July 12th, 2017

Let’s make an analogy

There is no doubt in my mind that if Chelsea Clinton (the best analogy I can think of) had done something similar during the campaign to what Donald Trump Jr. did, the coverage and outrage would be minimal in the MSM. The press on the right would probably try to make something of it, but with a lack of success.

Commenter “Big Maq” here has expressed the idea that, if the same set of circumstances were happening only the alleged perps were on the left, most people on the right (including commenters at this blog) would be up in arms about it:

Nothing illegal [that Trump Jr. did], some [on the right] say. Well, we know very well that many of the same folks are frustrated with the the same kind of “legal” reasoning of right and wrong on the left.

Nothing illegal with the AG meeting with bill clinton on the tar mac. Hey, “where’s the proof?”

These are the same people who probably chant “drain the swamp!”.

I’ve noticed ever since I started immersing myself in politics over a decade ago that both left and right defend their side and attack the other for similar offenses. That’s human nature, of course. That’s why I especially value the opinions of the few people I’ve seen on either side who seem to really be looking at things objectively. Jonathan Turley has been one, Andrew C. McCarthy another, and Alan Dershowitz has sometimes (not always, by any means) been another.

I like to think of myself that way, too, but of course my own objectivity about myself could easily be called into question. But I think that political “changers” have a bit more of a chance of being objective in that sense, since they’ve looked at life (and politics) from both sides now.

I also have a legal background and I tend to be legalistic—some say, much too legalistic—about a lot of issues and offenses on both sides. Just to take an example, one that you might not be aware of, I have long maintained that Bill Clinton did not commit perjury during the Lewinsky affair (to avoid going into that whole song and dance right now, I refer you to this, and please follow the links you find in that comment of mine). This tends to drive a lot of people on the right crazy, but it is the way I see it and I think I am correct (again, see the comment) although that is not a popular opinion on the right.

Lastly, I want to mention that Big Maq’s analogy—the Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton on the tarmac during the 2016 campaign—is a very flawed one. The discussions on the right about the Lynch/Clinton meeting centered on the impropriety of Lynch’s meeting because she was the AG and because Hillary Clinton was under investigation at the time. It had everything to do with the rules about her special position and the appearance of impropriety. My own post on the subject says as much:

At any rate, we don’t know what was said. However, AGs and people connected with a matter that’s being investigated by that AG are not supposed to have conversations about golf or anything else. They’re supposed to scrupulously avoid any situation that has the appearance or impropriety or offers the possibility of impropriety. Both parties here are and/or should have been well aware of that. Anyone who pretends otherwise is either ignorant or disingenuous.

The repercussions in terms of what will happen to Hillary Clinton are unknown, but the upshot is that in the ensuing hue and cry over the meeting, Lynch has said she will accept the recommendation of the FBI in the matter of the Hillary Clinton investigation. That leaves FBI Director James Comey in a more powerful position than anyone had expected.

I can see no analogy whatsoever in that particular case.

43 Responses to “Let’s make an analogy”

  1. Cornhead Says:

    I find it very single “news” item about this Russia thing to be completely ridiculous. This Russia distraction was created by Bill, Hillary and their gang as a distraction. A distraction from her failure to win the election even though she had a billion in cash and she was going up against the amateur Trump. And it has worked. Hours of air time devoted to delegitimizing Trump as President.

    The Clintons know their friends in the media well. They carry their water and are great at pouring it on. The media can’t begin to cover the story in “Clinton Cash” because it is too complicated. The speech money they received was thinly disguised bribes. Call a spade a spade.

    Paul Mirengoff had another good post on a he real Russia collusion. Russia has secretly been funding Green groups to stop fracking and pipelines. Hillary knows that as she told a private group about it and the details were released by WikiLeaks. By the MSM can’t begin to cover that story as it is too hard and goes against Democrat party values.

  2. Big Maq Says:

    ” But I think that political “changers” have a bit more of a chance of being objective in that sense, since they’ve looked at life (and politics) from both sides now.” – Neo

    2016 was profoundly disruptive.

    While the signs were there before, it became incredibly clear that for many, it was just blue vs red team sports.

    It wasn’t just “that both left and right defend their side and attack the other for similar offenses.”

    But, in a similar way to how you see that the attacks from the left are “different” this time, the fundamentals have shifted in what the GOP has long stood for, and by extension the people who support them – even by church leaders, of all people.

    Things that were once considered important don’t seem to matter anymore.

    So, yes, as a long time conservative, it seems somewhere along the line in 2016 I’ve become one of those “changers” (or a great many others did, and I’m left behind).

    On the other hand, I hardly think the current state of the GOP is appealing to all prior GOP supporters. Lower than normal turnout, and low approval ratings. Perhaps a signal of folks displaced?

    I could be wrong, but I don’t think this new trumpian GOP is going to fare any better than before, and folks are in for some grave disappointment at that.

    The only saving grace (for that GOP) is that the dems are just as dysfunctional with their regular voters.

  3. arfldgr Says:

    Funny, but leaders on the left have locked themselvsin rooms with soviets and no one lsitening since before nixon did with china…

    but the game is DISTRACTION
    and so far, you get distractd by everything hey want you do and ignore everything they dont want you to pay attention to!!!!!!!!!

    “Political liberty in a citizen is that peace of mind that comes from the opinion each person has of his safety, and to have this liberty, the government must be such that a citizen can not afraid of another ”

    nice thing hillary sold 20% of US nucler material, now there is no way to identify where a bomb came from, and there now is no longer the huge imbalance as US has lots of nuclear material the way china has lots of mercury, and other countries have more chrome, or the gobi has lithium…

    Russian nuclear sub launches supersonic missile…

    The K-150 Tomsk submarine launched a supersonic P-700 Granit cruise missile from a “submersed” location, according to the Russian Ministry of Defence.

    In a statement, the Ministry said: “A Granit supersonic cruise missile was launched from a submersed position at a ground target located at the Kura testing grounds in the Kamchatka Krai.

    he news comes after the US shot down a test intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM), similar to the rockets developed by North Korea, using its world-class Terminal High Altitude Area Defence (THAAD) system.

    Warhead High explosive or nuclear
    Mach 1.6 (low altitude) – 2.5+ (high altitude)

    Beijing is setting the stage for war in the South China Sea — Quartz

    History Repeats: bt how do you know its a repeat if you dont know the other history?

    they key to ownership is occupation
    the key to taking back what you own, is kicking out squatters, even if they are a nuclear state

    The Battle of the Paracel Islands was a military engagement between the naval forces of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) and the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam) in the Paracel Islands on January 19, 1974. The battle was an attempt by the Republic of Vietnam Navy to expel the Chinese Navy from the vicinity.

    As a result of the battle, the PRC established de facto control over the Paracels. As part of its “nine-dash line” boundary policy in the South China Sea, the PRC continues to claim authority over the surrounding waters. This claim has been persistently contested by Vietnam, the Philippines, and many international observers.


    Japan argues that it surveyed the islands in the late 19th century and found them to be terra nullius (Latin: land belonging to no one); subsequently, China acquiesced to Japanese sovereignty until the 1970s. The PRC and the ROC argue that documentary evidence prior to the First Sino-Japanese War indicates Chinese possession and that the territory is accordingly a Japanese seizure that should be returned as the rest of Imperial Japan’s conquests were returned in 1945.

    anyone want to list out how many conflicts starrted over a bit of land two people claimed to own?

    heck, la raza and mecha nationlists want south USA back
    mulitultural blood and soil does the same

    been waiting for someone to quote Blut und Boden or even note the same old social justice too, and other things (like willi munzenberg antifa).

    Blood and Soil refers to an ideology that focuses on ethnicity based on two factors, descent blood (of a folk) and territory. It celebrates the relationship of a people to the land they occupy and cultivate, and it places a high value on the virtues of rural living.

    that should give you a clue what will happen when a certain population drops below a certain point as to be indefensible from the pre-established crimes against whatever… then the predictios of the Magyar struggle will come as these hidebound others who showed their status, are swept from the globe in a world storm.

    Which no one seems to care much about given the distractions.

    Just remember, there was a state that stockpiled weapons and was forbidden to. then suddenly, they appeared different than before, and on the stage full force.. that is not uncommon in the decades before conflict.

    given the way the news and the left and academics forget what happene from january this year, the explanations of war post created, do not remember well the things that led up to it, because they didnt notice it then, and so, looking back, they didnt know what to look for either… even worse, most who wrote never were there and were reading other books and making arm chair explainations like here in full cloth.

  4. Ann Says:

    Worth a read — Andrew McCarthy’s latest: Trump, Russia, and the Misconduct of Public Men

  5. Dave Says:

    People don’t buy the Russia bullsh*t because the leaking of DNC emails did very little to sway the election either way. So all of the sudden the working class white in the Rusted belt states decided to vote for Trump because they have a dislike of Podesta’s hobby of spirit cooking, give me a break.

  6. Cornhead Says:


    That’s true. The DNC leaked emails told us nothing we didn’t already know. But the MSM just says “hacked” and “interfered” and “colluded” and it sounds so, so sinister.

  7. Dave Says:


    the left are masters of this sort of deceitful wordplay propaganda. Just the other day George Lopez shared the following statement “The Trump administration is deporting Latinos to make the streets safer… You wanna make the streets safer deport the police.” look how he deceitfully used the word latinos instead of illegal immigrants to make it sound much more sinister, imply police are rounding up latinos in streets because of their ethnicity regardless of their immigration status

  8. Dave Says:

    Have anyone pondered the possibility that the Russia collusion plot is actually a collusion between Putin and the democrats to undermine the Trump administration?

  9. tom swift Says:

    both left and right defend their side and attack the other for similar offenses.

    Bill Clinton reaching an “understanding” with the law enforcement official responsible for investigating his wife’s crimes, vs. a candidate’s son talking about nothing much with some lawyer from Russia.

    Calling these “similar” is like equating an e-mail nastygram to the Pearl Harbor attack. They’re not even close.

  10. parker Says:

    I am a conservative in the sense that I believe citizens are due a government that stays out of our daily lives to the maximum extent possible and that plays by the rules. Rules such as the entire Bill of Rights, etc. Idealistic perhaps but thats my burden.

    In high profile cases, I try to avoid judging the outcome until it is impartially investigated. Had Chelsea Clinton done something similar as Don Jr my only criteria is that if either did something illegal, they deserve to be punished according to the law.

  11. Richard Saunders Says:

    If I went by Manju, Big Maq, and Bill’s rules, every time I took a meeting with somebody that a friend of a friend asked me to, because supposedly the guy has the greatest tax shelter in history, I’ve committed conspiracy to obstruct the internal revenue laws, even if I know the deal is bullshit and do nothing about it. Even if the guy really is trying to get me to join the Shriners!

    Gentlemen, if and when somebody produces actual evidence of Trump or any of his children, aides, associates, followers, satellites, or sycophants colluding with the Russians, I’ll be happy to join you in denouncing him. Until then, bullshit is still bullshit.

  12. Artfldgr Says:

    Maybe the point isnt the point?

    U.S. stocks rose toward records, Treasuries rallied and the dollar retreated after Janet Yellen signaled the Federal Reserve won’t rush to tighten monetary policy as inflation remains persistently below target. / concern remains that the latest saga in Washington may be an unwelcome distraction for the Fed seeking to dismantle a decade of monetary stimulus.

    and the funniest thing?
    russia will say or do whatever will work best for them regardless of any other point!

    so if it works out better for them to say they favor trump they will, if it works out better for them to say they favor hillary, they will… there is no moral calculation, whether they help either, neither, or both, its completely separate from the position they take for advantage… to you they are one thing and related, to them its not…(because to keep them related is to force yourself the losing point when you can collect all winning points if you just ignore it)

    as to DOUBLE STANDARDS, how many times everyone gonna discuss it and agree that is it? really… this is kind of silly to keep proving every day the sun rises… tomorrow, we will prove the sun rise… tomorrow we will prove the sun rises… today, we showed there is a blatant double standard, tomorrow we will show a blatant double standard.

    and on both days your inner child will be upset that there was no higher authority that moves to go tell about it and have the world be in order!!!

    thats the difference between really understanding adult reality and not. double standards? unless you have a higher authority to go appeal to and has the power to act, confirming the sun rises is wasting time. a coworker asked if i had the stuff to show i was right, and i said to what purpose? there is no higher authority that cares to bring it to, there is no marshall fairenes and polly purity to pitch in.

    your on your own

    the difference is that i am watching a strategy play out with lots of tactics and the brilliance of them or the oppotunism and the way its played is quite a thing to watch. even MORE so that these plays and moves are so outside the lifetime kabuki dance we alive who have grown up in, we are totally confused by the moves the way people were confused by Bobby Fischer

    ah the joy of Zugzwang!!!

  13. AMartel Says:

    If Chelsea Clinton had done what Donald Jr. did:
    1. It wouldn’t have been reported, anywhere;
    2. In the unlikely event that it sneaked out into the popular media, it would have been treated as politics as usual. No one would be surprise. DNC backers would say that’s how the game is played; if you don’t like it find another game. Republicans would not be impressed as it would pale in comparison to her mother’s shenanigans.

  14. Kyndyll G Says:

    I am not a lawyer.

    Improper secret agreement between two or more entities, to defraud or deprive others of their property or rightful share, or to otherwise indulge in a forbidden, illegal, or illegitimate activity.

    The betrayal of one’s own country by waging war against it or by consciously or purposely acting to aid its enemies.

    Neither the promise nor the reality of the Trump Jr meeting meets either of these definitions. Lured by the prospect of getting negative information about his father’s political opponent, he instead was talked to about an unrelated topic. No further action was taken.

    Collusion requires agreement on a further action between the two involved parties, often (but not necessarily) against a third party. Receiving information is not an agreement, thus no collusion – not in the reality of the meeting or even in its promise.

    Even if the meeting had led to receiving information about Clinton delivered by someone associated with the government of Russia, and that somehow aided Russia, it is still technically not treason. We are not at war with Russia. We have never been at war with Russia. Technically, we were never even at war with the USSR, and even if we had been, the USSR ceased to exist decades ago.

    Bill: I’ve read through these related threads trying to get your position. I’m a by-the-book rule of law person myself, but I cannot see a crime where there’s no crime. There’s no collusion and there’s certainly no treason here. You can meet anyone in the world you want to get information but unless you enter an agreement with that person to commit an action that is illegal, you haven’t done anything wrong. That said, I get that there are what we might term political “industry standards” on how to handle the perception of wrongdoing just to prevent this sort of thing that could have been handled better.

    Dave: “Have anyone pondered the possibility that the Russia collusion plot is actually a collusion between Putin and the democrats to undermine the Trump administration?” I put nothing past the Democrats, who are actively evil, or Russia, which acts in its own interests. However, at the time the seeds for this were planted, I suspect that Clinton and the Democrats didn’t imagine it was possible that Clinton would lose. I have begun to contemplate that this was put in place for future use against Russia by the Democrats, who expected to have a president in office right now and have been on the outs with Russia for a while now.

  15. Artfldgr Says:

    1) the lefts construction of the “Russian Gambit” puts Putin almost in direct control of US politics!!!

    [how he answers or reveals or fakes, will move the US in big ways that before he had no sway in… duh]

    2) there is always asymmetry, so the Chelsea Clinton and such is a waste of time
    [the US had the Sherman “Ronson’s” and the Germans had the Tigers. where would Patton go to say it was unfair? unfair was the whole point!!! and to be expected in combatants and sides. i guess the problem here is that their colluding with their own entrusts across the aisle gave one a false sense of trust and safety… ]

    3) Given that Trump et al ARE the higher powers, there is nowhere to go but in the mirror

    [how nice it must be to know you didnt do wrong and there are no real records out there of any real note, no scandals, nothing not already public… you can send the opposition into all manner of crazy moves looking for what the left thinks must be there (cause no one is successful without cheating, they know, they cheat to be successful!!!!!!!). So he et al has to play the moves themselves, which they are doing and they understand – but everyone else is so use to compliance they just dont know how to read defiance and being in the driver seat]

    4) Pigs Root – its their nature, once that is understood, and there are no truffels in the crap pile, the rest is easy..

    Pigs love to root (dig with their snouts) and it is a natural behavior. Please do not discourage your pet pig from rooting. This is what his snout is for. Give him a place in the yard that will be all his and that he can root up to his hearts content. A rooting pig is a pig in heaven. If your pig roots up something in the yard that he should not have, it is not his fault. It is yours for poor planning.

    He has set them to root.. and look what they have found.. they are trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear, and trying to claim they all found truffles. its almost as if the dems suddenly lost their advisors… like they are now on their own with their own ideas without the practice of thinking things through!

    Jr cast out everything the minute they thought they caught him!! now what? they are going to do what? twist it, move it, cajole it, potentially try to use it, but ultimately, when compared to their behaviors for the past 30 years, its real easy to negate relatively the way they do. no reason to hurry about it either, let them use up gas, time, effort, and then just bring up stuff…

    He can shut them down in a minute…
    but to what end?
    if you dont think so, then you dont know enough about the power of the office of president in the abstract not just the legal sense, but also in the sense of what one can do with that power.

    this is why high morals used to be more important for office. each side used to try to expose each other, and so, they ended up policing each other, but entryism allowed dirt on both sides and a quid pro quo like european royalty had would exist. (that quid pro quo was you usually ransomed royalty back to home so that everyone can have another go at it next year (sarcasm))

    5) These people are lazy..
    in fact they are the leaders of lazy…the hard work woudl be te debates of substance without the pc influence delineating with fear a smaller arena… whose shape and form changes at the behest of the lazy side… convenient..

    [Trump can keep them moving from one point to another and wasting energy as they will always go for the short cut. they will not face up to the thing, and will not do the harder work required to ignore shortcuts and force it to the hard debate and without pc limits allowing the lack of hard debate, or negating the hard debate by being in control of rules you can pull out like teenagers screaming over the monopoly box.

    ultimately though they are not assessing properly as they must be assuming the wrong limits to be acting the way they do and that’s cause these limits are habit and not assessed. if this seems confusing, then realize that there is a lot Trump can do in terms of opening up records earlier, making things more available, ordering declassification of the inconvenient… and all under the auspices of national security in his attempt to relieve the shortcoming of potential blackmail and control by other state operatives by revealing what was secret and of no consequence other than embarrassment, impropriety, or potential legal violations.

    its been over 50 years and even more since the public has seen a office holder push the limits of office in terms of these things because if you look at the control of the house, senate and presidency, the Republicans been barely able compared to the dems for that whole period from FDR onward.

    6) Zugzwang

    each move they make can be countered and it forces them to either fizzle, waste energy till they fizzle, or find some other place to root

    oh, you dont know Zugzwang??

    Zugzwang (German for “compulsion to move”, pronounced [ˈtsuːktsvaŋ]) is a situation found in chess and other games wherein one player is put at a disadvantage because they must make a move when they would prefer to pass and not move. The fact that the player is compelled to move means that their position will become significantly weaker. A player is said to be “in zugzwang” when any possible move will worsen their position

    if you also add to it that Trump waits for them to move, because the attacker is always off balance by their own choice of move… he gets to direct their force and in their frenzy they make mistakes that force them to make moves they dont want to make..

    one last thing..
    what kind of education do you think you get in a miliary academy besides regular academics???

    higher executive function (or out)
    strategy, tactics, history, game theory

    In the United States, the term “military academy” does not necessarily mean a government-owned institution run by the armed forces to train its own officers. It may also mean a middle school, high school, or college, whether public or private, which instructs its students in military-style education, discipline and tradition.

    its why foreign leaders send their kids here for education
    you can get the military information, without the actual military involvement. but thats for another day

    leaders first learn how to suck it up
    and unlike Harvard and Yale, they learn from the bottom up
    they offer leadership courses

    leaders that change things by their ability allways confuse people because most people don’t understand leadership, they confuse power with leadership, or collecting people of like opinion and having a lot of them… but real leaders… well.. real leaders can get people to stand up and die and not be hated for it (even when they lose).

    he keeps drawing them in till what they do creates the opportunity of Zugzwang, which means your in control and they lose, and this is the side that is not used to heads i lose tails you win… they are so used to heads i win tails you lose!!!!!!

  16. Artfldgr Says:

    The reason i put 6 items up is because of Clauswitz, on war,
    hint hint military academy

    Why do we need a strategy in the first place?
    Strategy is the necessary response to the inescapable reality of limited resources. No entity, regardless of size, has unlimited resources. Strategy, therefore, is about making choices on how we will concentrate our limited resources to achieve competitive advantage. All else follows from there.

    To excel at strategy, we must first understand what it is
    The talent of the strategist is to identify the decisive point and to concentrate everything on it, removing forces from secondary fronts and ignoring lesser objectives.

    Strategy and planning are not the same thing
    Tactics are the use of forces in a particular battle, while strategy is the doctrine of the use of individual battles for the purposes of war.

    The strength of any strategy lies in its simplicity
    Simplicity in planning fosters energy in execution. Strong determination in carrying through a simple idea is the surest route to success. The winning simplicity we seek, the simplicity of genius, is the result of intense mental engagement

    Competition is interactive, not static
    Some generals consider only unilateral action, whereas war consists of a continuous interaction of opposites … no strategy ever survives the first engagement with the enemy.

    Morale makes all the difference
    War is a trial of moral and physical forces by means of the latter. . . In the last analysis it is at moral, not physical strength that all military action is directed … Moral factors, then, are the ultimate determinants in war.

    Strategy requires a dynamic process
    We need a philosophy of strategy that contains the seeds of its constant rejuvenation — a way to chart strategy in an unstable environment.


    by the way, there is no russian gambit
    but there is a russian defense, petrov defense
    however there is a latvian gambit!

    It is one of the oldest chess openings, having been analysed in the 17th century by Gioachino Greco, after whom it is sometimes named. The opening has the appearance of a King’s Gambit with colours reversed. It is an aggressive but rather dubious choice for Black which often leads to wild and tricky positions.

    now, let me know if this (for obvious silly fun) doesnt sound like Trump…

    What is required to play the Latvian Gambit with any degree of success is a sharp eye for tactics and a mental attitude of total contempt for whatever theory has to say about it.
    — Paul van der Sterren, Fundamental Chess Openings

    As World Champ Magnus Carlsen often says “Having preferences means having weaknesses”

    Bobby Fischer vs Latvian Gambit 1.e4 d4 2.f5(Viktors Pupols) 1955

    Tactical players thrive on combinations and play for open positions (pawns in the center not locked) and play for complications where in general the winner will be the one who can out-calculate the other. Tactical players look for forcing lines that give their opponent no chance to escape material loss or checkmate. Tactical players live to detonate a position with a brilliant move that wins immediately.

    and dems? they are positional players
    Strategic or Positional players tend to favor closed games where there is more maneuvering. Endgames by their nature are very positional, and usually positional players enjoy endgames as well. Rather than winning with a combination, a positional player may saddle his opponent with a weakness and then play against the weakness for tens of moves to finally win. Throughout a game often these weaknesses are exchanged eg a backward pawn for space, then space for initiative and finally initiative for a winning endgame. Positional players like to grind their opponents down. Your play must be of the type to create abstract strengths

    One really good example of this is the famous game know as the “Inmortal game”

    The Immortal Game was a chess game played by Adolf Anderssen and Lionel Kieseritzky on 21 June 1851 in London, during a break of the first international tournament. The bold sacrifices made by Anderssen to secure victory have made it one of the most famous chess games of all time. Anderssen gave up both rooks and a bishop, then his queen, checkmating his opponent with his three remaining minor pieces. The game has been called an achievement “perhaps unparalleled in chess literature”

    have to go.
    too much anyway…

  17. John Guilfoyle Says:


    Hey! Big Maq!
    I call your questions & raise you Charlie’s!

    Especially the last one.

  18. Chester Draws Says:

    Let the portions of the Left in a frenzy play out their game. It does no harm at all to Conservatives.

    If it brings down Trump, then it brings in Pence. If the Left want that, they’re mental!

    If it doesn’t bring down Trump, then little harm done to Conservatism. The less Trump does, the better, from that point of view — other than appoint judges, he’s unlikely to do much conservative.

    Meanwhile it prevents the Democrats having an active policy of their own, and real issues remain unsolved.

    When Trump goes, all those attacks will have been wasted. It’s not like the next Republican candidate will be a Trumpkin.

  19. Sean Says:

    I used to think the way neo described in the op. Whenever a political scandal or kerfuffle came up, I’d say, “Hm, would I react any differently if it was my own side doing it?” That way, I told myself, I was keeping some sort of objective distance from it all.

    But then I realized, “Wait a minute, Dems stood by Bill Clinton during years of sexual harassment scandals, yet blew up over a video of Trump talking the same way about women that Clinton apparently does. They don’t care.”

    So now I’m happy to be partisan. Trying to be objective in an endlessly partisan conflict only de-fangs you.

  20. Sean Says:

    If Chelsea Clinton had done what Donald Jr. did:
    1. It wouldn’t have been reported, anywhere;
    2. In the unlikely event that it sneaked out into the popular media, it would have been treated as politics as usual. No one would be surprise. DNC backers would say that’s how the game is played; if you don’t like it find another game.


    If it garnered any attention at all, it would have been presented as a ho-hum step on her way to one day following in her parents’ footsteps. The NYT certainly never would have reported it.

  21. Dave Says:

    Let’s first get one thing clear, not one conservative thought NBC releasing the billy bush tape was unethical. every person who has the slightest grip of the political reality understand that digging up dirt on your opponents and releasing the findings is part of the game, everyone does it. It is the sudden goal posts moving by the democrats that upsets me more than anything. Why Hillary can dig up dirt on trump but not the other way around? Why Hillary can receive damaging intel on trump from foreign countries but not the other way around? Cold War is over, Russia is Soviet Union no more and we are not at war with them why it is okay to receive intel from anywhere but Russia? If putin is such an evil war criminal why didn’t they arrest him during summit20? Why it is okay for greenwald to receive criminally obtained leaks from Snowden for the purpose of publicly releasing them but don jr can’t get intel from a Russian lawyer? Why Hillary can do fu**ing anything, receiving money from foreign powers in exchange for favors or deleting all her emails but trump can’t do absolutely nothing. Remember Hillary is a political veteran, she knows the in and out of the business, everything she did she was well aware of what she was doing. not with don jr though, he knew nothing about politics, those were more like careless mistakes instead of criminal wrongdoing with deliberate intents like those Hillary had committed.

  22. Richard Saunders Says:

    Tucker Carlson and Mark Steyn had a hilarious take on this “controversy” on Tucker’s show Wednesday night.

  23. Dave Says:

    Why are conservatives so adamant in calling out the double standards of the MSM on their treatment of Hillary vs their treatment of trump, it is not simply a tu quotient rebuttal, it is an attempt to point out a philosophical problem.

    When there are two different standards, arguing whether something is right or wrong is futile. morality is merely a political partisan weapon because how can you determine if someone is guilty when the criteria that constitutes guilt is different for different people? When is trump subjected to a whole different set of standards than everyone else, arguing whether he did something wrong is a waste of time since the msm will simply bent the rules to convict him anyway.

  24. Terry Says:

    I feel so out of sync on this issue. I’ve been told I should be outraged by the MSM, which is no surprise – loved your analogy about a scrap of food showing up after the empty table that has been the Russia story.

    But I’m very curious about the Corner:


    Which is something I read occasionally (but honestly haven’t in years). However, I just don’t get this logic. I really can’t muster up much rhetorical anger even in the hypothetical situation (or real, in the case of Ukraine) case that Hillary did it.

    Especially, let’s say if an alleged… um… Russian working girl as mentioned in the Steele Dossier asked someone to approach the Clinton campaign on her behalf. Would the MSM freak out about collusion with a “kremlin connected hooker?” Obviously not. Would I be mad? Yes, at Trump.

    I just don’t get it. Am I too naive or jaded?

  25. JFM Says:

    HRC needed to carry the states of Pennsylvania and Ohio to win the presidency. As election day approached, she choose not to campaign in these two states. She didn’t carry these two states and lost the election. End of story.

  26. arfldgrs Says:


    Exclusive: [OBAMA] DOJ let Russian lawyer into US before she met with Trump team

    The Russian lawyer who penetrated Donald Trump’s inner circle was initially cleared into the United States by the Justice Department under “extraordinary circumstances” before she embarked on a lobbying campaign last year that ensnared the president’s eldest son, members of Congress, journalists and State Department officials, according to court and Justice Department documents and interviews.

    This revelation means it was the Obama Justice Department that enabled the newest and most intriguing figure in the Russia-Trump investigation to enter the country without a visa.


    tactical player is crushing the strategic players
    collectives are strategic, not tactical

    THEY are the ones that are bouncing around and setting fires that burn them

    people who never had to be tactical because collusion negates its need fall apart in tactical… thats why they dont let outsiders in…

    i know, because i am still where i work despite some idiots stratigic moves that backfire.. why? beacause this type of person what doesnt combine both, but sticsk to tha overarching plan does not see actions as a collection.

    they do not know tactics put together yeild a strategy in practice

    that their strategy for hillary and such died the first conflict
    that they have been losing TACTICALLY (presidency is four years not forty)

    and becuase they cant put strategic pressure (trump doesnt need a long term office, pension, senate place, etc), they are absysmall in tactics

    oh, i should point out that in this great game, the strategic thinkers are the keepers, who give out the tactics by coordinating and informing and telling. so a person named UUU knows to apply things towards the strategic end, but its the person that UUU gets coordination and plans from that they get their tactics from. without the handler, they are blind and quite idiotic on tactics, which is why wihtout collusion, and quid pro quo on the back end they would lose to real business people who are like MMA against the other sides WWF entertainment wrestling… yeah the entertainers can fight, and are big, and so on, but that dont prove that what they do is not a preplaned fake show for strategic reasons to economy… but put them in the ring with a real MMA person, and under real world MMA rules, and what happens s

    the fake strong fall
    and they do not have the tactical wearwithall to retreat

    their only strategy they are using is ONE
    Death by a Thousand Cuts

    translated variously as death by a thousand cuts the slow process, the lingering death, or slow slicing, was a form of torture and execution used in China from roughly 900 CE until it was banned in 1905. It was also used in Vietnam. In this form of execution, a knife was used to methodically remove portions of the body over an extended period of time, eventually resulting in death.

    Lingchi was reserved for crimes viewed as especially severe, such as high treason, patricide, or matricide. Some Westerners were executed in this manner. Even after the practice was outlawed, the concept itself has still appeared across many types of media.

    In the Yuan dynasty, 100 cuts were inflicted
    the Ming dynasty there were records of 3,000 incisions

    Teh democrat tactical plan now is to all act out with no clear strategy to try to counter the tactics of the other, but also, death by a thousand cuts in the abstract. like a million ticks hanging on a bull moose to make then anemic and die slowly

    this is not good as this is the same tactics as a routed enemy uses that is trapped and has no choice but to fight randomly and without any coordination from above.. it wont work this way in this kind of field as there is no real rmeoval of he others, so there is no real way such a move can work without that..

  27. arfldgrs Says:

    The whole BS really revolves around Rob Goldstone, the author of the email to Junior…

    everything else lines up with ALL parties telling some version of the truth… leaving out bits, but not much (like what was HER job before, who was her client, etc)

    but the real key was that it was Goldstone that dangled false information as to what information..

    seeking such information is not illegal
    getting such infornation is not illegal
    using it or not technically is not illegal (ask dan rather)
    And it gives the opportunity, if a game, spy or otherwise, to track down what would be operatives in out state (which given it was the Obama admin that had to give the lady special dispensation to come here in a more flexible way after the election as said to the BEAR (last name in english)).

    It was at a beauty pageant in Moscow in 2013 that the Trump’s met the Agalarov family. Rob Goldstone is the publicist for billionaire Aras Agalarov’s son Emin. Goldstone was also the broker for the meeting between Junior and Veselnitskaya. Then Agalarov’s are said to have close ties to Vladimir Putin and Goldstone has strong ties to the Agalarov’s.

    When you meet someone, you do not know their past or connections. no one ever guesses i have been connected to presidents, actors, bon vivants, etc

    THATS how photo ops haunt presidents.. they stand and have a picture with anyone, then years later, they find out they were smiling with Trump, or some child molester (weiner)

    It is asserted that Prevezon hired one Fusion GPS:
    [lets bypass how huge russian firms backed facebook, and zuckerman and how the FEC wants to go after drudge using Facebook as an example. but not going after facebook.. meanwhile, their reasoning shows they have never gone to drudge!!!! and that false reasoning of political ads on drudge report, being the basis of one cut for the death by a thousand cuts]

    Veselnitskaya is also said to have hired Fusion GPS.

    “Fusion GPS is the company behind the creation of the unsubstantiated dossier alleging a conspiracy between President Trump and Russia,” Mr Grassley wrote in the letter. “It is highly troubling that Fusion GPS appears to have been working with someone with ties to Russian intelligence – let alone someone alleged to have conducted political disinformation campaigns– as part of a pro-Russia lobbying effort while also simultaneously overseeing the creation of the Trump-Russia dossier.”

    remember PEE-GATE?

    guys, for years i said to watch what the organs of the other states do, and mostly got arguments posts were too long..

    now once again, unlike the red headed beauty that unseated the blond bombshell from history… and nearly got close to the clintons (nearly), escaped and became a russian star!

    well, they are front and center again, and no one knows what they are, what they like, who they prey on, how they get their money, what they do, waht their attitudes are and so on.

    their only reference is some very old spy movies
    some rotten pseudo tech and knowledge in documentaries

    And usually complete ignorance of the books out that reveal contents of the archives, and others stuff, which they conveniently leave out of everything until something like this FORCES them to do so!!!

    i could not get this examined no matter what was said, or example, but surely, they got you paying attention now with your ears up!!

    Veselnitskaya is listed as a managing partner at Kamerton Consulting.

    Eight days after meeting with Junior, somehow she is sitting immediately behind obama’s Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul during a Foreign Affairs Committee hearing:

    How exactly does that happen? How does a Russian lawyer defending a client being sued by a US Attorney wind up in this seat?

    when i was marrying my wife, my friend was marrying too, but his bride ran off, she turned out to be a chinese spy and generals daughter and dhs is trying to find her.. Daisy is her name… but the point is she was trying to get close to famous people like a ladder climbing, and use him or me to get access we could give if she worked with us…

    so.. how does this person prohibitted to come in, get special permission to come in, is part of the pee gate, the magnitsy stuff, the infiltration of beauty pagents for access (which worked), and appears in various places that make little sense given credentials compared to an average citizen who would have a bigger problem doing the same despute nothing unquestionable and being a citizen!

    The NY Times colluded with the Russians to win the Pulitzer Prize:

    The story by Andrew E. Kramer was one piece in a series about Russia that brought the Times the Pulitzer, but it “spells out the same narrative” as an article in the news website Meduza, according to BuzzFeed News. Kramer’s article focused on Aleksandr Vyarya, a computer programmer who fled Russia after refusing a government hacking job and whose experience was recounted in September 2015 by Meduza reporter Daniil Turovsky.

    “The only thing which really makes me angry is that he [Kramer] got this Pulitzer Prize,” Ivan Kolpakov, the editor-in-chief of Meduza, told BuzzFeed. “It was our exclusive reporting on Aleksandr Vyarya.”

    by the way, how could she make a deal at all on anything like the act and be able to offer any kind of quid pro quo if she wasnt a spy? or rather, an operative, as she wasnt spying in the classical hollyweird sense

    maybe its time to brush up on clausewitz and other things in the abstract? nah, better to guess… when life and liberty hangs in the balance, why study, how can you be some super someone if they find out you read a book and it wasnt your own invention from idea and whole cloth?


  28. Big Maq Says:

    Everyone here so far, but except for Ann, seem to be shooting off target and missing the bigger point.

    The Andrew McCarthy article (courtesy Ann) goes part way in making the same point.

    It is NOT that we have to come up with proof of something illegal, nor do we have to have a perfectly fitting analogy to get to the same point.

    It is that what has transpired is something we’d, rightly, very much see as completely wrong if it were a dem who did it.

    Not acknowledging, not demanding change, or attempting to deligitimize the issue / investigation, has consequences.

    As a stand alone, we might be able to countenance this trump jr episode.

    But it is one in a series of such things and that is just counting those related to trump’s (his team’s) behavior around the question of russian relations (including its attempts to influence this past election).

    As much as we’d like to “assume” (to put it mildly) that there is no “there there”, as if that will somehow avoid the question and the investigation, we are fooling ourselves.

    And, worse, we (as fellow citizens, as Congressional Republicans, etc) are all losing our own credibility in making any case for our concerns (wrt to how the dems operate), and for the policies we want. It will all be tied to, and overridden by blind support for trump.

    We all feel that the left and msm seem particularly energized this time.

    I attribute this blind aspect of our support for trump (starting with the election cycle from 2015) to be a key factor in what intensifies the opposition, and the feverish pitch at which it now occupies them.

    It very much mirrors our reaction to obama / clinton and the issues that piled up behind them, with no accountability.

    trumps flaws are obvious to everyone. Our denying them, being mute / ignoring them, just makes us look foolish and hypocritical.

    To continue down that path will surely drive greater effort to impeach trump, as we are not allowing any other “relief valve” from operating, nor demanding that trump change.

    Something will have to “give”.

    I am not sure we passed the point of no return, but I will guarantee our “no see em” approach is going places we don’t want this to go.

    Folks here can protest this all they like, and it may well be “unfair” for all kinds of reasons.

    But, let me suggest that the low relative GOP turnout, and the currently low approval numbers are telling us something, and without demanding change it foreshadows our future.

  29. Brian E Says:

    Big Maq,
    The approval numbers touted by the MSM, undercounts by as much as 8% Trump’s actual approval.

    In the most current period from June 15 to July 5, those surveying all American adults found President Trump’s job approval ranged between 36 to 38 percent, according to Real Clear Politics (RCP).

    But those who polled “registered voters” or “likely voters” recorded Trump approval numbers between 41 to 44 percent.


    According to Gallup, GW Bush’s second term average approval rating was 37%, so Trump’s isn’t all that out of whack, based on the incessant negative coverage of both Bush in his second term and Trump at this point.

    All is not lost. No need to abandon ship.

  30. Kyndyll G Says:

    Maq, the point is, Russia is not our enemy. There is nothing wrong with speaking to Russians, doing business with Russians or getting information from Russians. Because the left and its attack dogs, the media, decided on “Russian election meddling” as the excuse for Clinton losing the election, there has been a 24/7 attempt for the last nine months to pretend that there’s something inherently nefarious about “dealings” with Russia and Russians. Every time they can find any incident, no matter how trivial, in which Trump or someone associated with Trump (*gasp!* *horrors!*) interacted with a Russian, it’s treated as if it were a crime, when it’s not. It’s not every day that I agree with Artful, but his point is correct: this is a long-game attack of a thousand cuts, perpetrated against a political enemy.

    And yes, this WILL go on forever, as long as it continues to work.

    I’m not “blindly” supporting Trump. My position would be the same if this was happening to anyone. A political party and its operatives are attempting to destroy a person associated with the opposite political party by fabricating the illusion of wrongdoing where NONE EXISTS. If this does not chill you to your bones, there’s something wrong with you – not the rest of us who are bothered by this.

    The proper response to this “bombshell” is “So TF what?”

  31. Lizzy Says:

    My prior comment disappeared…So, I’ll just add that a lot of times it is hard to do analogies between Democrat and Republican behavior because they have lived by double standards for too dang long.

    Seriously, trying to compare a Clinton misbehavior to any Republican is like comparing a NY Yankees player to a little leaguer. Both can certainly misbehave, break rules, but they operate on a completely different playing field.

  32. Brian E Says:

    trumps flaws are obvious to everyone. Our denying them, being mute / ignoring them, just makes us look foolish and hypocritical.- Big Maq

    When the democrat party gets over their temper tantrum, their la resistance, and start acting like sane, rational adults. Then we can all sit around the table talking about President Trump’s flaws.

  33. arfldgrs Says:

    Brian E Says:
    July 13th, 2017 at 1:44 pm

    trumps flaws are obvious to everyone. Our denying them, being mute / ignoring them, just makes us look foolish and hypocritical.- Big Maq

    your points have no meaning as there is no such list of qualities required that these leftist dictate are qualities and others are idiots for following.

    they are controlling yuor thinking by controlling your thinking and permissability.

    see here

    Since the fall of the Berlin Wall, some 40 countries have built fences against 60 neighbours.

    so who is doing what defining what and all that?
    and who the heck is LETTING them and not only LETTING them but wanting them to impose them cause your so used to that FAKE securiuty

    its funny to complain no one has balls and you finally have someone to replace the perfect archtype alan alda whimy leftist girlie man… and your afraid

    cause like liberals you cant tell the difference between a wolf and a sheep dog, and you would rather have a wolf in sheeps clothing – than be afraid of your only protector

    you guys may not realize this
    but that man your beefing about and all that
    he is your only protector

    everyone else has failed since reagan..
    and even reagan could only do so much
    so failure really has been baked in since FDR

    this is a human frailty
    even the bible covers it…


  34. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    Trump is not perfect.
    He makes me cringe, sometimes.
    I don’t defend that.
    I defend that he appointed Gorsuch, Price, Sessions and a ton of other stuff that the Russia stuff is overshadowing by design of the left.

  35. arfldgrs Says:

    this is a human frailty
    even the bible covers it…

    and we suffer for not knowing the wisdom cause we decide no wisdom can come from any unlikely place. why else give your life to a better gruber? better obama? better stalin?
    why do you think academia and its crazy wacko stuff dominates now when before it didnt? because we accept that these are our better when the prior americans were equal before law, and free to be different so these were no better. in fact, they were OFTEN thought of as worse

    who did the shoa? ernst rudin, a man with humoungous acadmic credentials.. sanger? the despots and kids? the revolutionaries in most countries were the expendible students. no?

    Parable of the Mustard Seed
    He set another man before them, saying, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches.”
    — Matthew 13:31–32

    its not about small beginings (or its about more than that basic idea).

    its the idea that power, real power, does not have to have the trappings, the robes of pharasees, the outward games of democratic hiippocrates who want to be rewarded for stealing to give to others.

    its ALL there..

    but its the question..
    if god sent his son, why not in all his grandeur without any way to mistake who he is? why send him from small beginings? why not make him the child of pharoh, who upon taking office, changes the world? why make him the low? why not use nero?

    because all that you talk about is fakery, like marble columns. to come to talk to the powers that have taken up office is not to be heard, and to give them control of your lives and the message.

    ALL our heroes of the best saving graces are unlikely

    only at disney, harvard, yale, slums, backward thinking peoples are heroes what we want them to be.

    just think of how they treat high iq? they want the stuff, but dont want to pay for it, and will punish the producer if he isnt steve jobs but more withdrawn? why? because we WANT the hero in his blond hair, blue eyes, riding the horse (Even foreigners pick this type in studies)… saving things without having to bother us much.. and so much fun to watch.

    but is that the truth?

    because that is siding with the devil cause he is the most beautful of angels. right? after all the devil can quote scripture too when it suits him, no?

    the hero of the civil war? a drunkard who became president… William Tecuhmsah Sherman

    the president who took up the civil war and was most erudite, tall, think, ugly, wore a stove pipe hat, played horrid jokes.. including holding his brother upside down to put footprints on the ceilling… A Lincoln

    the most decorated man of WWI was a conceintious objector and bible man. taking 35 machine guns, killing at least 25 enemy soldiers, and capturing 132, mostly by himself with some help. Alvin Cullum York

    at the age of 19 for single-handedly holding off an entire company of German soldiers for an hour at the Colmar Pocket in France in January 1945, then leading a successful counterattack while wounded and out of ammunition. – each armed forces turned him down, he was TOO SMALL… his name? Audie Murphy the most decorated soldier of WWII

    he was on a ship, a lad.. A naval career began as a midshipman at 9 years old December 17, 1810. Serving for 60 years. when the War of 1812 came along, he was ready. by now its four years later at the age of 12 he had the rank of prize master – a ship captured by the Essex had to be brought to port, who better than a 12 year old boy? This was his first officers commission, and he ended up wounded after that. promoted to lieutenant in 1822, 1824, he was placed in command of USS Ferret, which was his first command of a U.S. naval vessel [want to do the math?] he became Americas Greatest Admiral of the Navy…

    Not liked by his contemporaries.. brusk, from a mother who of her period, wanted a son who would be famous, much like the marx brothers and others who had such dominating mothers.. having a lateral lisp didnt help, did it? being a short fat troll didnt help either… and a stutter, describing it in terms such as “severe” or “agonising”. he was an autodidact.. but he saved the UK from invasion, inspired the world to rise, and changed the future forever – Winston Churchill

    he was born, and his mom abandoned him. hard growing up with the name Leslie.. his new dad adopted him and gave him his new name.. as Republican congressman from Michigan, he married Elizabeth Anne Bloomer – and never anyone else.. he achieved office, unlikely, and one of C Mansons family nearly assasinated him – Gerald Ford and Betty his wife

    a man comes from europe, broke.. becomes a barber.. leaves to make fortune in gold rush, but doesnt realy. comes back working hard as a conceierge, and saves up. the flu comes, and kills him, but the 30,000 is left to his wife. she builds some properties and gets her son to do things, and to avoid banks not selling to the poor, self finances the loans. the son grows up and has made a small fortune about 2 milloin… he dies, and his son, grows up, takes over the business. parlays that into more than a billion dollars and rises to be president of the US


    the point here is that the world is not a movie, this is not central casting and the real people that do things dont act like TV and TV dont work in the real world… there is no before the show, or after the show to be worried about and all principals can be suspended at whim

    but it does make us think that ugly people cant sing any more (neither can pretty people, but we dont care, twerk it baby).. so its amazing to see that we got to hear roy orbison, or Susan Boyle as she has aspergers.

    or Temple Grandin, also aspergers…

    study history..
    ever compare what actors look like to the person they play from history

    christopher columbus, italian, in the hands of isabella..
    how nice, isabella has black hair, so does columbus
    (so much for taming of the shrew and the blonde sister)
    but chris had RED hair, as did isabella.
    [as did most of the royal family]
    and alexander the great? red hair. never casted that way

    because we see men TODAY thanks to media as having female qualities and red haired women being more like men. but knowing history, how many of the US revolutionaries had red hair? how many from russia? the twentieth centuries death toll were red heads fighting each other.. (just as easy to blame them as to blame the classics).

    the point is that all this reforms our view of the world and what should be rather than what IS.. yes the moon should always be full.. when you blast a keypad, it should know whether you want the locked door open, or you want the door to lock permanently based on yourneeds.. etc

    but in the real world, the moon is full one night.

    Do not disparage your help.. unlikely though it may be. it would be follish to send an ugly doctor a way, cause you want dr kildare to save you!!

    one last post today to lllustrate the issue of things being not what you want them to be, and how you miss them

  36. arfldgrs Says:

    A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

    A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

    The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

    As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

    The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

    The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

    A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

    Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

    When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

    And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”

  37. Ymar Sakar Says:

    I’ve noticed ever since I started immersing myself in politics over a decade ago that both left and right defend their side and attack the other for similar offenses. That’s human nature, of course.

    It is circle the wagons time and to defend the culture tribe.

    But pointing out flaws in Christianity and Westerners, Islam and Leftist allies of the New Secular World Order on the US Dollar Pyramid Illuminated Eye symbol by FDR and company, is normal. If human nature is not, then it isn’t normal.

  38. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Trying to win against the Left by adopting Alinsky, their election fraud methods, and everything else Lucifer gave to the Leftist alliance, may win you a few battles, yes. Strategically, you will lose just like Republic of Vietnam.

    The North Viets and Russians never did defeat America in a battle. Cronkite fooled Americans, FDR fooled Americans, Wilson fooled Americans. Americans can’t stop being fooled.

  39. Ymar Sakar Says:

    24 [a]After Saul returned from pursuing the Philistines, he was told, “David is in the Desert of En Gedi.” 2 So Saul took three thousand able young men from all Israel and set out to look for David and his men near the Crags of the Wild Goats.

    3 He came to the sheep pens along the way; a cave was there, and Saul went in to relieve himself. David and his men were far back in the cave. 4 The men said, “This is the day the Lord spoke of when he said[b] to you, ‘I will give your enemy into your hands for you to deal with as you wish.’” Then David crept up unnoticed and cut off a corner of Saul’s robe.

    5 Afterward, David was conscience-stricken for having cut off a corner of his robe. 6 He said to his men, “The Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lord’s anointed, or lay my hand on him; for he is the anointed of the Lord.” 7 With these words David sharply rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.

    8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, “My lord the king!” When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 9 He said to Saul, “Why do you listen when men say, ‘David is bent on harming you’? 10 This day you have seen with your own eyes how the Lord delivered you into my hands in the cave. Some urged me to kill you, but I spared you; I said, ‘I will not lay my hand on my lord, because he is the Lord’s anointed.’ 11 See, my father, look at this piece of your robe in my hand! I cut off the corner of your robe but did not kill you. See that there is nothing in my hand to indicate that I am guilty of wrongdoing or rebellion. I have not wronged you, but you are hunting me down to take my life. 12 May the Lord judge between you and me. And may the Lord avenge the wrongs you have done to me, but my hand will not touch you. 13 As the old saying goes, ‘From evildoers come evil deeds,’ so my hand will not touch you.

    14 “Against whom has the king of Israel come out? Who are you pursuing? A dead dog? A flea? 15 May the Lord be our judge and decide between us. May he consider my cause and uphold it; may he vindicate me by delivering me from your hand.”

    16 When David finished saying this, Saul asked, “Is that your voice, David my son?” And he wept aloud. 17 “You are more righteous than I,” he said. “You have treated me well, but I have treated you badly. 18 You have just now told me about the good you did to me; the Lord delivered me into your hands, but you did not kill me. 19 When a man finds his enemy, does he let him get away unharmed? May the Lord reward you well for the way you treated me today. 20 I know that you will surely be king and that the kingdom of Israel will be established in your hands. 21 Now swear to me by the Lord that you will not kill off my descendants or wipe out my name from my father’s family.”

    22 So David gave his oath to Saul. Then Saul returned home, but David and his men went up to the stronghold.

    *David’s fight against Goliath is pretty popular, but there were lots of other shenanigans going on behind the scenes after and before*

  40. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    2 Samuel 21
    7 But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan the son of Saul, because of the LORD’S oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul.
    8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:
    9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.

  41. Ymar Sakar Says:

    See, Bond knows how this game is played on a theological plane.

    But you intentionally didn’t put in the context even though it wouldn’t have taken up much space.

    Then David fled from Naioth at Ramah and went to Jonathan and asked, “What have I done? What is my crime? How have I wronged your father, that he is trying to kill me?”

    2 “Never!” Jonathan replied. “You are not going to die! Look, my father doesn’t do anything, great or small, without letting me know. Why would he hide this from me? It isn’t so!”

    3 But David took an oath and said, “Your father knows very well that I have found favor in your eyes, and he has said to himself, ‘Jonathan must not know this or he will be grieved.’ Yet as surely as the Lord lives and as you live, there is only a step between me and death.”

    4 Jonathan said to David, “Whatever you want me to do, I’ll do for you.”

    5 So David said, “Look, tomorrow is the New Moon feast, and I am supposed to dine with the king; but let me go and hide in the field until the evening of the day after tomorrow. 6 If your father misses me at all, tell him, ‘David earnestly asked my permission to hurry to Bethlehem, his hometown, because an annual sacrifice is being made there for his whole clan.’ 7 If he says, ‘Very well,’ then your servant is safe. But if he loses his temper, you can be sure that he is determined to harm me. 8 As for you, show kindness to your servant, for you have brought him into a covenant with you before the Lord. If I am guilty, then kill me yourself! Why hand me over to your father?”

    9 “Never!” Jonathan said. “If I had the least inkling that my father was determined to harm you, wouldn’t I tell you?”

    10 David asked, “Who will tell me if your father answers you harshly?”

    11 “Come,” Jonathan said, “let’s go out into the field.” So they went there together.

    12 Then Jonathan said to David, “I swear by the Lord, the God of Israel, that I will surely sound out my father by this time the day after tomorrow! If he is favorably disposed toward you, will I not send you word and let you know? 13 But if my father intends to harm you, may the Lord deal with Jonathan, be it ever so severely, if I do not let you know and send you away in peace. May the Lord be with you as he has been with my father. 14 But show me unfailing kindness like the Lord’s kindness as long as I live, so that I may not be killed, 15 and do not ever cut off your kindness from my family—not even when the Lord has cut off every one of David’s enemies from the face of the earth.”

    16 So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, “May the Lord call David’s enemies to account.” 17 And Jonathan had David reaffirm his oath out of love for him, because he loved him as he loved himself.

    18 Then Jonathan said to David, “Tomorrow is the New Moon feast. You will be missed, because your seat will be empty. 19 The day after tomorrow, toward evening, go to the place where you hid when this trouble began, and wait by the stone Ezel. 20 I will shoot three arrows to the side of it, as though I were shooting at a target. 21 Then I will send a boy and say, ‘Go, find the arrows.’ If I say to him, ‘Look, the arrows are on this side of you; bring them here,’ then come, because, as surely as the Lord lives, you are safe; there is no danger. 22 But if I say to the boy, ‘Look, the arrows are beyond you,’ then you must go, because the Lord has sent you away. 23 And about the matter you and I discussed—remember, the Lord is witness between you and me forever.”…
    [edited for length by n-n]

  42. John Guilfoyle Says:

    “It very much mirrors our reaction to obama / clinton and the issues that piled up behind them, with no accountability.”

    MAQ – Good Lord man put down whatever you are smoking…Nothing in this “teh Russians” tempest is comparable to O or HRC…You keep making that linkage & there is no such line to draw.

    Dead bodies piled up behind SecState Clinton. A weaponised DOJ & IRS attacked O’s perceived enemies (including the prog press). You cannot keep making that comparison & make me believe you are a serious intelligent human being.

    “Everyone here so far, but except for Ann, seem to be shooting off target and missing the bigger point.” Nope…Son the only one missing the point is you. But you keep on keeping on…

  43. Ymar Sakar Says:

    You edited out my comments on the passage, Neo, which was the entire point of the comment. If you had read through the passage, your edits would have been more accurate. I’ll make a better edit off my own comment.

    42 Jonathan said to David, “Go in peace, for we have sworn friendship with each other in the name of the Lord, saying, ‘The Lord is witness between you and me, and between your descendants and my descendants forever.’” Then David left, and Jonathan went back to the town.[b]

    *That was why David’s promise with Jonathan was important, and why it was even rare any royalty upheld their promises. The United States Presidents tend to be descended from royalty, so the standard also applies them, though usually they fail at it reading their lips about no new taxes.*

    During the reign of David, there was a famine for three successive years; so David sought the face of the Lord. The Lord said, “It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death.”

    2 The king summoned the Gibeonites and spoke to them. (Now the Gibeonites were not a part of Israel but were survivors of the Amorites; the Israelites had sworn to spare them, but Saul in his zeal for Israel and Judah had tried to annihilate them.) 3 David asked the Gibeonites, “What shall I do for you? How shall I make atonement so that you will bless the Lord’s inheritance?”

    4 The Gibeonites answered him, “We have no right to demand silver or gold from Saul or his family, nor do we have the right to put anyone in Israel to death.”

    “What do you want me to do for you?” David asked.

    5 They answered the king, “As for the man who destroyed us and plotted against us so that we have been decimated and have no place anywhere in Israel, 6 let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and their bodies exposed before the Lord at Gibeah of Saul—the Lord’s chosen one.”

    So the king said, “I will give them to you.”

    *Blood is only washed away by blood. Thus the blood of a god, Yeshua or Jesus of Nazareth, is superior than lambs or sacrifices of a human variety. Also people think a famine is like a diet, because of modern idiotic contextual absences*


    Elisha Traps Blinded Arameans
    8 Now the king of Aram was at war with Israel. After conferring with his officers, he said, “I will set up my camp in such and such a place.”

    17 And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

    18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, “Strike this army with blindness.” So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked.

    20 After they entered the city, Elisha said, “Lord, open the eyes of these men so they can see.” Then the Lord opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria.

    21 When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, “Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?”

    22 “Do not kill them,” he answered. “Would you kill those you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master.” 23 So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel’s territory.

    Famine in Besieged Samaria
    24 Some time later, Ben-Hadad king of Aram mobilized his entire army and marched up and laid siege to Samaria. 25 There was a great famine in the city; the siege lasted so long that a donkey’s head sold for eighty shekels[a] of silver, and a quarter of a cab[b] of seed pods[c] for five shekels.[d]

    26 As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, “Help me, my lord the king!”

    27 The king replied, “If the Lord does not help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor? From the winepress?” 28 Then he asked her, “What’s the matter?”

    She answered, “This woman said to me, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we’ll eat my son.’ 29 So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him,’ but she had hidden him.”

    30 When the king heard the woman’s words, he tore his robes. As he went along the wall, the people looked, and they saw that, under his robes, he had sackcloth on his body.

    *Famine is great for diets right, check the last paragraphs. Also, priests and prophets of a powerful god can call fire, water, and everything else apparently in a D and D spell book, down upon human mortals. Now that’s a trick people will see once more before this century’s end*

About Me

Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.

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