July 1st, 2017

Caroline Glick on Trump, Israel, and America’s secular Jews

Caroline Glick has some good news about the Trump administration, and some sobering news about the leaching away of America’s Jews from any sort of meaningful Judaism:

Earlier this month Norway, Denmark and Switzerland did something surprising.

Norway announced that it was demanding the return of its money from the Palestinian Human Rights and Humanitarian Law Secretariat, for the latter’s funding of a Palestinian women’s group that built a youth center near Nablus named for PLO mass murderer Dalal Mughrabi.

Denmark followed, announcing it was cutting off all funding to the group.

And last week, the Swiss parliament passed a resolution directing the government to amend Swiss law to block funding of NGOs “involved in racist, antisemitic or hate incitement actions.”

For years, the Israeli government has been urging these and other European governments to stop funding such groups, to no avail. What explains their abrupt change of heart? In two words: Donald Trump.

For years, the Obama administration quietly encouraged the Europeans to fund these groups and to ratchet up their anti-Israel positions. Doing so, the former administration believed, would coerce Israel to make concessions to the PLO.

But now, Trump and his advisers are delivering the opposite message. And, as the actions by Denmark, Norway and Switzerland show, the new message is beginning to be received.

I’m not sure of the exact details of that “message”—does it involve persuasion, rewards, or threats, or just leading by example?—but I think an utterly different tone is being set now regarding Israel.

But here’s what Glick has to say about the position of the American secular Jewish population on the subject of the anti-Israeli BDS campaign:

When Israelis think about the BDS movement, they tend to think that the American Jewish community is the place to turn for assistance.

This is not merely incorrect.

As two studies published in the last few weeks show, the notion that Israel can look to the American Jewish community for help with anything is becoming increasingly dubious.

To be sure, there are several American Jewish groups that devote massive resources to combating BDS on campuses. But their actions are tactical…

On a strategic level, the effective moves made to date against BDS have been initiated by Republicans.

Alan Clemmons, the South Carolina lawmaker who initiated the anti-BDS bill in his statehouse and has since gone on to spearhead the state government anti-BDS drive nationally, is a Christian Zionist.

Glick goes on to say that, although there are certainly Jewish organizations fighting BDS, the main political thrust against the movement is at the hands of the Republican Party. Also, most secular Jews (that’s the majority of younger Jews in the US) are far more leftist than they are Jewish.

That latter point is one I’ve made many time on the blog: when people talk about “Jews” in this country, they often lump together the religious Jews and the vast number of Jews who are JINOs or cultural Jews only. It’s the religious Jews who are far more likely to support the Republican Party than the secular Jews are, although interestingly enough Donald Trump received the votes of about a quarter of self-identified Jewish voters in 2016 (24%)—somehwat more than Bush’s 19% in 2000 and McCain’s 21% in 2008, similar to Bush’s 25% in 2004, and significantly less than Romney’s recent high of 30% in 2012. These statistics certainly don’t indicate an increased turning away from the GOP for Jews in recent years (that is, if you believe polls these days); on the contrary, there’s been a slight increase during the past two elections as compared to 2000 and 2008.

I can’t find recent polls on the subject of Jewish approval of Trump, but this article from March indicates that at least at that point Jewish approval of Trump was at 31%. That’s low, but it’s higher than the number who voted for him, and indicates increased approval rather than decreased. What’s more, that lowish figure of 30% represents the fact that so many Jews are Democrats rather than anything else that’s special about Jews, because Jews who are Democrats approve of Trump in figures very very similar to Trump=approval among Democrats as a whole, and Jews who are Republicans have Trump approval rates that are very very similar to those of Republicans as a whole.

But back to Glick’s article [emphasis mine]:

Young American Jews aren’t turning against Israel because their values are different from Israeli values. By and large, they have the same values as Israeli society. And if they know anything about Israel, they know that their values aren’t in conflict with Israeli values.

Young American Jews are turning on Israel for two reasons. First, they don’t care that they are Jewish and as a consequence, see no reason to stick their necks out on Israel’s behalf.

And second, due in large part to the political BDS campaign on college campuses, supporting Israel requires them to endanger or relinquish their ideological home on the Left. Since their leftist identities are far stronger than their Jewish identities, young American Jews are joining the BDS mob in increasing numbers.

Anyone interested in the question of why so many Jews are Democrats should read this 2009 book by Norman Podhoretz.

48 Responses to “Caroline Glick on Trump, Israel, and America’s secular Jews”

  1. John Guilfoyle Says:

    A theological observation…and it will likely come out crappy because I’m trying to employ brevity…

    If your identity is grounded in something you think you can acquire, achieve, or accumulate…and the left’s progressive ‘utopia,’ & their array of ’causes,’ seems to me to be that…then all other identities will be sacrificed on that altar.

    Glick IMO is spot on. Young American Jews aren’t “Jewish” they’re “progressives” (under the big umbrella of causes that progressives champion).

    I would argue (with apologies to & pleas for wisdom from folks who are Jewish) that genuine Jewish identity is based on graciously being chosen by God “for” service to the world as he directs. You can’t do that by your own strength or by the strength of a government, and in that relationship with God you are held accountable. Both those conditions are anathema to progressives. So you have what you have in the modern progressive/leftist movements.

    This is doubly tragic for the lives wasted & lost and the great harm caused by the left to others.

  2. Susan Says:

    I understand what you’re trying to say with the JINO label. But I think it doesn’t work, as an equivalent to the RINO label. Non-observant Jews are just as Jewish as observant or orthodox Jews. Maybe this is where part of the problems comes from.

  3. vanderleun Says:

    Au contraire: That sort of attempt to knit up the split hairs are where a lot of the problems come from.

  4. Frog Says:

    Denmark, Norway and Switzerland are what, maybe 3% of Europe’s population? A long way to go. Anti-Semitism is surging in good old Never Again Europe, as we all know.

    Jews are ethnic or religious. Or both, like the Orthodox. Not all religiously observant Jews are ethnic Jews; there is a small rate of conversion. The idea that US Jews, meaning ethnic Jews, should vote Republican or support the land of their origin is frankly nuts. Ethnic American Jews are a bloc, like blacks; both stuck on stupid.

  5. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Fight or flight. Self-protection. It’s a form of collaboration.

    Their subconscious motivation is the desperate hope that in embracing secularism, liberal and leftist Jews will have atoned for their ethnicity’s ancestral sins in the eyes of the goi′ĭm

    Their primary ancestral ‘sin’ being the biblical claim to be God’s ‘chosen people’. That God’s singling out of the Jews is mistakenly imagined to be a sign of special privilege, rather than of a duty to live up to a standard “heavier than a mountain” is perhaps history’s most profound misapprehension.

    Thomas Sowell observed that liberals are liberal first as self-validation and secondly, as a means of controlling others. Liberal leftist Jews are primarily liberal and leftist to establish and confirm their acceptability to non-Jewish secularists.

    The tragic irony is that it won’t work. In the eyes of the majority of the goi′ĭm… remaining Jewish, which is as much a cultural ethnicity as a religious affiliation makes escape from God’s covenant impossible, since only God can abrogate it and declare that the Jews are no longer his chosen people. A declaration yet to be announced…

  6. Sean Says:

    Or maybe they’re turning against Israel because Israel’s geopolitical situation puts the lie to Left-wing political philosophy. Israel used to be a Left-wing country before they got mugged by reality.

    But American Jews non-identifying as Jewish isn’t really new. Left-wing Jews have a tendency to identify with internationalist movements and explicitly deny their Jewishness (see Marx and Trotsky) while said movements implicitly benefit the Tribe, which is usually over-represented in the leadership.

    It’ll be interesting to see how the Left’s increasing turn towards anti-semitism affects American Jewry. Two percent of our population accounts for 50% of the Democratic Party’s donations, so it’ll be interesting to see how they square that with all the Muslim anti-Semites coming into the party.

  7. Frog Says:

    Sean, last time I looked, the two top contributors to the DNC were public employee unions and trial lawyers. Ethnic Jews are vigorously involved in both. The trial lawyer Jews in fact compose a living example of the old caricature that Jews are money-grubbers first and foremost.

  8. Frog Says:

    Sean: “it’ll be interesting to see how they square that with all the Muslim anti-Semites coming into the party.”
    The catch is that, like Marx and Trotsky, they deny their Jewishness, and think they are immune. Or, in typical delusional arrogance, believe they can remain OK despite the evidence…the mayor of London is now Muslim, and the cratering of the UK under the Islamic assault will simply increase. It will not stop with the mere vandalizing of Jewish cemeteries. Nor will it stop here, not as long as we allow CAIR et al. to practice taqiyya. We have two Muslims, both black Dems, in the House. That number will grow, particularly in nutty states like MN and the Arab-populated MI.

  9. Ira Says:

    Sean wrote (emphasis added),

    But American Jews non-identifying as Jewish isn’t really new. Left-wing Jews have a tendency to identify with internationalist movements and explicitly deny their Jewishness (see Marx and Trotsky) while said movements implicitly benefit the Tribe, which is usually over-represented in the leadership.

    I agree with everything besides the part set forth (by me) in bold letters.

    No statist regime, be it a monarchy, socialist or communist government, or otherwise, has ever benefited the Tribe.

  10. Richard Saunders Says:

    I would add one other reason most young Jews have abandoned Judaism for leftism. there’s an old Yiddish expression, “Es is schwer zu sein a Yid”— It’s hard to be a Jew. It’s hard to observe Shabbat, and holidays, and the other 610 commandments that Jews are supposed to observe (I’d say you only encounter a couple of hundred of those in everyday life, but even that is asking a lot.) Millennials, in the main, don’t want to do anything that’s hard — mentally or morally hard, that is. It’s so much easier to get on the “gimme” bandwagon.

    A friend of mine predicts that in 50 years, there will only be two kinds of Jews in the U.S. — the Amish and the Irish.

    The Amish Jews, those wierdos in long black coats, hats, and beards, who keep to themselves and mutter in an incomprehensible language, and the Irish Jews, those who, once a year, remember something about some old customs their grandparents had and have a bagel and cream cheese to celebrate.

  11. Richard Saunders Says:

    Oops, forgot “keep kosher” in the fourth line.

  12. Sean Says:

    Ira,

    No statist regime, be it a monarchy, socialist or communist government, or otherwise, has ever benefited the Tribe.

    The Tribe has a tendency to promulgate universalist belief systems that wind up backfiring on them spectacularly. First Christianity, then Communism. Before Stalin’s purges, 50% of the Communist leadership was Jewish, while only 5% of the rank and file were. After the purges, the Communists were as hard on them as anyone else.

    Multiculturalism and immigration are going to turn out the same way for them. They’re the biggest proponents for both, the idea being to dilute white goyim political power, but they’re importing large numbers of anti-Semites. It’s going to blow up in their face here before long, like it already has been in Europe.

  13. Somebody Says:

    I realize that I might get a disappointing answer on a site where a statement like “young American Jews…don’t care that they are Jewish” is presented uncritically, but…

    Isn’t anyone here bothered by Sean’s gauzily veiled anti-Semitism? Neoneocon, you cool with it?

  14. Sean Says:

    Aw Bro,

    You gotta stop with the concern trolling. SJWs like you have been pulling this stuff for years now, it’s not working with conservatives anymore.

  15. huxley Says:

    Somebody: You might sharpen your points a bit — exactly which words and whose are you taking issue with?

    Your first point, “young American Jews…don’t care that they are Jewish,” seems to be from Glick:

    Young American Jews are turning on Israel for two reasons. First, they don’t care that they are Jewish and as a consequence, see no reason to stick their necks out on Israel’s behalf.

    Caroline Glick is an American-born Israeli journalist, which I would say entitles her to an informed opinion. It is a blunt and harsh pronouncement but that doesn’t rule out the possibility it is true or largely true, and Glick is a reasonable person to call it.

    In my experience of American Jews — all liberal and no orthodox — it seems true, however regrettable. Furthermore, I find Glick is generally spot-on.

    Anyway. Good to see you here. I for one like a range of opinions.

  16. Sean Says:

    Frog,

    the two top contributors to the DNC were public employee unions and trial lawyers. Ethnic Jews are vigorously involved in both. The trial lawyer Jews in fact compose a living example of the old caricature that Jews are money-grubbers first and foremost.

    I don’t know about that last part, there seem to be plenty of counter-factuals to the stereotype. In any case, that statistic about 50% of the Democratic Party’s donations (and 25% of the Republican Party’s) coming from Jewish donors is courtesy of Seymour Martin Lipset IIRC.

  17. AesopFan Says:

    Glick isn’t really telling us anything new, although the evidence of declining support may be alarming to Israel’s supporters. Plus, the infighting among Israel’s Jews is almost as bad as in the Diaspora.
    However, just as we don’t think other ethnic / identity groups should be expected to vote as a bloc, Jews are free to choose their own way as well. For that matter, many Christians support Leftist causes that are (to some of us) antithetical to the religious doctrines of Christ.
    As always, YMMV.

    For some historical background:
    Read Natan Sharansky’s book “Fear No Evil” to see how little support the USSR’s Jews had from the American Jewish community in the past.
    Without Reagan’s intervention (with a few Jewish groups and lots of Christian support), many of those who eventually were allowed to immigrate would still be there (alive or more likely dead).

    And surprisingly (to me), they also had important support from Jimmy Carter and Dem senator Henry Jackson.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jews-stood-up-to-the-us-government-40-years-ago-and-should-again-on-iran/2015/07/24/a72ba03c-30bb-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?utm_term=.9f9f54151ea4

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jews-stood-up-to-the-us-government-40-years-ago-and-should-again-on-iran/2015/07/24/a72ba03c-30bb-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?utm_term=.9f9f54151ea4

  18. Sean Says:

    If you want to understand why many American Jews would refuse to identify as Jewish, this is pertinent:

    https://www.amazon.com/Jew-Vs-Struggle-American-Jewry/dp/0684859440/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499054958&sr=8-1&keywords=jew+vs+jew

    Yes, there are actually Jews who blow up synagogues to protest Zionism. It really happens.

  19. Sean Says:

    Glick isn’t really telling us anything new, although the evidence of declining support may be alarming to Israel’s supporters. Plus, the infighting among Israel’s Jews is almost as bad as in the Diaspora.

    I dunno, declining support among American Jews would be alarming if it wasn’t for the ever-steady support of their betes noirs, American evangelicals.

    It has to be the most ironic political relationship in the world.

  20. huxley Says:

    I used to share a ride with a smart Jewish woman. We would talk and sometimes about Israel.

    My friend was progressive and religious. Although she converted to Christianity, she continued to attend synagogue and some Jewish groups. She was seeking a reconciliation between the faiths that I didn’t really understand. My point, though, is that she was serious about Judaism.

    However, I was shocked at how harsh she was about Israel vis-a-vis Palestinians. It seemed a mixture of her progressive loyalties and her desire that Israel be perfect.

    I used to see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as he said/she said and who knows. But one fine 90s afternoon, when I was still a progressive myself, I read the Hamas Covenant with its fine language about establishing Palestine from river to sea — in other words, no Israel — and I realized there was no equivalence here.

    I’ve stood for Israel ever since.

  21. Somebody Says:

    Huxley,

    My complaint about Glick’s piece is that Glick, even if she knows a great many Jews, certainly does not know all or even most American Jews, and has no great insight into their faith or motivations. (Coincidentally, one of the rights claimed by Salafi Jihadists is the right to judge the faith of other Muslims by their deeds and, upon finding them unworthy, declare them apostates; mainstream Islam reserves the right to judge a person’s heart to God alone.) The conclusion that she reaches–a derogatory one without evidence that also satisfies a particular position is one that a) should not be repeated uncritically, and b) is a sign of the same trap liberals fells into this last election, of assuming that people who disagree with you politically can only have vile or otherwise unappealing motives and should be castigated for it.

    Sean–who, if you recall, in another thread referred to an actual Nazi as misguidedly idealistic–is mostly guilty of rehashing the “shiftless cosmopolitan” slur that was trite by the time Stalin made it. The Jews advance multiculturism to something something, money money, did you know the communists were Jews, and etc.

  22. huxley Says:

    [American evangelicals and Israel] has to be the most ironic political relationship in the world.

    Sean: Ain’t that the truth!

    Though the current enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend coziness between Saudi Arabia and Israel towards Iran is in the running.

  23. huxley Says:

    My complaint about Glick’s piece is that Glick, even if she knows a great many Jews, certainly does not know all or even most American Jews, and has no great insight into their faith or motivations.

    Somebody: So you say.

    But unless you are ruling out all generalizations, that’s a silly argument.

    Like saying, unless you know all Republicans or all Trump supporters or most of them, you can’t make any statement whatsoever about them.

  24. Sean Says:

    Somebody,

    *Please* stop being a slimy, histrionic douchebag. You’re only showing everyone how dishonest you are.

  25. huxley Says:

    Somebody: I don’t close-read Sean. Generally I get where he is coming from. I don’t find your insinuations in the ballpark of how I understand what Sean says.

    Pray, quote him exactly and your arguments against him, and I’ll think about it.

    As it stands, throwing up your hands in horror Sean said some Nazi was “misguidedly idealistic” doesn’t do much for me. I happen to think a lot of, but not all, Nazis and Fascists were misguidedly idealistic. Likewise Communists and Democrats if we are going to play this game.

  26. Sean Says:

    huxley,

    However, I was shocked at how harsh she was about Israel vis-a-vis Palestinians. It seemed a mixture of her progressive loyalties and her desire that Israel be perfect.

    That’s what I was saying. American Jews seem to have this bizarre notion that Israel is supposed to be the world’s most perfect country. I think they’ve infected white liberals with the same notion about America…

    I used to see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as he said/she said and who knows. But one fine 90s afternoon, when I was still a progressive myself, I read the Hamas Covenant with its fine language about establishing Palestine from river to sea — in other words, no Israel — and I realized there was no equivalence here.
    I’ve stood for Israel ever since.

    Back when I was an evangelical, I was as pro-Israel as the next guy. It’s not hard to be, they’re much better at PR than the Palestinians, that’s for sure. But now I just see it as tribe vs. tribe. I don’t criticize Israel for anything they do to the Palestinians, they’re just a nation doing what they have to to defend themselves, it’s natural, and frankly they treat the Palestinians a hell of a lot nicer than any other country in that part of the world treats its minorities.
    My only real gripe about Israel is that AIPAC leads us through the nose on ME policy, always more to their benefit than ours. It’s the tick leading the dog.

    https://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374531501

  27. Sean Says:

    As it stands, throwing up your hands in horror Sean said some Nazi was “misguidedly idealistic” doesn’t do much for me.

    I didn’t even say “misguidedly idealistic,” I said Richard Spencer was a quixotic character, as in a goofy guy LARPing as a revolutionary.

    Somebody doesn’t really have anything to counter me with, so he relies on ad homs and concern trolling.

  28. huxley Says:

    My only real gripe about Israel is that AIPAC leads us through the nose on ME policy, always more to their benefit than ours. It’s the tick leading the dog.

    Sean: Well, you could leave out the tick thing.

    Aside from being obnoxious, it’s just not true unless you are happy to consign the rest of the world’s nations to tick status. The US really is the 800-lb. gorilla on the world’s stage though China is up and coming.

    Israel truly is an astounding country in terms of how its citizens created a first-world country out of the ME desert without oil. They have been our first-string ally in that crucial, volatile part of the world. They have enriched the entire world with their contributions in science and culture. They have a true democracy honoring human rights even for their enemies.

    What’s not to like?

  29. huxley Says:

    I didn’t even say “misguidedly idealistic,” I said Richard Spencer was a quixotic character, as in a goofy guy LARPing as a revolutionary. –Sean

    Somebody: You’ve got some ‘splaining to do.

    Richard Spencer is a serious, honorable person. Not at all a Nazi from any angle.

  30. Somebody Says:

    That’s… that’s not actually what the word quixotic means. But ok.

    Look, this is good. It’s good to get this insight.

    The author of the gif that Trump just posted on twitter, of himself beating up CNN, was made by another junior fascist on Reddit who also call Trump his “God emperor,” like Sean. There’s a nexus between Trump and people like Sean and Trump’s non-fascist supporters who either don’t know about, or don’t care about, what’s happening right in front of your faces.

    Huxley, go check out mpcdot. Compare that rhetoric–the pro-Trump and the obscenely racist, to Sean’s. If you’re still ok with it, cool. That’s cool. Clarity is cool.

  31. Somebody Says:

    “Richard Spencer is a serious, honorable person. Not at all a Nazi from any angle.”

    Ohhh ok! Got it, never mind.

    Neoneocon, you’re still cool with this?

  32. AesopFan Says:

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/267159/32-house-dems-sign-anti-israel-letter-pro-hamas-daniel-greenfield

    According to the anti-Israel group behind the Congressional letter, “The effort to gather signatories to the letter was supported by a coalition of human rights organizations including U.S. Campaign for Palestinian Rights, CODEPINK, Jewish Voice for Peace, and American Muslims for Palestine.”

    American Muslims for Palestine has been linked to Hamas. Jewish Voice for Peace, which is neither Jewish nor peaceful, is a BDS group. This is what the Dems are mainstreaming.

    32 Democrats in Congress signed on to a letter circulated by a group that even the ADL had described as having its “organizational roots in the now-defunct Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP), an anti-Semitic group that served as the main propaganda arm for Hamas in the United States.”

  33. Sean Says:

    huxley,

    Aside from being obnoxious, it’s just not true unless you are happy to consign the rest of the world’s nations to tick status. The US really is the 800-lb. gorilla on the world’s stage though China is up and coming.

    I don’t really know another good simile where something really small leads something really large. AIPAC spends more money lobbying our government than any other country in the world. That should tell you something.

    Israel truly is an astounding country in terms of how its citizens created a first-world country out of the ME desert without oil.

    True. I’m not gainsaying anything about the country itself, just its relationship with us. Sure we benefit from it, but they play us like a fiddle.

    They have been our first-string ally in that crucial, volatile part of the world. They have enriched the entire world with their contributions in science and culture. They have a true democracy honoring human rights even for their enemies.

    What’s not to like?

    All true, but they also cause us a ton of headaches.

    Like I say, I’m not anti-Israel or anything, but our relationship with them is a lot more ambivalent than most folks on the Right want to admit. One thing that has always stayed with me was Bibi’s quote in ‘From Beirut to Jerusalem’ by Thomas Friedman: “They [American evangelicals] support us because they want us to support them when the messiah comes. And when he comes, I will put in a good word for them.” (or words to that effect)

    It’s hard to overstate the cynicism in a statement like that.

  34. Sean Says:

    The author of the gif that Trump just posted on twitter, of himself beating up CNN, was made by another junior fascist on Reddit who also call Trump his “God emperor,” like Sean.

    lol You’re gay, right? You have to be. Only gay men argue like this.

  35. Sean Says:

    Ohhh ok! Got it, never mind.

    Neoneocon, you’re still cool with this?

    And now we have you concern trolling two of us lol.

    Anyone want to place bets on how many people Somebody will try to get banned before this is all said and done?

  36. Sean Says:

    Aesopfan,

    32 Democrats in Congress signed on to a letter circulated by a group that even the ADL had described as having its “organizational roots in the now-defunct Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP), an anti-Semitic group that served as the main propaganda arm for Hamas in the United States.”

    This is what I’m talking about. The ACLUs and Chuck Schumers of the world are making this possible. It’s ludicrous.

  37. Somebody Says:

    Not trying to get anyone banned? Seriously, why would getting someone banned from a niche right wing blog even rise to the level of anything at all?

    Mostly just curious about a blog that positions itself as mainstream conservative and its relationship to people who, well, praise an actual Nazi. Like, is discourse possible or is it, you know, is it you.

  38. Sean Says:

    Mostly just curious about a blog that positions itself as mainstream conservative and its relationship to people who, well, praise an actual Nazi. Like, is discourse possible or is it, you know, is it you.

    Does he consider himself a Nazi? I didn’t think he did, but you apparently follow him more than I do, so what do I know.

    In any case, three days ago, you were all, “I’m not going to talk to you anymore because muh moral superiority.” I went, “Okay, lol, he’ll be back.” And lo and behold, I was right. Didn’t take long.

    But now that I see how dishonestly you go about your business here, I have to say it’s pretty distasteful. “Not trying to get anyone banned?” Then what are you doing? Just being a drama queen for its own sake?

    And you are a queen, right?

  39. Somebody Says:

    I’m generally not a fan of “he’s protesting a little too much” theorizing but you seem really weirdly fixated on that, so ok.

  40. huxley Says:

    “Richard Spencer is a serious, honorable person. Not at all a Nazi from any angle.”

    Ohhh ok! Got it, never mind.

    Somebody: Ah. More knee-jerk insinuations without support.

    I say again: Richard Spencer is a serious, honorable person and not a Nazi from any angle.

    Aside from snarkishness, your rebuttal? Have you read Spencer to any depth?

  41. huxley Says:

    Somebody: For the record I’ve been researching American Nazis since 1980 when I was a progressive.

    I know whereof I speak. Do you?

  42. Sean Says:

    Weirdly fixated on what? Your general gayness?

  43. Somebody Says:

    Huxley,

    His advocacy of ethnic cleansing to achieve a racially pure state for the people he’s identified as the master race, especially as a way to redress imaginary racial slights and restore an imaginary idealized past, would all place him at least in the Proto-fascist camp, in the sense of Umberto Eco’s taxonomy.

    But then being all that AND leading people in an actual Nazi salute sort of push him over the finish line. And yes, he claimed it was just ironic! The sort of self-serving lie that I think could only convince people who wanted to be convinced. If you’re already advocating ethnic cleansing to achieve a racially pure state for the master race, the burden of proof that your Nazi salute is ironic is maybe a little heavier than it would have been otherwise.

  44. neo-neocon Says:

    Somebody:

    I ban people for fighting, insulting me, trolling, and over-the-top obscenities. Also, if there’s some sort of extreme bigotry. Otherwise I tend to let people have their say.

    Nor do I police this blog every minute of every day, and I think that commenters realize that. So “Somebody,” asking me repetitively if I’m cool with this person or that person who says something that “Somebody” objects to, or that’s somewhat offensive in some way, is skirting the edge of being a troll. I ask for politeness, but not everything has to be PC here, and there’s plenty said in the comments section with which I disagree. If you and someone else want to have a discussion about whether a certain person (such as Spencer) is a Nazi or not, with examples to back your argument up, that’s perfectly acceptable.

    That said, about the Richard Spencer comment in particular. I don’t read Spencer and don’t care to, and I’m not at all sympathetic to what I know of his views. My impression of him is that if he’s not exactly a Nazi, he certainly is Nazi-esque.

    And huxley, you’re not by any chance confusing Richard Spencer with Robert Spencer, are you? As I already said, I haven’t read Richard Spencer’s stuff, but looking at brief bios of him, he certainly seems to have said and done some Nazi-like stuff.

  45. Somebody Says:

    Thanks for the reply! I wasn’t asking you to ban him, despite his insistence. I couldn’t imagine caring less if he has access to this venue or not, and it certainly wouldn’t make a dent against the alt-right.

    I was honestly asking whether you and the community you have curated are ok with someone like him engaging in anti-Semitism and gay baiting in your venue. I’m curious about the standards of your community. “Extreme bigotry” feels like something of a copout, but a standard’s a standard, I suppose.

    The Robert/Richard Spencer thing would make sense. Robert Spencer is one of those very smart people who has figured out how to monetize conservatives’ anti-Muslim bigotry into a job; my hat’s off to him, but he’s only ever struck me as a clever bigot and never as a fascist.

  46. Sean Says:

    Has Robert Spencer monetized anti-Muslim bigotry? Good for him. Anti-Muslim bigotry is perfectly reasonable and the world needs more of it.

  47. Ymar Sakar Says:

    See the SJW called Some Boy over there, trying to insinuate himself into your ranking counsel and determine your rules by breaking you against your own “supposed rules”.

    Such was the way Alinsky, Ayers, and Gramsci broke the “great” and “exceptional” United States of America.

  48. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Oh btw, the Nazis are still active in the world.

    The US pardoned a lot of Nazi scientists and they made it into American institutions and adopted Roman light theology which people considered patriotic. Apollo program, is the Apollyon Rising found in the so called Judeo Christian prophecies of the US.

    There’s also Antarctica being off limits. Interesting stuff over there.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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