August 8th, 2017

Nazis vs. Communists

When I first saw this tweet, I thought it very clever:

Difference between Nazi and Communist is when you say how horrible Nazis have been, they don’t say “Well, real Nazism has never been tried.”

It brought forth a wry smile from me.

But then I started thinking about the distinction. Because of course, both have been tried, and in fact the trial of Communism was a whole lot longer in terms of time. And in terms of suffering and death, although the geographic distribution and victims was somewhat different, the Soviets probably won that sweepstakes from the Nazis in terms of sheer numbers killed.

So, why the difference in attitudes of people these days towards each system? Communism is a theory with a philosophy that is more likely to appeal to naive but well-meaning people who just want everyone to get along, no one to be poor, and for us to be just one big happy family with no one so much richer or poorer than anyone else. The clearly demonstrated fact that this particular vision works very poorly in real life, and that its leaders tend to be of a very different mindset, is the source of both its appeal and the claim that the ideas are good but it’s just that somehow the wrong leaders got control of the ship.

Some of the original Nazis may have considered themselves to be do-gooders in the sense that they would do good for Germany and rid the world of people they considered problematic. But that’s not exactly a vision that appeals world-round. No, on its face (and deep down as well), Nazism sounds pretty repellent, or perhaps very repellent, to the majority of people. Even its vision seems dystopian rather than utopian, and instead of appealing to the “can’t we all just get together” aspirations of people, it appeals to their “I’ll smash you and I’ll come out on top” desires.

So although Nazism still has its adherents, they are a more isolated and less numerous group. And yet, I bet somewhere, somewhere, there’s a neo-Nazi who says that the problem with German Nazism was that Hitler went too far, too fast, or some such thing, and that if a more attractive and patient leader took charge Nazism would rise again.

57 Responses to “Nazis vs. Communists”

  1. n.n Says:

    They are both historically Pro-Choice. That is they indulge in [class] diversity or denying individual dignity and selective child or rejecting intrinsic value (e.g. “final solution”).

  2. Ray Says:

    The Nazis, Communists and Fascists were all socialists of one sort or another. People are always telling us that socialism would be a great success if only the right people were in charge. Remember the adulatory stories about what a great success socialism was in Venezuela? As Frederic Bastiat pointed out, “The Seductive Lure of Socialism Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation. This is the seductive lure of socialism.”

  3. Mike K Says:

    Most Nazis today are not aware of the history and deny the nature of their philosophy. For an example, I offer the Google VP of “Diversity” who was an active Hillary election worker.

    White men are the new Jews.

  4. Dave Says:

    If a race of people blaming another race of people for all of their problems is textbook racism with Nazi blaming the Jews the prime example, why isn’t it racism when the democrats encourage the blacks to blame the Whites for all of their problems? People reject BLM because the psychology behind it is very Nazi like.

  5. AMartel Says:

    You mean like “well, at least the trains ran on time” people or the “politics is personal” “vote your race/gender/sex preference” people? So many parallels between Nazis with their punitive vice grip on the culture, their tendencies to purge, lie, cheat, and steal, their general disregard for individual humanity and today’s left. So why don’t Nazis self-identify where other socialist goons don’t hesitate? I think it’s because the Nazis lost, plain and simple, and losers don’t get to write history. Other socialist paradises have failed spectacularly but were allowed to rebuild, at great expense to the rest of us, on their own terms. Watch Venezuela. Maduro will be blamed for screwing up Chavez’s paradise.

  6. AMartel Says:

    Also, there are still plenty of people (esp in Europe and the UK) who, while not outright Sieg Heiling Nazis, sidle up to being Nazi apologists by decrying the extent of the punishment that was inflicted on the Germans after WWII, feel sorry for old Nazis who get dug out of the nether regions of the world and put on trial, and other things of this nature.

  7. Griffin Says:

    Communists have always had the benefit of willing propagandists in the western media whereas Nazis not so much. The Nazis never had a high profile version of Walter Duranty working for their side.

  8. John Guilfoyle Says:

    “…the Soviets probably won that sweepstakes from the Nazis in terms of sheer numbers killed.”

    I read just this week (apologies can’t find the link atm) that the Chinese Great Leap Forward probably knocked off around 150 million…middling estimate. So Mao runs the Soviets a good race for 1st in the “victims killed” category.

    But what’s 20-50 million among friends?
    And yet folks still wear those Che shirts…Lord have mercy.

  9. Ralph Kinney Bennett Says:

    The Nazis had better uniforms. And, since we’re on that subject, what’s with those North Korean officers’ hats!

  10. tom swift Says:

    Adolf Hitler was Time Magazine’s “Man of the Year” in 1938.

    Uncle Joe Stalin was “Man of the Year” in 1939 and 1942 … Obviously Time was on a roll for a while.

    Heinrich Himmler gave a speech to some of his Einsatzgruppen (the guys who’d massacre people the regular Wehrmacht officers and men wouldn’t) about the difficulties of remaining the “good guys” when engaged in their line of work.

    Conclusion: Some people have some very strange ideas.

  11. RohanV Says:

    I think it’s the lack of an equivalent to Karl Marx. There’s no founding intellectual associated with Nazism as there is for Communism. So you can say that Stalin subverted Marx’s vision and it sounds plausible. Marx is the prophet, and Stalin the politician.

    In contrast, Hitler is both the prophet and politician of Nazism. If Das Capital is the bible of Communism, then Mein Kampf is the bible of Nazism. Thus whatever Hitler did is the “true” nature of Nazism.

  12. neal Says:

    I knew an old guy back in the day.
    Ukranian peasant with the tattoo, only survivor of his family from the camp.

    The Nazis wanted to kill the peasants and capture the fields and grain stores, to starve out the Communists.

    After the war, the Communists captured the fields and grain stores, and starved out the peasants.

    That survivor managed to get to America. Worked for the railroad, shipping tons of grains to Germany and the Soviet Union.

    He had no love for the ruling classes.
    He did save some remant of what used to be his people, from a distance.

  13. Big Maq Says:

    Ray has it right. There really is not difference.

    Neal’s story of the Ukranian peasant makes that precise point.

    For the average joe, who is not hooked in to the power center (i.e. almost every single one of us), whatever the label (communist, national socialism, etc.) it won’t look all that different.

    Your freedom is rather limited, and your fortunes are highly tied to how much you curry favor with your overlords (vs merit of your work, fruits of your own savings, astute risks and investments).

  14. Mike K Says:

    There’s no founding intellectual associated with Nazism

    How about Nietzsche ?

    Some prominent elements of his philosophy include his radical critique of truth in favor of perspectivism; his genealogical critique of religion and Christian morality, and his related theory of master–slave morality;[5][14] his aesthetic affirmation of existence in response to the “death of God” and the profound crisis of nihilism;[5] his notion of the Apollonian and Dionysian; and his characterization of the human subject as the expression of competing wills, collectively understood as the will to power.[15] In his later work, he developed influential concepts such as the Übermensch

    Pretty close to a Prophet.

  15. Trimegistus Says:

    Nazis were heretic socialists. They refused to acknowledge Moscow as the Holy City of Socialism. American Leftists were (and still are) orthodox socialists. Orthodox believers always hate heretics.

  16. RohanV Says:

    For Nietzsche, Wikipedia says:

    After [Nietzsche’s] death, Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche became the curator and editor of her brother’s manuscripts, reworking Nietzsche’s unpublished writings to fit her own German nationalist ideology while often contradicting or obfuscating his stated opinions, which were explicitly opposed to antisemitism and nationalism. Through her published editions, Nietzsche’s work became associated with fascism and Nazism;[16] 20th century scholars contested this interpretation of his work and corrected editions of his writings were soon made available.

    I don’t think the link is as strong as it is with Marx. Nietzsche may have influenced the founders of Nazism, but he’s not the unambiguous founder in same manner.

  17. chuck Says:

    > “can’t we all just get together”

    Oh, I think the Nazis had that, it is part of the fascist philosophy to eschew class conflict. It was just that `we` was a bit narrower, essentially limited to the nation or ethnic group. Thus, no Jews, or Slavs, who even Engles supposed were the natural enemies of the Germans. There is a romantic ethnic streak running through both Communism and Nazism, but it showed up differently in the two. All those ethnic dance troupes from the USSR were lip service to that ideal.

  18. Dave Says:

    if politics is a ribbon with the extremes of the two political spectrum at the very ends, if you curl up the ribbon and tape the two ends together in a circle, the extreme right and the extreme left are right next to each other almost equal. kind of like if you look at the world on a piece of paper Russia and Alaska are a world apart, but in reality they are right next to each other.

  19. M J R Says:

    Dave, 5:07 pm — “if politics is a ribbon with the extremes of the two political spectrum at the very ends, if you curl up the ribbon and tape the two ends together in a circle . . .”

    I fear we end up with a Mobius strip — totally one-sided.

  20. Paul in Boston Says:

    Dave, sorry, people say that and it’s wrong in this case. Lenin, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were all socialists. They were all Marxists too. They were all men of the hard left.

  21. Somebody the Liberal Says:

    Ok–I’m not going to wade into the morass of the fascism as a right wing phenomenon debate again (and it absolutely is a right wing phenomenon, intellectually, which of course has no morale bearing on modern American conservatives, but I’m doing it again…)

    But, I really have to take umbrage with Mike’s comment. Nietzsche absolutely was not a fascist, and to suggest otherwise reveals that you’ve probably never read an actual text by Nietzsche.

    There are plenty of people who served as the intellectual, philosophical precursors and cheerleaders of fascism–Rosenberg, Heidegger, D’Annunzio, etc. This is all well established history. Nietzsche only ends up on people’s lists when they haven’t actually read Nietzsche and find superficial similarities in some of the terminology.

    Nietzsche’s death of god wasn’t a celebration, it was a desperate attempt to figure out how a society could find meaning once God stopped playing a central role in its self-conception. Fascism isn’t Nietzsche’s triumph, it was his tragedy–the sort of thing you get when a society lacks meaning and looks for it in the wrong places.

  22. Dave Says:

    it is not what one believes that defines him, but what he does. Marxists and Nazis might believe they believe in complete opposite things but their action, methods and strategies are all the same. both rely on groupthink, propaganda and violance to achieve their goals.

  23. PaoloP Says:

    Don’t forget that several feminists advocate for the massive reduction of male population to 30% or even 10% of the total. And they are enjoying successful careers in academy.

  24. OldTexan Says:

    The Nazi’s were kind of a perfect storm, end of the Monarchy in 1918, really messed up democracy with hyper-inflation and a radical shift in public morals from super uptight to almost anything goes in the 1920’s with lots of confusion all through Europe with the world wide crash of 1929.

    Germans, along with a lot of other Europeans, did not like the Jewish people who kept themselves apart, intelligent and some of the owning substantial assets. Germans did like to work hard with lots of rules and order from above and enter a political party the Nazi’s with help from the rich who liked order and support from the various vet groups and rowdies who were willing to take to the streets and beat the crap out of anyone who disagreed, especially the communist who had gained traction and taken control, at times, of various cities.

    The Germans, smart and organized became a formidable world power in just a few years by cheating on the restrictions of WWI, making agreements with the Russian Communists and running over their neighbors. With Hitler pulling off one bloodless take over after another, working propaganda to his people to the max and giving them back their national pride they kept on expanding, and getting away with it.

    When I lived there for three years, 50 years ago I loved hearing the stories of the older Germans and almost all of them remembered the 1930’s fondly when everyone had jobs again and they had some wonderful parades and get togethers. When pushed a bit they would admit it was kind of bad what happened to the Jews but that was and afterthought and anti-semitism was still there.

    Those of us working intelligence work keeping an eye on the East Germans and other satellite countries understood at the time it might have been a good idea to keep some separation because the energy in that country post war as they rebuilt from rubble with our help was incredible. Wonderful, smart, hard working, friendly people who might get drunk and want to invade Poland which is how you get Nazis.

    Communism is a world wide simplistic movement, work according to you ability and take according to your need and sing songs of peace and brotherhood which never, ever works in practice because people. It’s always a mystery that real super wealthy people want super commie socialism as long as they stay on point at the top with all of their goodies.

    Having said all the stuff above I do like Germans and my last four years before I retired and I worked for a German company.

  25. DNW Says:

    I have spent some number of years now visiting and commenting on your blog.

    And despite knowing better, and understanding the reality behind the reason, I have nonetheless always had a wan hope, if no other, that one day, finally, the mystery of your shirt-tale relatives’ commitment to leftism would be revealed: It would be their commitment argued with syllogistic clarity, and described in terms of a genuine psychological insight into the anthropological convictions of the believer.

    But, I don’t think that that is going to happen.

    I don’t think that Marxists or leftists themselves, apart from rare partial cases, much bother with trying to justify their “brotherhood” proclamations or the basis of the moral claims they advance in the context of a pointless and totally “material” reality.

    They just do it … like they are simply expressing some kind of fuc*ing mindless urge they have.

    If there were such a leftist person, one who could argue moral claims in the way I would hope to see, one would think I would have encountered him by now … after 15 or 20 years of searching.

    But if you think about it, that would first require we share the same ontological reality ( or a view of what passes for it) … and it is obvious we simply don’t

  26. DNW Says:

    “Those of us working intelligence work keeping an eye on the East Germans and other satellite countries understood at the time it might have been a good idea to keep some separation because the energy in that country post war as they rebuilt from rubble with our help was incredible.”

    There might be, and it is just a stray thought, something alike in the presuppositional framework of the stereotypical German and Jew.

    There is this … social … we …. us … something or other, that they take to be real, and grounded in a way no good stereotypical cowboy or Texan would see as operative.

    They seem to share a kind of something … that is invisible to outsiders … or at least invisible to Atlantic fringe anrcho-mentality outsiders of the kind that made a smallish but significant portion of the founding population of this country.

    That is why Nazis look to be such a joke to real Americans. They look, pardon the expression, but I must, like a bunch of barely latent homoerotically inclined fa**ots addicted to parades and uniforms. Dangerous of course, but a definite kind apart from men who believe in personal honor.

    To some extent, the stereotypically assigned reluctance of Jewish males to kill “each other” over slights, seems to kind of function in the same way, though from perhaps a different starting point.

    Germans talk about blood and soil … the Jews about a “people”.

    I had to be taught that other people were real, and that they counted … and only as individuals, because the ultimate reality, assigned them value … not because they were “effen “brothers” of some kind.

    This queasy-making kind of “brotherhood” they are into is an odd concept to a self-respecting redneck. Maybe it is something the Skull and Bones candidate kind of boys can understand. But I certainly don’t

  27. DNW Says:

    It’s spelled: “shirttail” GEEZ!!!!

    Thanks spellcheck! LOL

  28. Ray Says:

    somebody the liberal said “fascism as a right wing phenomenon debate again (and it absolutely is a right wing phenomenon, “.
    Fascism was developed by Benito Mussolini, an Italian socialist and Communist. It was the Italian version of Communism because Mussolini had a problem with Communism. How do you have a proletariat revolution when you don’t have any proletariat? Mussolini decided no proletariat revolution was needed, so Fascism was just Communism lite.

  29. Ymar Sakar Says:

    We will see what it is like in a few years.

  30. neo-neocon Says:

    OldTexan:

    Jews in Germany prior to the war were HIGHLY assimilated. They were not persecuted and murdered by the Nazis because of lack of assimilation in Germany. They also constituted less than one percent of the prewar German populace, and were almost entirely situated in the big cities.

  31. Matt_SE Says:

    Nazism was national socialism. Communism was international socialism. Nazism was always destined for backlash because it is fundamentally exclusionary. It binds the tribe together at the expense of all outsiders.

    Ironically, the religious parallel to Nazism is Judaism. Communists are universalists in their appeal, more akin to Christians.
    (of course, I’m only analyzing them on these extremely narrow grounds. The similarity ends there)

  32. Sean Says:

    No one’s ever tried the “true” version of anything – Communism, Nazism, Christianity, Islam, etc. That’s why we have to keep trying to get it right, no matter how much misery we inflict on others in the attempt.

  33. Sean Says:

    Nietzsche would have hated the Nazis and Hitler never read Nietzsche.

    Nietzsche was a lot closer in temperament to the Davoisie than German nationalists. He thought the latter were scum.

  34. Richard Aubrey Says:

    The issue is not the difference, but why libs never call Bush or Trump “Stalin”. The libs have been swapping spit with the commies for so long that they don’t see the problem.

  35. Tim Turner Says:

    Nazism was a newer and Nationalist branch of the philosophy. It’s real adherents were only ever Germans.

    Even if there was a Polish Nazi, or a French Nazi, that ended quickly when he German Nazis overran their country. As Nazism is both Nationalistic and imperialistic, inherently Nazis from other countries must be enemies.

    Communism, on the other hand, is borderless. Communist countries worked mostly together to advance their shared ideals.

  36. Lizzy Says:

    Nazis had that whole genetic purity thing, such as the Action T4 program, that is particularly repellent. Communists end up killing their people, too, but the eugenics and ghoulish experiments were creepy.

  37. JK Brown Says:

    Communism is not a theory, it is a fantasy. Even so, it wasn’t the communism that was bad in the Communist countries, it was the socialism.

    And if we take professor von Mises at his word, then the world has never seen communism as Stalin defined it, just the socialism.

    “What Stalin calls socialism corresponds by and large to Marx’s concept of the “early phase” of communism. Stalin reserves the term communism exclusively for what Marx called the “higher phase” of communism. Socialism, in the sense in which Stalin has lately used the term, is moving towards communism, but is in itself not yet communism. Socialism will turn into communism as soon as the increase in wealth to be expected from the operation of the socialist methods of production has raised the lower standard of living of the Russian masses to the higher standard which the distinguished holders of important offices enjoy in present-day Russia.”

    von Mises, Ludwig (1947). Planned Chaos

    But I’m sure the wealth created by the socialist methods of production will materialize any day now. Venezuelans hope.

  38. Dave Says:

    If the pseudo version of communism could cause such damages and destroy so many lives, can you imagine what Disasters can the real communism cause?

  39. blert Says:

    Somebody the Liberal Says:
    August 8th, 2017 at 5:56 pm

    Ok–I’m not going to wade into the morass of the fascism as a right wing phenomenon debate again (and it absolutely is a right wing phenomenon, intellectually, which of course has no morale bearing on modern American conservatives, but I’m doing it again…)

    &&&

    An article of conjecture is NOT an argument.

    The bizarre idea that Hitler, and Nazism has ANY so-called right wing bona fides has been DESTROYED.

    The so-called right-wing Hitler wouldn’t even tolerate giving the exiled Kaiser a house guard. He spent his entire tenure attacking the Church and the Temple… ALL of them.

    His repression of all religions is totally aligned with Stalin and Mao.

    ( Weirdly — or perhaps not — Adolf did not repress Muslims — who followed the world’s most prominent anti-religion. Think of it as paleo-Nazism. )

    EVERY right-wing political faction has embraced religion — in what amounts to a love fest.

    Franco, the Nationalist, was plainly on the right. He was NOT a Fascist — though he was supported by el Duce’s boys. He was an anti-Internationalist — anti-Communist — in sum — a Nationalist. When pressed to join Adolf’s crusade against Bolshevism — he gave Adolf such a pain that Adolf compared the experience to having a root canal — without pain killer.

    It’s notable that Franco loved the Church — and making Hollywood movies. The list is almost endless.

    In contrast, the fanatical Left ALWAYS moves to destroy religion — and history.

    The latter being the focus of Orwell’s 1984.

    Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot,… they all fit this mold.

    Muslims are Big into the destruction of history and culture, too.

    No wonder Islam ‘vibed’ with Hitler.

  40. Sean Says:

    Why not just call Nazism what it is: right-wing socialism. As opposed to the left-wing version that Somebody and his Antifa friends tout.

    I mean, it is the right wing of something, right? It’s just that the political spectrum it’s on the right of is itself a Left spectrum. Pretty sure that’s how Stalin intended it when he arbitrarily defined fascism as ‘rightist.’

  41. FOAF Says:

    “I bet somewhere, somewhere, there’s a neo-Nazi who says that the problem with German Nazism was that Hitler went too far, too fast, or some such thing, and that if a more attractive and patient leader took charge Nazism would rise again.”

    Here’s a little thought experiment. In May 1941 Hitler had the world at his feet. He had not only lifted Germany from the ashes but gotten his revenge for the humiliation of WWI replete with surrender in the same railcar. Suppose at that point he had said to himself “A two-front war is crazy, I’m not going to invade Russia until I can defeat England or at least maneuver them out of the war”. Bonus – if he had been able to get England out of the war the US probably would have stayed on the sidelines. He may have even been thinking along those lines – remember the weird Rudolf Hess affair?

    Now you can probably get all kinds of arguments about why he “had” to invade Russia at that point. But did he? The Soviets were not less evil or cruel than Hitler. They outlasted him because they were at least somewhat more patient and less reckless.

  42. Tim Turner Says:

    Looking at the Nazis, the Left wing-Right wing perspective really breaks down.

    In the modern U.S. we basically have two big-tent political movements. All the other movements and parties are suborned into these by the mechanics of our voting system. There are actually dozens of uniquely different political ideologies that aren’t really “right wing” or “left wing”. This is slightly more accurate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#/media/File:Nolan_chart.svg

    You can’t understand Nazi policy by comparing it to Republicans or Democrats. These two parties are a loose collection of several dozen ideas, which for various reasons have become polarized between the parties.

    But those party philosophies are not all-inclusive.

    A summary of the Nazi party platform (http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm) is thus:
    1. An end to the international punishments imposed after WWI (including removal of international oversight, rebuilding of the German Military, and reunification of historical Germany)
    2. Colonialism (which didn’t cease being a common viable international policy until after WWII)
    3. Preferential treatment for the German race.
    4. Exclusionary treatment for especially inferior races.
    5. Restoration and enrichment of German cultural and legal traditions.
    6. Reformation of corrupt government and press (i.e. establish pro-German propaganda).
    7. Blue-collar Socialism.

    I phrased this from a slightly pro-Nazi point of view. Obviously, no mention of death camps here. Certainly there is no German “race”, nor “inferior races” and “corrupt government and press” depends on your point of view, etc, etc, etc. I’ve mixed some of my reading of Mein Kampf in there as well.

    No major party would really embrace Colonialism today, not in the way it was really understood then. Certainly, we “liberate” other countries with democracy and see them as trading partners for raw materials, but we don’t consider them as subject states for exporting our poor to.

    What Nazism really is is Nationalist Socialism, not “right-wing” socialism. That would be like saying “right-wing leftiness”. It also differs from Communism, in that Communism sees itself as the final destination of all Socialist movements and looks to total equality as an end goal. Nazism, as far as I am aware, saw socialism as the final destination, with universal financial security. They just wanted a healthy middle class with no poor people, not some jumpsuit-wearing utopia.

  43. OldTexan Says:

    Neo: Until the Nazis came into power the Jews were assimilated into German culture in many ways, education, medicine and as military during WWI. However Hitler used the Jews, Bankers, merchants and other with high achievement as a hatred focus point from his rantings in the 1920’s against modern art, theatre and Jews destroying the eugenics of the German race.

    The Nazis made laws restricting the ability of Jews in Germany to teach in University, practice medicine and forced them to sell a lot of what they owned in order to get papers to leave Germany. The Nazis dialed things back a bit for the 1936 Olympics and then by 1938 went full bore with Kristallnacht breaking windows of Jewish own businesses and destroying Synagogues.

    You are right, up through the 1920’s Jewish people were fully integrated and an important part of German society but when Hitler came into power in 1933 the various new laws to restrict Jewish participation were enacted. It has been my honor to know some of those who left early and some with numbers on their arms who survived concentration camps and shared their experience of never seeing other family members again.

    The Nazi movement to one of the best educated most modern countries in the world with nice hard working people and opened up and sold pure evil as the dream of leading the German speaking nations to become the leaders of the world. Stealing from Jewish population helped the Nazi government finance themselves in the 1930’s. Some say it also was short sighted because had they kept their assimilated brilliant scientists like Einstein who was in the US visiting in 1933 and did not go back to Berlin when Hitler came to power, they would have been much more formidable.

    As the Germans took over other countries there was no shortage of men willing to join their regional SS divisions and assist in rounding up the Jewish population, in France, Scandinavian countries, Poland, etc. And as a last item, during the 1930’s the Nazis had a sizable numbers of people attending their get togethers here in the USA. http://mashable.com/2016/07/27/nazis-madison-square-garden/#iwS5kACeIaqO

    Sorry about going on so much on this but it is my feeling that many people can be sold all sorts of evil crap as being good for the folk and history is full of nations killing off millions for the common good.

  44. DNW Says:

    “neo-neocon Says:

    August 8th, 2017 at 8:14 pm

    OldTexan:

    Jews in Germany prior to the war were HIGHLY assimilated. They were not persecuted and murdered by the Nazis because of lack of assimilation in Germany.”

    That is an important point that is often overlooked when people start reflections on this matter from the standpoint of overall holocaust numbers.

    Doing research many years ago into the population numbers, I was shocked to learn that there were – off the top of my head now – only about 630,000[?] Jews in Germany, as you also point out.

    The modern history of ideologically based antisemitism there seems to have had something to do with various late 19th century German movements which included nudism, neopaganism, and a host of other weird race and sex stuff; including occultism.

  45. DNW Says:

    “FOAF Says:
    August 9th, 2017 at 3:31 am

    “I bet somewhere, somewhere, there’s a neo-Nazi who says that the problem with German Nazism was that Hitler went too far, too fast, or some such thing, and that if a more attractive and patient leader took charge Nazism would rise again.”

    Here’s a little thought experiment. In May 1941 Hitler had the world at his feet. He had not only lifted Germany from the ashes but gotten his revenge for the humiliation of WWI replete with surrender in the same railcar. Suppose at that point he had said to himself “A two-front war is crazy …”

    You are not the only one doing these hypotheticals. As I was reminded upon viewing a slew of WWII documentary series I had not seen since childhood ( some good, some not so good) plenty of German’s both in the military and out asked the same questions. Why even invade Poland?

    He had the Rhineland back, Austria and Germany were united, he had stolen the Sudetenland without a shot.

    At that point he probably had a Germany about equal in size to the Kaiser’s if my guess that Austria is a rough territorial replacement for Silesia is about right.

    Homicidal maniacs are never satisfied

  46. arfldgrs Says:

    i waited for over 40 posts before i added anything

    see
    The Soviet Story 2008
    a latvian documentary that shows the soviets and nazis were the same until they werent… but they are the same which is why there is no way to easily distinguish them OTHER than outward surface uniform designs and symbology choices..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO6-nuk0UhA

    it was interesting to watch the liberals in soho when it was in the theaters… their attitudes changed greatly as they saw what they never saw or even knewe or believed.

    for us latvians, we know they are the same
    we made and were part of both

    the whole documentary goes over the whole thing neo just brought up.

    anyone other than me see this?

  47. arfldgrs Says:

    So, why the difference in attitudes of people these days towards each system?

    Nazis lost, communist infiltrated all parts of american life especially willi munzenberg starting to buy publishers, buy movie production companies, commercial production companies, backed movies that had socialist themes, started things like the antifascist league and more (now antifa)

    been telling you the answer to that question now for 10 years.
    i even pointed out that we have lots of cartoonish movies about hating the fascists (who added capitalism to their marxism as a hybrid bastard of the purity of communism, which was a lie the leaders told the people as that sets them up as the deciders within the system)

    Münzenberg was the first head of the Young Communist International in 1919–20

    He was a leading propagandist for the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) during the Weimar Era [helping to create the distability the RUSSIANS were going to use to take over germany… but instead, hitler with his jewsih question answer to marx and the fulfillment of the 1849 Magyar struggle calling for a holocaust to exterminate the people who are too far backwards to move forwards and progress)

    Through his famous Berlin organization Internationale Arbeiter-Hilfe (International Workers’ Aid or IAH, also known as Worker’s International Relief or WIR), based in Berlin, Münzenberg was reputed to have sent millions of dollars’ worth of aid to the Soviet Union during the famine

    In 1924 he launched Arbeiter-Illustrierte-Zeitung, which became the most widely read socialist pictorial newspaper in Germany

    Münzenberg worked closely with the Comintern and the Soviet secret police (known as the Cheka in 1917–22 and as the OGPU in 1922–34) to advance the communist cause internationally.

    this is where you will find out the answer to NEO question
    you alweays had the answer… just dont want to read it
    more fun to make it up without any knowlege of this!!!

    In order to broaden the Comintern’s influence, Münzenberg created numerous front organizations he termed “Innocents’ Clubs”

    Friends of Soviet Russia
    the World League Against Imperialism

    the International Worker’s Relief Fund

    The Workers International Relief (WIR) — also known as Internationale Arbeiter-Hilfe (IAH) in German and as Международная рабочая помощь (Mezhdunarodny Rabochy Komitet Pomoshchi Golodayushchim Rossii − Mezhrabpom) in Russian — was an adjunct of the Communist International initially formed to channel relief from international working class organizations and communist parties to famine-stricken Soviet Russia. The organization, based in Berlin, later produced films and coordinated propaganda efforts on behalf of the USSR.

    “These people have the belief they are actually doing this themselves. This belief must be preserved at any price.”

    The front organizations, in turn, helped fund the acquisition of the Münzenberg Trust, a collection of small newspapers, publishing houses, movie houses, and theatres in locations around the world

    and there you have the answer…
    you learned from the movies films, newspaper articles and such that the nazis never had a chance to do to the extent that the soviets did here…

    he was the first limosine liberal
    Münzenberg, referred to by some as the Red Millionaire, used the businesses to pay for a limousine and an elegantly furnished apartment for himself

  48. arfldgrs Says:

    After directing the Comintern’s handling of the Sacco and Vanzetti case in 1925
    [you didnt know that? this man was everywhere and yet, most people if not all i have ever met, have forgotten him, erased for his crimes against stalin, and kept out of the people of the usa psyche]

    Münzenberg took charge of the League against Imperialism, created in Brussels in 1927

    brussels… you know, where marx was
    where the european soviet, i mean the european union
    i mean the european soviet union leadership is

    The League against Imperialism (French: Ligue contre l’impérialisme et l’oppression coloniale; German: Liga gegen Kolonialgreuel und Unterdrückung[1]) was a transnational anti-imperialist organization in the interwar period.
    [transnationalist… ie world communism… ie. word games]

    go here and read, and NOT A peep about munzenberg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_against_Imperialism

    if munzenberg was in charge of theorganization, why isnt he mentioned at all in the wiki? why dont you know about him?

    because his history is the history of how you got gamed
    even if you didnt knwo youw ere gamed or even considered it!

    its very convenient that the history of the man men and women who did things is NOT shared so that people dont have the proof they want to be able to act… as munsenberg says…

    “These people have the belief they are actually doing this themselves. This belief must be preserved at any price.”

    most do this very well.. so well they want to make up answers and dont want to learn about this part of history.. a history that says their ideas are for naught.. in fact, how you think and what you think is greatly influenced and tainted by this stuff..

    Münzenberg toured the northeastern and midwestern United States on a June 1934 speaking tour with Welsh Labour figure Aneurin Bevan, Babette Gross and SPD lawyer Kurt Rosenfeld. Speaking at well-attended rallies at venues like Madison Square Garden and the Bronx Coliseum, he appeared alongside Sinclair Lewis and Malcolm Cowley.

    anyone but me know this stuff?

    so far i have heard no one rmember any of this
    sinclair lewis? now you know why he was so socialist, his buddy worked on him… anyone remember babette gross? how about being aware?

    Münzenberg instructed his assistant, fellow Comintern agent Otto Katz, to travel to the United States to garner support for various pro-Soviet and anti-Nazi causes, as part of the 1935 Comintern Seventh World Congress’ proclamation of a “Peoples’ Front Against Fascism”, aka the Popular Front. Katz made his way to Hollywood, and in July 1936 he formed the Hollywood Anti-Nazi League with Dorothy Parker.

    anyone know of this? dorothy parker?
    you waiting for howard zinn to clue you in?
    why would he reveal the key people that gamed your lives?

    Many artists and writers in the U.S. flocked to join the Popular Front, the Anti-Nazi League, and related groups such as the League of American Writers, and movie stars such as Paul Muni, Melvyn Douglas, and James Cagney all agreed to sponsor the Hollywood Anti-Nazi League

    how come neo?

    you have hollywood and the antinazi league, stalin, the education system, and more gaming you… and you dont believe it… anyone in a con wont believe it tillt he con is over. and the game is done. THEN WHAT?

    one last post..
    then crickets can ensue

  49. arfldgrs Says:

    Otto Katz, also known as André Simone amongst other aliases, was born in Jistebnice south of Prague, Bohemia, on May 27, 1895.

    He was hanged on December 3, 1952, after he was convicted in the Slánský trial.

    He was one of the most influential agents of the Soviet Union under Stalin in Western intellectual and artistic circles during the 1930s and 1940s.

    Known for his many pseudonyms, his seductiveness, his cynicism and versatility, from Paris to Hollywood from Mexico City to London, he participated in all the major Comintern disinformation campaigns in the 1930s, under the leadership of Willi Münzenberg who he eventually usurped after spying on him for the NKVD, if the rumours were to be believed…

    Otto frequented the avant-guard (Franz Kafka, Max Brod, Franz Werfel) and led a life of pleasure in 1922 while adhering to the German Communist Party. Thanks to his allowance, he published some poems privately. Rudolf Fuchs, a German Jewish writer, encouraged him to become a writer. He was also close to Egon Kisch with whom he shared communist political views

    He became an international spy unconditionally faithful to Stalin, and unlike some of the communist Jewish intellectuals who ran the Comintern at the time, he accepted the German-Soviet Pact and was entrusted with the implementation of secret policies by Stalin’s politburo.

    He was strongly suspected, without conclusive evidence, of involvement as Ramon Mercader’s handler in the assassination of Leon Trotsky

    and in the supposed murder of Willi Münzenberg who was found hanged in a French forest. [no he was garroted, and sat up by a tree with the garrote on his head]

    Through a meeting in 1924 with Babette Gross, the sister of Margarete Buber-Neumann, Otto Katz met Willi Münzenberg, Babette’s husband. Münzenberg saw Otto Katz’s potential and included within his group the young dandy eager to serve the cause of the Soviet Union.

    and katz killed him… eh? better than hollyweird can make up

    Margarete Buber-Neumann (21 October 1901 – 6 November 1989), was a member of the Communist Party of Germany during the years of the Weimar Republic. She survived imprisonment in concentration camps during World War II in both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. After the war, she wrote a memoir of her time in both of these camps and served as a star witness during the so-called “trial of the century” in the Kravchenko Affair in France.

    babette gross doesnt have a english wiki
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babette_Gross

    all these people are moslty unkown to even people who think they know these things!!!

  50. Dave Says:

    in a way you can see the liberals are doing to the conservatives exactly what the Nazi were doing to the Jews, shutting them from all jobs in fields dominated by liberals, branding them deplorables as a moral cover to persecute them….

  51. Richard Saunders Says:

    Matt_SE — What the hell does “Ironically, the religious parallel to Nazism is Judaism” mean? In what way is Nazism parallel to Judaism? They’re both paganistic? They’re both believers in racial superiority? They bothj believe in government control of the economy? Exactly how?

    Tim Turner “Even if there was a Polish Nazi, or a French Nazi, that ended quickly when he German Nazis overran their country. As Nazism is both Nationalistic and imperialistic, inherently Nazis from other countries must be enemies.” Not at all true. There were French, Dutch, Latvian, Lithuanian, Moslem, and other Nazis who served in actual SS Divisions. They were never turned on by the German Nazis. As for the French, they would have been perfectly happy to live under Nazi rule. They rounded up the Jews of Paris before even being asked. Had it not been for the Communists, there would have been no French Resistance.

    ArtfldgrsSpeaking of Communists, why do you go on and on about old, dead Commies while there are plenty of young (and not so young), living Commies to excoriate?

  52. Big Maq Says:

    @Tim Turner – some very good points.

    Always liked the Nolan Chart as a starting point, though even that has it wrong in some ways (the extreme left and right are not separate end points, but probably ultimately merge with the authoritarian point, making it 3 dimensional, imho).

    One of the biggest differences between communism and national socialism / fascism cited is ownership of assets.

    But that is a difference merely of degree, as the state in the latter case can reassign ownership at will, if an authority so chooses.

    In both cases, currying favor with government authorities seems an integral part of “success”.

    Come to think of it, isn’t china now more properly labeled a national socialist regime?

  53. Matthew M Says:

    I have come to sum it like this: in the Nazi country individuals were sacrificed for the fatherland; in communist countries individuals are sacrificed for the motherland.

  54. Sean Says:

    1. An end to the international punishments imposed after WWI (including removal of international oversight, rebuilding of the German Military, and reunification of historical Germany)
    2. Colonialism (which didn’t cease being a common viable international policy until after WWII)
    3. Preferential treatment for the German race.
    4. Exclusionary treatment for especially inferior races.
    5. Restoration and enrichment of German cultural and legal traditions.
    6. Reformation of corrupt government and press (i.e. establish pro-German propaganda).
    7. Blue-collar Socialism.

    Other than the first two, this describes Black Lives Matter but in a different context. Racial identity politics + demands for preferential treatment + socialism (except for when capitalism proves more effective). It’s Leftist.

  55. Tatterdemalian Says:

    Nazis know their system is nothing but misery, they just consider surviving in misery preferable to dying.

    Socialists try to.pretend their system is all ranbows and worker’s paradise, but it’s results are always identical to fascism, only without the guarantee that anyone will survive.

  56. AesopFan Says:

    Richard Saunders Says:
    August 9th, 2017 at 2:31 pm

    Artfldgrs: Speaking of Communists, why do you go on and on about old, dead Commies while there are plenty of young (and not so young), living Commies to excoriate?
    * * *
    Because they are continuing the aims and methods of their ancestors.
    I appreciate Art’s injection of historical archives that I certainly had no prior knowledge of.

  57. Liz Says:

    Arfldgrs – thank you for the link to the Soviet Story. I watched it yesterday. There was one woman (in the pink sweater) who could have been a relative. Her facial features, hair and hands reminded me of my mother. The rooms full of old books also looked familiar.

    Do you read/speak Latvian? Mom never taught me since she became an American and teaching your kids Russian/Latvian in the 50s just wasn’t cool. I have many books since I cold not throw them away. I need to find them a good home, eventually.

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