August 23rd, 2017

Observations

Recently I was at several gatherings of relatives and friends, and listening to some of the conversation I get two impressions.

The first is that some liberals are still very much obsessed with Trump. One in particular could hardly let a thought go by without including a dig at Trump, even if there didn’t seem to be even a remote connection.

The second is that a lot of liberals think they’ve got Trump on the ropes and that he won’t last another year in office. I happen to disagree.

127 Responses to “Observations”

  1. Tom Says:

    I agree. I have read a lot of stuff that makes me think the liberals really think they have Trump on the ropes, and about ready to go down for the count. I also think the foundation for that thought is built on tissue paper.

  2. physicsguy Says:

    Just came from first faculty meeting of the year where I heard that the white supremists are rising up and threatening to take over. I’m still trying to find some these people in the halls of government, etc. Amazing how in the space of a few weeks a statistically insignificant group has risen to such heights of power. Oh forgot, Trump is their leader. “Never mind.” Emily Litella

  3. djf Says:

    Trump may not be on the ropes. The more important question is whether what is on the ropes is serious opposition to the Left – something we are not getting from Trump.

  4. MollyNH Says:

    Gee Neo seems like your blog commentators are the only ones in your circle that are keeping you from going bald !

  5. Cornhead Says:

    Libs watch CNN. No else does. I watched the first segment at 7 central and Chris Cuomo was foaming at the mouth. And Clapper says Trump is mentally unstable. Is he a doctor? Did he examine Trump?

    That being said, the 24/7 drumbeat is not good. Trump is chaos. Trump is a racist. Trump is insane. Trump has Alzheimer’s. They know what they are doing. Heck, I would have fallen for it when I was in college.

  6. F Says:

    And it’s not just liberals. I lunch Mondays with two well educated men, one a lawyer and former Republican Party official from CA, the other claims no party affiliation but is somewhat conservative on economic and some social matters.

    Every lunch starts with “well he’s really done it this time! He can’t last out the week!” This has been a pretty consistent refrain since the inauguration.

    The old saw about Trump living rent-free in people’s heads is absolutely true.

  7. Julia Says:

    “iberals really think they have Trump on the ropes”

    And they’ve thought this since before the inauguration.

  8. Dave Says:

    The left is on the ropes, they have endorsed the Alt Left, they are one ANTIFA bombing away from being completely annihilated

  9. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    I confess that I will be somewhat surprised if Trump makes it through his first term. All the RINO’s need to impeach and convict is a good enough excuse. Enough political cover is all they are waiting for…

  10. DNW Says:

    “… a lot of liberals think they’ve got Trump on the ropes and that he won’t last another year in office. I happen to disagree. “

    A lot of liberals imagine that everyone is as emotionally dependent on their moment to moment good opinions, as their own livelihoods are on toeing the institutional party line.

    But tell them to hold tight. It will be ok. Two more S.C. appointments and the borders secured, and then as far as I am concerned they can have Pence.

  11. JK Brown Says:

    I dropped reading ‘The Economist’ back in 2004 when they changed editors and picked up what I termed a bad case of Bush Tourettes. Seems many have Trump Tourettes these days. Just going along and totally out of the blue and off topic, they have to swear about Trump.

  12. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    Geoff: Trump is a third Party candidate without a party.
    Removing him puts Pence (who I like), a Republican, in the office.
    I afraid RINO is no longer an accurate term.
    They truly are Republicans. That’s no longer a good thing.

  13. Kyndyll G Says:

    The other thing that concerns me – who in their right mind would consider running for president as a Republican after this? Yes, there are things that Trump does that makes the barrage worse: 1) he does things that seem (and, many times, actually are) politically unwise, which draws fire; and 2) he doesn’t relent, which draws even more fire.

    But let’s be honest: if you still think that any Republican, no matter how spotless their record, no matter how perfect their conduct, would not be receiving incessant abuse by the media you’re hopelessly and dangerously naïve. This was going to happen to any Republican that stands in the way of the hard Left, who were oh so close. Who here among us would put ourselves on the line for this public annihilation?

  14. steve walsh Says:

    One of these groups has an obsessive compulsive disorder (TDS) and the other is delusional. I know these folks, I’m surrounded by them here in MA, and my family is full of them.

  15. chuck Says:

    I’m reminded of the scene in Hildegard Knef’s autobiography The Gift Horse: Report on a Life where she is walking down a street in Berlin with a couple of veterans of the Eastern Front as the siege reaches it’s peak. The bodies of boys executed for cowardice are hanging from lamp posts, the sound of explosions in the distance,, and the veterans are talking that laconic veteran talk, “Yep, they sure got some problems here.” That’s how I feel watching the liberals as they fight their delusional battle against the imagined enemy, ignorant of the light and sunshine out in the country side.

    Now, there are a lot of liberals and I would put things about 50/50 at the moment, so it isn’t clear how it will all fall out. But the defeat of Trump is certainly not a certainty.

  16. Dave Says:

    If they impeach trump in his first term, he can run as an independent candidate for his second term.

  17. M J R Says:

    Kyndyll G, 6:41 pm — “[I]f you still think that any Republican, no matter how spotless their record, no matter how perfect their conduct, would not be receiving incessant abuse by the media you’re hopelessly and dangerously naïve. This was going to happen to any Republican that stands in the way of the hard Left . . . .”

    Yep. Mitt Romney, as upstanding and decent a man as they make ’em, was a Nazi in 2012, although his rehabilitation since then has been nothing short of miraculous [ snark ].

  18. Griffin Says:

    Yep, the abuse a President Ted Cruz would be getting now would be different but almost as unrelenting as Trump is getting. It would probably more policy based and less temperament based. Just think of the ridiculous comments about Trump killing 20 million people during the Obamacare repeal efforts awhile back and multiply that by a couple of times to imagine what it would be like. I have serious doubts about whether we will ever see another Republican president and that has little to do with Trump and a lot to do with the scary toxic culture in this country right now.

  19. Dave Says:

    Pence will not support impeaching Trump because that means he will be a 2 year president instead of potentially being a 8 year president. The incentives to impeach trump for any republican is not as great as many people think, if Trump gets impeached in his first term that pretty much means any republican with aspirations to being President other than maybe ted cruz will never be president.

  20. Big Maq Says:

    If trump continues to attack Congressional GOP, and members of his own cabinet, yes, he risks impeachment, as it incentivizes them to side with the dems (who couldn’t do it without GOP votes, even if they were to win the House in 2018).

    But, he’d have to do something rather egregious for the GOP to risk the backlash from his diehard supporters – and it will be fierce since there is nothing wrong that trump can do in this group’s eyes.

    Instead, if he doesn’t change (i.e. if his diehard supporters continue supporting his behavior and decisions – bad along with the good), then expect a lame duck presidency.

    That may be enough to carry the day, if some crisis doesn’t pop up, international or otherwise.

    In the end, the GOP will get branded and there is nothing they can do about it, if they feel that in the longer term they need those hard core trump supporters to win vs the dems.

    Lame duck and a terrible brand – that seems a whole lot better than impeachment, if I were in the dem’s shoes.

    Is it this kind of political fighting that brought down the Weimar?

  21. physicsguy Says:

    Two thumbs up to Ed’s comment. Trump is a 3rd party president. I withdrew my voter registration from the GOP 6 years ago; they really are just Democrats lite. It’s going to be very hard for Trump to survive without a groundswell of support with both parties gunning for him.

  22. Dave Says:

    If the GOP decides to impeach Trump the biggest loser will be the RINO and NEOCONS, the exact same people who Want Trump to be out of the office the most. There is not a single possibility that after impeaching Trump a RINO candidate like Rubio will ever win the nomination, all of Trump’s support will go to the next outsider, perhaps Ted Cruz, or perhaps someone even more radical than Trump. there is no endgame for the RINOs if they decide to impeach Trump, their careers will die with Trump if they choose to do so.

  23. Ken Mitchell Says:

    Julia Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 5:46 pm
    ” “Liberals really think they have Trump on the ropes”

    And they’ve thought this since before the inauguration.”

    No, they’ve thought this since he first announced that he was running. EVERY tweet was proof that Trump was through, finished, done for. And “liberals” _STILL_ think that.

    It’s not true, and probably never will be – but that’s what they think, and hope to be true.

  24. DNW Says:

    “Griffin Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 6:48 pm

    Yep, the abuse a President Ted Cruz would be getting now would be different but almost as unrelenting as Trump is getting. “

    Yes, if you really wanted to see a “freedom is slavery” theme peddled for all its collectivist worth, a Cruz directed policy attack on the welfare state’s liberty killing mandates should just about fill the bill.

    “Your selfish insistence on hogging your own unearned gifts of nature and physical attributes is the cruelest kind of “autonomy” insistence – reminiscent of segregationists and slave traders. Your vicious withholding of contributions from the communities which traditionally enabled your white privileged life, is now literally killing the most vulnerable among us!

    Failure to participate is murder!

    Why do you hate the vulnerable? Why do you savagely devalue the physical pleasures, and the bodies of others, and refuse to pay your fair share for their realization – preferring your own ego fulfillment!!!??? Why are you a hater!!!!????’

  25. Dave Says:

    There is the stockholm syndrome too, the fact is GOP has no way to know how many reluctant Trump voters have become his “die hard” supporters. I was a some what reluctant Trump voter, all these attacks from the left has only hardened my support for Trump.

  26. charles Says:

    Dave – me too!

    I was a VERY reluctant Trump supporter, actually a more of NOT Hillary supporter.

    But, watching and listening to all the anti-Trump hysteria go down, I am more and more liking the guy.

    Other “main stream” politicians would have caved; but, Trump is fighting back and not giving up.

    THAT is what is going to give him a second term.

  27. huxley Says:

    My liberal friends and family have come to a tacit agreement with me, and me with them, never to discuss politics.

  28. parker Says:

    Slidding out on a thin limb, djt will not be impeached, much less convicted. This is just rabble rising the left and the rino boys and girls. Primary McConnel and win, primary Ryan and win, and the rino wing will STFU.

  29. huxley Says:

    It’s become almost as difficult for Trump Republicans and non-Trump Republicans to discuss politics.

    I’ve heard Trump people laugh about being called “haters.”

    Some of them are and more than I am comfortable with.

  30. Tuvea Says:

    What Dave says.

    I was for Walker. Then Cruz. Then reluctantly for President Trump. ( it still feels GOOD to type that! )

    Nothing the President has done, said, or even tweeted has diminished my respect for him.

    IMHO the main reason view him with disgust is not his policies. They aren’t used to a President, or any ‘politician’ for that matter, communicating the way he does. It is stylistic and not substantive. Figuratively, the sizzle and not the steak.

  31. Oldflyer Says:

    I don’t think anyone really knows what the dynamic is with Trump.

    In Arizona, thousands of people lined up in temperatures approaching 110 degrees to get into his rally. They roared approval when he eviscerated the media because he did so justifiably–up to a point. My big question is whether he calculatedly took it far beyond what I thought prudent; or whether he just cannot control himself? One thing is certain, the media is on notice that they cannot intimidate him.

    There are clearly at least two Trumps; or at least two sides of the same Trump. Monday, I thought he was as Presidential as anyone I have listened to; Tuesday night I began to wonder if he had lost control after the first half hour or so. Apparently, speaking to the American Legion today, he was back on message. I did not hear much of it; but, it was short,and what little I heard was on message.

    The conventional wisdom is that he is alienating Congress and they will punish him. I suspect that he believes that by calling them out he is pressuring them to act; and if they don’t produce they know they will pay for it in 2018 and 2020. I imagine most average folks think they need to be called out.

    It goes without saying that the Punditry, the DC establishment, and the privileged on the left do not appreciate the level of disgust, and even anger, across the country. Thugs like Antifa and BLM, help to fuel the fire. Apparently they are all too dense to understand how Trump benefits; and seem to forget that the hoi polloi have the same vote as they do; and may value it more.

    One comment on impeachment. I believe that is spurious talk. Nixon and Clinton very visibly painted themselves into a legal corner. There is nothing approaching either case with Trump; and any attempt would create a formidable backlash, the extent of which is unpredictable.

  32. Julia Says:

    What bothers me immensely is the tremendous piling on for no real reason. This is like a 2 minute hate, the extended version. The media (and their allies) are trying to foment a revolution!

  33. Dave Says:

    It is very hard to sell the trump is a nazi concept to anyone with an ounce of reasoning ability when trump is surrounded with Jews, having grandchildren with Jewish heritage, and beloved by Israel. Remember the Jewish boy with a rare disease story? how trump flied him from LA to NY with his own plane after most airlines refused the family’s request. Helping a Jewish kid? oh my, imagine the outcry from the nazi community trump cherishes so much according to MSM. George foreman told the story about how trump helped him get out of bankruptcy in early 90s. Trump is not a racist, that is a proven fact, debating about it is a waste of time.

  34. John Dough Says:

    Dave Says: Federal Law says that if Trump is impeached in years three of four of his term, The Vice President (Pence) serves out the remaining time and then is eligible to run for 2 full 4 year terms of his own. Succinctly he could serve 10 years.

  35. Ymar Sakar Says:

    The Alt Right thinks they have the Ctrl Left on the ropes, and the Ctrl Left seems to think they have Trum on the ropes.

    You are all being manipulated; mere actors on the stage cannot see the director and puppet master behind the stage.

  36. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Is it this kind of political fighting that brought down the Weimar?

    BM, got tired of thinking people talking about civil war 2 was crazy and not worth paying attention to?

  37. Sharon W Says:

    I personally have very little respect for the political opinions of the Trump haters. Family, pundits, the lot of them. So done with their version of politics. My objective of SC justices that are constitutionalists is on target. I remain hopeful for the future despite the immature virtue signallers that have the loudest megaphone.

  38. Michael F Adams Says:

    President Trump is not any sort of Fascist, of course, nor a NAZI, nor a sexist nor a racist. What he is is President, instead of Felonia von Pantsuit. He derailed the Communists, and they can never forgive that. All the rest began when he got close to winning, intensified when he actually did so. The calumnies are constantly in motion, one fails, and another mysteriously arises.

    Of course, he never colluded with Russia. Felonia did, but he did not. Of course he is not encouraging Fascism or raaaacism. So absurd, so little proof, but none of it mattered.

    If President Trump succeeds, against all odds, he will finish the Socialists for decades to come. There is already a bit of evidence that his economic betterment of Black citizens, which could continue, could bring us to see a real realignment. The Fat Lady is not even warming up.

  39. The Other Chuck Says:

    Some posting here seem to have adjusted to the outrageous and over the top demeanor, the outright lies, the inability to distinguish fact from fantasy, the personal attacks, and the incessant need for adoration that is Donald Trump. To the extent that he’s able to get regulations revoked and judges seated even those of us who can’t stand the man are willing to overlook his pathology. But if you’ve decided this is the new normal, you need to take a long, hard look at where it is leading and what you are becoming in the process. His most ardent supporters and close advisers have already left – Bannon, Priebus, Icahn, all the business CEOs & union guys.

    At some point this grand show is going to fall completely apart, Trump will lose his remaining die hard followers, and he will be removed from office. My guess is through the 25th Amendment rather than impeachment.

    OldFlyer:

    My big question is whether he calculatedly took it far beyond what I thought prudent; or whether he just cannot control himself?

    He can’t control himself.

  40. Sean Says:

    Julia,

    I was just talking about that with my boss yesterday. The nightly news has become our Thirty Minutes’ Hate.

    That goes for both sides of the aisle, Fox does it every bit as much. In fact, I find myself just as angry after watching Fox, with whom I mostly agree, as I do after watching CNN, which I despise.

  41. Sean Says:

    Oldflyer,

    My big question is whether he calculatedly took it far beyond what I thought prudent; or whether he just cannot control himself?

    This is ultimately why he drives the media nuts: it’s impossible to tell whether his public persona is spontaneous or calculated. It confuses everyone but after watching him for a while I’ve concluded that he’s calculating and spontaneous at the same time.

  42. AesopFan Says:

    “One in particular could hardly let a thought go by without including a dig at Trump, even if there didn’t seem to be even a remote connection.” — Neo

    I saw this in several articles I read just today, which had no connection to current events in any way (one was an article about Donald Westlake’s books, which pre-date Trump by eons — and are very good).

    However, I also saw this personally in two venues during Bush 43’s term: one was a talk by a local-resident-but-very-famous SF writer in Denver, and once a concert in Denver by an Irish harper (as in, born in Ireland, not just playing an Irish harp).
    Each felt somehow compelled to make a derogatory remark about President Bush, as if it were inconceivable that a Republican might read their books or listen to their music.
    I admit to being somewhat soured on both afterwards, but I didn’t stop admiring their work.

    If it’s any consolation, ESPN is tanking and Marvel comics is losing money and readers.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450700/espn-marvel-missouri-university-they-all-turned-left-and-hit-rocks

  43. AesopFan Says:

    Oldflyer Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 8:12 pm
    I don’t think anyone really knows what the dynamic is with Trump.

    In Arizona, thousands of people lined up in temperatures approaching 110 degrees to get into his rally. They roared approval when he eviscerated the media because he did so justifiably–up to a point. My big question is whether he calculatedly took it far beyond what I thought prudent; or whether he just cannot control himself? One thing is certain, the media is on notice that they cannot intimidate him.

    There are clearly at least two Trumps; or at least two sides of the same Trump.
    * * *
    I agree with Sean (he’s both).
    I also think that Trump has an excellent speech writer and a lot of the “on target speeches” stem from that.
    Back in May it was still Stephen Miller.
    Anyone know if he still is?

  44. AesopFan Says:

    huxley Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 8:01 pm
    It’s become almost as difficult for Trump Republicans and non-Trump Republicans to discuss politics.

    I’ve heard Trump people laugh about being called “haters.”

    Some of them are and more than I am comfortable with.
    * * *
    There are always people in any group who are susceptible to hate (the real thing, not the behavior that the Left and the SJWs and the Snowflakes have taken to calling hate).

    However, if you have enough people call you a “hater” long enough when you know you aren’t one, then maybe you start laughing about it?

    How many haters are you comfortable with?

    (Not sarcastic, really, because it’s a good line, but don’t we all know a couple of people who just can’t seem to get past hate into a healthy mind-state? And is there, socially speaking, a capacity for a faction of haters of some size, before the society hits its”tipping point”?)

  45. AesopFan Says:

    Big Maq Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 6:58 pm
    If trump continues to attack Congressional GOP, and members of his own cabinet, yes, he risks impeachment, as it incentivizes them to side with the dems (who couldn’t do it without GOP votes, even if they were to win the House in 2018).
    * *
    Only if they are re-elected.

    It looks like Trump is pro-actively seeking primary challengers for his biggest foes.

    I do think it’s foolish to attach his own Cabinet appointees, however; ideally, he should just replace the ones he doesn’t like, but he won’t get new ones approved by Congress, he barely got the ones he has now.
    He’s playing to his base on all of this.

    More evidence that Trumpism is really a third party?

  46. huxley Says:

    AesopFan: I think President Lincoln said it best:

    We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection.

    The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.

    –First Inaugural Address

    It’s a shame so few people these days talk that talk and walk that walk.

  47. AesopFan Says:

    Kyndyll G Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 6:41 pm
    The other thing that concerns me – who in their right mind would consider running for president as a Republican after this?..

    But let’s be honest: if you still think that any Republican, no matter how spotless their record, no matter how perfect their conduct, would not be receiving incessant abuse by the media you’re hopelessly and dangerously naïve. This was going to happen to any Republican that stands in the way of the hard Left, who were oh so close. Who here among us would put ourselves on the line for this public annihilation?
    * *
    None of us, but there are professional politicians who think the prize is worth the game (or that they would be immune to such treatment because they aren’t Trump; naivete seems to be a strong suit on the Right).

    I would like to know, however, if any future GOP candidate will go into the campaigns wondering how many of his own party will knife him in the back or shoot him in the face (rhetorically and metaphorically, of course) after seeing what they did to their party’s nominee and WINNER.

  48. AesopFan Says:

    JK Brown Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 6:38 pm
    I dropped reading ‘The Economist’ back in 2004 when they changed editors and picked up what I termed a bad case of Bush Tourettes. Seems many have Trump Tourettes these days. Just going along and totally out of the blue and off topic, they have to swear about Trump.
    * **
    I like this variant of BDS / TDS.
    There are some old articles about Bush having Tourettes (part of the old meme of “Dummy Dubya”), but not putting the tics on the other side.

    The spontaneous references do have a cumulative effect on the reader / listener, however, which contributes to the “bubble” syndrome of the Left’s fellow-travelers who aren’t actually part of the Hard Left (and aren’t paying attention to the way they have enabled its excesses).

  49. AesopFan Says:

    huxley Says:
    August 24th, 2017 at 1:10 am …

    Lincoln said almost everything best.
    And after him is Churchill.

  50. Tatterdemalian Says:

    “It’s a shame so few people these days talk that talk and walk that walk.”

    Heck, these days people fanatically believe calling a horse’s tail a “Social Justice Warrior” actually makes it one.

  51. FOAF Says:

    “Some posting here seem to have adjusted to the outrageous and over the top demeanor, the outright lies, the inability to distinguish fact from fantasy, the personal attacks, and the incessant need for adoration that is Donald Trump.”

    Most of that (especilally “incessant need for adoration”) could as easily be applied to Obama, except for “outrageous and over the top demeanor”. Which is partly why he got away with the rest. The other part is because the press loved his hardcore leftism.

    Like others here I was a “reluctant” Trumper though in my case never a NeverTrumper because I knew NeverTrump == Hillary POTUS. While I still sometimes roll my eyes at his “demeanor” I will gladly take Trump and his demeanor over Obama and his demeanor. Especially when I remember that Obama’s demeanor suckered a lot of people, even many on the right who should have known better.

  52. FOAF Says:

    (Sean) “after watching him for a while I’ve concluded that he’s calculating and spontaneous at the same time.”

    I agree with this. I am not like Scott Adams who seems to think that every comma of every tweet is brilliantly contrived. But I do think that Trump is well aware of the overall effect he is conveying.

    As for the “Presidential” speech one day and the, um, less Presidential one the next that may also be deliberate. Good cop/bad cop rolled into one.

  53. FOAF Says:

    One last comment about Trump’s “demeanor” and his treatment of the press. I seem to recall that just after the election Trump said something to the effect that if the press treated him fairly he would respond in kind. We all know how the press has treated him. Nevertheless Trump has kept his word and responded in kind :^) :^) :^).

  54. Dave Says:

    John dough:

    What I was trying to say is if pence betrays trump together with the RINOs, he will become the president and serve out his term for 2 years and loses humiliatedly in his reelection just like Gerald ford did without the trump supporters. If pence be loyal to trump and waits his turn, he will become trump’s royal heir apparent receiving most of his supports, having the support of Establishment republicans, and with his good look many moderates as well. Trump is getting old, he might not run 3 years later, Pence might get his turn as quick as 3 years, why risk it?

  55. AesopFan Says:

    Tom Says:
    August 23rd, 2017 at 4:51 pm
    I agree. I have read a lot of stuff that makes me think the liberals really think they have Trump on the ropes, and about ready to go down for the count. I also think the foundation for that thought is built on tissue paper.
    * * *
    The first shall be last —
    had to get this one in before the thread died away.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/08/james-clapper-assesses.php

    “President Trump’s attack on the liberal media has, of course, produced fierce criticism from the liberal media and from the anti-Trump figures the liberal media enlists as talking heads. The criticism getting the most play comes from former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.

    Appearing on CNN, Clapper told Don Lemon this, among other things:

    I really question [Trump’s] … fitness to be in this office. And I also am beginning to wonder about his motivation for it. Maybe he is looking for a way out.

    But Trump’s performance in Arizona last night pretty much mirrored the performances that helped him win the presidency. To infer from a performance of the kind partially responsible for him becoming president that Trump is looking for a way out of the presidency betrays a stupidity that’s frightening, coming as it does from a man who was once assigned by our government to assess the motives of foreign leaders.”

    * * *
    That may help explain why our foreign policy was such a shambles (in addition to Obama’s deliberate sabotage and Clinton’s cupidity, of course).

  56. FOAF Says:

    “That may help explain why our foreign policy was such a shambles”

    Consider the panic now over North Korea having nukes. This was seen coming at least as early as *1994*. So all the polished, educated, knowledgeable foreign policy “experts” have had nearly 25 years to forestall this. And they have failed miserably at the most fundamental justification for any government, to protect its citizens from external attack. What good are they? No wonder the crowd roars when Trump attacks the “elites”.

  57. Stephen Ippolito Says:

    I would be worried, Neo, if these were not the very same people whose tenuous insight into, and grip on, reality led them to acquiesce in Obama’s statement of July 2016 that: “There has never been any man or woman more qualified for this office than Hillary Clinton”.

    It pains me to even type such a lie. When and by whom has that atrocious untruth been called out?

    What unmitigated gall to utter such a bald-faced lie to so many millions of people; What a lack of awareness; what a disconnect with the truth to countenance such a patently ridiculous idea. And we are supposed to credit such people as insightful?

    Not only was Hillary not the best qualified for the office since Washington: she was not even more qualified than the very next occupant of the office – a founding father called John Adams.

    And what of the one immediately after Adams: a chap called Thomas Jefferson? Was Hillary better qualified than these men who willingly pledged: “our lives our fortunes and our sacred honour”?

    And of course, to these same people Hillary was better qualified than Ike since his experience as supreme commander of allied forces in Europe paled into insignificance beside Hillary’s dodging of sniper fire in Bosnia.

    And Ulysses Grant’s experience prior to assuming office? Leading the army of the Potomac apparently counts as nothing for these same people next to Hillary’s towering achievement in marrying Bill and surviving an FBI criminal investigation whilst campaigning for the presidency.

    No. The opinions of such people just don’t cut it.

    I am not even American and can yet name dozens of people who have risen to the office of the presidency as better qualified men than Hillary.

    Goodness: if we want to limit ourselves to women who by dint of character, achievement and love of country were better qualified to lead the US then for me it was the redoubtable Abigail Adams who lived and died 200 years ago. Every inch her formidable husband’s equal in learning, intellect and character.

    What a shame that Carly Fiorina didn’t win the nomination so we could have had the pleasure to witness her prove that she was indeed Hillary’s “worst nightmare” since the latter only had her ovaries and married name to commend her to the Trump haters.

    Carly was right when she pointed out in an interview during the primary battles that what counts is not securing the fancy job, (especially when the job is obtained through nepotism), but how you perform in the job.

    And what of TR who led your rough riders in Cuba and was a truly transformative police commissioner of New York and VP of the US?

    No. When such people as your esteemed relatives and friends count Trump out I remind myself that they are the same people who did not quibble to laud Hillary to the skies for no rational reason and are for the most part the dolts who will buy her self-serving and cynical memoirs.

  58. Dave Says:

    Liberals believe feces taste good because CNN said so.
    Conservatives encourage liberals to try it out themselves to see sh*ts truly taste good.
    liberals spit it out immediately and vomit nonstop since,
    But they still believe sh*ts taste good,
    because CNN said so.

  59. Yackums Says:

    “This is ultimately why he drives the media nuts: it’s impossible to tell whether his public persona is spontaneous or calculated. It confuses everyone but after watching him for a while I’ve concluded that he’s calculating and spontaneous at the same time.”

    “I don’t know…but I think…maybe it’s both? Maybe both of them are happening at the same time?”

    — Forrest Trump

  60. Sharon W Says:

    “Some posting here seem to have adjusted to the outrageous and over the top demeanor, the outright lies, the inability to distinguish fact from fantasy, the personal attacks, and the incessant need for adoration that is Donald Trump.”

    No, The Other Chuck, my adjusting happened during the 8 years of Bush’s presidency when he was incessantly referred to as Hitler and our efforts to battle the Islamists were undermined by the MSM, the Democrats and even our own government. This followed by the election of a candidate whose college and medical records were sealed along with the report on the commission he worked with Bill Ayers on in Chicago. Obama proceeded to not wear the American flag pins, not put his hand on his heart for the pledge, bow to foreign dignitaries, surreptitiously use his middle finger repeatedly, scold half the country regularly and I won’t even bother with the litany of destructive things that took place during his reign (weaponized IRS, Fast and Furious, etc etc) all with the unmitigated support of the MSM and his party. Because he was our nominee, I voted for Trump for 2 reasons, SC justices and “not Hillary”. I have never felt the need to defend him–if he acts the ass and there is a reason for me to say so, I will. I spent 8 years defending Bush to all the liberals around me, no point in playing that game again.

  61. Ymar Sakar Says:

    It’s a shame so few people these days talk that talk and walk that walk.

    Huxley, if you wish for others to walk the walk, first you must follow the principle yourself.

  62. The Other Chuck Says:

    No one, left or right, thought Bush was crazy. Trump’s speech Tuesday, which I watched to the end, indicates he’s losing it. I don’t believe the unfair attacks from the press, the unleashed and violent alt-left, the obstructionism of the GOPe, or any other outside event has affected him as much as losing personal support from his own close advisors and appointees. The whole point of the rally in Phoenix was to bolster his fragile ego. His need for constant reassurance from crowds of adoring fans is comparable to a number of infamous leaders that don’t need to be named. The similarity should scare the crap out of you, but it won’t. The more seemingly unfair opposition he encounters, the more entrenched his followers become. It’s a self-feeding loop. But I believe it will end and that saner heads will see to it before long.

  63. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Who here among us would put ourselves on the line for this public annihilation?
    * *
    None of us, but there are professional politicians who think the prize is worth the game (or that they would be immune to such treatment because they aren’t Trump; naivete seems to be a strong suit on the Right).

    If a god told their followers to become the next US President to face persecution and public annihilation… the followers would have to be Judas Iscariot to refuse.

    “‘He either fears his fate too much,
    Or his dessert is small,
    Who fears to put it to the touch,
    And win or lose it all.’ – Montrose’s Toast

  64. Ymar Sakar Says:

    it’s impossible to tell whether his public persona is spontaneous or calculated.

    It is very feasible to do so. For example, anyone that can accurately detect whether Ymar’s persona is spontaneous or calculated, will have a good chance with Trum.

  65. Ymar Sakar Says:

    The Other Chuck Says:
    August 24th, 2017 at 10:18 am
    No one, left or right, thought Bush was crazy.

    They thought Bush was a bobblehead puppet, which is why they thought CHeney was the Dark Lord of crazy. Especially after Cheney faceshot a lawyer with his shotgun while hunting.

    And wasn’t it you, OC, that thought civil war 2 analysts here and elsewhere were crazy and not worth paying attention to? Now you’re talking about Trum being crazy… shrugs.

  66. Jim Doherty Says:

    I think you all just need to relax. We are about a year away from finding out one way or the other.

    If in the 2018 midterms, republicans pick up what I think they will, this whole Dem/Media strategy will go flying out the window. Then we will see a new angle, this one will be the pity/sympathy cry.

    Trump is a bully and picking on us.

    I think its possible, if the left contiues to freak out for another year, that they lose 10 senate seats.

    At that point, The media will turn on the alt left and antifas. They will go all law and order, and try to out trump, trump.

  67. The Other Chuck Says:

    Y:
    No, I didn’t think civil war 2 talk was crazy. If the word was used it was as a metaphor indicating unwise and publicly stupid, and no place I want to be. If that time comes (which the left seems hell bent on fomenting) a public forum is the last place to advertise your position, your stock, and your intentions.

  68. DNW Says:

    “To the extent that he’s able to get regulations revoked and judges seated even those of us who can’t stand the man are willing to overlook his pathology.

    @ the other Chuck,

    Yeah, basically, I don’t – after living through Obama, and the Clintons and the insane social justice wankers’ lunatic politics – care if as the only alternative to a leftist triumph and a future existence in their moral hell hole, “it” all falls down instead.

    These “Cultural Marxists” to dignify them with a term implying an intellectual cachet they do not deserve, have proved themselves to be existential enemies.

    But if you’ve decided this is the new normal, you need to take a long, hard look at where it is leading

    We have been living out a slo-mo civil war in this country for years; and it was only on the point of the complete economic and political dispossession of the traditional middle of the country, that the middle finally came to recognize it.

    I supported Cruz. I thought Trump was a clown. He even might be a clown.

    But I now see that the left is so insane, so determined to radically change my lifeway to suit them, to insert their worthless faces permanently in my face; so unremitting in their seeking to legally harness me to their putrid fates and worthless lives, that, if “it” can only be preserved at the cost of a coerced and ever more intrusive and intimate fate-sharing with them, then the price of preserving “It” is too high.

    ” … and what you are becoming in the process. …”

    I know what I am, and it has been placed in ever greater relief for me by the left. I am their enemy.

    Eff them … and that includes Chris Cuomo and the mainstream media in general, if that makes it any plainer.

    No, to be blunt I do not value their lives, their presence, their fellowship, their feelings or their wants. Not even formally, anymore. They after all are not formal, rule of law types anyway. For them the personal is always the political … so in adopting their axiom as applying at least to them, this then is where we are.

    Their wants and needs are, simply put, antithetical to my own, as has been proven over many years.

    The violence inciters of the media, these simpering self-adoring moral cretins and afflicters of the comfortable, seem however to believe that they are or should be considered a priestly caste; one which is free to walk with impunity through the wars and across the battlefields which they have brought into existence with their own determined, self-serving, and unrelenting efforts.

    Watch how they squeal though, when they even suspect that they might possibly reap the whirlwind they have sown. Black lives may well matter as a point of principle. As a point of principle the lives and the wants of the left, media or otherwise, no longer do; nor does a polity which exists under this rubric, in order to preserve or enable them.

    Everything has a price. The price the left wants is simply too high.

  69. chuck Says:

    > The whole point of the rally in Phoenix was to bolster his fragile ego.

    I think he has a rather robust ego. And I would also note that rallies were an important part of his electoral success, as they were for Truman in 1948. In fact, I wondered if Trump’s compaign wasn’t in part modeled on Truman’s, although his rhetoric was certainly milder than Truman’s was.

  70. Sharon W Says:

    “But if you’ve decided this is the new normal, you need to take a long, hard look at where it is leading and what you are becoming in the process.”

    The Leftists are driving the bus of the “new normal”, i.e., designation of “racist” if you oppose processing everything through the lens of race, or don’t embrace the idea of “white privilege” if you are a Caucasian conservative; if you oppose gay marriage, you are a homophobe and hater; gender is self-determining and we should change how we deal with the classroom dynamic from kindergarten, as well as allow transgenders access to any public bathroom they please. I’m very comfortable with “what I am becoming” in this time of cultural/political suffering–yes, suffering!! The foundational values I have been raised with and personally see as the source of good are under fire, but that hasn’t altered my commitment to them. Just as personal hardships I have experienced have deepened my faith, not depleted it; proved it, not undermined it–I will seek the good that only God can bring out of this present morass. As a student of history I am quite aware of the tribulation that may transpire, but as a person that believes “God is in control”, I will trust for the ultimate good in the long run.

  71. Sergey Says:

    So many black swans are swarming on the horizon, that any attempts of prognostications are futile. No rules are working anymore, and everything can happen. Mostly something nobody can imagine now. The very arrival of Trump on political scene is just one of these events nobody could have expected two years ago. More of such surprises are ahead. The world as we know it is finished, and what is new “normal” is completely unknown. Probably, such thing does not exist anymore.

  72. Bill Says:

    One term I can no longer wrap my head around is the term “RINO” – what does that even mean anymore? Trump is not, in my view, a Republican. He is a Trumpian. And the Republican party is now his party – but it doesn’t really resemble Republicans of the past. Many of you think that’s great. I don’t, but to each his own.

    One meme that Trump has pushed hard, and many of his followers as well, is that he’s “winning”. It doesn’t matter what is actually happening on the ground – he’s winning.

    It’s in the little things. Someone upthread mentioned CNN and had to add a comment about how it’s not watched by many. Is that backed up by data/ratings? I personally think that, while Trump supporters cheer him on for “driving the media crazy”, the media is loving this. Ratings for CNN, the “failing’ New York Times, “Amazon” Washington Post and are doing great these days – lots of clicks and follows and etc – because of Trump.

    Among the worst things Trump has modeled for the Republican party has been his incessant whining. The media is just Trump’s Emmanuel Goldstein (to hop on the 2 minutes hate theme from above). Every good authoritarian needs an enemy of the people. And oh, the whining of Republicans about the big, baaaad media.

    Well, which is it? Are they “failing”, “unwatched” or are they this phenomenal cosmic power?

    Trump actively trolls the media, congress, his own cabinet, etc then whines and complains when he gets criticized. And he does things that are insane if you’re interested in actually winning. How smart is it to work to primary your own party’s Senators? Well, I guess it will be brilliant if it works and more Trumpists get elected. But what if it doesn’t? What if 2018 rolls around and he has lost the house and a seat or two in the Senate? What if “flake” Jeff Flake loses or gets primaried and the nutjob Trumpist who primaries him loses? How’s that conservative agenda coming along now?

    I know many of you don’t believe in polls, but how are his polls doing these days? Is he “winning”? Is he building support and consensus around his agenda? And if not, is it his fault? Or just the fault of “RINO’s and the Media”.

    In my view, it’s really just all about Trump now. He’s “winning” if he’s causing controversy, making the media “heads explode”, “fighting”. The end doesn’t matter. It’s all about means. Will he shut down the government to force the wall? Will he be outrageous one day, “Presidential” the next, and then outrageous again? Will he pardon Sheriff Joe? Tune in next week to see what Trump does next. Same time (i.e, TWENTY-FOUR-SEVEN), same channel (i.e., EVERY CHANNEL)

    I’m exhausted from the reality show. But I’m an actual limited government conservative who always just wanted a boring, competent president.

  73. Tatterdemalian Says:

    The aristocracy has taken control of as many sources of information as they can. Now they use it to broadcast lies intended to rally mobs and extend their powers, both by killing opponents and by erasing any other competing sources of information (especially history).

    As usual when information sources can no longer be trusted, we are all once again reduced to only being able to trust our own eyes, ears, and memories, and even those can fail or be deceived.

  74. Bill Says:

    Stephen Ippolito

    I would be worried, Neo, if these were not the very same people whose tenuous insight into, and grip on, reality led them to acquiesce in Obama’s statement of July 2016 that: “There has never been any man or woman more qualified for this office than Hillary Clinton”.

    It pains me to even type such a lie. When and by whom has that atrocious untruth been called out?

    What unmitigated gall to utter such a bald-faced lie to so many millions of people;

    Stephen, doesn’t this go both ways? Obama’s statement is ridiculous, but it’s pretty much standard fare for a political season. It’s an opinion, I’m assuming a disingenuous one.

    But . . . you haven’t been following Trump? He has stated, multiple times, things like this (actual quotes): “No administration has accomplished more in the first 90 days.”, “Never has there been a president, with few exceptions — case of FDR, he had a major depression to handle — who has passed more legislation and who has done more things than what we’ve done,”

    These are both outrageous statements and easily disprovable.

  75. Stubbs Says:

    I’ve gone through stages in responding to leftist hysteria. Here in CA it is the overwhelmingly dominant tone, of course. I still have the urge to respond to the nonsense, especially when it comes from old friends, but instead I am now silencing the response, which would only elicit more hysteria, disbelief that I could disagree with them, etc., etc. I hope more people on the right stop objecting to the nonsense and just get on with what we want the government to do. There is more to life than arguing with these people.

  76. Sharon W Says:

    “Among the worst things Trump has modeled for the Republican party has been his incessant whining. The media is just Trump’s Emmanuel Goldstein (to hop on the 2 minutes hate theme from above). Every good authoritarian needs an enemy of the people. And oh, the whining of Republicans about the big, baaaad media.”
    I don’t know what your personal atmosphere is like Bill, but in my life, I’m not exposed to the “Republican whining” you are describing. I’m not much of a Facebook person, (37 close friends/family), but I check it everyday. I’ve had to “stop following” every Trump hater, but one, I keep, because I say a silent prayer for them all, every time he posts. He’s a “changer” the other way. When his 3rd wife (a knee-jerk liberal) came w/a million dollar retirement he became a cheerleader for all things Leftist. The Conservative Trump haters have uniformly only criticized other conservatives–never the Leftists. My youngest calls his brother to get his negative feelings regarding the hatred of Trump (he was a reluctant Trump supporter) off his chest. He now proudly professes that he is so glad he had changed his voter preference to Independent. So my own experience actually counters what you report as the worst thing that has happened.

  77. Sharon W Says:

    Amen, Stubbs! As a fellow Californian I too came to that place. My sons talk to each other to get what bothers them off their chests and leave it at that.

  78. DNW Says:

    “I’m exhausted from the reality show. But I’m an actual limited government conservative who …”

    But not a rule of law conservative.

    So, rest in peace thou notion of a program of limited government absurdly lacking an accompanying and unconditional commitment to the rule of law.

    Your own advocates have made you ridiculous, unto death.

  79. Sharon W Says:

    “As usual when information sources can no longer be trusted, we are all once again reduced to only being able to trust our own eyes, ears, and memories, and even those can fail or be deceived.”-Tatterdemalian

    I just said this same thing to someone yesterday. I think the final straw for me was the behavior of the FBI leading up to the election and since.

  80. DNW Says:

    “Conservative Trump haters have uniformly only criticized other conservatives–never the Leftists.”

    They seem to reserve their real indignation for those who rage against the assaults of the buggers, not those who are actually doing the buggering.

    Point in evidence, the ability of sensitive conservatives to so easily acclimate themselves to being turned into unwilling enablers of the moral atrocity and financial rape of Obamacare and its accompanying anti-liberty social premise.

    One comes to the inescapable conclusion that they really don’t mind it so much as long as we are “together”.

  81. Bill Says:

    Well, Sharon W, I was kind of referring to the comments thread on this blog as a source of a lot of victimhood and whining about the media 🙂

    And I think a lot of the people who comment here are capital folks. I just can’t understand the hopelessness (in the midst of a sweep of Republican victories) and the – what I consider not-based-in-reality – notion that “only Trump” could withstand the media barrage. I believe that he’s the cause of an awful lot of it. I think he, personally, loves the attention and I think the media loves it too. They did, after all, shill for him in the primaries, for ratings and because I thing they thought he’d be the weakest candidate to go against HRC.

    I think he’s doing irreparable damage to the Republican brand and philosophy of governance. But I’ve been plenty wrong before…

  82. DNW Says:

    On the last sentence of my last comment, I want to reinforce the point that the described attitude is in fact commonplace among so-called conservatives of a Rawlsian influenced sort.

    These would be conservatives who may be temperamentally resistant to certain kinds of change, but who along with Rawls judge that what the distributive justice republican social project is ultimately all about, is a commitment to a shared fate [as opposed to say reciprocity or the securing of liberty] as the first, or nearly the first associative principle in the firmament.

    And within this constellation of values, comes the twinkling point that man’s primary need and right, is, not liberty or autonomy, but the esteem of others and a feeling of place, if not welcome.

    No wonder conservatives have proven so useless in real fights.

  83. Sharon W Says:

    Bill I don’t share your perspective as the commenters being whiners. This is a place where we can share, air and confirm our footing without exposure to as Stubbs so aptly put it, “eliciting more hysteria”. A sort of catharsis. Since over time I went from a “news junkie” to a very limited exposure (Drudge, Neo, Ace–classical music on the radio at all times), this site keeps me abreast in a very positive way. But I will say, as charitably as possible–you whine about Trump, a lot (in almost every comment!)

  84. Bill Says:

    “But I will say, as charitably as possible–you whine about Trump, a lot (in almost every comment!)”

    Touche.

    I think I’d offer a correction: “In *every* comment”.

    Can I ask you a follow-up question? I’ve been wanting to engage an evangelical in this topic, and not everyone here is interested in it. Do you believe someone can be a good Christian and oppose Trump?

    This is an honest question. I, of course, have my own opinion but I’m interested in yours.

  85. DNW Says:

    If a confirmed liberal or (sensitive conservative for that matter) wished to debate the ontological status of values, theirs in particular, and to try and make a case that their own values objectively mandated universal respect and acquiescence – I am sure that half of those posting here would jump for joy at the chance to see to see such a liberal trying to ground and demonstrate their interpersonal claims against others in some absolute terms, rather than merely asserting them … on the flimsiest rhetorical pretexts.

    But we do not see that, because they cannot make such an argument, and do not believe it to be possible.

    And they themselves do not believe it to be possible because their own metaphysical beliefs would undercut any such project.

    So all they can do is engage in emotional appeals.

  86. Sharon W Says:

    Yes, including the word “every” was wrong. I’m not an evangelical, I’m a Catholic, but of course, my answer is “yes”. Cardinal John Henry Newman, an Anglican Bishop who became a Catholic, especially his work, Apologia Pro Vita Sua, help pave my way back to the Catholic Church 21 years ago, after 12 years in the evangelical church (Foursquare). One must be faithful to one’s conscience. Here is a link to the Catholic Catechism on the subject of conscience.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

  87. Bill Says:

    Thank you Sharon,

    It’s been interesting to watch the strong evangelical support for Trump. He’s not the kind of guy they usually would swing behind, from a “values” point of view, no? I realize now you aren’t an evangelical, so this isn’t exactly your “tribe”, but it’s my tribe and I’m on the 19% side, hence my interest. I’m trying to understand the mindset behind, for example, excoriating Clinton for his oval office debaucheries and other bimbo eruptions, but seemingly giving Trump a complete pass, even after revelations like the Access Hollywood tape.

  88. Bill Says:

    “Yes, including the word “every” was wrong.”

    No, the word you got wrong was “almost”. I own the fact that I do an awful lot of Trump bashing (or whining) in this space. “every comment” is pretty well spot on.

  89. Sharon W Says:

    I have close family members (son, daughter-in-law–whose father is a well-known, esteemed evangelical pastor of a large and wonderful church with a worldwide outreach). Quite frankly, the intelligence level of each of them is on the far higher side than the average evangelical. They are supporters of Trump (once he became the nominee) for the very same reasons I am.

  90. Bill Says:

    Sharon, same here. I know a lot of Trump supporters (and quite a few non-Trump supporters) in my family and set of friends.

    Thanks for the interaction!

  91. Sharon W Says:

    I would say they would explain their initial support in this way: if you need a surgery, you don’t select the surgeon based on his values, but instead, his ability. Once Trump became the nominee, for us, there were 2 possibilities for president (not binary choice, but binary outcome) and Trump was our obvious choice, especially on the basis of the proposed list of SC justice nominees. Also, because the pastor has connections to well-placed evangelicals that have been close to Trump (present in the Oval Office) there is much that goes unreported about the spiritual dimension. This is where what Tatterdemalian wrote about what one believes comes into play. My son and his family have had face-to-face conversations with people that have a relationship with Trump post election. Based on those conversations from trusted people, they hold a point-of-view that enhances their support beyond the original determination about choosing a surgeon.

  92. Matt_SE Says:

    One of my brothers is a NeverTrumper. He got burned taking one of Trump’s university real estate classes (showing poor judgment to begin with), and now he’s looking for any kind of revenge he can get. I’ve had to block two of his cell phone numbers to stop the torrent of daily rants.

  93. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    Bill, as an evangelical, I would say someone could be a good Christian and not support Trump.
    As long as they do not support someone that is a liberal, pro-abortion, pro-same-sex, etc.
    In other words, reflect your values with your vote.
    Even if Trump were not a Christian (which I do not know) if he espouses Biblical values, I’m in.
    You are aware of the “Cyrus” connotation?

  94. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    Bill again:
    “I think he’s doing irreparable damage to the Republican brand and philosophy of governance. But I’ve been plenty wrong before…”
    I actually think it’s McConnell, McCain et al, that are harming the brand, making not allowing Trump to ass needed legislation, make recess appointments, etc.

  95. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    Butchered that last phrase. Too much weld slag under the keyboard.

  96. Bill Says:

    “As long as they do not support someone that is a liberal, pro-abortion, pro-same-sex, etc.
    In other words, reflect your values with your vote.
    Even if Trump were not a Christian (which I do not know) if he espouses Biblical values, I’m in.
    You are aware of the “Cyrus” connotation?”

    Thank Ed.

    Here’s my question: do you think Trump is personally pro-life? I understand (and am happy about) the SC appointments, certainly. But what does he think in his gut?

    What specific Biblical values does he espouse?

    Does he espouse the values of truth and honesty? Does he believe in forgiveness? How about steadfastness and trustworthiness? Faithfulness in marriage? Can he be trusted as a business partner?

    Has he even read the Bible enough to know what it teaches?

    About the “Cyrus” thing – Trump is not Cyrus and he wasn’t sent by God to save America. At least I think it’s dangerous to make that assumption sans evidence. Yes, God sent Cyrus and without him there wouldn’t be Israel/Judaism/Christianity. But in scripture how often does God send a pagan king to bless his people versus the number of times he sends a bad ruler to judge his people?

    God is not mocked. And I realize I’m coming hard on this – but to see Christians all of a sudden finding new appreciation and obedience to Romans 13 that they never had during the past 8 years, and claiming that opposing the “king” is the same as opposing God . . . Consider the past 8 years and tell me if I’m just imagining the hypocrisy.

    Ultimately, it’s not Trump that’s the problem. I think Trump is just a symptom of how hollow our Christian understanding is and reflects a pretty large failure in the American church, and the typical mucking up of everything that happens when the church quits speaking truth into the culture and starts cozying up to politicians the way the American evangelical church has done for the last 3 or 4 decades.

    I’ll stop now that I’ve made even more friends and influenced even more people at this site…

  97. Bill Says:

    I actually think it’s McConnell, McCain et al, that are harming the brand, making not allowing Trump to [p]ass needed legislation, make recess appointments, etc.

    Well, our congress certainly isn’t winning any awards. But the reason Presidents get credit for the legislation that gets passed during their terms is because usually they’ve had to work at it. Trump made big promises about replacing Obamacare. He said it would be “so easy”. He wasn’t much help at all in getting it done. And he’s not a politician [and I mean that in a bad way] – he’s used to bullying, firing, and intimidating people to get what he wants. He’s way better at sticks than he is at carrots.

    Our federal system doesn’t work like Trump works. Can you think of one, or two, or maybe fifty reasons why John McCain doesn’t feel a lot of loyalty to Donald Trump? Beyond “McCain’s a RINO” I mean.

    Trump sold himself as a master dealmaker. So far he’s gotten us out of agreements, certainly. He’s probably done a few smaller agreements and arrangements. But he has yet to make the sale on something big in the area of legislation. He hasn’t shown himself to be particularly good at it. And – from my perspective at least – it doesn’t appear that he works very hard at it.

    What was his involvement in the Obamacare repeal/replace debacle, besides sitting on the sidelines and throwing rocks at people he desperately needs to get this legislation actually pushed through?

    He’s a master propagandist – hence the ongoing meme about how it’s not his fault and it’s really Ryan/McConnell’s failure. I’m not buying his propaganda. And I can’t imagine why those two are still putting up with this fecal matter being thrown at them. I suspect it’s because they are craven and spineless.

    He’s in danger of becoming a lame duck, legislatively, if he doesn’t turn things around.

  98. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    Bill, I go on the assumption that Trump is not “born again”.
    It’s safer that way 🙂
    “What specific Biblical values does he espouse?
    Does he espouse the values of truth and honesty? Does he believe in forgiveness? How about steadfastness and trustworthiness? Faithfulness in marriage? Can he be trusted as a business partner?”

    He has obviously exhibited, in the past, the opposite of those traits, on occasion. He recently said something about not needing forgiveness, not exactly Christianity.
    But I see an honesty in him, and he’s fighting the battle I want fought.
    I am one of those reluctant Trumpers. But I rejoice now in a lot of what I see.

  99. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    To your 6:49 pm, I cannot argue against that.

  100. Bill Says:

    Ed, fair enough.

    I’m not there, and may never be, but I appreciate the interaction. Thanks!

  101. Dave Says:

    I don’t know, offering to help the sick boy while no one else did sounds pretty Christian to me. How many times have we seen people coming out telling stories about how trump helped them when they in desperate need? to me trump looks more genuine than all of those lousy phone politicians who have done nothing for the people but enriching themselves.

  102. Dave Says:

    Obama left Otto to rot in North Korea while Trump took him home.

  103. Dave Says:

    Obama makes decisions based on how much compliments he will get while trump makes decisions based on how many people he will help.

  104. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    Dave, I’m not sure if you know this, forgive me if you do.
    Good works might be the hallmark of a Christian, but they are also that of Jew or a morally decent person.
    To an evangelical, recognition of inherent failure mode (sin) and trust in Christ alone for salvation is what makes a Christian.

  105. AesopFan Says:

    Sharon W Says:
    August 24th, 2017 at 3:52 pm
    I would say they would explain their initial support in this way: if you need a surgery, you don’t select the surgeon based on his values, but instead, his ability. Once Trump became the nominee, for us, there were 2 possibilities for president (not binary choice, but binary outcome) and Trump was our obvious choice, especially on the basis of the proposed list of SC justice nominees.
    * * *
    This.
    The entire discussion has been interesting and thought provoking (and courteous and civil: thank you thank you).

    Trump may not be Cyrus (the Jews didn’t know Cyrus was Cyrus until later), but given some of the exchanges above, especially about Trump’s multiple attested individual acts of charity and kindness, maybe this could apply:
    The Parable of the Two Sons
    Matthew 21:28-32New International Version (NIV)

    28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

    29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

    30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

    31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

    “The first,” they answered.

    Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

    * * *
    It kind of falls apart at the end, but who can really say what President Trump does or does not believe, or understand, about Christ and his gospel?

    I don’t think any of us really know which bucket we are in, and are going to be really surprised at the judgment.

    If you allow that God has some sense of karma (not quite humor, because of the seriousness), and if you will concede that, squish though he is, Romney was a better conservative choice than Obama, then I see something like this operating in re the vehement anti-Romney Christians in 2012, who wouldn’t let his character over-ride their conflicts about his church (and I also think it applies to the purists objecting to Trump’s primary opponents on one or another boutique delicacy, eg, “Cruz is too calculated” etc) morphing into Trump supporters, reluctant and enthusiastic both:

    “You wouldn’t take an honest, decent man because you didn’t agree with some of his beliefs, and allowed the Dems and Media to tar him unfairly; the only kind of person willing to stand against that barrage is this dishonest and somewhat sleazy man, with whom you also disagree.”

    Mark Steyn’s maxim applies: If the political culture forbids respectable politicians from raising certain issues, then the electorate will turn to unrespectable ones.

  106. Carol Says:

    @Bill 3:33 – I am not an evangelical, but I think I get it. Trump, unlike everyone on the left, poses no threat to their free exercise of their religious beliefs. I think that they are willing to overlook his personal shortcomings for this reason.

  107. Carol Says:

    @ Bill “These are both outrageous statements and easily disprovable.” Obama made such statements all the time- about the healthcare bill, before and after. He boasted constantly about the mediocre economy. He even, during his farewell tour, bragged about the success of his Syria policy!!!!!!! I questioned his sanity over that one, but came to the conclusion it was just another egregious lie. The difference was that the boot licking media went along with him and gave him cover.

  108. Bill Says:

    Carol, true and I’m not here to defend Obama. I was just pointing out that being offended by Obama’s lies (as the poster above was) while listening to and accepting Trump as he says things even more outrageous and disprovable (per my examples) .

  109. Bill Says:

    Trump just tweeted this out, just now

    “Few, if any, Administrations have done more in just 7 months than the Trump A. Bills passed, regulations killed, border, military, ISIS, SC!” – 25 Aug 2017 5:44am

    Why? Other than to propagandize those not paying attention, why does he do this?

    Trump supporters – is this statement true or false? I realize it’s somewhat in the realm of opinion. But it also can be objectively measured – number of bills passed. Number of regs killed. Border security changes. Supreme Court appts. Etc.

    I’m not saying he hasn’t made progress on some of those fronts. But he just claimed to be in the top echelon in these areas in Presidential history. Do you believe that?

    (his previous tweet right before this one was a complaint about not being able to pass bills because of the filibuster rule – which is it?)

  110. Dave Says:

    Why does bill spent so much time worrying about a career promoter engaging in some exaggerated advertising? Seriously did you question obama’s claim that Hillary was the most qualified person ever to run for president? Accomplishment is subjective, you might think trump is a loser but I think he is the greatest president ever, how dare you criticise my feeling? If you say we can’t criticise blacks feeling, we can’t question whether Obama is the greatest president ever because it is true as long as black people feel that way just because Obama is black, why can’t trump and his supporters believe he accomplished the most in 9 months ever? To you he accomplished nothing but to them he has accomplished a lot. Obama has divided the country so much I agreed wholeheartedly with scott adams that we are living in two realities

  111. Dave Says:

    Trump is merely doing what liberals have been doing for decades, nothing trump is doing is different from what Obama did, lying was obama’s biggest legacy and liberals like bill enjoyed every minute of it. Tell me how much lying was going on just with Hillary’s server? Lying is perfectly fine as long as democrats do it that is why all their claims of trump lying is not trustworthy and dishonest, since CNN lied so much with Obama and Hillary and all has been proven, how the hack can bill be sure that when CNN fact check trump they weren’t lying? It is not like CNN has any credibility.

  112. Dave Says:

    Trump must be doing a great job when the only things negative the msm can criticise of him are the made up Russia bullshlt and his tweets instead of his policies. Remember how his Muslim travel ban would lead to apocalypse according to the MSM? People working in CNN are all relatives of democrats, only stupid people would trust their critique of trump

  113. Bill Says:

    Dave, I’m not a democrat.

    If Trump is just “lying like Democrats” – um, isn’t that why we’re not Democrats?

    Trump is tweeting out objectively false statements. He does it all the time. This is what con men do. I’m not a mark.

    I hate propaganda, regardless of which side is delivering it. That’s where so-called “right wing media” went off. They started as a response to left wing biased/slanted reporting. But in the ensuing decades they’ve become a mirror image. Turns out we like being propagandized. I’m having none of it. We hate that politicians are dishonest. Well, how about we try electing some honest ones?

  114. Dave Says:

    Trump is awesome. Liberals think he is Merle, Conservatives see him as Daryl

  115. Dave Says:

    Perhaps I have been brainwashed but to me Trump is just very relatable. Very often in movies the most popular character in most series is the one who at first appears to be a mean selfish azzhole with an attitude problem but as the series goes on turns out later at critical moments to be an courage badazz with a heart of gold. Mad Max in the second movie is like that, Han Solo and Daryl Dixon are other examples, Trump reminds me of that kind of antihero character.

  116. Sharon W Says:

    “I don’t think any of us really know which bucket we are in, and are going to be really surprised at the judgment.”

    The most sobering passage in the scriptures for me is when Jesus says at the time of judgment there will be those to whom He says, “Depart from me you doers of evil. I never knew you.” He says this of people who outwardly show the “signs of the believer”. So I share with you, your opinion that we will be REALLY SURPRISED at the judgment. At the same time, as a believer in salvation as a gift through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, I trust in the promises of God among them “…He will make his servants to stand.” Faith in God is what impresses Jesus while he was on earth. Lack of faith incited his anger and disgust.

  117. chuck Says:

    Trump is tweeting out objectively false statements. He does it all the time. This is what con men do. I’m not a mark.

    It’s also what competitive athletes do. I’m thinking Trump is a trash talker, you’ve seen them before. The real question is, what is he like in making decisions? We don’t know, although I’ve been encouraged by some of his appointments.

  118. Dave Says:

    The only way to find out if you are lucky is to buy a lottery ticket, the only way to find out if your heart is health is to workout, and the only way to find out if free speech still exist is to say something offensive.

  119. Julia Says:

    Bill,

    Devout Catholic here.

    All things being equal, I would prefer to support someone espousing (and living, if possible) my Christian values.

    However, I’m not a cardinal voting for the Pope here, I was voting for the head of government. I “put not my faith in princes”. We’re all fallen individuals in a sin-sick world.

    I’ve been horrified at the moral degenerates put forth by the Dems, by the positions they hold and the values they cherish. Is Trump someone who is a good Christian? Perhaps in comparison, and that’s what matters.

    My religious outlook stressed the fact that Trump was much friendlier to religious liberty (Little Sisters of the Poor) and to the pro-life movement. Does he personally support these issues 100%? I have no idea, but he has been better than many of our Republicans that are in the public eye.

  120. Ymar Sakar Says:

    To OC, the Founding Fathers also were at risk of being raided and captured for meeting together and plotting their little pseudo rebellion. But if they had refused to do so…. would anyone in the 13 colonies have been ready or would they have just sat around, waiting to be disarmed and then neutralized.

    Talking online has a defensive value higher than talking to co workers, family, or people on the street. It is why Hussein gave the internet over to foreigners to regulate. They have understood where the root of the rebellion is. The FBI are watching the domestic militias like a hawk.

    As for Bill’s comments, Bill’s situation is little different from the super majority of commenters here from before 2008 and 2012. I know because I noticed and paid attention. If someone had said here, back then, that the Left needed to be obliterated, there might have been 1 or 2 who would have written that, but not more than 5 that would have agreed. And of the 5, zero would have actually admitted it in public.

    So bill is only out of step here because he arrived late to the party. But compared to me, almost everybody arrived late compared to how early I arrived…

    Some christians think Trum is born again, so they justify their voting based upon this. It’s a kind of rationalization, makes people feel good. Trum himself said that he had nothing to repent of. That is in line with evangelical mega churches or Hussein’s church. So long as you are a “winner”, you have no regrets and it doesn’t matter how many ruthless/bad things you did.

    As for Dave, using the MSM as your standard and Hollywood as your viewport, if that doesn’t make you a victim of propaganda, I would have a hard time imagining what would.

    Also to Sharon, that line doesn’t make sense.

    “Depart from me you doers of evil. I never knew you.”

    If a mortal avatar of a omniscient god said that, then why would he be omniscient? It would make more sense if he said “you never knew me”.

    Perhaps further evidence that human translators “corrupted” the bible over time. If the key foundation stone is corrupted, it would be natural that Christianity is merely a shadow of its former self in 1st century AD.

    As for the general reactions on this thread, I am not sure how to react to it. I suppose it should please me that many people are reacting as I did in 2007. You know, figuring out how evil the Left is and how ruthless one’s actions must be to counter the Left. You know, like deleting news sources from my feed to cut down on my exposure to Leftist poison, what people call CNN and facebook.

    I should be happy right? Except that was 10 years ago. I’m advanced beyond that. When will people catch up? Because if they don’t catch up… the Leftist alliance is going to be a little hard to beat. There’s something even more powerful afterwards that they will be forced to fight.

  121. AesopFan Says:

    Tytler Cycle

    Not actually by Tytler, but attributed to him.
    I don’t really care who said it first (although it’s strange that many people never want to take credit for original wisdom; after that, few question the fake attribution because the “argument from authority” takes over).
    Anyhoo,
    Looks like a good description of the rise and decline of nations to me.
    Also fits with the Bible and other scriptures.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler,_Lord_Woodhouselee

    The following quotation has been attributed to Tytler, although it has also been occasionally attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville:[12]
    A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
    The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.
    This text was popularized as part of a longer piece commenting on the 2000 U.S. presidential election, which began circulating on the Internet during or shortly after the election’s controversial conclusion.[13]
    There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler’s having written any part of the text.[13] In fact, it actually comprises two parts which didn’t begin to appear together until the 1970s. The first paragraph’s earliest known appearance[14] is in an op-ed piece by Elmer T. Peterson in the 9 December 1951 The Daily Oklahoman, which attributed it to Tytler:…
    The list beginning “From bondage to spiritual faith” is commonly known as the “Tytler Cycle” or the “Fatal Sequence”. Its first known appearance was in a 1943 speech by Henning W. Prentiss, Jr.,

  122. AesopFan Says:

    Sharon W Says:
    August 24th, 2017 at 8:22 am

    “No, The Other Chuck, my adjusting happened during the 8 years of Bush’s presidency when he was incessantly referred to as Hitler and our efforts to battle the Islamists were undermined by the MSM, the Democrats and even our own government. … Because he was our nominee, I voted for Trump for 2 reasons, SC justices and “not Hillary”. I have never felt the need to defend him–if he acts the ass and there is a reason for me to say so, I will. I spent 8 years defending Bush to all the liberals around me, no point in playing that game again.”

    Well said.

  123. AesopFan Says:

    Sharon W Says:
    August 24th, 2017 at 11:56 am
    The Leftists are driving the bus of the “new normal”, i.e., designation of “racist” if you oppose processing everything through the lens of race… The foundational values I have been raised with and personally see as the source of good are under fire, but that hasn’t altered my commitment to them. Just as personal hardships I have experienced have deepened my faith, not depleted it; proved it, not undermined it–I will seek the good that only God can bring out of this present morass. As a student of history I am quite aware of the tribulation that may transpire, but as a person that believes “God is in control”, I will trust for the ultimate good in the long run.”

    Yes.
    Cliche as it may be, there is something bracing in the popular modern distilling of the prophecies of Christ:
    “I never promised you it would be easy; I promised you it would be worth it.”

  124. AesopFan Says:

    Dave Says:
    August 24th, 2017 at 7:24 pm
    Obama left Otto to rot in North Korea while Trump took him home.
    * *
    This and the other hostage rescues actually counted for a lot with me.
    Whether Trump did it from conviction, compassion, or calculation, at least he DID it.

  125. AesopFan Says:

    Carol Says:
    August 24th, 2017 at 10:16 pm
    @Bill 3:33 – I am not an evangelical, but I think I get it. Trump, unlike everyone on the left, poses no threat to their free exercise of their religious beliefs. I think that they are willing to overlook his personal shortcomings for this reason.
    * * *
    Good point.

  126. AesopFan Says:

    Dave Says:
    August 25th, 2017 at 11:28 am
    Perhaps I have been brainwashed but to me Trump is just very relatable. Very often in movies the most popular character in most series is the one who at first appears to be a mean selfish azzhole with an attitude problem but as the series goes on turns out later at critical moments to be an courage badazz with a heart of gold. Mad Max in the second movie is like that, Han Solo and Daryl Dixon are other examples, Trump reminds me of that kind of antihero character.
    * *
    You and Scott Adams — always watching the movies!
    (It’s also a very valid literary critique, if this was a movie.)
    ((Which it might be, if we are all constructs in the galactic AI consciousness.))

  127. AesopFan Says:

    Sharon W Says:
    August 25th, 2017 at 12:27 pm
    …Faith in God is what impresses Jesus while he was on earth. Lack of faith incited his anger and disgust.
    * * *
    I have always thought it interesting that he has a lot of criticism for the hard-headed and cold-hearted, but very seldom actually talks “doctrine” in the seminarian-theologian manner.
    It doesn’t get much simpler than his phrasing of the greatest and second greatest commandments.

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    To quote one of His servants:

    Micah 6:8
    8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
    * * *
    Sometimes we just make things too complicated.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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