July 18th, 2017

Praying for the president

It’s come to this:

“Theological heresy” to pray for Trump?

Wouldn’t it depend on what you prayed? I thought prayers were often on the order of prayers for guidance and wisdom. Wouldn’t that be an especially appropriate prayer for even (or maybe especially) your political enemies?

Rev. Barber is a political activist, a “progressive” who had previously been called by historian and professor Timothy Tyson “the most important progressive political leader in this state (NC) in generations” who “built a statewide interracial fusion political coalition.” I don’t doubt for a moment that he’s a “progressive political leader.” But he also is a pastor, and although I’m neither a pastor nor particularly knowledgeable about them, I cannot imagine that saying that a president should not be prayed for is good Christian theology. And how can it be “heresy”? That term refers to a matter of doctrine and there’s no issue of doctrine here that I can see.

Reverend Barber didn’t stop there, either. As you might imagine, he had a lot more to say, although most outlets are focusing on that sound bite. Here’s some of the rest:

“When we have this extremist Trump Republican agenda that takes health care, transfers wealth to the greedy, that’s hypocrisy and sin,” he told Ms. Reid. “Seven hundred billion dollars, Joy? You haven’t seen that kind of transfer of wealth on the backs of bodies of people since the days of slavery. Claiming to care about life, but then passing a bill when you know thousands will die — 22 million people, poor, working people will be hurt — that is hypocrisy and sin.

“Passing bills that hurt children, the disabled and veterans — that is sin. That is hypocrisy,” he continued. “And what leaders ought to be doing is challenging the president, challenging [Senate Majority Leader Mitch] McConnell, and challenging [House Speaker Paul] Ryan and challenging these senators and others and not trying to appease them. Instead, they’re acting like priests of the empire rather than prophets of God.”

The usual leftist stuff. And I think perhaps the Reverend was looking in the mirror when he spoke that last sentence.

58 Responses to “Praying for the president”

  1. expat Says:

    Isn’t lying also a sin?

  2. Lizzy Says:

    Wow. So many things wrong with what he’s saying.

    I’ll leave the theology to others, but let’s just take a moment enjoy how suddenly it’s OK to use religion for political purposes now that a Republican is in the White House. I’m sure the Little Sisters of the Poor, Hobby Lobby, Chik-fil-A, and various Christian wedding service providers will be thrilled that once again the Left finds it OK to use religion to demonize political foes!!

  3. Dobbins Says:

    Apparently the only form of government that will satisfy Reverend Barber is Communism.

    Of course that route stumbles over the Opiate of the Masses, denial of a higher authority, etc.

    The Rev, is simply a Progressive rabble-rouser with a clerical collar, nothing more, and nothing less. I’m sure Time Magazine and MSNBC worship him, but he should leave economic policy to man, and leave the spiritual stuff to God.

  4. parker Says:

    Egads, what an insufferable bore. I have no interest in reading any more of this diatribe, but I hope he mentioned the millions who suddenly became homeless on the morning of 11/9/16.

  5. Bill Says:

    My antipathy for Trump is well known, but I don’t have the right to not pray for him. This was written by someone who had to deal with emperors like Nero – and he still urged Christians to pray for their leaders.

    (I figure if I spent as much time praying for Trump as I do complaining about him, well, I know I’d be better off at the least. He might be too)

    1 Timothy 2:1-2

    First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. (ESV)

  6. Brian E Says:

    “I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. 2 Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:1-4 NLT

  7. Brian E Says:

    Once you give the left an inch– they don’t ever, ever give it back, do they.

  8. Bill Says:

    Now – please keep my previous comment in mind: one of the things personally horrifying for me during the past year is the way certain evangelicals “leaders” (Robert Jeffers, Jerry Falwell Junior, Franklin Graham) have supported Trump almost blindly.

    The church must learn, but may never learn, that letting itself become entangled of the slime-engine of a political party ends up hurting the church, destroying its witness to the world.

    In other words, the Kingdom they are supposed to be fighting for isn’t the Republican Party, and the treasure they are supposed to be setting their heart on isn’t political power and money.

    Seeing Jeffers’ idolatrous first Baptist paean in music to Trump and MAGA nearly made me lose my lunch.

    Pray for our leaders. Speak truth to our leaders. Engage the culture, build the Kingdom. But aligning yourself, as a Christian leader, to a guy like Trump, no matter how much you might like his politics, is a big mistake.

  9. M J R Says:

    Lizzy writes (3:47 pm), “I’ll leave the theology to others . . . .”

    I’m no theologian, except maybe a wannabe amateur theologian, but I’m not gonna let this one go by without a little MJR sermonizing, picking up where neo leaves off [“even (or maybe especially) your political enemies”]. I’ll let none other than Christ Jesus do the talking, as recorded by Matthew:

    “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”

    That’s KJV Matthew 5:44 for those keeping score.

    “Pray for them which despitefully use you.” Got that, Reverend Barber? Even you, Reverend Barber.

    Especially you, *Reverend* Barber.

  10. Brian E Says:

    It’s so frustrating how a liberal misuses facts– in fact it’s downright immoral.

    The 22 million Barber refers to, includes 18 million that may “lose” their coverage because they’ll drop their plan when the individual mandate is repealed.

    I think Neo linked to an article by Avik Roy that showed regardless of the bill the Republicans proposed, house bill, senate bill, it didn’t matter– the effect was that 22 million would lose coverage.

  11. huxley Says:

    While web surfing a few days ago, I ran across something called “The Jesus Movement” percolating in the Episcopal Church. I wondered if the Anglimergent group (don’t ask) from ten years ago had taken hold and found a less clumsy name. But no.

    The Episcopal Church has a new black Presiding Bishop, Michael Curry, and “The Jesus Movement” is just something he made up as the hot new mission statement for the Episcopal Church.

    In other words, instead of grassroots — think astroturf. Yeah. That’ll work.

    https://www.episcopalchurch.org/page/jesus-movement.

    Looking over the TJM 12 points, the first four are vague handwaving about evangelism and God knows the Episcopalians need to evangelize. But the meat is in the remaining eight points which are all race and climate change agenda items like “Tell the truth about church and race,” “Rewrite the narrative,” “Grow local eco-ministries,” “Pursue eco-justice initiatives at church-wide and local levels,” and “Convene conversations around climate and faith.”

    Cuz that’s what Jesus did.

  12. Griffin Says:

    This is also a prime example that while the left may hate Trump what they really hate are conservatives. The things that this guy lists about transfer of wealth and the 22 million people and all could just as easily be things being proposed by President Ted Cruz or President Marco Rubio or even President Jeb Bush. The irrational hysteria of the left and there Never Trump pals is really about ninety percent hatred for conservatives mixed with ten percent of pure anti Trump vitriol.

  13. Griffin Says:

    ‘the effect was that 22 million would lose coverage’

    And of course that morphs into all those people somehow dying according to some of these people.

  14. Lizzy Says:

    I’ll add that in the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, it is common for the current president and other leaders to be included in the selected Prayers for the People. Always thought it was obvious that when you are not particularly thrilled with one of them, that you could at least pray that God guides them to do his work. That’s how I could pray for Obama all those years…

  15. John Guilfoyle Says:

    It’d be interesting to know 2 facts about this guy:

    1. What’s his 1040 look like…gross income, deductibles, tax payment & then net at the end of the day?

    2. How much does he give to bonafide charity? If he only supports his own ministry, gives to guys who give back to him…

    Fat, famous, well-coiffed clergy…sorry…smells like wolf in sheep’s clothing to me.

  16. DNW Says:

    Titus: …a bishop, as a steward of God, must be without offense: not arrogant, not short-tempered, not a drunkard, not violent, not desiring tainted profit, but instead: hospitable, kind, sober, just, holy, chaste, embracing faithful speech which is in agreement with doctrine, so that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine and to argue against those who contradict. …

    Romans :
    Admonish them to be subordinate to the rulers and authorities, to obey their dictates, to be prepared for every good work, to speak evil of no one, not to be litigious, but to be reserved, displaying all meekness toward all men. For, in times past, we ourselves were also unwise, unbelieving, erring, servants of various desires and pleasures, acting with malice and envy, being hateful and hating one another. But then the kindness and humanity of God our Savior appeared. And he saved us, not by works of justice that we had done, but, in accord with his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and by the renovation of the Holy Spirit …

    James: For the nature of all beasts and birds and serpents and others is ruled over, and has been ruled over, by human nature. But no man is able to rule over the tongue, a restless evil, full of deadly poison. By it we bless God the Father, and by it we speak evil of men, who have been made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so! Does a fountain emit, out of the same opening, both sweet and bitter water? My brothers, can the fig tree yield grapes? Or the vine, figs? Then neither is salt water able to produce fresh water. Who is wise and well-taught among you? Let him show, by means of good conversation, his work in the meekness of wisdom. But if you hold a bitter zeal, and if there is contention in your hearts, then do not boast and do not be liars against the truth. For this is not wisdom, descending from above, but rather it is earthly, beastly, and diabolical. For wherever envy and contention is, there too is inconstancy and every depraved work.

    1st Peter : … such is the will of God, that by doing good you may bring about the silence of imprudent and ignorant men, in an open manner, and not as if cloaking malice with liberty, but like servants of God. Honor everyone. Love brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

  17. huxley Says:

    I’ll add that in the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, it is common for the current president and other leaders to be included in the selected Prayers for the People.

    Lizzy: I heard a lot of wacky stuff when I went to progressive Episcopal churches in San Francisco, but on Sundays we always prayed for the president, even when he was George W. Bush back then.

  18. CV Says:

    Apparently the good reverend considers Trump the enemy and believes that the president is persecuting him and others.

    He should brush up on the Gospel, because Jesus was pretty clear about what we are required to do in that situation:

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. – Matthew 5:43-48

  19. parker Says:

    Well, as an agnostic I can not subscribe to any single religion. I simply do not know or presume to know, the answer to who we are or where we come from or where we are going. What I do know is if there is a god or gods, I want nothing to do with any god or gods that promote hatred. We mere humans can easily conjure up enough hatred to fill the galaxy.

    And, if there is a god/gods that will judge me after death, I will be content in knowing I was a good man who loved and was loved. That is all I know how to do.

    But if some SOB seeks to harm me or mine I will try to get behind him or them and shoot he/them in the back. One thing I do not believe in is the concept of a fair fight or playing by rules of engagement. Those seeking to engage me or mine will receive no quarter or mercy. Unconditional surrender is required before execution.

  20. AesopFan Says:

    Lizzy Says:
    July 18th, 2017 at 5:41 pm
    ..you could at least pray that God guides them to do his work. That’s how I could pray for Obama all those years…
    * * *
    Amen.
    Perhaps the prayers of all the faithful prevented him from doing even worse.

  21. huxley Says:

    It appears something has gone very wrong with American Black Christianity.

    I don’t know how typical Rev. Barber and Rev. Wright — Obama’s pastor and mentor — may be but if you want Christian heresy, Barber and Wright are serving it up.

    Here’s Andrew Sullivan’s sycophantic post on the wonders of Obama’s conversion to Christianity:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2008/03/what-obama-saw-in-wrights-church/218895/#article-comments

    Note that the key Obama quotes do not mention God, Jesus, love, forgiveness, resurrection, or redemption, but instead present some warmed-over Exodus-liberation story with the blacks standing in for the Old Testament Jews fighting Pharaoh.

    Which isn’t nothing but it’s not a Christian conversion.

  22. huxley Says:

    I don’t know what goes on with blacks these days.

    Currently my two closest neighbors are black. I talk with them and we are cordial, but we aren’t inviting each other over for drinks and I don’t see that as a slam on any of us.

    I suspect that we are all wary and weary.

  23. Fen Says:

    He may be an adherent of Black Liberation Theology (Obama and Rev Wright) that “will only accept the love of a God that participates in the destruction of the white race”. Their own words, not mine.

    If I was a christian and a liberal, I would be ecstatic that President Trump was asking God for help.

  24. Micha Elyi Says:

    Did I miss a mention of 1 Timothy 2, particularly verses 1 through 5? In that portion of the Christian Scriptures were are taught to pray for our political leaders, taught by a man who had been imprisoned and would later be beheaded by his political leaders.

  25. huxley Says:

    Michael Elyi: Yes, earlier Bill and Brian E explicitly mentioned Timothy.

    I didn’t bother quoting scripture because it is so brain-dead obvious that Christians pray for their leaders and their enemies if they are truly Christian.

    I don’t consider Rev. Barber, Rev. Wright or Obama true Christians. They are leftists who saw Christianity as a swell vehicle for getting their Black Power/Marxism on.

    For the record I don’t advertise myself as a true Christian these days, but I do remember what Christianity entailed when I was a believer and I largely honor it.

  26. Surellin Says:

    Old joke. It’s 1953, and Stalin has just died. A priest and his brother are talking, and the brother asks the priest what he has been doing recently. The priest says, “Praying for Stalin”. The brother explodes, “What! He wasn’t even Christian!”. The priest says, “He is NOW”.

  27. Pete of Freo Says:

    “Seven hundred billion dollars, Joy? You haven’t seen that kind of transfer of wealth on the backs of bodies of people since the days of slavery.” Well, at least since the days of Elon Musk.

  28. Michael G Jarman Says:

    Remember Duke Lacrosse? The “Rev” was at the forefront of the lynch mob that would have put three innocent men in jail for 20+ years. Very Christian.

  29. Donald Sensing Says:

    And by coincidence, I already had planned for this coming Sunday to preach on Romans 12.14-24. Maybe I need to mail them the passage and my sermon thereof.
    >>>
    14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

  30. Vader Says:

    Oh, there’s heresy here, all right.

    Both Christ and Paul taught us to pray for our enemies. Teaching that one should not is definitely a heresy.

  31. Bill Says:

    On a side note, the issue was raised above about black theology. One thing I never realized as I questioned “why does it seem so many black churches have liberal theology” was this: it wasn’t until relatively recently (last few decades) that conservative seminaries admitted black students.

    Let that sink in. Talk about hoisting ourselves on our own petard.

    Regarding praying for and blessing, not cursing, our enemies. What a revolutionary idea. Seriously. But how much is that practiced? A regular commenter on another thread here suggests “rat poison” as the proper treatment for Muslims, for example.

    This guy is wrong for saying we shouldn’t pray for Trump. But Internet comments threads (including this one, which is still one of the best) don’t practice “bless and do not curse” anymore than the subject of this post.

  32. Frog Says:

    Timothy Tyson is at my old school, Duke, as a visiting professor of “American Christianity and Southern culture [sic]” at Duke Divinity School.
    Here are remarks he made to the social work graduates at Duke in 2009: https://www.faithandleadership.com/content/walk-light
    with praise and glory to Obama.

    Mamas, don’t send your children to Duke, even if you can afford it. Founded by the Methodist Duke family, the Duke Chapel now hosts Muslims. Satanists will likely soon follow.

    Though tenured,I left Duke when the metamorphosis started, for a non-academic career. Black Studies and the lacrosse scandal came much later.

  33. Frog Says:

    Oops! Tyson’s was for commencement at Chapel Hill, not Duke. You remember Chapel Hill, where the entire Afro-Am Studies program was found to be a fraud to award totally unearned academic credits to its black athletes?

  34. Don Fulano Says:

    Progressives have been advocating their “long march through the institutions” for awhile (and having some success), but it’s more than a little troubling to see them making advances in the Church.

  35. Axeman Says:

    Even were I a whole lot more socialist than I am, I am not a liar to myself. The true poor these days almost wholly pay nothing in taxes. No money is taken from them. Taxpayers pay for everything, and a tax cut is giving them a portion of the money that was taken from them back.

    Jesus wants us to sell our possessions and give money to the poor (but there will always be poor, says Jesus), but its never with the narrative that it was stolen from the poor–or it rightfully belongs to the poor.

    Look at the way that Jesus refers to his inheritance under the Father. He calls them “riches”. There is only one condition to you sharing the riches, and that’s as He pleases. There’s no promise to give the riches in Heaven to anybody who lacks because their share is unequal. (Jesus, speaking in terms of riches, again: “[T]he one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.”)

    I doubt that Jesus would model them as riches if he simply believed that you did not have some discretion over your wealth–nonetheless what we have is granted by God and should be volunteered back to his glory, by those who rightly see themselves as stewards and benefactors of the Lord’s provision and grace.

    However, the government takes taxes for “wholly secular purposes”. The Lord may work through government programs, but given their mandate not to work toward his glory, I don’t think paying taxes can be argued to have the same mandate as giving the Lord his due.

    Thus I think there is a serious doctrinal disconnect between the principle that all you have is God’s grant to you, and you shouldn’t be selfish with it, and give what you can back to his glory AND your wealth being at the disposal of the government to spread around as Man sees fit, even if a trickle goes to the needy as I believe the Lord would have. Mobsters long contributed to local charities, but that didn’t make paying protection money a tithe.

  36. neo-neocon Says:

    Bill:

    That’s quite an analogy you made. Do you really equate a blog commenter with a Christian minister?

    Now, of course, we all should practice the highest standards, not just ministers. But a minister speaking publicly and saying that it is heresy to pray for Trump is speaking in his capacity as a Christian minister. Commenters here are not.

    That said, death threats here are not okay, and I remove them. However, although that commenter said something with which I disagree and something I disapprove of, it was not a death threat. Therefore I let it stand.

    I don’t remove all offensive comments. Every day there are plenty that I find offensive. I try to draw the line at a place that allows robust debate. I try not to censor any more than I must.

  37. I R A Darth Aggie Says:

    If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

    Matthew 18:6

    Bill posits:

    But Internet comments threads (including this one, which is still one of the best) don’t practice “bless and do not curse” anymore than the subject of this post.

    I would note that Someone Higher Up the Chain of Command said something like to whom much is given, much is expected. The man is cleric, it is not unseemly to ask him to behave as such or to recall the words of his LORD.

  38. Bill Says:

    “That’s quite an analogy you made. Do you really equate a blog commenter with a Christian minister?

    Now, of course, we all should practice the highest standards, not just ministers. But a minister speaking publicly and saying that it is heresy to pray for Trump is speaking in his capacity as a Christian minister. Commenters here are not.”

    I understand Neo. For the record, I disagree with the minister, as I stated above.

    I do think that asking people not to pray for Trump is an un-Christian stance. I also don’t expect non-Christians to abide by Christian teachings (such as love your enemies). So I’m not saying the comments threads on the internet need to be without conflict. I just thought it a little weird that people are saying this guy needs to follow that when the original command was to all Jesus-followers, not just ministers. It’s for all of us who claim Christianity, not just “that guy” or “those people”.

    So, if you’re asking me if I think that suggesting that we should target the adherents of a certain religion for death is worse than suggesting we shouldn’t pray for Trump, yes, I do. Anyone want to argue with me?

    However, I never said it should be censored. I also don’t think Frog meant it really really (at least I hope it was just hyperbole). We’ve all done that, me no less than anyone else.

  39. Sonny Wayze Says:

    Michael G Jarman:

    “Remember Duke Lacrosse? The “Rev” was at the forefront of the lynch mob that would have put three innocent men in jail for 20+ years.”

    If you mean Sharpton, one of the things that convinced me very early on that it was a frame-up was that Rev Al showed up, surveyed the situation and skedaddled. If Sharpton doesn’t hang around to stir stuff up, then the situation must *really* stink.

  40. huxley Says:

    On a side note, the issue was raised above about black theology. One thing I never realized as I questioned “why does it seem so many black churches have liberal theology” was this: it wasn’t until relatively recently (last few decades) that conservative seminaries admitted black students.

    Bill: Interesting, if true. I would like to see a cite.

  41. huxley Says:

    Bill: Here are some quotes I collected in 2008 from James Cone, a primve mover of black liberation theology and one of Rev. Wright’s claimed inspirations. Cone himself considered Wright’s church as the best church embodying of Cone’s theology.

    * Black Theology is the theological arm of Black Power, and Black Power is the political arm of Black Theology.

    * Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.

    * Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

    * Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man “the devil.”

    * Black theology must say: ‘If the doctrine is compatible with or enhances the drive for black freedom, then it is the gospel of Jesus Christ. if the doctrine is against or indifferent to the essence of blackness as expressed in Black Power, then it is the work of the Anti-Christ.’ It is as simple as that.

    Whatever this is, it ain’t Christianity, any more than what the Christian Identity boys preach on the white supremacist side.

  42. huxley Says:

    At stake in this topic is not liberal theology, but liberation theology and even more radical — black liberation theology.

  43. neo-neocon Says:

    huxley:

    I also noticed the lack of a cite. I tried to check out the assertion Bill had made, but I couldn’t find anything that spoke to it. I did find that there have been black American Catholic and Episcopal priests (for example) for a long long time, but I have no idea whether those are the denominations Bill would call “conservative.” And of course blacks have been prominently featured in certain historically “black” denominations that served the black community when society was more separate in general (see this for a history of that), and they are still a powerful force today.

    My impression of the reason there are many liberal black ministers is that it reflects the makeup of the black community. There are also a lot of conservative black ministers. In general, I have long thought of the black ministry and black churches as being more of a conservative force in black society than a liberal one.

    And I just found some support for that last sentence in The NY Times, of all places. Hard to tell, because they don’t list black churches as separate (I know “Southern Baptists” is quite a different thing from the black Baptist Church, but this is not my field of expertise to say the least).

  44. Bill Says:

    It’s anecdotal from speaking with my pastor who posed the question to an African American pastor friend of his. That pastor replied that for many long years AAs were not allowed in SBC seminaries. For an example of when change started to happen, Tony Evans, who is well known in evangelical circles, is AA and was the first AA to get a doctorate from Dallas Theological seminary. That was pretty recent, one generation ago (1970s).

    By conservative, I’m mainly speaking of the tribe I know (Southern Baptists).

    I don’t have clear lines to give you on this (I haven’t had time to look it up) but the point of the AA pastor was clear: you want AA’s to have conservative/evangelical theology, but within living memory they weren’t even allowed in your seminaries. My previous example of Tony Evans is a good one (1970s!) – it means that generationally AAs have been excluded from some of the more conservative seminaries – of course, times have changed. What I don’t have at the moment is firm dates on when things loosened up. I’m guessing (and it is ONLY a guess) in the 1960s, when America began the long road to desegregation.

  45. huxley Says:

    Bill: Time passes and the 1970s is not exactly recent anymore.

    When you wrote, “last few decades,” I thought you meant the nineties or late eighties.

    When you first said, “conservative seminaries,” I assumed you meant all conservative seminaries — which would include a fair number of Catholic seminaries.

    But if we are talking conservative white Southern Baptist Convention seminaries not admitting blacks until the 70s, I am scarcely surprised.

    In any event we are not talking liberal black ministers here. We are talking radical Black Power ministers for whom Christianity is a vehicle for their radical racial agenda.

    As Iowahawk wrote:

    1. Identify a respected institution.
    2. kill it.
    3. gut it.
    4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

  46. Bill Says:

    Huxley – you are right. I spoke too soon before marshaling much supporting evidence. But still, the 70s is barely a generation back. You don’t have a lot of black pastors who’s grandfathers were trained formally as theological conservatives. For a variety of reasons, but one being they weren’t welcome. This is a generational problem that will take awhile to get through

    I categorically reject liberation theology as you’ve described above. I doubt I’d have much in common theologically with the minister who is the subject of this post

  47. DNW Says:

    “huxley Says:
    July 19th, 2017 at 2:30 pm

    Bill: Here are some quotes I collected in 2008 from James Cone, a primve mover of black liberation theology and one of Rev. Wright’s claimed inspirations. Cone himself considered Wright’s church as the best church embodying of Cone’s theology.

    * Black Theology is the theological arm of Black Power, and Black Power is the political arm of Black Theology.

    * Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him….”

    Some time ago, I took the trouble to download the web pages of the good reverend Wright’s site.

    One line that struck me was the claim that he was leading an “Afrocentric” church.

    This is kind of interesting since most, even nominally Christian churches, would probably claim that they were Christ centric.

  48. AesopFan Says:

    Surellin Says:
    July 19th, 2017 at 7:13 am
    Old joke. It’s 1953, and Stalin has just died. A priest and his brother are talking, and the brother asks the priest what he has been doing recently. The priest says, “Praying for Stalin”. The brother explodes, “What! He wasn’t even Christian!”. The priest says, “He is NOW”.
    * * *
    Better late than never.

  49. AesopFan Says:

    On the Rat-Poison-Gate scandal: caustic hyperbole is a staple technique of most verbal fisticuffs.

    Some of us take such comments seriously but not literally.

  50. AesopFan Says:

    Just a small observation: you don’t have to go to Divinity School in order to understand and implement basic Christian doctrines — a lot of 8-year-olds manage that quite well — but you do get training in your specific denominational interpretations and the practicum of ministerial work.

  51. AesopFan Says:

    DNW Says:
    July 19th, 2017 at 5:51 pm

    One line that struck me was the claim that he was leading an “Afrocentric” church.

    This is kind of interesting since most, even nominally Christian churches, would probably claim that they were Christ centric.
    * * *
    C. S. Lewis, not surprisingly, addressed this situation in The Screwtape Letters.
    The “x-centric” formulation is very ancient; only the “x” changes.

  52. huxley Says:

    DNW: Trinity United (Rev. Wright’s church) has cleaned up its website so there’s not so much Black Power wackadoo, but you can still find “The Black Value System” available:

    https://trinitychicago.org/the-black-value-system/

    My favorite of the 12 Points:

    8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness.”

    Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

    Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:

    * Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

    * Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

    * Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of “we” and “they” instead of “us.”

    * So, while it is permissible to chase “middleclassness” with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method – the psychological entrapment of Black “middleclassness.

  53. huxley Says:

    Of course, one can find lots of unsettling subcultures of religion, racial thinking and hate, but they are usually small and marginalized.

    However, Trinity was Obama’s chrysalis for emerging as a powerful black politician and from there president of the US.

    Obama was an official member of this church from 1992 to 2008, when the world discovered Rev. Wright was a race-baiting, America hater and Wright became too much of a liability for Obama’s campaign.

    Obama sat in the pews of that church and listened to race hate and America hate for sixteen years and never made a peep about it. In fact Rev. Wright became his mentor and family friend. The title for Obama’s book, “The Audacity of Hope,” came from a Wright sermon.

    I find this astonishing.

  54. Sharon W Says:

    I take exception to Bill’s understanding of the black church and conservative theology. When Bonhoeffer was here prior to WW2, he worshipped with the black church, finding it to be the only place (in his opinion) where sound theology was to be found. It was a point of instruction to me that the progressive strain that is manifest in Christianity as the “SJW” in our present time was alive and well in New York by way of the mainline churches and the well-connected. (See Fosdick, Rockefeller & Luce.)

  55. huxley Says:

    Sharon W: I knew Bonhoeffer spent important time in America. I didn’t know he worshiped in a black church, so I read some web pages on it this morning.

    I’m ambivalent about Bonhoeffer. In my Christian days I had an extended discussion with two Bonhoeffer advocates who were keen on Bonhoeffer’s cheap vs. costly grace framework.

    Which I understood in terms of Bonhoeffer’s life, but I’m not sure how well it applies to regular Americans.

    The “costly grace” Christians seemed to be playing a game of “my grace is superior to your grace.”

  56. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Another Liberation theology wannabe and false prophet.

    They don’t want you to pray for Donald Trum because prayer works based upon the intercession principle of the Divine Counsel.

  57. Ymar Sakar Says:

    12 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[q] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.[r]

    18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.-Probably some guy world pays little attention to any more.

    If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

    7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[p] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    But the Bible said “judge not lest you be judged”! Yea, and that’s why people read it and do not understand what’s in it. See, it didn’t say you won’t be judged for the crime punishable by death. It said the way in which you judge the crimes of humans and angels, will be returned back unto you. But as a human, they don’t understand that, they just quote dogma as if it the Bible was jesus’ second coming already.

    This would include all these American mortals that think lawsuits and fighting the Left using Lucifer’s knowledge from Alinsky, is “Winning”. Heh

    Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you! 9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment.

    Apparently SJWs and Ctrl Left existed back then to fight too.

    True and False Prophets

    15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    True and False Disciples

    21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘You never knew me. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    The Hebrews loved honey, milk, lamb sacrifice, and plant grafting analogies. Hard for a modern 21st century city person to understand, I know. Generally speaking, if the sons and grand sons of a church are good, then the Doctrine/Gospel was correct. If they are not, then probably not.

  58. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Black Liberation theology has to do with a biblical rewrite of his story.

    Namely, what happened to Ham, Esau, and Noah.

    The theology is mostly that white people (some of you guys here) are devils or fallen angels, because white people were akin to the angelic race.

    Ham was cursed with blackness, which caused a change in his DNA, but is setup as the real inheritor of the human race by black theology. In the same fashion that Arabs consider Ishmael to be the firstborn son that should inherit. It’s an old pre medieval inheritance problem. Who in the family gets what. Those from Ishmael, says Ishmael is pre eminent and thus should be given military and economic power. Those from Ham, says Ham should have been raised up or was raised up (and all you white devils were lowered).

    It’s pretty well crafted Lucifer’s Own, like ALinsky did in the US. Africans/blacks are considered lower on the IQ scale anyways, so not hard for an entity that has existed and grown for 6000 years to fool them.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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