Home » More on the Turkish coup attempt—“democracy” at any price?

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More on the Turkish coup attempt—“democracy” at any price? — 25 Comments

  1. I wonder what he thinks of this as it’s an related nowA French government committee has heard testimony, suppressed by the French government at the time and not published online until [last] week, that the killers in the Bataclan appear to have tortured their victims on the second floor of the club.

    The chief police witness in Parliament testified that on the night of the attacks, an investigating officer, tears streaming down his face, rushed out of the Bataclan and vomited in front of him just after seeing the disfigured bodies. …

    According to this testimony, Wahhabist killers reportedly gouged out eyes, castrated victims, and shoved their testicles in their mouths. They may also have disemboweled some poor souls. Women were reportedly stabbed in the genitals — and the torture was, victims told police, filmed for Daesh or Islamic State propaganda. For that reason, medics did not release the bodies of torture victims to the families, investigators said.

  2. artfldgr:

    I assume if it happened he’d condemn it, so I’m not sure why you’re asking the question.

    As for the charges themselves, it’s not at all clear those aren’t just rumors.

    I’ve read several articles pro and con (including, for example, this). I also find it odd that none of the survivors—and there were many—are speaking out now about it.

    However, no one who is familiar with past terrorist attacks would be surprised had it happened (as I pointed out when writing about the Luxor attack, during which some atrocities occurred in addition to the murders).

  3. Neo…

    ISIS has been engaged in feral warfare — at every turn of the screw — so anyone that’s in their camp would feel ‘liberated’ to do likewise.

    Officialdom – from Luxor to Paris — has EVERY reason to lie about these atrocities — as terrifying future tourists is EXACTLY why the mutilations were inflicted in the first place.

    It’s not as if the party-goers had double-top secret information.

    This is sadism for the sake of cruelty and blood lust — no different than that inflicted by the SS in the camps.

    In Eike’s ‘philosophy’ it was not enough to murder out-grouped enemies of Hitler — every victim had to be scourged.

    Hence, the vicious barbed-wire ‘beds’ seen at Dachau.

    The proper term for such feral fighters is PIRATES — universal enemies of civilized man.

    By their own sins they ought to be paid.

  4. Been following the news stories out of Japan?

    Heh, “out of Japan”? That’s like thinking CNN is getting American life and politics out of America.

    Half of what you hear about foreign countries has been mistranslated and propagandized, so that fools can fall for it. Just as they do for the rest of the Left’s propaganda.

  5. Turkey’s majority never stopped being Islamic. While tragic, is Turkey’s fall really a surprise? Erdogan could do nothing without the support he enjoys.

    “No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.” Winston Churchill

  6. Typo in 14th paragraph, 2nd sentence:

    “I agree with him on the problem with supporting democracy so matter what it looks like; … ”

    Make “so” into “no.”

    Noticing this kind of thing is one of my many flaws.

  7. Erdogan needs to play these cards to increase his power. Not all Turks are Islamists or even strict followers of Islam. Drinking is accepted (there is an interpretation that only drunkenness is forbidden by islam), women are unveiled and their hair is out, and people just want the economy moving again. When I was in Istanbul, a business associate pointed out how the practice of building a mosque as a gesture by the rich was wasted charity when other things are needed. The manager at the hotel asked me how I was enjoying my visit the told me there were “too many Arab Tourists”. He then gestured to a couple at restaurant with the wife eating in her burka.

    The old ottoman empire included the balkans and much of greece. Without Saudi funded preaching, much of this area would be calmer and more modern

  8. Ymarsakar – I’m sure it is distorted. But nobody proposes changes without a reason, and for some reason Abe’s side wants to exempt the Emperor from the Constitution. I can’t think of a health reason for that. Or for limiting freedom of the press.

    GB – The problem in Turkey is that the rural, religious population has been growing while the urban secularists haven’t been. And then, of course, the rural population has been moving to the cities.

  9. But nobody proposes changes without a reason, and for some reason Abe’s side wants to exempt the Emperor from the Constitution. I can’t think of a health reason for that. Or for limiting freedom of the press.

    And you know this because you read the Japanese draft of their new constitution?

    If you got it from your English sources over at NRO, they “translated” it the way they “interpreted” Hussein Obola’s healthcare bill.

    Of course there’s a reason, but since I knew about the Japanese trend away from pacifism from around 2008, no reason for me to repeat myself.

    http://grimbeorn.blogspot.com/2016/07/red-sun-rising.html

    As for democracy as the topic, democracy is a poison. Too much of it and you end up as dictatorship, oligarchy, totalitarian regime, or something in between.

    The Founding Father’s supposed “necessary evil” of government was the Republic which they gave as a government to the American people, colonists now independent. Now if the Republic is the necessary and lesser evil, then democracy would be the greater evil and the unnecessary one.

  10. ErdoÄŸan has taken control of one institution after another, even in the two years since he became president, a constitutionally and historically non-political position.

    Evil has shown itself to have an interesting power. The same as obtained by the Leftist alliance. The ability to hijack, not create, human institutions for the purpose of destruction or to wage war against humanity itself.

    While political intrigues are old hat for Constantinople and Greeks, what people should take note of is how very close in power mad megalomania methodology the Leftist alliance and their Islamic slave lord allies really are. They aren’t quite as incompatible as your Democrat friends and friendly social journalist media has led you all to believe.

  11. The Ottoman Empire, I would remind people, was the last Sunni Caliphate.

    Call for Jihad[edit]
    Though the Young Turks had compelled the Sultan in his capacity as the Caliph to declare a jihad urging all Muslims to resist Allied encroachment on their lands, the effort was largely unsuccessful. The Young Turk government resigned en masse and Enver, Talat, and Cemal fled Turkey aboard a German warship. Sultan Mehmed VI, who was proclaimed Sultan after his brother Mehmed V died of a heart attack in July, agreed to an armistice. The Armistice of Mudros formalizing Ottoman surrender was signed aboard a British warship on October 30, 1918. Allied troops arrived in Constantinople and occupied the Sultan’s palace shortly thereafter.

    The “Young Turks”, also known as the youtube channel full of Leftist apparatchiks and propagandists.

    The “Ottomans” require a historical explanation, Osman being one of those raiding steppe warlords that came in and took over some weakened dynasties, at the same time that Byzantine greeks and Armenians had been weakened by centuries of slave raiding from Islam. Can’t reproduce your warriors if all your women virgins get stolen for the sultan’s harem, you know.

    Documentation of the early history of the Ottomans is scarce. According to semilegendary accounts, Estugrul, khan of the Kayi tribe of the Oguz Turks, fled from Persia in the mid-thirteenth century to escape the Mongol hordes and took service with the sultan of Rum at the head of a gazi force numbering “400 tents.” He was granted territory–if he could seize and hold it–in Bithynia, facing the Byzantine strongholds at Bursa, Nicomedia (Izmit), and Nicaea. Leadership subsequently passed to Estugrul’s son, Osman I (reigned ca. 1299-1326), the eponymous founder of the Osmanli dynasty–better known in the West as the Ottomans– that was to endure for 600 years.

    Osman I’s small amirate attracted gazis–who required plunder from new conquests to maintain their way of life–from other amirates, siphoning off their strength while giving the Ottoman state a military stature that was out of proportion to its size.

    http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Turkey2.html

    All of this was backed by Islam, of course. While steppe tribes always raided, they needed the wisdom of Islamic peace/jihad hybrid stability to become constituted as a state or kingdom.

    The Janissaries were slaves, usually boys from Christian houses that couldn’t pay the Jizya in coin. Lovely thing, that Jizya, from the pov of an Islamic conqueror.

  12. Too many commenters in the Internet forget that our country has the rule of law to protect their rights under the Constitution as they cry out to punish, in some form, those they disagree with outside of the rule of law. So sad.

  13. the German government had another weakness–under its constitution, it was relatively easy to suspend civil liberties and establish a dictatorship. This did not even require the vote of its people, merely a two-thirds majority of its legislature. – Daniel Pipes

    Well, the US has a similar kind of weakness… Which i have brought up before, and has taken a long while to build brick by brick with Obama adjusting the capstones. / Its also why so many globalists in the know are so afraid of Donald in case he gets to activate what they put together, and not their choice.

    The collection of Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years, with tweaks and such slowly added over time… Like moves on a chess board over time.

    together, in a time of turmoil or financial crisis, the state can convert us into a full born communist system under federal control, with congress neutralized for six months, the department of justice empowered to enforce it, and they go so far as to make a council (a soviet in Russian), to over see everything, and control salaries, work, credit, and on and on…

    the pish tosh basically amounts to the fact that none of them directly create the ability to suspend the constitution (which actually is someplace else not in executive orders) and that these go back before truman, but again, have been slowly updated year by year..

    there are also literally thousands of unconstitutional laws on the books that are not used due to prosecutorial discretion, which kind of hides them. but the minute conditions change, discretion can change, and voila, a whole big set of enforceable laws without any time needed to make or put them in place as they are already there, just kind of turned off. [there is a name for these laws i used once here but cant remember it]

  14. The main difference between democracy and all other forms of government is the inclusion of a legal opposition in the political system. All other forms of government ignore or exclude the minorities with different views. The real essence of democracy is not the rule of the majority, a feature which sometimes even autocracies share, but the legal possibility of a minotity to challenge the rulers in the public sphere.

    Erdogan may be elected by a majority and could possibly even get a higher vote in the next election, but he is no democrat as long as he purges the opposition, the press and other political movements. In no other country are more journalists behind bars than in Turkey.

    And the mob in the streets makes Erdogan especially dangerous, because fierce rethorical speeches could be more intimidating than new laws.

  15. Pipes elides that South Korea’s long, bumpy, post-WW2, post-Japan development has been constantly affected by the sustained and evolving US peace operations with the ROK.

    Religion is an easy answer and significant, but applying it as a ‘unified theory’ is a cop out. The development of liberal democracy there, too, comes down to political science.

  16. blert:
    “Zodac you are conflating Republic with Democracy.”

    You’re both right. There’s the technical distinction. But in policy discussion, “democracy” usually is understood to include the “guarantees of liberty and the rule of a law that protects individual liberty”.

  17. Turkish lawmakers set to give Erdogan sweeping new powers
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_TURKEY_MILITARY_COUP?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-07-21-09-03-49

    Turkey to suspend European rights convention
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-suspend-european-rights-convention-state-emergency-005317508.html?ref=gs

    and so such referencdums and things mean nothing because you can suspend hem when you dont want them, and replace them when you do.

    its like a law saying its illegal to murder, flip a swih calles suspension, kill someone, and turn the switch again.

    As for korea!!!
    Mystery Numbers in North Korea Broadcasts Carry Cold War Echoes
    http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/07/20/mystery-numbers-n-korea-broadcasts-carry-cold-war-echoes.html

    and i ahve broght this up before here a neoneocons:
    Lee Harris, prognosticator
    http://neoneocon.com/2015/10/15/lee-harris-prognosticator/#comment-929783
    I brough up SKYKING, and that one of the most famous of these number stations is the lincolnshire poacher

    On SKYKING (8992 or 11175 kHz USB) a call sign called “COLLAPSE” which has not been heard since 2001 has just broadcasted 4 messages to numbered stations/units in the last few minutes

    “FUXEBOX” and “Reykjavik,” have also broadcast in the last few days and they haven’t been heard since 1991 (collapse of the Soviet Union).

    “COLLAPSE” has sent 3 messages in the last few minutes.
    1) QSWOR2 QSWOR2YQ4PZNWNO56KOPHGWWZEK64S
    2) QSSFB7M3ZF2G6UGRF4KJSAIK7WWTFP
    3) QSHF5J QSHF5JO2CTJBNQ4KJVF6KPNJOGZI60

    Message Four from “FLATTOP!” (ANOTHER STATION NOT HEARD IN YEARS!): QSXD5OFPUOAWOHSKF7QBAX4GF5VRFK

    “Atencié³n” station or the “Russian Man” are two other stations

    the post was to ask because these stations suddenly fired up again, and they are used by all sides to communicate to sleepers/underground in other countries. One of the most famous, thanks to the movie “The Longest Day” was the Radio Londres… [there was also Radio Belgique]

    Shortly before the D-Day landings of 6 June 1944, Radio Londres broadcast the first stanza of Paul Verlaine’s poem “Chanson d’automne” to let the resistance know that the invasion would begin within 24 hours

    “wound my heart with a monotonous languor” was the specific call to action

    the background is to clue you all in on why people might be concerned as to such things, but also note, one can just fire up a radio, and send a stream of nothing to no one and get similar reaction since no one knows the validty of the transmission, or if there is a reciever, etc. But take it seriously as you would a ISIS threat..

    If you want to hear an example of this, you can go to Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnXPqUU6fI0
    1_06: The Lincolnshire Poacher

    [by the way, firedepartments use a similar concept with their plectron radios… a series of signals which translate to each station, you get used to listening to the one that is yours to respond, and ignore the others]

  18. Eric Says: blert: “Zodac you are conflating Republic with Democracy.”

    You’re both right. There’s the technical distinction. But in policy discussion, “democracy” usually is understood to include the “guarantees of liberty and the rule of a law that protects individual liberty”.

    Democracy has none of that, its mob rule…
    your confused…
    there are no guarantees of liberty in mob rule

    your confusing Democratic, with democracy
    so we are a democratic republic
    ie. mob rules on who runs things temporarily

  19. Democratic socialism. The Left tends to redefine terms and when you go along with that, you contribute to the decay in this world.

    Same way the Left calls Hussein the Lightbringer and Messiah.

  20. Claire Berlinski has another post up at Ricochet about events in Turkey. According to the friend she interviewed, a large percentage of Turks are pretty happy with the secular country, but the different parties can’t come together to beat Erdogan.

    Erdogan is also pushing things in Germany. I don’t think Merkel will give too much despite needing his help with the refugees.

  21. How does this apply to the attempts to spread democracy to a country such as Iraq?

    this should to be asked with every US Officials who worked in CPA from Paul Bremer to the rest spaciously Islamic Democracy champion Noah Freeman.

    All the gangs who came were promoted/supported by US from the start same guys still in power and they are most corrupted sick guys on the planet…..US have handed them Iraq why?

    Leav it to you imaginations.

  22. US have handed them Iraq why?

    Your Democrat friends and boy Hussein handed them Iraq.

    How does this apply to the attempts to spread democracy to a country such as Iraq?

    It doesn’t. Democracy is a poison, and if you spread it to Iraq, they will be weakened, which was part of the point of infecting Islam with democracy.

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