “exercise” which has now been canceled.

  40. Lizzy Says:

    I have to agree with others who have said that it is best to go on the offense. It’s like the difference between attempting to stop the spread of Ebola after you’ve let a traveler from an Ebola-infected country board a plan, land in America, and then wander around for a few days before he checks into the hospital. That is not the time to stop the spread, it should have been stopped by never letting him enter the country. Same goes for stopping an airport bombing after allowing open borders, no-go zones, hate-spewing Imams preaching jihad in local mosques, and letting known suspects wander out of view.

    Stop immigration and refugee resettlement from these countries (they can go to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc), strike Raqqa and other jihadi sources, shut down their social media, and make their captives here disappear while spreading rumors that they’re being held at a pig farm for questioning.

  41. brdavis9 Says:

    Totally OT …don’t read, I just need to air this viz my “animus” comment in an earlier thread:

    First, Hot Air goes to Facebook commenting. I quit my at least twice-daily, and usually more, HA visits (which I read more for the commenting than the posts anyways: and I could see the handwriting on the wall when political, at least, comments are no longer protected by anonymity). I didn’t quit because of political disagreements.

    Now, today – this morning, a few minutes ago – this at Ace, by Ace: “Personally, I’m out. I will never defend this guy nor vote for him. I’ll actually vote for Hillary Clinton, if I vote at all.


    (Note: Ace has changed that post three times since I commented with “???” – about the 7th comment, so “within seconds” of the original post – earlier. Each iteration, is pretty much worse – regardless of whether you’re inclined to agree or not – than the previous.)

    I’ve been reading Ace from the beginning. I was a constant commenter in the early years (heck, I had back-and-forths with Allahpundit when he was a regular there). Ace’s writing was always witty, pert, and pertinent. And impertinent lol. Lovely stuff.

    But this? – This is just …sad.

    Ace’s recent online behaviour is starting to remind me of CJ’s meltdown on LGF (another blog I was an active commenter on from its beginning). Jeezus. It’s just politics. Not everyone is going to agree, or be civil. Some people are morons (and not the good, vodka-drinking kind). Deal.

    “???” indeed.

    Neo’s blog was the latest in that early group (so many others simply went offline, or the single usually brilliant blogger passed), and – now, after this morning – is the last one standing from that period.

    Congrat’s neo: you’re now Eldest, and – so far, at least – the last remaining bastion of rational discourse and generally “polite disagreements” comportment. Kudos. Pray continue. Live long. Prosper.

    …this season is simply not like others.

    50 years I’ve been politically aware, and active for 45 years …and actively commenting since way before the world wide web (anyone else still recall the Prodigy community in the dial-up days …and there were trolls and flame-wars then, too: it’s not exactly a recent phenomena) and this is …simply madness.

  42. Richard Aubrey Says:

    Woops. My bad. Boko Haram recruits from the Hausa tribe. Which, if they wanted, could end the practice, there being a thousand times as many of them. Boko Haram’s activities are so similar to those of other violent forces in Africa that it must be said the perps find it a kind of recreation. As Ralph Peters said, if you like–list of atrocities–Isis is like the best summer camp ever. Ditto B. H.
    So how do you stop them? Can’t ask the question or describe the problem because the only answer is unimaginably severe and we can avoid it by insisting the problem is a few rogues.

  43. neo-neocon Says:


    This was my reaction to Trump’s Muslim ban proposal at the time he made it.

    Also, you might want to take note of the fact that he’s recently walked back that proposal.

  44. Richard Saunders Says:

    The military history of the last 150 years shows that wars cannot end successfully if the civilian population is not made an object of the conflict — had Sherman not marched through Georgia, the Civil War would have gone on for many more years; the German population was largely not subject to the horrors of World War I; the Japanese military was prepared to fight on forever, only the destruction of Hiroshima AND Nagasaki did the Emperor (against an attempted coup by the military) surrender; we did not bomb Hanoi or other population centers in North Vietnam, and so forth.

    This isn’t the era of the Napoleonic Wars, where two armies could meet on a field, battle, and all would agree that the winner determined the outcome without further ado. It’s unfortunate that SOME innocent civilians will suffer, but that’s the only way to end this. My Latin is not so good, but —

    Raqqa delenda est! ISIS delenda est! Militant Islam delenda est!

    P.S. I just sent an e-mail to the President with Neo’s question: “Why is Raqqa still standing?” Maybe if everybody in the country — no, everybody in the civilized world, sent that to The One-derboy, something might get through. (Probably not, but one can always hope.)

  45. Lizzy Says:

    Well, we know Hillary’s priorities on this: give speech that essentially says she’d do more of Obama’s approach and then promptly meets with Muslim leaders.

    What, she didn’t have any friends at Belgium’s embassy in DC she could meet with to share our condolences & discuss our support in these times of trouble?

    So predictable, yest still upsetting.

  46. OM Says:

    Richard Saunders:
    Regarding your thoughts on WWI and the German population. The naval blockade was bringing the Germany close to starvation by 1918. I assume you consider WWII a continuation of WWI? Totalitarian states have a remarkable indifference to suffering of their people.

  47. Irene Says:

    Any country like Belgium that prohibits police raids between 9 p.m. and 5 a.m. is finished. There’s no point arguing what they could/should have done because they never would have done it..

  48. MikeII Says:

    “P.S. I just sent an e-mail to the President with Neo’s question: “Why is Raqqa still standing?” Maybe if everybody in the country — no, everybody in the civilized world, sent that to The One-derboy, something might get through. (Probably not, but one can always hope.)”

    Surely you jest!

    In the last 8 years of Obummer’s Presidency and even before looking at his past and current friends, when has this little Napoleon cared about anything other than his own self importance and deluded views.

    I read somewhere that when Hitler was told of the massive casualties at Stalingrad.
    His response was – “So, that is what soldiers are for.”

    A long time ago, Scott Peck wrote a book “The People of the Lie.”
    It talked about Evil people in the world.
    In trying to remember the correct title, I ran across this book review that has some quotes and was a cliff notes version.

    Do any of you think Obama or Hillary give a damn about anything other than their self importance or their ideology?

    Send all the letters you want, all it will get you is a visit from the Gestapo, excuse me I mean the IRS 🙁

  49. MikeII Says:

    In case you wondered about Richard Saunders quote above:

    Raqqa delenda est! ISIS delenda est! Militant Islam delenda est!

    Raqqa be destroyed! ISIS destroyed! Militant Islam must be destroyed!

  50. JuliB Says:

    I’m surprised that this didn’t happen earlier. I fly a lot for work and remember the first time I flew after 9/11. Was at O’Hare – people everywhere in the ticket area, out the door, down the ‘street’, waiting in line. These lines were snaking back and forth. If I had planned terrorism, I would have just set off some smoke bombs and fire crackers in the ticketing area. The resulting stampede would have injured dozens. That would have been an effective use of ‘terror’.

    Obviously, we can’t stop all immigration from islamic countries, but we can certainly keep a large percentage of them out.

    I agree with those above who mentioned going on the offense, although I have no suggestions as to what would be most effective.

  51. jack Says:

    10 years ago a nice young muslim woman asked … when will this stop? I told her not in my lifetime. Now I’m sure not in her lifetime. Hopefully her yet to be born children will see an end to islamic terrorism … but I doubt it.

    Why? Because this has been going on for 100’s of years.

    Better question would … why would it stop?

  52. blert Says:

    OM Says:
    March 24th, 2016 at 2:23 pm

    Richard Saunders:
    Regarding your thoughts on WWI and the German population. The naval blockade was bringing the Germany close to starvation by 1918. I assume you consider WWII a continuation of WWI? Totalitarian states have a remarkable indifference to suffering of their people.


    This popularly reported conclusion is pure British propaganda — from back in the day — uttered to make the Royal Navy proud.

    It’s simply not true.

    The reason for the dire distress of Imperial Germany was SPANISH FLU.

    It was killing millions behind the lines… millions of farmers.

    Imperial Germany had already defeated the Russian Empire — and was in possession of VAST wheat fields, thereby. (Ukraine + Poland )

    As ever, Wiki botches it.

    The pandemic was already rolling in 1917, not 1918.

    It’s what triggered the mass surrenders in ’18. ( Sgt. York et. al. )

    In the film, the Germans all look fine and healthy. Whereas they were in ill health — and wholly demoralized — as their unit had been nearly wiped out by Spanish flu — like it was the wrath of God.

  53. OM Says:


    History has it’s uses. Thanks for the info.

  54. OM Says:


    Propaganda for the Royal Navy aside.

    Other scholarship regarding the British blockade of Imperial Germany

    It seems that effects on the population of Germany were present before the Spanish Flu pandemic.

  55. blert Says:

    This analysis is GROSSLY flawed.

    1) The populations in the Napoleonic era suffered massive deprivations due to the fact that Napoleon supported his armies — wherever they went — at the expense of the local population.

    In Spain, Napoleon is credited with murdering 1,000,000 Spaniards — virtually all of them civilians.

    Similar ‘successes’ occurred from Italy, Germany, Austria, Poland and Russia. What a guy.


    The German civilians of WWI suffered staggering losses by way of Spanish flu. These sufferings triggered the end of WWI — most directly.

    They also figure HUGE in the Russian revolution. Spanish flu was running WILD throughout the German and Russian Imperial battle fleets… while the crews were in their shore side barracks.

    All of the above ugly realities were CENSORED by the combatants — to include France, USA, and Britain — hence its name Spanish flu.

    The only nation willing to spill the beans was SPAIN. Yet Spain was virtually last on the list of afflicted nations.

    The above realities explains why EVERY single video history of WWI is a screwed up — a lie.

    Spanish flu went on to kill, and kill, and kill. It’s the underlying dynamic in the Polish-Soviet war and the Russian civil war.

    It’s alluded to in Doctor Zhivago… the sick and dying of that film are overwhelmingly victims of Spanish flu… which killed off most doctors I ought to add.


    Sherman cut the Confederacy in two BY taking Atlanta.

    The actual march to the sea had nothing to do with that.

    Counter-intuitive, I know, but you must understand that Sherman’s army was little more than a corps. No way was he able to station a blocking force from the city to the sea.

    Instead, he marched — Napoleon style — with a body of men — tearing up and ruining the rail net — racing the clock to get to supplies only available if he reached the Atlantic coast.

    You must trust me on this: Sherman was hyper stressed that his boys would not be able to take the last Confederate fort sitting astride his route to the port.

    All prior battles ( see “Glory” ) had been fiascos of blood… and Union defeats.

    However, Sherman lucked out. The fort was so oriented towards the sea and the harbor that it had virtually no defenses against a landward attack. Sherman’s troops took it with the first sally.

    Behind them, Sherman’s army left no Union military formations.

    One could still walk straight across Georgia from Alabama.

    You just couldn’t use the rail road system.

    Sherman never even attempted to permanently occupy Atlanta.

    His entire strategy was economic attack at the strategic level. It worked wonders.

  56. blert Says:

    OM Says:
    March 24th, 2016 at 11:16 pm

    That’s MORE Royal Navy self flattery.

    During WWII the USAAF claimed astounding numbers of downed Luftwaffe defense aircraft… per bomber gunner accounts.

    After the war these figures were deflated to 8% of war time estimates.

    The Patriot missile system was regarded — circa 1991 — as a brilliantly effective counter missile to the scuds.

    Much later, those results were deflated to ZERO.

    German food deprivation was massively alleviated by conquering Ukraine and eastern Poland — ceded by the new Soviet government.

    The British propaganda arm never brings that up.

    Victory in the east meant that the Royal Navy’s blockage was for nought.

    The Soviets had — and would sell — the Kaiser anything he needed… for Lenin was even broker than the Kaiser.

    Those are the plain facts.

    Most Western accounts of WWI magically skip over the Soviet peace treaty — and the food provisions owed to Imperial Germany.

    Lenin GAVE UP Ukraine.

    Hence the need to fight anew after the Kaiser was defeated by the West.

    Lenin also gave up Finland, and the three Baltic states.

    All four nations had been inside the Russian Empire.

    Stalin was directly involved with reversing this flow of history… starting with re-conquering Ukraine and hunks of Poland. He was the political commissar attached to the Soviet army involved. This was his first opportunity to prove that his judgement was always flawed, always wrong.

    He was paranoid WRT Ukraine to the end of his days.

  57. Richard Saunders Says:

    Blert — I’m not following you. Having studied German literature, in particular Germany’s most widely-read interwar novelist, Eric Maria Remarque, (Im Westen Nicht Neues, Drei Kameraden) I don’t recall any indication that the German civilian population felt that the Spanish flu was a result of the war.

    As to Nappy, the Spanish fought a guerilla war against him, so naturally the civilian population was affected, but (again I’m going by recollection), other civilian populations didn’t seem all that affected — see Wellington’s famous ball on the eve of Waterloo.

    But as to Sherman’s March, you seem to be agreeing with me that it was an “economic attack at the strategic level.” Please clarify.

  58. Richard Aubrey Says:

    V. D. Hanson likens Sherman’s march to the ultimate defeat of the Spartans. The bold Southron cavaliers ran away or hid, in front of their women and slaves. Sherman managed not to fight.
    As to disease, see Zinnser’s “Rats, Lice, and History”. It reads with an overtone of not-quite-getting it until you discover the timing of the book; just before the introduction of penicillin.

  59. Artfldgr Says:

    McCarthy discovered that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman was no imposter-imam, but “a globally renowned scholar — a doctor of Islamic jurisprudence who graduated from al-Azhar University in Cairo, the seat of Sunni Islamic learning for over a millennium.”

    Seeking to expose the sheikh as a fraud who had led his gullible followers into terrorism, against the tenets of their faith, McCarthy discovered that “Abdel Rahman was not lying about Islam.”

    “When he said the scriptures command that Muslims strike terror into the hearts of Islam’s enemies, the scriptures backed him up. When he said Allah enjoined all Muslims to wage jihad until Islamic law was established throughout the world, the scriptures backed him up.”

    “[T]he Blind Sheikh’s summons to Islam was rooted in a coherent interpretation of Islamic doctrine. He was not perverting Islam,” writes McCarthy in the Hillsdale College letter Imprimis. McCarthy goes on:

    “Islam is not a religion of peace. … Verses such as ‘Fight those who believe not in Allah,’ and ‘Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war’ are not peaceful injunctions….”

    In its formative first century, Islam conquered the Middle and Near East, North Africa and Spain with sword and slaughter, not persuasion and conversion.

  60. Artfldgr Says:

    Lenin also gave up Finland, and the three Baltic states.

    All four nations had been inside the Russian Empire.

    your wrong on this one Blert… My family is from the baltic states…

    1914 1 August World War I: The war began.

    1918 18 November An independent Latvia was proclaimed.

    1920 11 August The Latvian–Soviet Peace Treaty was signed.

    1921 22 September Latvia became a member of the League of Nations.

    1922 February A Latvian constitution was adopted.

    1934 15 May Prime Minister Kārlis Ulmanis took power in a bloodless coup d’état.

    1939 23 August The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was signed between the Soviet Union (USSR) and Nazi Germany.

    And after 8 peace treaties
    1940 16 June An ultimatum was presented by the USSR to Latvia.

    17 June Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940: Soviet troops occupied the country.

    5 August Latvia was incorporated into the Soviet Union, becoming the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic (SSR).

    Latvia was NOT part of russia until WWII…

    HOWEVER, latvians from the red rifle corps were the troops that kept out Germany and other nations from russia and handed it over to Lennin. they were heroes and to be celebrated forever. when stalin came, forever was over, and he executed them

    stalin did what they are doing to the US and other places slowly with islam and immigrants

    1941 13 June The first mass deportations of Latvians to various sites in the Soviet Union began.

    after shipping out nearly a third of the population in cattle cars to the taiga (i recommended Dear God i wanted to live – as an alternative to Anne Franke, but neo never bothered to read it despite lots of anne frank stuff)

    within a month of the first mass deportations, the germans moved in and chased the soviets out.

    then they took up german arms as within four years the communists were comming back

    1944 October Occupation of Latvia by Soviet Union 1944-1945: The Soviet army reentered Riga.

    the soldiers were divided and killed outright as traitors to stalin, the US recognized latvian waffen SS as not being part of the nazi machine, they were given special dispensation, and became the guards at the neuremburg trials… taking up their old jobs as guardians… they guarded the caliphate in turkey too (for hire)

    notice the dates on the rest, as it was also part of the work of the singing war from estonia… and BATUN, which ultimately helped them regain freedom

    1981 The modern Vanšu Bridge was opened across the Daugava River in Riga.
    1987 14 June The first demonstration in Riga to commemorate the 1941 deportations took place.
    1988 23 August Mass demonstrations took place against the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

    1990 4 May The Latvian SSR Supreme Council adopted the declaration On the Restoration of Independence of the Republic of Latvia.

    1991 January The Barricades: Pro-Communist political forces attempted to restore Soviet power in Latvia.

    6 September The Soviet Union recognized Latvian independence.

    17 September Latvia became a member of the United Nations.

  61. OM Says:


    “During WWII the USAAF claimed astounding numbers of downed Luftwaffe defense aircraft… per bomber gunner accounts.” Yes and ground attack air craft claimed far more tanks destroyed in France (Falise Gap) than later analysis substantiated. Fog of War. And in fact until the P-51 arrived to escort the daylight bombers the Luftwaffe was not beaten. Gunner’s claims to the contrary. Fortunately for the Allies escort fighters saved the bombrs and allowed them to take it to the final effect, i.e,, no fuel for tanks, planes……

  62. Richard Aubrey Says:

    Couple of lines from “Command Decision”
    “Two I was shooting at came apart. But every nose gunner and top turret in the element was shooting at them.”

    Likely every top turret and nose gunner in the element claimed them.
    There should be no implication of dishonesty on the part of the shooters. High command….

About Me

Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.

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